#indiewebcamp 2013-03-06

2013-03-06 UTC
eli_li, jfranusic, bnvk, tantek, friedcell, andreypopp, zztr, Phae, eschnou, DEMUNTER and adactio joined the channel
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@gazoombo
@bodyspacesoc you might also be interested in efforts like DiSo (defunct) http://diso-project.org/ or IndieWeb (active) http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page
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tommorris
so, @aral just gave me access to App.net. Wonder how I can start syndicating my stuff there too.
mxuribe, bnvk, scor, lmorchard, andreypopp, benatkin, friedcell and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
tommorris - it should be as easy you simply hooking up your home page on your app.net account. app.net should auto-discover your PuSH updates notification, and then subscribe to it. There should be no writing of custom code necessary.
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tantek
they've made bold statements about supporting standards, time to call them on it.
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tommorris
gives that a try.
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aaronpk
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 9 karma
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aaronpk
tantek: that makes me want to take out the syndication code I wrote for app.net now
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tantek
you should
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tantek
less code to maintain on your own site
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aaronpk
totally
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Loqi
it is probable
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tantek
demand that they support subscribing to your PuSH updates, and heck, parse your hAtom directly from your home page
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tommorris
has anyone gotten it working? I'm leaning towards just using Ifttt
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tantek
they can use any of the freely available microformats2 parsers to do so :)
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tantek
tommorris - is your goal personal syndication, or getting them to support standards?
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tommorris
both, but the former today. ;)
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aaronpk
tommorris: the thing tantek described deoesn't actually exist...that's the point
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tantek
does app.net really matter to you that much? I mean do you really have friends *only* on app.net that want to read your updates?
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tantek
if not, then why not apply pressure to make them support standards instead?
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tantek
they've made claims to be the good guys, to be all open and supportive of standards - call them on it.
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tantek
if they make you use a custom API or custom IFTTT setup, then they're no better than a smaller Twitter
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aaronpk
this sounds like a fun argument :)
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tommorris
I do have a few friends who are only-on-app.net
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tommorris
so, I think the whole pay-to-play API thing is really silly
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tantek
aaronpk - status.net knows how to subscribe from a site that has PuSH updates - and people on stauts.net are able to directly follow tantek.com as a result, without me having to do anything special on their site.
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tommorris
they seem to have decided that the only people who might want to use an API are app developers
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tantek
the whole API+TOS thing is really silly
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tommorris
like, I have no intention of building an app.net client for, say, Android or iOS or whatever. I just want to post my stuff to it.
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tantek
tommorris - tell your few friends who are only-on-app.net to support following any PuSH updates on the web the way status.net lets you.
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tantek
*to ask app.net to support
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tommorris
this is the problem with "API thinking". it means companies start thinking of developers as product creators. that's a subset of developers. many are tinkerers.
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tommorris
or they are product creators *at work* but when they get home they just want to tinker.
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aaronpk
tantek: this brings up an interesting point actually...
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aaronpk
i spent a while writing code that shortens my text updates appropriately for twitter's 140 and app.net's 256 character limits
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aaronpk
things like preserving hashtags at the end by truncating earlier bits of the text
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aaronpk
if app.net were to subscribe to my notes feed, they'd get the full-length text, which would sometimes be too long for an app.net post
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aaronpk
should I publish some sort of "rel=alternate" version of my text update at various lengths?
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tommorris
Surely Atom allows truncation...
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tantek
aaronpk, I've considered using p-summary markup for that
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tommorris
I was looking at the App.net API, it also has things like geolocation
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aaronpk
what if I want to publish a 140-char version as well as a 256-char version?
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tantek
I'd say pick the 256-char one, since we're stuck with calling Twitter's API directly
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tantek
that's my practical, real-world answer
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tommorris
<span class="truncated-256"><span class="truncated-140">bla bla bla bla bla bla bla</span> and bla bla bla bla</span> ;)
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tantek
rather than worrying about theoreticals
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aaronpk
the same pattern holds for my "bio" page
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tantek
tommorris - and we have "geo" in hAtom as well
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tantek
all of this can be published in the markup and then picked up by the PuSH consumer automatically
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tantek
there should be no reason to call the app.net API
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aaronpk
I currently publish a "long" and "short" version of my bio. 36 words and 125 words.
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tantek
(at least for personal syndication)
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tantek
aaronpk - I've got even more bio variants - but those are all manually copy/pasted by conference people
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tantek
so it's not really a use case for any kind of machine markup
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tommorris
so, I was using my personal site for checkins yesterday. I found that I ended up using text search rather than geolocation search because GPS is actually pretty crappy. :)
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tantek
tommorris - text search is how Dodgeball used to work.
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tantek
congratulations on rediscovering that path :)
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tommorris
or rather, GPS is great. except you are inside a building - doesn't work. then you go and get on the Tube, and pop out the other side. it takes time for GPS to seek.
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tommorris
you spend much more time waiting for GPS to work out where you are than you do just typing in the name of the bar or whatnot
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tantek
inside a building, that's what wifi-assisted location is for
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tantek
agreed
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tommorris
also, the API I'm using to get OSM data doesn't seem to include offices. thus Google Camps wasn't on there.
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tommorris
Google Campus rather
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tantek
and if systems could do velocity prediction (you were moving in this direction at this pace, therefore you're likely at this location now), and or pattern prediction (last n times you checked in at place A, you checked in at place B within the next thirty minutes)
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tantek
and posse-prediction (you just checked in with friend F at location A, your friend F now checked in a location B)
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aaronpk
+1 for multi-factor prompts
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aaronpk
everyone always uses just one thing, like just GPS search, or just text search, and that never gives a good enough result
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aaronpk
foursquare is getting better now because they take your past checkin history into account when showing you stuff "nearby"
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tommorris
so, this is one of the things I liked about FireEagle. the ability to have multiple things feed into your location
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tommorris
one I built just to prove a point: screen-scraping a loyalty card site. ;)
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tommorris
as in, you buy something from store X. the loyalty card website will update your points and list of purchases
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tommorris
screen-scrape that out and you know where you are. ;)
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tommorris
a friend of mine was trying to do the same with the Oyster Card website. unfortunately, it has about a 15 minute delay from swiping onto a bus or Underground station and the web UI updating
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tantek
some good ideas here to capture on our checkins page
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tantek.com
edited /checkin (+1223) "add geolocation detection aspirations"
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tantek.com
edited /checkin (+1) "/* co-checkin prediction */ t"
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tantek
aaronpk, tommorris - captured the above chatter here in a semi-structured form: http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin#geolocation_detection
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tantek
feel free to expand :)
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tommorris
tantek: cheers
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tommorris
on the upside, having my checkins on my site is useful. being able to say to people I know "if you want to know where I am, check my website" is pretty awesome. ;)
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tantek
tommorris - that *is* awesome
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tantek
I'm surprised you're ahead of the geoloqi kids on that front ;)
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aaronpk
hehe. my site has my lat/lng and shows the local time wherever I am, but not venues yet :)
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aaronpk
oh and it has city to
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tantek
aaronpk - local time where you are at is useful, and you can use that to markup a "tz" property in your hCard if you like
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tantek
a contact's "tz" is supposed to represent the time zone of their current location
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aaronpk
oh good thinking!
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tantek
so as long as you don't mind displaying your current time zone… do so and mark it up!
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tantek
is your current lat/long marked up as a "geo" inside your hCard? that's also the precise meaning of the geo property in an hCard
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tantek
it's meant to represent your current physical location
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aaronpk
i believe it is
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tantek
indeed! just checked in Operator.
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tantek
oh I see the (PST) too
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tantek
aaronpk - just found the only "tz" examples on the microformats wiki: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-examples-rfc2426#3.4.1_TZ_Type_Definition
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tantek
needs to better explain "tz" for hCards
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tantek
in short, mark up the timezone offset
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tantek
PST (<span class="tz">-08:00</span>)
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tantek
aaronpk - ok, this exploration got me to add it explicitly to the spec: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#note3
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tommorris
Hmm. Given I know people who frequently work with teams that have members in London, SF and India, I can see a pretty compelling use case for publishing current timezone. ;)
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tantek
agreed tommorris - it's just rare that people actually do so. thus I'm trying to collect more examples.
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tantek
collect/encourage :)
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tantek
fascinating
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tantek
LOL! "This user loathes, but is forced to observe, Daylight Saving Time."
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tantek
is there a calendar equivalent?
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tantek
"This user loathes, but is forced to observe, Gregorian dates."
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tommorris
Possibly. Just about to start noodling with MediaWiki Lua.
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tantek
passive aggression taken to a whole new level ;)
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tommorris
I once started a deletion debate for a userbox that said "This user believes marriage is between one man and one woman of the same race"
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tommorris
It turns out it was satirical, created by a supporter of gay marriage who was using it to mock an existing "This user believes marriage is between one man and one woman" userbox.
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tommorris
(Who knew that small rectangles would cause this much drama?)
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aaronpk
...that's some subtle satire'
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tommorris
Satire/radical-experiment-in-free-speech.
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tantek
aaronpk, tommorris - thanks for you input: http://microformats.org/wiki/timezone-examples
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aaronpk
great!
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tantek
and feel free to add more
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@modemlooper
Finally got @ownClouders installed, only took leaving @mediatemple :'(
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tantek
excellent, I see hober has cloned himself. welcome hober2!
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@jpbertram
#Facebook #NewsFeed relaunch tomorrow. What does that mean for brands? More than it should. #OwnYourData #OwnYourStrategy #socbiz
andreypopp and bnvk joined the channel
andreypopp and eschnou joined the channel
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@DatenundGesundh
Wir begrüssen Alt-Bundesrat Pascal Couchepin als neustes Mitglied im Verein Daten und Gesundheit http://www.datenundgesundheit.ch/ #ownyourdata
mxuribe and zztr joined the channel
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@brennannovak
@zp @skry I'm totally down to help you setup an IndieWeb node of @socialigniter that can post to Twitter, Appnet, and Facebook
tantek joined the channel
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters having trouble getting a response from waterpigs.co.uk - site ok?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
anybody else able to reach barnaby's site?
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hadleybeeman
No, tantek — not responding over here either.
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tantek
drat - so many good things there to reference!
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aaronpk
oh noes!
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tantek
do we need to create indieweb mirroring ? so we can host perhaps static copies of a few of each others' sites?
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aaronpk
could be fun to set up a mini web archive that everyone could contribute a mirror to
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tantek
I'm thinking more of something that each indieweb site would maintain itself for other indieweb sites
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tantek
so there's almost a social pressure to help out
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hadleybeeman
peer-to-peer indieweb?
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tantek
too easy for a 3rd party resource to suffer from tragedy of the commons
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tantek
yes hadleybeeman, peer-to-peer indieweb social replication/mirroring.
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tantek
wherein you designate a few friends as trustworthy to maintain accurate mirrors of your content, and they are willing to take-on the responsibility of hosting some static pages for you.
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tantek
it scales because no one person has to be responsible for everything.
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tantek
and it's sustainable as much as social ties are sustainable
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hadleybeeman
Sort of the online version of asking someone to help out with your kids, should anything happen to you?
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tantek
perhaps a bit less responsibility than that, but yes :)
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tantek
so, breadcrumbs - anyone have them on their site? anyone have any particular use for them? (navigation, context, aesthetics, SEO etc.)
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aaronpk
I used to, like 8 years ago.
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aaronpk
I gave up on them when I started flattening out my content
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aaronpk
when my content was more hierarchical I used them for navigation and to indicate at what point in the site the visitor was
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tantek
seems a lot of sites still keep them
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tantek
especially product/shopping sites
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tantek
aaronpk - how about archives?
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tantek
like do you have a page for all your 2013 content? or 2013 articles?
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tantek
when I implement my archive UI, I plan to have pages for year and bim and day
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tantek
(my archive pages/paths are in partly implemented states, easily guessable by URL)
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tantek
though my current design just has one top level link to go to the home page
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tantek
one breadcrumb as it were
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tantek
though I'm not sure it's really a breadcrumb if you can't get *back* from it
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aaronpk
tantek: I don't have explicit year archive pages yet
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aaronpk
but my paging URLs are permalinks because they reference a specific post, not "page 2" http://aaronparecki.com/notes?before=2012-12-26-1
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tantek
yes - that is nice
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tantek
does that mean everything before? or some-fixed-time-period before? or some fixed-number-of-posts before?
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aaronpk
fixed number of posts before. each page shows like 10 posts
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tantek
so if you add posts to the past ...
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aaronpk
then the pages get screwed up
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aaronpk
but I don't add posts to the past
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aaronpk
so it's ok :D
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 59 minutes ago: having trouble getting a response from waterpigs.co.uk - site ok?
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barnabywalters
argh what is happening
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barnabywalters
it seems that not only is my server down (no HTTP or SSH), the control panel server is also down
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tommorris
on an unrelated note, adactio linked to this earlier - http://jameskoole.com/2013/02/control-your-own-content/
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barnabywalters
so I am assuming this is out of my control for the time being
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tommorris
barnabywalters: hope you can get it fixed.
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barnabywalters
tommorris: that’ll teach me to buy hosting with a company called "cheapVPS" *roll*
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aaronpk
you should check out linode or digitalocean
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tantek
awww - sorry to hear that barnabywalters
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tantek
see the above discussion about indieweb peer-to-peer social replication/mirroring
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barnabywalters
oo sounds interesting
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tommorris
so, I've just spent some time working on parsing some government data. honestly. any system that uses integers as a type flag is fail.
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tommorris
if I told you that there was some geographic feature and it was type=003, you couldn't tell me what it is. if I told you that it was type=road_bridge, you could
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tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+97) "/* Upcoming */ 2013-04-30 Posterous will "turn off""
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tantek
tommorris - but, that would take extra bytes in the database. :P
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tommorris
all for the cost of a few bytes, one produces data that nobody will be able to understand without reverse engineering
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tommorris
046 turns out to be canal lock gate. ;)
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tantek
tommorris: 10-4
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tommorris
fewer bytes and moar vendor lock-in. i love government suppliers.
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aaronpk
tantek: lol
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barnabywalters
aaand… the VPS company’s server status page isn’t working either. meh.
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barnabywalters
mirroring static versions of each other’s sites seems like a good idea
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barnabywalters
on the subject of app.net — here is where dalton caldwell made a load of promises: http://daltoncaldwell.com/a-response-to-brennan-novak
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barnabywalters
AFAIK they have implemented none of them so far
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aaronpk
"Commit to enabling and supporting users in building inbound and outbound syndication to and from App.net" is kinda vague
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barnabywalters
”If you donate Dalton will personally hand deliver to your doorstep 1 flying unicorn ninja who has been raised on grass fed organic bacon’
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tantek
btw - re: app.net and re: mirrors
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tantek
that's another thing POSSE is good for
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tantek
nearly realtime static mirror
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tantek
so yeah, push for them to implement PuSH consumption :)
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barnabywalters
tantek: yep, I have an article in draft about how POSSE isn’t just for social BC, it’s also useful for maintaining 3rd party backups of your content
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barnabywalters
*sigh* no point stressing this evening. I’ll go off the grid and see what’s happening in the morning.
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barnabywalters
on the plus side, this time last year no-one apart from me would have cared, so that’s nice :)
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barnabywalters
goodnight all
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Loqi
buenas noches
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