#indiewebcamp 2015-07-25

2015-07-25 UTC
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snarfed hey KevinMarks, just fyi, i got a 500 on http://svgur.com/i/1a.svg a minute ago
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snarfed it went away when i refreshed
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KevinMarks I got a weird error uploading another version of that - metadata too big
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upon2020.com edited /caldav (+223) "added myself" (view diff)
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upon2020.com edited /caldav (+25) "added OSX Calendar support" (view diff)
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upon2020.com edited /caldav (+97) "added disclaimer" (view diff)
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aaronpk j12t: thanks! My favorite part was it was published in German too!
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tantek j12t++ thank you! Appreciate the example and especially the note about private use. Every real world example that we collect like this helps better inform future designs.
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Loqi j12t has 5 karma
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tantek what is OakJCR?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OakJCR" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100J
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tantek what is Meta64?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Meta64" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100K
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tantek This makes no sense to me - perhaps someone else can understand? https://twitter.com/ClayFerguson/status/624698602653249536
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@ClayFerguson @t @indiewebcamp #SWAT0 @jcr @jackrabbit What will become the Federated Web of Social Portals built w/ OakJCR? Answer http://meta64.com (twitter.com/_/status/624698602653249536)
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tantek What is a Social Portal?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Social Portal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100L
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aaronpk I looked at that, clicked the link, then immediately closed the tab
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tantek snarfed, yikes re: FB deprecations
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tantek more bricks in the walls
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snarfed yup :/
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tantek benwerd: you were too kind, could have said something like resistance if futile. #radiofreeamerica
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tantek s/if/is
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Loqi tantek meant to say: benwerd: you were too kind, could have said something like resistance is futile. #radiofreeamerica
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david.shanske.com edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+382) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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GWG Okay...better set an alarm.
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GWG Sleep deprivation is fun
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@jarofgreen I'm awake and showered this early after a crazy week. #indiewebcamp Edinburgh better be good. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (Still time to come!) (twitter.com/_/status/624834630173257728)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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Loqi [mention] Matthias Pfefferle posted 'Bild von: https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement Tantek Çelik fasst in einem Artikel die Highlights der IndieWeb Bewegung...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement (http://notizblog.org/2015/07/25/indiewebcamp-2014-this-is-a-movement/)
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@pfefferle IndieWebCamp 2014 – This is a movement http://notizblog.org/2015/07/25/indiewebcamp-2014-this-is-a-movement/ (twitter.com/_/status/624841762717052928)
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Loqi [mention] Matthias Pfefferle posted 'Bild von: https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement Tantek Çelik fasst in einem Artikel die Highlights der IndieWeb Bewegung...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://notizblog.org/2015/07/25/indiewebcamp-2014-this-is-a-movement/)
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@CoderScot RT @jarofgreen: I'm awake and showered this early after a crazy week. #indiewebcamp Edinburgh better be good. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (Still… (twitter.com/_/status/624842491301363712)
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indie-visitor Hi all, somebody around to discuss a question about h-entry?
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indie-visitor Nobody around? What's best time to ask a question, in Holland it's in the morning now.
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KartikPrabhu hey indie-visitor wassup?
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@harry_reeder @jarofgreen Yup, an early Saturday for me too. Bag packed and just about ready to roll towards #indiewebcamp Edinburgh :) (twitter.com/_/status/624846114181750784)
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indie-visitor Hey Kartik
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KartikPrabhu so what is your question on h-entry. lets see if I can help
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petermolnar.eu edited /Flickr (+46) "/* Peter Molnar */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu also you can set your nickname using /nick youname if you want to
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indie-visitor I'm trying to answer this question for myself: should I use hentry/h-entry on normal pages, since I consider this not as 'datestamped content'. A lot of WordPress themes don't think about this and just use it, but because a page doesn't output a 'author' and 'published' this is giving errors in Google Webmaster Tools. I can now go two directions: add this information (because it is correct to have this info on pages) or r
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indie-visitor (since it's not datestamped content)
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KartikPrabhu what is h-entry?
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Loqi h-entry is the microformats2 vocabulary for marking up blog posts on web sites https://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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KartikPrabhu I just asked that so Loqi will answer with a link
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Loqi grins profusely
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indie-visitor Yes, but on the microformat IRC I got this about hentry/h-entry for pages: I don't think it's incorrect to mark up pages with h-entry or hentry (the indiewebcamp.com wiki marks up every article with it)
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor: yes I saw that on the microformats IRC
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indie-visitor But I'm trying to understand that becausing reading the microformats docs I just don't get it...
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KartikPrabhu I agree with kylewm's answer there. Since there isn't anyone who consumes pages, it does no harm to mark it up with h-entry
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KartikPrabhu on the other hand, even if you don't mark it up it is fine too :)
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KartikPrabhu indie-visitor: all of this depends on why you want to mark up pages in the first place
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KartikPrabhu for instance, is there someone who parses your static pages for microformats? to what end?
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indie-visitor To be honest I do it only to benefit our search results, and for that I'm already into schema.org as well. But it doesn't harm to have hentry/h-entry included as well (Google reads this), but having it on pages Google gives errors because of the missing 'author' and 'published'. Although I'm quite sure these errors are not that important as well, I'm think I'm best of just removing hentry/h-entry markup from pages.
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indie-visitor Pages are not included in XML feeds as well.
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indie-visitor Only blogposts and comments are.
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KartikPrabhu if you are only concerned with search results I don't know if any search engine actually parses microformats for anything
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KartikPrabhu i might be wrong.
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KartikPrabhu i mean i don't think any serach engine uses h-entry markup. they might use rel links
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indie-visitor Don't know in that much detail, but they supported different microformats markups for search results before they came up with their own schema.org.
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indie-visitor But outside this scope...
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indie-visitor Why is indiewebcamp marking up pages with h-entry/hentry?
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KartikPrabhu right. I just mean that if your only concern is SEO, you don't need to worry about microformats that much
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indie-visitor Who/which tools is consuming their pages?
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KartikPrabhu to do replies form site to site
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KartikPrabhu to consume h-feed as HTML markedup feeds instead of RSS/Atom
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indie-visitor From WP I only know that posts and comments are outputted as feed to consume by readers. So user using RSS tool for example can easily follow blogposts or comments.
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indie-visitor In this perspective
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indie-visitor I don't understand your example yet about 'replies from site to site'
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indie-visitor I understand that marking up h-feed with h-entry is meant to be 'consumed' as well
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KartikPrabhu by "reply from site to site" I mean that you can reply on your site to a post on my site and using webmention and microformats it will show up on my site under the post
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indie-visitor but I never seen website with archive pages (h-feed) about pages
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KartikPrabhu here is a example of site to site replies: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/re-rss-atom
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KartikPrabhu this is what indiewebcamp is doing. You write on your own site, including replies, fav, reposts and all that. And the other site will know about it and parse it using microformats
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indie-visitor Thanks for the further explenation, I had seen that on other site already, it's about the idea to 'publish your content on your own website first' when I'm right.
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KartikPrabhu yes
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indie-visitor Yes great! That we got that straight :-).
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indie-visitor Last thing though..
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KartikPrabhu microformats are more useful in that context than SEO
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indie-visitor I understand (I'm interested in that as well).
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indie-visitor That comment that we are talking about = datestamped, so I understand using h-entry there.
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indie-visitor But how to relate this to my original question why I should have h-entry on a normal page.
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KartikPrabhu you might want to have h-entry on a normal page if someone uses microformats to check for updates, for example
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KartikPrabhu as an example, suppose I have an about page. I can mark it up with h-card and an updated date so people can check if my personal info has been updated
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KartikPrabhu like if I change my avatar
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KartikPrabhu or phone numnber/email
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Loqi [bridgy] Armin Grewe +1ed a post https://indiewebcamp.com/2014-review#This_Is_A_Movement (https://plus.google.com/+MatthiasPfefferle/posts/9neajHNpoKf)
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indie-visitor Ok, thanks for that example as well. Can you only confirm that I'm right that the page markup is not important/related to getting the -comment-on-your-site-first- functioning?
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indie-visitor Ow I didn't read all text
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indie-visitor avatar example is good as well
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indie-visitor thanks for all your help!
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indie-visitor Then I'm only having this last question:
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indie-visitor Can you only confirm that I'm right that the page markup is not important/related to getting the -comment-on-your-site-first- functioning?
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KartikPrabhu yes. as far as I know all comments etc... are done using posts and not static pages
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indie-visitor Ok, thanks for all the help again and have a great day!
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KartikPrabhu if you are interested in getting indieweb functionality on wordpress we have a wiki for that
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KartikPrabhu what is wordpress?
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Loqi WordPress is an open source blog software as well as a blog hosting service https://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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KartikPrabhu there you go link ^
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indie-visitor Thanks for the link, are going to look into that!
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KartikPrabhu cool. have fun!
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@IndieWebCampUK Who's excited for IndieWebCamp Edinburgh? This remote participant is... https://twitter.com/IndieWebCampUK/status/624861699942821888/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/624861699942821888)
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acegiak So I'm trying to work out if there's a way I can do something like Obsidian Portal but on my own website
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KartikPrabhu what's that?
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acegiak ObsidianPortal is a site that lets you organise notes from RPG games
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acegiak it's basically a wiki with a bunch of little features that work really well for RPG games
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KartikPrabhu acegiak: why not start by posting usual /notes and go from there
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acegiak like wiki pages can have secret sections that are only visible to certain people (ie the player who knows the info and the gamemaster)
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KartikPrabhu like /private-posts ?
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acegiak KartikPrabhu: that's what I've been doing with my preparatory work for my upcoming game
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KartikPrabhu nice. I can see a /collection post which collects all the /notes from a game
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KartikPrabhu that is what I think I'll do with my photos
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acegiak wondering what's the lowest friction way to let my players contribute
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KartikPrabhu oh without an indieauth login?
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acegiak indieauth might be the way to go
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acegiak I haven't thought much about this yet
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KartikPrabhu or maybe they can submit /edit posts
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acegiak I've been posting my prep stuff to my blog
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acegiak and I feel like having a separate wiki will discourage us from contributing to it
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tantek good morning #indiewebcamp!
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acegiak morning, tantek!
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tantek reads the logs and sees a discussion about h-entry / hentry and Google / search
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KartikPrabhu tantek: let me know if I handeled that wrongly
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rhiaro Morning, tantek do you know what's up with te IWC youtube? ben_thatmustbeme gave me access, but I forget how..
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rhiaro It doesn't show up as an account I have access to when I'm logged in..
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tantek rhiaro: I have no idea what's up with IWC youtube
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rhiaro Okay, just thought I'd check :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: anything in particular?
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tantek what is Obsidian Portal?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Obsidian Portal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100M
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KartikPrabhu tantek: mostly about search engines not caring about microformats
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tantek KartikPrabhu: where did you get that impression?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I mean about h-entry. Do search engines do anything with h-entry? or any microformats other than rel
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tantek we don't actually know
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tantek all we do know is what they do claim to index
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tantek you can't actually substantiate "not caring", thus it doesn't make sense to make the claim
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tantek KartikPrabhu: did you try looking on the microformats wiki?
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tantek e.g. for "search" or "Google" ?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: ok will check for next time
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tantek why not check now to check what you thought / said?
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tantek no need to hold onto a hypothetical supposition any longer than you need to when there is more background material to help you with a more informed summary
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@pkrautz RT @pfefferle: IndieWebCamp 2014 – This is a movement http://notizblog.org/2015/07/25/indiewebcamp-2014-this-is-a-movement/ (twitter.com/_/status/624868027125866496)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: checked now. mostly concerned that the wiki might be out of date 2010
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KartikPrabhu in any case, nothing on the microformats wiki suggests that h-entry is used so I wasn't too off base
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tantek well except for the fundamental logic error of presuming "not caring"
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KartikPrabhu yes.
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KartikPrabhu is it fair to say that it is not known that search engines do anything with h-entry
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tantek as with most things, search engines are secret about what they actually do with any particular markup
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KartikPrabhu gotcha
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tantek absent any evidence, all we can assume is that they (at least try to) use whatever markup they find that's useful to them (e.g. enough instances / domains using it)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: cool. off to sleep now. night
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acegiak is there a tool I can give to my players so that they can send webentions manually with a nice UI?
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rhiaro beta.talky.io/iwcedi
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JarOfGreen @rhiaro starting IndieWebCamp Edinburgh .....
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timkrins.com edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+181) "/* Regrets */" (view diff)
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moredhel rhiaro finishes introductions
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moredhel rhiaro begins showing her own site http://rhiaro.co.uk
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aaronpk lost the livestream!
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moredhel working on it
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moredhel rhiaro showing quill.p3k.io to demonstrate posting to her site
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aaronpk oops i think the "like" bookmarklet broke since twitter changed some security settings
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aaronpk like a couple days ago
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aaronpk that might be a good project for me to fix tomorrow :)
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moredhel rhiaro describing her potential goals for this weekend
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moredhel JarOfGreen, opening and destribing his website
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moredhel interested in easing the process of passing web-mentions around the web
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moredhel tbrb mentions and displays his site...
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moredhel describing his new site that he is setting up
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JarOfGreen Specially around events and open data for events - for my work on http://opentechcalendar.co.uk/
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moredhel KitB talks about his site https://kitb.pw
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moredhel shows how to setup rel links for indie auth
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moredhel grant shows his website, http://grant.codes ...
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moredhel closes
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moredhel kethin describes http://www.matrix.org, one of the sponsors of the event
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moredhel hosted on github, allows for a decentralised way to perform voice and video to your website.
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rhiaro s/kethin/kegan
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KitD question asked about comparison with xmpp
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KitD answer: xmpp is very "thin", matrix.org does "presence", "who's typing", "receipts"
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KitD tbrb mentions xmpp horrible for voice and video
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moredhel incosistent api with XMPP, this aims to provide a higher level api.
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moredhel mentions his own site https://kdougal.wordpress.com
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moredhel francesco opens, describes his background of academia and wed-dev...
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KitD rhiaro mentions wordpress plugins for indieweb
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moredhel describes his website, fran.io
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rhiaro Fran: posting interface is on a url without authentication, so not showing everyone
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moredhel describing his website's state, and wanting to add more to it
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tbrb For anyone following iwcedi here, I just deployed my updated site, with support for signing in with indieauth at harryreeder.co.uk
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rhiaro River: mm0hai.net
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rhiaro ... Deliberately minimal website with blog posts and map
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rhiaro ... Jekyll
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rhiaro ... Recently added indieweb bits, webmention.io
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rhiaro ... Doesn't do anything with webmentions yet
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rhiaro Henry: pitest.org
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rhiaro ... A site for open source projects I've been working on
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rhiaro ... Began life as a static site, writing html directly
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rhiaro ... then uses hakyll, haskell static site generator... now jekyll
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rhiaro ... *talks about mutation testing*
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rhiaro Bart: Used to have a blog once
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rhiaro ... Uses github instead of blog, force self to commit things
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rhiaro Gandolf: Last time I had a website was when people were using dialup
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rhiaro ... Worked on website using university computers, hosted on JANET
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rhiaro ... Posted a video, but people tried to look at it using dialup
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rhiaro ... Before google, I was the firs thit for 'gandolf'
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rhiaro ... Until the university asked if there was a reason he had a website on their servers
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gorzilla.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+225) (view diff)
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rhiaro tbrb is back, having deployed new site
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rhiaro ... Wants to start posting to new site this weekend
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rhiaro ... Can now sign into harryreeder.co.uk via indieauth
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rhiaro ... *internal server error*
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JarOfGreen sarcastic clapping established early on :-)
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rhiaro ... *tries again just in case*
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aaronpk tbrb: you can add sms support so you don't need to log in to github on amy's computer :)
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rhiaro moredhel: hamhut1066.com
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tbrb aaronpk: I'll add that to my to-do :)
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aaronpk pretty sure it works with non-us numbers anyway
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tbrb I'll have a tinker and report back then :)
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aaronpk moredhel describes how he built his site, used to have javascript on it, but got annoyed at how slow that made it, so now there's no JS at all and it's fast
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rhiaro Tim: retout.co.uk
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rhiaro ... Went to IWC Brighton last year and has done almost nothing since
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rhiaro ... Site is a combination of blog (since 2007, disabled comments because of spam) and pump.io which does 'crazy social stuff'
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tbrb Ok sign in works now!
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rhiaro ... Very interested in federation and social web and stuff
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tbrb dodgy database config setting
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rhiaro ... I want to throw it all away and write it from scratch
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rhiaro Gordan: Don't have much of a web presence. Ethical Hacking student from Dundee.
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rhiaro ... gorzilla.co.uk
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rhiaro ... Just signed into the IWC wiki
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rhiaro ... Would be interested in sandstorm.io. And personal stuff.
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gor_zilla s/Gordan/Gordon
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KitD rhiaro: "indiewebify.me is good"
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KitD ... also IndieMark is useful
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aaronpk are we switching to hangouts?
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GWG I have no idea. I just got here.
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tbrb aaronpk: I've got both on the go, apparently the hangouts one automatically records too
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aaronpk yep
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GWG I'm trying to tune in the Youtube one as the easiest to get on the bigger screen, and it says please stand by.
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rhiaro GWG we can run both if you like?
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rhiaro Forgot to hit go on the youtube for the intros :/
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aaronpk aw darn!
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rhiaro We're on a break right now, just about to do schedule
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rhiaro Hopefully can rustle up enough laptops to stream all sessions
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GWG If you can. Only because I always have trouble getting talky on anything but my computer, and then I can't see the chat.
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GWG If not, I'll go fire up a spare computer like I did earlier this month
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@conflictmedia Cool and important work is done on #federation & #decentralization http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html http://indiewebcamp.com/ @w3c #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/624890868932182017)
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rhiaro GWG: we can do Hangouts, sure
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rhiaro Stand by
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rhiaro (stand by for info from tbrb, he's in charge of it)
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GWG Hangouts is two way
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tbrb GWG: http://bit.ly/1MOg0fj that's the Hangouts session :)
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GWG I was hoping for one way.
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tbrb you can do both with hangouts
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tbrb you can view it on the youtube channel for watch only, or the hangouts link for two-way
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aaronpk the youtube link says it's not live yet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH4BeQ5skSw
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GWG I'm trying to get the watch only, because I have a Roku box hooked up to my TV. Later I may come in on talky.
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GWG What aaronpk said.
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GWG It say Please Stand by
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tbrb Yeah, we're doing schedule at the moment
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tbrb so there's nothing to see right now on it anyway
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tbrb It's going live now though to test it out
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GWG I now have a logo
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GWG And audio
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tbrb Ok cool
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GWG A bit low though.
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GWG I hear people, having trouble making out the conversation clearly.
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GWG Sounds like it is underwater
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GWG I see...and then it said Loading..
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tbrb Should be good now?
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GWG Better
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GWG Now I just have to concentrate a bit.
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ben_thatmustbeme good morning IWC Edinburgh
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@papapelz yeah. ich geb die credits weiter an @diplix, der mich wiederum angefixt hat ;) #indieweb https://twitter.com/sys_adm_ama/status/624893125950087168 (twitter.com/_/status/624895022819844096)
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aaronpk good morning!
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: I'm still asleep myself.
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, sleep typing, impressive
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Good reason to forego the camera feed.
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ben_thatmustbeme whoever moved the laptop, we juts lost sound... reallly choppy now
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ben_thatmustbeme someone post a photo of the schedule grid though
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rhiaro Photo pending
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KitD ben_thatmustbeme: on its way
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rhiaro We're doing a getting started + webmentions session with everyone first
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GWG Still a bit choppy, but getting better
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rhiaro Do you want to be able to speak?
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GWG rhiaro: No, I'm fine right now.
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tbrb uploading the photo now
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme, aaronpk?
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GWG I'll just type in IRC
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tbrb ben_thatmustbeme: http://img.harryreeder.co.uk/2015-07-25_12-00-26.jpg
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tbrb Raw schedule photo, I'm going to type it up into the Wiki now
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aaronpk thanks!
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@IndieWebCampUK Indiewebcamp Edinburgh schedule https://twitter.com/IndieWebCampUK/status/624897605613568001/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/624897605613568001)
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rhiaro Is the audio okay right now?
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GWG Not bad. I think we all need to invest in microphones though
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ben_thatmustbeme no audio
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ben_thatmustbeme for me
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, coming back
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tbrb Room is very quiet right now anyway
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indie-visitor audio on youtube streaming is gjkljldsfjsfljls
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KitD indie-visitor: does it seem to be a capture issue or a hardware issue?
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aaronpk i suspect it's an encoding issue, maybe not enough CPU
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indie-visitor it suddenly got better
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csarven left the stream to donate his share to the others
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aaronpk maybe turn off talky and just do hangouts?
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indie-visitor oh, video is dying.
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tbrb Got a different laptop doing hangouts audio, is that better?
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csarven If only tuning in to receive the stream, just use YouTube.
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csarven goes back to his text-editor.
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indie-visitor I'm currently using youtube, not hangout
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indie-visitor baling out...
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@macleodan At indieweb camp Edinburgh. Talking about getting started on the #indieweb. (twitter.com/_/status/624902027483697153)
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ben_thatmustbeme lovely echo in the feed actually
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tbrb I'll see what I can do about that
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tbrb Yeah, the laptop with the webcam doesn't seem to be beefy enough, CPU wise
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tbrb Audio will stay, I'll swap the video over to a better one
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aaronpk wow why are fil upload buttons so hard to style
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tbrb re-starting the hangout now
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KitD http://bit.ly/1gUIIBi new hangout link
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ben_thatmustbeme soooo much better
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p6UieJVafk
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tbrb Ok, noted for future that that laptop is too low spec to run hangouts :'(
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ben_thatmustbeme tbrb++
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Loqi tbrb has 2 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme KitD++
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Loqi KitD has 1 karma
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tbrb Now to finish typing the schedule
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@rhiaro Testing from IWC Edinburgh! #indiewebcamp http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/07/testing-from-iwc (twitter.com/_/status/624905335539679232)
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KitD Hah, tbrb posted the new hangout link from my laptop
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KitD (which is being used for the video stream)
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tbrb yay for having multiple spare laptops around
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Loqi giggles
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone with additional quesitons, feel free to toss them out in IRC
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather questions not necessarily on topic to the session
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KitD I think the difficulty right now is figuring out what questions we should ask
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+765) "/* Schedule */ Add in session grid" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme anything, KitD think of it as "you might want to code this tomorrow" so what do you need to know
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KitD I'll figure out the questions tomorrow
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme discussion is always better than a lecture
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KitD not to mention I live with rhiaro :P
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ben_thatmustbeme i figured
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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moredhel true.
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GWG Unrelated to IWC EDI: If replying to a post on another site, where do people usually store the name of the other site's post, if it exists?
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GWG I'm looking at the storage in light of the Micropub stuff, which stores everything as its mf2 property.
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, i store all other posts i reply to in to a "contexts" table
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+57) "/* Day 1: Saturday */ Tidy ups and extra links" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme i should probably merge that with comments
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ben_thatmustbeme but its basically just storage of "other's posts"
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Loqi +1
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ben_thatmustbeme then its just relations between my posts and them, or those posts to each other
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, i remember why i keep those seperate
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GWG Right now, I'm storing the data in a field called cite, which seems to be correct.
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ben_thatmustbeme i allow editing of comments, but i don't edit context messages
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Why?
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KitD Damn, I should've brought a mouse mat; these desks are entirely too white for my mouse
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ben_thatmustbeme GWG, i do recursive context history
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ben_thatmustbeme keeping relations of posts to other posts is important for me. and saves me repulling sites
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anm Hi, I'm having trouble with the microformats parser, http://pin13.net/mf2
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anm It works for my site http://mm0hai.net, but not for https://mm0hai.net
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anm I just get an empty result with https
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ben_thatmustbeme anm: both appear empty for me
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ben_thatmustbeme nevermind, now it is
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anm hm, I just looked again right now and it works
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anm yes, it was being weird like that here too
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GWG anm: Caching?
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ben_thatmustbeme checks unmung.com
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@girlgeekscot RT @NCREDINBURGH: Don't Forget @NCREDINBURGH are hosting #IndieWebCamp in Edinburgh this weekend > http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (twitter.com/_/status/624908997917847552)
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KitD I'm definitely seeing it working without ssl and not working with ssl
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KitD the vouch article is the longest stub I've ever seen
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ben_thatmustbeme http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmm0hai.net%2F&html=&pretty=on
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aaronpk haha maayyybe it's not a stub anymore
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ben_thatmustbeme pretty much every page on the wiki still says stub
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ben_thatmustbeme hah
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aaronpk wow how did vouch come up so early in the conversation?
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ben_thatmustbeme there is another implementation working
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ben_thatmustbeme gRegorLove is working on it
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rhiaro aaronpk: spam
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aaronpk ah
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ben_thatmustbeme no, no breaks allowed :P
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ben_thatmustbeme yes, streaming is much much better
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@kitbarnes @edindies @wishf_ @tinyblob @ItsStalemate @jeffmadriaga @charliehodara not to mention #indiewebcamp https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (twitter.com/_/status/624910244553035776)
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rhiaro next session is private posts, access control stuff
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rhiaro Race to drop useful links?
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ben_thatmustbeme http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts
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ben_thatmustbeme yes on youtbe
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csarven http://www.w3.org/ns/auth/acl
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rhiaro etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/private
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/private-webmention
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rhiaro Thanks
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anm thanks, unmung.com is working for me
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aaronpk csarven: that link just downloads a file called "acl" for me
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ben_thatmustbeme well currently one of the twins actually
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rhiaro Have there been private posts discussions on iwc etherpads before?
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aaronpk not sure. you could search the wiki tho cause the etherpads all end up there
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csarven aaronpk Do you have a particular way of handling RDF/XML in your client?
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aaronpk you mean my browser?
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aaronpk uhh
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csarven Whatever your client is.. browser, curl, ..
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csarven aaronpk See also http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl
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ben_thatmustbeme sneaks both girls in video frame
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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aaronpk they are so tiny!
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: twice the size we brought them home at
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry off topic
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tbrb Awwwww, I just saw the twins there :)
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poka will having a Google acct get you video on X11 firefox? http://mw.logbook.am/hangouts.png - 403 error suggests it's not a codec but a signin issue. webm/vp[89] all compiled in
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poka surellt there's an indie and opensource-in-debian 1-lline cam-cappture-to-reflector-for-VLC/mplayer tool?
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rhiaro aaronpk: http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/private
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aaronpk rhiaro: here's an example of a GPG-encrypted post https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/02/26/7/gpg
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ben_thatmustbeme javascript contol of anything fails the cURL test though
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ben_thatmustbeme missed part of the convo
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: js for decrypting
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ben_thatmustbeme ah
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ben_thatmustbeme there is always the "analog hole" if someone could read it, they can share it
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ben_thatmustbeme the concern was automated systems doing that
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ben_thatmustbeme "syndication" for example
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, if you are going to post a version people have to log in to to see anyway, would probably be better to just stick with that, not needing multiple posts
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ben_thatmustbeme (in response to the PGP and other post for facebook people, etc)
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tbrb rhiaro: We'll try and get back to the schedule with after lunch sessions?
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ben_thatmustbeme obscure URL
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ben_thatmustbeme for static sites
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moredhel my thought too... but then how do you distribute the url?
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ben_thatmustbeme webmention direct to those people
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moredhel true
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ben_thatmustbeme mmm pizza
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tbrb We've not quite perfected food-over-ip
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: we've still got breakfast left, help yourself to pizza :)
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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GWG Breakfast pizza?
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: thats just mean
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ben_thatmustbeme 8 am here
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aaronpk 5am here, almost time for breakfast
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GWG Babies and cats. Fun
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JarOfGreen Starting notes for next session, events http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/events
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ben_thatmustbeme tries to get pause to sit still for the fee
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ben_thatmustbeme d
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GWG And now, for a cat interlude.
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csarven ben_thatmustbeme A cat named "Pause" that don't sit still? Is that like the buttered cat paradox?
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress/Data (-429) "/* Post Kinds Plugin */" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme csarven: dog
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ben_thatmustbeme cat.... phhht... he's way cooler
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@IndieWebCampUK Indiewebcamp Edinburgh lunch time (thanks @NCREDINBURGH!). Remote @indiewebcat has a snooze. https://twitter.com/IndieWebCampUK/status/624919538057003008/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/624919538057003008)
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ben_thatmustbeme almost got him on stream rhiaro
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GWG !tell acegiak I'm rewriting the Post Kinds data plan again.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak GWG: what? why?
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Loqi acegiak: GWG left you a message 23 seconds ago: I'm rewriting the Post Kinds data plan again. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-25/line/1437827450992
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tbrb so, in ~ 45 minutes we've got two sessions in parallel, one on Categorisation / Collection & Media and one on Static Sites, we may be able to get a hangout going for each, though if folks want we can just move the current hangout wherever needed
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GWG acegiak: I'm trying to add more data in.
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JarOfGreen Oh wait, events is not the next session
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acegiak isn't the current structure designed to let you do that without changing any of the existing stuff?
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GWG acegiak: So I want to support additional mf2 prefixed keys.
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, i mean, recording sessions in somewhat new, i don't think we have ever recorded more than one at a time
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rhiaro IWCEdi, breaking ground.
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ben_thatmustbeme but i'm for it, but don't go to too much trouble
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GWG acegiak: mf2_cite is staying as it is, except for the change I made regarding multidimensional arrays.
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, Dora and Pause both in one hangout
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Loqi ahahaha
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ben_thatmustbeme "dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!"
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GWG acegiak: I'm trying to support mf2_in_reply_to, mf2_bookmark, mf2_rsvp, etc. as part of the Micropub work.
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rhiaro Did syndicating to indienews via webmention go anywhere yet?
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rhiaro jarofgreen and I are just discussing syndicating indieevents to opentechcalendar via webmention
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aaronpk i think i wrote up how i want it to work
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rhiaro Is that sensible?
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aaronpk it's not quite a webmention, it's a slight overloading, but i think it is a good mechanism
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rhiaro yeah
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JarOfGreen is the issue if some web mentions you a page that has an event on, are you sure they want that event to be passed on or is that by accident?
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GWG acegiak: If you have any ideas in this vein, tell me. This time, I'm not deprecating, I'm expanding.
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JarOfGreen for example, if an site has a side bar box with upcoming events you might pick them up, but they are not part of the main post
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JarOfGreen eg http://edinburghhacklab.com/2015/07/arduino-workshop-august2015/
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JarOfGreen also, this may not always apply but it does in my case; you want to categorise events on your site, so when you import events by any means you need to be able to do that
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aaronpk yeah that's the danger of a plain webmention for syndication
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aaronpk but requiring the source site actually links to the intended destination helps
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rhiaro you'd want a u-syndication(?) anyway, right?
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aaronpk the trick is you won't know the URL of the u-syndication until after you send it there
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aaronpk so the response will have the URL
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rhiaro oh, right, yeah
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rhiaro that's why I don't have syndication links for my tweets
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aaronpk so it's a little more than a webmention because there is a response
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+392) "Links to etherpads" (view diff)
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JarOfGreen well, i think i might be talking a separate case
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JarOfGreen i want to post some content on my site with an event or something and be like "I want this syndicated to these other sites, X, Y, Z". It would be nice if X, Y and Z could get a webmention, parse it, see the event but also see that I definitely want it to be passed round and automatically import it for me
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ben_thatmustbeme h- is just a giant troll
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ben_thatmustbeme hehe
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aaronpk you know we can ask tantek when he wakes up
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JarOfGreen plans a, b, c, etc .... all fell thru
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ben_thatmustbeme its an upside down mu (micro
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ben_thatmustbeme i believe is correc
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ben_thatmustbeme schema.org.... mark your oceans up with a fax number :P
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ben_thatmustbeme ocean is funnier i think
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ben_thatmustbeme should send that roll to arhcive.org :P
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aaronpk oh, a problem with syndicating via webmention... the webmention verification and pulling in the content would have to happen synchronously in order to return the syndication URL in the response
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ben_thatmustbeme huh?
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ben_thatmustbeme oh
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ben_thatmustbeme only if you don't queue
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aaronpk you can't queue if you are going to return the URL in the response. that's my point
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ben_thatmustbeme you would have to be able to poll the queue later for the syndication url
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ben_thatmustbeme :/
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ben_thatmustbeme not idael
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ben_thatmustbeme /ae/ea/
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/9#issuecomment-124846594
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ben_thatmustbeme raises his hand
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rhiaro ack ben_thatmustbeme
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: ad yourself here! http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Asynchronous_status_polling
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ben_thatmustbeme https://github.com/dissolve/webmention
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aaronpk we had also tossed the idea around of a "callback" URL sent with the webmention, where the receiver can post status data there later
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ben_thatmustbeme i actually just removed the code for that
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aaronpk you had code for that?
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ben_thatmustbeme because it was never used and i never actually hit the callback
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ben_thatmustbeme i stored it
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't think i ever called the callback
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aaronpk the callback method seems better for syndication, because the sender wouldn't need to poll for an indefinite amount of time
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ben_thatmustbeme is still thinking this is overloading webmention
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ben_thatmustbeme and micropub is a better syndication method
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aaronpk i wouldn't think of it as overloading webmention, just a totally different spec that does similar things
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shout-user60 https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/g2dctlavdjaf4mzakjnxlutohma
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aaronpk the challenge with the micropub one is how do you handle auth?
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gorzilla.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+77) (view diff)
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IWC-Edi-Session2 ^ static sites
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aaronpk you'd need either real authentication (which is going to be too much hassle for everyone involved) or you need to be able to verify the canonical version of the post again
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aaronpk which means async processing
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aaronpk so we're back to square 1
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ben_thatmustbeme actually much easier. basically the only thing you need is a few changes to your webmention endpoint to make it a client
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ben_thatmustbeme say i go to service X, it says, "syndicate here" and has a button, that links to your webmention endpoint with a code to tell it where to start auth
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moredhel tbrb is way too excited
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tbrb =3
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moredhel <3
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ben_thatmustbeme the ideal case is to not have the webmention receiver require any extra code
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ben_thatmustbeme just be a generic micropub client
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rhiaro Kongaloosh: you're probably interested in collections and media session starting right now: http://etherpad.indiewebcamp.com/media
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ben_thatmustbeme so you could syndicate to anything that already accept micropub
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aaronpk that seems like an unnecessary goal
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rhiaro and tantek was talking about presenting multiple photo posts at some point a while ago..? (anyone remember?)
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aaronpk since no community/aggregate sites support micropub right now
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: why, indienews would just be ANY site
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ben_thatmustbeme s/would/could
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: aaronpk: why, indienews could just be ANY site
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ben_thatmustbeme indienews could be a known site
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ben_thatmustbeme once multi-user micropub works that is
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aaronpk okay here's the problem
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aaronpk we're talking specifically about syndication, meaning there is a canonical post that is intended to be copied
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aaronpk this is distinctly different from a multi-user blog, where there is only one copy of the post
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ben_thatmustbeme correction, micropub endpoints need only accept "u-url means this is a syndication of that url"
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aaronpk in order to syndicate a post, the syndication target needs to either: 1) fetch the data from the original or 2) verify the intent to syndicate
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ben_thatmustbeme or something to that effect
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aaronpk (where in case 2 the syndication request would contain all the post data)
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ben_thatmustbeme this allows for different versions to syndicate though as the data passed to the syndication site may be different
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aaronpk but in both cases, whether or not the request contains the post content (micropub-like vs webmention-like protocol), the syndication target needs to check the canonical URL
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ben_thatmustbeme you don't need 1) if you are using mp
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aaronpk right 1, is the webmention-like protocol, 2 is the micropub-like protocol
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ben_thatmustbeme did we lose audio/video in the hangout?
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ben_thatmustbeme frozen
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aaronpk but unless you go check the canonical URL, you're not doing syndication, youre just doing multi-author posting
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aaronpk (yeah hangout video froze for me)
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ben_thatmustbeme sure you are, its just a different method of syndication. you are saying the plumbing defines whether you are "syndicating" or "reposting"
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tbrb Main laptop was on battery, just booting it up again
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aaronpk in either version, the syndication target needs to go check the canonical URL
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ben_thatmustbeme why?
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aaronpk otherwise the syndication target is going to get spammed with fake syndication requests
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ben_thatmustbeme it requires auth. you just cut off auth to that person
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ben_thatmustbeme if you want you can require syndication url be from the same site you are registered with
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aaronpk at least going and fetching the canonical URL means spammers have to create a web page
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ben_thatmustbeme micropub means spammers have to log in
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aaronpk without that step, spammers just have to create fake IDs which is way easier
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ben_thatmustbeme creating webpages is just as easy
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tbrb And we're back
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aaronpk creating webpages is harder
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aaronpk but still easy, as pingback spam has demonstrated
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aaronpk what we should do is write up the full flow of both versions here http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-brainstorming
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aaronpk so that we can see actually all of the steps
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ben_thatmustbeme agreed
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, other advantage, is that syndication can be easily added to your syndicate-to
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ben_thatmustbeme programatically
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aaronpk i think it's the same for both
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ben_thatmustbeme you haven't authed at all though have you?
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Webmention (+144) "/* Implementations */ add me" (view diff)
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aaronpk can I call these two methods "thin" and "fat" instead of "webmention" and "micropub"?
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, i suppose, but they are both existing specs that we are working with so i think it makes sense the other way
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aaronpk i want to avoid any baggage of calling it webmention or micropub
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aaronpk at least in the brainstorming doc, we can change it later if it makes sense
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ben_thatmustbeme is concerned that usually "thin" has immediate preference to "fat"
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aaronpk i could call them "1" and "2" but that isn't very descriptive
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ben_thatmustbeme push vs pull
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ben_thatmustbeme ?
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aaronpk that works
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aaronpk there's also reference/value
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ben_thatmustbeme true
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aaronparecki.com created /syndication-brainstorming (+622) "stub with description of two methods" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: question, what would a standard micropub post containing u-url mean for your mp receiver?
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aaronpk that seems like it would be requesting the micropub endpoint create the post at that URL
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aaronpk is "canonical" a property of h-entry?
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ben_thatmustbeme no
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ben_thatmustbeme well, i don't know
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ben_thatmustbeme i had never seen that
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aaronpk i think it's not, i think that's what "url" is for
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ben_thatmustbeme exactly
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ben_thatmustbeme if the url if offsite, you obviously can't create it
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aaronpk yeah and my newest micropub endpoint would just set that as a property of the thing it creates
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ben_thatmustbeme when you mark up the syndication it should have u-url to the canonical one though
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ben_thatmustbeme another reason explicit crud would make sense
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ben_thatmustbeme and action=syndicate
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ben_thatmustbeme possibly
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ben_thatmustbeme scrud
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ben_thatmustbeme heh
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+1095) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+1021) (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme difficult to write everything up yet, i will get to it.. .but were on our way out the door
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aaronpk btw whatever we end up with for this I want to get in to calagator.org
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aaronpk portland's tech calendar
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ben_thatmustbeme but to syndicate to silos what url would you put the in u-syndication url?
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ben_thatmustbeme the service you are using to syndicate? or the silo?
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be cool aaronpk
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aaronpk this is a syndication protocol, so it only works if both sides speak it
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ben_thatmustbeme for example bridgy
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aaronpk you would put the bridgy publish URL
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aaronpk which is fine because it's going to reply with the tweet URL anyway so you can store the twitter url after it's done
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ben_thatmustbeme just thinking of that interim period "view on twitter' and it links to brid.gy publish url
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aaronpk yeah i guess you could make it a hidden link instead
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aaronpk !tell Jeena thanks for the PRs! they are live on quill.p3k.io now!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk oh i'm going to add a step and assume these posts were created via micropub, which should help
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, i'm off
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aaronpk there will be more things on this page when you return
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll catch up later
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ben_thatmustbeme cool
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aaronpk rhiaro: http://aaron.pk/e4aD1
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rhiaro thanks!
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aaronpk here's one with some indie rsvps http://aaron.pk/e4Y61
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aaronpk hmm ben_thatmustbeme's image broke
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+1717) (view diff)
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rhiaro Notifications/reminders for indie events, anyone?
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rhiaro If I RSVP to an indie event, it would be cool if I could include in my rsvp that I'd like the publisher to ping me the day before or something
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aaronpk as opposed to using native reminders/notifications of your client? e.g. iphone
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aaronpk my ears are burning :)
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rhiaro :)
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aaronpk i missed most of that tho
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rhiaro someone mentioned lifelogging
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aaronpk ah :)
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rhiaro River: "who thinks this is a good idea"
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aaronpk rhiaro: http://aaron.pk/m4cKzbr
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rhiaro jarofgreen has the projecting laptop ^
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kegan_ aaronpk, how do you insert entries into /metrics?
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aaronpk Teacup!
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aaronpk https://teacup.p3k.io/
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aaronpk and https://teacup.p3k.io/pebble
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aaronpk are you guys making fun of my php? :P
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tbrb aaronpk: no, rhiaro's teacup menu is suggesting PHP under Food
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aaronpk rhiaro eats php for dinner
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rhiaro nomnomnom
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rhiaro It was one of those days.
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rhiaro I really need to figure out why my micropub endpoint is rejecting teacup posts
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aaronpk yes
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rhiaro IWC session suggestion: what aaron does.
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aaronpk that might be a long session
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rhiaro haha
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anm aaronpk: What is your motivation for posting so much detail about your life - food, sleep etc? I feel like this is a bad idea - it gives an attacker a lot of help.
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rhiaro Hope you don't mind being used as examples for everything
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aaronpk anm: luckily i don't have many enemies
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rhiaro But if you got just one enemy, they have everything they need all at once
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rhiaro indienemesis
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aaronpk it's possible i will make some of this stuff private or restricted to some smaller audience in the future
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aaronpk but it's not like you can really do much with the information of when I last slept. maybe you will know if I'm more tired than usual or something?
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anm aaronpk: do you see some benefit from publishing it?
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rhiaro when you're not in the house might be more useful to enemies
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anm well I can see your routine (if you have one, not examined it) and have some idea when your house is empty or where you are
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rhiaro insurance companies might be interested in your sleeping habits
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aaronpk rhiaro: if someone wanted to know when i was not at the house they could just stand outside and wait for me to leave
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rhiaro hah
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rhiaro but they dont' even have to get out of bed
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aaronpk the main benefit is providing examples for indiewebcamps right now :)
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anm I wonder if it is a good example
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rhiaro I'm really interested in logging everything for my own personal interest
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aaronpk also it is a good reference for myself
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rhiaro And having it public is just easier
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aaronpk i have more than once gone back and looked up when i last ate something, or what time I woke up on a certain day
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rhiaro I find food logs are triggers to loads of other memories about a day
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anm have you seen some benefit from other people seeing it though
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rhiaro anm: sometimes people are like 'what do vegans even eat' and I can point them to my food logs :)
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aaronpk i've had people look up my flight plans to see where i'm sitting so they can get a seat nearby
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rhiaro aaronpk: that's pretty creepy
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aaronpk it was a friend
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rhiaro Depends who it is..
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aaronpk lol
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rhiaro I find posting travel plans really useful, people stop asking 'when are you home' etc
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+1108) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+522) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+236) (view diff)
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aaronpk !tell ben_thatmustbeme I filled in a bunch of the brainstorming page, would be great to get your thoughts on how alice would get a bearer token for the syndication target: http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-brainstorming
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed aaronpk: ben_thatmustbeme: skimmed the syndication discussion, will read the brainstorm
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aaronpk sweet!
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aaronpk would love to get your thoguhts since we would want bridgy publish to support this :)
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snarfed you both probably already know that bridgy publish has supported the "thin" (webmention based) method for ~1y now - checks intent via u-syndication, posts via API synchronously, returns silo post URL in wm response body
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snarfed docs: https://www.brid.gy/about#webmentions , https://www.brid.gy/about#response
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk oh does it actualy require "u-syndication" on the link?
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snarfed and yeah aaronpk i'm with you on the lighter intent-instead-of-auth idea
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snarfed yeah, for verifying intent
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snarfed didn't for a while, but now it does
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aaronpk the example in the docs doesn't have it
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snarfed https://www.brid.gy/about#security
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snarfed oh? that's a bug if so
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snarfed or elided for brevity
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snarfed i'll look
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aaronpk yeah i would expect to see it here? https://www.brid.gy/about#webmentions
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snarfed good point! will fix, thanks
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snarfed background: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/352
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aaronparecki.com edited /syndication-brainstorming (+137) (view diff)
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aaronpk made that more explicit
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snarfed aaronpk while you're here, i'm starting on https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/44 . holler if i shouldn't
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aaronpk ^^
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snarfed thx
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aaronpk oh cool, go for it!
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snarfed new computer since my original wmio work, so i'm chest deep in more ruby/bundle config breakages in the vein of https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io#troubleshooting :(
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aaronpk ooh
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aaronpk i have a process i usually use to set up ruby on a new machine
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snarfed you're on mac os x, right? remind me what you use to manage ruby versions?
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aaronpk would you like my notes?
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snarfed omg pls
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snarfed dying here :P
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rhiaro waves at moredhel
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kylewm setting up an unfamiliar environment is the actual worst
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aaronpk https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/4d84e452e94c6c12cc06
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aaronpk agreed
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moredhel waves over-enthusiastically back
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snarfed kylewm: you'd think i'd be better at it the second time…but evidently no :/
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snarfed thanks aaronpk!
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aaronpk updated with info on installing other versions of ruby https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/4d84e452e94c6c12cc06
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aaronpk snarfed: right now does bridgy publish do the verification synchronously? cause i thought it returned the twitter URL in the response
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kylewm aaronpk: yep publish is all synchronous
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snarfed for exactly that reason
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snarfed (nice side benefit that it's simpler too, but not the main reason)
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snarfed it already has to fetch the source page sync to get the post content anyway
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snarfed s/sync//
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Loqi snarfed meant to say: it already has to fetch the source page  to get the post content anyway
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aaronpk well i mean the whole thing could be done async like i described on that page
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aaronpk interesting that it wasn't a consideration for you though
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snarfed aaronpk: sure! sorry, haven't read yet. i just didn't want to impose that complexity on clients
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snarfed btw, re that gist, does wmio require <=2.1.6 ? or was that just as an example for installing multiple?
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aaronpk that was an example but i'm running 2.1.6
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aaronpk pretty sure it'll be fine on 2.2.2 but i haven't tried it yet
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snarfed ok
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aaronpk so if there isn't a concern from the syndication endpoint of needing to do the work synchronously, then that is a way simpler option
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snarfed yup
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snarfed sites can send webmentions async anyway, after publishing a post and returning to the user/client, so you can still avoid the user-facing latency
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aaronpk yeah i was more concerned with allowing the syndication target to offload that work instead of requiring it to run synchronously
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aaronpk i'd be curious to hear why you weren't worried about that
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snarfed eh you have to do the work one way or another
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snarfed if it's not user facing, what's the difference?
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snarfed oh i see, just out of the http request path
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aaronpk the server has to keep the http reequest open longer
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snarfed sure
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snarfed as long as it's optional, fine w/me
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marcus-povey.co.uk edited /User:Marcus-povey.co.uk (+1714) "Finally got around to fleshing this out..." (view diff)
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snarfed orthogonal point: we may want say a best practice is to send these syndication wms *before* other wms, and if you're doing async, maybe even wait for them to complete, so that when your other wm recipients fetch the page, they see the filled-in u-syndication links
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aaronpk i think that is written here: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#POSSE_or_Send_Webmentions_First
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snarfed ah nm you're right
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snarfed great minds
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aaronpk that was tantek :)
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snarfed i'm updating to say that if callback isn't specified, the synd target should return 200 with the synd post url in the body
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aaronpk great
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rhiaro aaronpk: if you're around, there's a micropub session just starting
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aaronpk rhiaro: i am heading out the door now
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rhiaro Aw okay
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aaronpk you'll do fine :)
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rhiaro I'm not in it
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snarfed also i think we can simplify/minimize the examples a lot more, and stress the similaries w/wm and mp over the differences
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aaronpk oh
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rhiaro heh
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snarfed that's my only other big feedback
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snarfed aaronpk++ for writing this up!
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Loqi aaronpk has 904 karma
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aaronpk snarfed: go for it!
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aaronpk snarfed: i'm also up for requiring the syndication endpoint handle it synchronously if there's enough justification
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snarfed aaronpk: heh, as expected. maybe eventually!
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aaronpk cause it greatly simplifies things
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rhiaro tbrb: https://quill.p3k.io/docs has a micropub setup walkthrough
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aaronpk so, good data point that the first implementation of this does it synchronously
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aaronpk tbrb: and when you sign in to quill.p3k.io it walks you through it in more detail with more links
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rhiaro tbrb: and I have minimal procedural micropub php http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/minimum-viable-micropub
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tbrb Thanks
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anm minimal / mini micropub = nanopub
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GWG Yay WordPress
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rhiaro anm: I think someone has said that before
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Loqi giggles
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anm Well he must have been a humourous sort of fellow. Hear hear.
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+99) "/* Alternative Possible Spec */ slight edit/typos/clarification" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /syndication-brainstorming (+680) "synchronous, bridgy publish" (view diff)
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rhiaro.co.uk edited /sandstorm (+381) "Interest to indieweb" (view diff)
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rhiaro tbrb: two minutes!
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Kongaloosh rhiaro: is there a way to follow from abroad?
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rhiaro Yeah, wake up earlier kongaloosh :p
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Kongaloosh :<
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rhiaro We've had live streams all day, but just finished
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Kongaloosh I really should have
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Kongaloosh geeze
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Kongaloosh but are they recorded?
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KevinMarks gillmor gang time
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KevinMarks anythign I should talk about?
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GWG Iran seems to be in the news
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GWG I just went to get cleaned up, and I think I figured out what I need to do to make this code cleaner.
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tantek KevinMarks - get them to play the awesome new SWAT0 video!!
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tantek I mean - you should talk about what SWAT0 is, the history, what it means etc.
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tantek and then close with the live video demo
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KevinMarks I can try but they may not get it
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tantek rhiaro: \o/ congrats on day 1
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tantek KevinMarks - uh, how can gillmor gang not get the whole ownyourdata thing?
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KevinMarks I'll give it a go
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tantek you can point out that the steps in SWAT0 are trivial on today's silos
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tantek people do it every day
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tantek but it has been a challeng to make it work *for the web*
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KevinMarks scoble is highly skilled at not getting it
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tantek you're good at this, you can totally explain how it's been much harder to make it work across websites (come from the underdog / understatement perspective)
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tantek and recognizing that users expect this kind of easy functionality, the social web acid test v0 was created at the first Federated Social Web summit
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tantek to make it clear that this kind of user-centric functionality is what's important, not a bunch of academics arguing about protocols
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tantek and that after 5 years, we are finally seeing interoperable implementations emerge because we have solved the building blocks in IndieWebCamp
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tantek we expect the progress from here to be exponential etc.
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tantek maybe practice explaining the steps of SWAT 0 in plain english before hand
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tantek using names of people on the show
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KevinMarks which is the new video?
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aaronpk i have found it very challenging to explain SWAT0 in plain english unless i can point to physical people in the room as an example
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tantek KevinMarks: top of my site!
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KevinMarks https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/14/1/swat0 is on the wiki
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aaronpk KevinMarks: https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/14/1/swat0 or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj5Z8ih4lOQ
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aaronpk i updated my post with the new version because I can do that :)
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tantek yay!
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Loqi yay!
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tantek aaronpk - challenging to explain? really?
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aaronpk without specific examples yes
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KevinMarks yay
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Loqi :D
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aaronpk it helps to point at someone and be like "you took a photo of me and tagged me in the photo"
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tantek A takes photo of B and tags them in it. C who's following A sees the photo and comments on it. Both A and B get notified of C's comment.
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aaronpk using abstract "A, B, C" or even made up names is very confusing in person
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tantek I've spoken nearly literally that prose to explain it to non-programmers
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tantek or if you like, use "I" as A, "you" as B, and name-of-someone-you-both-know as C
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aaronpk i haven't had luck with that yet
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tantek you can even gesture with your device while you explain it
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tantek yes at some point the next step will be to be able to demo on TWIG or Gillmorgang with tools *they* can use on *their* devices
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rhiaro IWCEdi is in the pub
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rhiaro !tell benwerd happy to stream IWCEdi drinks if we're still going when you get here... We're in No. 1 Grange Road
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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rhiaro Kongaloosh++ for collections at http://kongaloosh.com/e/2015/7/25/albums
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Loqi Kongaloosh has 2 karma
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KevinMarks this isn't one of those edinbrugh pubs with 3ft thick granite walls then>
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tantek KevinMarks: we're here for you if you get stuck with any other questions / explanations
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tantek when does the show start
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KevinMarks it's started
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KevinMarks talking uber
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Kongaloosh Ohh!
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KevinMarks I told them about SWAT0, now they're talking twitter
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@AlexKKearney I hacked together a little collections prototype yesterday using 'in-reply-to' #indieweb http://kongaloosh.com/e/2015/7/25/albums (twitter.com/_/status/624996026324250624)
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KevinMarks doing it on TWiG with Leo as part of the flow would be good
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tantek yes
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu re: "mostly concerned that the wiki might be out of date 2010" - if that's so, you need to speak up about it. Either use the wiki (feel free to check citations / references), or if you're concerned, *ask* - don't assume "might be out of date". Because then there's no chance of it being fixed if it is.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek rhiaro: in reading the logs - noticing a bunch of new folks here in IRC that are not yet on /irc-people - perhaps as soon as people get IndieAuth setup as part of Getting Started you can encourage them to add themselves to /irc-people ?
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rhiaro sure :)
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tantek great notes in the IRC btw
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tantek (so much logs!)
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tantek huh - /syndication-brainstorming looks way overdesigned - what's wrong with "just use h-entry + PuSH" ?
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tantek (what I successfully used to do 100% standards based syndication to Google Buzz before they shut it down)
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tantek the syndication by webmention method is an interesting hack we developed for Bridgy but I'm not sure it's a pattern to replicate
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Jeena and it is not quite clear with the news.indiewebcamp.com example what this would be for, I thought you are reinventing the old searchengine ping
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Loqi Jeena: aaronpk left you a message 4 hours, 29 minutes ago: thanks for the PRs! they are live on quill.p3k.io now! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-25/line/1437833508899
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Jeena neat aaronpk and I saw that you also added post via email
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tantek ok all caught up on the logs ...
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tantek rhiaro++ for doing an awesome job with kicking off the first IWC Edinburgh!
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Loqi rhiaro has 130 karma
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kylewm rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 131 karma
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kylewm jarofgreen++
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Loqi jarofgreen has 1 karma
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tantek jarofgreen++
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Loqi jarofgreen has 2 karma
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tantek.com edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+5) "portland/brighton was 5th annual" (view diff)
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@t 1st ever #IndieWebCamp Edinburgh off to a great start! Day 1 notes http://t.co/MUlYdLjOrg, sign up & go hack on day 2! (ttk.me t4cM1) (twitter.com/_/status/625018445357256704)
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gRegorLove Afternoon, indiewebcamp
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@meedabyte Why We All Need to Make the Internet Fun Again http://recode.net/2015/07/17/why-we-all-need-to-make-the-internet-fun-again/?utm_content=buffer230ff&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #amazing @caseorganic on #decentralization #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/625021489000108032)
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aaronpk tantek: syndication brainstorming is basically just describing what bridgy publish does
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aaronpk the first part anyway
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aaronpk h-entry + push doesn't work for selective syndication
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aaronpk you would have to make a separate feed for "syndicate these things to indienews" or "syndicate these things to twitter" and then be able to put your posts in each feed
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@Idl3 RT @meedabyte: Why We All Need to Make the Internet Fun Again http://recode.net/2015/07/17/why-we-all-need-to-make-the-internet-fun-again/?utm_content=buffer230ff&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #amazing @caseorganic on #decentralization #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/625024421665882115)
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tantek aaronpk - we should write that up then
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tantek simple standards based syndication SSBS :)
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tantek and its limitations
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Loqi [bridgy] Bowling Ball USA favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/t/status/625018445357256704)
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tantek e.g. does not support selective syndication
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aaronpk h-feed + PuSH is great for aggregators
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tantek and "publisher must support separate feeds for any syndication customization per destination"
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tantek (uh what's up with that favorite)
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aaronpk this is the problem with the IRC notifications showing the "name" in the h-card vs the URL
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snarfed URLs are often bad too though, right?
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snarfed e.g. that's exactly the problem we're fixing in https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/44
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aaronpk huh
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tantek no this is not that problem
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snarfed URLs may be better on average for indie wms, but probably worse on average for silos
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tantek the URL wouldn't really have helped
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tantek snarfed: it's a mix for Twitter - since SOME PEOPLE change their display name (ahem kylewm ;) )
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snarfed right, that's actually a somewhat common pattern
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aaronpk i don't know what you mean, that's exactly what happened tantek. @bowlingball_usa did in fact favorite your tweet, which linked to the wiki
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snarfed but not across all silos or indie sites, so maybe twitter specific
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tantek aaronpk: check that account. follows 1 person. 43.8k favorites. WTF?
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tantek snarfed: right
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snarfed this is more thought than that fave is worth
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aaronpk indeed
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snarfed :P
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tantek likely due to how Twitter chose to display names - so people messed with it to have fun
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tantek why is a bowling ball twitter faving my IWC tweet? how did they find it?
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aaronpk i thought most silos let you set your profile URL, typically it is {silo domain}/{silo username}
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tantek oh kylewm changed his display name back
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aaronpk with variations like {username}.{silo domain}
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aaronpk or if you're google, google.com/+{username}
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tantek aaronpk: *some* silos let you set your profile URL
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tantek e.g. Flickr, FB
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tantek distinct from your "user name"
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aaronpk my point is facebook is the only silo i've seen that insists on using non-username profile URLs
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aaronpk as in, in all cases except facebook, I would rather see the author URL in a noitification like that
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snarfed aaronpk: most G+ profile urls are also ids
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aaronpk ah yeah
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snarfed bridgy provides username when available. i propose NAME (USERNAME)
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aaronpk i don't use G+
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tantek yes this is an interesting design display problem
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tantek heck, everyone has this problem
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tantek at least everyone that displays /reply-context for example
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tantek would be interesting to see what approaches people are taking
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tantek see if there are any patterns emerging
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aaronpk I decided to show it as "{domain name} {name}" with the domain in blue and the name in light grey
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snarfed also sgtm
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aaronpk on my site i mean
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snarfed yeah i got it
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snarfed tantek: i'm working on https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/44 and more importantly maybe https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention.io/issues/39 imminently, if aaronpk doesn't preempt me
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snarfed …so design ideas soon would be welcome!
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tantek ah, a-ha!
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tantek some text first design I presume :)
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snarfed heh these are notifs, so text only
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Loqi [bridgy] Robin Taylor favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/t/status/625018445357256704)
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@IndieWebCampUK RT @t: 1st ever #IndieWebCamp Edinburgh off to a great start! Day 1 notes http://t.co/MUlYdLjOrg, sign up & go hack on day 2! (ttk.me t4cM1) (twitter.com/_/status/625030945377226752)
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Loqi [bridgy] IndieWebCampUK retweeted a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (https://twitter.com/IndieWebCampUK/status/625030945377226752)
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GWG snarfed: I might be a while with those unit tests. I seem to have started ripping part of Post Kinds apart.
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KevinMarks "I know, I'll make my card caching behave properly and use http 304" - me yesterday, now currently breaking into the zoo with clippers
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kylewm "Take me to your wooliest yak."
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GWG kylewm: I feel a witty reply coming in, but I'll resist it
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@chim0 mkay, my instance now sends webmentions to links in local users' notices...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (twitter.com/_/status/625036736003993601)
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KartikPrabhu loqi messages?
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 3 minutes ago: re: "mostly concerned that the wiki might be out of date 2010" - if that's so, you need to speak up about it. Either use the wiki (feel free to check citations / references), or if you're concerned, *ask* - don't assume "might be out of date". Because then there's no chance of it being fixed if it is. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-25/line/1437848607911
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KartikPrabhu fair enough. I mostly don't pay attention to search stuff as it is not relevant for me
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KartikPrabhu but I should have my facts right while anwering questions
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GWG aaronpk, how do you store your reply contexts?
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GWG Namely, the data beyond the URL.
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Kongaloosh Dumb template question: I've made a https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Kongaloosh.com, but when I go {{kongaloosh}} it points me to another template...
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Kongaloosh what am I doing wrong?
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kongaloosh.com edited /collection (+315) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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gor_zilla question: is indie auth intended to be 1 user per (sub)domain or can i use www.domain.com/profile/gorzilla ?
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gor_zilla i'm trying known running on my server and it doesn't seem to put the me tags on the root page
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gor_zilla indieweb wiki allows it, quill doesn't
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aaronpk there's a specific theme that has the links on the home page, I forget which one
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gor_zilla ah cool. i was looking for a config page for the plugin but it does it all in the background
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KevinMarks they just changed the themes I think. Solo is the one that is emant for single-user sites and puts the rel-me on the front page
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tantek Kongaloosh: the two are unrelated, e.g. see {{t}} for an example
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tantek wonders if Loqi should autolink {{t}} to https://indiewebcamp.com/Template:t in the logs the way it already links /reply to https://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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Loqi woot!
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tantek KevinMarks: how did GG go?
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kongaloosh.com edited /User:Kongaloosh.com (+750) "/* Kongaloosh */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I talked about SWAT0 and explained it, but they didn't play the video
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KevinMarks I think they'll link to it
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gor_zilla seem to be getting a blank response from the token endpoint
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gor_zilla oh i think i'll have to try again tomorrow. i'm on the train and my battery is about to die
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_fran it will die valiantly, if trying to authenticate
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gor_zilla hmm, works on the wiki but not quill. is the wiki just really forgiving or is quill extra harsh?
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/625002489943752704
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@kevinmarks that SWAT0 demo I was talking about on Gillmor Gang: https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/14/1/swat0 @stevegillmor @TinaGillmor @kteare @dbfarber @jtaschek (twitter.com/_/status/625002489943752704)
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KevinMarks I should have labelled this with the handy snark tag https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/625002952831270912
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@kevinmarks @rivenhomewood @danlyke can you make an ISO image of the CD and mount it from that? CD-ROMs are 650M, which is less than a Verge article (twitter.com/_/status/625002952831270912)
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tantek wow that's. goodness sakes.
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@TT_SemWeb 2015/Edinburgh - IndieWebCamp http://t.co/rdz9aSI0AJ, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/topic/RWW/semantic-web?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/625060773878976512)
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@blognoon 2015/Edinburgh - IndieWebCamp http://t.co/aCmlKu9m70, see more http://tweetedtimes.com/v/3112?s=tnp (twitter.com/_/status/625061318207373312)
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@idanceinbetween RT @meedabyte: Why We All Need to Make the Internet Fun Again http://recode.net/2015/07/17/why-we-all-need-to-make-the-internet-fun-again/?utm_content=buffer230ff&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #amazing @caseorganic on #decentralization #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/625062012373106688)
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snarfed hey aaronpk, i'm working on ruby again, following https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/4d84e452e94c6c12cc06
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snarfed so ruby-install installs in ~/.rubies/ for users and /opt/ruby/ for root
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snarfed …ok…and i can run ruby from either place manually
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snarfed …but how do i get bundle to use one of those instead of the system /usr/bin/ruby when i run bundle exec rake db:bootstrap ?
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aaronpk oh you might need chruby for that
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aaronpk yeah that should set the paths for things
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KevinMarks at 21 minutes into http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/25/gillmor-gang-fare-trade/
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@kevinmarks I discuss the #indieweb SWAT0 test passing at 21' into this Gillmor Gang episode http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/25/gillmor-gang-fare-trade/ (twitter.com/_/status/625078585993265152)
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@cubicgarden RT @kevinmarks: I discuss the #indieweb SWAT0 test passing at 21' into this Gillmor Gang episode http://techcrunch.com/2015/07/25/gillmor-gang-fare-trade/ (twitter.com/_/status/625078818798178305)
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snarfed aaronpk: looks like chruby will do the trick, thanks
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snarfed will update the wmio readme
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aaronpk great