#indiewebcamp

2013-04-07

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aaronpk
tantek: that's pretty hilarious about the links on the bottom of that techcrunch article!
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aaronpk
so yes, the problem is syndication
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tantek
aaronpk - so perhaps when creating the text to POSSE out to limited content length silos like Twitter, the automatic abbreviating code needs to prioritize some number of hashtags (or amount of characters for them) over the summary of the content itself?
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tantek
or do you as the author just have to know to put the more important hashtags in the first 100 or so characters of your notes so they automatically get included in the syndicated abbreviated text?
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aaronpk
my POSSE code already does prioritize hashtags when truncating, see http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2012/09/09/3/indieweb
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aaronpk
for exactly that reason
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aaronpk
so I found this yesterday... http://tagboard.com/indieweb
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aaronpk
who are these guys?
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aaronpk
whois ftw... http://seansperte.com/ and http://www.linkedin.com/in/joshdecker
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Aaronparecki.com * moved [[Publish Then Syndicate and Replicate]] to [[2011/Publish Then Syndicate and Replicate]]
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aaronparecki.com
created /comment-policies (+1521) "Created page with "{{stub}} This page is an attempt to collect peoples' comment policies on their personal sites. === [http://aaronparecki.com/communication-protocols#commenting aaronparecki.com]..."" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /comment-policies (+62) "formatting headers" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /comment (+40) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - tagboard is cool!
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tantek.com
edited /comment-policies (+645) "sites following How To Comment, IndieWebCamp Community Members" (view diff)
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aaronpk
tantek: yea, it's pretty well done!
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tantek
aaronpk - are you the only one that has implemented / follows our how to comment best practices?
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tantek
http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
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aaronpk
heh...
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aaronpk
barnaby's might
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aaronpk
although not sure if he's sending pingbacks yet
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 minutes ago: does your site support receiving and sending comments per http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#How_To or similar?
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tantek
heh
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barnabywalters
good evening tantek
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barnabywalters
I support everything there apart from accepting webmention and displaying mentions under the article/note (currently they are listed at /mentions)
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tantek
I think that's close enough to add yourself and state exactly that under http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-policies#Sites_Implementing_How_To_Comment
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barnabywalters
I think going forward I will let any pingbacks pop up automatically at /mentions, but prune the ones which get shown under the note by an intelligent whitelist/manual approval
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barnabywalters
e.g. if you’re in /contacts, you’re okay, if I’ve mentioned you in the note you’re replying to, you’re okay
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barnabywalters
hopefully soon: if you’re 1, 2, etc degrees of separation from me, you’re okay
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /comment-policies (+52) "/* Sites Implementing How To Comment */ added myself" (view diff)
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tantek
barnabywalters - those are great ideas!
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barnabywalters
tantek: thanks, should be fairly simple to implement most of them, esp. if I add mention machine tags to the notes
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barnabywalters
I’m now fairly busy working for brian suda, but now I’m in an apartment I have evenings again :)
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barnabywalters
ooh, interesting stuff in the logs RE hashtags and discoverability
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tantek
whoa - working with Brian Suda! Awesome and get him to show up here too!
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barnabywalters
tantek: yeah, doing a 4 month paid internship type thing. I’ll try :)
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barnabywalters
if we can get some form of near-realtime hashtag/normaltag aggregation going, that would be super powerful
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barnabywalters
it’d enable all sorts of cool location/topic/mention mashups
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barnabywalters
no idea how to make something like that, but I’d guess: service which PuSH-subscribes to as many feeds it can find, then grabs any p-category/rel-tag data it can, follows XFN links and PuSH-subscribes there too
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barnabywalters
then a simple API which makes a list of the most recent links tagged with X category, or in X location
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barnabywalters
some UI/API for adding your own feed to the service
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barnabywalters
it probably wouldn’t even have to hold onto the data for long — it could be fairly liberal about throwing away old data
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+565) "/* How To */ split making/accepting comments how to. add "Addtional support" per barnabywalters's ideas from IRC" (view diff)
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tantek
ok - I split up the "how to" of how to make a comment vs. accept a comment - so people can incremental support either one in whatever order makes sense for them
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barnabywalters
thanks — that’s probably a useful clarification to have
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tantek
since I've yet to do either, I'd appreciate if you guys that do support this review this: http://indiewebcamp.com/comment#Accept_a_comment
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barnabywalters
it’s interesting that both aaronpk and I are accepting pingbacks, but not really doing anything with them
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: I wouldn't say i'm "not doing anything" with them
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barnabywalters
or rather, not using them as “comments” but as just as personal notifications of linkification
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tantek
I'm writing from what we've discussed, somewhat secondhand - so I'd appreciate if you folks that have implemented accepting comments add any clarifications
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aaronpk
I see them in realtime and store them and use to find things that mention sites I run
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aaronpk
I like your thoughts on how to whitelist incoming pings
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barnabywalters
okay, rephrased to: not using pingback as comments
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barnabywalters
but as notifications — which all but removes the spam problems
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tantek
interestingly enough - this kind of whitelisting of comments is something we discussed as an XFN use case way back in the (2003) day
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tantek
oh my goodness, it's been over 10 years since I propose rel="friend" at SXSW Interactive 2013. wow.
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barnabywalters
10 year anniversary of XFN is later on this year, right?
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tantek
right - december
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /comment (+124) "/* Make a comment */ Added microformats-2 markup suggestion" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /comment (+19) "/* Accept a comment */ rephrase grammar a bit" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /comment (-10) "comment, as well" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
yay merge conflict
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /comment (+115) "/* Accept a comment */ grammar and order clarifications" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
something I am considering adding to my display/quoting/commenting/general linking guidelines is: if you’re kind enough to link to me, please refrain from using a link shortener — they kinda break the web
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/patrol]] patrol * Tantek.com * marked revision 2263 of [[comment]] patrolled
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tantek
barnabywalters - agreed - do it
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waterpigs.co.uk
created /post (+234) "Created page with "{{stub}} “post” can refer to either: * A discreet piece of content (perhaps a [[note]] or and [[article]]) * The act of creating the aforementioned content ** Also used els..."" (view diff)
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tantek
wait how can we have not had a [[post]] page?
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tantek
oh, we already have http://indiewebcamp.com/posts
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barnabywalters
ah, I’ll redirect
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barnabywalters
I checked Post, but not plural
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barnabywalters
although, post singular refers to the verb, which is in itself useful
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /post (+91) (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+194) "add disambig for post as well as posts" (view diff)
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tantek
I think it made more sense just to combine the two
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tantek
so I added the verb disambig to posts. as "posts" is also a verb, 3rd person present tense e.g. "she posts a comment"
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barnabywalters
this is true
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tantek.com
edited /posts (-10) "no longer a stub" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
initial version of my linking/commenting/quoting display guidelines: http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/
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barnabywalters
off to eat, bbiab
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tantek
barnabywalters - good update
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tantek
btw re: using variants of your name, e.g. Barnaby, B. Walters
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tantek
you could encourage use of the abbr element for those, provide an example
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tantek
e.g. if they only want to refer/link to you by your given name in the prose of a post for brevity reasons, they can use: <a class="h-card" href="http://waterpigs.co.uk"><abbr title="Barnaby Walters">Barnaby</abbr></a>
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tantek
say hi to briansuda!
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tantek.com
edited /quoting (+112) "new section IndieWeb Display Guidelines with barnabywalters's display-guidelines page as an example" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
tantek: ah, good catch on the <abbr> usage, I forgot that
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barnabywalters
I’ll say hi to Biran tomorrow :)
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barnabywalters
added (http://waterpigs.co.uk/articles/display-guidelines/#update-2013-04-07T18:45:00+00:00)
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+932) "/* POSSE to Twitter */ add POSSE to Twitter in general section with explicit listing of Twitter's limitations and thus respective POSSE strategies/guidelines" (view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - re: prioritiziing hashtags when POSSEing, included that among other general tips for POSSEing to Twitter: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_to_Twitter_in_general
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+144) "/* POSSE to Twitter in general */ grammar" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+161) "/* Posts about the IndieWeb */ add tagboard for discovery" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+94) "/* Posts about the IndieWeb */ Find stuff about the indieweb with Tagboard, Google News" (view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - do you know the Tagboard folks? They should include Flickr tags too!
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tantek
they could easily consume Flickr's feed: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb&lang=en-us&format=atom
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tantek
apparently Atom is the default: http://api.flickr.com/services/feeds/photos_public.gne?tags=indieweb
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barnabywalters
hadn’t come across tagboard before — nice find
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tantek
aaronpk found it
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tantek
I just captured it on the wiki :)
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barnabywalters
if anyone does know the people behind it, the “post #hashtag” is the perfect place for a web action :)
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barnabywalters
nice find aaronpk
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barnabywalters
hey, it links to indiewebcamp.com? so they let people “own” hashtags?
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tantek
they let people "create" tagboards, and when you create one, you can add a definition, link, and avatar for it!
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barnabywalters
hm, that is a little concerning
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tantek.com
created /own-your-data (+114) "stub, you know, in case someone might want to link here" (view diff)
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tantek
barnabywalters: http://about.tagboard.com/legal
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tantek
barnabywalters - just created: http://tagboard.com/ownyourdata
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tantek
:)
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tantek
and OTOH, my personal hashtag is spammed with who knows WTF is going on: http://tagboard.com/tantek
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barnabywalters
tantek: lol, that is even funnier than the mentions for @t
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barnabywalters
“mine” has lots of pets on: http://tagboard.com/barnaby
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tantek.com
edited /principles (+41) "be explicit - own your data" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /own-your-data (+43) "see also tagboard" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
judging by the random bit of code echoed when I sign up, they are using PHP
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tantek.com
edited /when (-10) "make "When" redirect to always the next IndieWebCamp" (view diff)
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barnabywalters
okay, so apparently I now “own” #barnaby
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barnabywalters
this
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barnabywalters
is nonsense
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barnabywalters
nice tool though
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tantek
created http://tagboard.com/indiewebcamp
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barnabywalters
oh wow, I can request advanced features like moderation, curation, custom styling and API access
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barnabywalters
this unnerves me
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tantek.com
edited /posts (+62) "Posts about indiewebcamp" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /2013 (+108) "/* Share */ blog, see what others are posting about indiewebcamp" (view diff)
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tantek
oh that is funny about upgrading for moderation etc.
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tantek
huh
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barnabywalters
so, mixed feels about tagboard — looks like a really nice service, but tag “ownership” and potential for abuse is unnerving
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barnabywalters
e.g. I randomly attached my URL to #barnaby — what right do I have to do that?
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tantek
that is a bit odd
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tantek
should be more wiki like
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barnabywalters
although, I can’t think of a better way to handle #hashtag -> URL resolution, so I should shut up
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barnabywalters
apart from, not doing it
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barnabywalters
or having a reddit-style up/downvoted list of “related links”
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tantek
well you could think of Wikipedia as such a mechanism
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tantek
every article there is essentially a community edited description for that hashtag
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barnabywalters
yeah, so just redirect from #hashtag -> enwp.org/Hashtag
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barnabywalters
and let WP disambiguation handle the rest
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tantek
right - that should be the default
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tantek
clearly there's incentive here to create tagboards for every tag you've ever used in your notes.
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tantek
and photos etc.
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barnabywalters
yeah, which IMO is a problem with hashtag aggregation
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barnabywalters
people use tags differently
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barnabywalters
this is why rel-tag URL tag namespacing is such a good thing
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tantek
sure - it's a problem with "owning" a hashtag
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tantek
really the pages about hashtags should be wiki-like
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tantek
so you can disambiguate as well
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barnabywalters
e.g. waterpigs.co.uk/tags/music might mean a subtly (or not so) different thing to tantek.com/tags/music
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tantek
or document different uses of hashtags for things over the years
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tantek
barnabywalters - sure
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tantek
and especially if they were categories of posts rather than just tags
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barnabywalters
any hashtag aggregator puts blind faith in the fact that everyone uses tags for the same things
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tantek
ok I'll go off and create a bunch of open related tagboards just to direct them to reasonable places
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barnabywalters
which works okay for a subset of tags
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tantek
well it works ok for time proximal similar usage
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tantek
since they get clustered together by time in the stream that is displayed
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tantek
so that's ok
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barnabywalters
“let the tagboard.com landgrab begin” :/
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barnabywalters
yeah, tags changing over time is another interesting one
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tantek.com
edited /To-do (+247) "Tagboards" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /To-do (+58) "indiewebcampuk too" (view diff)
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tantek
barnabywalters - well, it seems reasonable to "land grab" anything indie web related, and link them to indiewebcamp.com wiki pages which then can be community curated.
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tantek
solving the problem by a layer of indirection
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tantek
:)
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barnabywalters
communally created by anyone who owns their identity, but yes
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tantek
right - we're setting a higher bar
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barnabywalters
I am not against us landgrabbing even vaguely relevant stuff if we can, I just don’t think the idea makes any sense
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barnabywalters
that is, the idea of owning a hashtag
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tantek
sure. let's just try and make a positive thing out of it.
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tantek
and see what happens
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barnabywalters
positive reframing FTW! :)
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tantek
:)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /webactions (+60) "/* See Also */ Added link to webactions tagboard" (view diff)
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@latrippi
RT @t: Think users just want to use FB/G+/Twitter connect? Go do some user testing: http://identity.mozilla.com/post/45842909320/users-dont-like-social-login #identity #indieweb (ttk.me t ... ()
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bretolius
was there any followup from adn to aaronpk's app.net challenge?
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aaronpk
tantek: barnabywalters: just catching up! nice landgrab of indie/open things!
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aaronpk
bretolius: I had a skype call with Dalton last week
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aaronpk
I haven't had a chance to properly digest/paraphrase yet
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tantek
aaronpk - interesting. any quick answers to when which standards will be supported?
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tantek
or are open standards no longer a priority for adn?
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aaronpk
I don't feel like I can give an accurate answer quickly :/
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tantek
aaronpk - that's not a good sign.
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aaronpk
heh
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tantek
either open standards are a priority or they're not. if they're a priority, then it should be obvious which ones are being worked on, in what approximate order, with approximate implementation goals.
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tantek
if there's no idea which ones are being worked on, or any implementation date goals, then they're clearly not a priority. it's that simple.
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aaronpk
so, user demand is definitely the driving force behind development decisions
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tantek
can't give an answer quickly == don't know == they're not a priority
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aaronpk
also he said App.net needs plugins to be useful
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tantek
right, so open standards are not a priority then.
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bretolius
it didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards in that thread
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tantek
that's fine - that's the excuse every silo gives
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tantek
doesn't make the harsh truth any less true: open standards are not a priority for app.net
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tantek
"didnt seem like there was a huge ammount of user demand for open standards" is the rationalization silos give to deprioritize standards work
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tantek
it's a tired old excuse
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bretolius
adn is so strange
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tantek
bretolius - not really. it's just a silo variant.
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aaronpk
there are some open standards they are more interested in than others, particularly webfinger
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bretolius
but its like they try to frame it as if its not
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tantek
aaronpk - the flaw in the "App.net needs plugins to be useful" excuse is, well how do you define the interface for those plugins? with standards or proprietary?
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tantek
and unfortunately we know it to be proprietary (yet another snowflake)
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tantek
so "App.net needs plugins to be useful" is also bullshit
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aaronpk
tantek: the answer in that case is most definitely proprietary
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tantek
sorry, I should be more precise. bulshytt
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barnabywalters
tantek: ??
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tantek
http://anathem.wikia.com/wiki/Bulshytt
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barnabywalters
ah, haven’t read that one yet
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tantek
http://tantek.com/2012/126/b1/enjoyed-anathem-non-spoiler-quotes
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tantek
barnaby, Anathem is highly recommended
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bretolius
start a page http://indiewebcamp.com/Bulshytt listing qualifying statements from silos about how open they are
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tantek
bretolius - brilliant!
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barnabywalters
tantek: added to my reading list
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tantek.com
created /Bulshytt (+463) "stub" (view diff)
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aaronpk
omg you did it
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aaronpk
lol
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barnabywalters
ha ha awesome
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aaronpk
so I can't find a mention of this online, but he did say something I'm intrigued by...
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aaronpk
verified identity via DNS and webfinger
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Loqi
[[Special:Log/move]] move * Tantek.com * moved [[Bulshytt]] to [[bulshytt]]: lowercase
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bretolius
tantek, i just listened to our open source bridge talk from 2012, it was great! i especially loved the part about all the site shutdowns, in contrast with your discussion of google reader... how apropos, even though you didnt know at the time
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aaronpk
I should ask him about how that's different from relmeauth
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Loqi
definitely
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tantek
thanks bretolius!
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tantek
is that the podcast from the Rise of the Indie Web talk at OSBridge 2012?
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tantek
do we have place for podcasts on IndieWebCamp.com?
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tantek
aaronpk?
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bretolius
Rise of the web yeah
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tantek
bbiab
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aaronpk
ooh, good thinking
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bretolius
indie web*
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barnabywalters
hm, not sure I’ve listened to that one
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tantek
ok, off for a bit. I'll leave that creation to you guys :)
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bretolius
http://opensourcebridge.org/sessions/916
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barnabywalters
cheers bretolius
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bretolius
:)
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aaronpk
hah! I don't know how this is the first time I've seen this: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
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tommorris
morning aaronpk! ;)
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tantek.com
edited /bulshytt (+4) "link silos" (view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /silo (+15) "see also" (view diff)
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bretolius
I'm a fan of the name chiclets for social buttons... it will make a perfect cousin to the term spam. Im going to start referring to them as such
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tantek
ooh I just recently refound classic indiewebesque Zeldman post on Flickr: http://www.zeldman.com/2006/06/27/flickd-away/
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tantek
indiewebcampers - I'm likely going to give a 5 minute talk on open formats and data longevity tomorrow at a Sensored meetup in SF
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tantek
I'm thinking of giving an overview from this blog post almost 7 years ago:
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tantek
http://tantek.com/log/2006/06.html#d17t2231
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tantek
I'm wondering if anyone here has any suggested updates?
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bretolius
Flickr still has an extremely steep price, especially in 2013... i think it scares a lot of people over to facebook
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tantek
cheaper than a cell phone subscription
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tantek
I don't think the price scares people to FB, I think FB draws people in via convenience, easy UI, speed, everpresence on apps/sites etc.
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bretolius
It seems to me that if they could at least match facebooks unlimited, non-fullsize images that more people would rely on it as a social tool. the 200 photo limit makes it more of a try before you buy. Thats just my impression though, I dont really know
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bretolius
I personally don't mind the price, but I rarely meet people my age with a pro account
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tommorris
my problem with Flickr Pro is I pay for it and then end up not using it
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tommorris
I tend to now use Wikimedia Commons for my CC pics, partly because I trust Wikimedia to make decisions based on the best interests of the web more than I do Yahoo (cf. GeoCities)
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bretolius
yeah, i try not to think about flickrs parent company
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bretolius
:/
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