#indiewebcamp 2014-06-16

2014-06-16 UTC
snarfed1, KevinMarks, gRegor`, luxagraf, dybskiy, nloadholtes and chrissaad joined the channel
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gRegor` I've got brid.gy's multiple webmentions (e.g. comment + like) displaying together now: http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#w9
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gRegor` !tell snarfed Thanks for the u-url updates on brid.gy! I've got multiple webmentions (comment + like) displaying together now: http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#w9
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: would appreciate some pointers/documentation on how you did it that? Maybe on /comments-presentation?
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gRegor` I'll be writing it up, yeah. The way I've done it may not be the most elegant, but it works for now. :)
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KartikPrabhu cool!
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gRegor` You store your webmentions in flat files, right?
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KartikPrabhu gregor`++ for multiple comment merging
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KartikPrabhu no! unfortunately not yet. I still can't figure out the best file storage
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KartikPrabhu also loqi still doesn't like you nick :P
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Loqi who, me?
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KartikPrabhu yes you Loqi!
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gRegor` He did for a while, but then stopped again.
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gRegor` Fickle
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gRegor` Oh, ok. If it's in mysql, then my method might work ok for you. Will write and we can discuss Wed too.
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KartikPrabhu neat!
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KartikPrabhu i should remember to RSVP
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Loqi yea
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GWG yawns
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Loqi [mention] http://blog.jasongreen.net/?p=208 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi snarfed: gRegor` left you a message 2 hours, 27 minutes ago: Thanks for the u-url updates on brid.gy! I've got multiple webmentions (comment + like) displaying together now: http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#w9
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+1445) "/* Processing webmentions */ Relating webmentions together" (view diff)
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/webmention#Relating_webmentions_together
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KartikPrabhu thanks :)
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gRegor` The tricky part is that you need to account for multiple u-urls, which I had not been doing.
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gRegor` I was just using the first one.
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gRegor` Bridgy favorites used to only return the twitter profile URL, since it's being scraped rather than by the API.
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gRegor` And Twitter replies were pulling in the URL linked in the profile.
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gRegor` Now bridgy returns both for Twitter replies, so I can associate the favorite and reply together
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/webmention (+73) "/* Relating webmentions together */" (view diff)
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@CaptainKurtis Has anyone seen a @gnusocial or #indiewebcamp site on a hidden service? Posting to a microblog via a tor hidden service sounds like fun. (twitter.com/_/status/478423354202796032)
jsilvestre, tobiastom, KevinMarks, LauraJ, Jihaisse, eschnou, fmarier, nloadholtes, krendil, petermolnar, Sebastien-L, glennjones, adactio, zaal, pfefferle, friedcell and tantek joined the channel
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 12 hours, 44 minutes ago: also spotted whilst feed testing: errant trailing slash in <a> on line 233 of your homepage, and no photo property on the h-card
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tantek !tell barnabywalters my content is posted in pacific time zone
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek !tell barnabywalters errant trailing slash in u-url for h-feed fixed. figuring out a photo/logo for my homepage h-card will take a bit more work / redesign / remarkup. -t
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 27 minutes ago: my content is posted in pacific time zone
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 26 minutes ago: errant trailing slash in u-url for h-feed fixed. figuring out a photo/logo for my homepage h-card will take a bit more work / redesign / remarkup. -t
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barnabywalters morning tantek
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barnabywalters pretty sure there’s no way to determine the timezone from the markup on your site — might be an idea to add timezone information in there
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barnabywalters ah he left
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barnabywalters !tell tantek RE timezone info, I can’t find a way to determine the timezone from the markup on your site, so you should add timezone information in there somewhere otherwise consuming apps are going to assume that it’s UTC
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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barnabywalters !tell tantek unless of course we want to spec out a timezone-implying algorithm based on geo lookups of data given in your h-card — likely to be complex overkill though :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 10 minutes ago: RE timezone info, I can’t find a way to determine the timezone from the markup on your site, so you should add timezone information in there somewhere otherwise consuming apps are going to assume that it’s UTC
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Loqi tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 10 minutes ago: unless of course we want to spec out a timezone-implying algorithm based on geo lookups of data given in your h-card — likely to be complex overkill though :)
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tantek barnabywalters: no it's definitely a content problem on my end
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tantek at a minimum Falcon should be fixing up the datetimes with explicit TZ info so that cosuming software doesn't have to guess at anything (or errantly assume Z)
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barnabywalters tantek: cool, sounds like a plan
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barnabywalters if you continue to use split date/time parts using value-class it’ll be another good test case — not sure I’ve ever seen separated date/time/timezone dates in the wild
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tantek indeed - I may put TZ info into an abbr too
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tantek or perhaps <data>
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tantek something like <data class="value" value="-0700">Pacific Time</data>
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tantek inside the same value-class structure as the date and time
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tantek that's my current thinking
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barnabywalters that should work out
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barnabywalters chloeweil: just testing http://chloeweil.com/notes in my feed tester — you should add authorship information, either with an h-card or rel-author link to your homepage! currently I see this: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/screen-shot-2014-06-16-at-131536.png
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chloeweil barnabywalters Thanks, will do
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barnabywalters chloeweil: btw, I *love* http://chloeweil.com/blog/i-taste-words — beautiful use of the web as a medium
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chloeweil Mmm, medium :)
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chloeweil Thanks a lot!
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barnabywalters so “medium” is a good-tasting word?
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chloeweil Depends, it’s dry steak
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tantek barnabywalters: one of the reasons I've kept postponing the TZ info is that it starts to get caught up in location related things
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tantek ideally I'd like to post in the timezone of whereever I happen to be, AND have it captured / stored /published that way
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barnabywalters tantek: what’s blocking you from doing so? can you not just write in the timezone you’re posting from when you author the post?
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tantek not sure it will roundtrip with proper fidelity from storage to Falcon to permalink markup
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barnabywalters tantek: ah yeah that’s a good point, datetimes in permalinks
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barnabywalters it’s probably safest to use a UTC version of the datetime for those, and use the local version elsewhere
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barnabywalters which is what I’m working on in my reader at the moment
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tantek the problem with using UTC version of datetimes *anywhere* that you're not actually in UTC yourself is human verifiability
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tantek it's always better to store data in the form that is most easily human verifiable
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barnabywalters tantek: human verifiability in what case? you as the author making sure the information is correct?
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tantek right - as the author/developer (per selfdogfood)
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tantek FYI to anyone who uses the AOL / AIM silo: http://o.aolcdn.com/os/memberservices/faq.html
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petermolnar > tantek: it's always better to store data in the form that is most easily human verifiable
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petermolnar I disagree: to store, store in in the way it's easiest to work with ( thus unix timestamp )
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petermolnar to display, that is a different thing
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tantek exactly
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tantek longterm data fidelity is more important than "easiest to work with"
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tantek "easiest to work with" sounds like a job for a cache
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tantek the #1 priority of storage is longterm data fidelity. all other priorities are secondary, including "easiest to work with"
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tantek or "fast"
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petermolnar you have a point
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petermolnar but we have the ISO format for that, which includes all the required data
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tantek and is less readable than separate dates and times (and timezones)
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petermolnar RFC 2822?
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barnabywalters stores ISO8601 in canonical files, uses timestamp for indexing+querying
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tantek is that the weird email datetime format? that's even worse. and not international-friendly.
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barnabywalters and, in shrewdness, stores the actual date, but computes the UTC version, which is used for indexing+querying
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tantek "actual" date?
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ben_thatmustbeme just use TAI64, thats nice and humanly readable isn't it? (sarcasm)
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry, just getting caught of up on the discussion
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barnabywalters tantek: “actual” as in the published date, with timezone, given, with some normalisations done
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barnabywalters e.g. resolving floating datetimes, capping future dates to the present
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tantek funny, I thought "actual" meant the date(time) that you "actually" wrote the event, relative to where you were
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tantek wrote the post
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tantek not sure why you'd want to cap future dates to the present either
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tantek I use future dates as a delayed posting mechanism
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barnabywalters tantek: this is for a reader — allowing posts to be in the future would allow people to “stick” posts permanently at the top of your timeline by setting the date to 9999-12-30
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ben_thatmustbeme I tend to use local time for posting (human verify) and that is the date that is indexed/how the URL is define, thought the date stored and date shown in timestamp for a post is in UTC (ISO8601). Displaying timestamps for events upcoming would certainly be something that should be in the local time for the event though
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ben_thatmustbeme ISO8601 isn't international friendly?
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petermolnar it is
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petermolnar I'd go with that one as well
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tantek barnabywalters: or you could just hide future posts in the reader too
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barnabywalters tantek: in what circumstance should legitimate future post markup ever reach a reader?
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tantek no capping needed
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: a bit of out of order in the IRC messages there. ISO8601 is fairly intl friendly (aside from the long form written unreadability). it's RFC(2)822 style dates that are not intl friendly.
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tantek might be a bug on the part of the publisher
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, i think tantek is correct, hiding them would be best. legitimate future posts markup should never reach a reader, and thus if it gets one its probably better to discard (hide)
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tantek like accidentally publishing a future post that shouldn't be shown
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tantek or timezone bugs
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: good explanation
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barnabywalters timezone bugs are exactly why I was going to cap them to the present
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KartikPrabhu should indieweb readers also do calendar things? like event reminders? then future posts woiuld be of use
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barnabywalters and there’s little point hiding things which can be seen by going to a public URL
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tantek because you don't know why they're in the future, better to just discard rather than show
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barnabywalters it’s confusing to not show things which are there
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barnabywalters tantek: all the reader knows is that they’re marked up in the feed
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ben_thatmustbeme true, but as you pointed out, sticking them to the top isn't right either, perhaps just use current timestamp if it is in the future
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: that’s exactly what I mean by capping it to the present
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barnabywalters KartikPrabhu: calendaring and inline RSVPing is on my roadmap
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ben_thatmustbeme but then what do you do with it after that (if someone corrects the error)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: exactly, that's why it's better to ignore at first
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tantek barnabywalters: the reason to hide it, despite it being visible at a public URL, is to provide a better fidelity (higher signal to noise ratio) experience
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tantek than the other site
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tantek assuming that such visible future posts are errors
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tantek or mean something you don't understand
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tantek better to just ignore them than try to "fix" them
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't like ignore, it would be extremely frustrating for a user if their favorite site has a bug that has timestamp format incorrect (switching days and months for example)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: is exactly right. e.g. my design for my own event posts involves storing them at their dt-start date and time which likely means the future
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barnabywalters given that this has not yet happened, I am hesitant to make destructive decisions without actual real world examples
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: exactly, which is my rationale behind “show what is there”
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barnabywalters tantek: events are completely different from posts
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, what about error message and setting
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ben_thatmustbeme discard vs use current for any future posts
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ben_thatmustbeme give the user control of it and it seems less like an error on your end
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barnabywalters the other option is to have a compact, dummy placeholder sayind “X future posts hidden”
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tantek "capping" will do the wrong thing for future event posts
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tantek barnabywalters: no they're not
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tantek I plan on putting them in my feed/storage along with all other posts
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tantek and they will certainly be in the future
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tantek capping them will be wrong
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: ignore is better
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tantek for most users
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barnabywalters which, when clicked, shows the posts
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tantek for those that want to see all the "bugs", then keeping future posts floated to the top is a good way to indicate a problem that they can then use to contact their favorite site and get fixed.
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barnabywalters tantek: events == h-event == should be in the future, posts == h-entry == should not be in the future
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barnabywalters tantek: I have no intention of ever capping event datetimes
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barnabywalters or showing them in the same view as posts
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barnabywalters events should certainly be published in the same place as posts, but not consumed in the same view
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tantek barnabywalters: my feed will include events as they happen,
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tantek so they'll be both h-event and h-entry
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tantek but if your reader didn't know about events explicitly, that's exactly what it would do (cap them)
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tantek the point is, your reader does not know about all possible future types of posts
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tantek an event post is just a kind of post
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tantek so you can't make such assumptions
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barnabywalters tantek: in that case there’s a difference between *published* date and *start* date
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tantek or assume you will always know when to treat things specially like that
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barnabywalters published should never be in the future
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barnabywalters start can be in the future
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barnabywalters posts are organised by published date
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tantek barnabywalters: except from a stream perspective it makes sense to show the event as it is happening
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tantek and thus organize it by start date
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tantek among other posts' published date
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tantek I'll likely do that - make them the same for the event post itself
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barnabywalters tantek: that totally makes sense, but presumably you’ll also publish the event before it happens
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tantek I might also publish a separate *note* that gives people a heads-up about an upcoming event
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barnabywalters otherwise it won’t get shown in your feed due to it being a future post
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tantek that would obviously have its own published date
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barnabywalters tantek: so what do people RSVP to? the heads-up which is shown, or the event which isn’t shown due to being a future post?
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tantek that's correct the event itself won't show up in my stream until it is occuring
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tantek it will show up in likely two other places
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tantek 1. my upcoming events box in the footer (which is currently manual)
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barnabywalters looks at actual real world examples of event posts
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ben_thatmustbeme so we are mixing arguments here of displaying events inline with posts vs displaying posts with published date in the future
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tantek 2. the sub-post of me "creating" the event will likely show up in my stream
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tantek and link to the event post in the future
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barnabywalters rather than tantek’s future-future post brainstorming ;)
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barnabywalters so here’s an example from benwerd: http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-5
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barnabywalters this is only an h-event, not also a h-entry
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: nope, not mixing, just using "events" as an example post type about how a "dumb" feed reader can't assume anything about future posts.
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tantek "dumb" meaning feed reader that only explicitly knows to handle generic things about posts like a note or article would have
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tantek rather than all post types
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barnabywalters and has a dt-published property from the time benwerd clicked “publish”, but a dt-start property about the actual event
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barnabywalters tantek: I totally want to make Shrewdness be future-post-type-friendly, but also want it to be robustly predictable
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barnabywalters which in the case of posts with a published datetime set in the future, IMO should mean capping that to the present and showing them
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ben_thatmustbeme so forget about what type of post it is, focus on the single aspect of "what do you do if you are consuming an 'item' with a date 'published' in the future". I think it obvious that no matter the type, a date published in the future is an error. Discarding leaves things too confusing for the user, just displaying at top allows for one erroneous site to take over the feed completely, and displaying with a current timestamp might cause
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ben_thatmustbeme things to be out of order from desired result
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: I am ignoring the “type” of post in order to be future-post-type friendly
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barnabywalters and focusing completely on properties
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barnabywalters e.g. published, start, end, author
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ben_thatmustbeme I think from those options, if you are going to default to (or only have one) way to handle it displaying by current timestamp seems best
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: yep, all of those cases are undesirable, but IMO showing the data which is there is less confusing and more robust
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barnabywalters it’s the least bad
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ben_thatmustbeme from UI perspective, i would default to that but also have it note that there is an error, and have a setting to select any of those 3
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: I’m certainly going to expose the information somewhere in the UI, along with the given date (if for example it *is* the datetime of an event), might also allow the user to pick what behaviour is applicable
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barnabywalters really need to see an example of this in the wild though
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ben_thatmustbeme good luck with finding that, i can't see it being too common
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ben_thatmustbeme perhaps if the TZ info isn't published and it gets assumed to be UTC that could happen
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barnabywalters ben_thatmustbeme: indeed, and for that case there is actually a way of resolving the timezone, provided the post arrived in near-real-time rather than polling: http://indiewebcamp.com/datetime#implying_timezone_from_webmentions
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brennannovak.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:Indie App Store Index.png]]""
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Jihaisse Hello
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Jihaisse A friend told me that there is an event in brighton, indie tech
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Jihaisse is it close to the indie web ?
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barnabywalters Jihaisse: yep! https://indietech.org/summit/
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barnabywalters several people from the indiewebcamp community are speaking, along with a bunch of other awesome people
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Jihaisse I saw one speacker from indieweb
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Jihaisse okay
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Jihaisse cool :)
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barnabywalters certainly go if you get the chance
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Jihaisse I didn"t get the difference between indie tech and indie web
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barnabywalters Jihaisse: indieweb is very web-publishing focused, indie tech is bigger picture/more vauge, depending on how you want to look at it :)
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Jihaisse okay
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barnabywalters aral’s written a bunch about it on https://indietech.org/
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Jihaisse I'm on it :)
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petermolnar oh, I didn't know about this, now I need to get a day off somehow
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bnvk Jihaisse: I'll be there, but speaking about FOSS design not IndieWeb stuff
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bnvk do say hi :)
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Jihaisse my friend is going to the event
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brennannovak.com edited /store (+617) "/* Ideas */" (view diff)
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bnvk Jihaisse: oh, who is that?
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Jihaisse matteo mazzeri
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Jihaisse he live in france
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brennannovak.com edited /store (-1) "/* Interface Guidelines */" (view diff)
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Jihaisse he helped organize TEDx Geneva this year
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bnvk cool
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brennannovak.com edited /store (-6) "/* Interface Guidelines */" (view diff)
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Jihaisse we are talking about creating a TEDx in Chambéry (or anywhere in Savoy)
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bnvk nice
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gRegor` !tell tantek This is minor, but I'm confused by this on this week's HWC page "Note the Minneapolis meeting is at 19:30 CDT (will sync with PDX and SF at 18:30 PDT)" Meaning the second hour will sync up with PDX/SF?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+54) "+ July 2" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /events/2014-07-02-homebrew-website-club (+3654) "Created page with "<div class="h-event vevent"> = <span class="p-name summary">Homebrew Website Club Meetup</span> = == Details == === When === <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">20..."" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+42) "/* RSVP */ rsvped" (view diff)
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@blacklightllc “@TheStreet: Social Network @LinkedIn Faces a Privacy Rights Lawsuit http://www.thestreet.com/video/12744390/social-network-linkedin-faces-a-privacy-rights-lawsuit.html [vid] #ownyourdata @katemykleseth” (twitter.com/_/status/478561801487933440)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/212038 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+79) "/* URLs */" (view diff)
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snarfed.org edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (-38) "/* Where */ fix MN link" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/27301982 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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aaronpk good morning!
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barnabywalters morning aaronpk!
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aaronpk ooh linode just launched $10/mo plans!
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/1439830846 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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npdoty I'm not sure when the gray box was added to the indiewebcamp.com front page, but I think these three positive statements are really great (your content is yours
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npdoty you are better connected
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npdoty you are in control)
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kylewm !tell npdoty yeah, those short positive statements are great! Scott Jenson reworked that page at IndieWebCamp SF earlier this year
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [mention] http://jdmcnicholas.com/blog/taking-the-plunge-into-the-indie-web/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/692860207 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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Loqi tantek: gRegor` left you a message 2 hours, 35 minutes ago: This is minor, but I'm confused by this on this week's HWC page "Note the Minneapolis meeting is at 19:30 CDT (will sync with PDX and SF at 18:30 PDT)" Meaning the second hour will sync up with PDX/SF?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/100000472173237 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek gRegor`: that's right! sounds like you interpeted it correctly :D
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gRegor` The phrasing seems weird. My first thought was "19:30 CDT isn't 18:30 PDT"
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tantek fair
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gRegor` Is anyone else coming to the MN meetup?
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tantek gRegor`: a bunch, but they're all RSVP'd on the FB event
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gRegor` Nice!
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tantek however, Portland…
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gRegor` I just tried out a FB RSVP today on the SF HWC, to see it come through on snarfed.org
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tantek aaronpk, caseorganic, dietrich - you guys doing PDX HWC this week? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club
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aaronpk oops
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek aaronpk, might want to add some URLs: http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club#URLs :)
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aaronpk man I really need a better interface for making events on my site
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tantek I'm curious what snarfed's UI is for making events on his site.
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snarfed tantek: none, authored the html manually
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tantek snarfed, nice to be in such good company :)
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snarfed i try to avoid writing code whenever possible :P
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snarfed heh, agreed!
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tantek you mean avoid writing UI code?
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tantek wait - you had to add support for the RSVP parsing and display though right?
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snarfed code in general! https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081
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snarfed rsvp parsing and display is all pfefferle's plugin
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snarfed https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-semantic-linkbacks
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snarfed between wordpress and pfefferle's plugins, i've done approximately zero work building my own CMS, which i'm unreasonably proud of
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snarfed (odd to be proud of a non-accomplishment, but meh!)
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pfefferle :)
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tantek and bridgy of course ;)
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kylewm snarfed, maybe add u-syndication around the link to the facebook event?
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snarfed heh yes, but so far that's avoided becoming a CMS
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snarfed kylewm: good point, will do
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+126) "add URLs for Portland and RSVP myself" (view diff)
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GWG I have based all my work on pfefferle 's.
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snarfed <3
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pfefferle :)
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GWG At least dependency wise
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GWG Without pfefferle and snarfed work there would be no point in what I did
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tantek snarfed - odd - I faved the POSSE copy of that no code post and it didn't seem to backfeed to the post itself: https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081
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tantek (as in, had faved *a while ago*)
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tantek https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/456913166338129921
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@schnarfed The best code I ever write is the code I avoid writing at all. (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081) (twitter.com/_/status/456913166338129921)
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snarfed GWG: aww hugs all around!
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snarfed tantek: huh, i'll look
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tantek GWG - we're all building upon the shoulders of those that built stuff before us :)
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snarfed looks like twitter itself is confused. it says 3 faves but only shows two. you're missing
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pfefferle GWG thanks :)
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tantek doesn't make our work any less special or useful or important
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GWG I merely was saluting their shoulders
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tantek I hear you. And I was saying there *was* a "point in what [you] did" :)
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GWG tantek, I would not complain if I was able to get some adoption though
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GWG My work is for me, but other people using it is nice too
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snarfed huh. i think i got an actual webmention spam
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tantek whoa
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snarfed http://localilatinoamericanomilano.it/author/dlwqle5x03/ , to https://snarfed.org/2012-11-30_facebook_to_wordpress#comment-2536853
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GWG Oy
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snarfed it actually sent a webmention. akismet caught it, but still.
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snarfed that's a milestone
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aaronpk that wasn't a pingback?!
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tantek snarfed - what is this?!? https://snarfed.org/2012-11-30_facebook_to_wordpress#comment-2452550
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GWG We have arrived?
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tantek GWG - not until it goes public
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pfefferle snarfed aaronpk might be a pingback indeed
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snarfed tantek: ugh, those are other spam akismet didn't catch. bleh.
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GWG This is why I still moderate
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aaronpk they have to be pingbacks. I can't believe we would have already reached the point of getting webmention spam.
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snarfed pfefferle: hmm, pingbacks show up differently. your plugin doesn't handle them, right?
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tantek snarfed - actually ALL the comments on there are spam
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snarfed tantek: yup
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snarfed i'll unspam the one in question
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pfefferle snarfed semantic linkbacks work for pingbacks, trackbacks and webmentions
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tantek snarfed - have you considered displaying how you got those comments? via pingback, via webmention?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/11500459/630622403699962/11500459 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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aaronpk it occurs to me that I should be logging spam pingbacks and webmentions handled by webmention.io just so we have stats
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tantek just as you currently show via Twitter or via G+ etc.
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snarfed tantek: honestly, no, i haven't
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aaronpk tantek: doesn't that go against the visible plumbing rule?
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tantek aaronpk - good point
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aaronpk i mean it's great for debugging
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snarfed nm, pfefferle was right, it was a pingback. damn, and i got all excited
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pfefferle snarfed ;)
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benwerd just discovered that he's completely broken events on his own site :|
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snarfed ruh roh
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pfefferle so, time to go home… bye bye
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aaronpk agh I can't believe indiewebcamp is next week
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benwerd looking forward to it
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gRegor` Likewise!
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bret :)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (+12) "clarify Minneapolis sync time with Pacific" (view diff)
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1032) "add 2014-07-02 HWC" (view diff)
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gRegor` Hah, that was odd (indie-visitor through lolapalooza nick changes)
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bigbluehat KevinMarks: reading your fragment posts. good stuff! :)
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KevinMarks Thank you, I hope you find it useful
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bigbluehat KevinMarks: we're working heavily with selection stuff at hypothes.is
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bigbluehat here's a few in progress attempts http://github.com/hypothesis?query=dom
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bigbluehat also, check out shepazu's http://schepers.cc/svg/svgeodata/svgeodata.html
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bigbluehat for image highlighting via fragments
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bigbluehat would love to get some collaboration goodness going among All The Things
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@fjhirsch Our content "is not secure in hands of random ephemeral startups or big silos. We should be holders of our own data." http://indiewebcamp.com/why (twitter.com/_/status/478626669381836800)
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bret looks neat bigbluehat! ill check it out when I have time
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tantek just noticed thedatahive has tweeted his own (one) post about the indieweb for the THIRD time
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KartikPrabhu THIRD! I must have seen at least 5 instances
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tantek lol
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tantek some might be retweets
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snarfed writing is hard, let's go reposseing
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tantek so when people ask why people make fun of marketing people, this is why
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tantek even worse - he hasn't bothered to follow-up to any of the TWO comments on the article
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KartikPrabhu following up on relevant comments is a good indicator of how interested someone actually is
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tantek do we need a generation 5 for people who retweet their own stuff multiple times but don't bother to follow-up to comments?
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gRegor` Hahaha
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gRegor` @shanley is trying to export her content from medium.com and running into problems. Sounds like it might be technical problems, but still another good argument for POSSE.
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aaronpk they acknowledged me once: https://twitter.com/thedatahive/status/465255212316639232
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@thedatahive Were paying attention & hope to help RT @aaronpk: @thedatahive We're working on it ;-) http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (http://t.co/SQ6yPny5t6) (twitter.com/_/status/465255212316639232)
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aaronpk hm I thought medium was supposde to have a good API for that
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aaronpk whoa when did shanley's twitter account switch to private? https://twitter.com/shanley
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bigbluehat bret: would love that! :)
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bigbluehat feel free to join #hypothes.is
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bigbluehat some familiar names in there, likely
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tantek huh?
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tantek bigbluehat - what's your domain?
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gRegor` aaronpk: She's been getting a lot of harassment from reporters
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gRegor` And, well, just a lot of people in general
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tantek gRegor`: if shanley is running into problems trying to export her content from medium.com then I fully expect to see a medium.com post from her about those problems.
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KartikPrabhu hmmm where I have i heard of @shanely before....?
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aaronpk oh sorry I should have put that comment in #indiechat
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bigbluehat tantek: http://hypothes.is/
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bigbluehat or mine personally?
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tantek yours personally, not your work / employer
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bigbluehat bigbluehat.com
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bigbluehat :)
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bigbluehat shock, right?
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tantek as work / employer sites tend to be ephemeral (especially their permalinks)
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gRegor` Hehe, yep, tantek. She will definitely be vocal about it.
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tantek bigbluehat: nice!
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bigbluehat it's nearly 15 years old by now
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tantek bigbluehat, well done. that's a good length of time to keep a site going.
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bigbluehat supports IndieAuth ;)
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tantek bigbluehat: awesome! then might as well add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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bigbluehat :)
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bigbluehat happy to
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bigbluehat tantek: when you're bored, check out userinfo.me
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bigbluehat been meaning to pitch it to all the various "camps" :)
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bigbluehat just haven't made time yet
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tantek oh boy
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bigbluehat :)
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bigbluehat need to finish the python version
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aaronpk bigbluehat: lol nice
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bigbluehat and the Firefox add-on to "catch" those urls
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aaronpk that's hilarious
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bigbluehat which bit? :)
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aaronpk email addresses as URLs
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aaronpk i still have the problem that my domain is my full name so it doesn't make sense to put anything before the @
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tantek I think this: http://user@example.com/ will just confuse users into thinking it's either a broken URL or a broken email
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tantek aaronpk - exactly
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aaronpk that's why I got parecki.com, so my email could be aaron@parecki.com instead of me@aaronparecki.com or aaron@aaronparecki.com
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bigbluehat aaronpk: me@
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aaronpk i never liked the "me@" addresses
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tantek bigbluehat: I think this pattern "http://user@example.com/" fails the initial usability considerations
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KartikPrabhu I did the me@kartikprabhu.com it is clunky for sure
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tantek KartikPrabhu: agreed
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bigbluehat does it?
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tantek yup - it's like cognitive dissonance between a web address and an email address
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aaronpk people are pretty used to x@y.z being an email address, it looks pretty strange to have http before it
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bigbluehat tantek: it's the URL for people I already know
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KartikPrabhu maybe @username.com could directly be an email address? it might need some non-trivial hoop jumping
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bigbluehat tantek: there shouldn't be dissonance
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bigbluehat we made it...accidently maybe
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tantek bigbluehat: "shouldn't be" does't matter. there is.
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bigbluehat by not building this sooner ^_^
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bigbluehat meh.
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bigbluehat it's completely doable now
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tantek email addresses are ever present, as are URLs
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tantek no it's too late now
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bigbluehat indeed
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bigbluehat we'll see :)
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tantek I mean to say - good luck :)
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bigbluehat that's better. ;)
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bigbluehat tnx
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tantek but here's the bigger question - what use-case are you trying to solve?
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tantek snarfed, aside, I was getting inconsistent results on that tweet https://twitter.com/schnarfed/status/456913166338129921 as well - it showed up as favorited for me, but then didn't list me among the favoriters.
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@schnarfed The best code I ever write is the code I avoid writing at all. (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081) (twitter.com/_/status/456913166338129921)
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snarfed tantek: yeah, that's what i saw too. silly
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tantek finally it loaded one time without showing as being favorited, so I favorited it again, reloaded, and suddently it showed my icon, count was updated
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tantek etc.
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snarfed computers, how do they work?!
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tantek I believe this is a cache inconsistency problem
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tantek one of the 2 hardest problems
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snarfed :P
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bigbluehat tantek: for me it solves a decade plus bad habbit of putting emails into browser location bars...and being disappointed
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KartikPrabhu the other being P=NP? :P
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bigbluehat plus, it obviates gravatar, etc.
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bigbluehat but, whatev's :)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: :P
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bigbluehat goes back to building
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tantek tries putting an email address into the browser bar
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tantek gets confronted with a login confirmation dialog box
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kylewm snarfed, hey I got a twitter comment on an originally-instagrammed photo, so the refetch thing at least sort of worked https://kylewm.com/note/2014/06/15/2#likes
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snarfed kylewm: yay!
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Loqi woot
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tantek bigbluehat: going to be difficult to change existing browser UI in response to email addresses in URL bars, since it doesn attempt to do something (login)
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snarfed i deployed your latest PR just now, so that's good validation
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tantek but I will agree that the current behavior is annoying/disappointing
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KartikPrabhu wasn't expecting the log in behaviour... remenants of ftp UI?
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tantek regarding obviating gravatar, I think we did that already with hcard and personal domains.
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kylewm snarfed, yay thanks!
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tantek bigbluehat: in any case, looking forward to seeing your prototype. it will be interesting to see what it feels like actually using it.
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snarfed kylewm: think we should close the issue?
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bigbluehat tantek: works now with curl :)
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bret cool :)
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kylewm snarfed: so the like on a that post was a very specific circumstance
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kylewm snarfed, need better validation before i'm ready to call it (even partially) solved :)
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snarfed kylewm: got it
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snarfed sgtm
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bret bigbluehat are you coming to indiewebcamp?
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bigbluehat when is it?
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tantek indiewebcamp.com/2014
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bigbluehat tnx!
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bret Doing one in NY and portland, they are lots of fun
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bret also bigbluehat, feel free to add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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tantek heh :)
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tantek snarfed, finally getting back to your repost example on your site - very interesting approach including listing the POSSEing thereof.
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snarfed tantek: i forgot the context. got the url handy? (and thanks!…i think. :P)
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-06#t1402065802
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bret bigbluehat oh noes: https://okfn.org/annotator/ 404d
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bret off of http://hypothes.is/what-is-it/
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snarfed tantek: that irc link looks unrelated…?
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tantek repost example "many of us have (indie retweeted),"
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tantek snarfed - wait for it to load and highlight :)
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snarfed ah, found that. the fragment goes elsewhere, to something petermolnar said
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snarfed no matter
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-06#t1402067634 i think
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snarfed there we go
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KartikPrabhu :D
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snarfed ok. heh. thanks!
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tantek wow I don't know why I was misscrolled/highlighted
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tantek thanks KartikPrabhu
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tantek has too many tabs open in various states
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KartikPrabhu now uses FFs tab groups
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tantek snarfed, you're manually reposting / POSSEing retweets right?
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snarfed nah, it's automated with https://snarfed.org/indieweb-press-this-bookmarklets-for-wordpress
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snarfed which pfefferle has packaged into a wp plugin, https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this
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tantek oh cool!
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snarfed the UI isn't as pretty as known's, but it lets you indie reply/like/repost with just two clicks, for both indie pages and silo posts
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tantek just two clicks is quite awesome
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GWG Afternoon
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snarfed afternoon!
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GWG How are things, snarfed?
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snarfed ok! you?
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GWG I am up to 3 github repositories, thanks to the Indieweb
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kylewm GWG, almost as many as aaronpk!
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snarfed heh
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snarfed i've been inspired by inbox zero and browser tabs zero. i'm now aiming for repos zero.
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GWG I had none before I joined this movement
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aaronpk snarfed: LOL! repos are not a todo item tho
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tantek snarfed, I don't think GTD said to achieve projects zero.
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gRegor` Hahaha, snarfed
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snarfed aaronpk: repos are even worse. they're not just single shot todos, they're ongoing maintennance :P
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aaronpk lol
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gRegor` aims for divide by zero
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GWG snarfed, is it?
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GWG I am enjoying chronicling my work in public
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snarfed GWG: definitely! me too
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snarfed "repos zero" was a badly oversimplified joke
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tantek is aiming for useful Twitter differentiation zero.
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snarfed but there's a kernel of truth too. working in public, definitely. but ongoing maintenance for an ever increasing set of projects can become unsustainable
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snarfed it's not the common case, but it happens
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snarfed nicely put, tantek
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tantek.com edited /repost (+714) "subheads for indieweb examples, add snarfed, more citations, dates" (view diff)
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GWG I would like to find a helper for one project
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tantek kylewm I'm confused by what is this supposed to be: https://kylewm.com/share/2014/04/14/1
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kylewm tantek, multi-repost?
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tantek that doesn't make sense
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tantek since a repost is supposed to be a post of a copy without modification
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snarfed technically he didn't modify them, he concatenated them
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tantek multi-reply makes sense because it's *one* reply to *multiple* other posts.
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tantek that's a collection post
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tantek it just so happens that the individual posts themselves are reposts
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@nstop @shanley It takes extra effort, for sure, but I find most of the indieweb principles jibe w/mine: http://indiewebcamp.com/principles (twitter.com/_/status/478647784950599681)
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kylewm collection makes senes. is the problem that i marked it up incorrectly?
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tantek is hoping that KevinMarks is engaging in a good IndieWeb dialog with Shanley.
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tantek also good: https://twitter.com/nstop/status/478647619124596736
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@nstop @shanley I evaluate the time/energy I put into using tools made by others based on both ownership & portability of my content. (twitter.com/_/status/478647619124596736)
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tantek kylewm I'm just having trouble understanding how the term "mult-repost" makes any sense
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kylewm tantek: I'm not married to it. aggregation, collection, etc. are more accurate
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tantek also this post: https://kylewm.com/share/2014/04/14/1 *embeds* a *list* (apparently datetime ordered) of other posts, and adds a line of new content as well: "I was reading some of ..."
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tantek is this a PESOS from Twitter? https://kylewm.com/note/2009/06/04/2
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tantek kylewm do you have any reposts that originated on kylewm.com?
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kylewm yeah, everything before 12/2013 is PESOS. sure let me find an example
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kylewm specifically twitter reposts?
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kylewm https://kylewm.com/share/2014/06/10/1
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tantek sure
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tantek cool
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tantek and no one has yet created a /collection page
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tantek.com edited /album (+37) "see also, linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /collection (+200) "stub with dfn, indieweb example from kylewm" (view diff)
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kylewm I sometimes repost things with ~1 line of commentary (I think that is how Tumblr works?). does that make it not a repost?
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah iirc that was the conclusion when I asked the same
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gRegor` Yeah, that's an option on tumblr's "reblog" - you can add text to it.
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tantek kylewm on Tumblr that's a comment
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snarfed commentary on reposts, likes, rsvps, etc seems ok to me
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tantek.com edited /repost (+89) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ update kylewm example" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - it's ok, it's just no longer that thing
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tantek which are more simple minimal
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tantek based on existing uses / expectations in the wild
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tantek with the exception of RSVPs, which do have a long history of comments accompanying the actual yes/no/maybe
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tantek thanks kylewm - your repost example with POSSE retweet (including link!) is very well done
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tantek nice presentation
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kylewm tantek: oh cool, I didn't realize it was considered a comment on Tumblr, comment on your own blog POSSE to the other, that's very indieweb for all being inside a silo :)
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kylewm thanks :)
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tantek is done collecting repost/retweet examples for now
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tantek on Tumblr, comments including the reply-context that is the original post in its entirety
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tantek.com created /Press_This (+76) "stub with URL to snarfed's post on IndieWeb Press This" (view diff)
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aaronpk gRegor`: i'm going to set up something like ownyourgram.com but for foursquare checkins soon if that makes any difference
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aaronpk I don't want to lose the network I have on foursquare, and the app is really good and I don't feel like re-creating the interface for myself
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aaronpk step 1 for me is to mock up the single-checkin post view on my site and also the data storage for it
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aaronpk then I'll update my micropub endpoint to be able to create those posts
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aaronpk then i'll make "yoursquare" which does the same thing ownyourgram.com does
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KevinMarks_ hm, shanley is complaining about HTML export
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gRegor` Yeah, I didn't really get that.
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KevinMarks_ looks like to PESOS from medium you'd need to download the images too, and remove ther "go to original" link from the bottom
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bret yoursquare++
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Loqi yoursquare has 1 karma
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KevinMarks_ I have foursquare piped into google calendar. do we have a term for that? PESET?
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aaronpk what is PESETAS
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Loqi PESETAS is an acronym/abbreviation for Publish Elsewhere, Syndicate Everything To A Silo http://indiewebcamp.com/PESETAS
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KevinMarks_ aha
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/rsvp/facebook/212038/675481332531191/660908551 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-06-18-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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benwerd Man, if I could only RT that Shanley tweet. Exactly bang on the money. But private.
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bret whats it say?
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benwerd It'll suffice to say she deleted her Medium account and reached a very indie web conclusion
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bret she should go indieweb!
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KevinMarks_ well, MVC is pretty indieweb
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benwerd *nod*. I like MVC, and actually really like getting it through the mail
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GWG aaronpk: How many of these do you plan on having?
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KevinMarks_ 42% of execs say they are data-driven
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KevinMarks_ only 10% follow data when it contradicts gut feeling: http://www.economistinsights.com/sites/default/files/Decisive%20Action%20-%20How%20businesses%20make%20decisions.pdf
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gregorlove.com edited /comments-presentation (+416) "/* Current Indiewebcamp Practices */ adding my implementation" (view diff)
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gRegor` GWG: I implemented that display concept I showed you a while back. http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#w9
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gRegor` Documented the basic process here: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/webmention#Relating_webmentions_together
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GWG Very nice.
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GWG gRegor`: Would you be willing to give me feedback on my display?
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GWG I'm working on another plugin
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gRegor` Sure
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GWG http://tiny.n9n.us
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GWG The grey boxes are the test displays for a response to something.
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GWG I think the backend is coming along, but I want to refine the appearance.
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GWG The grey box is the only thing I'm concerned about
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GWG The rest is not part of the same code
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gRegor` So the "Replied"under "This is a Test of a Response to a Link with Citation"?
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gRegor` At first glance, I thought the text beside the "Replied" was your response to something, not the source you were replying to.
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gRegor` "Reposted" and "Liked" seem to work ok in that context, because they don't imply more content from you.
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gRegor` I've not thought through these type of UI decisions at length, yet.
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GWG gRegor`: Would it work better if the box was under my content?
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gRegor` I think something like "in reply to" is more clear. Like kyle's: https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/06/01/1
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GWG The text is changeable
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gRegor` I don't think so, no. Generally I think it's good to put the content you're responding to first.
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gRegor` Yeah, I'm basically saying the "Replied" text seems ambiguous.
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gRegor` Otherwise I think it's good
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GWG Replied now changed to In Reply To
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GWG Once I'm satisfied, it will take work to bring this live
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gRegor` Oh, just noticed the star beside "Reposted" That usually indicates a favorite. </nitpick> :)
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GWG What symbol is good for a repost?
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GWG Before you answer...
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GWG http://genericons.com/
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GWG Here is my font set
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gRegor` Usually the two arrows pointing in a "circle", a la Twitter RT button
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KevinMarks_ http://genericons.com/#refresh maybe?
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gRegor` looks
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gRegor` I guess the refresh icon.
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KevinMarks_ or http://genericons.com/#quote
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gRegor` Or the stumbleupon phallus. Lulz.
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GWG I'm worried about the " because the blockquote usually gets styled with that
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achangeiscoming.net edited /2014/Guest_List (+322) "add myself" (view diff)
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gRegor` Yeah, repost / quote are not exactly the same. Per some discussion earlier in IRC and the wiki
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GWG How about the cloud download one?
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GWG http://genericons.com/#cloud-download
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KevinMarks_ that's a bit weird for that
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gRegor` Haha, nah
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GWG At least this is easier than choosing a font.
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gRegor` Are you using Genericons because it comes with WP?
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GWG gRegor`: No, Dashicons comes with Wordpress
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GWG http://melchoyce.github.io/dashicons/
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KevinMarks_ you could do the SVG thing
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gRegor` I think "refresh" is the best of that font. It's closest to the commonly used repost icon on twitter and tumblr
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KevinMarks_ http://thenounproject.com/term/reblog/18408/
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achangeiscoming.net edited /2014/Guest_List (-72) "fix image link" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ some varaints there: http://thenounproject.com/term/reblog/
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GWG I just found Genericons clean, simple, and common
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KevinMarks_ interesting, reblog is square, repeat is oval: http://thenounproject.com/term/repeat/
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shepazu wouldn't "share" be a better icon?
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GWG shepazu: I was using Share for Syndication
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shepazu https://www.google.com/search?q=share+icon&safe=off&espv=2&tbm=isch&imgil=yHYHbdi-yGvezM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQhK-K7_zyEc05cbz0wk4Kjab278GIW2TPd4gZMRLQhUCV001Qo%253B256%253B256%253BVeoZFMFzy2FH7M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Ftembohu.deviantart.com%25252Fart%25252FShare-Icon-in-Windows-8-282988389&source=iu&usg=__2BPj2FdetPrCPQAVSFkR6L0LWYc%3D&sa=X&ei=
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shepazu U97FMdGAqgbKlYKICw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwCw&biw=1148&bih=626#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=yHYHbdi-yGvezM%253A%3BVeoZFMFzy2FH7M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffc02.deviantart.net%252Ffs71%252Ff%252F2012%252F034%252Fb%252F4%252Fshare_icon_in_windows_8_by_tembohu-d4ohf8l.png%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ftembohu.deviantart.com%252Fart%252FShare-Icon-in-Windows-8-282988389%3B256%3B256
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shepazu ah
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GWG I'll wait for an official indieweb icon font
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shepazu heh
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KartikPrabhu SVG is the new way man!
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bret github just released their icons today
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You are welcome to implement it for me. The code is in a repository
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KartikPrabhu GWG: full directions on how I do it: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/inline-svg-icons
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GWG Right now...I'm staying as it is. Might change.
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GWG I've saved the article for now.
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KevinMarks_ the other fiddly bit is getting the PD svg out of nounproject
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KevinMarks_ as they try to charge you for it
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GWG I spent two weeks implementing a nice custom taxonomy to cover like, repost, bookmark, etc.
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GWG The icon decision should not be as hard
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jonnybarnes does anyone here happen to use IPv6?
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bret i have ipv6 at my house
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bret but my router doesnt support it
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jonnybarnes and you havent got a router that does support ipv6 because? :P
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bret $$$
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GWG My employer's VPN router doesn't, but mine does.
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bret :(
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jonnybarnes cos myhouse connection doesn't, and my little pet project tonight was getting my site accessible over IPv6 considering v6 addresses are free
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jonnybarnes I think I;ve got it set up but obviously I can't test it
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snarfed jonnybarnes: https://www.google.com/search?q=ipv6+test+server
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KevinMarks_ http://test-ipv6.com/ says I haven't
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jonnybarnes ready.chair6.net implies my site is accessible over IPv6
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jonnybarnes thoughy my VPS seemed to randomly drop v6 conectivity just before
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