#indiewebcamp 2015-05-30

2015-05-30 UTC
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tantek this is pretty cool too: http://ctrlq.org/first/69629-indie-web-camp/
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GWG Does anyone distribute p-summary and e-content for a note?
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KartikPrabhu what is note?
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Loqi A note is a post that is typically short unstructured* plain text, written & posted quickly, that has its own permalink page https://indiewebcamp.com/note
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GWG I'm looking into how to improve my POSSE to Bridgy Publish. I was thinking of generating desired content and hiding it in p-summary for some content.
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KartikPrabhu "unstructured plain text" seems to disallow markup funniness
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GWG This is behind the scenes markup funniness.
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KartikPrabhu what is the use?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "use" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=use&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-29%2Fline%2F1432944635587
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KartikPrabhu lol Loqi
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GWG I can't get the formatting on POSSEing to Twitter right. I might want to write something to output my desired format and put it in p-summary for Bridgy Publish to use.
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KartikPrabhu does Bridgy publish even use p-summary to do something?
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GWG Yes.
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GWG I'm reading the literature
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GWG https://www.brid.gy/about#publishing
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KartikPrabhu doesn't seem to say anything about p-summary
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kylewm GWG: I believe Bridgy uses html2text which means <p> and <br> would turn into whitespace (which may be in conflict wiht the definition of note)
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GWG KartikPrabhu: "In general, Bridgy prefers to use p-summary if available, then the full e-content, and finally p-name, in that order. The one exception is original tweets (not @-replies) on Twitter: for those, it prefers p-name before e-content. "
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GWG kylewm: It is choosing what to include in the tweet I want to control.
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KartikPrabhu why not just write a note with the first few lines/sentences that act like a "summary"
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GWG KartikPrabhu: That was sort of my idea. To specify it on my end.
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kylewm GWG: is it clear from the documentation that it is talking about "name" for articles only (not notes)
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KartikPrabhu GWG: : no need for p-summary markup then
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GWG I'm still having trouble with things cutting off.
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kylewm for articles "summary" > "name" > "content"; for everything else "summary" > "content" > "name"
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kylewm error case?
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KartikPrabhu GWG: I don't see how p-summary will help if there is cutting off of the text
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GWG I want to choose the text displaying.
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kylewm sure, like p3k's UI lets you enter the main note text, and then optionally alter the twitter posse text
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aaronpk kylewm: usually what i do when i end up with a bizarre git situation is just archive that folder somewhere and start over with a new checkout
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GWG kylewm: That is what I'm going to explore.
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kylewm aaronpk: yeah that was definitely the alternative, nuke kartikprabhu/mf2py and re-fork
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KartikPrabhu noooooooooooooooooo! ;)
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gRegorLove Why does Bridgy use e-content before p-name? Seems that should be reversed, no?
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snarfed gRegorLove: it's been kinda endlessly debated
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snarfed some discussion in issue(s), hopefully searchable
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gRegorLove Ah, just curious
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gRegorLove goes shopping
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snarfed has to run
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@MatthewDiIulio I finally setup my first #IndieWeb site on http://t.co/KkfKLs9ez0! Thank you so much @withknown. (twitter.com/_/status/604449496114720768)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+228) "add pdx" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (-7) "oops no <s>" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+4) "/* When */ br" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh my god i really need to use preview more
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aaronparecki.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (-4) "no TBD..." (view diff)
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gRegorLove kylewm: I think https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/issues/55 can be closed. I just commented.
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kylewm aaronpk got it
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015 (-13) "/* RSVP */ add calagator URL" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /2015/Planning (+2638) "moved from [[2015]] page" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015 () "(-2596) /* Candidate Dates */ move to [[2015/Planning]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /2015 (-30) "/* RSVP */ add indie event url" (view diff)
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aaronpk hmm something is wrong with my bridgy
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aaronpk it says last polled 6 days ago
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aaronpk (twitter)
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aaronpk just clicked "poll now" and that seems to have kicked it back into gear
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tantek hmm - no aaronpk nor Loqi
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Lancey oh i guess that's why the wiki is down
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ben_thatmustbeme more importantly indieauth.com is down
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ben_thatmustbeme may be time to start forking that
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ben_thatmustbeme seems rather single-point-of-failure-ish
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__number5__ Is it only me or the https://indiewebcamp.com is down?
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Vendan seems down: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/indiewebcamp.com
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__number5__ Vendan: thanks :) I'm in cafe and tethering via my phone so wondering if it's my 3G provider's issue
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tantek fortunately we can still all post on our own sites right?
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tantek e.g. here's an indie RSVP to a Lanyrd event: http://tantek.com/2015/149/t1/yxyy003-thoughtful-independent-creatives-yxyy
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tantek providing a real world example for the Bridgy Publish feature request for RSVP POSSE to Lanyrd: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/412
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tantek wait, did the Path app/site shutdown? https://medium.com/@kevinrose/hiding-failure-5a95696a604a
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tantek ah here is the announcement from yesterday: https://medium.com/the-road/a-new-chapter-for-path-c521e039f261
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tantek no shutdown imminent but an acquisition with claims service will be kept running
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tantek but we've seen that before - likely estimate is a year tops based on other similarly worded announcements
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GWG Okay, tried to make a Bridgy Publish plugin for WordPress. Something isn't working.
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GWG I'm feeling I'm missing something obvious.
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tantek GWG - to POSSE to which silo(s) ?
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GWG Just Twitter, right now
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GWG According to the Bridgy documentation, it is supposed to return the URL encoded in JSON.
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GWG I'm having trouble seeing that
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tantek I use the webmention method - and haven't been looking at the return value except to check for success - only using it to POSSE likes/faves of tweets currently
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GWG tantek: I am using the webmention method.
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GWG It posts.
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tantek well that's a good sign at least!
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GWG Although for some odd reason, it is picking up something outside of the content.
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GWG But I can't figure out why it is picking up post meta data
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tantek have you tried looking at the mf2 parsed JSON result of your permalink?
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tantek perhaps that may shed some light
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GWG My favorite parser isn't working
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tantek which one?
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GWG pin13.net/mf2
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GWG So, I would go to the wiki to check for other parsers...but...
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tantek the microformats wiki is still up
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#Parsers
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tantek different servers, hosts etc.
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GWG In the absence of p-name...why are all these parsers setting it to the whole page?
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GWG Either way, it still doesn't explain it
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GWG I thought notes weren't supposed to have p-names. But it is appearing to make one up out of the whole page.
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KartikPrabhu GWG: a name property is always implicitly generated from the contents for all types of mf2 objects
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GWG But this stuff isn't in the content.
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KartikPrabhu but it is in the h-entry I guess
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KartikPrabhu http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties
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GWG It is adding in stuff inside the h-entry, but outside the e-content.
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KartikPrabhu yes. that is what implied name does
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gRegorLove Everything in the h-entry goes into the implied name (plaintext) if an explicit *-name isn't supplied, afaik
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GWG So, I am confused about it.
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KartikPrabhu yes
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tantek yes that's roughly what happens
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tantek GWG - you can set the p-name on the same element as you set the p-content or e-content
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GWG That was what I was about to do
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GWG It still doesn't help my other problem
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gRegorLove What's the other problem?
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gRegorLove I use class="p-name e-content" btw
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KartikPrabhu me too
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tantek GWG - I give that advice because that's what I do on my notes at tantek.com
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GWG gRegorLove: I'm somehow not getting a JSON response from my webmention with the URL.
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GWG But I feel I'm missing something obvious.
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tantek GWG - you're not guaranteed any kind of response other than the status code from a webmention
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I think he means from Bridgy
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tantek KartikPrabhu: all he's doing is sending a webmention to Bridgy
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tantek that's my point - you're not guaranteed any kind of response by sending a webmention except for a status code
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KartikPrabhu yes and I think Bridgy is supposed to send some JSON response with the permalink of the syndicated copy
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tantek Bridgy docs citation for that?
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KartikPrabhu i know it is an over-load of webmention but that seems to be what Bridgy does
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KartikPrabhu looking or if GWG can provide a citation
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it was a simple re-use of webmention rather than coming up with a one-off API
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GWG https://www.brid.gy/about#response
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GWG tantek: I believe I remember someone saying the spec allows for data in the response.
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tantek allows for yes - but does not require
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tantek so I suppose you could hardcode something for Bridgy's particular behavior
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tantek can you check your Bridgy logs to see what response it claims to have sent back?
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tantek as in - logs on the Bridgy site itself
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GWG It says it is refunding a whole bunch of things. But I only seem to get error. I'm missing something.
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tantek what status code are you seeing returned?
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GWG 200. Although if it is an existing post, 400.
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GWG Maybe I'm mixed up on the php end.
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gRegorLove I use the Bridgy Publish JSON response to populate Twitter syndication link
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GWG gRegorLove: That is what I'm trying to do. I think it is something on my end.
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gRegorLove Are you getting a totally blank body response?
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GWG I don't think I am.
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gRegorLove I think you can view your Bridgy Publish logs at the bottom of the profile page.
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GWG I am
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GWG I found the problem
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GWG !tell snarfed https://github.com/dshanske/bridgy-publish (WIP)
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GWG Oh, well. Forgot there
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm welcome back Loqi!
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Loqi dude
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tantek Loqi!
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@mahemoff @timpritlove - @kevinmarks is interested in podcasting within #indieweb,seems #podlove makes sense to help with standardisation effort there (twitter.com/_/status/604519713238958080)
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@aaronpk Even my servers are taking Friday night off #indieweb @linode (twitter.com/_/status/604513812813746176)
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@anomalily .@aaronpk "I would favorite those tweets but I can't because my site's down" #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/604484596881760256)
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@anomalily "The sad thing is that tweet won't even show up on IRC-it's only on Twitter so it doesn't really exist" -@aaronpk, #indieweb without his web (twitter.com/_/status/604484355482742784)
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@anomalily .@aaronpk's server went down and he's struggling with his personhood. "Did I have a cocktail? Where am I?" #cyborgproblems #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/604483750274023424)
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rhiaro aaargh
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rhiaro needs teacup and quill
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rhiaro *needs*
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Loqi grins profusely
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rhiaro how long do I wait before I resort to using my sparql endpoint for posting?
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tantek rhiaro - what's failing for you?
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tantek and can you use mobilepub?
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tantek rhiaro: have you looked into installing/running your instances of teacup and quill on your server? (e.g. from their github repos)
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rhiaro tantek: teacup and quill just aren't loading at the moment
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rhiaro I started dockerising Teacup so I could run it myself but got stuck with php framework stuff
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rhiaro Definitely plan to figure that out though
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tantek hmm - is dockerising necessary?
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rhiaro amy.gy is set up so it's super convenient to deploy things at subdomains with docker
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rhiaro I could maybe dump it at amy.so, which is a general mess, as a temporary messure
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rhiaro I don't have time right now though
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tantek would it still block on the indieauth dependency?
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tantek just trying to figure out how many different copies of things we need running to reduce SPOFs
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rhiaro oh, yeah
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rhiaro aaronpksservers--
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tantek Loqi?
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tantek here but unresponsive - odd
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Loqi aaronpksservers has -1 karma
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tantek that's quite the delayed response Loqi
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@diplix @aaronpk good opportunity to test webmention.io fail-safes & caching mechanisms. hope this will recover quickly… (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7703/1/6/) (twitter.com/_/status/604618622141489152)
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@justmarkup Setting up Huginn to backup all my data I post online (twitter, instagram,...) on my server automatically https://github.com/cantino/huginn #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/604653617145114624)
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aaronpk uuuughhhhhhh
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aaronpk anyone have IRC logs from 6:30pm PDT last night until now?
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kylewm jah, I will send you what I have
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aaronpk takk
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kylewm http://kylewm.com/test/indiewebcamp_20150529.log and http://kylewm.com/test/indiewebcamp_20150530.log
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aaronpk :thumbsup:
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kylewm deploying #HugOps to aaronpk
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aaronpk what timezone is that in?
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aaronpk oh utc it looks like
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kylewm yuss
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aaronpk oh weird, loqi came back online last night earlier than I thought
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XgF What caused the downtime?
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Loqi yeah!
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aaronpk http://status.linode.com/
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aaronpk pretty bad power failure in Fremont
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XgF Messy. I'm pleased such things don't seem to happen to London
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aaronpk they hadn't happened in Fremont in years...this DC was super solid
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XgF Hmm, which DC of theres is it that has a reputation for being the troublesome one?
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aaronpk old Fremont
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aaronpk before that, Dallas
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aaronpk has been on Linode since 2007
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snarfed 8y, not bad
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 10 hours, 25 minutes ago: https://github.com/dshanske/bridgy-publish (WIP) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-29/line/1432967758036
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snarfed GWG: cool!
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snarfed GWG: you might want to mention that it requires the webmention plugin
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aaronpk we're baaaaaack
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 824 karma
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snarfed ops—
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snarfed sysadmin—
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Lancey aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 825 karma
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Lancey if only i remembered what i was trying to look up last night ;_;
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tantek Lancey - start with your Itches list!
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tantek woot! I can see logs again :)
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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kylewm aaronpk++
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tantek aaronpk++ thanks!
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Loqi aaronpk has 826 karma
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Loqi aaronpk has 827 karma
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aaronpk logs are backfilled
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aaronpk i'm going to do a little maintenance while i'm here
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tantek aaronpksservers++ I don't think rhiaro meant it ;)
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Loqi too much karma!
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tantek aw
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Lancey anyone here use screen?
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snarfed emacs is my screen
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aaronpk it's this kind of thing that makes me consider launching things on amazon where I can run things in multiple datacenters easier
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snarfed yup
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snarfed (s/amazon/any IaaS/)
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aaronpk I like amazon :)
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kylewm I had to quit using screen when I switched to emacs
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aaronpk i switched to tmux long ago
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kylewm tsux
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Lancey obviously what you need to do is distribute iwc on the blockchain
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Lancey so that it's completely decentralized
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aaronpk rolls eyes
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aaronpk there actually is a bittorrent version of the wiki available
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aaronpk heh I can tell how long each of my servers was down by looking at the timestamps of failed SSH root logins
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tantek what is bittorent?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bittorent" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bittorent&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433007124629
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tantek what is bittorrent?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "bittorrent" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bittorrent&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433007135899
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aaronpk what is btsync?
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Loqi Bittorrent Sync is a proprietary Dropbox replacement/alternative https://indiewebcamp.com/btsync
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tantek hmm -- aaronpk ^^^ perhaps document there how to get the bittorrent version of the wiki ?
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aaronpk oh i thought it was linked
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tantek is that a static HTML+CSS+JS snapshot? or is it a torrent of DB+templates? or?
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aaronpk it's .txt files of the mediawiki markup
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tantek good enough!
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aaronpk so it could be used to re-populate a mediawiki instance
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tantek or edit offline!
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aaronpk yes!
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aaronpk and is nicely searchable using filesystem tools
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tantek we should all have that locally on our laptops
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aaronpk it's very convenient for plane rides
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tantek seriously
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Loqi yea
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aaronpk i can use OSX Spotlight to search the wiki, it's great
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tantek is there a simple "one file" PHP script that can take one of those .txt files and render it in the browser as HTML?
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aaronpk it gets a little complicated because of the mediawiki templating
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aaronpk the {{ }} thing that lets you include pages in other pages
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tantek but the templates are there as Template:main.txt etc. files right?
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aaronpk other than that it wouldn't be too bad to throw a mediawiki syntax parser in there
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aaronpk yeah
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aaronpk and the images are in there too
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tantek ok, yeah, MVP for such a script could just show templates as code {{ }}
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tantek the File: images are in there?
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tantek so all the [[File: ]] references could embed too?
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aaronpk i dont think the File:*** pages are there, but the files themselves are
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aaronpk you realize this is step 1 on the path to replacing mediawiki right? :D
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tantek ah - that's the challenge then - since to get the actual image file you have to get whatever magic IDs are used between the File:*** pages and the image file
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tantek with a .txt file backend storage :D
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aaronpk no, no magic ids necessary!
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tantek which could be backed in git :D
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aaronpk the pages have text like [[File:img.jpg]] and there is a file called img.jpg in the folder
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tantek oh ok - so the script could algorithmically figure that out
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aaronparecki.com edited /bittorrent-sync (+109) (view diff)
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aaronpk you can see the whole folder tree here https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup/data/
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aaronpk here are all the images https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup/data/images/
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tantek bittorrent is /bittorrent-sync
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loqi.me created /bittorrent (+28) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433007135899 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek bittorent is /bittorrent-sync
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aaronpk heh not really but good enough for now
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loqi.me created /bittorent (+28) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433007124629 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek we're all about good enough for now :D
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tantek goodenoughfornow++
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Loqi goodenoughfornow has 1 karma
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aaronpk i'm gonna do an upgrade on the server, so it might go down briefly
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aaronpk s/might/will
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: i'm gonna do an upgrade on the server, so it will go down briefly
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tantek interesting is BitTorrent Sync and BitTorrent separate apps?
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tantek s/is/are
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aaronpk very
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Loqi tantek meant to say: interesting are BitTorrent Sync and BitTorrent separate apps?
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GWG !tell snarfed I will be coding a notice in for that
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Lancey: I use screen
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Lancey i figured it out, thanks though!
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GWG Sorry. Just catching up
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GWG aaronpk: Can the wiki export to mobi or epub?
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aaronpk that'd take a lot of mediawiki parsing
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aaronpk right now it's more of a backup of the source files rather than meant to be a readable finished product
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GWG aaronpk: I think there is an existing mediawiki plugin for it though
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aaronpk you're right, i do remember seeing that
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GWG Is it worth finding one and adding it so it could be loaded offline as a single file?
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GWG Same question for PDF
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tantek I think there's a page for wiki suggestions like that GWG
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GWG I'll be happy to look when I can
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tantek pretty sure this links to it: https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-projects
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Mark87 te
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tantek we should add http://syncapp.bittorrent.com/1.4.111/ to /bittorrent-sync
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Loqi yea!
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aaronpk server is rebooting
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aaronpk and back
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aaronpk fancy new ubuntu 14.04
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@lightcoin 👏 #openstandards #indieweb #p2p https://twitter.com/Jason/status/604351836888293376 (twitter.com/_/status/604714873621053440)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, re indiewebcamp going down, no we could only post on our own sites if we were logged in or not using indieauth
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ben_thatmustbeme which went down too
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ben_thatmustbeme reading back a ways
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes - so I was able to still post because I use my own RelMeAuth library
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tantek for my site
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm thinking i may do that
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather create my own relmeauth service
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: I could definitely use a collaborator that understands this stuff with the RelMeAuth library
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ben_thatmustbeme oh? github link?
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tantek Like there's a pending pull request patch from kylewm that I have yet to have to time to relearn all the code and evaluate
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tantek what is RelMeAuth
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Loqi relmeauth may refer to: https://indiewebcamp.com/relmeauth
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tantek https://github.com/themattharris/RelMeAuth/
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KevinMarks__ Hm, Jason is sounding pro indieweb because twitter is limiting his friends from harassing people
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tantek Jason who?
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, 5 years untouched?!
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KevinMarks__ Take a look at @Jason's Tweet: https://twitter.com/Jason/status/604351836888293376?s=09
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@Jason Trading Open Standards for Corporate Ones http://calacanis.com/2015/05/29/trading-open-standards-for-corporate-ones/ [ on banning of #ChuckCJohnson @rabite @1938loren ] https://twitter.com/Jason/status/604351836888293376/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/604351836888293376)
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: come on now, that's just the htaccess
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tantek all the meat is in relmeauth.php - which is only 2 years since last edit :P
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, wait, sorry, i had found this first https://github.com/tantek/relmeauth
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tantek is Twitter actually banning harrassers?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: hah I forgot about that one - I'm not using the Python version but it definitely could use an update and a new owner!
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tantek I have commit privs directly on themattharris/RelMeAuth/ so I just work on that there
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ben_thatmustbeme prefers ruby to python but uses php more than anything just out of availability
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tantek yeah, collab on relmeauth.php would be welcome with anyone else that wants to selfdogfood and help!
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KevinMarks__ They banned chuckcjohnson
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KevinMarks__ http://felixsalmon.tumblr.com/post/120262889600/facebook-video-is-evil#_=_
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snarfed ok all, question time: what are the next big challenge(s) for indieweb?
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Loqi snarfed: GWG left you a message 59 minutes ago: I will be coding a notice in for that http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433008226811
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snarfed 3-6 mos ago we would have said reader, but we have multiple good ones now
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snarfed we have identity, auth, publishing, many kinds of interactions (and UI for them), silo interop
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snarfed is it...social graph? search? recommendation? mobile publishing tools? driving adoption? …?
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aaronpk making stuff easier to install?
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snarfed i suspect the next big challenge(s) may not be technical, ie not something new we have yet to build…but i don't know
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snarfed aaronpk: sure, maybe?
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snarfed or maybe more indieweb friendly hosts/server platforms
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snarfed no install >> easy install
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aaronpk my votes are mobile publishing with proper offline support
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aaronpk and discovery / aggregation
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snarfed sgtm
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snarfed esp if we look hard at existing offline+sync libs instead of rolling our own
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snarfed e.g. https://simperium.com/ , parse, etc
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aaronpk unfortunately many of those come with their own server-side backends
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tantek snarfed, integrated reader is still a big one
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tantek as is search
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tantek reply UI smothness - we've made progress with webactions and handlers but nothing quite seamless there yet
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snarfed reply UI, absolutely!
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tantek and realtime display of replies / responses
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tantek in fact, I'd argue those are the #1 and #2 most important to get working to get people using indieweb tools *more often* (i.e. even *us*)
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tantek 1. seamless reply UI/UX across sites
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tantek 2. realtime display of replies / responses, so when you use that seamless UI, you see your interaction happen immediately
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tantek solve for laptop web, and mobile
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bear is there a document that links all of this together - like an indieweb flowchart?
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snarfed agreed on those 2, tantek, whether websocket (complicated) or just page refresh (easy)
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tantek bear - closest we have is /IndieMark
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bear yea, I was thinking about how I would catch up on what has happened over the last couple of months
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snarfed i'm not so convinced about search or integrated reader - seems like reader-as-a-service that can load your feeds from from your site is pretty good, and i know others here agree - but meh just imho
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bear and realized that I would have to scour the wiki and start asking questions
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tantek snarfed - I think we need both websocket (complicated but smoother), AND page refresh (for networks that block websocket ports - happens all the time at conferences / camps)
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tantek bear - the "last week" summaries are good
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tantek snarfed: would love to discuss this general subject more: what are the next big challenge(s) for indieweb? but have to run for now - maybe later this afternoon!
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snarfed sgtm!
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, annoying, "no tidy :("
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ben_thatmustbeme http://relmeauth.thatmustbe.me/
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KevinMarks one thing that may be worth thinking about is a "less pure" micropub/indieauth combo for posting to silos
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aaronpk what does that mean?
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KevinMarks silo.pub works as a "make your silo blog micropub compatible" but it does involve a lot of work on the templates
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kylewm silo.pub could implement indieauth, so you sign in with your silo credentials directly
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KevinMarks I think that's what I'm getting at.
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kylewm (wordpress and Known micropub plugins could do the same thing)
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KevinMarks both paths make sense
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KevinMarks one is a "turn this silo page into an indieweb friendly place"
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KevinMarks the other is seamless UI to post where you expect
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kylewm hmm, can you get around monkeying with templates though?
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kylewm still need to defined link rel="micropub" so the posting tool knows where to publish to
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snarfed aaronpk: re your offline+sync itch, here's a strawman
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snarfed a web based, localStorage-d micropub client that regularly crawls your feeds, syncs and stores your existing posts, lets you edit and compose new posts (online or offline), stores them locally, and publishes them via micropub when you're online
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snarfed (maybe expose the meat of it as a reusable JS lib)
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KevinMarks similarly for webmention - if there isn't a rel there, could you overlay a way to do it webmention.herokuapp.com style
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aaronpk i think step one is just getting offline posting working, not necessarily in conjunction with replying to stuff
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aaronpk i have a vague idea of how to do that
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aaronpk gonna focus on indieauth.com today tho
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KevinMarks which is kind of what bridgy does - make assumptions for well-known silos
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tantek snarfed: let's also chat about "what are the next big challenge(s) for indieweb?" at this week's HWC! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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snarfed tantek: hmm maybe! definitely a good idea
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KevinMarks and in effect each micropub endpoint that shows POSSE choices has parallel silo cross-posting code
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flyingdutch hi @ all
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KevinMarks hi flyingdutch
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flyingdutch Hey there. Kinda new here.
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+157) "/* What */ Topics, what are the next big challenge(s) for indieweb?" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (-1) "/* What */ ws" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+1) "/* URLs */ no nyc this week" (view diff)
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KevinMarks do you have your own website, flyingdutch ?
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+2) "more comment out NYC this week" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (+41) "*this week" (view diff)
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flyingdutch Ehm, like a personal one?
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flyingdutch Nah.
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flyingdutch Was browsing around for options/solutions to switch from Google Mail to hosting a self deployed mail server.
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flyingdutch For privacy/decentralisation issues.
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KevinMarks not really our main focus here, but there are resources at http://indiewebcamp.com/email
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snarfed flyingdutch: definitely do some research before you make the leap. email is probably the hardest thing to self host, by far
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aaronpk not worth it IMO :)
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snarfed agreed
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snarfed maybe spend the cycles on a nightly incremental gmail backup instead
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flyingdutch Oh yeah? Would love to hear why.
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snarfed very doable with e.g. getmail
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snarfed flyingdutch: google "email deliverability"…read for 15m…run away screaming
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aaronpk snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 105 karma
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flyingdutch Sure for me the disadvantages as far as I see for self hosting, is maintaining the server.
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flyingdutch So it's kind of a dilemma, keeping at Gmail or switch to another service, just for the sake of not having it hosted at Google.
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snarfed flyingdutch: no, really, google "email deliverability." it's a very different thing than just sysadminning, and *much* harder
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flyingdutch And yeah, I know it can suck to configure an email server..
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aaronpk no really, google "email deliverability" :)
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aaronpk wow, i was gonna drop TOTP logins on indieauth.com as part of the move to make it easier to run multiple instances, but 140 people have set up totp logins
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snarfed aaronpk: interesting! how about login volume?
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aaronpk checking now
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flyingdutch Google it, yeah.
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flyingdutch Well, seriously what are good alternatives? Even if it's at another service?
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flyingdutch I've been browsing through quite a few. The ones I think we're worth it, didn't support custom domains/aliases. Which is a must for me.
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aaronpk i just moved a bunch of my email domains to dreamhost
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flyingdutch Google Mail has that. Basically it has all I need. Just I'm not sure how they encrypt the data and also have privacy concerns.
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bear fastmail and pobox are my goto for people who want to self host but not run servers
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aaronpk looks like about 15-30 TOTP logins per month!
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 61 karma
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bear flyingdutch - fastmail supports custom domains and aliases and is very easy to use. also supports ssl connections for pop3 and imap
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bear *and* has a very decent web interface
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flyingdutch E.g. this post, underlines my current issue for finding a good service to switch over:
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flyingdutch http://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/comments/2q6wa0/fastmail_weblog_confidentiality_what_do_you_guys/
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kylewm flyingdutch: +1 for fastmail
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bear that reddit post is a huge strawman arguement
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flyingdutch bear - Sure, but what about data encryption? Zero knowledge? Data requests by governments?
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bear your email is transfering thru multiple servers - it has zero chance of being secure
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flyingdutch Unless it's encrypted?
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aaronpk looks like the bulk of the logins are people who used it only one time
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bear the only secure email is encrypted email - and then you don't care about what server/service you use
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Loqi slack/snarfed: encrypted email lol
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aaronpk the real question is whether people who have used TOTP logins also have another method set up
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flyingdutch E.g. check https://scryptmail.com/
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Loqi slack/snarfed: encrypt email or have people actually read it; choose one
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flyingdutch I have been considering to switch to them.
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kylewm aaronpk: drop TOTP and see if anyone complains :P
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bear yea, if that level of security is needed then you will need to find a company that is in an EU country that doesn't have terrorism treaties with the US
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kylewm I didn't bother to set it up again when my phone got reset
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bear and guess what - there aren't any
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aaronpk kylewm: good data point :)
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aaronpk TOTP is the only method right now that requires you have a relationship with the indieauth.com server, so if i can drop that this whole thing becomes easier
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bear if it requires a relationship, then does that mean you can send them a message?
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aaronpk if i had required an email to use it yeah
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bear oops
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bear can you have the new servers redirect to the old one for TOTP and put a banner up saying it's being deprecated
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aaronpk mayyybe
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bear totp.indieauth.com
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aaronpk i could replace the TOTP button with a message that says it's deprecated
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@benwerd I'm super-proud of everything we've done on @withknown so far. #indieweb - but also very personal publishing. https://withknown.com (twitter.com/_/status/604733231284383744)
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aaronpk okay, confirmed that everyone who has set up TOTP has another way to sign in still
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aaronpk (i mean obv they had to to set up TOTP in the first place, but they could have removed the other option later)
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bear +1
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aaronpk sheds a small tear... <3 pebble watch login
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bear someone can always run their own service
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bear to get TOTP and Pebble login
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bear errands
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aaronpk yup
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@diplix #indieweb recherchieren hat in den letzten wochen dazu geführt, dass ix jetzt #webmention-e, #micropub-e, #mf2-e… (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7709/1/6/) (twitter.com/_/status/604736339464982528)
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@Indie_Auth Dropping support for TOTP logins (Google Authenticator) in order to make https://indieauth.com/ more scalable. https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/commit/552efadf4b86a0dae308dbbc25d07cbcf834ae7d (twitter.com/_/status/604737510992932865)
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KartikPrabhu reads back...way back
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KartikPrabhu if I am reading this correctly indieauth is an implementation of rel-me-auth?
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aaronpk indieauth.com is relmeauth as a service
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aaronpk among other things
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KartikPrabhu I see cool. for some reason I didn't know that :)
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aaronpk it started because i didn't want to build relmeauth as a mediawiki plugin
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KartikPrabhu oh yeah that would have been much more work possibly
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KartikPrabhu !tell snarfed: making things easy to install is definitely the next big challenge
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi slack/snarfed: KartikPrabhu: easy install? or no install? :P
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KartikPrabhu what is no install?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "no install" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=no+install&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433016136634
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KartikPrabhu well there ^ :P I don't actually know what no install means
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Loqi slack/snarfed: hosted, the way modern webapps generally work
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Loqi slack/snarfed: bring your own domain
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KartikPrabhu so this "no install" thing will attach my domain to some app on some one else's server?
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Loqi slack/snarfed: yup. tumblr, blogger, <http://wp.com|wp.com> do this. more importantly, known does it too
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Loqi slack/snarfed: and remember, unless you physically own your server, you're already "on someone else's"
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KartikPrabhu hmm then it is a good first step. I reckon there will still be people like me who want to put things on their own server to experiment with it, but those will be fewer
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Loqi slack/snarfed: it's all relative
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Loqi slack/snarfed: agreed!
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KartikPrabhu not about "own server" per se, but being able to muck around with the code and experiment is mainly what got me off Blogger in the first place. ref: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/redux
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KartikPrabhu hmm speaking of mucking around I should really move dates to the top of articles :P
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Loqi slack/snarfed: sure! I'm all for that. we're the minority though. and it's definitely not required to be indieweb
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KartikPrabhu yup yup. agreed
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KartikPrabhu it will be awesome if more /projects can graduate to the level Known has
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KartikPrabhu another problem is "for off site readers, how do you still keep your reading data?" at the moment all your subscription data lives on Monocle or Woodwind.
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Loqi slack/snarfed: i bet there are a few
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Loqi slack/snarfed: like i said, they'd read your subscriptions from your site
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Loqi slack/snarfed: but you're right, they don't yet
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KartikPrabhu and we haven't figured out "how they'd read subscriptions from your site"
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KartikPrabhu and how can my site get updates about what I have already read on Monocle or Woodwind
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Loqi slack/snarfed: yup, unread state is different
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Loqi slack/snarfed: and imho low priority
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Loqi slack/snarfed: since it's so short lived
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KartikPrabhu yes possibly
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aaronpk wow this is going to be quite a project... i forgot how much of this app assumes there is a DB
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gRegorLove Which app?
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aaronpk indieauth.com
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aaronpk oh crap... i don't think i'll be able to do SMS auth either
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aaronpk hm i will have to force the code verification request to go to the specific server that generated the code in the first place
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aaronpk if it's DNS load balanced it will *probably* do that by itself
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gRegorLove aaronpk: I'm working on php-mf2 rel alternate parsing. In http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parse_a_hyperlink_element_for_rel_microformats it says the key 'text' should be the text content, if any. What's an example of a rel having a text value?
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aaronpk oh cool
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aaronpk i think this one? https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2/blob/master/tests/test-suite/test-suite-data/rel/license/input.html
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gRegorLove Gotcha
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aaronpk check the python lib i think it has better tests
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/kevinmarks/mf2py/blob/master/test/examples/rel.html
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KevinMarks_ Then look in https://github.com/kevinmarks/mf2py/blob/master/test/test_parser.py for test_rels
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KevinMarks_ We're iterating on the general tests too, but they aren't all right yet.
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KevinMarks_ Also we're still discussing whitespace stripping
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gRegorLove I found a php-mf2 test for an <a rel>. It was pretty easy to add 'type', 'title', and 'text' keys to the array. Test passes.
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aaronpk getting rel-urls in there will be a useful addition
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gRegorLove I was just wondering about that
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gRegorLove Wasn't sure if that was just being discussed or there's some consensus
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aaronpk step 1 of refactoring indieauth.com is done
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aaronpk now the hard part
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KevinMarks_ Have a look at http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues gregor
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KevinMarks_ Needs more feedback from parser users
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GWG snarfed: Now that I have addressed the webmention dependency, still wondering if there is anything else I can add to this Bridgy Publish plugin. I don't think it needs much else, but I want to figure that out before I go any further.
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snarfed GWG: ship it and get people using it!
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Loqi snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 14 minutes ago: making things easy to install is definitely the next big challenge http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433015993524
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aaronpk shipit++
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Loqi shipit has 1 karma
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KartikPrabhu lol! I read that as something else ^^
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tantek !tell gRegorLove re: What's an example of a rel having a text value? Example is in the microformats2-parsing spec - look for French mobile :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme heh, while i was out, hosting provider installed tidy lib for me
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ben_thatmustbeme hostt.net++
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ben_thatmustbeme hosttornado++
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Loqi hosttornado has 1 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme there we are
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GWG snarfed: I have one more feature idea. A way to use the excerpt box as a hidden custom Twitter POSSE text if you want to specify it. But I haven't figured out how to do that, so maybe I'll do a once-over cleanup and submit it to the .org repository.
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GWG snarfed: I assume my request of last year still applies?
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snarfed GWG: oh god, last year?! definitely more context pls
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GWG snarfed: I asked you if I ever wrote one, would you link to it from the bridgy page?
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snarfed aha
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snarfed sure of course!
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snarfed even better, i'd merge a PR :P
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GWG The Bridgy About page is repoed?
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GWG Didn't realize
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snarfed the whole project is in the repo
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KartikPrabhu refactored site templates to put published date on top, broke a bunch of mf2 in the process :P
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KartikPrabhu question in #microformats
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tantek and I just Voiceover in Mobile Safari to properly read the fallback text in my indie /comic post! just needed one aria-labelledby attribute (and the id on the inner div to reference)
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tantek what is a summary?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "summary" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=summary&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433021535314
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tantek KartikPrabhu: ^^^ want to start that draft with a simple dfn and "Why" section with the use-case you've identified?
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tantek and heck, while you're at it - add a "IndieWeb Examples" section with yourself as a subsection with "e.g. https://kartikprabhu.com/ all the articles listed have a summary. I want the full article to have the same visible <p> as p-summary and the thumbnail image as u-featured"
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tantek what is featured?
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Loqi featured is a proposed mf2 property that indicates a representative image for a primarily textual post https://indiewebcamp.com/featured
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Loqi gives tantek the full article to have the same visible
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aaronpk loqi needs to learn HTML tags
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Loqi is done
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aaronpk is always worried when a major refactoring results in working code the first time
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KartikPrabhu haha!
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I'll add you to /featured
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tantek go ahead and start /summary :)
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KartikPrabhu oh ok was about to do that :)
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KartikPrabhu Ok i'll think of a summary for summary
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tantek no no /summary is harder work that you are more cognitively aware of than me - so do that one :)
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KartikPrabhu yeah :P
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KartikPrabhu is midly tempted to start with "Dicitonary.com defines summary as... " ;)
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tantek.com edited /featured (+525) "expand with why, how, indieweb examples kartikprabhu, see also sections" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: come on now - that's as bad as the people that copy from wikipedia :P
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tantek it would be funnier if people didn't do stuff like that
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tantek also - this is "summary" in the context of indieweb, and h-entry etc.
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KartikPrabhu I know :P The whole "Oxford Dictionary defines..." is one of my pet peeves in writing
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tantek you can contrast it to "name" and "content" for example
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KartikPrabhu lazy lazy lazy
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tantek right
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tantek we really should avoid such generic dfns on Indiewebcamp because they're not useful
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KartikPrabhu nods
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tantek dfns on indiewebcamp should always be "in the context of indieweb"
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KartikPrabhu what is content?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "content" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=content&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433022086678
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tantek like the generic dfn of memes was totally unnecessary for example
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KartikPrabhu oh shit
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Loqi hehe
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tantek start with /summary :)
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aaronpk refactoring++
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Loqi refactoring has 1 karma
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tantek KartikPrabhu: look what I did with /featured in terms of minimal subsections and how I defined it contextually for indieweb
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aaronpk just found a completely unnecessary column in the DB
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tantek don't make /summary harder than it needs to be
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tantek aaronpk: lol
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tantek aaronpk: are you saying you found a column that was not load bearing? ;)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: of course. I always see other pages on the wiki when starting a new one from scratch
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aaronpk tehe
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tantek bbq;bbiab.
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aaronpk nice
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KartikPrabhu What is article?
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Loqi An article is a kind of post that typically has more structure than a simple note https://indiewebcamp.com/article
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KevinMarks__ I think the generic definition of meme matters, but that is an uphill struggle these days
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KevinMarks__ But then I read The Extended Phenotype when it came out
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kartikprabhu.com created /summary (+718) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433021535314" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu what is summary?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/summary
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aaronpk no summary of summary?
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KevinMarks__ Wow https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/603280328975884291
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@artem_zin WTF was in their mind!? @jessewilson how should I sleep now… https://corner.squareup.com/2015/05/okhttp-2-4.html Why Java, why?? https://twitter.com/artem_zin/status/603280328975884291/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/603280328975884291)
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: yeah weird. I copied the code from /article so that it would work. I am confused now
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aaronparecki.com edited /summary (+25) "add explicit p-summary because the page uses p-summary breaking the autodetect" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu oh ok :)
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KartikPrabhu what is summaries?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "summaries" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=summaries&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-30%2Fline%2F1433022928906
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KartikPrabhu summaries is summary
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loqi.me created /summaries (+47) "prompted by KartikPrabhu https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-30/line/1433022928906 and dfn added by KartikPrabhu" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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KartikPrabhu pooo I did that wrong
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aaronpk KevinMarks__: wow that is amazing
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kartikprabhu.com edited /summaries (-26) "redirect correctly" (view diff)
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kartikprabhu.com edited /featured (+18) "linky to summary" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu oh man java is messed up
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KartikPrabhu I learnt it once, which in hindsight was very painful
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KartikPrabhu python was much easier to pick up
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aaronpk hm facebook is telling me i should follow zuckerberg http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/facebook-20150530-151302.png
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@kevinmarks @LynnMagic there is Homebrew Website Club on Wednesday http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/604778110106484736)
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Loqi [mention] felix schwenzel posted '#indieweb-recherchieren (hierfür) hat in den letzten wochen dazu geführt, dass ix jetzt #webmention-e, #micropub-e, #mf2-e und #POSSE. (die...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7709/1/6/)
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Loqi [mention] felix schwenzel posted '#indieweb-recherchieren (hierfür) hat in den letzten wochen dazu geführt, dass ix jetzt #webmention-e, #micropub-e, #mf2-e und #POSSE. (die...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (http://wirres.net/article/articleview/7709/1/6/)
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aaronpk i sure hope nobody was making any assumptions about the length of auth codes returned by indieauth.com
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aaronpk cause they're about to get a loooot longer
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GWG aaronpk: Oh
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GWG ?
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aaronpk yeah i'm storing everything i need in the auth code instead of in the database
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aaronpk http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2013/11/17/my-favorite-database/
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KevinMarks_ Google being pro web? http://www.wired.com/2015/05/google-now-io/
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snarfed stateless++
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Loqi stateless has 1 karma
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aaronpk is chewing through this slowly
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ben_thatmustbeme hah, interesting problem... using curl to get past any redirects
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ben_thatmustbeme https://www.facebook.com/dissolve333 --- changed to https://www.facebook.com/unsupportedbrowser
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ben_thatmustbeme thats my logging line.... damn
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aaronpk you can set the user agent to something that looks like a browser to get past that
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aaronpk facebook is just :(
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ben_thatmustbeme still... a bit annoying
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: you're trying to scrape fb?!
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Loqi [bridgy] Lynn Cyrin replied '@kevinmarks na' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-03-homebrew-website-club (https://twitter.com/LynnMagic/status/604794025254645760)
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kylewm lol, nice reply
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