#indiewebcamp 2014-07-03

2014-07-03 UTC
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tantek willnorris - oh shoot ok I'll license just the newbase60 stuff cc0
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gRegor` That did it. Thanks, kylewm!
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gRegor` kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 21 karma
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kylewm :]
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gRegor` Revisiting some of my earliest wm code. Didn't have a very good grasp of mf2 :)
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gRegor` I was wondering why I got back "this page" as an in-reply-to URL
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@shermandorn This--> "learning to edit config files is good for you. But so is hanging out with my family" http://hapgood.us/2014/07/02/indiewebcamp/ @holden (twitter.com/_/status/484489736908591106)
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@schnarfed @jasongreen you might also be interested in https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress (twitter.com/_/status/484490735610122240)
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jden how does one get into mozsf?
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snarfed ping here and/or knock loud on the front door, tantek's usually there
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kylewm whoa dang, brendan eich retweeted ben's event post
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kylewm oh tantek's post, that makes more sense
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@jasongreen @timmmmyboy indieweb-press-this . I see files in cpanel w same perms as other plugins (twitter.com/_/status/484511232242626560)
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tantek … fmu.name, working on a startup called Matter, no relation to Matter VC, working on a product called Dark Matter
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tantek HWC SF: Jason - jden.us
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tantek … recently registered jden.is presaging his flight to Iceland
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tantek … working on IndieFinger - trying to bring webfinger back
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tantek … is actually going to help kill webfinger, because no one publishes in webfinger
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tantek … but the notion of metadata around urls is useful for oither projects, so starting there
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tantek … first time at HWC, but was at IndieWebCamp 2014 in Portland.
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @_jden: I'm bring back webfinger with indiefinger, which uses other formats as no-one publishes webfinger (twitter.com/_/status/484514502306971648)
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@jasongreen @timmmmyboy Here's the description. https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress It calls it a plugin, (twitter.com/_/status/484514579460812801)
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tantek HWC SF: Walter, walteryu.com
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tantek … background in civil engineering
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tantek … do programming related to work
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek … uses site for technical note keeping
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tantek … motivated to improve his site beyond Bluehost
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tantek … using Wordpress now
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tantek … came because Rya said to come
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tantek s/Rya/Ryan
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Loqi tantek meant to say: … came because Ryan said to come
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tantek HWC SF: Dave Doolin, wants to get the love back on the web, on his short domain dool.in
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tantek … WordPress refugee, coding in Rails now
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tantek … background in computational mechanics and civil engineering
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tantek … dool.in is a static site
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@timmmmyboy @jasongreen Need to download zip at https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this and extract to folder in plugins. (twitter.com/_/status/484515401968390145)
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KartikPrabhu go science people!
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KartikPrabhu errr engineering ;)
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tantek HWC SF: Gordon - this is my first HWC
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tantek … I work for Mozilla
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tantek … remote out of Colorado most of the time
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KevinMarksAtMozi apparently mozilla blocks my irc client :(
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tantek … UX enginer
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tantek s/enginer/engineer
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Loqi tantek meant to say: … UX engineer
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tantek … my own website is a piece of crap right now
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tantek … working on a revision to it
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tantek … using a static site generator called blacksmith or metalsmith
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tantek … got sick of wordpress which kept me from publishing
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KevinMarksAtMozi URL?
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tantek … trying something simple with markdown files
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tantek … gordonbrander.com
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tantek … but don't pull it up
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tantek … it looked beautiful
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tantek … but then I accidentally did the publish thing
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@_jden RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @_jden: I'm bring back webfinger with indiefinger, which uses other formats as no-one publishes webfinger (twitter.com/_/status/484515801550958593)
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tantek … on my static site generator
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tantek … so it looks ugly
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tantek … and it was not in version control
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KartikPrabhu gordonbrander: love the colour palette collection. wanted to do that myself but never happend!
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KevinMarksAtMozi we just showed gordon marginalia and he loved it
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KartikPrabhu nice! :D
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KevinMarksAtMozi also Lonnie (who is working on medical search and references) was very impressed with what it makes possible for annotation
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KartikPrabhu :D I want to do this for scientific papers but those things are written in horrible stuff like Latex and PDFs!
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KevinMarksAtMozi so are medical things. munging PDF into HTML is part of the interesting problme space
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KartikPrabhu Mozilla just open sources their JS that does PDF to HTML, but expectedly the ouput is not semantic in any sense
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @gordonbrander: I have my own site at http://gordonbrander.com but don't look at it because I deployed accidentally (twitter.com/_/status/484519153119027200)
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KartikPrabhu lol! KevinMarksAtMozi ^
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@doolin RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @gordonbrander: I have my own site at http://gordonbrander.com but don't look at it because I deployed accidentally (twitter.com/_/status/484519378398892032)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: OK, go to [secret URL on my domain] and click the link [text arrives] (twitter.com/_/status/484519651872079872)
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@kevinmarks #indieweb @t: OK, go to [secret URL on my domain] and click the link @lonnierae: types something [text arrives] (twitter.com/_/status/484520121214697472)
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@LonnieRae RT @kevinmarks: #indieweb @t: OK, go to [secret URL on my domain] and click the link @lonnierae: types something [text arrives] (twitter.com/_/status/484523300177989634)
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@jasongreen @schnarfed Got indieweb-press-this installed but it doesn't seem to be putting in the hidden brid.gy link. (twitter.com/_/status/484523414200127489)
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aaronpk missed this from hapgood's article before.... "Ward highlighted for me how schemas — and particularly tight, locked-down database schemas — had killed user innovation."
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aaronpk add that to database-antipattern?
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aaronpk needs context to understand it
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npdoty sorry I couldn't be there tonight
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npdoty but just wanted to say that I read @aaronpk on IndieAuth with PGP and it took only a moment to add link rel="pgpkey" to my homepage and test it successfully
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npdoty which is awesome, thanks for implementing that
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aaronpk awesome!
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aaronpk glad to hear it
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npdoty also, it's nice that the rel (and your implementation) support having the text of the key hosted somewhere else
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npdoty so, for example, people who use keybase can just point to the ascii version hosted over there
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tantek yay for pieces loosely joined!
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npdoty indeed.
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walteryu.com edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+34) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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dool.in edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+31) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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walteryu.com created /User:Walteryu.com (+355) "Created page with "<p class="h-card"> <img class="u-photo" src="http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100913232841/pacman/images/4/47/Pac-man-ghosts.jpg" alt="" /> <a class="p-name u-url" href="..."" (view diff)
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2014-183-hwc-sf.jpg]]""
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tantek.com moved /File:2014-183-hwc-sf.jpg to /File:hwc-2014-183-sf.jpg
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+108) "7/16, 7/30" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+89) "/* Photos */ SF photo" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+3708) "Initial event" (view diff)
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Loqi please verify venues for SF, Portland.
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+0) "/* Upcoming */ +7/16" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Events (+1032) "/* 2014 */ mv 7/2" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Main_Page (+0) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ 7/16" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: just enabled img with src in comments! UI marginalia away! :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: awesome!!!
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tantek showed off your great work at HWC SF tonight
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tantek minds were blown
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tantek :D
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tantek KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 40 karma
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KartikPrabhu stoked! :D
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jden yeah it was pretty rad
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KartikPrabhu thanks jden! feel free to try to break it :)
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jden the question of threaded comments and comments on comments came up- does webmention forward things on? eg C mentions B which mentioned A, does A know about C?
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KartikPrabhu jden: A can choose to know about C by parsing the microformats on the page B
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KartikPrabhu and then displaying sub-comments
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jden in practice that doesnt sound like it's gonna happen
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jden certainly not on a timeframe that would enable meaningful threaded discussion
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KartikPrabhu I don't want to have sub-comments as they are not scalable
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KartikPrabhu as in how many levels deep should I go?
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KartikPrabhu the good thing about indie-comments is that they have their own URL which then has its own comments and all that
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jden i'm on my phone right now so cant go into detail
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jden but lets discuss this sometime
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KartikPrabhu sure thing!
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gRegor` Re: sub-comments https://xen-orchestra.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/1386271588578.jpg
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KartikPrabhu Who, me?
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gRegor` No, Loqi
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Loqi dude
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gRegor` sweet
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Possible webmention authorship scenario a la checkmention: Site A is a multi-author site and the article links to the author's personal site B. Not sure how to get around it, since the author is unlikely to link to Site A with a rel-me
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KartikPrabhu aah! good point
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gRegor` Something like Huffington Post
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KartikPrabhu hmm no wait
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KartikPrabhu suppose A is multi-author site that sends me a webmention. I'll check that source=A.com and the h-entry u-url = A.com too
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KartikPrabhu I am not comparing the site and the author page
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KartikPrabhu the only false negatives to this would be proxy services
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gRegor` I'm referring to author spoofing
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gRegor` different h-card u-url
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm let me look at that mention again
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gRegor` As unlikely as it may be (currently)
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gRegor` https://checkmention.appspot.com/content/146f99c5eba/23d3b2dc96ff28d34dab84caeee22166f5564755/identity
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yup! you are correct.
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KartikPrabhu I wonder if anyone at all does this!
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gRegor` The only way to verify if that's really Jonny Ive would be if there was a rel-me back to that URL, from his apple.com profile, or some as-yet-undefined (?) "delegation"
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gRegor` "I've written these pieces that appear on other sites."
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gRegor` Which I could see happening with journalists.
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KartikPrabhu yeah like that
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KartikPrabhu hmmm complicated!
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gRegor` I might be thinking too far ahead, of course. :)
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KartikPrabhu so the Jony Ive test does 2kinds of spoofing. It does a post-identity spoof and also an author-spoof
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gRegor` post-identity?
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KartikPrabhu the u-url of the post is not checkmention
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JonathanNeal hello
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KartikPrabhu hi!
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gRegor` Ohh. Tricksy
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KartikPrabhu yup! that is a damn good test
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KartikPrabhu kbs++ for checkmention
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Loqi kbs has 10 karma
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gRegor` Hi, JonathanNeal. How goes webmention?
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JonathanNeal Just getting back to it.
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JonathanNeal I’m also now interested in site authentication. At first I was looking at xhr.withCredentials but this is unsupported in IE9, which puts a wrench in finding something easily adoptable.
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JonathanNeal As I understand it, some website scans your website, finds a service it mentions, and then asks that service if you are logged in.
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JonathanNeal If this is how it works, then it means we trust, in order 1. some site to accurately read ours without compromise, 2. our site to accurately return some third party service without compromise, and 3. some third party service to return our logged in state without compromise.
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JonathanNeal If I am right in this understanding, I see no reason not to let my own website authenticate me, say, with a JSONP call to /whoami.js that executes whoami(my_data) or requires whatever further authentication methods I prefer for my own site. I control the blanket or selective whitelisting of other sites, etc.
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JonathanNeal Is there an indie authentication protocol like this?
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: you might want to look at IndieAuth http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth
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kylewm JonathanNeal: indieauth doesn't have any sort of persistent "logged in" state, as far as I know
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: the persistance is on the side of the authenticator not IndieAuth i think
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kylewm gotcha
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JonathanNeal Also absorbing http://blog.teamtreehouse.com/how-to-create-bulletproof-sessions
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@hmans @halfbyte webfinger and webmention have been on my radar, yes. (twitter.com/_/status/484577902198259712)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: you seem to trying a lot of things at once ;)
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JonathanNeal Yes :|
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: a question pertaining to marginalia.js stuff. Is <button> allowed inside <p> according to HTML valid rules?
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JonathanNeal Yes.
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KartikPrabhu I see. so only <ol> stuff won't be allowed
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JonathanNeal Basically, if it’s not block, it’s allowed.
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KartikPrabhu I see cool! thanks. might move the block thingie right after the <p>. that might help some of the CSS weirdness I get too
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: out of curiosity - are you aiming to completely indiewebify your site? or only get some bits like webmention working?
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JonathanNeal completely indiewebify
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JonathanNeal My problem is that I tinker.
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KartikPrabhu everyone here is a tinkerer! It probably is a good idea to sort out priorities... maybe this helps: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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KartikPrabhu it is a list of "levels" on different axes for indiewebsites to get working
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KartikPrabhu note that all the axes are more or less independent. For instance I am not "search level 2" but I am "security level 4" or something
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KartikPrabhu alos a helpful step-by-step guide with verification: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/
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@vrypan RT @benwerd: Rushing the street: building our #indieweb business http://werd.io/2014/rushing-the-street-building-our-indieweb-business (twitter.com/_/status/484594062398586880)
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@vrypan RT @benwerd: The many generations of #indieweb. Lots of people are joining generation 2 now: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (twitter.com/_/status/484594264815702017)
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@kevinmarks RT @benwerd: The many generations of #indieweb. Lots of people are joining generation 2 now: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (twitter.com/_/status/484596261698297859)
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@dangillmor I'm a Gen 2 RT @benwerd: The many generations of #indieweb. Lots of people are joining generation 2 now: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (twitter.com/_/status/484597122537635842)
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gregorlove.com edited /silo-quits (+615) "/* Silo quitters 2014 */ +Chuq Von Rospac" (view diff)
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@webdirections Christy Dena became a citizen of the IndieWeb, and you can too! http://www.christydena.com/2014/07/i-am-a-citizen-of-the-indieweb-d/ (twitter.com/_/status/484600043853606913)
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@brennannovak RT @benwerd: The many generations of #indieweb. Lots of people are joining generation 2 now: http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (twitter.com/_/status/484601817092091904)
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@decarola Inizia il viaggio in direzione #indieweb summit, finalmente. Devo riuscire a scrivere sul blog, dannazione. (twitter.com/_/status/484622659213623296)
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Loqi bnvk: binbasti left you a message 1 day ago: yes, that'd be great. i was traveling a lot during the last couple of days, but i should be more available again next week latest
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bnvk !tell binbasti: cool, let's touch base next week then, my traveling & conf speaking whirlwind is just starting :P
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message on 6/30 at 8:56am: hope you can make it this Wednesday evening @MozSF! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club
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@kevinmarks RT @dangillmor: I'm a Gen 2 RT @benwerd: The many generations of #indieweb. Lots of people are joining generation 2 now: http://t.co/RnrBBg… (twitter.com/_/status/484633204079329281)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/484633204079329281 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/484634511079399424 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/484634649084588032 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/484636130306822146 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/dangillmor/484597122537635842/14463329 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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tommorris how we win - simple UX: https://twitter.com/marcbubb/status/484623225062969345
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Loqi [@marcbubb] Simple #UX "Here you go Grandma..."
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pdurbin tommorris: that's awesome
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Loqi [mention] http://edumio.com/?p=3202 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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@ThatSamu @Garage_227 @GameDevRobot that's why there's awesome people who make stuff like this template: https://github.com/savethejets/indieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/484692772054921216)
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voxpelli pfefferle: released a new version of the WebMention Testpinger yesterday – with some added colors and such – any feedback on whether it became better or worse is welcome :)
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pfefferle voxpelli oh nice, will test it asap
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pfefferle voxpelli looks very nice! the colors makes it the output more clear!
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voxpelli pfefferle: thought so as well :) It became especially cluttered when I added the timestamps in there otherwise
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pfefferle voxpelli do you have any plans for the verbose feature and/or the delete/update stuff?
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voxpelli pfefferle: no concrete plans at the moment – the delete/update stuff will at least happen when my endpoint starts supporting it
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voxpelli I'm currently working on extending other parts of my endpoint
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pfefferle voxpelli no test driven developement? ;)
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voxpelli pfefferle: unfortunately not ;) It's one of my big points on my list right now: Get automated tests of the endpoint up so that I can discover when I break things – would likely have to be integration tests like these ones rather than unit tests
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pfefferle voxpelli will use your endpoint on my openwebicons site soon… as feedback tool…
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voxpelli pfefferle: nice!
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tommorris.org edited /why (+772) "/* Censorship */ Instagram and Facebook, we're watching" (view diff)
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bnvk pfefferle: what openwebicons site?
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pfefferle bnvk http://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/
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bnvk pfefferle: nice
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bnvk I take it, one can "add" to it fairly easy?
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pfefferle bnvk what do you mean by ”žadd to it“?
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bnvk add icons to it
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bnvk namely, PGP / open security protocol icons
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bnvk I'm trying to proliferate some standard icon ideas for encryption / signature state
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pfefferle bnvk ah, got it. I have not discovered an ideal way to contibute to the project yet, but feel free to open an issue and/or provide an svg if you have some ideas
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bnvk ok
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bnvk i'll give it some thought
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bnvk really great work tho :)
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tommorris.org edited /Instagram (+466) "/* Criticism */ adding examples of censorship" (view diff)
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pfefferle bnvk thanks :)
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tommorris.org edited /why (+680) "/* Personalisation/filter bubble */ another day, another reason to gasp at Facebook's chutzpah" (view diff)
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pfefferle bnvk thanks for tweeting/apping about it :)
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pfefferle !tell bnvk thanks for tweeting/apping about it :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi bnvk: pfefferle left you a message 19 minutes ago: thanks for tweeting/apping about it :)
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GWG pfefferle, I saw the icons you linked to.
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pfefferle GWG I also started a wordpress plugin
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pfefferle for the icons
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GWG Any site using the icon set for me to see?
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pfefferle not really… only the project page ;)
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pfefferle GWG let me know if you find any…
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GWG I like the idea.
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GWG I wonder if some of them would be recognized by a mainstream user.
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pfefferle GWG https://sopler.net/home is using it (the cc icons and the share icon)
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GWG pfefferle, I, as always, appreciate your efforts.
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pfefferle GWG thanks ;)
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GWG I am thinking of sending a pull request when I get to it for a webmentions count function.
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GWG I wrote one while at IWC
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pfefferle GWG ok cool
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GWG pfefferle, it would be my first.
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pfefferle GWG :)
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@mapkyca @benwerd Once the webmention client is patched, we can make the social graph orders of magnitude harder to surveil too. *waves at NSA* (twitter.com/_/status/484726785389887489)
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@decarola Adoro Brighton [nuovo post] http://blog.ops.is/2014/07/03/indietech-indieweb-e-indiephone/ (twitter.com/_/status/484736063144210432)
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www.dentonjacobs.com created /User:Www.dentonjacobs.com (+43) "Creating initial page." (view diff)
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www.dentonjacobs.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+26) "/* RSVP */ Denton RSVPing" (view diff)
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@scottros The IndieWeb and the Respect Network: 2 approaches to decentralizing our network http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ new post at Wordyard (twitter.com/_/status/484740198333288448)
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jden has anyone done POSSE for github issues yet?
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@docfreeride RT @scottros: The IndieWeb and the Respect Network: 2 approaches to decentralizing our network http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ new post at Wordyard (twitter.com/_/status/484742730195542017)
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@wordyard IndieWeb and Respect Network: Two roads to decentralizing the network: Here are two noteworthy projects for re... http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/484742985234407426)
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tantek jden - I think maybe barnabywalters has
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@dentonjacobs Just RSVPed for the next Homebrew Website Club meeting. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club I have a lot to learn (http://www.dentonjacobs.com/t4Wu1) (twitter.com/_/status/484744114089779201)
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@dentonjacobs Just RSVPed for the next Homebrew Website Club meeting. http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club I have a lot to learn (http://www.dentonjacobs.com/t4Wu1/) (twitter.com/_/status/484744417463771136)
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JonathanNeal Hurray! I have a login on http://jonneal.com/
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tantek JonathanNeal: congrats
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+401) "SF back at Quip, Minneapolis has a tentative time & place for this meetup, RSVP for SF but late" (view diff)
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tantek jden: not barnaby, sorry, but aaronpk is manually POSSEing comments on github issues from his own site! http://indiewebcamp.com/github#POSSE_to_GitHub
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jden tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 45 karma
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tantek if you know of any other examples of POSSEing to Github, please add to that section of the wiki!
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jden it's something i want to work on. i've got this crazy plan to use gists to bootstrap my notes.jden.us page (as a backing store), then using that to POSSE github issues, and then ultimately developing something to move away from gists that's self-hosted
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jden i'll update the wiki as i go.
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JonathanNeal That’s awesome.
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tantek jden - love it
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@camworld IndieWeb and Respect Network: Two roads to decentralizing the network http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ (twitter.com/_/status/484747150803226624)
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gRegor` Whoa, Chicago has a new HWC attendee RSVPing!
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tantek.com created /User:Jden.us (+294) "stub with an h-card and what he's working on per irc" (view diff)
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tantek jden, there you go, started off your user page with your plan: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Jden.us :)
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tantek (you'll notice that many of us have "Working On" and "Itches" sections on our user pages with collections of these things)
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tantek gRegor`: yeah! better get on there and RSVP as well!
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gRegor` !tell KartikPrabhu We have a new HWC attendee! Do you know Denton Jacobs? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Yeah, going to send a "hello" note as well.
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tantek.com edited /User:Jden.us (+60) "cite irc" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+27) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/dentonjacobs/484744417463771136/2788841 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek !tell aaronpk,tommorris is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris tantek: possibly with a little URL hackery
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Loqi tommorris: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+154) "/* working on */ updating CASSIS NewBase60 to CC0 for willnorris" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris - use-case: I want to link to "changes to the wiki on this day" on every Homebrew Website Club meetup page, so anyone looking at an archived event can go see pages were "active" immediately before/during/after the meeting.
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tantek likely useful once we start writing up summaries
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tantek (again)
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gRegor` Oh, nice. Denton Jacobs is already posting mf2 articles and notes on his site. https://www.dentonjacobs.com/2014/07/03/first-homebrew-club-rsvp/
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tommorris tantek: only problem I can think of is that the RecentChanges table is only kept for a certain period
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tommorris the job queue discards old recent changes entries.
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tommorris tantek: for IWC, the answer might be to find (or write) a MediaWiki extension that uses the revision table rather than the recentchanges table
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/dentonjacobs/484744417463771136/484749325910568960 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tommorris (or derive the changes from the IRC log)
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gRegor` tantek tommorris: aaronpk is generating that email weekly (?) of new pages / recent changes, so that could probably be adapted.
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tommorris tantek: the reasoning is a weird Wikipedia optimisation - the recentchanges feed on Wikipedia has *so much stuff* in it that it uses a separate database table to hold just the last X days worth of changes rather than the whole revision log
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tommorris gRegor`, tantek: the data is all there, it’s just MediaWiki exposes it slightly odd for Wikipedianish reasons. ;)
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gRegor` Yeah
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gRegor` I'm not sure if aaronpk's implementation of that is generating static content or querying the database each time. I think the former.
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tantek gRegor`: good point! that content should at least be available at a URL - not just in email :)
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tantek aaronpk ^^^
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tommorris a permalog extension is probably worth building, but… eeww, MediaWiki+PHP
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gRegor` I think it is a URL, but I forget where.
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gRegor` Heh
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week-in-the-indieweb
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gRegor` Archives http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/
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tantek cool!
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@jackappleby Testing transmat.io #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/484752422389444608)
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tantek wow we are a busy bunch
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tommorris on the indieweb front, this week I have been trying to work out how exactly I’m going to publish photos on my own site
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gregorlove.com created /twii (+39) "redirect" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris: has /photo helped?
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gregorlove.com created /TWII (+39) "redirect" (view diff)
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gRegor` what is TWII?
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Loqi This Week in the IndieWeb is a weekly digest of activities of the IndieWebCamp community http://indiewebcamp.com/twii
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tommorris tantek: not so much, more CSS and workflow and hosting I’ve been trying to sort out
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tommorris perhaps we need photo-brainstorming so I can braindump
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tantek definitely
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tommorris irritations thus far: Amazon S3 does not have any post-upload callback
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tommorris being able to simply dump photos into an S3 bucket and then get a POST callback that triggers things going would be amazingly useful, but alas no.
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tantek oh that's too bad
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tantek yes that kind of thing would be VERY valuable to capture on /photo-brainstorming
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tommorris http://paulstamatiou.com/photos/ is an excellent example of how to do photos-on-your-own-site well.
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tommorris.org edited /photos (+26) "/* See Also */ redlinking [[photo brainstorming]]" (view diff)
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tantek interesting. perhaps add to /photos as an Example?
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@gRegorLove @marcymarcy Might want to talk to you in the near future about Homebrew Website Club meetups @ The Living Room: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/484756166204215297)
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@marihuertas @gRegorLove @marcymarcy This would be a convergence of awesomeness. @t + friends are teaching + doing great things with @indiewebcamp. (twitter.com/_/status/484757389628166144)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/484756166204215297/484757389628166144 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/484756166204215297/484757024379764736 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/484756166204215297/18295618 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kylewm when folks got set up with a site at HWC last night, what host did they use? (out of curiosity)
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snarfed kylewm: the two tantek mentioned were friends of mine who already had a decent start. one on self-hosted wp, one on a homegrown static generator
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snarfed their main progress was working through indiewebify.me - rel-me, mf2, webmentions, etc
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snarfed http://walteryu.com/ and http://dool.in/
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tommorris.org created /photo_brainstorming (+2226) "started page" (view diff)
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kylewm snarfed: that's great!
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gRegor` !tell KartikPrabhu I contact my friend Marcy about possible having HWC at The Living Room space. It's further away from you, unfortunately. http://wearepolymathic.com/events/ Will keep you posted, though.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/484756166204215297/484764637817077761 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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kylewm does using other indiewebbers' tools qualify as "dogfooding"?
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kylewm (was looking at lightweight CSS frameworks and stumbled on https://github.com/brennannovak/Rebar/)
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@rena_tom what is the 'indieweb'? is this a new, old thing? (twitter.com/_/status/484769996539572224)
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@jamshid RT @scottros: The IndieWeb and the Respect Network: 2 approaches to decentralizing our network http://www.wordyard.com/2014/07/03/indieweb-and-respect-network-two-roads-to-decentralizing-the-network/ new post at Wordyard (twitter.com/_/status/484770230879539201)
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@rena_tom am i indieweb? are you? (twitter.com/_/status/484771064728133632)
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tantek !tell gRegor`,KartikPrabhu even if it's just you two - please take a group photo at every HWC Chicago and upload to the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload and embed in the event page like even we did at the first MSP meetup! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: gRegor` left you a message 2 hours, 7 minutes ago: We have a new HWC attendee! Do you know Denton Jacobs? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club
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tantek.com created /User:Crystalbeasley.com (+80) "stub with an h-card" (view diff)
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: gRegor` left you a message 54 minutes ago: I contact my friend Marcy about possible having HWC at The Living Room space. It's further away from you, unfortunately. http://wearepolymathic.com/events/ Will keep you posted, though.
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: even if it's just you two - please take a group photo at every HWC Chicago and upload to the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload and embed in the event page like even we did at the first MSP meetup! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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JonathanNeal When is KartikPrabhu around?
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KartikPrabhu so mnay messages
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+196) "note Minneapolis meeting (now that it has happened twice), organizer, link to first Chicago, MSP meetings" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: going to get some coffee... will be back in a bit :)
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JonathanNeal Enjoy, and see ya then!
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+250) "holiday collisions, quiet writing hour" (view diff)
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aaronpk hello friends! catching up on scrollback
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 13 minutes ago: is there some way on MediaWiki sites to get the change log for a particular *day* (e.g. using ISODates) ?
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aaronpk jden: I've posse'd a few github issues before
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tantek aaronpk - issues themselves or just comments on issues?
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aaronpk tantek: there's a good mediawiki API that can return changelogs for specific date ranges, that's how I do this week in the indieweb reports
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tantek I'm assuming "API" in this case means something more than just a query URL?
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aaronpk ah you want this for a web page... hmm
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aaronpk and yes gRegor` found the archives! it's all just HTML, not DB queries
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aaronpk would love for someone to take a stab at some CSS for this :) http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2014-06-27.html
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tantek JonathanNeal: ^^^
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tantek and especially chloeweil ^^^
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JonathanNeal reads the conversation
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tantek JonathanNeal: just the "take a stab at some CSS" bit :)
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aaronpk back
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chloeweil just font-family Helvetica, all font-weight 300 on it, font-size 18px boom
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1363) "first pass at structure" (view diff)
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tantek chloeweil++
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aaronpk oh wow
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Loqi chloeweil has 4 karma
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aaronpk chloeweil++
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Loqi chloeweil has 5 karma
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chloeweil haha bless
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JonathanNeal Sure, font: 300 100%/1.5 “Helvetica Neue”, sans-serif
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JonathanNeal on the body.
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aaronpk looks better already http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week/2014-06-27.html
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tantek <style>body { font: 300 100%/1.5 "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif
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tantek }</style>
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JonathanNeal <style>body { font: 300 100%/1.5 "Helvetica Neue", sans-serif
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JonathanNeal margin: 0 auto
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JonathanNeal max-width: 60em
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JonathanNeal width: calc(100% - 1em)
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JonathanNeal }
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tantek aaronpk - what do you think of replacing the personal domain lists with facepile sparklines?
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JonathanNeal </style> can do wonders
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JonathanNeal ^ aaronpk
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tantek e.g. instead of aaronparecki.com, tantek.com
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tantek you would see the little icons from {{aaronpk}} and {{t}}
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/dentonjacobs/484744417463771136/484784063207591936 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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aaronpk oh that'd be fun
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tantek e.g. <a class=h-card href=http://aaronparecki.com/><img src=http://aaronparecki.com/logo.jpg alt="Aaron Parecki"/></a>
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tantek with the image scaled with a style rule
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aaronpk i'd have to check how that looks on a kindle, but yeah
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tantek lolwhut
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+33) "/* Structure */ styling" (view diff)
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aaronpk i usually read this on a kindle :)
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tantek aaronpk, gRegor`, KartikPrabhu, as fellow HWC co-organizers, please review this to see if it reflects reality for you and makes sense.
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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tantek !tell snarfed,benwerd as fellow HWC co-organizers, please review this to see if it reflects reality for you and makes sense. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+2) "/* Structure */" (view diff)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: as fellow HWC co-organizers, please review this to see if it reflects reality for you and makes sense. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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aaronpk tantek: I like it
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tantek.com edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+0) "/* Structure */" (view diff)
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tantek is trying to lower the barrier to running a Homebrew Website Club meetup - and improve chances of documentation and welcoming of new people.
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Loqi gRegor`: tantek left you a message 27 minutes ago: even if it's just you two - please take a group photo at every HWC Chicago and upload to the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Upload and embed in the event page like even we did at the first MSP meetup! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club#Photos
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tantek gRegor`: also: feedback requested: http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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kylewm aaronpk: does Courier New exist and/or look good on a Mac?
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aaronpk yes
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gRegor` tantek: HWC photos, sure. I guess I've just felt awkward being in a busy coffee shop and stopping to take a picture. :)
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KartikPrabhu is caffeinated and catching up
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kylewm man, what can't Apple do
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gRegor` Proper newlines, kylewm? ;)
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aaronpk i'm pretty sure it's there by default, but maybe it comes with MS Word
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gRegor` You can also do font: monospace
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gRegor` (if we're talking about CSS)
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gRegor` Er, font-family: monospace;
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kylewm that's what I was going to ask for for the irc logs ^
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aaronpk ooh
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KartikPrabhu waves to chloeweil!
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tantek gRegor`: even if it's just a quirky selfie with some bit of cafe art or wall or table background
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tantek haha I was going to ask for Helvetica for the IRC logs
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aaronpk fixed width font is important I think
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tantek when Nicole saw me reading the logs on my iPod, she asked what *code* I was looking at
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chloeweil KartikPrabhu hey there
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tantek fixed width is not important
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aaronpk of course... if I add <link href="http://tantek.com/indiewebcamp.css"> to the page then you can set whatever font you want yourself :)
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tantek for IRC logs - heck in most clients it's not fixed width, e.g. Colloquy
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tantek fixed width to non-gen-1 folks = code
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aaronpk uses IRC through terminal so I'm used to fixed width everywhere
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aaronpk although my fixed width font in my terminal is nicer
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tantek aaronpk is gen-0 :P
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tantek takes one to know one. ;)
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gRegor` http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure looks good, tantek. Helpful.
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tantek chloeweil: how would you restyle http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-03 ?
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kylewm I don't have Helvetica, but sans-serif looks good to me on the IRC logs
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gRegor` It looks like we might be doubling our size next meeting.
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tantek gRegor`: woot!
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Loqi woot
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: nice!
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tantek then you'll almost be as big as the Minneapolis meeting ;)
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rascul variable width font for irc logs? eww!
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rascul monospace or bust!
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gRegor` votes for fixed width on IRC logs
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chloeweil Think of chat programs people use, is the font family so important? A lot of them are just sans serif
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chloeweil A lot of times differentiating who’s speaking from what time it was and what they were saying is valuable, like in iMessage
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rascul most of the time irc clients default to monospace font if the option is there
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tantek rascul - IRC is just the "plumbing"
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KartikPrabhu i think the font size on all the IWC stuff is too small
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KartikPrabhu uses it at 150%
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rascul plumbing requires correct fittings
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tantek we have a discussion forum - we just happen to use IRC for it under the hood ;)
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KartikPrabhu also white-space please :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: including the new Teahouse theme for the wiki?
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chloeweil Yeah, an increase in whitepsace and maybe offsetting the name of the person from the content of what they were saying so that multi-lines of text dont wrap under the name, that’s a detail though
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chloeweil Put in a max width so that the measure of hte text doesnt get too insane and you’ve got a nice reading environment just like that
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aaronpk increase of whitespace between lines?
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tantek you won't need to increase whitespace between lines if you put in a max-width as chloeweil suggests
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chloeweil People love slack hq, just look at their reading environment and take the things they do welll
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chloeweil Which is that they make it clear to see who’s speaking and what they said, and de-emphasized is the time stamp
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tantek chloeweil: could you write a 1-2 sentence summary http://indiewebcamp.com/Slack ?
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gRegor` chloeweil: I love your music stats page. Kartik was showing that to me last night.
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chloeweil About things Slack does well? I’ve never used it, I just know they’re doing something right because people are fanatical about it
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Loqi hugs gRegor`
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tantek even just that ;)
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rascul what is this slack hq?
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gRegor` I'm also very interested in your iTunes meta data export, chloeweil
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chloeweil Aw thanks gregor`
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gRegor` Whoa, thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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gRegor` hugs Loqi
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Loqi hugs gRegor`
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gRegor` Ok, now it's getting a bit weird
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tantek rascul - it's a friendlier replacement for IRC
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tantek says without ever having actually used it, and only watched people use it.
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chloeweil Slack is just a really nice chat thang, its got github integration and other nice stuff
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rascul this one? https://slack.com/is/team-communication
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chloeweil yep
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rascul interesting
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: if you manage to get The Living Room or any other, I'm sure I can make it. Its Chicago... public transit FTW
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rascul i guess if it looked like that then variable width fonts would be good
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aaronpk it's like a competitor to hipchat
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gRegor` That's what I figured, KartikPrabhu. Pretty easy from the blue line
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */ added me to Chicago" (view diff)
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rascul chloeweil i cannot seem to find you on /irc-people
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KartikPrabhu tantek: re: structure. looks good. We might follow that more once we have more than 2 people :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: the teahouse theme is nice but also too small font size for me. still use it at some zoom.
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chloeweil.com created /Slack (+420) "Created page with "People love Slack HQ. They make it clear to see who’s speaking with avatars and whitespace, offset the speaker from the text, make it clear what the person said, and de-emphasi..."" (view diff)
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chloeweil oh god im polluting the wiki with uninformed content
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tantek KartikPrabhu: at least start taking/posting group photos ASAP!
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KartikPrabhu chloeweil++ for pollution ;)
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Loqi chloeweil has 6 karma
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aaronpk building in group photos to the actual schedule is a great idea
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tantek chloeweil++ for starting wiki pages!
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aaronpk will prevent me from forgetting to take a photo in the future
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tantek thanks aaronpk!
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KartikPrabhu tantek: sure thing! seems like we'll have an expanded group next time :)
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gRegor` Interesting. What resolution are you using, KartikPrabhu?
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tantek also helps make a break in between the phases
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tantek on another subject
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tantek so the latest hip silo - emoj.li - thoughts?
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KartikPrabhu looks up resolution
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aaronpk also the halfway point is usually a good time because people trickle in late and also sometimes leave early
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tantek yes! aaronpk - feel free to add that to the structure as reasoning.
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: 1600 x 900
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gRegor` Aha
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KartikPrabhu but it should be responsive no
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: Also, in case you didn't see /wiki/redesign yet, you can set up an IWC css file on your own site to customize things.
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aaronpk also I'm going to be in san diego next HWC so we'll need another PDX host
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gRegor` I'm going to be playing with it and submitting some tweaks to the repo
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KartikPrabhu yeah heard from aaronpk
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gRegor` I hadn't checked if it's responsive
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gRegor` The font size isn't responsive. Just looks like the sidebar gets removed when going smaller
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KartikPrabhu phew: all caught up... so much activities
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: yeah
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gRegor` Actually, i think my Win8 might be on zoom, so maybe that's why it doesn't seem bad to me.
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tantek got ✒✏ on http://emoj.li/
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gRegor` whut
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aaronpk downside of terminal IRC is I don't always get emoji here
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gRegor` Just got garbled text in Chatzilla
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cweiske switch to utf-8
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donpdonp the emoji network doesnt use emojis in the domain name.
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gRegor` It already should be UTF-8
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aaronpk tantek: I got person-coffee on emoj.li!
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donpdonp snowman-dogpoo is probably taken
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gRegor` Oh, it's a pen and pencil?
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aaronpk actually boy-coffee is a better description
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gRegor` Just small. Looks like a solid line mostly
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aaronpk also cocktail-coffee-beer
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tantek is looking for other combinations
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tommorris.org edited /photo_brainstorming (-6) "/* Motivations */ ce" (view diff)
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voxpelli How do eg.WebMentions endpoints typically handle a local time defined in a h-entry dt-published?
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KartikPrabhu is there any good photo hosting type solution (like OpenPhoto)
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: you mean if it doesn't have a TZ ?
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tantek What is openphoto
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Loqi Trovebox (formerly OpenPhoto) is a photo application project that lets you store your photos on Dropbox, Amazon S3 or in your garage, and serve them from URLs on your own domain http://indiewebcamp.com/OpenPhoto
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: do you mean something you can install yourself?
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KartikPrabhu yes.
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rascul KartikPrabhu i've found several (which i don't remember names, though) but none that i would call good
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rascul i was looking into that not too incredibly long ago
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KartikPrabhu I am currently using Google for it, because it gives me multiple resolutions for each to do responsive stuffs
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KartikPrabhu But I really want my photos out of Google
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: Exactly – just realized my endpoint parses all dates without a time zone relative to its own time zone
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KartikPrabhu and deviantart!
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rascul eventually i will roll my own solution integrated into my site but that's probably a ways down the road at my pace
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KartikPrabhu voxpelli: that seems like a safe assumption or maybe UTC?
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: right now I use flickr and my flickr-archiver which makes a copy
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu maybe need to write a python photo machine
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KartikPrabhu so many things to do
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KartikPrabhu chloeweil: how do you host your photos?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: tommorris was talking this morning about working on photo posting as well.
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KartikPrabhu yeah read that hence these thoughts
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aaronpk for me, photo posting to my timeline is very different from hosting all my photos
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KartikPrabhu a good photo posting would need a felxible backend
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chloeweil On my hard drive like a person from the 90s
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tantek I think he was working on /photo-brainstorming
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: UTC would probably be better, it's weird of a post mentioning two others can appear with different timestamps on the two
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aaronpk i'm pretty happy with my photo notes now, but don't have a good plan for moving off of flickr
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KartikPrabhu chloeweil: nice :) I have hard drive copies too but you know the internetz
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/photo_brainstorming
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aaronpk hard drives make me cry :(
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: So yeah, my Win8 was at 140% zoom. Def see what you mean when it's not zoomed.
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chloeweil I use instagram and send my instagram photos to flickr but otherwise all the photos I take on my phone just go into iPhoto and thats it.
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KartikPrabhu yeah the photos space needs to be indiewebified
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aaronparecki.com edited /Events (-24) "/* Upcoming */ need portland location for HWC 7/16" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photo_brainstorming (+2669) "dfn, copy prev photo brainstorming content from photo page itself" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /photos (+29) "/* Brainstorming */ add main" (view diff)
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tantek what is photo brainstorming?
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Loqi photo brainstorming is a page where indieweb users who are working out how to publish photos on their own site can document design challenges, issues, brainstorm ideas and show examples of photography on the web that inspires them http://indiewebcamp.com/photo_brainstorming
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-07-16-homebrew-website-club (+34) "need portland location, aaronpk is out of town this week!" (view diff)
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cweiske KartikPrabhu, I'd be grateful if you could try out mediagoblin
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cweiske http://www.mediagoblin.org/
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KartikPrabhu cweiske: will invesitigate
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KartikPrabhu ooo python-based sweet!
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cweiske that's what prevented me from installing it
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KartikPrabhu but why database :(
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tommorris aaronpk: I’m not so much interested in posting on my timeline. I want to be able to easily post photo stories. and each of those stories also has a page for the photo
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aaronpk oo stories?
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tommorris aaronpk: yep, sort of like a set on flickr, but with text mixed in
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aaronpk sweet, i've been thinking about that too, calling it "collections"
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tommorris the difficult bit is the workflow integration
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/p3k/issues/8#issuecomment-35846340
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voxpelli KartikPrabhu: if you don't want a database – perhaps take a look at some Jekyll plugins?
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KartikPrabhu has been trying to force photo stories into articles: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/occupy-chicago
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tommorris my user story is basically this: I go out and shoot a parade or a protest or an event. I get home. I put my SD card into my computer. I import a bunch of RAW files. I process them in, well, ideally Aperture but probably Lightroom now Apple are killing Aperture. then I spit out a page with beautiful responsive images that look great on all devices and publish
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tommorris it on my own site.
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snarfed tommorris, aaronpk, KartikPrabhu: one recent data point for "story" design is http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2014/05/google-stories-and-movies-memories-made.html
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 50 minutes ago: as fellow HWC co-organizers, please review this to see if it reflects reality for you and makes sense. http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew_Website_Club#Structure
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yeha have seen those. people are quite impressed by it. the automatic stories are "meh" at best
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snarfed yup, that's a good description. thanks for writing it!
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aaronpk tommorris: want to add that here? http://indiewebcamp.com/collection
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tommorris aaronpk: I’ll probably put it on to photo brainstorming until my thoughts have solidified some more.
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aaronpk ok
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tommorris also, tomorrow: Indie Tech Summit. adactio is talking about IndieWebCamp. I’m talking about OpenStreetMap and cool shit OSMers are doing.
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aaronpk oh right that's tomorrow
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tommorris I have to get out of the house at a ludicrous hour to get down to Brighton, so I should probably get ready. ;-)
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tommorris I don’t think I’ve actually been to Brighton since I moved to London
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tommorris even though it’s easier now.
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tantek tommorris - good luck at Indie Tech Summit and see if you can recruit some creators for IWC UK!
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tantek needs to get his dConstruct ticket and sign up for IWC UK also!
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tommorris tantek: yep. my talk isn’t actually about IndieWebCamp - I was going to sneak some IndieWeb propaganda in, but I’m going to talk about cool stuff that OpenStreetMappers are doing
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tommorris specifically, the work that the Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team are doing to help international aid agencies in crisis response
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tantek that's awesome
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tommorris (delivering food and medical supplies to people displaced by natural disasters isn’t a “killer app”, it’s a life-saver app.)
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tantek perhaps a quick line about how OSM enabled you do post your own indiecheckins on your own site as a indie alternative to Foursquare?
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KartikPrabhu more life-saver apps please :)
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tommorris yep. also talking about Wheelmap, the OSM-based project to crowdsource wheelchair accessibility.
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tantek tommorris: maybe even as an intro
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tantek since it's a small personal thing but still cool, and then you can get all serious, life-saving, world-changing ;)
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tommorris and lots of other cool shit that people who have open data + open source tools + pure motives can do.
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KartikPrabhu JonathanNeal: were you looking for me?
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JonathanNeal I was. I am dealing with some weird stuff at the moment.
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KartikPrabhu sure. anytime you want to ping
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KartikPrabhu wants to reply on G+ but can't as the comments have no URL!
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pdurbin KartikPrabhu: that drives me crazy, how comments on G+ are not "first class"
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KartikPrabhu yeah :|
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KartikPrabhu will be a problem if I start strogin external content as multiple comments will have the same URL
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KartikPrabhu twitter did it right with "everything is a tweet"
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pdurbin it's so simple. I love it
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tantek it's a good reason to ignore G+
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tantek a second-class silo in so many ways
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KartikPrabhu then there is only twitter
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aaronparecki.com edited /2014 (+212) "/* Blog */ add scott rosenberg article" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no - FB has better UX innovation that Twitter these days
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tantek I fully expect at least a few of us to superset Twitter by IndieWebCamp 2015
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tantek on our own sites
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KartikPrabhu but me dislikes FB! was seriously contemplating deleteing FB accoutn
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tantek as in - you do everything on your own site that you would otherwise do on Twitter
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: re G+ comments, you can fake permalinks by adding arbitrary fragments, e.g. #USERID
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KartikPrabhu ooo bridgy should do that no?
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snarfed FB event attendees have the same problem, no permalink for an individual user's RSVP, so i do the fragment thing for them in bridgy
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snarfed :P
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tantek (un)follow, read, post, delete, reply, (un)retweet, (un)favorite
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snarfed yeah, bridgy could definitely do it for G+ comments too. i'll file an issue
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tantek has post, reply today and is working on /repost (see recently /2014/reposts )
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tantek FB is still very good for UX research
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tantek KartikPrabhu: makes sense - create a test account just for R&D
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pdurbin I just can't get into Facebook. Maybe I haven't tried hard enough.
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aaronpk tantek: I know you have a few places on the wiki which are sort of a "checklist to be better than [facebook,twitter]" but are they collected anywhere nicely?
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tantek snarfed - FB events used to put a post up for every RSVP "… is going"
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tantek aaronpk - hmm - FB is too feature-rich for now
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tantek I wouldn't touch that
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aaronpk well at least twitter then
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tantek I mean - good luck
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tantek but Twitter, I think that we could break down
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tantek on the /Twitter page.
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brianloveswords tantek: sorry to miss you this past weekend!
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aaronparecki.com edited /Twitter (+36) "/* Early User Interface */ smaller image tag" (view diff)
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aaronpk whoa https://pop.co/
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aaronpk "Launch your web presence
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aaronpk in under a minute"
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aaronpk nice to see a startup focusing on helping people own their web presence!
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+1244) "Features list and a few more details replacing" (view diff)
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aaronpk who is behind pop.co? we should invite them to HWC!
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tantek brianloveswords: you too! it was quite the epic event at the NYT!
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brianloveswords Nice, I'm glad it went well!
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aaronpk pop.co seems to be based in florida but with a somewhat distributed team
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tantek aaronpk here you go: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 47 karma
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tantek perhaps that should be our moon-shot for 2015 IWC
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aaronpk yeah!
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tantek Who will be the first to fully implement a functional replacement for all of Twitter features using their own site so they no longer need to touch Twitter UI?
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aaronpk that or getting everyone to RSVP from their sites to register :)
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tantek aaronpk - neat!
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tantek aaronpk - except - their "whole team" uses Twitter, not their own sites: https://pop.co/about
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tantek OOOPS. #selfdogfood fail.
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aaronpk yeah :(
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aaronpk well i think they are focused on sites for companies actually
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aaronpk funny, they even link to a twitter account for one of their team members which has exactly 1 tweet from 2011 and has been since untouched
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aaronpk their example is "www.youridea.co" rather than "yourname.co"
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+310) "/* Features */ note private message feature" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - sounds dead, perhaps start a /pop.co stub with "Criticism" accordingly?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: reader UI would be the moon-shot bit
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tantek KartikPrabhu: no, the ability to *walk away from twitter's UI* is the moon-shot
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tantek reader is just another feature, like any other in that list
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KartikPrabhu hmmm
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KartikPrabhu FB: "Hi Kartik, we'd like to hear your feedback! Please answer a few questions about News Feed." K: No thanks!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in what form did you receive that request?
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KartikPrabhu right on top of my feed do-dad will screenshot
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tantek any way to reply with a request for a $ amount?
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tantek ;)
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KartikPrabhu ha! nope
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tantek you just need to pick a high enough $ #
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KartikPrabhu screenshotting the whole process: "On the next few pages you'll see some Facebook posts. Above each post there will be a statement and a rating scale. Rate how much you agree with the statement for each post." first question
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KartikPrabhu seriously!
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tantek can't decide if Twitter does note posts with photo(s) or photo posts.
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aaronpk i think they are note posts with photos
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aaronpk can you even tweet just a photo without text?
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aaronpk also the photo URL is always included in the tweet
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tantek aaronpk - but is that a note with a photo, or a photo with a caption?
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tantek or are those two different post types at all?
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KartikPrabhu yeah why are we distinguishign those
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aaronpk i think instagram is more like photos with captions
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tantek those of you working on /photo posting support - what approach are you working on? do you see any difference between note+photo and photo+caption?
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KartikPrabhu Twitter has photo + text. now it could be a 1. main text with side photo or 2. main photo + side caption text
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KartikPrabhu thanks FB survey helped me make up mind to leave FB!
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+48) "/* Features */ note/reply cluster, also location info" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu FB showed me a bunch of posts from my "News Feed" and asked "I want to see more of this". Turns out I answered "strongly disagree" to all of them.
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you can post up to 4 photos inside a tweet
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KartikPrabhu tantek: sure... then I am using it as a text + photos
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KartikPrabhu I am saying that Twitter's post model is flexible enough to be interpreted either way :)
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tantek but there is no way to just see all your photos right?
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KartikPrabhu there is. in your profile there should be a "photo and videos" tab
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tantek I think all photos are trapped/nested inside notes in their user content model
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah sure
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KartikPrabhu for Twitter everything is a tweet... which is good and sometimes not good
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aaronpk so I forgot my Yo password and couldn't find a password reset feature. so I tweeted at them and they said to email support. I emailed support and then like 12 hours later they manually emailed me back with a new password in the email. there is no way for me to change it as far as i can tell.
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aaronpk how do you mess up user management this bad
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tantek aaronpk lol
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KartikPrabhu Yo!
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+176) "/* Features */ web actions, citation UI, pin" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Pin (+17) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /pin (+1161) "stub from IWC HW 2013 session, plus recalling more thoughts, and updates per Twitter" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: I also don't mind startign HWC later to sync up with PDX/SF through talky or something
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gRegor` Good idea
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tantek that would be great!
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KartikPrabhu would ion fact be better for me, since then I won't have to leave during "work hours"
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gRegor` How do you guys do that, take turns doing intros on talky?
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gRegor` I'm a night person, so 8:30 doesn't bother me, if it works well for others
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KartikPrabhu I am Batman!
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tantek.com created /private_message (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (-9) "/* Features */ message" (view diff)
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tantek is quite pleased with just how much of Twitter's functionality we've documented / implemented in IndieWebCamp
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tantek there's a page for almost everything
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tantek no, there IS a page for everything Twitter does
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tantek there are IndieWeb *implementations* for almost everything Twitter does
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tantek KartikPrabhu: that Twitter "photo and videos" tab does NOT just show posted photos
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tantek It shows *linked* photos and videos
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tantek e.g. I've never posted a photo to Twitter: https://twitter.com/t/media
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+63) "/* Features */ optionally attaching 1-4 photos, repost others, like any" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu oh interesting
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aaronpk I realized that "repost" is basically the author putting some other content into their main timeline with the intent of causing that post to appear to readers
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tantek ok aaronpk - I think this is pretty well fleshed out now: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features - quite a decent short list summary of Twitter features if I do say so myself :)
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aaronpk nice!!!
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yes! it is like "this post is cool. read it "
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KartikPrabhu are we still not considering extra content added to reposts?
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aaronpk and I should be able to repost my own posts too
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aaronpk such as the posts that I do not by default include in my main feed
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aaronpk like all my sleep posts http://aaron.pk/m4WtKT9
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tantek left out all the "setting up your profile" features like uploading an icon, background, profile fields (bio, website, location)
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tantek though those might be useful as a /homepage checklist
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aaronpk yeah, better as a homepage checklist
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gRegor` I'm getting a 500 error trying to cURL https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/484749325910568960/484784721059000320
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gRegor` snarfed^
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snarfed looking
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KartikPrabhu 500 through browser too
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gRegor` This was the wm process https://www.brid.gy/log?start_time=1404417290&key=aglzfmJyaWQtZ3lyNQsSCFJlc3BvbnNlIid0YWc6dHdpdHRlci5jb20sMjAxMzo0ODQ3ODQ3MjEwNTkwMDAzMjAM
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snarfed gRegor`: short answer, twitter is rate limiting you right now
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snarfed wait 15m :/
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gRegor` Eenteresting
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snarfed https://dev.twitter.com/docs/rate-limiting/1.1
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snarfed i should surface it better
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: maybe a more helpful error message?
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gRegor` does refreshing the app go towards that? I haven't been posting a lot today
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Loqi agreed.
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snarfed gRegor`: nah, the rate limit is api calls only, not web client
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gRegor` Oh. Hm. I should check what other apps are connected.
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tantek aaronpk, we had a VERY good discussion session about reposts in NYC - I think you should see those notes
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tantek notes in /2014/reposts
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes the consensus at the session was that reposts were intended as just providing the original, though we documented variants
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KartikPrabhu specially the whole "add something RT original content" seems to be popular
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tantek KartikPrabhu: but those aren't "retweets" per se, so I'd rather not consider them as such
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tantek some have been using "MT" (modified tweet / mentioned tweet) instead
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KartikPrabhu I see
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tantek for "add something MT original content"
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KartikPrabhu yeah. Lets wait to see more indieweb examples to see how this goes
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tantek or even for other changes: https://twitter.com/w3c/status/475735281950552064
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@w3c MT @t: I'm @w3c's AC / @W3CAB meetings this week and just saw this hilarious 90 sec @W3Training short: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgyKbjOGCYA&feature=youtu.be (ttk.me t4WV1) (twitter.com/_/status/475735281950552064)
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gRegor` I've always understood MT to be modified tweet, meaning the text was altered somehow. Shortened, link removed, or text altered to make it humorous.
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gRegor` E.g. https://twitter.com/gRegorLove/status/478706686027239424 "cancer" was "health". The popular joke being "anything you search on WebMD, it comes up "it's cancer!"
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@gRegorLove MT @mashable: WebMD app now tracks all of your cancer data in one spot http://mashable.com/2014/06/16/webmd-health-hub/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link (twitter.com/_/status/478706686027239424)
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tantek.com edited /homepage (+712) "dfn, silo example Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek finally starts merging /home_page and /homepage (no really)
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gRegor` Heh
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tantek gRegor`: could you document that on /modified_tweet ?
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aaronpk ooh cool
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kylewm fwiw, I've never seen MT mean "mentioned tweet"
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gRegor` Same
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aaronpk i thought it meant "modified tweet"
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kylewm (but I use repost to mean "repost with optional caption")
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gregorlove.com created /modified_tweet (+273) "stub" (view diff)
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gRegor` what is modified tweet
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Loqi A modified tweet is a tweet that has been reposted but modified in some way http://indiewebcamp.com/modified_tweet
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tantek good - then just document /modified_tweet for now
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gregorlove.com edited /modified_tweet (+302) "examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /homepage (+1600) "merge /home_page into this page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /home_page () "(-1203) r to no space, merged this page into /homepage" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /tweet (+36) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /retweet (+234) "History + link to modified_tweet" (view diff)
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kylewm i'm doing a little bit of research/experimentation on CSS frameworks, is that something worth documenting on the wiki?
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gRegor` I think it'd be good, even if just on your user space for now.
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tantek phew that was more painful than expected. (homepage merge)
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kylewm feels a little like beating a dead horse. a zillion blog posts about them already. userspace is a good idea
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tantek kylewm - maybe how you use it on your site? User page?
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tantek not sure - is there anything specifically "indieweb" about the way you're approaching CSS frameworks? or is it general webdev?
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tantek.com edited /homepage (+129) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ update / subcategorize based on current content at their home pages" (view diff)
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tantek ok folks - fairly major edits, please review (and heck add yourself to IndieWeb Examples accordingly) http://indiewebcamp.com/homepage
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kylewm tantek: 100% generic webdev stuff
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aaronpk hm yeah general webdev stuff isn't super needed on the wiki
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aaronpk we've kind of had that discussion on the /nginx and related pages
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kylewm excellent
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tantek I mean, feel free to link from your User page on what tools you like and stuff
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tantek what frameworks, editors, whatever
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tantek but your own research/experimentation on CSS frameworks would probably work better as a blog post on your site :)
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tantek.com edited /homepage (-14) "/* About You */" (view diff)
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kylewm totally agree aaronpk tantek. thanks!
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tantek.com created /profile (+22) "yeah let's frame this in the indieweb way" (view diff)
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aaronpk question: how would everyone feel about first-time wiki logins being reported here?
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aaronpk like the first time a new person signs in?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: surely people who have logged in before don't mind, but might be aggressive for the first-timers, since they don't know to expect it
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aaronpk might prompt the regulars to congratulate them is what i'm thinking :)
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snarfed might be a bit aggressive. social norm is that logging into a website is a private action
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snarfed broadcasting it would probably surprise most people, not pleasantly
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KartikPrabhu yes. but some people might want to just covertly play around with things
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aaronpk yeah, makes sense
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kartikprabhu.com edited /User:Kartikprabhu.com (+130) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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tantek I agree with snarfed
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aaronpk thanks. well it was worth discussing. :)
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KartikPrabhu wow! we've been consistently doing > 100 IRC people now
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kylewm aaronpk mentioned "we had that discussion with /nginx" ... was the conclusion to take it and apache off of /projects?
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aaronpk i think the discussion was more about whether we should even have basic nginx config tutorials on the wiki
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aaronpk i don't remember a solid resolution being reached
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kylewm oh ok, well +1 for removing them altogether from /projects
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gRegor` /server-plumbing
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aaronpk agreed about /projects
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kylewm I do like having /nginx to keep a list of people who are running it
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KartikPrabhu move to /server-setup I propose we leave indieweb jargon off of pages that newbies might look for
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aaronpk holy crap somebody already made the exact library i was looking for... and in php even https://github.com/afreiday/php-waveform-png
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aaronpk sadly his site is down "Error establishing a database connection" http://www.andrewfreiday.com/
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: gRegor`: maybe just /server?
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gRegor` Whoa, surprised that doesn't exist yet
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gRegor` +1
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: does server denote the software or hardware to most people?
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tantek agreed about projects - since we're not actively pushing indieweb stuff upstream into nginx or Apache (or are we?)
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tantek however I *do* think they are worth keeping as pages on the wiki, with an indieweb-point-of-ivew
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tantek s/ivew/view
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Loqi tantek meant to say: however I *do* think they are worth keeping as pages on the wiki, with an indieweb-point-of-view
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tantek there's just too much overly detailed hard to read docs on stuff like nginx / Apache out there on static non-editable pages and it's futile to try to fix those
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tantek so we should create the simplest / most minimal docs by and for indieweb folks for those
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KartikPrabhu agrees about simplified doc/examples
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tantek we need a /error establishing a database connection page
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tantek where we cite examples like that that we find
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tantek with screenshots
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tantek for /database-antipattern
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kylewm here's one http://www.nbcnews.com/news/all/couple-pays-each-other-put-kids-bed-n13021
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tantek wow nice one nbc
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KartikPrabhu lol at the URL too :P
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aaronpk what!
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tantek I've read that article
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aaronpk that's the beeminder people
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gRegor` Heh, small world (wide web)
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kylewm oh haha, not really
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kylewm I saw it this weekend
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kylewm like when i was reading about beeminder
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KartikPrabhu anyone have thoughts about pagination as a UI?
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gRegor` IIS . . . there's their problem.
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: yes
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: link? or shoot...
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KartikPrabhu I want to have pagination on my stream/feed but numbered pages are arbitrary
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KartikPrabhu and the location of a post changes constantly and so unusable
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aaronpk exactly
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aaronpk check out the way I do it: http://aaronparecki.com/notes?before=2014-06-12-1
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kylewm aaronpk: don't have a blogpost about that too?
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aaronpk huh, I don't think so
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aaronpk i really should
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kylewm :/ I thought I read something you wrote about it somewhere... maybe just in chat
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Hollywood/Pagination
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kylewm maybe that
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: what is the last digit doing? http://aaronparecki.com/notes?before=2014-06-30-2 and http://aaronparecki.com/notes?before=2014-06-12 give same things
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aaronpk the last digit is the post index
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aaronpk so 2014-06-30-2 refers to a specific post
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KartikPrabhu but it still shows a stream...
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aaronpk i think it's just ignoring it if you don't include the last digit
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aaronpk it's like not providing the parameter
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aaronpk it should maybe be a 404 page instead?
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KartikPrabhu hmmm unsure
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+745) "note highlevel goals: replace all my Twitter/FB usage with my own site instead prioritize a few inbox requests to community actions, move working on further up" (view diff)
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kylewm I like the idea of the oldest content being page 1
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aaronpk if you never back-fill posts then that's fine :)
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kylewm good point
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KartikPrabhu i paginate articles by year as they are not posted as often. I am a bit confused as to how to do notes stream
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+32) "smaller image" (view diff)
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gRegor` I don't have more notes than the threshold yet, but mine is /notes/page[0-9]+/
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gRegor` page 1 being the most recent.
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: what about just doing them by month?
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aaronpk hey cool I screenshotted that article on nbcnews https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/12508726684/
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tantek aaronpk - now screenshot the "update" ;)
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gRegor` I actually need to set a redirect of /notes/page1/ to just /notes/ though
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kylewm aaronpk: nice! i noticed just now, there's a working version on CNBC http://www.cnbc.com/id/101415066
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aaronpk yup just found that too
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aaronpk wow I can't believe even a site like nbcnews.com has issues like this
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kylewm yeah, it's not like it's from 5 years ago or anything
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kylewm just...february
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah might do a monthly page. but might not be scalable as the months go by! :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: do you think you might start writing more than 3-4 notes a day?
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+129) "add video at the top" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu no. not really. but the number of months will increase. so 5 years from now I'll have 60 pages of notes!
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KartikPrabhu will need a better way to browse them than "click next"
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gRegor` Why not #x notes per page?
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KartikPrabhu because then what is on the page #4 keeps changing
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+1) "photo a little bigger ok" (view diff)
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gRegor` Well, every page changes.
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KartikPrabhu you can't say "find the 4th note on the 5th page"
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gRegor` doesn't think of pagination as an archive link
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aaronpk why not?
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gRegor` but maybe I should?
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KartikPrabhu i am asking about pagination as a UI for browsing archives or streams
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aaronpk URLs are share-able and link-able. seems bad to be changing the contents from under people if they link to an archive page.
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tantek.com edited /archives (+64) "bold, among, navigation" (view diff)
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gRegor` Each note has a permalink... and eventually I could add /YYYY/MM/ archive views, since that's already part of the URL structure
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tantek.com edited /navigation (+31) "bold, dfn" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: so you expect people to change the URL to see the "next" page?
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gRegor` I don't have links between notes yet, if that's what you mean
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KartikPrabhu no links between streams of notes
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tantek.com edited /archive (+41) "linky linky" (view diff)
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gRegor` I have "older" and "newer" at the bottom of the notes stream
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tantek.com created /navigate (+24) "r" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah, you don't do streams yet
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gRegor` Yes I do. I just have <: 20 notes :)
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KartikPrabhu aah ok :P
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gRegor` http://gregorlove.com/notes/
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gRegor` I can change the threshold lower if you'd like to experiment with it
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KartikPrabhu compare to: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes which is just too long
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gRegor` I'm still working out kinks, though, thus notes aren't even in the main navigation yet.
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KartikPrabhu nods
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: i like your surprise bg photo at the bottom :)
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gRegor` I just set the threshold to 5, so if you refresh you should see pagination
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gRegor` Thanks. I was pretty proud of that design element
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KartikPrabhu yeah see, the permalink to the pagination is useless. because the stuff on it keeps changing
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gRegor` I just haven't thought of it as a permalnk. ::shrug::
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gRegor` each note has a permalink.
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KartikPrabhu true. but i feel. if there is a URL it should be useful :)
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gRegor` How often do you try to share the 5th page of someone's tweets and get frustrated that Twitter doesn't allow you to? :) Not saying it can't be a new indieweb feature... I just don't see much need for it.
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KartikPrabhu maybe if the URL were useful people would use it?
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KartikPrabhu i've always felt that x-posts pagination was broken
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: one key point is, if you want page permalinks, they can't have a page number. they need to be a datetime or other global id, like aaronpk uses
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snarfed good post on paging: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/working-with-timelines
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gRegor` I would probably point people to an archive URL: Since the note permalink is already http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/06/28/1/, http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/06/ could dynamically display all of June's notes.
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aaronpk snarfed: yeah that's what i've been doing with date-based paging
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: yes. exactly my thought
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gRegor` Interesting. I'll think about it more
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KartikPrabhu alright grocery run! bbiab
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aaronpk actually i'm anchoring pages on posts, not dates
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aaronpk should really implement partial-date paths like gRegor` mentioned
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Loqi kbs: pdurbin left you a message 2 weeks, 3 days ago: this is what I meant about a more full citation http://thedata.org/blog/joint-declaration-data-citation-principles-and-dataverse
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aaronpk kbs: welcome back!!
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kbs hey aaronpk :-)
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aaronpk kbs: did you see the gpg auth I added on indieauth.com?
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kbs aaronpk: nice! and, no - haven't been active on indieweb things for some time -- looking
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aaronpk cool!
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kbs hohoho - that's awesome aaronpk :-) https://indieauth.com/gpg - very very nice
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aaronpk :)
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kbs What is the challenge text being signed?
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aaronpk it's things like "me" and "scope" encoded as a JWT
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kbs aaah
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kbs very clever idea, love it.
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aaronpk it could have been a random string referring to a row in a DB but I decided that my favorite database is the network :) http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2013/11/17/my-favorite-database/
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kbs [One thought here is some paranoid gpg users may be reluctant to sign arbitrary text, as it has the potential to lead to forged assertions by the signer]
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aaronpk oh funny, good point
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aaronpk wow I hadn't even thought of that
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aaronpk interesting, so that means signing that challenge is making a potentially public statement saying "I signed in to this website on this date as this URL"
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aaronpk and that statement can be verified, whereas normally sign-in logs cannot be verified since a service can generate forged logs so easily
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aaronpk (potentailly public because the signer is trusting that the service is not publishing the signed text but has no real guarantee)