#indiewebcamp 2013-06-05
2013-06-05 UTC
# 
@domenicoperri I just liked "IndieWeb Reply" on Vimeo: http://vimeo.com/48097093
# @domenicoperri #USERMEDIA domenicoperri starred barnabywalters/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension https://github.com/barnabywalters/IndieWeb-Reply-Browser-Extension?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter #invispide
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xtof trying olark http://www.olark.com/plans on http://xtof.me - any indie alternative could be cool
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tantek.com edited /IndieArchive (+221) "note collaboration with invitation from Brewster" (view diff)
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julien51 Hi!
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@BarnabyWalters @julien51 #indiewebcamp on freenode! Would love to chat about PuSH and SubToMe and other such things (http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1492/)
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# eschnou julien51, ho! welcome on the indie side of the feed :-)
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# julien51 Thanks!
# 
barnabywalters welcome julien51!
# julien51 Thanks barnabywalters
# barnabywalters !tell sandeepshetty RE webmention on WPC — oops, looks like I forgot to implement that yet! coming soon :)
# barnabywalters julien51: what time zone are you in?
# julien51 barnabywalters GMT+0200 :)
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# julien51 barnaby, what did you wanted to chat about?
# julien51 PuSH and SubToMe?
# barnabywalters certainly those are topics we’ve been talking about recently and thought “we need julien in here”
# barnabywalters I had a look over the latest version of PuSH and it looks eerily similar to what I specced out http://indiewebcamp.com/pubsub#Brainstorming
# barnabywalters how active is the PuSH community? it looks like 0.4 was last touched a year or so ago
# barnabywalters is anyone implementing it?
# barnabywalters just realised there’s no subtome wiki page — starts writing a stub
# julien51 So, yes, when I read your proposal, I found it very similar to what we had designed for PuSH 0.4. The bad news is that we're struggling to get adoption
# julien51 But the good news is that I recently heard from folks at Google who said they're adding support for it to their hub
# barnabywalters the appspot one?
# julien51 and we're doing the same for superfeedr. We're actually even releasing a compliance test suite soon
# barnabywalters oh great!
# julien51 which I think is better than a spoec
# julien51 barnabywalters: yes the appspot one
# barnabywalters nice. the test suite you mention — is the for hubs and/or publishers and/or subscribers?
# julien51 for SubToMe: how do i add a stub page?
# barnabywalters one of the recurring things about PuSH is that it’s tricky to test for publishers
# julien51 tes suite is for hubs + subscribers and publishers
# julien51 what do you mean by tricky to test?
# barnabywalters julien51: tricky to determine whether or not pings are being sent correctly
# julien51 barnabywalters: ha, yes indeed… the easiest way is to subscribe to the feed from a non polling feed reader and see if the data go thru
# julien51 tommorris are you talking about notifixlite.appspot.com/ ?
# barnabywalters tommorris: testing PuSH? I found it a nightmare, until aaronpk (?) discovered that XMPP bot
# julien51 we should indeed advertise more notifixlite.appspot.com
# barnabywalters julien51: ah, not sure I’ve heard of that
# julien51 we area ctually trying to create a node.js version of it standalone
# julien51 that's just an RSS -> IM bot which does no polling and will show realtime PubSubHubbub notifications :)
# julien51 it's a good way to test things
# 
waterpigs.co.uk created /subtome (+251) "Created page with "
{{stub}} SubToMe (Subscribe To Me) is a button content publishers can put on their sites which enables users to subscribe to their feed in whatever reader they choose — sort o..."" (view diff)# barnabywalters julien51: ^ I created a stub — you can log in to the wiki right?
# julien51 to test, (while chat still works!) add "notifixlite@appspot.com" to your list of contacts in an XMPP client
# julien51 thanks for the SubToMe page. I'll add stuff to it right away
# julien51 also, back in the day we created an RSS -> IRC bot which worked similarly, which could be handy to test if PubSubHubbub works :)
# julien51 http://blog.superfeedr.com/groveio-rss-hook/ but grove is defunct now I believe
# barnabywalters I’ve been using push-bot@appspot.com to test PuSH but I’m not sure it’s been working properly
# barnabywalters trying notifixlite now
# julien51 push-bot is indeed very similar to notifixlite, but was created after it :)
# julien51 beware has this instance regularly runs out of AppEngine credits
# julien51 also, it's worth noting that XMPP will soon be deprecated form AppEngin, so both bots will break :(
# barnabywalters okay, notifixlite has *way* better UI than push-bot
# julien51 thanks, but again, don't bet too much on it, AppEngine will kill it
# julien51 also, it's on github
# barnabywalters :(
# barnabywalters would it be easy to set it up, say, on heroku?
# julien51 at this point, not easy, because we use the XMPP API from AppEngin, but it's a fairly simple thing to build
# julien51 from scracth
# julien51 we actually hired a contractor to do it
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# julien51 create a node.js version of it, deployed on heroku, nodejitsu, azure… etc, and API-independant
# jaso julien51: has version 0.4 of the push spec been finalized?
# julien51 jaso: yes, a long time ago :)
# jaso it's not on the project's homepage
# jaso and it's not announced in the newsgroup https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topicsearchin/pubsubhubbub/0.4
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /PubSubHubbub (+456) "/* Testing */ expanded testing section, added link to notifixlite and mention some XMPP providers" (view diff)
# julien51 jaso the project page is not up to date because Googlers only have access to it :/ and the messages are quite old
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# jaso so the future of push is in the hands of google?
# jaso superfeedr should fork the project
# julien51 jaso: I don't know how you "fork" a project :) but you're right, we have "taken the lead" whatever that means
# julien51 we were hopng to get W3C involved, but they're not that active either :) http://www.w3.org/community/pubsub/
# jaso julien51: announce on the mailing list that the project has a github repro, where the new spec (version 0.4) is available
# julien51 jaso: that was done a long time ago :) i don't have time/patience to look for it, but that was done several times!
# jaso also, consider calling it v1.0 and drop the "working draft" from the title ;-)
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# julien51 jaso why not!
# julien51 barnabywalters: know if the wiki supports inline JS ?
# jaso julien51: because you want adoption of the spec
# barnabywalters julien51: not sure, I don’t think anyone’s done it so far, give it a go
# julien51 jaso: I believe it's actually quite widely adopted :) where would you want to see it ?
# jaso as you wrote earlier, v 0.4 is not widely adopted
# julien51 for some reason, I suck at doing wiki
# julien51 :(
# julien51 well, I am unable to insert HTML in there :(
# barnabywalters julien51: no problem, thanks for fleshing out the page!
# barnabywalters what HTML do you want to add?
# julien51 I'd try to add a button :)
# julien51 so people can see what it's all about :)
# barnabywalters no need, subtome.com does that so well
# julien51 hmeh
# julien51 ok
# julien51 up to you I guess
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /subtome (+114) "Put content into Why section, added implementors list" (view diff)
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# erikmaarten tommorris: if you're fine with a local reader, I think RSSOwl is a decent alternative
# erikmaarten (local as in not-a-cloud-service)
# erikmaarten ah
# Garbee tommorris, If you want to simply host your own, TinyTinyRSS I like: http://tt-rss.org/redmine/projects/tt-rss/wiki
# Garbee Very simple reader.
# erikmaarten Garbee: I have been looking for something like that, seems handy and straight-forward to install on a simple hosted server
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# julien51 tommorris there are a couple ones here: http://subtome.com/store.html
# julien51 also, you can instal your own http://www.commafeed.com/ :)
# julien51 cweiske : we heard a lot of good things about it too. We would love for it to work with http://subtome.com, do you know if there is a page where you can add new feed url that would accept a query string to pre-fill the feed url?
# barnabywalters +1 for URL APIs
# barnabywalters then <action do=subscribe> would work too
# barnabywalters I thought feed:// did exist
# barnabywalters problem with URL scheme handlers is that browsers don’t make it easy to choose which eligible application to open with
# barnabywalters same with content types
# julien51 I prefer using <link rel=""> to custom url handlers, because feeds *are* HTTP resources (emails are not!)
# julien51 cweiske: thanks for the pointer to http://your.tt-rss.host/public.php?op=subscribe&feed_url=%s, could you help check that it "works" for you with SubToMe?
# barnabywalters cweiske: sure, URLs can handle custom schemes — but no browsers I know of allow you to pick from a list of eligible apps when you go to one of those scheme URLs (as subtome or webactions toolbelt do)
# julien51 cweiske what is your tiny-rss domain?
# julien51 (even local!)
# barnabywalters cweiske: ooh, nice URL API
# barnabywalters adds to wiki
# julien51 cweiske: do you mind clicking on https://www.subtome.com/register.html?name=TT-RSS&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffeeds.cweiske.de%2Fpublic.php%3Fop%3Dsubscribe%26feed_url%3D%7Bfeed%7D
# julien51 and then on the "Try the button" button on https://www.subtome.com/
# Garbee erikmaarten, TTRSS is very simple to install. And I have ran it on a hosted server before. Works fine.
# julien51 and confirm that you see TT-RSS has en option and are redirected to the right page?
# Garbee Plus there is an Android app at least.
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /Web_Action_URL_APIs (+188) "/* Web */ added tiny tiny RSS subscribe to feed URL API" (view diff)
# Garbee julien51, It is an option, waiting on the redirect to finish.
# Garbee yup, it works.
# julien51 *yay* :)
# erikmaarten Garbee: nice. I'll probably give it a try
# julien51 we want to introduce an 'API' to avoid one redirect so that the SubToMe button itself calls (jsonp!) the subscribing application directly to perform the subscription
# julien51 of course it is!
# julien51 https://www.subtome.com/publishers.html
# julien51 hum… local storage is namespaces by domain
# julien51 so it can't be shared by multiple domains/sites
# julien51 which is why we needed to use a domain for that app
# julien51 not directly, because the settings would be stored under your site's sdomain
# julien51 but we offer a mechanism to load a "picker": https://www.subtome.com/publishers.html
# barnabywalters this is a problem we’re trying to fix with web actions
# julien51 that can be embedded on any wage
# julien51 barnabywalters: I know, and we had everything working with WebIntents, until it was killed
# julien51 so we needed something else
# julien51 and as long as web actions are not ubiquitous, we will need SubToMe
# barnabywalters julien51: have you checked out http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions at all? and my implementation, https://github.com/barnabywalters/web-action-hero-toolbelt
# julien51 got it?
# julien51 barnabywalters: i did, many times...
# barnabywalters UI is way behind subtome
# julien51 cweiske: that would work too, but nobody links to feed with feed://
# julien51 barnabywalters it's not just that, how do I do from Chrome?
# julien51 we can't have site owners "cloak" their content for browser X or Y
# 
@xtof_fr @viadeo des outils de stats faciles pour aider annonceurs/agences á coopérer ? #rsvp http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page Regards. xtof.me #indieweb
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tantek cweiske - I think a "commons" can be an exception to that for collaborative projects: http://indiewebcamp.com/commons
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tommorris bitbucket is quite nifty in that you can point a subdomain to it - so http://code.tommorris.org/
# tommorris self-hosted github = http://gitlab.org/
# tantek.com edited /commons (+402) "/* Popular Commons */ note github criticisms from cweiske on IRC" (view diff)
# barnabywalters wow, the bitbicket subdomain thing is retained even in internal links?! nice
# tantek.com uploaded /File:twitter-home-in-stream-reply-context-thread.png "screenshot of Twitter home page stream fragment showing a tweet followed by an @-reply tweet that by default shows a reply-context of the person being replied to with smaller icon, and original text being replied to, same font, just slightly smaller text size for the original tweet, and above that, the precedeing thread, "View 3 more tweets", vertical ellipses up to the original tweet."
# tantek.com edited /reply-context (+237) "/* Twitter home page */ twitter home page reply-context of a reply-thread, ellipsed/collapsed display" (view diff)
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# tantek.com edited /reply-context (+130) "/* Twitter home page */ View more tweets goes to the *start* of the thread" (view diff)
# tantek.com edited /reply-context (+64) "/* Twitter home page */ does not expand in-place. seems reasonable." (view diff)
# tantek more on that in-stream reply-context - reply threads summarized! http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context#Twitter_home_page
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# tantek.com uploaded /File:twitter-home-in-stream-reply-context-tweets.png "screenshot of Twitter home page stream fragment showing an @-reply tweet that by default shows a reply-context of the person being replied to with smaller icon, and original text being replied to, same font, just slightly smaller text size for the original tweet, and above that, the immediately previous tweet that was the start of the thread."
# tantek.com edited /reply-context (+180) "show reply context with @-reply, what it's in response to, and the start tweet that that is in response to" (view diff)
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# barnabywalters oh with the little grey line things?
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# barnabywalters (puts “intelligent designer” hat on) they’re using the gestalt principle of connection
# barnabywalters liking the dotted line for “view more tweets”
# barnabywalters must be gradually rolling it out, I can’t see them on my feed
# barnabywalters I’m not keen on the way time constantly changes direction on twitter.com
# barnabywalters e.g. from feed to permaink page
# barnabywalters having “n more” as a permalink to the conversation URL is a really good idea
# barnabywalters tantek: yeah :/
# waterpigs.co.uk edited /reply-context (+382) "/* Twitter home page */ added comment on the constant flipping of the directionality of time on twitter.com" (view diff)
# barnabywalters actually that probably opens up the possibilities for a whole other sort of twitter-humour
# barnabywalters conversations read backwards making more sense than they originally did
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# _grawity from top to bottom, except for things like this :P
# barnabywalters _grawity: well, consider Loqi’s !tells as very much delayed messages :)
# barnabywalters the order of time is still preserved, mostly
# barnabywalters it’s unlikely that the answer to a delayed question would ever appear above the delayed question its self
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# julien51 Absolutely no script is required by any publisher to use SubToMe. Also, SubToMe is browser agnostic (it's web based!), and has already been implemented by many feed readers. But I guess you could also *wait* for another couple years before something happens :) I decided to move forward to make something that works without compromising the future.
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# 
JonathanNeal More things for tantek to get upset about http://www.googleventures.com/humans.txt
# 
@sandeepshetty Blogging was all HTML. Social networks are all plaintext. Something to think about. #indieweb #fedsocweb
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# 
Loqi @t + http://mydatalabs.com/Sarah_Breen love this way !
# sandeepshetty is catching up on IRC logs on what seems to have been an interesting day
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# sandeepshetty julien51: while I'm caching up and since you are here would love see some comments form you here: http://indiewebcamp.com/push-vs-pull
# sandeepshetty s/form/from
# Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: julien51: while I'm caching up and since you are here would love see some comments from you here: http://indiewebcamp.com/push-vs-pull
# julien51 sandeepshetty: I don't agree with a lot of things in there :/ How should I comment?
# sandeepshetty Homepage has a singin with your domain link at the top right... you need some very basic rel="me" stuff to make it work...
# sandeepshetty and then you can edit the page
# julien51 ha, I know how to use the wiki, but I don't want to put all my comments in there
# julien51 when you say pull is simple for publishers, it's actually not accurate. It "appears" simple, and yet that's pretty hard to handle. For example, at some point, almost 40% of Tumblr's traffic was consumed by search engine. That's not *easy* to handle
# sandeepshetty and add you POV
# sandeepshetty julien51: this wiki uses indieauth for authentication hence the instructions... wasn't assuming you didn't know how to use a wiki :)
# julien51 even indieauth I know :) I'm ouvre-boite.com too. Let me add comments in ()
# sandeepshetty oh :) yeah I think it's better on the wiki page...
# sandeep.io created /User:Ouvre-boite.com (+38) "Created page with "
{{stub}} Julien Genestoux (@julien51)"" (view diff)# grawity don't want to be annoying, but it was never really explained why using the bare domain (without a path) is required
# tantek grawity - see http://indiewebcamp.com/why
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# grawity tantek: yes, but it only talks about having one's own website – it does not make a distinction between http://foo/ and http://foo/~bar/
# grawity this is partly out of curiosity (I'm interested in the reasons behind decisions), and partly because I want to log in to the wiki with such an address :)
# grawity tantek: http://nullroute.eu.org/~grawity/ (disregard the boring content inside)
# sandeepshetty grawity, tantek: +1 for allowing paths (basically a URL). example.com/foo is no different from foo.example.com in most cases
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# sandeepshetty from anownership perpective.. unless you look for the proper domain using something like https://wiki.mozilla.org/Public_Suffix_List
# julien51 sandeeshetty: I added my comments.
# julien51 Also, what's great is that push does not replace pull at all… it comes on top of it and that's why it's so elegant and important!
# sandeepshetty is checking the diff
# julien51 sandeepshetty I think you're generally missing the point and comparing apple and oranges…
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# sandeepshetty ok done checking the diff.. lots of stuff to discuss, I wonder if I should do it here or just add to the wiki...
# sandeepshetty let me start here and then I'll move to the wiki :)
# julien51 sandeepshetty: up to you, but I don't have a lot of time ahead
# sandeepshetty in that I'll just add stiuff to the wiki and prefix your comment with julien51 and mine sandeepshetty so it's clear who is saying what...
# sandeepshetty Looks like loqi is not real-time today :)
# tantek http://eu.org/ is fascinating
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# sandeepshetty tantek: I agree it feels a little less indie... have to admit I haven't thought too much about identity URL ownership...
# sandeepshetty I've always wanted to "own" my domain and never considered using subdomains or paths...
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# grawity tantek: my guess is lazy admins (they go through the backlog only several times a year) plus the requirement to have at least two existing nameservers
# sandeepshetty grawity: what's the reason you want to use the ~grawity and not buy your own domain?
# grawity (it has existed since 1995 though, so I assume they have ways of dealing with it)
# grawity sandeepshetty: well, the domain (nullroute.eu.org) *is* mine
# grawity sandeepshetty: but there's more in it than just my personal site
# sandeepshetty so then it's not your personal site?
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# tantek bret - perhaps add a brief section re: .tc on http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#domains ?
# grawity sandeepshetty: /~grawity/ is my personal site, while / is various stuff that's made by me but not about myself
# sandeepshetty ah sorry my bad
# sandeepshetty julien51: Couple of things: I was comparing push vs pull not PuSH vs pull
# sandeepshetty PuSH is interesting because it's a mix push and pull
# julien51 sandeepshetty: well you explicitly wrote that "(PuSH was designed by Google engineers to solve their problems with aggregation and not solve the problems of the subscriber - which is a central actor on the indieweb)."
# sandeepshetty also the security stuff in required by default with push and not with pull because the publisher doesn't care who is subscribing
# sandeepshetty yeah some points are little mixed up :)
# julien51 it is required as much as https + valid vert is required if you want to 100% that the content your seeing was sent by the server you asked!
# sandeepshetty also some of the advantages of hubs in PuSH can be had in pull by publishers delegating to an aggregator
# grawity tantek: at first look it's a stable one (it was itself created as a protest against registrars trying to screw people over, and the owner later founded gandi.net)
# sandeepshetty https + valid cert is a lot different than having to do crypto stuff like signing
# julien51 not really, in both cases you can use libraries to do that on your behalf. It's just that we all forgot how it's done for https and valid certs since we used these libraries, but my point is that you can't say "security is complex in push" and just plainly ignore that it is complex on "pull" too.
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# sandeepshetty not really, a publisher *has* to confirm subscriptions from subscribers to avoid the attack vector. you don't have to do that with a pull.
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# julien51 again, not sure what you're comparing? I though you were not comparing PubSubHubbub? That's a pubsubhubbub thing.
# sandeepshetty and a subscriber just has to access the fee url over https with pull while with push there has to be some mechanism to share a secret and then use that to sign the payload and then the subscriber has to check the signature
# sandeepshetty any push/webhook will *have* to do something like that... irrespective of PuSH to avoid the attack vector and confirm origin
# julien51 "just access the free url over https" is actually quite complex but hidden from you because you used libraries to do that. There are libraries who do the same for you with PubSubHubbub.
# julien51 sandeepshetty: sure, in the same way that CURL has to perform the SSL handshake and check the validity of the cert chain.
# julien51 you are comparing apple and oranges
# sandeepshetty julien51: You are comparing HTTP server + HTTP clients with custom libs... IMO *you* are comparing apples to oranges :)
# julien51 both Push and Pull are HTTP server and HTTP clients talking together!
# julien51 Also, no matter what, I still don't get your point. What's the point of comparing 2 complementary things?
# sandeepshetty Psuh requires additional mechanisms on top of http/https
# sandeepshetty I'm making the case for starting with pull and only going to push if you need it
# sandeepshetty bret: I like iwantmyname.com
# julien51 well, great point then! no need to do all these untrue arguments to come to it :)
# sandeepshetty and my guess is that for indieweb stuff you might not need push.. but I could be wrong (like many other situations in the past)
# sandeepshetty bret: that's what I have with sandeep.shetty.in
# sandeepshetty julien51: hopefully I'll fix the wiki and they won't see untrue to you after that :)
# tantek bret - sounds like a good way to start http://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains
# julien51 sandeepshetty: please do also come up with data when you make your statements like "simple publisher.", or "* better for frequent updates because they are grouped together." because the data have shows the exact opposite, I'd love to learn from you!
# julien51 bret: http://domai.nr/ :)
# sandeepshetty julien51: I did plan to run some test... will publish some no. when I have them..
# julien51 tantek: who said the mailing list was the community? you? where should PuSH be where it's not?
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# julien51 tantek: I don't think you can measure the usefulness of something with the number of comments on a mailing list… I'm worth you and I'm tired of people discussing things in mailing lists (or IRC channels for that matter) I look at implementation. PubSubHubbub is present for a huge number of feeds. That's a fact which is far more interesting to me than X people discuss it on an obscure IRC channel :)
# julien51 tantek I don't agree with that. Sometimes things are good. If nobody moves them forward it's probably because nobody knows (yet!) where to push them forward
# julien51 I love the indieweb community (and you know it), but I don't think it's anything in terms of success/adoption compared to what we achieved with PubSubHubbub.
# julien51 tantek: this is exactly why I cam here… but i have't heard anyone tell me how we could make PuSH better. I heard/read uninformed statements like "simple publisher." or " implies your site cannot be static.".
# julien51 " realtime federated comments" ? Where?
# tantek I wrote about it here: http://tantek.com/2013/113/b1/first-federated-indieweb-comment-thread
# julien51 ha, that, yes, I read it and it's indeed amazing (maybe the only reason why I'll rewrite ouvre-boite.com), but it also reminds me of SWAT0 a couple years back where Bounds and Prodroumou and Googler demoed the same thing with Identica, cliqset and google buzz.
# julien51 tantek: PuSH is not the best thing for 1-> pings, it's a Publish Subscribe mechanism for fanout.
# julien51 tantek: interrop does not mean everyone needs to be open source!
# julien51 "PubSubHubbub (PuSH) is a notification-based protocol for publishing and subscribing to feeds/streams in real time."
# julien51 tantek: we'd need to ask evan, but I'm sure there was at least another couple impls that 'worked' but were not used. Was it restates?
# julien51 s/restates/rstatus
# julien51 true, but they also backpedal because we eventually surrender and give them the power back
# julien51 brett: is there any fan of XMPP? What does that even lean being a fan of XMPP? The only thing that matters in XMPP is federation.
# julien51 we also need to stop trying to be nobel prizes. The open web community is full of people who think that whatever everyone else did is crap and that *they* alone will make something better and change the world
# julien51 Honestly, there is not a week where somebody comes to me/superfeedr and says, we're doing this new federated social web thing and it's better than what you did, please support it and tell the hubs you host (Tumblr…) to do it.
# julien51 sandeepshetty: exactly!
# sandeepshetty I always add that as the first reference link to everything "new" I work on :)
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# julien51 that's the shame of anyone working at opening social networks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_software_and_protocols_for_distributed_social_networking
# julien51 [and I'm sure they still miss a dozen!]
# tantek in my experience they're usually isolated pockets of monoculture: http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture
# julien51 the world would be different if anyone listed on that page had the duty to make their effort federate with at least one other on the page
# julien51 tantek every time someone disagrees a new line is added to that table
# julien51 that's my point: if you want others to work with you, work with them!
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# sandeepshetty julien51 , tantek: with the indie web every site is different implementation so you get what your asking for by default with indieweb
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# sandeepshetty you have no choice but to interop with indieweb
# sandeepshetty and agree on ways to do it
# sandeepshetty tantek: a group of people using wordpress (monoculture) could be self-dogfoosing...
# sandeepshetty I thinks what's more important is everyone is building their own thing for their own needs
# julien51 tantek: chicken and egg. Dogfooding alone is self inflicted ban-hell. There is no way anyone can survive that.
# sandeepshetty tantek: re matt, but that doesn't help with interop with other platforms
# julien51 tantek but matt had readers and comments. He was not alone.
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# julien51 as for POSSE I'm sure you were still logged in on Fcebook and twitter all the time. You had a point to make, but most people would not spend more than a day posting on their own site with POSSE if they figure out that they can just do it directly on Twitter/FB
# julien51 tantek: I mean that posting to your own site that no one reads quickly becomes really hard to use. People post to twitter or Facebook because other people follow them there.
# julien51 of course i think dogfooding is fundamental and a necessary condition, but my point is that federation too is necessary
# julien51 no, on social nets most people post for their followers/subscribers not for search engine who would find that weeks/month/years later.
# julien51 well, fir indexing, not for findig
# julien51 my content is in Google right away, but people won't find them for years, when they'll look for it!
# tantek anyway I think I covered all this here: http://tantek.com/2013/073/b1/silos-vs-open-social-web (speaking of posting, findability, and months later ;) )
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# julien51 *reads*
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# julien51 good one, but I'm still not buying that federation is not key :)
# julien51 anyway, it's time to finish my work for the day.
# julien51 tantek: who knows, maybe I will!
# julien51 but I want you to put a subToMe button side by side with that ugly twitter follow me button
# julien51 :p
# julien51 ttyl
# sandeepshetty !tell julien51: I've updated the wiki page with my comments. BTW, except for the one instance you mentioned nothing about the push section was about PuSH.
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# 
bret where would this fit in on the wiki? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnonolan/ghost-just-a-blogging-platform
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# sandeepshetty bret: It's vaporware till they publish the code
# sandeepshetty guess it can have it's own page like http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
# sandeepshetty also later here: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#production
# sandeepshetty just add
{{stub}} to the topsmus and spinnerin joined the channel
# sandeepshetty I like ho wyou qualified it with *intelligent* :D
# sandeepshetty yay!
# sandeepshetty yeah I guess it makes sense to update it..
# bre.tc edited /2013/Guest_List (+0) "/* Official Guest List */ Updated signed up count" (view diff)
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# sandeepshetty yes he owns it I htink
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# sandeepshetty_ He mght... there's always twitter and the pubsubhubub mailing list though.
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# bret tantek: http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains#tc http://indiewebcamp.com/subdomains Also check the guest list count: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Official_Guest_List
# 
aaronparecki.com edited /2013/Guest_List (-22) "update my list of projects and company" (view diff)
# tantek bret, re: Ghost, LMS(earchTheWiki)FY : http://indiewebcamp.com/Ghost