#indiewebcamp 2014-06-06

2014-06-06 UTC
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2013/expenses (+742) "add [[2013]] expenses"
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Loqi
luxagraf: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 51 minutes ago: hey catching up on logs. barnaby wrote this for nominatum -> h-adr https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/8318401
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Loqi
luxagraf: kylewm left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: and I ported his code to python here https://github.com/kylewm/redwind/blob/master/redwind/locations.py
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luxagraf
kylewm: thank you! that is exactly what I was looking for.
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kylewm
luxagraf: great! all credit to barnabywalters
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aaronparecki.com
edited /2013/expenses (+365) "add direct expenses from sponsors"
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luxagraf
kylewm: I never get a suburb. otherwise my port looks pretty much like yours
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kylewm
luxagraf: I got an interesting location at the miami airport https://kylewm.com/checkin/2014/06/02/1
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luxagraf
kylewm: nice. :) how are you putting in your geo coords?
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kylewm
luxagraf: just javascript... navigator.geolocation.getCurrentPosition(function(position) {}) ... you can see my interface here https://kylewm.com/admin/new?type=checkin
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luxagraf
kylewm: cool, i like that. i need to automate my location stuff. right now i just drop a pin on a map.
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GWG
kylewm: You came to South Florida and didn't tell me?
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@davidmead
Going to be putting all notes from #RustbeltRefresh conference tomorrow on my own domain: http://davidjohnmead.com/2014/06/05/677/ #silos #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/474716580149227520)
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benwerd
finished local files.
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benwerd
I think I need a beer.
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rascul
beer is good
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benwerd
rascul: A+ to that
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benwerd
KevinMarks / KevinMarks2: thank you again for your schema hint. Invaluable, and now fully implemented.
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aaronpk
benwerd: w00t congrats!
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benwerd
aaronpk: thanks!
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aaronpk
I would buy you a beer if we were within a couple miles of each other
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GWG
aaronpk: You were the one talking about location data the other day, or am I misremembering?
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aaronpk
A few of us were I think
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aaronpk
Or you mean my GPS logs?
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GWG
I'm just wondering about the why
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kylewm
GWG: re
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kylewm
south florida, are you referring to my checkin at the miami airport? (i was there monday for about 45 minutes :)
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GWG
And you didn't say anyting?
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GWG
aaronpk: That was what I was remembering
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GWG
But..why hold so much?
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GWG
So, this was your business for a bit?
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rascul
aaronpk that stuff is nifty
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GWG
I just like this line, "Aaron Parecki is known for having tracked his location at 5 second intervals since 2008"
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: iirc aaronpk was one of the founders of GeoLoqi
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GWG
I am reading that
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KartikPrabhu
makes sense he has high spatio-temporal resolution of his location data
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GWG
I've only recently started thinking about this for myself.
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GWG
Not the five second intervals.
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GWG
But I just was working on location data for notes and trying to figure out...
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GWG
Is it for yourself or for others?
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kylewm
aaronpk: the logs to/from school on that blog post are adorable. and thank you for the update to ownyourgram for me, i was able to log in again!
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aaronpk
haha thanks
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aaronpk
Lots of parts of my site pull location data from this source, like creating new posts and things will use that to know where I am
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aaronpk
Also my site shows the local time at whatever timezone I'm currently in
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GWG
aaronpk: That feature I like.
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GWG
I was thinking of doing that.
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GWG
But I'm not a time zone hopper
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aaronpk
Do it! There's a small timezone API project on my GitHub somewhere
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kylewm
you could show whether you are asleep too!
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kylewm
so people would know whether or not to call you
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aaronpk
That would be neat
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aaronpk
Unfortunately I don't get the sleep record until after it's done
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GWG
I have so many things I'd like to do
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acegiak
morning, all
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kylewm
tzag, acegiak
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GWG
acegiak: Morning, acegiak
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GWG
I've been wanting to talk to you again
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acegiak
GWG: what about?
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GWG
acegiak: Things?
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GWG
acegiak: I am trying to make a decision, and you were able to help me clarify my thinking beforehand.
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bdesham
what's the syntax for attaching a microformat to a <meta> tag?
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KartikPrabhu
bdesham: it is generally considered a bad idea to have invisible hidden data. but you cna just use class for the meta tag too
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KartikPrabhu
microformats can be attached to any tag, as they only use classes
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bdesham
hm, I didn't realize you could put @class in <meta>
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bdesham
thanks
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KartikPrabhu
you can put class and id on any tag
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GWG
acegiak: I spent that time yesterday putting a location metabox into the taxonomy plugin and I'm still asking myself...does it belong there?
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bdesham
yeah, I knew about id, but I guess I assumed that since class is usually used for styling it was only valid on tags within the <body>
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acegiak
I'm not sure it does? but then if it's a TAXONOMY plugin do any of hte meta boxes belong in there?
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GWG
acegiak: It belongs there for one scenario
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GWG
There is one type of post that requires it
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acegiak
oh, a checkin?
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KartikPrabhu
bdesham: I forget where but Jeremy keith/adaction once wrote "classes are HTML not CSS" :)
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acegiak
then yeah we just hide it when it's not that type
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GWG
acegiak: Exactly
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GWG
acegiak: Well, people post notes with location data as well.
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bdesham
yeah that makes sense :)
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GWG
acegiak: That is why I think it sort of fits, but I deliberately was writing it without a mapping provider
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GWG
So, it is basically just the boxes to store the data.
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GWG
acegiak: The code is messed up right now anyay
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Loqi
yay!
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GWG
Loqi: Why yay?
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acegiak
because "anyay"
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GWG
Oh, typo
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GWG
anyway
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acegiak
so the problem with the location data is you don't want to pick a mapping provider so you're not sure how the boxes should be populated other than manually?
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GWG
acegiak: They are populated. With geolocation data from the HTML5 geolocation API. But there isn't reverse geolocation
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acegiak
is there a way to do a web-actiony type thing?
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GWG
I'm not sure if I should use something like Google API, or Nominatim, or what have you
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GWG
What is a web actiony type thing?
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KartikPrabhu
what is a web action
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: I know what that is
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acegiak
KartikPrabhu: beat me to the punch
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GWG
I don't know what acegiak is thinking
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KartikPrabhu
must read up on web actions as he doesn't fully know :P
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GWG
This is where I started
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acegiak
I'm trying to think if we had a markup that said "browser: please use this person's favourite reverse geolocation "
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GWG
Well, that isn't a web action.
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GWG
That is more of a plugin setting
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acegiak
yeah, perhaps the plugin needs settings
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GWG
Well, that comes later.
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GWG
I want to fix the boxes first.
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GWG
Right now, the geolocation isn't pretty
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acegiak
fair enough
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GWG
I also want to write some functions for use
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acegiak
right now: use whatever mapping provider YOU like, and then we can make it customizable in a settings page later?
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GWG
acegiak: This is my first foray into mapping, so I have none.
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acegiak
use google as default then
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GWG
acegiak: So I'm likely to go Nominatim
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GWG
Because I'm not generating actual maps.
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GWG
I just want human readable names for now
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GWG
But, that isn't my first priority
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GWG
Right now, the plugin isn't usable at all
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GWG
It is proof of concept.
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GWG
acegiak: So, next is boring but essential stuff. Prepopulation of the taxonomy with standard types
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GWG
functions that mirror common wordpress function...
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acegiak
yeah I'm gonna get your code and then I'm gonna work on the showy hidy javascript
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GWG
The problem with the second one is based on your use case
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acegiak
really?
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acegiak
you don't need to change which elements display for which types?
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acegiak
like surely you don't need a response url box for a checkin?
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GWG
acegiak: For now, it can just be ignored/left blank.
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GWG
In a check-in, the URL could be a link to the location also.
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GWG
I have boxes in my semantic comments plugin for Google Plus, Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram.
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GWG
I've never filled in the Instagram box
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GWG
It isn't applicable.
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GWG
The display information has an if empty clause
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@skry
RT @benwerd: If you enjoyed @t's awesome talk at #pdf14, head here to learn more: http://indiewebcamp.com
(twitter.com/_/status/474739972373618688)
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GWG
acegiak: For now, the issue is how to account for multiple selections, which some people want.
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acegiak
so multiple kinds for a single post?
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acegiak
or multireplies?
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GWG
Multiple kinds for a single post
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GWG
Like and Reply.
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GWG
Which I don't get, but...
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acegiak
you would do two posts?
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GWG
Why would you do both?
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GWG
I see a like as...I liked this, but I have nothing else to say.
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GWG
I see a reply as actually having something to say.
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acegiak
what if you like it and have something to say?
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acegiak
you just say so in the comment?
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GWG
Isn't that a reply?
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GWG
Yes
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GWG
I wouldn't mark it up as a like
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GWG
But that's me
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acegiak
interesting
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acegiak
I know a lot of people do that
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acegiak
but I also know people who dont?
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GWG
I think it leads to confusion.
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acegiak
GWG: how so?
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GWG
Simplicity over complexity.
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acegiak
hmm fair enough
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GWG
Either way, I want to create a function called kind_class() based on the Wordpress body_class function
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GWG
That will add the classes to anything...
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GWG
The problem is the logic of it
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GWG
Since the taxonomy, while I want to prepopulate, can be user-contributed...
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acegiak
hmm, yeah
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GWG
That's why I want to pre-populate. The pre-populated classes can be mapped, and any other classes can be based on the taxonomy slug
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acegiak
I'll pastebin how I'm generating markup based on metadata atm
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GWG
I'd like to see that.
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KartikPrabhu
!tell bear: do you know any good references on how to make a good requirements.txt where the requirements might be from a github repo to have the latest bleeding-edge stuff? trying to make by blog stuff open on github
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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post-by-email
uploaded /File:20140606-032157.jpg "Uploaded via email by =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3pera_Im=F3veis?= <contato@operaimoveis.onmicrosoft.com>"
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post-by-email
uploaded /File:20140606-032158.jpg "Uploaded via email by =?iso-8859-1?Q?=D3pera_Im=F3veis?= <contato@operaimoveis.onmicrosoft.com>"
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GWG
Is it p-like or u-like-of?
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acegiak
when I wrote it there was debate about whether or not a like should include the -of
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acegiak
so I've done both
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acegiak
and I've used a p- prefix because it's a block with a u-url <a> tag inside it
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GWG
acegiak: I'm still trying to figure out how this will integrate into themes/plugins/etc
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acegiak
yeah, same. I'm not sure what the best solution is, because structure is an important part of the metadata for indieweb stuff
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GWG
Well, iteration is probably the only way to figure it out
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acegiak
at the moment I'm trying to fix my broken tumblr posseing
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GWG
I am going home after visiting family for a few days.
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GWG
Need to do some things before returning to work.
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@felipelavinz
i would really like to see a blog search feature in @duckduckgo ... could be a nice boost for the #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/474766311181258753)
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@benwerd
Fully booked for Indie Web Camp in Portland at the end of the month. You should come too: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014
(twitter.com/_/status/474780826186424322)
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+1) "/* West */ updating numbers for West"
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adaburrows.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+301) "/* West */"
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iboxifoo, paulcp, KevinMarks2, netweb, KevinMarks, b0bg0d____, gavinc, piney0, XgF, acegiak, markmhendrickson, voxpelli, dietrich, edrex, bigbluehat, hadleybeeman, Jeena, walkah, bret, hidgw, binbasti, Garbee, jacus, etymancer, TimAbraldes and ozatomic joined the channel
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@t
#PDF14: Thanks for all the kind words about the #IndieWeb talk. Appreciated. I'll @-reply questions etc. tomorrow. (ttk.me t4WS2)
(twitter.com/_/status/474784684405043200)
sparverius, iboxifoo, paulcp, KevinMarks2, netweb, KevinMarks, b0bg0d____, gavinc, ozatomic, TimAbraldes, etymancer, jacus, Garbee, binbasti, hidgw, bret, walkah, Jeena, hadleybeeman, bigbluehat, edrex, dietrich, voxpelli, piney0, XgF, acegiak, markmhendrickson, caseorganic and dybskiy joined the channel
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snarfed
aaronpk: looking!
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aaronpk
hmm, I did add the syndication link a minute after posting the original
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aaronpk
so if bridgy scanned the original and didn't find the syndication link it wouldn't have checked again later?
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aaronpk
(I added the twitter syndication link first)
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snarfed
right now, unfortunately no
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snarfed
that's basically (imho) a bug. that issue tracks fixing it
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aaronpk
k that explains it
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snarfed
sorry. :/ kylewm is travelling right now but i think he's going to work on it when he's back
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aaronpk
I wonder if sending a webmention to bridgy could be a way to handle this? that way I could send an updated webmention to bridgy when I change the post
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aaronpk
although that means more work for me, so if you can fix it without me doing anything then that's probably better :)
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snarfed
sure! that'd be an ok workaround. i think there are similar workarounds mentioned in the issue
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snarfed
right. i'd rather recheck automatically, but i'm not yet sure how is best. we'll see
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snarfed
sorry for the trouble. feel free to cc yourself on the bug if you want to track it
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aaronpk
I closed the other one as a duplicate and referenced #171
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aaronpk
all good!
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snarfed
thanks!
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Loqi
cweiske: aaronpk left you a message 8 hours, 23 minutes ago: if you're serious about wanting to know how to run your own auth server, check out this page: http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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cweiske
when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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cweiske
!tell aaronpk: when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena
We need a way to show that a website is webmentions enabled, I never know if a comment will have the potential to be seen by the author of the blog or not at all.
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cweiske
? there will not be a webmention endpoint if it does not support webmentions
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petermolnar
should I make 88x31 pixel banner? :D
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petermolnar
the request has a point though
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barnabywalters
Jeena: is it pure coincidence that https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/33 was raised a minute ago?
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petermolnar
we're in a process that hopefully end with a lot of webmention-enabled site/service, but most of us still keep around the regular comment sections as well
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Jeena
No, I assume he reads my notes
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tobiastom
he does.
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@CharlesPulliam
I've got a brid.gy question, @schnarfed. I'd like to enable webmentions for a secondary tumblr blog rather than a primary. Suggestions?
(twitter.com/_/status/474876465498947586)
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tobiastom
oh, sorry. this was the wrong channel.
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: ooooh — hype intensifies!
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tobiastom
My intend was not to hype that think, just to link it, but here’s just no delete button :)
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tobiastom
thing.
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tobiastom
barnabywalters: did you just put that together or is that a real thing?
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barnabywalters
tobiastom: the webmention.io logo? nope, that’s aaronpk’s thing
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barnabywalters
should have attributed better, I did say it was webmention.io’s logo
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tobiastom
hm. ah, ok. why is it no where mentioned?
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tobiastom
thanks!
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tobiastom
Shouldn’t it also be mentioned somewhere inside the readme?
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barnabywalters
it is of course mentioned on the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention
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@heathbrown
RT @t: #PDF14: Thanks for all the kind words about the #IndieWeb talk. Appreciated. I'll @-reply questions etc. tomorrow. (ttk.me t4WS2)
(twitter.com/_/status/474885766565605376)
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petermolnar.eu
edited /WordPress (+679) "/* Brainstorming */"
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notizblog.org
edited /WordPress (+91) "/* Brainstorming */ added link to press-this plugin"
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luxagraf
KartikPrabhu: nice, chris coyier just tweeted your svg article
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bnvk
As per http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models I think it would neat to have a "Donate to the IndieWeb" ability
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bnvk
perhaps a mix of Gittip, PayPal, BTC, etc…
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bnvk
and then each month a rotating project could get the pot… or something along those lines
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bnvk
curious about others thoughts
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petermolnar.eu
edited /WordPress (+2095) "/* People using WordPress */"
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petermolnar.eu
edited /projects () "(-2214) user list migrated to main WordPress article ( I've merged the two sections as most of the link were overlap )"
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tantek
bnvk, I'd say any donations should first go towards covering /expenses
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tantek
then towards sponsoring the next IndieWebCamp
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bnvk
tantek: for the server and domains and such?
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tantek
right
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bnvk
totally agree
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bnvk
nice
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tantek
then if we somehow we start quickly covering sponsorships for the next (or next couple of?) IndieWebCamp(s), I like the idea of pooling donations towards a rotating project of the month or something that gets highlighted
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acegiak
I prefer those ideas to funding individual projects
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tantek
however, we should immediately document any project-specific donation links on each project's wiki page
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tantek
that way if someone finds IndieWebCamp and wants to donate to a specific project they can directly do so - no middle-man
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tantek
acegiak - I tend to agree. Disintermediation and all :)
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acegiak
is there a good way to accept donations without paypal yelling at me again?
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bnvk
tantek: that seems quite good
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singpolyma-bb10
acegiak: bitcoin/ripple? ;)
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acegiak
tantek: I just find that money needs to be kept as simple as possible or else it makes a mess of everything
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tantek
heck we can start a /donate page for donating to IndieWebCamp with perhaps some of the above as outline / discussion
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tantek
acegiak 100% agreed
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cweiske
tantek, when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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tantek
which is why we have yet to charge anyone for attending an indiewebcamp
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bnvk
tantek: I think we should
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bnvk
I think to not accept crypto currencies for donations would be foolish, despite people in this community not liking those communities
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acegiak
cweiske: what? they might not have a twitter followers list? that's kind of how indieauth works?
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tantek
cweiske - via rel=me bidirectional discovery of their twitter profile, and then it's up to you to go from there
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tantek
using whatever library or Twitter snowflake API you want to
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tantek
all IndieAuth does is confirm that the user is represented by that domain
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tantek
that's it
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tantek
you don't get any extra permissions etc. about any silo-auth
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cweiske
on http://indiewebcamp.com/Why_web_sign-in#Why_not_consume_OpenID you (or someone else) gave Simon Willison's comment as example for indieauth and against openid
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bnvk
also, patching in a easy way to accept donations was a big part of my idea for the Indie App Store… which would be more elegant / better separation for the project type donations
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cweiske
simon wanted to have access to the user's twitter followers, which he did not get via openid
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acegiak
tantek++ is best at explaining things
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Loqi
tantek has 42 karma
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cweiske
he does not get it via indieauth, too
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tantek
cweiske - he does - there are just more steps
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tantek
cweiske - also, excellent Q and we should add that to the IndieAuth FAQ
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cweiske
you can get that data via openid, too
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cweiske
openid data may contain the user's home page, so you can fetch his twitter page, too
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tantek
cweiske does anyone actually do so today?
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tantek
so "may contain" is the problem
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tantek
with indieauth / web sign-in, it is a stronger assertion
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tantek
bnvk - re: easy way to accept donations, rather than add more infrastructure (store) why not just add donation hyperlinks to project pages to start with?
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tantek
easy and simple first, more infrastructure later
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cweiske
my home page does not contain a twitter profile link, although I am registered at twitter
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barnabywalters
bnvk: e.g. add donate link/bitcoin address to http://indiewebcamp.com/Mailpile
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bnvk
tantek: yes, links on a project pages is great low hanging fruit
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tantek
if your home page does not contain a Twitter profile link, then you're likely indicating it's not a big part of your identity, hence grabbing friends/followers from there is not necessarily a good idea
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bnvk
tantek: app store is just my bigger picture starry eyed (how to make this really sustainable on a large scale) pipe dream :D
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tantek
it's better to follow such hints from users, than try to do things programmatically at all costs
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tantek
bnvk, really sustainable is almost always a result of small incremental real world steps, continuously
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tantek
perhaps towards a bigger starry eyed picture, but never let the bigger picture stop you from making incremental progress today
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tantek
"bigger starry eyed picture" also sounds like potential rationalization for architecture astronomy
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bnvk
yes, sensei, I will think more humbly next time ;)
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tantek
or feature bloat etc.
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tantek
not necessarily more humbly, just more pragmatically impatiently ;)
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bnvk
THE PEDANTRY!!!!
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tantek
all about aligning incentives :)
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cweiske
it's still not a good example why not to use openid - you can achieve the same with the openid login, and have to to extra steps with both indieauth and openid to access the twitter follower list
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tantek
and positive framing (do something *now*!) rather than limiting (humble)
#
acegiak
"the zen of indieweb"
#
tantek
though humility is a good general thing to keep in mind :)
#
bnvk
haha
#
cweiske
the following quote speaks against indieauth, because indieauth also supports multiple providers.
#
cweiske
not only against openid
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tantek
cweiske - "can achieve the same with the openid login" - but has anyone ever in the nearly 8 years of Twitter + OpenID being around?
#
tantek
cweiske - nope, OpenID has had a longer chance to show these things are doable possible deployed
#
cweiske
did anyone do with indieauth?
#
tantek
and by failing to have *even one real world example* of what you're talking about, over a MUCH longer time period = evidence that either no one cares, or it's too hard with OpenID
#
tantek
hence the "can achieve" holds little water
#
tantek
no one has achieved it - for 8 years
#
tantek
so, therefore, hypothetical
#
bnvk
aaronpk: did you get iwc.org it's own Linode?
#
acegiak
I really don't see why you would arbitrarily pick twitter as the place to go looking for a friends list?
#
cweiske
acegiak, I talk about that one quote on the why_web_sign-in page
#
cweiske
tantek, also hypothetical for indieauth
#
brennannovak.com
edited /expenses (+209) "/* Regular Expenses */"
(view diff)
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brennannovak.com
edited /expenses (+0) "/* Regular Expenses */"
(view diff)
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acegiak
cweiske: so the debate is whether or not the quote should go?
#
barnabywalters
cweiske: IMO the criticism Simon gives is valid, but the assertion above that it’s a “good reason to use IndieAuth and Twitter as a provider” has not yet been verified in the wild
dybskiy and chrissaad joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
other than the fact that indieauth appears more likely than openid to provide the consumer app with a homepage from which twitter identity can be determined
#
barnabywalters
so feel free to clarify or remove the assertion
#
cweiske
I won't. I'm the notorious openid-preferer in this circle, so I'm biased
#
tantek
the history of that quote is that the first relmeauth implementations all implemented Twitter OAuth (only) as the rel-me OAuth step
#
tantek
so it *was* technically possible to use the Twitter OAuth token that you got as part of doing relmeauth/websignin to do more things, e.g. to posse to the user's Twitter
#
tantek
and the relmeauth.php library provides this capability - with the Twitter OAuth token
#
tantek
so that's actually implemented, not hypothetical
#
tantek
and I deployed it with a UI on tantek.com/relmeauth/
#
tantek
anyone could web sign-in with their own domain, and it would only use rel-me to Twitter to auth you in as your domain, but then hold onto the token so you could use it to Tweet
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tantek
which is more than you could ever do with OpenID, or anyone ever did do
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Why_web_sign-in (+2) "/* Why not consume OpenID */ replaced “IndieAuth” with “web sign in” as IndieAuth doesn’t provide Twitter tokens whereas other web sign in implementations do"
(view diff)
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tantek
using that same Twitter OAuth token to then do a friend list Twitter API call, rather than just a Tweet API call is a trivial change to existing code
#
tantek
unlike with OpenID, there is no such even implementation, let alone deployment
#
tantek
that's why they're different
#
tantek
bbiab
#
tantek
good clarification barnabywalters
#
tantek
and good critical analysis cweiske
#
tantek
appreciated on both fronts
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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acegiak
man, I promised myself I'd write that and then go to bed and let goat simulator download overnight
kyank joined the channel
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acegiak
but now it's midnight and there's only 20 minutes left on the download...
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barnabywalters
acegiak: obv. you should spend the 20 minutes playing kerbal space program
#
@MediaFunders
@SlaughterAM @VinceDaily So many interesting talks at #PDF14 yesterday, especially the case for #indieweb by @t
(twitter.com/_/status/474921142235328513)
#
acegiak
barnabywalters: games I dont have >.<
#
acegiak
minecraft will work though
#
acegiak
wait, no, that will slow the download
#
acegiak
I'm gonna retire to bed with the laptop an dtry and think of ways to make the markup for this metadata work with wordpress themes
#
acegiak
which is a problem I wouldn't have if I could just accept "put the markup in your post content field"
#
bdesham
I feel like I should be able to do something like <meta name="author" class="p-name" content="John Smith"/>
#
bdesham
but neither of the microformats2 parsers I tried supported this. is that just because people really hate invisible data?
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cweiske
I don't hate them
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acegiak
bdesham: I don't think invisible data is a thing you should need? but I don't HATE it?
#
bdesham
me either! I understand the objection but if the only "natural" occurence of a piece of content on the page is within the <title> element...
#
acegiak
oh that's a weird but sensible use-case
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bdesham
maybe "hate" is too strong :) I just got the impression that that kind of thing is discouraged
#
acegiak
the intention is towards simplicity
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acegiak
you really don't have a byline or anything on the page content?
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barnabywalters
bdesham: the <title> element can be a microformats property
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barnabywalters
<html class=“h-entry”><title class=“p-name”>Name of the article
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barnabywalters
bdesham: also, having a string for the author is not typically very useful — most people publish a minimal h-card with at least name and url, if not photo as well.
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cweiske
all my existing pages have a meta autor element, while nearly none has an explicit author div
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barnabywalters
if you don’t want to show author information you can have a visible or hidden link to the author’s URL with rel=authro
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barnabywalters
s/authro/author
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Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: if you don’t want to show author information you can have a visible or hidden link to the author’s URL with rel=author
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bdesham
barnabywalters: I've been using <link rel="author" href="...my url..."/> <meta name="author" content="...my name..."/>
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bdesham
although I can't remember now how that duality came about
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barnabywalters
bdesham: what services consume meta name=author?
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cweiske
<meta name="author" content="Christian Weiske" /><link rel="author" href="/"/>
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cweiske
bdesham, why duality?
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bdesham
anyway, I'm trying to mark up my name for an hCard and the only places my name occurs on the page are within templates
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cweiske
it's two data points
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cweiske
your name and your url
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barnabywalters
cweiske: what services consume your meta name=author markup?
#
bdesham
so my choices are either to put class="p-name" somewhere in a template, and have an "orphaned" property on all the other pages on my site
chrissaad joined the channel
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bdesham
or else duplicate a template on this one page, requiring me to make any template changes in two places
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cweiske
I don't know which services my meta tag consume. it's the standard meta tag for authorship since html 2.x
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petermolnar
link rel=author and link rel=publisher is respected by Google in theory but only if it points to a google+ profile
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petermolnar
I don't know if it would collide with meta autohor
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petermolnar
s/autohor/author
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Loqi
petermolnar meant to say: I don't know if it would collide with meta author
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bdesham
cweiske: yeah, it just strikes me as odd (looking at it now) that one is a <meta> and one is a <link>, with the same attribute ("author") and yet different semantics
#
cweiske
it's different tags, so different semantics are ok
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bdesham
I suppose so... it seems arbitrary, though, which is which
#
cweiske
<link> should contain an url, shouldn't it?
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bdesham
if you can't remember whether <link> goes with URL and <meta> with name, or vice versa, then that's a bad sign
#
bdesham
...of course. didn't consider that at all
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barnabywalters
bdesham: http://developers.whatwg.org/semantics.html#meta-author is quite clear that the meta value should be a name, and link href should always be a URL, so there’s no overlap
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bdesham
barnabywalters: thanks
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bdesham
barnabywalters: the problem with putting a class on the <title> is that my title is something like "About Me - Benjamin Esham", and of course you can't put a <span> in there
tantek joined the channel
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barnabywalters
bdesham: yes, that is a weird case. I wonder what the reason for the inconsistency is
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tantek
checks the logs
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barnabywalters
bdesham: do you have a URL for the page you’re talking about?
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aaronpk
good morning!
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Loqi
aaronpk: cweiske left you a message 7 hours, 12 minutes ago: when someone logs in to my website via indieauth, hwo do I access the user's twitter follower list?
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barnabywalters
morning aaronpk
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aaronpk
looks like tantek already answered that?
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cweiske
that has been solved aaronpk
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bdesham
barnabywalters: well, I'm talking about http://esham.io/about, although atm there isn't any microformats stuff going on there yet
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barnabywalters
bdesham: and the challenge is where to put the “name” property?
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barnabywalters
on body > header > h1
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bdesham
yeah. right now my name is included on the page in three places, but all of those instances come from templates
caseorganic joined the channel
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bnvk
does Bridgy verfy is there is rel="syndication" before sending a webmention back to my site?
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bdesham
so I could put class="p-name" on that <h1>, and that would work fine for the "about me" page, but it would be meaningless on all the other pages on my site
#
bdesham
or else I'd forego using the template for the "about me" page, leading to duplication
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bdesham
(these are all minor problems, of course, but they offend my nerd sensibilities)
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aaronpk
bnvk: yes indiewebcamp.com and such has its own server now. I was having too many problems with my current linode and thought it'd be good to isolate those
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snarfed
bnvk: verify, no, but it does support them as an alternative to original post links in the possed post
#
aaronparecki.com
edited /expenses (+11) "force width of date column"
(view diff)
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barnabywalters
does your templating system not let you conditionally add markup depending on what page you’re rendering?
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barnabywalters
e.g. add some “is_profile_page” variable into the context which adds class=p-name to the h1
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bnvk
snarfed: cool
#
tantek
is feeling tempted to implement Twitter-aware reposts (i.e. with native retweets) and is wondeing how hard it would be, from format, to code discovery to calling Twitter API to retweet
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bdesham
barnabywalters: it might, I'm not sure. it seems like the template shouldn't care about which page it's rendering though, since these "templates" are actually more like "include the entire contents of this file"
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aaronpk
tantek: you mean you want to repost twitter things from your site, then do a native RT?
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bdesham
that might be the best way to go though
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barnabywalters
bdesham: another, slightly less clean approach would be to cheat a little and wrap the “Me” in “About Me” with an <abbr title=“Benjamin Esham”> or <data value=“Benjamin Esham”>
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petermolnar
twitter retweet:
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petermolnar
this in theory calls a native retweet
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tantek
aaronpk yes!
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bdesham
barnabywalters: heh, sneaky :)
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aaronpk
i like petermolnar's idea! goes along with your current implementation
#
tantek
petermolnar - it does, and I've implemented that as a webaction fallback on all my notes.
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barnabywalters
tantek: whenever I’ve considered it, the presentation has always been the biggest hurdle (no surprises there). limiting your reposts to third-party content only, with no added comments, should simplify things
#
barnabywalters
and keep them consistent with twitter
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tantek
but what I'm talking about is having my *server* do the POSSE retweet semi-automatically, just like my server does the POSSE tweet semi-automatically for all existing notes.
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petermolnar
(you mentioned the API, I thought you might not be aware of this, foolish me)
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tantek
barnabywalters: right, I'm specifically talking about *this* scenario: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets
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barnabywalters
bdesham: because then it’s still slightly hidden data, but the data is in the same place as the rest of the content rather than being in some other template completely
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barnabywalters
making lack of maintenance less likely
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aaronpk
has been thinking about reposts lately too
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tantek
rather than the slightly harder next scenario: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_to_Twitter
#
bdesham
barnabywalters: yeah. I kind of like this idea, thanks!
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tantek
It's one of the four "tweet actions" to do on your own site instead of Twitter
#
tantek
tweet, reply, retweet, favorite
#
tantek
right now I only do: tweet & reply on my site, and POSSE those intelligently (i.e. with threading) natively to Twitter
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acegiak
one of the things I want to do with whisperfollow work out if a post was possed to twitter and then when it then replies/reposts automatically
#
acegiak
does that action with it's posse'd tweet
#
aaronpk
interesting, I purposely left off my photo on my notes timeline, but if I start publishing RTs there I'm going to at least need the photo of the original poster
#
acegiak
like I'm currently doing with tumblr
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: me too
#
snarfed
tantek, aaronpk: as always, i have a bridge to sell you. :P https://www.brid.gy/about#like
#
acegiak
except actually, I'm only checking if the post is a native tumblr post >.<
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snarfed
only needs u-repost-of markup on your site and a manual or automatic webmention
#
acegiak
I need to A) mark up where I'm posseing to and then B) look for that markup on other's sites
#
tantek
snarfed - since I already have infrastructure/code to do direct POSSE posts to Twitter, I'm hoping it's not too difficult for me to add doing direct POSSE retweets to Twitter.
#
tantek
and without inserting another moving piece in the middle
#
aaronpk
snarfed: awesome, next step would be searching for a rel-syndication link on an indieweb post, that'd save me a step!
#
snarfed
tantek: yeah, good point. when you already have API code working, adding another call makes sense
#
tantek
got to run for a bit, but I'll leave you with this question: has anyone implemented http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets and if so could you provide permalinks to your indie repost of a tweet, and the evidence of doing so on Twitter automatically as well (rather than POSSE posting/copying the other person's tweet).
#
bnvk
Dear Facebook, Goodbye http://bnvk.me/Oes published, POSSE'd, and my escape has begun :)
#
snarfed
aaronpk: true! could have sworn i had a feature request issue for that, but maybe not
#
snarfed
!tell tantek yup, many of us have (indie retweeted), e.g. https://snarfed.org/2014-04-21_twitter-t-going-to-homebrew-website-club
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
snarfed
i think kylewm has too
#
acegiak
does anyone have a php micropub endpoint implementation that I can hack into wordpress?
#
snarfed.org
edited /Twitter (+91) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tweets */"
(view diff)
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acegiak
thanks guys
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
acegiak
Is there an mf2 equivalent to rel-syndication and is anyone using it?
#
acegiak
is bouncing from task to task
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /micropub (+286) "/* Clients */ added implementations section"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
acegiak: rel-syndication is used in mf2
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barnabywalters
indieauth/micropub implementors, please add your libraries to that page
#
barnabywalters
especially if you have a non-PHP implementation
#
barnabywalters
acegiak: u-syndication, and yes it is in use
#
aaronpk
or yes that
#
acegiak
coolios: I'll look that then
#
kylewm.com
edited /Twitter (+52) "/* POSSE Reposts of Tweets */"
(view diff)
tantek joined the channel
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Loqi
tantek: snarfed left you a message 10 minutes ago: yup, many of us have (indie retweeted), e.g. https://snarfed.org/2014-04-21_twitter-t-going-to-homebrew-website-club
#
Loqi
tantek: snarfed left you a message 6 minutes ago: more on https://snarfed.org/responses
#
snarfed
oh man, mediawiki's conflict resolution UI is baaad
#
bdesham
barnabywalters: suppose my page includes About <abbr title="Benjamin Esham">Me</abbr>. how would I mark up that title attribute as being part of an hcard?
#
snarfed
hard problem, but still
#
barnabywalters
<abbr class=“p-name” title="Benjamin Esham">Me</abbr>
#
barnabywalters
wonders if it would be helpful to have a list of elements and how they’re parsed in different circumstances
#
barnabywalters
like the microformats parsing spec but aimed at authors rather than implementors
#
bdesham
yes it would! :)
#
barnabywalters
(further disucussion in #microformats)
#
barnabywalters
bdesham: thanks! that is useful feedback
#
snarfed.org
edited /Twitter (+316) "/* POSSE to Twitter */"
(view diff)
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bdesham
barnabywalters: hmm, the tools by both you and kartikprabhu pick up "Me" as the value of the "name" property
#
bdesham
(should I take this question to #microformats instead?)
#
barnabywalters
bdesham: yep let’s debug this further there
#
snarfed.org
edited /Facebook (+317) "/* POSSE out to */ snarfed/bridgy"
(view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /silo-quits (+391) "Stubbed bnvk 2014-06 facebook silo quit"
(view diff)
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caseorganic
!tell brennannovak aaronpk and I will be in iceland dec 4-8! have you been to Blue Lagoon Geothermal Resort pool in Grindavík, Iceland?
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk
bnvk: ^
#
bnvk
caseorganic: yep, been to the Blue Lagoon a few times- I definitely recommend it. Perhaps you can help me persuade barnabywalters to come <trollface> >:]
#
barnabywalters
bnvk: the sea or nothing!
#
bnvk
haha
#
bnvk
wait, you said lakes & rivers are ok?
#
bnvk
oh, that reminds me caseorganic it's also worth going to natural geothermal rivers, they're pretty darn rad
#
caseorganic
bnvk: neat!
#
caseorganic
bnvk: good idea
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barnabywalters
bnvk: better those than factory runoff water at blue lagoon :)
#
barnabywalters
caseorganic aaronpk really looking forward to having you here!
#
caseorganic
bnvk: as long as we don't go chasing waterfalls
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barnabywalters
caseorganic: you’re a waterfall hater?
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caseorganic
bnvk: we're definitely more accustomed to rivers and lakes. you might say that's what we're used to
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bnvk
no, they just lead to the rivers and the streams that we're used to
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aaronpk
bnvk++
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Loqi
bnvk has 4 karma
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caseorganic
bnvk: great. we'll stick to those
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Loqi
bnvk has 5 karma
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barnabywalters
caseorganic: aaronpk: if you’re more into caves there are also plenty of those
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tantek
wakes up to see discussion of caves. Indie-caving?
#
tantek
invites bnvk caseorganic to #indiechat.
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caseorganic
tantek: duly noted
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caseorganic
bnvk: join #indiechat for off-indietopic community chat
#
pfefferle
snarfed do you use custom post types for that?
#
tantek
did anyone answer Jeena's question about "We need a way to show that a website is webmentions enabled" ?
#
tantek
(reframed as a how to)
#
kylewm
tantek: how would you feel about adding that note about indiechat to this channels welcome message? so no one has to kick people out
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rascul
put it in /topic
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tantek
kylewm - it's been a low level enough issue that we can keep introducing people by person / personally
#
tantek
perhaps make a note first on /IRC
#
rascul
often channels here on freenode that also have offtopic channels put it in /topic
#
tantek
also, putting things in /topic doesn't scale well
#
aaronpk
pfefferle: I still don't see the webmention icon here http://pfefferle.github.io/openwebicons/
#
tantek
in typical IRC client UIs
#
tantek
why does there need to be a webmention icon?
#
tantek
or RSS icon?
#
tantek
or even microformats icon
#
rascul
not scale well? topic here is shorter than any other channel i'm in ;)
#
tantek
for people to display on their sites?
#
tantek
rascul - yes, that's by design
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rascul
i never look at topic anyway heh
#
kylewm
can only speak for my over sensitive self but it feels a little harsh
#
tantek
kylewm - which feels harsh? the personal or impersonal approach?
#
pfefferle
aaronpk yes, have forgotton to update the page… but it is part of the font… (icon-webmention)
#
kylewm
tantek: being personally invited to leave feels harsh :)
#
pfefferle
will update the page later today if i don’t forget it ;)
#
tantek
oh dear
#
kylewm
that said, caseorganic et al know where they stand with you so probably I really am being over sensitive
#
@jjmajava
RT @kevinmarks: "@qz: Apple took another step towards obscuring the way the web works http://t.co/942qT8ChnQ" #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/474945439587119104)
#
caseorganic
kylewm: oh, i'm happy to join #indiechat! forgot it existed.
#
caseorganic
kylewm: tantek: good to put in the topic maybe? but regardless, it was a nice reminder
#
@Markotweet
RT @kevinmarks: "@qz: Apple took another step towards obscuring the way the web works http://t.co/942qT8ChnQ" #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/474946529309237248)
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kylewm
acegiak: your timezone is really +0930?
#
barnabywalters
IIRC sandeepshetty is also in a :30 timezone
#
rascul
there's a few :30 time zones and apparently one :45
paulcp joined the channel
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@nptechweekly
FYI, a story in this week’s newsletter has a bad link in it. It’s actually http://indiewebcamp.com (not .org) #nptech
(twitter.com/_/status/474950483736797184)
#
aaronpk
oops that's supposed to redirect
#
acegiak
kylewm: yeah, why
#
kylewm
fractional timezones, how exotic!
#
kylewm
acegiak: mostly checking that I parsed it correctly
#
kylewm
but also curiosity
#
aaronpk
now it does
#
acegiak
yeah. The large corporate lobbyist keep pressuring the state government to change it because "the eastern states laugh at us and our 30 minutes difference" but we like having midday be midday
#
acegiak
we don't want to have a western china situation
#
acegiak
and then there are two regions within that tiny timezone, one of which has daylight savings and one of which doesn't
#
acegiak
so yeah: it's a timezone containing less than 2 million people
emmak joined the channel
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barnabywalters
greetings emmak — is your micropub/indieauth code available? if so add it to http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Implementations!
#
kylewm
acegiak: ha yes one timezone for all of aus would be bad, but halves and quarters feels like micromanaging the sun :)
#
aaronpk
I saw a good argument for having only 2 timezones in the US
#
aaronpk
moves to #indiechat
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emmak
barnabywalters: yes, its available. i've been planning to update the wiki
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acegiak
kylewm: the problem is the sheer size of the place
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acegiak
then next timezone along is perth which is the most remote city in the world
#
luxagraf
kylewm: if i recall correctly, Nepal has a :15 zone. had a revamp my parser to handle it
#
snarfed
!tell pfefferle no custom post types for my possed retweets, favorites, etc. just categories to hide them from front page etc.
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
luxagraf
Is anyone using markdown in their notes?
#
kylewm
I am being a total american underestimating the size of other places
#
acegiak
snarfed: I'm trying to work out if I can have my actual articles "float to the top" of my feed page somehow so they don't get drowned out by all the wallspam I post
#
luxagraf
if so what do you do when POSSEing to twitter?
#
acegiak
kylewm: pretty sure it's a similar size to your country but with much less of it habitable?
#
snarfed
acegiak: sure! make a dedicated page with two shortcodes, first one to display articles, then one to display notes
#
acegiak
snarfed: this is good idea!
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snarfed
acegiak: for example, https://snarfed.org/archive has posts and then pages, and it's generated by this: https://github.com/snarfed/snarfed.org/blob/master/archive.txt
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acegiak
that is neat!
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GWG
Just got off the plane. I think I'll go home. I see I have a pull request to look at
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Loqi
GWG: acegiak left you a message 2 hours, 21 minutes ago: pull request for you: https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-taxonomy/pull/1
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acegiak
hahaha
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acegiak
yeah...
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acegiak
I was distracting myself from a shitty evening
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acegiak
I'm supposed to be sleeping
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acegiak
gnight
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GWG
acegiak, night
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GWG
snarfed, I saw your category usage in the press this plugin. You hard-coded it
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snarfed
luxagraf: i use markdown. everything automated pulls text from the generated html, though, not from the notes, which usually works ok
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snarfed
GWG: hah yes, that's a particularly rough edge
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snarfed
pfefferle's plugin is nicer, and i think it just dropped that part: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-indieweb-press-this
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GWG
I am still hoping to finish a solution that I like someday
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snarfed
go for it!
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GWG
Knowing me, I'll build it then tear it down again
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snarfed
that's how most (good) design works
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GWG
snarfed, as I have been told
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luxagraf
snarfed: so you strip html after converting?
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snarfed
luxagraf: yeah, but my needs are pretty modest. i posse articles/notes manually, and only automate replies, RTs, favorites, and event RSVPs (with https://www.brid.gy/about#publish ), and those never have meaningful HTML tags
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luxagraf
snarfed: gotcha.
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rascul
i'm still undecided if i want to use markdown for notes
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rascul
it would be nice for some things, like for bold and whatnot, but most of it i can't really see the use for in a note
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luxagraf
rascul: my main use case was for links. so I can render them in html on my site and pass just the url to twitter
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snarfed
it's kinda personal preference
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snarfed
for authoring, i find markdown *massively* easier to write
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snarfed
but it's controversial around here :P
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luxagraf
snarfed: why? because it's another layer/moving part?
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snarfed
luxagraf: why it's controversial?
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bret
i use markdown :)
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rascul
tbh i'm still undecided if i want to use markdown at all for anything
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barnabywalters
I write notes in markdown, typically manually writing HTML if I need things like properly embedded SVGs, but store and edit HTML
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luxagraf
snarfed: yeah
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rascul
i'm currently using it for articles, but i don't know that i'll keep it that way, html isn't hard for me
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snarfed
eh. people often get religious about languages, syntax, web formats and protocols, etc
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rascul
and sometimes i end up putting a bunch of html in articles anyway
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rascul
but then i'm still writing my software and don't quite have a working implementation yet ;)
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snarfed
and sometimes take DRY to an extreme (ie never want to generate derived versions of data in different formats)
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rascul
the main selling point for me to use markdown is that i can provide markdown sources, for some reason i really want to do that
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luxagraf
I generally agree with the wiki /markdown but for me readability make markdown the best for of "source".
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luxagraf
i.e. take away everything else from my entire site and you would still have something readable
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rascul
interesting point you have there, which goes along with my want to provide markdown sources
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luxagraf
but it's readable
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rascul
currently my rendered articles go to /articles/slug and markdown source is at /articles/slug.md
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rascul
rendered might not be right, converted?
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snarfed
rendered sounds fine
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luxagraf
I do think markdown gets to be a problem when you start needing some specific implmentation and 6 plugins to properly convert/render your text
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gRegor`
Apparently Tweetbot doesn't yet support Twitter's multiple photos, only showing the first one. Caused confusion when a friend only saw one photo when two were meant to be compared.
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rascul
luxagraf yeah i agree, should use standard implementations to prevent that
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rascul
there's a testsuite from daringfireball to test this stuff
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luxagraf
rascul: i think that's part of the problem though, there really isn't a standard
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luxagraf
rascul: Jeff Atwood wrote about that a while back, the need for a standardized, updated version of markdown
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luxagraf
The secret to markdown is knowing when to stop using markdown and start writing HTML
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rascul
yeah all we really have to go on is john gruber's (old?) syntax docs
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rascul
i agree with the when to stop using it also
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rascul
afaik this is the latest version of the markdown testsuite http://six.pairlist.net/pipermail/markdown-discuss/2006-June/000079.html
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rascul
i only know it exists because discount mentions it
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Jeena
tantek, "why does there need to be a webmention icon?" I was at http://mattgemmell.com/the-gift-of-writing/ and wanted to answer, there is no comment form. I wondered if I would send a webmention if it would ever get to Matt or if he would never even known about my comment on my own website. Then I had to look into the HTML source code didn't find a <link> there and then do a curl -I http://mattgemmell.com/the-gift-of-writing/ to see that he
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Jeena
wouldn't get it and I probably should use twitter or write him a email. That is a terrible UI.
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rascul
an icon could be a simple way to advertise that you accept webmentions
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tantek
Jeena - I suppose I see that as your own site's responsibility to show you in your reply posting UI
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tantek
that it would detect what you're replying to
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tantek
and do webmention endpoint discovery
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tantek
and then show you some notification - like whether or not the site you're replying to accepts webmention and/or pingback
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tantek
I feel like we've brainstormed about this somewhere already
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tantek
maybe with barnabywalters as part of the "Reply" webaction UI brainstorming
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Jeena
uhm yeah, that is not much better UI wise. I think I will try to write a browser extension like https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/humanstxt-detector/?display=en
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Jeena
but yeah I was thinking more in the lines rascul does
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bdesham
my workflow for my website doesn't use a web browser at all unless I'm previewing how a page will look. there's no "composing" page or anything like that where it would make sense to put that kind of check
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bdesham
so I agree with Jeena that tantek's solution is not always ideal
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Jeena
It just would be nice to know if if it is worth opening my reply UI or just go to twitter
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bdesham
plus, including some kind of icon that indicates that you check for webmentions is also an opportunity to teach people what webmentions are
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rascul
indeed, i had also considered that random joe might not know what the strange icon means so perhaps he would click it and find out
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Jeena
for now I will add the <form> I saw some people added and link to webmention.org in a text describing it
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gRegor`
Jeena: in the scenario where the posting UI shows no webmention support, couldn't you then select a "syndicate to twitter" option, so the recipient sees it?
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gRegor`
(coming into the convo late, sorry if I missed something)
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gRegor`
(I do kind of like the idea of a webmention icon, though.)
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Jeena
yeah but more often then not I don't even know if the person has twitter and if what username, etc.
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gRegor`
Gotcha
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Jeena
often I just click on a random link some of my friends post on Facebook or link in one of their blog posts
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gRegor`
In that case, it might be handy to have a "social media discovery" process. "This URL doesn't support webmentions, but it looks like they have a [twttier/fb/g+ links]"
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gRegor`
yeah, makes sense
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Jeena
people normally don't link their facebook to their website, and those who do mostly also implement webmentions ;)
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gRegor`
I just mean links to those on the URL you're mentioning
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gRegor`
Could be more work than necessary though, esp if they're not marked up with rel-me
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Jeena
yeah but that social media discovery would need to figure out their twitter/facebook from that url
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Jeena
that is what I mean, if they mark up with rel-me they also tend to implement webmentions
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gRegor`
Just trying to think of something easier than scrolling to the bottom of that sample link you gave to find the "follow me on twitter" link. I guess there is the share button up top
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gRegor`
Even just a list of suggested links. "These twitter links were found."
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Jeena
I still would like to know it in that place, not first after I opened my UI. Like with the Feed icon in the browser/on the website. If I don't see it I don't open my TinyTinyRSS instance and give it the URL so it could perhaps autodiscover that there is a Feed. But if I see it I know that I can subscribe.
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aaronpk
i like the idea of having an icon in my browser that shows webmention support
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aaronpk
kind of like that one that discovers microformats (we should make an updated version of that for mf2 btw)
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Jeena
yeah that would be enough for me
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bdesham
plus, don't underestimate the power of branding!
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Jeena
I already have a RSS one, a humans.txt one and microformats one.
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aaronpk
what's that cross-browser extension framework thingy?
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aaronpk
oh there are a bunch :/
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tantek
aaronpk, agreed on both a browser-extension to show webmention support on a page, and and update to the microformats browser-extension!
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tantek
bdesham - the "power of branding" did nothing for OpenID, and just confused/alienated people with XML gobbledygook when they clicked those orange RSS/XML buttons
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tantek
branding for pipes / backend tech like that is one of the mistakes of the last decade
#
tantek
in independent web development
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tantek
people in general do not care about plumbing, they care about features and experience
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tantek
feeds are not a feature. feeds are plumbing for the features of subscription, reading, etc.
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Jeena
if the alternative is to have to look into the source code, I rather see the icon
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tantek
no the alternative, as you pointed out, is to put a webmention form
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tantek
which is a functional display of the *feature* of commenting
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tantek
rather than marketing of the plumbing of webmention
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tantek
same problem with all the "Trackback" and "pingback" links
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tantek
clicking them was not useful
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Jeena
nobody suggested a webmention link
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bdesham
tantek: I was going to retort that maybe openid was just too complicated to understand to begin with... but webmentions would probably have the same problem
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tantek
Jeena - a webmention icon implies a link to webmention
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aaronpk
openid is way more complicated than webmention :)
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Jeena
no it doesn't
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tantek
Jeena - ok, I'll take your word for it - and await seeing what you mean on your site :)
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aaronpk
several of us have taken to putting something in the footer of our sites saying "this site supports webmention"
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Jeena
hehe for now I implemented the form thingy
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aaronpk
see aaronparecki.com and I forget who else
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Jeena
and a text like aaronpk is suggesting
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tantek
Jeena - right! I think you're doing the right thing.
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tantek
*doing*
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tantek
perhaps such simple text is fine
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tantek
or maybe "this site supports webmention comments"
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aaronpk
that's better
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tantek
or even "indie comments"
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tantek
leaving out the plumbing in the initial text blurb
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tantek
and only describe webmention in the longer prose
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tantek
there's no need for casual readers / users to ever worry or know about "webmention"
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tantek
just like there was never a need for them to know or wonder what "RSS" meant
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Jeena
that is why we now try to use the word Feed instad of RSS
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aaronpk
so with RSS it should have said "you can subscribe to this website", so for webmention it should say "you can comment on this post"?
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Jeena
and that is why we use the word email instead of SMTP and IMAP
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tantek
Jeena, but feed was never a feature. Feed is just an abstraction for specific feed file formats.
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tantek
aaronpk - exactly
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aaronpk
also "text" instead of "sms" or "imessage"
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tantek
*user* feature centric
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Jeena
feed it kind of a feature to me so I don't have to visit the website every day, or what do you mean
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tantek
Jeena - that's not feed, that's a *subscription*
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tantek
that's the *user* functionality. Frankly, whether that subscription is delivered by a feed or by email is still just plumbing.
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tantek
"don't have to visit the website every day" = subscription
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bnvk
aaronpk: snarfed: has there been discussion of adding a "type" field to webmentions so as to differentiate between like / favorite, share / retweet, and comment / reply ?
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tantek
bnvk - can't trust it
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aaronpk
bnvk: that's done by looking at the microformats on the page
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tantek
see all previous work on "fat pings"
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bdesham
admittedly I'm a power user, but if I saw a link saying "subscribe to this website" I *would* absolutely care whether it was RSS/Atom or email--those are totally different to me
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snarfed
bnvk: yeah, you get pretty much everything like that from the page mf2
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aaronpk
right now I show likes/reposts/comments/mentions all differently
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aaronpk
bnvk: e.g. http://aaron.pk/n4WS2 is a good example
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bnvk
right
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bnvk
I've started trying to do that as well https://brennannovak.com/essays/dear-facebook-goodbye
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Jeena
I agree with bdesham, we are not at the point that the plumbing doesn't matter. If I read subscribe I would think it would be for money and would get a PDF or something in my email.
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aaronpk
sweet!
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bnvk
but in the JSONP, there doesn't appear to be a differentiating attribute, right?
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snarfed
Jeena, bdesham: that's not really the right analogy. reading email vs using a feed reader is a real UX difference
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bnvk
unless I missed something
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tantek
bbiab!
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snarfed
the right analogy is e.g. Atom vs RSS. *that's* a plumbing difference
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Jeena
I subscribe to a feed and to a newsletter
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aaronpk
bnvk: I see what you mean. however that is the fault of the webmention.io API, not of webmention the protocol
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bnvk
right
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aaronpk
yes absolutely webmention.io should figure that out for you and include a JSON property
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bnvk
okie, how are you separating them at present? Just with the item.data.content str val?
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aaronpk
on my site you mean?
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aaronpk
take a look at the source of a "like" post, it contains a "u-like-of" property which indicates it's a like. http://pin13.net/C6H
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aaronpk
that's enough to tell whether the post is a like or a comment, no need to inspect the text
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gRegor`
aaronpk, Jeena: kylewm was another that has an HTML page on the webmention endpoint linked in the footer: https://kylewm.com/webmention
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aaronpk
ah nice! his prompt text is "Want to leave a comment? Send me a webmention!"
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Jeena
but that stills mentions the plumbing
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aaronpk
at least it's user action first
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bnvk
aaronpk: so you hit the source URL and get it from the MF data?
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bnvk
ah ok
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aaronpk
that's part of the step of verifying there's actually a link back
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aaronpk
cause you have to do that first which involves fetching the whole http page anyway, so you might as well parse it and look at the microformats
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bnvk
right… but in the case I'm just doing the lazy mans webmtion.io jsonp that doesn't quite make sense
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aaronpk
bnvk: yeah webmention.io should be doing that for you because it's already done the step of verifying the link
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bnvk
right, ok. I am understanding how this works :)
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gRegor`
aaronpk: New section on /webmention to document these HTML webmention endpoints?
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aaronpk
gRegor`: yes plz :)
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gRegor`
What should the subheading be? Endpoint display?
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bnvk
w00t
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gregorlove.com
edited /webmention (+301) "/* Implementation Notes */ +accessing endpoints in the browser section."
(view diff)
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Jeena
for a decentralized community we sure use a lot of centralized websites, webmention.io, brid.gy, indieauth.com, etc. ;)
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gregorlove.com
edited /webmention (+11) "/* accessing endpoints in the browser */"
(view diff)
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snarfed
Jeena: yeah, that's come up before
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snarfed
reuse isn't inherently bad
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snarfed
even reusing services (as opposed to e.g. libraries)
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gRegor`
OurSilosAreBetterCamp
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gRegor`
;) jk
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snarfed
open source is a key difference. you can run your own instance of all of those
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gRegor`
^ Yep, that.
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gRegor`
Good /FAQ material
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Jeena
but I have to admit to myself, without brid.gy my website would only be half as interesting. But I see it as a intermediate thing until I have the time to bake it into my own software
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snarfed
the ideal end state is that the *silos* implement mf2 and webmention, not that each of us reimplements backfeed for ourselves
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snarfed
but that won't happen
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snarfed
and again, i'm all for heavy reuse. specialization is really powerful. if you want to build your own backfeed as a learning exercise, that's great, but otherwise it's way more useful to contribute to existing project(s), or to work on something that doesn't already exist
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snarfed
(just my opinion, obviously)
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bnvk
I don't get too hung up on the 100% decent aspect, as the web itself isn't 100%… the DNS prob, but, it's good enough for the most part
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bnvk
seriously, snarfed thanks for making such a solid service ;)
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bnvk
off to a picnic!
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aaronpk
also each person can decide whether to use the services, and can switch
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aaronpk
services aren't inherently bad
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aaronpk
it's just important that people are in control of which services they use and have options to switch if they want
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gRegor`
Old websites brought back to life (via neocities): http://www.wolfgang-ziegler.com/blog/the-first-website-i-ever-built
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rascul
the first web site i built used frames and had a green background
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rascul
that's all i remember of it
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gRegor`
Checked for it on archive.org, rascul?
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gRegor`
Mine was geocities, so there's some HTML of the last revision, but no images.
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rascul
i wouldn't know how to find it
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gRegor`
Don't remember the URL?
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rascul
nope, not even who hosted it
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gRegor`
Heh
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aaronpk
my first website had a splash page with a sweet image that said "click to enter" ... green text on a black background IIRC
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rascul
likely it was geocities or tripod though, but i dunno
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rascul
that was also the first and last personal web site i built for myself heh
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gRegor`
Imagine if Yahoo would give back geocities.com
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gRegor`
s/give back/sell back/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: Imagine if Yahoo would sell back geocities.com
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gRegor`
The upcoming.org precedent. :)
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rascul
i wonder if they still have all that data stored somewhere
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rascul
yahoo/geocities i mean
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gRegor`
I doubt it, but Archive Team got all or at least most of it before it went offline.
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gRegor`
It's downloadable, if you have a spare HD. :D
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gRegor`
There's also http://www.oocities.org/ and probably others
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aaronpk
I should make squishycities like how I made my own livejournal clone called squishyjournal
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kylewm
following the discussion of /expenses this morning, is there any interest in setting up a gittip "team" to receive donations? (you would create an account based on the indiewebcamp twitter and/or indieweb github acct). could initially allocate %'s based on proportion of /expenses a given person represents
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rascul
would be nice if i could donate some monies to the indieweb
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aaronpk
rascul: cool, are you interested in supporting particular projects?
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rascul
not specifically
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kylewm
(i'm also not pushing gittip in particular, i'm just most familiar with it)
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rascul
i'd be happy donating to some indieweb group thing and letting it go where needed
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aaronpk
interesting
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aaronpk
trying to avoid yet another centralization of things if possible, but if people feel like they want to contribute to a pool then the market speaks
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kylewm
same here, no particular project, but would donate a little toward the hosting of the wiki and other common resources
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rascul
i think for this, centralization makes sense
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rascul
maybe in such a fashion where if people wanted they could donate to indieweb/bridgy for example, or just indieweb
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aaronpk
i think specific project donations should be encouraged whenever possible
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kylewm
snarfed won't accept your donation :)
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aaronpk
if that's the case then snarfed can make a "donate" page that says "donate to the indieweb pool instead!"
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aaronpk
related, I've recently gotten some beef from my accountant about accepting donations, since it turns out only non-profits can accept donations
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aaronpk
it has to be called something else, such as "pay-what-you-will software"
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aaronpk
and the money is taxed as income unless the recipient is a 501c3 non-profit
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rascul
there's a word i'm trying to remember that might fit that
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rascul
damn my horrible rememberey
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kylewm
oh that's surprising, i had no idea
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aaronpk
most people don't, until tax season comes around
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kylewm
kind of the whole point of gittip is to give money to ppl for no particular purpose
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gRegor`
rememberey, haha
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Loqi
hehe
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rascul
memory = stuff i know, rememberey = stuff i remember :)
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gRegor`
Yeah, I wouldn't mind chipping in for hosting, etc.
#
gRegor`
Yep, it totally works rascul
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rascul
i'd like to donate to some pool because i don't want to pick favorites
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kylewm
maybe indiewebcamp should become a 501c3, how hard could it be? </kidding>
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rascul
some sort of automatic monthly thing i could setup and forget about would be perfect for me :)
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aaronpk
kylewm: i've thought about it but there are many many reasons that is not as easy as it sounds
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rascul
501c3 = nonprofit?
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aaronpk
in the US yes
#
aaronpk
tax-exempt, specifically
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rascul
i have no clue what that involves heh
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gRegor`
IndieWebCamp, Inc. ;)
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aaronpk
I already have an LLC I use to accept sponsorship checks and such
#
aaronpk
I set up a gittip account, https://www.gittip.com/aaronpk/ but it still feels not quite right to accept $ there for indiewebcamp hosting
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gRegor`
Because it's gittip, or you mean the idea of accepting $ for hosting period?
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aaronpk
because it's my personal gittip
#
aaronpk
an indiewebcamp gittip is an interesting idea
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kylewm
if nothing else i'd be curious how much money it would get
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gRegor`
Do the camps usually cover all their costs with sponsors, or do you/others pay out of pocket?
#
kylewm
no one has been terrifically successful on gittip though
#
aaronpk
usually the sponsors cover all the expenses, except for the last one in portland, but that was partially my fault
#
aaronpk
so I just ate the difference on it
#
aaronpk
I guess there's no reason not to make an indiewebcamp gittip. specifically indiewebcamp, not just indieweb tho.
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aaronpk
hm there's this complicated "team" mechanism on gittip, but it seems overly complicated
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aaronpk
gonna keep it as an individutal
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rascul
if you're registered with nickserv (do so if you haven't) then you can do something like: /msg nickserv set property url http://rascul.io
#
rascul
then you can see it by /msg nickserv info rascul
#
gRegor`
Ah, good tip.
#
gRegor`
rascul++
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Loqi
rascul has 3 karma
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gRegor`
Can you set your own properties, or a pre-defined list?
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rascul
you can set whatever, see /msg nickserv help set property
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rascul
maybe i'll put that on the irc page
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bret
anyone familiar with Personal access tokens on github?
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rascul
the nickserv one isn't as fun though, people don't normally use nickserv info they're more likely to /whois
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tantek
tries to catchup on logs again!
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rascul
puts ketchup on tantek's logs
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KartikPrabhu
tried. so much discussion
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: were you able to wikify some of the discussion results?
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KartikPrabhu
which discussion results?
#
KartikPrabhu
I missed most of today morning if that's what you're asking
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tantek
!tell petermolnar re: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-06-06#t1402065802 link rel=author is respected by Google both by a direct link to a Google+ profile, OR (and preferably) by a link to your own website, which itself has rel=me to a Google+ profile.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
edited /authorship (+536) "add Silo Implementations section with Google Search"
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tantek
!tell petermolnar documented Google rel=author support here: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship#Google_Search
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com
created /rel=author (+24) "r"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Yahoo (+26) "/* Dead Silos */ add upcoming.org"
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gRegor`
Redirect to itself, tantek? Think you meant rel-author?
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tantek
where did I say redirect to itself?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: the rel=author redirects to rel=author
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tantek.com
edited /rel=author (+0) "r to rel-author"
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KartikPrabhu
good eye gregor`
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tantek
oops!
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tantek
thanks gRegor` KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu
grins profusely!
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gRegor`
Yo dawg, we heard you like rel-author . . .
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tantek
rel=author ;)
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tantek
also the whole meta name=author thing is a big a waste of time as meta keywords
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tantek
invisible and obsolete
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tantek
waste of space in your HTML
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KevinMarks
aaronpk: gittip is a bit odd as it implies a weekly commitment
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aaronpk
yes, but some people have actually said they want to contribute weekly
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aaronpk
but you're right it doesn't cover the people who want to just contribute something once
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KevinMarks
then that's a good fit
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KevinMarks
Patreon is per-thing, so might be a good fit for Camps
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tantek
perhaps split them into two sections for one-time vs. regular ?
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KevinMarks
hm, I have $12.40 on gittip. I had no idea
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aaronpk
yeah I had $25, no idea who from and didn't know about it!
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KevinMarks
someone has been sending me $0.50 a week, then $.40
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aaronpk
might be time for a /donate page on the wiki
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KevinMarks
hm, what was my bitcoin wallet password.
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rascul
sorry i can't find where i wrote it down
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rascul
oh that was a joke i forgot the smiley ;)
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KevinMarks
good job there's only .0199 BTC in it
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KevinMarks
though that is apparently now worth $13 rather than $2.65 when I last looked
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rascul
hehe i just looked it up too
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+906) "subheadings for post types supported to make it easier to link to them, clarify reply support to indicate multireply support as workaround for replying to an indieweb post and POSSE threading a reply"
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tantek
aaronpk - see my previous reference to a /donate page in the IRC logs maybe yesterday?
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tantek
is going offline for a bit
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aaronpk
will check
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Jeena
oh finally I implemented so I can reply to more then one urls at a time
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Jeena
and I moved comments to its own section, this will remove the noise from my notes
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Jeena
hm, it did send the webmentions because my own system got one https://jeena.net/notes/181 but the other two don't show them right now. I'm not sure if they're just moderated or something else went wrong.
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Jeena
I should write the responses into my log
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Loqi
definitely
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Jeena
oh, I do, and there was some error
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Jeena
ah hehe only a absolute url /webmention as a endpoint instead of https://kylewm.com/webmention need to fix it
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Loqi
[@wordyard] Links: IndieWeb optimism
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Loqi
Ouellette’s self analysis
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Jeena
ok, fixed, now I finally can add me to the wiki :)
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jeena.net
edited /multiple-reply (+269) "added my examples"
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@benwerd
RT @scottros: IndieWeb optimism by @benwerd, selfy thoughts from @JenLucPiquant, @copyranter demolishes native ads: links @wordyard http://…
(twitter.com/_/status/475056787893129216)
snarfed1 and tantek joined the channel