#indiewebcamp

2013-04-07

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# <aaronpk> tantek: that's pretty hilarious about the links on the bottom of that techcrunch article!
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# <aaronpk> so yes, the problem is syndication
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# <tantek> aaronpk - so perhaps when creating the text to POSSE out to limited content length silos like Twitter, the automatic abbreviating code needs to prioritize some number of hashtags (or amount of characters for them) over the summary of the content itself?
# <tantek> or do you as the author just have to know to put the more important hashtags in the first 100 or so characters of your notes so they automatically get included in the syndicated abbreviated text?
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# <aaronpk> my POSSE code already does prioritize hashtags when truncating, see http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2012/09/09/3/indieweb
# <aaronpk> for exactly that reason
# <aaronpk> so I found this yesterday... http://tagboard.com/indieweb
# <aaronpk> who are these guys?
# <aaronpk> whois ftw... http://seansperte.com/ and http://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdecker
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# <Loqi> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronparecki.com * moved [[Publish Then Syndicate and Replicate]] to [[2011/Publish Then Syndicate and Replicate]]
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# <Loqi> [[comment-policies]] N http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?oldid=2254&rcid=2333 * Aaronparecki.com * (+1521) Created page with "{{stub}} This page is an attempt to collect peoples' comment policies on their personal sites. === [http://aaronparecki.com/communication-protocols#commenting aaronparecki.com]..."
# <Loqi> [[comment-policies]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2255&oldid=2254&rcid=2334 * Aaronparecki.com * (+62) formatting headers
# <Loqi> [[comment]] M http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2256&oldid=2212&rcid=2335 * Aaronparecki.com * (+40) /* See Also */
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# <tantek> aaronpk - tagboard is cool!
# <Loqi> [[comment-policies]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2257&oldid=2255&rcid=2336 * Tantek.com * (+645) sites following How To Comment, IndieWebCamp Community Members
# <aaronpk> tantek: yea, it's pretty well done!
# <tantek> aaronpk - are you the only one that has implemented / follows our how to comment best practices?
# <tantek> http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
# <aaronpk> heh...
# <aaronpk> barnaby's might
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# <aaronpk> although not sure if he's sending pingbacks yet
# <tantek> !tell barnabywalters does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
# <Loqi> Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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# <Loqi> barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
# <tantek> heh
# <barnabywalters> good evening tantek
# <barnabywalters> I support everything there apart from accepting webmention and displaying mentions under the article/note (currently they are listed at /mentions)
# <tantek> I think that's close enough to add yourself and state exactly that under http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
# <barnabywalters> I think going forward I will let any pingbacks pop up automatically at /mentions, but prune the ones which get shown under the note by an intelligent whitelist/manual approval
# <barnabywalters> e.g. if you’re in /contacts, you’re okay, if I’ve mentioned you in the note you’re replying to, you’re okay
# <barnabywalters> hopefully soon: if you’re 1, 2, etc degrees of separation from me, you’re okay
# <Loqi> [[comment-policies]] ! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2258&oldid=2257&rcid=2337 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+52) /* Sites Implementing How To Comment */ added myself
# <tantek> barnabywalters - those are great ideas!
# <barnabywalters> tantek: thanks, should be fairly simple to implement most of them, esp. if I add mention machine tags to the notes
# <barnabywalters> I’m now fairly busy working for brian suda, but now I’m in an apartment I have evenings again :)
# <barnabywalters> ooh, interesting stuff in the logs RE hashtags and discoverability
# <tantek> whoa - working with Brian Suda! Awesome and get him to show up here too!
# <barnabywalters> tantek: yeah, doing a 4 month paid internship type thing. I’ll try :)
# <barnabywalters> if we can get some form of near-realtime hashtag/normaltag aggregation going, that would be super powerful
# <barnabywalters> it’d enable all sorts of cool location/topic/mention mashups
# <barnabywalters> no idea how to make something like that, but I’d guess: service which PuSH-subscribes to as many feeds it can find, then grabs any p-category/rel-tag data it can, follows XFN links and PuSH-subscribes there too
# <barnabywalters> then a simple API which makes a list of the most recent links tagged with X category, or in X location
# <barnabywalters> some UI/API for adding your own feed to the service
# <barnabywalters> it probably wouldn’t even have to hold onto the data for long — it could be fairly liberal about throwing away old data
# <Loqi> [[comment]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2259&oldid=2256&rcid=2338 * Tantek.com * (+565) /* How To */ split making/accepting comments how to. add "Addtional support" per barnabywalters's ideas from IRC
# <tantek> ok - I split up the "how to" of how to make a comment vs. accept a comment - so people can incremental support either one in whatever order makes sense for them
# <barnabywalters> thanks — that’s probably a useful clarification to have
# <tantek> since I've yet to do either, I'd appreciate if you guys that do support this review this: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Accept_a_comment
# <barnabywalters> it’s interesting that both aaronpk and I are accepting pingbacks, but not really doing anything with them
# <aaronpk> barnabywalters: I wouldn't say i'm "not doing anything" with them
# <barnabywalters> or rather, not using them as “comments” but as just as personal notifications of linkification
# <tantek> I'm writing from what we've discussed, somewhat secondhand - so I'd appreciate if you folks that have implemented accepting comments add any clarifications
# <aaronpk> I see them in realtime and store them and use to find things that mention sites I run
# <aaronpk> I like your thoughts on how to whitelist incoming pings
# <barnabywalters> okay, rephrased to: not using pingback as comments
# <barnabywalters> but as notifications — which all but removes the spam problems
# <tantek> interestingly enough - this kind of whitelisting of comments is something we discussed as an XFN use case way back in the (2003) day
# <tantek> oh my goodness, it's been over 10 years since I propose rel="friend" at SXSW Interactive 2013. wow.
# <barnabywalters> 10 year anniversary of XFN is later on this year, right?
# <tantek> right - december
# <Loqi> [[comment]] ! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2260&oldid=2259&rcid=2339 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+124) /* Make a comment */ Added microformats-2 markup suggestion
# <Loqi> [[comment]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2261&oldid=2260&rcid=2340 * Tantek.com * (+19) /* Accept a comment */ rephrase grammar a bit
# <Loqi> [[comment]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2262&oldid=2261&rcid=2341 * Tantek.com * (-10) comment, as well
# <barnabywalters> yay merge conflict
# <Loqi> [[comment]] ! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2263&oldid=2262&rcid=2342 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+115) /* Accept a comment */ grammar and order clarifications
# <barnabywalters> something I am considering adding to my display/quoting/commenting/general linking guidelines is: if you’re kind enough to link to me, please refrain from using a link shortener — they kinda break the web
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# <Loqi> [[Special:Log/patrol]] patrol * Tantek.com * marked revision 2263 of [[comment]] patrolled
# <tantek> barnabywalters - agreed - do it
# <Loqi> [[post]] !N http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?oldid=2264&rcid=2343 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+234) Created page with "{{stub}} “post” can refer to either: * A discreet piece of content (perhaps a [[note]] or and [[article]]) * The act of creating the aforementioned content ** Also used els..."
# <tantek> wait how can we have not had a [[post]] page?
# <tantek> oh, we already have http://indiewebcamp.com/posts
# <barnabywalters> ah, I’ll redirect
# <barnabywalters> I checked Post, but not plural
# <barnabywalters> although, post singular refers to the verb, which is in itself useful
# <Loqi> [[post]] ! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2265&oldid=2264&rcid=2344 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+91)
# <Loqi> [[posts]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2266&oldid=2169&rcid=2345 * Tantek.com * (+194) add disambig for post as well as posts
# <tantek> I think it made more sense just to combine the two
# <tantek> so I added the verb disambig to posts. as "posts" is also a verb, 3rd person present tense e.g. "she posts a comment"
# <barnabywalters> this is true
# <Loqi> [[posts]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2267&oldid=2266&rcid=2346 * Tantek.com * (-10) no longer a stub
# <barnabywalters> initial version of my linking/commenting/quoting display guidelines: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/
# <barnabywalters> off to eat, bbiab
# <tantek> barnabywalters - good update
# <tantek> btw re: using variants of your name, e.g. Barnaby, B. Walters
# <tantek> you could encourage use of the abbr element for those, provide an example
# <tantek> e.g. if they only want to refer/link to you by your given name in the prose of a post for brevity reasons, they can use: <a class="h-card" href="http://waterpigs.co.uk"><abbr title="Barnaby Walters">Barnaby</abbr></a>
# <tantek> say hi to briansuda!
# <Loqi> [[quoting]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2268&oldid=2052&rcid=2347 * Tantek.com * (+112) new section IndieWeb Display Guidelines with barnabywalters's display-guidelines page as an example
# <barnabywalters> tantek: ah, good catch on the <abbr> usage, I forgot that
# <barnabywalters> I’ll say hi to Biran tomorrow :)
# <barnabywalters> added (http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/#update-2013-04-07T18:45:00+00:00)
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# <Loqi> [[Twitter]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2269&oldid=2013&rcid=2348 * Tantek.com * (+932) /* POSSE to Twitter */ add POSSE to Twitter in general section with explicit listing of Twitter's limitations and thus respective POSSE strategies/guidelines
# <tantek> aaronpk - re: prioritiziing hashtags when POSSEing, included that among other general tips for POSSEing to Twitter: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter_in_general
# <Loqi> [[Twitter]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2270&oldid=2269&rcid=2349 * Tantek.com * (+144) /* POSSE to Twitter in general */ grammar
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# <Loqi> [[posts]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2271&oldid=2267&rcid=2350 * Tantek.com * (+161) /* Posts about the IndieWeb */ add tagboard for discovery
# <Loqi> [[posts]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2272&oldid=2271&rcid=2351 * Tantek.com * (+94) /* Posts about the IndieWeb */ Find stuff about the indieweb with Tagboard, Google News
# <tantek> aaronpk - do you know the Tagboard folks? They should include Flickr tags too!
# <tantek> they could easily consume Flickr's feed: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb&lang=en-us&format=atom
# <tantek> apparently Atom is the default: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb
# <barnabywalters> hadn’t come across tagboard before — nice find
# <tantek> aaronpk found it
# <tantek> I just captured it on the wiki :)
# <barnabywalters> if anyone does know the people behind it, the “post #hashtag” is the perfect place for a web action :)
# <barnabywalters> nice find aaronpk
# <barnabywalters> hey, it links to indiewebcamp.com? so they let people “own” hashtags?
# <tantek> they let people "create" tagboards, and when you create one, you can add a definition, link, and avatar for it!
# <barnabywalters> hm, that is a little concerning
# <Loqi> [[own-your-data]] N http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?oldid=2273&rcid=2352 * Tantek.com * (+114) stub, you know, in case someone might want to link here
# <tantek> barnabywalters: http://about.tagboard.com/legal
# <tantek> barnabywalters - just created: http://tagboard.com/ownyourdata
# <tantek> :)
# <tantek> and OTOH, my personal hashtag is spammed with who knows WTF is going on: http://tagboard.com/tantek
# <barnabywalters> tantek: lol, that is even funnier than the mentions for @t
# <barnabywalters> “mine” has lots of pets on: http://tagboard.com/barnaby
# <Loqi> [[principles]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2274&oldid=2131&rcid=2353 * Tantek.com * (+41) be explicit - own your data
# <Loqi> [[own-your-data]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2275&oldid=2273&rcid=2354 * Tantek.com * (+43) see also tagboard
# <barnabywalters> judging by the random bit of code echoed when I sign up, they are using PHP
# <Loqi> [[when]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2276&oldid=582&rcid=2355 * Tantek.com * (-10) make "When" redirect to always the next IndieWebCamp
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# <barnabywalters> okay, so apparently I now “own” #barnaby
# <barnabywalters> this
# <barnabywalters> is nonsense
# <barnabywalters> nice tool though
# <tantek> created http://tagboard.com/indiewebcamp
# <barnabywalters> oh wow, I can request advanced features like moderation, curation, custom styling and API access
# <barnabywalters> this unnerves me
# <Loqi> [[posts]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2277&oldid=2272&rcid=2356 * Tantek.com * (+62) Posts about indiewebcamp
# <Loqi> [[2013]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2278&oldid=2180&rcid=2357 * Tantek.com * (+108) /* Share */ blog, see what others are posting about indiewebcamp
# <tantek> oh that is funny about upgrading for moderation etc.
# <tantek> huh
# <barnabywalters> so, mixed feels about tagboard — looks like a really nice service, but tag “ownership” and potential for abuse is unnerving
# <barnabywalters> e.g. I randomly attached my URL to #barnaby — what right do I have to do that?
# <tantek> that is a bit odd
# <tantek> should be more wiki like
# <barnabywalters> although, I can’t think of a better way to handle #hashtag -> URL resolution, so I should shut up
# <barnabywalters> apart from, not doing it
# <barnabywalters> or having a reddit-style up/downvoted list of “related links”
# <tantek> well you could think of Wikipedia as such a mechanism
# <tantek> every article there is essentially a community edited description for that hashtag
# <barnabywalters> yeah, so just redirect from #hashtag -> enwp.org/Hashtag
# <barnabywalters> and let WP disambiguation handle the rest
# <tantek> right - that should be the default
# <tantek> clearly there's incentive here to create tagboards for every tag you've ever used in your notes.
# <tantek> and photos etc.
# <barnabywalters> yeah, which IMO is a problem with hashtag aggregation
# <barnabywalters> people use tags differently
# <barnabywalters> this is why rel-tag URL tag namespacing is such a good thing
# <tantek> sure - it's a problem with "owning" a hashtag
# <tantek> really the pages about hashtags should be wiki-like
# <tantek> so you can disambiguate as well
# <barnabywalters> e.g. waterpigs.co.uk/tags/music might mean a subtly (or not so) different thing to tantek.com/tags/music
# <tantek> or document different uses of hashtags for things over the years
# <tantek> barnabywalters - sure
# <tantek> and especially if they were categories of posts rather than just tags
# <barnabywalters> any hashtag aggregator puts blind faith in the fact that everyone uses tags for the same things
# <tantek> ok I'll go off and create a bunch of open related tagboards just to direct them to reasonable places
# <barnabywalters> which works okay for a subset of tags
# <tantek> well it works ok for time proximal similar usage
# <tantek> since they get clustered together by time in the stream that is displayed
# <tantek> so that's ok
# <barnabywalters> “let the tagboard.com landgrab begin” :/
# <barnabywalters> yeah, tags changing over time is another interesting one
# <Loqi> [[To-do]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2279&oldid=2051&rcid=2358 * Tantek.com * (+247) Tagboards
# <Loqi> [[To-do]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2280&oldid=2279&rcid=2359 * Tantek.com * (+58) indiewebcampuk too
# <tantek> barnabywalters - well, it seems reasonable to "land grab" anything indie web related, and link them to indiewebcamp.com wiki pages which then can be community curated.
# <tantek> solving the problem by a layer of indirection
# <tantek> :)
# <barnabywalters> communally created by anyone who owns their identity, but yes
# <tantek> right - we're setting a higher bar
# <barnabywalters> I am not against us landgrabbing even vaguely relevant stuff if we can, I just don’t think the idea makes any sense
# <barnabywalters> that is, the idea of owning a hashtag
# <tantek> sure. let's just try and make a positive thing out of it.
# <tantek> and see what happens
# <barnabywalters> positive reframing FTW! :)
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# <tantek> :)
# <Loqi> [[webactions]] ! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2281&oldid=2105&rcid=2360 * Waterpigs.co.uk * (+60) /* See Also */ Added link to webactions tagboard
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# @latrippi RT @t: Think users just want to use FB/G+/Twitter connect? Go do some user testing: http://identity.mozilla.com/post/45842909320/users-dont-like-social-login #identity #indieweb (ttk.me t ... ()
# <bretolius> was there any followup from adn to aaronpk's app.net challenge?
# <aaronpk> tantek: barnabywalters: just catching up! nice landgrab of indie/open things!
# <aaronpk> bretolius: I had a skype call with Dalton last week
# <aaronpk> I haven't had a chance to properly digest/paraphrase yet
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# <tantek> aaronpk - interesting. any quick answers to when which standards will be supported?
# <tantek> or are open standards no longer a priority for adn?
# <aaronpk> I don't feel like I can give an accurate answer quickly :/
# <tantek> aaronpk - that's not a good sign.
# <aaronpk> heh
# <tantek> either open standards are a priority or they're not. if they're a priority, then it should be obvious which ones are being worked on, in what approximate order, with approximate implementation goals.
# <tantek> if there's no idea which ones are being worked on, or any implementation date goals, then they're clearly not a priority. it's that simple.
# <aaronpk> so, user demand is definitely the driving force behind development decisions
# <tantek> can't give an answer quickly == don't know == they're not a priority
# <aaronpk> also he said App.net needs plugins to be useful
# <tantek> right, so open standards are not a priority then.
# <bretolius> it didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards in that thread
# <tantek> that's fine - that's the excuse every silo gives
# <tantek> doesn't make the harsh truth any less true: open standards are not a priority for app.net
# <tantek> "didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards" is the rationalization silos give to deprioritize standards work
# <tantek> it's a tired old excuse
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# <bretolius> adn is so strange
# <tantek> bretolius - not really. it's just a silo variant.
# <aaronpk> there are some open standards they are more interested in than others, particularly webfinger
# <bretolius> but its like they try to frame it as if its not
# <tantek> aaronpk - the flaw in the "App.net needs plugins to be useful" excuse is, well how do you define the interface for those plugins? with standards or proprietary?
# <tantek> and unfortunately we know it to be proprietary (yet another snowflake)
# <tantek> so "App.net needs plugins to be useful" is also bullshit
# <aaronpk> tantek: the answer in that case is most definitely proprietary
# <tantek> sorry, I should be more precise. bulshytt
# <barnabywalters> tantek: ??
# <tantek> http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Bulshytt
# <barnabywalters> ah, haven’t read that one yet
# <tantek> http://tantek.com/2012/126/b1/enjoyed-anathem-non-spoiler-quotes
# <tantek> barnaby, Anathem is highly recommended
# <bretolius> start a page http://indiewebcamp.com/Bulshytt listing qualifying statements from silos about how open they are
# <tantek> bretolius - brilliant!
# <barnabywalters> tantek: added to my reading list
# <Loqi> [[Bulshytt]] N http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?oldid=2282&rcid=2361 * Tantek.com * (+463) stub
# <aaronpk> omg you did it
# <aaronpk> lol
# <barnabywalters> ha ha awesome
# <aaronpk> so I can't find a mention of this online, but he did say something I'm intrigued by...
# <aaronpk> verified identity via DNS and webfinger
# <Loqi> [[Special:Log/move]] move * Tantek.com * moved [[Bulshytt]] to [[bulshytt]]: lowercase
# <bretolius> tantek, i just listened to our open source bridge talk from 2012, it was great! i especially loved the part about all the site shutdowns, in contrast with your discussion of google reader... how apropos, even though you didnt know at the time
# <aaronpk> I should ask him about how that's different from relmeauth
# <Loqi> definitely
# <tantek> thanks bretolius!
# <tantek> is that the podcast from the Rise of the Indie Web talk at OSBridge 2012?
# <tantek> do we have place for podcasts on IndieWebCamp.com?
# <tantek> aaronpk?
# <bretolius> Rise of the web yeah
# <tantek> bbiab
# <aaronpk> ooh, good thinking
# <bretolius> indie web*
# <barnabywalters> hm, not sure I’ve listened to that one
# <tantek> ok, off for a bit. I'll leave that creation to you guys :)
# <bretolius> http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/916
# <barnabywalters> cheers bretolius
# <bretolius> :)
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# <aaronpk> hah! I don't know how this is the first time I've seen this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
# <tommorris> morning aaronpk! ;)
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# <Loqi> [[bulshytt]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2285&oldid=2283&rcid=2363 * Tantek.com * (+4) link silos
# <Loqi> [[silo]] http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?diff=2286&oldid=2171&rcid=2364 * Tantek.com * (+15) see also
# <bretolius> I'm a fan of the name chiclets for social buttons... it will make a perfect cousin to the term spam. Im going to start referring to them as such
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# <tantek> ooh I just recently refound classic indiewebesque Zeldman post on Flickr: http://www.zeldman.com/2006/06/27/flickd-away/
# <tantek> indiewebcampers - I'm likely going to give a 5 minute talk on open formats and data longevity tomorrow at a Sensored meetup in SF
# <tantek> I'm thinking of giving an overview from this blog post almost 7 years ago:
# <tantek> http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html#d17t2231
# <tantek> I'm wondering if anyone here has any suggested updates?
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# <bretolius> Flickr still has an extremely steep price, especially in 2013... i think it scares a lot of people over to facebook
# <tantek> cheaper than a cell phone subscription
# <tantek> I don't think the price scares people to FB, I think FB draws people in via convenience, easy UI, speed, everpresence on apps/sites etc.
# <bretolius> It seems to me that if they could at least match facebooks unlimited, non-fullsize images that more people would rely on it as a social tool. the 200 photo limit makes it more of a try before you buy. Thats just my impression though, I dont really know
# <bretolius> I personally don't mind the price, but I rarely meet people my age with a pro account
# <tommorris> my problem with Flickr Pro is I pay for it and then end up not using it
# <tommorris> I tend to now use Wikimedia Commons for my CC pics, partly because I trust Wikimedia to make decisions based on the best interests of the web more than I do Yahoo (cf. GeoCities)
# <bretolius> yeah, i try not to think about flickrs parent company
# <bretolius> :/
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