#indiewebcamp 2016-05-28

2016-05-28 UTC
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ben_thatmustbeme sknebel, huh? no, i don't want access to my github, i'm creating a micropub client, but it can't fetch the homepage and thus endpoints.
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sknebel ben_thatmustbeme: oh, sorry, misunderstood... was quickly scrolling through the logs
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Loqi [indieweb] "By: Scott Kingery" by Scott Kingery http://techlifeweb.com/bookmarklets-for-indieweb-favorites-and-retweets/
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tantek good late afternoon #indiewebcamp
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GWG Less than a week till the Summit....excited?
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 2 minutes ago: what's your oldest "like" post, i.e. both semantically (like you menat it as a like, not just a bookmark), and with u-like-of markup? can you add it to https://indiewebcamp.com/like#IndieWeb_Examples http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-27/line/1464376332331
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GWG I have like issues
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tantek I just have, like, issues
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GWG I just never could decide what I meant by like.
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tantek do you ever "like" things on silos / social media?
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tantek for me, likes are a replacement of that action, just using my own site instead, so I can own my likes
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GWG Rarely, but I'm not sure what I mean there too.
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tantek it's ok to be uncertain about what they mean, point is, if you're doing it there, you can do it on your own site instead
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GWG I tried to distinguish the emotion between bookmarking, liking, and favoriting...and it was an issue.
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GWG tantek: Agreed. I just still am confused about what I want it to mean
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mblaney I'm curious about the HEAD vs GET discussion and don't have a strong opinion either way, but aren't there some benefits to GET over HEAD?
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tantek mblaney: I think it depends on the specific use-case?
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mblaney ie a GET could be considered as a HEAD plus a pre-fetch of the content.
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mblaney which saves a network request.
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tantek sure, but the prefetch of the content spends CPU/IO resources on the server
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tantek so it's a tradeoff
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tantek and thus requires specific use-cases to evaluate to figure out the trade-off
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GWG The idea was to prevent being 'tricked' into participating in an amplification attack, to start, and moving from there
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mblaney tantek I still wonder if the extra network request means the server resources used are the same either way.
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GWG But are you thinking in the aggregate?
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tantek mblaney - hard to tell
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mblaney so the only way to use less resources is to send the relevant links in the headers, so the people who lose out are those who can't send headers.
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mblaney GWG I don't see how HEAD vs GET stops the amplification attack, attackers will send GET requests anyway.
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GWG mblaney: It stops your endpoint being used in one.
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mblaney GWG could you explain how for me?
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mblaney tantek if it's hard to tell then I don't see why we would be prescriptive of a HEAD request over a GET?
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tantek because a HEAD request may be gentler on the server
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GWG I send you a webmention for a resource on another site, and keep sending it...and use your site to keep asking for it.
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tantek even if it's hard to tell
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GWG And that, as tantek said, means HEAD is gentler.
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tantek bear can provide more details
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mblaney "may be" gentler means also may not be, so just trying to understand the rationale.
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GWG mblaney: As far as I understand it is...however, I admit that I don't have the data behind me
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mblaney I understand that a HEAD is better if that's all that is required, but we have a protocol that allows the links to be found in the content, and that part of the protocol is obviously used by many implementations.
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bear I am sorry I brought up the whole conversation to be honest
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GWG bear: Why?
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bear HEAD is better for one specific reason - it doesn't pull the whole body content and if you are only *verifying* that the site is proper then HEAD is faster
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mblaney so GWG, in the case of your amplification attack, if you are forced to verify against a url where the links are in the body, you send two networks request for every attackers one!
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bear that is a strawman point
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bear a HEAD followed by a GET is normal and a lot of older systems used to do that anyways
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bear and saying that 2 requests is bad means that if you follow the logic that know one will ever want to use JS or any other dynamic site
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bear but it's obvious that I am now considered so old school by all of these web devs that I will just stop trying to ever correct anything
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KartikPrabhu bear: using JS to fill content does not show up in GET either
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bear but it sure does increase the number of round trips
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mblaney bear I appreciate your knowledge on the subject, I'm really just trying to understand the logic and readily admit that I don't know what's best here.
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bear mblaney - my rant above is not directed at you , apologies
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bear it's been building up all day
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mblaney ok then :-)
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bear all I wanted to do was point out that for the use case of static sites and for the use case where building a dynamic page can be resource intensive, doing a HEAD request can completely remove the need for any further processing for a few cases
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bear sure, for 95% of the cases you will make another request, but those folks who don't like that can just do the GET
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bear for me, I'll always do a HEAD request
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mblaney I'm happy to do the HEAD request first too, just trying to understand the logic.
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bear this is the logic I used to reach my point
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bear first step is to verify that a received webmention is a valid source, so the way I learned HTTP was that to verify a url as valid you do a HEAD request
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gRegorLove Another advantage of HEAD is you can check the content-type, so you're not tricked into load a large video or something as part of an attack
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mblaney plus it sounds like it won't be a matter of personal preference soon, as if you fail a test for not doing the HEAD first, then that's a strong statement about how it should work.
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gRegorLove Though I don't think? the spec says anything about content-type currently
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bear and then if you get back anything in the 2** range you are ok, 4** or 5** you can dump and run
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[kevinmarks] This is for endpoint discovery on the target, or for checking the source for links?
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GWG gRegorLove: I suggested we add the content type check.
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tantek gRegorLove: it does a little HTML vs JSON vs plain text
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tantek kevinmarks how did GG go?
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bear [kevinmarks] neither - this is for checking that the webmention source url is even valid and exists
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[kevinmarks] I'm assuming SVG counts as html
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[kevinmarks] GG was a bit too much Trump
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gRegorLove Ew
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GWG My version, the one in PR, checks for the content type and rejects media types.
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GWG KevinMarks: Isn't that everywhere nowadays?
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[kevinmarks] Made me think about the web/app split a bit more though
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gRegorLove Interesting, GWG!
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[kevinmarks] https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/736310159996157957
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@kevinmarks App/web merger? Instant Apps are linkable, Progressive Web Apps can be installed, now Android Apps on ChromeOS http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/05/the-play-store-comes-to-chrome-os-but-not-the-way-we-were-expecting/ (twitter.com/_/status/736310159996157957)
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miklb [kevinmarks] did you read adactio's article on that subject?
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gRegorLove Heh "The receiver must reject the request if the source URL is the same as the target URL." I need to implement that.
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[kevinmarks] Yes, I have a compromise suggestion I will blog when I get my laptop working again
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bear I don't reject same source webmentions any more
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bear because I use them for selfupdates
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GWG bear: Interesting use case. You should document that
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bear well, hmm, very special case is that
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bear if URL is same and also my domain
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GWG I meant, other static sites may find the idea useful.
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gRegorLove bear: You send wm with source = target?
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bear to myself
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bear it's a by product of our I look for updates
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gRegorLove Huh. Is it displayed? Or serve as a timestamp of when you updated?
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bear a wm is one of two ways to trigger a refresh in my system
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gRegorLove Ahh
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bear no - I special case it so it never updates publish/update timestamps
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[shaners] SF folks: anything doing for the next couple hours? I'm down town (leaving Pivotal) and am a free radical until 8/9.
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Loqi [indieweb] "In one week the independent web’s innovators will gather at the IndieWeb Summit in Portland.
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tantek so that was like <1s from "Publish" to growl from IRC mention
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GWG I'm one of the Independent Web's Innovators? I feel like I should add that to my resume.
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tantek GWG, yes you are
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tantek you're more than that. you're a leader in the community as well
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GWG I sometimes feel more than a fly in the ointment, at least on the WordPress side.
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miklb WordPress needs more flies in the ointment
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GWG miklb: Probably. Know any flies?
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miklb heh. My days of being a fly in the WP ointment are long gone, but point me to a few tickets and I'll be glad to chime in
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GWG My problem is I need to learn the 'WordPress way'
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miklb refrains from being snarky on their birthday :)
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GWG The Microformats 2 ticket was closed as wontfix
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tantek hey didn't Matt himself blog about support microformats2?
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miklb I stil don't grasp how supporting mf2 would "break a ton of sites"
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GWG Well, if they came out and declared it a theme issue, then I could approach it.
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GWG But the themers said it was a Core issue, the Core team says its a theme issue....
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Loqi [indieweb] "Community Calendar" by Tantek https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Community_Calendar&diff=1134857&oldid=1133795
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mblaney has a strong dislike of the theme/core dichotomy found in most CMSes
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GWG mblaney: I get some of the motivation behind it, I just don't agree with parts.
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miklb relevant to the discussion regarding CSS class names (with a brief mention of microformats) http://snook.ca/archives/html_and_css/semantic-css
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[kevinmarks] Missing the point http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/05/24/pointless_features_add_to_browser_bloat_and_insecurity
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Loqi [indieweb] "Tantek" by Tantek https://wiki.mozilla.org/index.php?title=Tantek&diff=1134860&oldid=1096314
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kylewm Calvin by Calvin
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bear did the author of that post forget that browsers exist for the users and not for "the popular 10000 websites" ?
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tantek thanks Superfeedr for tracking all my WikiMo edits :P
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tantek kevinmarks, bear, there's something to that article, I do think there is a lot of bloat in web platform features overall that could be trimmed back
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tantek and the increase in security surface is a real problem
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[kevinmarks] I should read the original paper, the reg is not exactly judicious
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Loqi I agree
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[kevinmarks] 2 column Pdf;dr
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tantek yep
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[kevinmarks] Looks like an interesting paper, but I don't have a screen it's legible on handy
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[kevinmarks] Oh, I can read the TeX source
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tantek realizes /Instagram permalinks also lack next/prev linear sequential nav :/
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tantek How do I export a list of my Instagram permalinks
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kylewm tantek: maybe leverage granary?
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willnorris kylewm: any chance of getting https on mf2.kylewm.com?
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willnorris I'm getting mixed content warnings on https://willnorris.com/tmp/mf2compare.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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kylewm Heh
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kylewm Sure, i can do that
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willnorris (example on a non-https host: http://willnorris.net/mf2compare.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F
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willnorris still needs a lot of work, but it's basically working :)
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[kevinmarks] This is where we see who sorts their dicts
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willnorris I'm pretty sure I get it for free with go's json package :)
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willnorris err, apparently not
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willnorris using http://tantek.com/ as a test case, it doesn't look like any of them fully sort keys
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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willnorris (err, I guess that was the test case I already had above)
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willnorris for anyone that comes along later and wants to try this, I changed the URL slightly for now: http://willnorris.net/mf2compare/?url=http://tantek.com/
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@jkphl Unfortunately I won't make it, but if you have the chance to be there, do it! #indieweb https://twitter.com/t?protected_redirect=true (twitter.com/_/status/736437932287000576)
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aaronpk Whoa
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aaronpk protected redirect?
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aaronpk must be because it's one of tantek's tweets?
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[kevinmarks] Iirc, php makes dicts in insertion order, python in hash order and go randomises them
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KartikPrabhu shouldn't twitter send some sort of HTTP code for those things^^>
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KartikPrabhu I mean protected tweets
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@jorishermans RT @w3c Webmention is a W3C Candidate Recommendation (Call for Implementation) https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439 (twitter.com/_/status/736481030241193985)
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@scott_gruber RT @w3c Webmention is a W3C Candidate Recommendation (Call for Implementation) https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439 (twitter.com/_/status/736490844132253696)
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@Thuemer tried to indiewebify.me got tricked by the web sign in test. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/736492000653021184)
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@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/736506835386138624)
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micajah hi. i want to cross post between fb twitter and other social media and my ghost blog, but its not original writing i want to make a links/newsletter like a firehose thing on a topic. so im not concerned about owning content is there any info on which is best first place to post ie from fb or twitter or out of my ghost blog? thanks
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tantek what is digikam?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "digikam" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MJ
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tantek !tell cweiske what is digikam? (gps correlator?) It looks like we don't have a page for "digikam" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MJ
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ben_thatmustbeme It's a photo organization software
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tantek photo organization always seem to be quite a challenge
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tantek no one has quite figured out a good capture, publish, organize, archive flow that's easily maintainable over time
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tantek certainly not one that emphasizes indieweb /principles
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ben_thatmustbeme You know what wasn't the challenge I was expecting..... this. https://ben.thatmustbe.me/mobilepub
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tantek tbh the purple on med/dark grey links are hard to read
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tantek when I enter "tantek.com" I get a red "Failed to Login" with no explanation
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ben_thatmustbeme Wait you don't do micropub do you?
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ben_thatmustbeme And yeah. It's very early. I just got it actually working this morning
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ben_thatmustbeme Well like an hour ago
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ben_thatmustbeme Now go offline mode and refresh though.... Entire thing is cached by a service worker
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tantek whoa
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tantek no I don't have micropub yet, but was hoping for a nice error message :)
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tantek e.g. I don't know if it just didn't like my "tantek.com" without "http://" or if it couldn't find my micropub endpoint or ...
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tantek it didn't even attempt IndieAuth flow, which I would have expected
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kylewm No point in starting the indieauth flow if it can't find your micropub endpoint
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tantek kylewm: I'm not sure about that
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tantek I think people like stuff at least partially working
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tantek it gives a sense of hey I got this far at least
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tantek instead of being immediately rejected
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tantek plus then the error messages can be personalized a bit
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tantek by reading their representative h-card from their home page
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tantek and they can be encouraged to take the next steps to get more working
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tantek e.g. "Hey Tantek, thanks for signing in! Currently mobilepub only works with sites that support micropub, and we don't seem to be able to find your micropub endpoint. Unsure what that is or want to learn how to add it to your site? Check out: https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub"
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ben_thatmustbeme PRs welcome, github.com/dissolve/mobilepub
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ben_thatmustbeme web-only branch
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tantek I'll add it as a feature request :)
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kylewm Hmm I think Quill handles this the best way... It gives an error message right away that shows you which endpoints it found and which it didn't
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tantek just thinking about emotional design here
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tantek the goal is to get more people to try it and use it right?
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tantek a little bit of success/kindness up front can make a big difference in that
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kylewm Before shuffling you off to indieauth.com
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tantek everyone appreciates encouragement
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tantek kylewm maybe. a heads-up may be nice for those that don't want to bother signin-in if they can't do anything more. OTOH a "would you like to try signing in anyway?" prompt may be a nice encouragement too
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kylewm Think of all the bug reports you'd get! "It let me sign in but then it wouldn't do anything"
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kylewm Assuming people click buttons without reading all the text :)
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sknebel is there any scenario where you'd want login and *then* present the endpoints? E.g. different logins get to use different endpoints?
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tantek really? I think a brief kind message up front would avoid such bug reports
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sknebel (is there a mechanism to discover endpoints with the authentication?)
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tantek sknebel: I don't know how different micropub endpoints would work
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kylewm Is this like the idea that you might give different clients different endpoints?
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tantek what's the use case for that?
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sknebel just noticed that discovery would be an issue as well, since fetching the main page again with auth to potentially get the right endpoint isn't standardized as well (?)
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kylewm I cannot remember what the use case was
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+2315) "FAQ, what should or should not go on the wiki, summary in Why with link to below" (view diff)
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tantek kylewm: then it probably doesn't matter
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tantek speaking of which, community review please?
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tantek freshly written, in a presumed community voice, would appreciate some verification/validation that this easily resonates with folks here (and any issues if it doesn't!) https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#FAQ
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tantek is reading logs from last weekend
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tantek also welcome: improvements in spelling/grammar/tone
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sknebel tantek: there is documentation for many Silos/other services on the wiki, e.g. where you try to find patterns/interesting features, that might be worth a line and some explaination in the "should go on the wiki" section? (as in, what is important/useful on such pages, maybe link a good example)
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tantek yes I should make that exception more clear
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+412) "/* FAQ */ silos for UX, site-deaths" (view diff)
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tantek sknebel: ^^^ how's that?
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sknebel tantek: good!
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tantek sknebel: thanks! appreciate the review!
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kylewm.com created /Arch (+92) "prompted by tantek" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /uwsgi (+98) "prompted by tantek" (view diff)
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tantek reacji in Wikipedia_talk pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Meetup/San_Francisco#Events_with_a_wiki_component ;)
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@WillNoel RT @textandbytes Blog post: http://lombardpress.org/2016/04/16/iiif-webmentions/ and slides: http://lombardpress.org/slides/2016-05-11-iiif-webmentions/ from last week's presentation about the use of #Webmentions in #IIIF (twitter.com/_/status/736568014280261633)
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[kevinmarks] Ben, it rejects my known.kevinmarks.com url too - says nothing is suitable
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tantek !tell gRegorLove here's an example of another wiki-based event page, curious what your thoughts are regarding design, presentation, and how if any of it is something we could/should re-use/adopt on our own event pages https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bay_Area_WikiSalon,_April_2016
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell gRegorlove I was also at that event in person so can provide additional context if you have any qs
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm !tell willnorris https://mf2.kylewm.com is working now
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell chrisaldrich re: "my issue is usually remembering the huge list of microformats to include", would love to chat about that to better understand it some time, hopefully to help make it easier. Context: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-20/line/1463806033428
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek what is Arch?
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Loqi Arch is a rolling-release Linux distribution https://www.archlinux.org/ https://indiewebcamp.com/Arch
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tantek.com edited /Arch (+210) "dfn tweaks, examples, see also" (view diff)
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kylewm not sure it's worth mentioning what linux distribution i use on my laptop on the wiki
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kylewm what is OSX?
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tantek oh I thought it was a server thing
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "OSX" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MS
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tantek kylewm: I suppose Linux adoption is interesting / useful because it is another form of independence?
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tantek perhaps that's a stretch for indie *web*
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tantek also left laptop/server ambiguous in the list
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tantek because in some cases (e.g. aaronpk), it's ambiguous which is which or both ;)
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kylewm I should be running openSUSE :)
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tantek what is openSUSE?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "openSUSE" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10MT
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kylewm since they are the only linux distro that supports IndiewebCamp!
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Loqi it is probable
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kylewm funny that they are in our footer but not actually on the wiki
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@JamesC_Smith I just registered for IndieWeb Summit 2016 https://ti.to/indiewebcamp/summit-2016 (twitter.com/_/status/736573277221490690)
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tantek kevinmarks, re: https://twitter.com/sigfig/status/734171757146316800 if your standard needs to explicitly say it is "simple" in the name, it likely isn't simple in substance.
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@sigfig no protocol with the word "simple" in its name can ever be anything but an overcomplicated monstrosity (twitter.com/_/status/734171757146316800)
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tantek this post is a good subtle criticism of Medium and the illusion of a "Medium community" https://adactio.com/journal/10675
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Loqi [Jeremy Keith] Owning my words
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tantek !tell Garbee any chance you can remote participate in the IndieWeb Summit next week? Add yourself! https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Guest_List#Remote_Participants
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek sknebel: more re: " reason why "this week in indieweb" gets sent out on Friday and not on the weekend", Fridays tend to be slower (in terms of getting things done) so it makes sense to use that time to capture / reflect / broadcast what's been done the rest of the week.
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tantek also, it's a good encouragement for folks (especially in Europe!) to take the (rest of the) evening off :)
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tantek.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (+824) "New Community Members done! Add FAQ, Why sent on Friday" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /this-week-in-the-indieweb (+212) "/* Ideas */ couple of ideas from http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-22#t1463934832389" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk++ seriously well done with the kind responses here. Thank you for this. https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/734440481350815745
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@aaronpk @hmans Please do! Would love to hear more feedback. Also see https://indiewebcamp.com/generations for some more thoughts on this. (twitter.com/_/status/734440481350815745)
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tantek awe no karma + URL?
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tantek aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 141 karma
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tantek.com created /Template:cdevroe (+144) "create since I used it" (view diff)
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miklb heh, looking at that generations page, I'm a 1.5 I guess :-)
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tantek.com created /Template:warn (+119) "inline warning with title" (view diff)
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tantek welcome miklb :)
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miklb I've always been a 'tweener though.
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tantek.com edited /Template:warn (+10) "{}" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+289) "/* 2016 */ add owning words etc. posts from adactio cdevroe, warn jsdr" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /js;dr (+935) "another article, link to / excerpt from HN, Reddit threads" (view diff)
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tantek great fallback text for when Disqus JS embed is not loaded: "Apologies, but part of running a static blog is that the comments are served by Disqus's JavaScript slurry. If it's any consolation, you're probably not missing much. :)"
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+938) "/* Reinforcing shallow dopamine responses */ Pacifies isolates people with comfort bubbles" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Facebook (+74) "/* Pacifies isolates people with comfort bubbles */ also add medium POSSE copy" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk++ for https://aaronparecki.com/media/file-20160522191740-15248.png super cool looking!
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Loqi aaronpk has 142 karma
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tantek !tell aaronpk any chance we can get faces/icons on these too? https://aaronparecki.com/media/file-20160522191740-15248.png
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell aaronpk plus s/Portland<br/>2016/IndieWeb Summit 2016<br/>Portland, Oregon :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk I don't want to have to print them in color, and black and white faces don't look as good
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 minute ago: any chance we can get faces/icons on these too? https://aaronparecki.com/media/file-20160522191740-15248.png http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464451920419
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tantek aaronpk: makes sense. also if people are wearing them the presumably their face is already visible :)
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tantek s/them the/them then
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Loqi tantek meant to say: aaronpk: makes sense. also if people are wearing them then presumably their face is already visible :)
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tantek.com edited /wikifying (+805) "/* Tweetable definitions */ Progressive Disclosure of Content" (view diff)
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tantek !tell sknebel,aaronpk re: your chat here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-22#t1463942553571 I think wiki pages can and should do *both*. No need to compromise there. It's not easy but this is a known writing/UX technique. See if this makes sense: https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Progressive_disclosure_of_content
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek !tell chrisaldrich re: "Eventually the wiki will have too much in it for the common person to browse it and be able to get value for the types of choices they'd like to make.", it can be improved, e.g. like Wikipedia.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk: re: https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-05-22-13-50-12.png sounds like you want/need markdown for h-card ;)
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tantek I do wonder if showing HTML+microformats in the source visibly on stickers people share is an inessential "weirdness"
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tantek I can't imagine it would be very appealing to any designers / artists present
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tantek and if anything might convey a sense of, hmm there's a clearly a weird language culture here that's an insider thing that I'm not a part of
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tantek alienation of sorts
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[kylewm] hehe
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tantek hopes that was a good hehe
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[kylewm] yes! it is a great thing to consider
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tantek it also kind of underscores hmans's cynical "disappointingly non-inclusive" point
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[kylewm] https://aaronparecki.com/2015/10/05/12/fun-with-qr-codes could also make some interesting name tags, but maybe even farther up the exclusionary/nerdy scale
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Loqi [Aaron Parecki] Fun with QR Codes
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tantek lol
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tantek probably better for a Cyberpunk meetup. which I'd be happy to go to myself ;)
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[kylewm] I really like the idea of having a microformats cheat sheet available, and also agree that putting it on people’s nametags that they have to wear might be a turnoff to aesthetes
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aaronpk my plan with the h-card stickers was not to put them on the front of the badge
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 13 minutes ago: re: your chat here: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-22#t1463942553571 I think wiki pages can and should do *both*. No need to compromise there. It's not easy but this is a known writing/UX technique. See if this makes sense: https://indiewebcamp.com/wikifying#Progressive_disclosure_of_content http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464452233644
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aaronpk the idea was you'd get a stack of them and you'd give them out to people, and they'd put them in their "face book"
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aaronpk which is a bunch of inserts that go inside the badge
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tantek I understand, that *is* what I was talking about
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aaronpk also that mockup doesn't actually accomplish what i want with it
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tantek creating a "weird" token that's expected to be used in a social exchange context
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tantek sets off all kinds of non-coder empathy alaarms
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tantek when we should be doing the opposite, focusing on adding to the experience of IndieWeb Summit that is *more* encouraging of non-coders
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aaronpk i just can't figure out how to make it look right. the idea is that it looks like a mostly normal business/contact card, but also shows the underlying html kind of like how you'd see a semi finished drawing still with the wireframe/sketch in it
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tantek ah that's a decent "vision" - which I'd say requires a *very good* designer to make it work
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tantek someone who draws things like architecture diagrams
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tantek which look "pretty" to a broad set of people
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aaronpk right
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aaronpk there's certainly not enough time left to do it this year, so maybe we can think about it for next year
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miklb font choice would make all the difference
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tantek and then you can coin them markupitecture diagrams :P
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aaronpk 😂
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tantek not to be confused with marketecture
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aaronpk anyway, at this point i may only do a simple nametag, since nobody has stepped up to create content for any cheat sheets yet
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[kevinmarks] I do like the idea, but the design is tricky
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[kevinmarks] Speaking as the creator of ugly hovercards
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tantek \o/ finished catching up on logs from last week! Hopefully the wiki additions were a reasonable / useful capture from that: https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&from=20160528000000
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tantek s/week/weekend
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Loqi tantek meant to say: \o/ finished catching up on logs from last weekend! Hopefully the wiki additions were a reasonable / useful capture from that: https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&from=20160528000000
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tantek cheat sheets! aaronpk did you capture the need somewhere we can iterate on it?
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[kevinmarks] Anyone got a good answer to podcast setup on wp?
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tantek finds https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Planning#Cheat_Sheets
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aaronpk yep that's the place
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tantek.com edited /2016/Planning (+169) "/* Cheat Sheets */ can help write, also any other building blocks for a better IndieMark" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: can you add your printing / time constraints to that?
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tantek I'm wondering if shaners and I iterated like on Thursday night would cheat sheets be something we could review/approve at Leaders Summit and print just in time
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aaronpk cutting to size will be the hardest part
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tantek needs to see if he can dig up an actual printed microformats fold-up cheat sheet booklet from back in the day
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aaronpk especially if we do rounded corners to match the nametags
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aaronpk wonders if he can get precut 4x6" paper to print on
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tantek aaronpk: or if it makes it easier, for microformats we made fold-up booklets from normal 8x11 paper that progressively revealed the most immediately/commonly/intro useful stuff first
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tantek as you flipped through it and unfolded it
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aaronpk those were neat
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aaronpk the idea with these is they attach to the nametags so you always have a place to put them
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tantek I think it had 16 individual "pages", double-sided
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tantek could we do attachment with a corner hole-punch like OSBridge nametags?
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aaronpk yep
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aaronpk that's what the white hole in the top left of the nametag mockup represents
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tantek a-ha ok then all you need is a hole-punch that can punch through 16 layers of paper ;)
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aaronpk well i wanted to get the nametags cut with rounded corners
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aaronpk but then the sheets would need rounded corners too, to not stick out
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aaronpk or... battlestar corners
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tantek that's not going to work after folding ;)
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tantek otherwise when you unfold you get holes in the paper
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aaronpk oh i wasn't thinking folded
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[kylewm] aaronpk++ for BSG corners
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Loqi aaronpk has 143 karma
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tantek the nice thing about an 8x11 form factor (that you can fold up) is that it empowers people to print more for their friends
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tantek would BSG corners be another inessential weirdness? ;)
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aaronpk need to make an alternate A4 size layout for the european audience :)
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tantek @media rules :D
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tantek responsive cheat sheets!
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tantek.com edited /2016/Planning (+640) "/* Cheat Sheets */ alternative form, subheads" (view diff)
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tantek goes to get a snack
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@scott_gruber IndieMark - https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark good working map to set goals and guide how to architect my site for next week's @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/736601787336171520)
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miklb markupitecture 😎 http://cdn.miklb.com/images/h-card.png
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell snarfed https://ben.thatmustbe.me/mobilepub
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk snarfed: does granary-demo include the venue data for instagram photos? I can't find any examples of it in my feed
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ben_thatmustbeme !tell snarfed also github.com/dissolve/mobilepub
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: something's wrong with the login
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aaronpk did you hard code indieauth.com?
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ben_thatmustbeme no, but it does fallback to that
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aaronpk fall back?
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aaronpk for micropub? you can't really do that
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ben_thatmustbeme no, for the auth/token part
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aaronpk is confused
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aaronpk there is no fallback way to get an access token.
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ben_thatmustbeme if you don't have auth/token endpoints, it assumes indieauth.com
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aaronpk so just for identity?
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ben_thatmustbeme yes
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aaronpk what does it do if you don't have a micropub endpoint?
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ben_thatmustbeme gives you an error saying 'you don't have a micropub endpoint'
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aaronpk after you sign in?
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ben_thatmustbeme it won't even attempt login
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aaronpk now i'm really confused
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aaronpk what's the fallback for then?
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ben_thatmustbeme sigh.... if you dont' LIST your use of indieauth, most assume indieauth. so really the only requirement is to list the micropub endpoint
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aaronpk oh, don't do that
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aaronpk that doesnt' make sense
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ben_thatmustbeme well, not right now, i do hope to have some things that don't require micropub
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ben_thatmustbeme but yeah, probably not best idea
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ben_thatmustbeme you failed to log in though?
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tantek miklb I think we have different ideas of what architecture diagrams look like ;)
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aaronpk it didn't find my authorization endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm.
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aaronpk it just redirected me to indieauth.com
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tantek mistakenly google image searches for architecture diagram, forgetting that the web is particularly bad about what it considers "architecture"
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ben_thatmustbeme i use indieauth client
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ben_thatmustbeme library that is
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miklb tantek yes, that is really just styled markup
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ben_thatmustbeme and it found your mp endpoint or you wouldn't have gotten redirected
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ben_thatmustbeme weird
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tantek miklb more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architectural_drawing#Standard_views_used_in_architectural_drawing and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueprint#Blueprints_replaced_by_whiteprints
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GWG I finally got those SVG icons working.
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GWG I may be able to finish this project for next week and push a stable version.
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aaronpk http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/c/c9/Ashpd_blueprint_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20110416225556&path-prefix=en
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aaronpk this is neat http://previews.123rf.com/images/nmcandre/nmcandre1206/nmcandre120600107/14209829-Excavator-Blueprint-Part-of-a-series--Stock-Photo-excavator-construction-hydraulic.jpg
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tantek that's more of a exploded view diagram
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tantek this is more what could be useful for your h-card with details https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floor_plan
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aaronpk this is all definitely above my design abilities :)
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tantek same
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miklb hard to see those working on something small though
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tantek aaronpk, the challenge is to start with a nicely designed business card, that has plenty of whitespace for putting all light grey details into
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tantek the point is that something like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sample_Floorplan.jpg is more broadly aesthetically appealing than a bunch of brightly colored markup goo
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tantek subtle/pleasing design is definitely challenging
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tantek OTOH if you think about it, web layout could benefit from similar such sketches as floorplan layout
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miklb no one can ever blame tantek for not being vocally opinionated, can they?
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KevinMarks so I'm playing with it too
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/hovercard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io&template=markedup
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tantek KevinMarks, get it to look/respond/layout well *before* adding the markup text
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tantek it gets much harder if you try to do all that at the same time
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aaronpk at this point, if people are going to help with the h-card design, i would prefer you work on cheat sheet content instead :-)
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KevinMarks http://www.unmung.com/hovercard?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwerd.io&template=markedup
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KevinMarks oops
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tantek aaronpk: but picking colors and dimensions is easier! ;)
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KevinMarks it does respond OK, but the placement of url/photo/name matters
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miklb aaronpk do you have what you want on the cheatsheet somewhere?
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aaronpk https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Planning#Cheat_Sheets
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KevinMarks though the floorplan is emphasizing the room shapes rather than the content
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tantek the rooms are the content
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KevinMarks ben, https://ben.thatmustbe.me/mobilepub/ rejects known.kevinmarks.com but quill is happy with it
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KevinMarks right, but in this case the name, url and photo are the key, not the markup, so the emphasis is inverted from that
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KevinMarks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/mobilepub-doesnt-like-my-endpoints-but-quill-is-happy
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Loqi [Kevin Marks] mobilepub doesn't like my endpoints, but Quill is happy
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KevinMarks I think quill picked known.kevinmarks.com/indieauth/auth
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KevinMarks any ideas ben/aaron
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: found the issue... i fat fingered the if test
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aaronpk quill will *only* redirect to your designated auth endpoint, will never fall back to indieauth.com, because there is nothing it can do if it won't be able to get an access token
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: i just tested it, it looks good
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ben_thatmustbeme same issue that was happening to aaronpk
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ben_thatmustbeme retry now
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aaronpk minor nit: pressing enter in the form field doesn't submit the form
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KevinMarks that seemed to work, but redirected back to login after saying 'please wait'
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i know, i'm going to move off of that
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ben_thatmustbeme that was because of things in cordova
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ben_thatmustbeme it bugs me too
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aaronpk whoa weird, i got a chrome browser error but then it redirected me
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ben_thatmustbeme it also doesn't let you know if its processing or not yet
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aaronpk ack, back button doesn't work
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aaronpk weird. it said "IndieAuth failed, redirecting back to the main application" but there was an auth code in the URL and when it redirected me i am signed in
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KevinMarks so I end up with login shown again
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KevinMarks as if the cookie isn't set or something
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ben_thatmustbeme huh....
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KevinMarks there is a PHPSESSID cookie
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: if you get that, it failed when checkint the auth
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tantek whoa I just figured out (I think) why FB sometimes shows [Going][Maybe][Can't Go] and sometimes shows [Interested][Going][Ignore] as webactions on Event invitations!
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tantek private vs public events!
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: but i was logged in after
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tantek so weird
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KevinMarks I wonder if you're caching it with the sw
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ben_thatmustbeme window.localStorage.getItem('me') and window.localStorage.setItem("token")
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aaronpk tantek: oh that makes sense
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ben_thatmustbeme thats how i test for login
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tantek what? why?
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: its probably an error from failed logins previously
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ben_thatmustbeme s/setItem/getItem/
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aaronpk "interested" is there to be able to let others know of your potential interest in the event, but doesn't make sense on a private event since a private event doesn't need the "boost" of promoting it to a larger network
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tantek do these make sense for indie events too?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks, the SW should only be caching the items i list, the main page is one of them, but it has all the templates in it via handlebars
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KevinMarks so should I flush the cache?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: what does window.localStorage.getItem('me') and window.localStorage.getItem('token') return?
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KevinMarks also the app.js
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aaronpk and I am more likely going to need the "ignore" button for public events since it's a lot easier for me to be "invited" to those because of the way facebook encourages sharing events. If I receive an explicit invite to a private event, it's more likely that the host wants an actual yes/no response vs a silent ignore
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tantek.com edited /event (+143) "/* How to provide an RSVP UI */ list all the buttons and say some subset of depending" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks: you are welcome to tear it apart. the code isn't very much
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KevinMarks it says ServiceWorker registration failed: ReferenceError: success is not defined(…)
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KevinMarks window.localStorage.getItem('me') "http://known.kevinmarks.com/profile/kevinmarks"
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Loqi Ruh roh
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ben_thatmustbeme it should work without the serviceworker anyway
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KevinMarks window.localStorage.getItem('token') ""
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KevinMarks so no tokern
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KevinMarks works with silo.pub https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/736619357212573697
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@kevinmarks so ti seems I can log into twitter via https://t.co/DmXTJyRVgE, but not known (twitter.com/_/status/736619357212573697)
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KevinMarks so loses token for Known
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tantek.com edited /rsvp (+901) "/* Brainstorming */ RSVP Going Maybe Cannot" (view diff)
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tantek thanks for your insights aaronpk. I've captured ASCII mockups of the updated RSVP buttons here (and in the process noticed some more changes from the 2015 buttons) http://microformats.org/wiki/rsvp-examples#2016_RSVP_buttons_update
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Loqi rsvp-examples
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tantek really fascinating seeing what the silos tweak in their UX over time
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tantek especially for /event and /rsvp - these seem to still be evolving in terms of UX understanding
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KevinMarks ben - I wonder if it is because known redirects to the profile url?
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KevinMarks so you get a mismatch
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kylewm What if you put your profile URL in to begin with?
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KevinMarks no, still get no token
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ben_thatmustbeme Huh. I'm going to be setting up a known account to test with aren't i?
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KevinMarks kyle could give you a login on his
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KevinMarks I think mine no longer allows new logins aftre the spammers
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KevinMarks maybe it does
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kylewm pm me your email if you want an invite ben
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KevinMarks likewise
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tantek wait, did Medium change commenting UX / flow at some point? when did that happen? https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/733347880958722048
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@waxpancake Remember when Medium only supported moderated comments that were private by default—effectively eliminating spam and abuse? Good times. (twitter.com/_/status/733347880958722048)
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ben_thatmustbeme You can't guess my email? :-P
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tantek ^^^ lessons to learn for Webmention / Vouch?
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: they were asking for your preferred email for such invitations, assuming you'd have more than since you have your own domain :P
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KevinMarks a couple of times
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KevinMarks their comments are now standalone posts too, so more indieweb in that sense
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snarfed aaronpk: ah, sorry, instagram locations may have been lost in the switch to scraping :(
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Loqi snarfed: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 19 minutes ago: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/mobilepub http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464455915558
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Loqi snarfed: ben_thatmustbeme left you a message 1 hour, 19 minutes ago: also github.com/dissolve/mobilepub http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-28/line/1464455942363
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tantek KevinMarks: if there's posts you can point to to document that history that would be very helpful - add to /Medium#History or something
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aaronpk snarfed: aww. lost as in not available in the HTML? or just forgot to include those?
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snarfed i don't know yet :P
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aaronpk heh
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tantek wow: https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/733347231336517632
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@waxpancake Oh great, response spambots have found @Medium. (Pro tip: Medium doesn't support HTML, morons!) [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/733347231336517632)
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aaronpk well starting june 1, granary be better than nothing
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snarfed heh true!
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tantek spam bots don't care if you don't *currently* support HTML, you may very well in the future, or make the mistake and forget to escape a text field even once
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snarfed aaronpk: oh man are you porting oyg to it?
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aaronpk yeah
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KevinMarks but making them posts made them less good as marginalia
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tantek KevinMarks: wait did the marginalia disappear?!?
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snarfed aaronpk: cool! got a traffic estimate?
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KevinMarks and they are odd posts as they don't have titles so mismatch the article structure
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aaronpk snarfed: that heavily depends on my polling schedule :)
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snarfed aaronpk: good!
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aaronpk looks like currently 101 people using ownyourgram
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snarfed aaronpk: btw re your business card design idea, i wonder if making the content black (name, domain, etc) and the markup light gray could work
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KevinMarks they can still be marginalia, but the length limit went so now they can be a bit odd, and they are shown at the bottom too, and as standalone
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snarfed emphasizes the content and de-emphasizes intimidating technical parts, but they're still there and discoverable
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aaronpk 16 this week (at least 16 that the realtime api picked up this week)
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snarfed ok should be fine then
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snarfed pretty tiny
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snarfed go for it!
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aaronpk i need some guidance on how to create a smart polling schedule tho
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aaronpk feature request for granary: PuSH subscriptions ;-)
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snarfed sure!
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snarfed oh boy true
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snarfed i think it's filed, but feel free to check!
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KevinMarks so https://medium.com/@kevinmarks/they-don-t-enable-the-rich-markup-and-layout-available-in-html-but-do-allow-images-usually-a-2928e2d790fe#.a9behzucc ends up being a response that is moer like a post
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snarfed short answer re polling: just set a few tiers and move users btw them based on how recently you last successfully posted for them
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aaronpk ah that's smart
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aaronpk kylewm: i got a 500 error trying to publish to github with silo.pub
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aaronpk needs better visible logs for syndicating
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kylewm I see it, sorry about that, will fix when I'm back home
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aaronpk oh, i wonder if it's because i set a category that isn't a label on the repo
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kylewm Sp really needs visible logs too
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kylewm It is bc you set a category, but I guess that exercised an untested code path
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aaronpk hm didn't work without the category either
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aaronpk manually posses for now
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aaronpk oh maybe because i don't have a name?
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tantek if anyone with an IndieWebCamp tshirt in person can vouch for the color quality (I guess we'll have to ask shaners about if it worked per his intent) I may want to setting something up to do microformats tshirts too (since there's been a demand for reprinting)
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aaronpk it looks great to me!
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KevinMarks colour is good- no trapping issues
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aaronpk one of the shirts had some alignment issues, i'm going to try sending it back. the rest look great though.
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KevinMarks the other thing with polling is to see how many you missed since last poll and adjust accordingly, but modelling burstiness is hard
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@webrocker Sorry to miss out on the 2016 IndieWeb Summit, but wishing everybody attending a jolly good time (twitter.com/_/status/736638400480976896)
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aaronpk is considering getting webmention.rocks stickers
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GWG aaronpk: Sounds like a fun sticker. Needs whimsy.
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aaronpk i will give one to anyone who can pass at least one of the webmention.rocks tests :)
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aaronpk https://aaronparecki.com/uploads/Screen-Shot-2016-05-28-12-48-16.png
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@FrontEndDaily Webmention Now A W3C Candidate Recommendation: https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439 (twitter.com/_/status/736650271313530882)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /File:calumryan-weather-in-post.png "https://calumryan.com/note.php?noteId=265"
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aaronparecki.com edited /weather (+121) "add calum ryan example" (view diff)
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Loqi [indieweb] "miklb merged pull request miklb/jekyll-indieweb#8" by miklb https://github.com/miklb/jekyll-indieweb/pull/8
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Loqi [indieweb] "miklb commented on pull request miklb/jekyll-indieweb#8" by miklb https://github.com/miklb/jekyll-indieweb/pull/8#issuecomment-222327649
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Loqi [indieweb] "miklb pushed to master at miklb/jekyll-indieweb" by miklb https://github.com/miklb/jekyll-indieweb/compare/7ffe1db895...e20d142d2b
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@pulprk Webmention Now A W3C Candidate Recommendation: https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439 https://twitter.com/FrontEndDaily/status/736650271313530882 via FrontEndDaily (twitter.com/_/status/736652096796282880)
Garbee, wolftune and KevinMarks joined the channel
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KevinMarks so the thing that is weird about http://www.unmung.com/hovercard?url=kevinmarks.com&template=markedup is showing the URL in the first place
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KevinMarks even without the overlaid markup, that is hard to make it look right
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aaronpk why? I show my URL on my actual business cards
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KevinMarks maybe because it's at the top
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KevinMarks blueprint style: http://www.unmung.com/hovercard?url=tantek.com&template=markedup
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@Pvalsfr RT @FrontEndDaily Webmention Now A W3C Candidate Recommendation: https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439 (twitter.com/_/status/736682063676493824)
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[shaners] What's the idea behind showing hcard html on a business card/badge?
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[shaners] Tantek I'll take a look see when I get to PDX.
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aaronpk the idea was not *on* the badge
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aaronpk but as a sticker you'd give to people
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aaronpk to collect others' cards and put them into a "face book"
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[shaners] Oh. Why show the markup?
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aaronpk to double as a quick example of microformats
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[shaners] Oic
KevinMarks joined the channel
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KevinMarks the metaphor is probably more construction lines than blueprints, come to think of it
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aaronparecki.com edited /authorization-endpoint (+6611) "move authorization endpoint content from [[indieauth-for-login]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieauth-for-login () "(-6234) move authorization endpoint content to [[authorization-endpoint]]" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:p3k-auth-prompt.png]]""
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aaronparecki.com edited /authorization-endpoint (+36) "/* Verify the user */ add screenshot of authorization interface" (view diff)
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aaronpk woohoo, good webmention.rocks progress today
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@mjathols RT https://twitter.com/OnMyKindle1/status/736630057746206721 Thanks for the mention! Tammysdragonfly: #BookReviews OnMyKindle1 #OMKindle #BookBlogger #BookNerd #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/736702881806618625)
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ben_thatmustbeme now this is getting super odd... i'm trying to hit the auth endpoint for known, (after getting a code back, trying to verify it) and i get
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ben_thatmustbeme [error] => Invalid auth code