#indiewebcamp 2016-05-25

2016-05-25 UTC
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KevinMarks hm, I need to talk about BEM a bit here
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tantek goes back to attempting to person tag another photo post
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tantek KevinMarks: I suggest a different approach
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tantek table the u-inline-style class names problem post until tomorrow
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tantek and instead, write a post about what Webmention means to *you* personally
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tantek and publish that today
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KevinMarks ?
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KevinMarks I am busy rewriting this one now
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tantek sure, schedule it for tomorrow
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tantek then braindump a paragraph or two on Why Webmention Matters
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tantek and make that your post of today
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tantek (that you POSSE to Medium etc.)
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@mrkrndvs Why We Built Known @benwerd http://stream.withknown.com/2015/why-we-built-known #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735265386350813184)
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@mrkrndvs Respectful Software @benwerd http://benwerd.com/2013/05/24/respectful-software/ #indieweb #ccourses (twitter.com/_/status/735267597038424064)
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KevinMarks OK, rewritten: http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html
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Loqi When u- means style= 2016-05-24
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tantek better
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tantek hey how am I the only one who has webmentioned the Webmention CR? just saying ;) https://webmention.io/api/mentions?target=https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/CR-webmention-20160524/
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KevinMarks how am I the only one to webmention SVG ad PNG?
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KevinMarks http://svgur.com/s/5F
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Loqi indiewebcamp logo
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@kevinmarks Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735271248268140545)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/fashions-in-css-when-u--means-style-u-means-stylehtml-indieweb
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Loqi [indienews] New post: "When u- means style= 2016-05-24" http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html
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KevinMarks ooh, is that an attempted spam webmention? http://mention-tech.appspot.com/
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Loqi [http://localhost:8080/comment/facebook/688447421193285/989912987713392/989912987713392_989958617708829] 27 days agohttp://localhost:8080/comment/facebook/688447421193285/989912987713392/989912987713392_989958617708829 mentioned mention-tech.ap...
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KevinMarks 15 hours ago www.hypercasinos.com mentioned news.indiewebcamp.com/en ❌ 15 hours ago None
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tantek wat
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tantek localhost: ??? sounds like a hack attempt?
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KevinMarks hm, was that me testing it wrong?
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KevinMarks no, I'm on a different port
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@waynedixon RT @kevinmarks Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735272740794597381)
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KevinMarks LOL https://github.com/marmelab/universal.css
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tantek nice find
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@rudzki RT @aaronpk Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to everyone for their contributions and feedback! (twitter.com/_/status/735279986945445888)
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Loqi [indieweb] "[priv] IndieWebify.Me - a guide to getting you on the IndieWeb" by rudzki https://indiewebify.me/
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colintedford https://updatemybrowser.org/ reminds me of the old days of "This site works best in IE6"...
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colintedford From their site: "Websites these days have evolved to *state of the art* applications and todays browsers are built to serve them to you *just right*. But unfortunately, not everybody uses them, yet..."
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@kevinmarks via @smagdali, the final endpoint of u- means style= https://github.com/marmelab/universal.css (previously http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html ) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735283855679053824)
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Loqi [indieweb] "via @smagdali, the final endpoint of u- means style= https://github.com/marmelab/universal.css (previously http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html ) #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/via-smagdali-the-final-endpoint-of-u--means-style-marmelabuniversalcss
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colintedford I just wanna read some stuff without getting state-of-the-arted.
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colintedford Especially when "state of the art" makes news articles as big as video games. https://tommorris.org/posts/9026
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Loqi Size does matter, and if you think it doesn't, you should be ashamed
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colintedford tommorris++ for that post ^
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Loqi tommorris has 96 karma
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tantek good evening #IndieWebCamp!
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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tantek GWG, is there a tl;dr of what happened over the weekend? I literally did not read logs for >48 hrs.
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GWG I've been on and off.
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tantek goes back to manual person-tagging
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[kylewm] the localhost webmentions were almost certainly someone running bridgy locally
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[kylewm] hehe, 22 days ago www.google.de mentioned www.bing.de
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@jotschirr RT @ChPietsch New W3C standard Webmention sounds good: “This mechanism is a core building block for a decentralized (social) Web…” https://twitter.com/w3c/status/735108163704348672 (twitter.com/_/status/735347333223874560)
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@VinAndella Webmention is a W3C Candidate Recommendation (Call for Implementation) #w3 https://www.w3.org/blog/news/archives/5439?pk_campaign=feed&amp%3Bpk_kwd=webmention-is-a-w3c-candidate-recommendation-call-for-implementation (twitter.com/_/status/735349757569294336)
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Loqi [indieweb] "Repost of Kevin Marks's tweet" by Chris Aldrich http://stream.boffosocko.com/2016/repost-of-kevin-markss-tweet-a43b2c3c93
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@ChrisAldrich RT @kevinmarks Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735352253276684288)
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Loqi [indieweb] "10 days til the 6th annual IndieWeb Summit in Portland!
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cweiske tantek, do you have a page of recent articles other than your home page?
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tantek cweiske all I have is my "most recent articles" box in the right column
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tantek for my longer blog posts that have more structure (and explicitly named)
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cweiske I'd like to subscribe to them
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cweiske because your normal posts are too noisy
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tantek to just the longer articles?
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cweiske yes
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tantek heh
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cweiske for my taste, that is
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tantek sure, no problem
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tantek if I made that div into its own h-feed with an ID would that work for your reader?
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tantek it would only pull down permalink + article name
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tantek but presumably readers are good at retriving article contents from permalinks when not provided inline?
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tantek s/retriving/retrieving
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cweiske retrieving content is no problem
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Loqi tantek meant to say: but presumably readers are good at retrieving article contents from permalinks when not provided inline?
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cweiske are there readers that support multiple h-feeds per page?
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tantek that is a very good question - if there were, presumably they would allow selecting a specific fragment identifier h-feed element
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cweiske as in http://tantek.com/##Recent%20Articles
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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tantek right
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cweiske oh my. this opens up a new can of worms
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cweiske find-the-title-of-the-2nd-hfeed-on-the-page
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cweiske which-hfeed-was-meant-with-that-fragment
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cweiske etc
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cweiske an id on the hfeed element would at least get us rid of the fragmention
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tantek right, then assuming it's an h-feed, you just parse it for microformats as you would normally, p-name for feed title etc.
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tantek interesting, this might be a use-case for a plain h-entry with no explicit properties
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tantek I wonder if it can work
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tantek cweiske: ok done.
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cweiske thanks. now I need to hack my feed reader to support it
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tantek h-feed there with a brief p-name, and then a bunch of nested h-entry's with implied name and URL
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tantek http://tantek.com/#recent-articles
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Loqi Tantek Çelik
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tantek this will be an interesting experiment. thanks for the suggestion cweiske!
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tantek should post a new blog post just to iterate it
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KartikPrabhu why not use rel-feed and a URL to identify multiple feeds on a page?
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cweiske then you still need the reader to support #anchors in feed urls
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KartikPrabhu sure
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Loqi [indieweb] "Built a couple #indieweb bookmarklets to Favorite or Retweet and include the Twitter embed on my site. Output example: http://wp.me/p4GIbq-3DE. I’ll post them when I have more time tomorrow." by Scott Kingery http://techlifeweb.com/14002-2/
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@TechLifeWeb Built a couple #indieweb bookmarklets to Favorite or Retweet and include the Twitter embed on my site. Output example: … (twitter.com/_/status/735360951545933824)
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@TechLifeWeb re last tweet, this is the #indieweb example http://techlifeweb.com/13990-2/ (twitter.com/_/status/735361939371634689)
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@SDITSystems RT @TechLifeWeb Built a couple #indieweb bookmarklets to Favorite or Retweet and include the Twitter embed on my site. Output example: … (twitter.com/_/status/735362066173820932)
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@andigalpern Attention Designers in Portland looking to collaborate on projects! You should attend #indiewebsummit on June 3-5. https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#RSVP (twitter.com/_/status/735363191895674880)
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@benwerd RT @andigalpern Attention Designers in Portland looking to collaborate on projects! You should attend #indiewebsummit on June 3-5. https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#RSVP (twitter.com/_/status/735363868269105157)
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@rrrrrrrix RT @andigalpern Attention Designers in Portland looking to collaborate on projects! You should attend #indiewebsummit on June 3-5. https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#RSVP (twitter.com/_/status/735364383698735104)
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@djwesto RT @andigalpern Attention Designers in Portland looking to collaborate on projects! You should attend #indiewebsummit on June 3-5. https://indiewebcamp.com/next-iwc#RSVP (twitter.com/_/status/735364528733573120)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: what use-case does rel-feed help in this case?
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tantek what is rel-feed?
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Loqi rel-feed is the standard for linking to multiple (potentially alternative) h-feeds from a site's homepage using the code rel="feed" on those links https://indiewebcamp.com/rel-feed
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KartikPrabhu what is feed-discovery?
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Loqi feed discovery is a way to, given someone's home page, discover their feed or feeds that they publish https://indiewebcamp.com/feed_discovery
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KartikPrabhu just checking
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cweiske readers don't have to do microformat parsing just to get a list of feeds from a page
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tantek cweiske: would appreicate your feedback on https://indiewebcamp.com/rel-feed
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KartikPrabhu tantek: interesting that feed-discovery does not "officially" had rel-feed in it; but Bridgy does use it to find feeds. But even on the same page, linking with a URL with fragment might help discovery
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tantek I'm going to bed, but will check logs in the morning. If you think it would be particularly useful if I included explicit markup like <link rel="feed" type="text/html" title="Tantek’s recent articles" href="#recent-articles" /> let me know and I can add it in the morning. Otherwise I'm interested in whether just looking for all the h-feed elements on a page is sufficient.
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KartikPrabhu looking for h-feed with a u-uid which is the URL with fragment should be good too
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cweiske what is u-uid?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "u-uid" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10M5
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[kevinmarks] The title stuff is handy
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[kevinmarks] Woodwind uses it to give you a choice
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cweiske same for tt-rss; http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/tiny-tiny-rss-feed-detection.htm#enhancements
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Loqi [Christian Weiske] Feed detection for Tiny Tiny RSS
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cweiske does woodwind support fragmented h-feeds?
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cweiske !tell tantek you already have an article feed at http://tantek.com/updates.atom?ot=article
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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cweiske it's just not linked anywhere
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@linux_everyday https://indieauth.com - Sign in with your domain name (using the rel-me-auth http://microformats.org/wiki/relmeauth protocol. #linux_everyday (twitter.com/_/status/735391336958939137)
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@W3CSverige Ny Candidate Recommendation: länkning ... ”Webmention”. Se http://www.w3c.se/news-archive/2016/05.html#item3097 (twitter.com/_/status/735395708635860993)
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andicascadesf hey everyone. If you want to increase traffic and get more people to register for indiewebsummit, I suggest you create an Eventbrite page as it’s a trusted system and good for advertising.
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andicascadesf so that way you can tweet out a URL and get more designers + writers to register
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@bastianallgeier @janl maybe I just read his stuff differently after the last two indiewebcamps and a couple talks. To me it feels just very passionate. (twitter.com/_/status/735409693921841153)
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@fakebaldur RT @kevinmarks Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735410491204501506)
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@natalia2g Trackbacks, pingbacks y webmentions http://wprincipiante.es/trackbacks-pingbacks-y-webmentions/ vía @wprincipiante (twitter.com/_/status/735417698956529664)
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@mrkrndvs How We Built @withknown http://werd.io/2016/how-we-built-known via @benwerd #indieweb https://twitter.com/mrkrndvs/status/735445455903956993/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/735445455903956993)
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@nxD4n @diplix kriegst du eigtl k(m)eine webmentions mehr? https://nxd4n.nixekinder.be/2016/-sieht-so-franz%C3%B6sich-aus (twitter.com/_/status/735453878670528513)
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GWG Morning
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petermolnar hi
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@Inkwater_Masha Self-Publishing Basics: An Unabridged List of the Parts of a Book http://www.thebookdesigner.com/2009/09/parts-of-a-book/?platform=hootsuite #writetip #selfpub #indieauth (twitter.com/_/status/735466843431968768)
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snarfed hey j4y_funabashi, looks like you have a rogue script or something on your server
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snarfed it's been fetching ~1qps of facebook responses from bridgy since ~2:30am pst
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snarfed j4y_funabashi: temporarily blocked your IP. let me know when it's fixed!
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@WowLookArt RT @wpmudev: Trackbacks vs Pingbacks vs Webmentions for WordPress https://premium.wpmudev.org/blog/?p=153678 #wpmudev (twitter.com/_/status/735481926631428096)
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@mrgunn @MikeTaylor Of course, Mike. You don't know my background, but I recall https://t.co/vXabJXUnp4, Flickr, etc. I'm an indieweb guy. (twitter.com/_/status/735482064699457538)
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@Petersell Aaron Parecki auf Twitter: "Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to .. http://www.petersell.com/2016/aaron-parecki-auf-twitter-webmention-is-now-a-w3c-candidate (twitter.com/_/status/735482738283675649)
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@Petersell RT @aaronpk Webmention is now a @W3C Candidate Recommendation! https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ Thanks to everyone for their contributions and feedback! (twitter.com/_/status/735483029380960259)
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@diplix @nxD4n sieht aus, als sei deine h-entry kaputt. sagt auch https://indiewebify.me/send-webmentions/ https://twitter.com/diplix/status/735484616375554049/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/735484616375554049)
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aaronpk !tell andicascadesf Thanks for the suggestion! I don't want to use eventbrite as well though, since we're already taking registrations through Tito. Check out http://2016.indieweb.org which has the registration form built in.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@jkphl The coffee is fresh, the doors are open — welcome to the 1st Homebrew Website Club in Nuremberg! #indieweb https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/735500282340200450/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/735500282340200450)
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tantek welcome adactio!
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Loqi tantek: cweiske left you a message 9 hours, 19 minutes ago: you already have an article feed at http://tantek.com/updates.atom?ot=article http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464161037174
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adactio tantek: howdy!
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message on 5/11 at 7:00pm: can you confirm/add venue for next week's Homebrew Website Club Brighton? https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2016-05-18-homebrew-website-club#Where Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-11/line/1463018438038
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message on 5/12 at 12:58pm: are you coming to the Leaders Summit? Can you RSVP here accordingly? https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Leaders#RSVP http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-12/line/1463083099732
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Loqi adactio: tantek left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: is HWC Brighton happening this week? (assuming it is) https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#Where http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-16/line/1463419219480
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Loqi adactio: KevinMarks left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: is mapping BEM markup to microformats2 a good idea, or a dodgy hack? https://github.com/kevinmarks/unmung/blob/909fe5dc811f32e4e591922ce10c2dd8d3c9a743/mf2py/backcompat.py#L90 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-17/line/1463493676676
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tantek !tell cweiske yeah I'm looking at obsoleteing that Atom feed, preferring to use h-feed
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@motters Webmention https://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/735514775925493761)
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KevinMarks hi adactio
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KevinMarks following on from that BEM hacking: http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html
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Loqi When u- means style= 2016-05-24
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tantek yeah seriously we need to get @meyerweb on this.
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Loqi [indieweb] "Why do you feel this way? Personally I am glad that Known empowered me to get into the indieWeb :-)" by Hugo Roy https://hugoroy.eu/2016/05/why-do-you-feel-this-way-personally-i-am-glad
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tantek wow that's quite a testimonial!
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tantek also I too disagree with benwerd's sentiment here: http://werd.io/2016/i-really-regret-releasing-known-as-an-open-source-platform
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Loqi [Ben Werdmüller] I really regret releasing Known as an open source platform first. A very poor decision, made with ideology rather than strategy.
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aaronpk wow
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aaronpk well it depends on the goal as to whether releasing it as open source is a good idea
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tantek except maybe the word "platform". don't release "platforms". ship stuff that just helps users (which Known did/does!) and nevermind about trying to be a "platform" until you're like 100s millions users deep
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tantek aaronpk: releasing it as open source was a *great* idea.
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tantek it's why it got so much more traction than so many other approaches
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tantek building an "open source rah rah rah" political identity, not so much a good idea
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tantek those two are very different
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aaronpk on the flip side, i'm really glad I didn't open source the first version of p3k
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tantek utilitarian open source vs. political open source. VERY different
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tantek and I'm ok with the partial open source of /Falcon in bits of cassis.js
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willnorris I've often wished I could see more of Falcon. Not to use myself, but to learn how you deal with certain data, etc. Don't remember specifics, but do recall thinking that on multiple occasions
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tantek willnorris: interesting!
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tantek perhaps clarify what you mean by "certain data" and I'll see if I can modularize those bits and extract them into cassis.js :)
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willnorris LIke I said, I don't remember specifics :) But I'll definitely let you know the next time it comes up
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KevinMarks you've talked about your file-based database replacement works, but not shared code, have you?
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tantek willnorris, I have tried to document general implementation overview here: https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Implementation_Design - perhaps start with reading that and see if it reminds you of any specifics :)
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@hvdsomp It would be lovely to use Webmention in #scholcomm, eg for publication/data linking, but https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 http://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/735521362358468608)
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tantek KevinMarks: ^^^ that description documents enough of the flat file store (https://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Storage_format specifically) for folks to build code using any mf2 parser
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@motters IndieWeb Summit https://t.co/ni65vnBKKX (twitter.com/_/status/735521623927885825)
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tantek which they should do *instead* of using my existing Falcon storage code, because I wrote my existing storage code *before* mf2 parsers were available so it's a giant mf2-ish parser hack
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sknebel tantek: do you have a cache in front of that or does all that run for every request?
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tantek lol DOI (re: issue 42)
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tantek sknebel: *every request*
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sknebel thanks (I always worry unspecifically about performance (which is a bad habit), so I was curious)
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tantek sknebel: much of the storage format design was very much up front motivated by performance considerations of common use-cases
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tantek e.g. rendering home page, rendering permalinks
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tantek ideally both of which require only *two* file reads
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tantek and if those files are already cached in the server/OS layer, they come straight from that memory cache, not disk, so no need for higher level cache
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sknebel still, XML-parsing a large storage file just to show a single post sounds expensive as well
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tantek sknebel: possibly. so far PHP DomDocument seems fairly well optimized, and my storage files are typically < 100k
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tantek my storage files are a *fraction* of the total size of bytes that most web pages *transfer* from server to client just to render
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tantek HTML/CSS/JS parsing megabytes on the browser is MUCH slower than XML parsing a 100k file on the *server*
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sknebel true
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tantek like we're talking 100x difference at a minimum in speed costs
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@jkphl What a great start! 6 people chatting & hacking on their #indieweb sites @ Homebrew Website Club :) https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/735523621389631488/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/735523621389631488)
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tantek jkphl++ yeah!!!
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Loqi jkphl has 4 karma
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tantek photo!!!
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tantek sknebel: note that in order to come up with those #s ("two file reads" at most per request, <100kb storage files), I had to ahem, invent my own calendaring system ;)
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sknebel tantek: whatever works ;) I don't even have pagination yet, so I'll worry about that stuff some time later
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sknebel (as in, when getting a list of all files in a folder and sorting it alphabetically gets to slow)
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tantek sknebel: I suggest considering implementing /archives before pagination
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tantek sknebel: whoa yeah, my "year" folders only have ~15 files in them at most, and I never have to get them as a "list"
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tantek all of them are accessed directly by algorithmically generating the names
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sknebel for me the issue was that with prescheduled posts the order id-wise not necessarily is the timeline-order, so the quick fix was folders with symlinks with timestamps as names to generate the index-pages
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sknebel permalinks look the file/folder up directly, index pages get the visible posts in the right order from the index folders
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sknebel not sure if "neat" or "ugly hack" ;)
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tantek sknebel: interesting
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sknebel tantek: that was the first moment where I thought "okay, a database would have made that easier", but I wanted to avoid using one
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sknebel If I make a big change it would right now rather be towards something more static
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sknebel e.g. just regenerate the index pages when a new post is added and serve them statically
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sknebel but it works for now, so no need to mess with it
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@schmittlein77 RT @jkphl What a great start! 6 people chatting & hacking on their #indieweb sites @ Homebrew Website Club :) https://twitter.com/jkphl/status/735523621389631488/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/735527569873903616)
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tantek sknebel: you can do the "BASIC line-numbering hack" to work around the "order id-wise" problem
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sknebel tantek: as in, do 10-steps and fill the gaps if necessary?
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tantek That is, for a prescheduled post, give it an "estimated" ID number that is at least "10" away from the next previous ID for that day (assuming day-scoped IDs) so that you can post at least 9 things before the prescheduled post.
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tantek right
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tantek and if 10 is too little, then 100 etc.
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aaronpk i miss BASIC line numbering
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tantek lol really? And here I thought I was dating myself ;)
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sknebel I'd say you are both dating yourself, but since I started out with Turbo Pascal I'd be dangerously close as well :P
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sknebel (I remember being quite confused when suddenly most of the people with programming experience in the class I tutored had done mobile app development)
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[kylewm] Well the ipfs guy said he grew up on the internet, so I think maybe we're all dated
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tantek turbopascal++
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Loqi turbopascal has 1 karma
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tantek kylewm: he probably meant "web". even I grew up on the "internet". 1980s FTW!
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[benatwork] turbopascal++
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Loqi turbopascal has 2 karma
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[benatwork] I wrote so many little shareware games in Pascal ...
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tantek there he is
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tantek shareware++
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Loqi shareware has 1 karma
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[benatwork] the slack bridge doesn’t log you into IRC unless you say something
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[benatwork] I am always listening :wink:
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[kevinmarks] Did BASIC line numbers influence Cupertino Street numbers, or was it the other way round?
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tantek KevinMarks: pretty sure suburb address numberings by 10 (or more) predate BASIC
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[kevinmarks] What was the Mac Pascal dev tool before Lightspeed C?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Mac Pascal dev tool before Lightspeed C" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10M6
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[kevinmarks] In Cupertino each block is 100, yet has under 10 buildings on usually
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@anjacks0n RT @hvdsomp It would be lovely to use Webmention in #scholcomm, eg for publication/data linking, but https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 http://www.w3.org/TR/webmention/ (twitter.com/_/status/735535289742036997)
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[benatwork] That’s relatively normal in the US I think?
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aaronpk yeah
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bear chuckles at all the younguns
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KartikPrabhu :P
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bear why I remember having to hand compile my assembler *and* disassemble the output
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bear ^^ the programming equivalent of "having to walk uphill in both directions" comment
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sknebel bear, since there was some talk of site-internals before: is your website somewhat accurately described as "a few flask endpoints for dynamic things, feeding a static site generator through redis"?
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bear redis is used for state only, everything is is static generated
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bear the dynamic parts write files and then use redis to trigger running a command to rebuild
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sknebel k, thx
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bear you can see all of it in https://github.com/bear/kaku/
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sknebel ah, hadn't seen that you published all of it (or forgotten)
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bear it was last week I think that I pushed most of it public
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bear before then it was all still gnarly prototype code
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degrey Hallo everyone! Are there any Kirby users here today?
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tantek bear++ for cleaning up and open sourcing kaku! (a bit jealous :) )
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Loqi bear has 135 karma
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@hvdsomp Paywalls in #scholcomm make using web standards very hard. Could being webby give competitive edge for #openaccess? https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 (twitter.com/_/status/735553265044185088)
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@for_Content RT @hvdsomp Paywalls in #scholcomm make using web standards very hard. Could being webby give competitive edge for #openaccess? https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 (twitter.com/_/status/735554419526406146)
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M-Kodo for micropub it says "Add a <link> tag in the HTML head of your home page, or send an HTTP Link header." is the "HTML head" just the "/" route?
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M-Kodo er
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M-Kodo nevermind head if head tag although the same question exists for "home page"
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M-Kodo is head tag*
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@pendragon_dt @anarchivist @BArmintor @azaroth42 @cm_harlow …Are we talking about WebMention? *Clueless* (twitter.com/_/status/735557691997753344)
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aaronpk The HTTP header goes on whatever page you're using as the identity when signing in to an app
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@hs0ucy RT @benwerd New resolution: buy more music on Bandcamp. https://blog.bandcamp.com/2016/05/19/bandcamp-downloads-streaming-and-the-inescapably-bright-future/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/735564722402164736)
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tantek !tell kylewm could you post an indie event and POSSE FB copy for next HWC SF? https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#San_Francisco Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@awolftune @davidgraeber Uni website okay, if ever anything else, see @indiewebcamp http://indiewebcamp.com — best resources for non-corporate tech! (twitter.com/_/status/735566213946834944)
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Loqi [indieweb] "via @smagdali, the final endpoint of u- means style= https://github.com/marmelab/universal.css (previously http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html ) #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/via-smagdali-the-final-endpoint-of-u--means-style-marmelabuniversalcss
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Loqi [indieweb] "Fashions in CSS: when u- means style= http://www.kevinmarks.com/u-means-style.html #indieweb" by Kevin Marks http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/fashions-in-css-when-u--means-style-u-means-stylehtml-indieweb
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@tonyR_H RT @hvdsomp Paywalls in #scholcomm make using web standards very hard. Could being webby give competitive edge for #openaccess? https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 (twitter.com/_/status/735567517163327488)
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willnorris aaronpk: what would you think of adding JSONP support to pin13.net/mf2/? I'm hoping to build a litlte service at the summit next week that calls all the different live microformat parsers and compares their results side by side.
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tantek willnorris, you're coming? awesome!!! can you add yourself here too? https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Guest_List
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tantek goes to sort
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tantek.com edited /2016/Guest_List (-2) "/* RSVPs */ sort" (view diff)
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willnorris I gotta say, trying to register for these events is exhausting b/c there are too many disparate places
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willnorris I already indie rsvp'ed to http://2016.indieweb.org/
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Loqi IndieWeb Summit
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willnorris now I gotta updat ehte wiki too?
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tantek yeah that's the only necessary one
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tantek not gotta, but just a "if you want, and list what you're working on etc."
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tantek I'll see if I can update the docs to make that clearer
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KevinMarks wow, degrey did a beautiful thing: https://twitter.com/ERdeGrey/status/735567831534702592
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willnorris This is actually why I didn't come to IWC SF last year. I RSVP'd at https://willnorris.com/2015/10/attending-indiewebcamp, and then found out like a day before the event that there was an eventbrite or something I was supposed to use, but that said there were no spaces left
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@ERdeGrey had a migraine yesterday & am stubborn about Doing Things Anyway so this happened. new commission portrait style? [photo] (twitter.com/_/status/735567831534702592)
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Loqi [Will Norris] Attending IndieWebCamp SF 2015
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tantek wait what?!?
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tantek I think we thought you were a no-show
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tantek darn it. eventbrite convincing someone to not go. that's a horrible fail. (not on your part)
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tantek we definitely had the space
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tantek lots of eventbrite sign-ups that didn't show
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tantek (as is usual for "free" events)
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willnorris I think put myself on the wait list or something, and someone did end up contacting me saying there was room, but at that point I had moved on and made other plans
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tantek sigh
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tantek and this is why we are charging $5 for the non-indie-web sign-up system
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willnorris if we're going to support indie rsvps, then we should really support it. There shouldn't need to be s econd step
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tantek agreed
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tantek aaronpk ^^^
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willnorris yeah, I really like the system this year. It's really clear what needs to be done
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willnorris still two steps, but it's clear that the indie rsvp is saving me the $5. It's obvious that there is actually a separate registration that needs to happen. That wasn't clear in previous years
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aaronpk I really want to have only one place to RSVP
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willnorris.com edited /2016/Guest_List (+207) "add Will Norris to guest list" (view diff)
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aaronpk Id like to frame the guest list not as your registration to the event but more like letting people know more about you
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tantek working on exactly that
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KevinMarks could the h-card from the indie rsvp pre-fill the guest list?
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aaronpk Programmatically editing the wiki is difficult but not impossible
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tantek.com edited /2016/Guest_List (+59) "make it clear most of this page is for participant projects, official RSVP is still 2016.indieweb.org" (view diff)
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aaronpk at that point I might as well go all the way with letting people fill out their guest list info during the Tito registration and add them automatically
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Salt awesome, worked out schedule so I should be able to make IWS
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tantek except the editing/updating problem
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tantek tito doesn't allow that
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tantek this is the classic event sign-up problem
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tantek where once you're done with the sign-up flow, nearly all software/services bail on updating anything
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@kevinmarks Yes: I'm going to remote attend IndieWebCamp Summit 2016 - wish I could be there: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/yes-im-going-to-remote-attend-indiewebcamp-summit-2016 (twitter.com/_/status/735580377167761408)
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aaronpk updating problem?
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tantek you can't edit your entry
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tantek eventbrite etc. all have this problem
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aaronpk Most of the time people don't even try to update their guest list entry after they create it tho
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tantek because it's not possible with event systems
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tantek so either you face the cognitive load of a huge form with lots of fields just to sign-up
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aaronpk i mean on our wiki
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tantek = fewer sign-ups
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KevinMarks so, shoudl I not chekc the boxes for remote attendance?
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KevinMarks as I'm not consuming food
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tantek anyway, willnorris & aaronpk - how's the reframing at the top here: https://indiewebcamp.com/2016/Guest_List ?
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aaronpk also the Tito integration I'm thinking of would be just a shortcut for adding yourself to the wiki. You could always go log in and edit the wiki later
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KevinMarks am I consuming a spot by rmeote attending?
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tantek a spot in what system?
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KevinMarks "Venue Capacity: 50 Signed-up via Indie RSVP to 2016.indieweb.org: 12"
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KevinMarks I see 11 rsvps on the page
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willnorris yeah, lgtm
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Salt goes to rsvp
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KevinMarks in whatever system is filling up
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Salt darn, thought the $5 was for a t-shirt, looks like that was missed, too many things!
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aaronpk there will be shirts available at the summit! But they will not be $5 ;-)
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KevinMarks why is there a '</div> <!-- h-event vevent -->' in the Remote section?
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kevinmarks.com edited /2016/Guest_List (+392) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks shoudl that be after me?
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jonnybarnes I’ve just got a red banner at the top of my github saying “One of our mostly harmless robots seems to think you are not a human.”
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jonnybarnes anyone else seen that?
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aaronpk screenshot!
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aaronpk that sounds mildly terrifying
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willnorris mostly harmless?
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KevinMarks ah, yes, it shoudl Or I'm not an attendee
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kevinmarks.com edited /2016/Guest_List (+1) "/* Remote Participants */" (view diff)
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aaronpk "One of our mostly harmless robots seems to think you are not a human. The three laws of robots no longer apply to you."
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willnorris :)
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bear that is something new that github is displaying if your user profile appears to be a "machine user"
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bear I see it all the time for my infra users
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aaronpk oh i have one of those users
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jonnybarnes whats an infra user?
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aaronpk they haven't caught on to it yet
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jonnybarnes also my screenshot wont open
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aaronpk a user account i use to deploy things and such
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bear users that I create that are for automation
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willnorris huh, haven't seen it yet for any of our google robot users. Does the message link to anything?
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jonnybarnes oh infrastructure
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werd.io edited /2016/Guest_List (+279) "/* Participant Projects */ werd.io" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes asks you to conatact support
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@rrmutt @kevinmarks How can I find out about upcoming indieweb events? Mostly learn about them too late: when you tweet from them :) (twitter.com/_/status/735584264821964800)
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willnorris At one point GitHub Support mentioned that they were likely going to request that these kind of robot accounts link to a page that explains its use which also has a link back to the account. Basically, a "bi-directional rel-me". Which is why we have https://developers.google.com/open-source/github/accounts
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willnorris so it sounded like it was going to be an officially supported thing
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@aaronpk @rrmutt You can sign up for the weekly newsletter! https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week (twitter.com/_/status/735584518195679232)
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@kevinmarks well, @rrmutt the most comprehensive list is at https://indiewebcamp.com/events there's a newsletter: https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week and on facebook (twitter.com/_/status/735584724341526528)
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[kevinmarks] rel-me is good for that
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jonnybarnes https://i.imgur.com/UEIwBGA.png
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jonnybarnes thats what it looks like
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@rasmusvuori @kevinmarks @rrmutt I have a bit of the same problem. And I'd love to see some IndieWeb activity here in Finland too, anyone interested? (twitter.com/_/status/735585626419015680)
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willnorris oh interesting. I actually have a few accounts I would *want* to be hidden from the public :)
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@WillaCassandra_ RT @kevinmarks well, @rrmutt the most comprehensive list is at https://indiewebcamp.com/events there's a newsletter: https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week and on facebook (twitter.com/_/status/735585727598211072)
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@Valerie_Janelle RT @kevinmarks well, @rrmutt the most comprehensive list is at https://indiewebcamp.com/events there's a newsletter: https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week and on facebook (twitter.com/_/status/735585729175269376)
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Loqi [indieweb] "this-week-in-the-indieweb - IndieWebCamp" http://indiewebcamp.com/this-week
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kevinmarks.com edited /News_Genius (+306) "/* Articles */" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes the red bar has gone now
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@nicolas2fr RT @kevinmarks Yes: I'm going to remote attend IndieWebCamp Summit 2016 - wish I could be there: http://known.kevinmarks.com/2016/yes-im-going-to-remote-attend-indiewebcamp-summit-2016 (twitter.com/_/status/735588369024069633)
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aaronpk i'm going to send an email update through Ti.to to everyone who's registered
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aaronpk anyone want to help draft the email?
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aaronpk I want to include things like encouraging people to join the chat and introduce themselves, as well as suggest filling out your info on the guest list wiki page
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aaronpk and that there will be t-shirts for sale at the event if you didn't order one yet
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tantek aaronpk - yeah! and for the chat, give the Slack option too
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aaronpk definitely!
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tantek this is worth templatizing for future re-use
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tantek what is welcome?
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Loqi Welcoming is how we as a community welcome new members to our community http://indiewebcamp.com/welcome
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tantek.com edited /welcoming (+417) "start a before events section, linking to two templates to start" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /message-before-iwc (+537) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - here's a stub of a start: https://indiewebcamp.com/message-before-iwc go for it!
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aaronpk awesome thanks!!
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aaronparecki.com edited /message-before-iwc (+127) "directly link to slack signup page, add next-hwc" (view diff)
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@kevinmarks backing loop for #indiewebcamp http://typedrummer.com/24o2r2 (twitter.com/_/status/735598013305872384)
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aaronpk that's hilarious
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bear https://medium.com/@dwdbah/open-standards-monocultures-and-diversity-ed82bb81a9a7#.fszgegioi
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tantek that's pretty decent
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tantek bear, worth adding to /monoculture
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tantek bear, do you know the author? invite them to IndieWeb Summit?
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bear he's one of the XSF folks
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tantek what is XSF?
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Loqi The XMPP Software Foundation (XSF) is an organization with the primary mission of creating and maintaining the standards required to implement software that uses the XMPP protocols http://indiewebcamp.com/XSF
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aaronpk this is great too https://medium.com/@dwdbah/this-entire-article-is-essentially-saying-that-twitter-the-concept-is-a-great-thing-but-twitter-b29937ebc34f#.ie02n0jyl
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tantek bear, of course he laments having to tweet on Twitter, but then blogs on Medium instead of his own website? just sayin ;)
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bear we (xsf folks) just got done giving him grief about that point exactly about an hour ago
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aaronpk haha
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tantek lolololol
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bear his response: "But I'm waiting, because I want to do something insane that I'm lacking time on."
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aaronpk heh i can sympathize with that
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tantek just in case it's not clear to those following along at home, this kind of friendly mockery is reserved only for those who are particularly positioned in such open standards work, and especially when they write such things
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tantek aaronpk, re: that second article, totally disagreed. he's missing a lot
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tantek e.g. this is false: "Now open your eyes, realise we’ve done all of that (and more), often several times over"
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tantek in fact, the falsehood of that statement is exactly why IndieWebCamp exists
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aaronpk that's true
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@shawnmjones RT @hvdsomp Paywalls in #scholcomm make using web standards very hard. Could being webby give competitive edge for #openaccess? https://github.com/aaronpk/webmention/issues/42 (twitter.com/_/status/735603618557120513)
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tantek bear, please feel free to pass along the firm assertion that his statement "Now open your eyes, realise we’ve done all of that (and more), often several times over" is 100% false, trivially demonstrably. So.
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bear not sure I follow your point
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tantek here's a reasonably thorough feature summary of "Twitter the concept" https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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tantek NO ONE has "done all of that (and more), often several times over".
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bear he is saying that people have created programs that use open standards and succeed
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tantek no.
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tantek "Let’s pretend that instead of a Twitter account being something that you get from Twitter, let’s pretend it’s more like an email account”Š—”Šyou can get it from wherever you want."
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tantek He is directly providing the example of *Twitter*
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tantek not just "programs that use open standards"
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tantek my point is, if he's going to cite Twitter-the-concept, then he needs to back up his claims
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bear I wasn't associating that sentance with the twitter paragraph but instead with the one right above about building an ecosystem
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tantek or rather, it's trivial to refute his claims by summarizing Twitter-the-concept even as a list of features, and throw that down as a challenge
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tantek bear, even that paragraph assumes Twitter in particular, per "Maybe some services even have Moments, who knows. "
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tantek Moments is a lame Twitter-specific feature
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bear k, I gave him the log link - he is UK based so may not be awake
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tantek the point is, "we cannot figure out how to persuade people that this really is a better deal for the individual, for the companies, for essentially everyone" because it's not, because no one has "done all that"
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bear which is why we need to get him on his own blog so the above can be tracked by him
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tantek right
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GWG I have joined the chat
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tantek Welcome GWG!
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tantek :D
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aaronpk wonders what "something insane" he's planning
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tantek if it's not a time travel it's not insane enough :P
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GWG New is what?
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tantek s/a time travel/time travel other than the default of 1s/1s/
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Loqi tantek meant to say: if it's not time travel other than the default of 1s it's not insane enough :P
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tantek bear, anyway this is excellent https://medium.com/@dwdbah/open-standards-monocultures-and-diversity-ed82bb81a9a7 and would be a great related articles addition to /monoculture
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bear.im edited /monoculture (+125) "add dwd article" (view diff)
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GWG I just found something that might help my SVG problem
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KevinMarks hm, 76 people in the queue for activitstrea.ms wiki http://wiki.activitystrea.ms/w/users/#view=pending
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aaronpk that redirects me to the home page. is it only visible when signed in?
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dwd1 Ah, IRC. Like the 80's never ended.
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tantek I mean, IRC is an open standard right?
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KevinMarks yes
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dwd1 No.
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KevinMarks and you can choose a web client https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-24
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dwd1 IRC is close, but it's handled by ad-hoc work, so it's impossible to point at one thing at say it's IRC. Servers don't interop, and so on.
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tantek same problem XMPP right?
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dwd1 Loving that this webclient says it's connecting all the time, too.
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tantek ^^^ aaronpk we saw that "connecting..." problem in Düsseldorf
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aaronpk but the protocol is relatively well documented, so anyone can come and make a client
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aaronpk oh shoot is that still happening?
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tantek yep ^^^ see dwd1 statement
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dwd1 But anyway, I'm UK-based so headed to bed, but just to say "done all of that" really referred to the previous paragraph, and that article was really just a comment that got out of hand, anyway. I agree it's not my best writing.
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tantek dwd1 sleep well - the monoculture article was quite appreciated
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Kevinweb hm
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aaronpk thanks, will fix it
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dwd1 aaronpk, I *have* written a client. It's not much fun, though, and it required tweaking to operate on all servers.
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tantek if anything, there's a lot of sympathy here with the "Twitter-the-concept" vs. "Twitter-the-company" isssue/divide etc.
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Kevinweb it said connecting again when I types
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Kevinweb s/pes/ped/
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Loqi Kevinweb meant to say: it said connecting again when I typed
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tantek dwd1 "tweaking to operate on all servers" is unfortunately true for A LOT of clientside standards, including HTML, CSS, JS, HTTP etc.
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dwd1 Anyway, bedtime for old men like me - but I'll go look to see if I could show up to indiewebsummit - it would be fun.
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aaronpk dwd1: it'd be awesome if you could make it!
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tantek more on the clients tweaking to operate on servers challenge: https://annevankesteren.nl/2016/05/client-server
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tantek dwd1 indeed! lots of folks who would add more support (pressure? ;) ) to getting up and running and using your own site instead of (or in addition to) Medium etc.
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tantek KevinMarks: I'm REALLY tempted to edit http://wiki.activitystrea.ms home page but very afraid of the rabbithole that is
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tantek (yes I have edit privs when logged in)
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KevinMarks yeah
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KevinMarks could add a link to SocialWG at the top
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tantek right, and just note the rest for "historical purposes" or something
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KevinMarks you are the 2nd last person to edit it, in 2010
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tantek sigh
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aaronpk sorry for the nickspam lol
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willnorris !tell kylewm any chance to add JSONP support to http://mf2.kylewm.com/ ? (similar to http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwillnorris.com%2F&callback=foo&dateformat=auto and https://willnorris.com/go/microformats/live?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwillnorris.com%2F&callback=foo)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk willnorris: oh yeah i'll add jsonp support, no problem
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KevinMarks wow, over 1000 domains have logged into the wiki
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willnorris aaronpk: thanks!
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KevinMarks and several 100 have edited
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KevinMarks http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&dir=prev&offset=Rhydd.org+~daf&limit=500&editsOnly=1
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aaronpk cool
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____________ much better
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Loqi ____________: petermolnar left you a message on 2/18 at 3:18am: I will, though I ended up using the WordPress Keyring plugin in the end as framework
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aaronpk haha what
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aaronpk Loqi you're weird
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Loqi grins profusely
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@eay Yay, my @IndieWebCamp shirt arrived today. https://www.instagram.com/p/BF2UKIFnS1E/ (twitter.com/_/status/735614308307046400)
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GWG aaronpk, anything you need for Summit? Extra microphones?
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aaronpk hmm, i have it covered to do the main room
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aaronpk but if we wanted to be able to do remote participation in another room then I'll need another camera and mic
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KevinMarks what is newsletter?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "newsletter" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/10M7
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tantek what is this week?
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Loqi This Week in the IndieWeb is a weekly digest of activities of the IndieWebCamp community https://indiewebcamp.com/this-week
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KevinMarks newsletter is /this-week
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loqi.me created /newsletter (+22) "prompted by KevinMarks https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464219395337 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG aaronpk, I will bring some stuff
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aaronpk GWG: cool, I'll assume you'll cover one of the breakout rooms then
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tantek hey can we have background music and an animated loop while people shuffle in?
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aaronpk hah sure
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GWG I have a bunch of boundary microphones
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KevinMarks i sent the background music loop earlier
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tantek once again I am lacking a canonical URL to use for a venue
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tantek really dislikes sharing yelp urls
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aaronpk anyone want to make a CSS animation we can use in a full-screen browser?
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aaronpk i'm imagining something along the lines of http://donutjs.club/
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[kylewm] willnorris: sure! what are you wanting to use it (JSONP) for, out of curiosity?
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Loqi [kylewm]: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 34 minutes ago: could you post an indie event and POSSE FB copy for next HWC SF? https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc#San_Francisco Thanks! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464207288069
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Loqi [kylewm]: willnorris left you a message 29 minutes ago: any chance to add JSONP support to http://mf2.kylewm.com/ ? (similar to http://glennjones.net/tools/microformats/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwillnorris.com%2F&callback=foo&dateformat=auto and https://willnorris.com/go/microformats/live?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwillnorris.com%2F&callback=foo) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464218385472
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willnorris kylewm: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2016-05-25/line/1464210219127
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Loqi [willnorris] aaronpk: what would you think of adding JSONP support to pin13.net/mf2/? I'm hoping to build a litlte service at the summit next week that calls all the different live microformat parsers and compares their results side by side....
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aaronpk is there a standard name for the query string variable to use with jsonp?
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willnorris aaronpk: callback
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willnorris sometimes "jsonp", but "callback" seems to be much more common
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aaronpk and you're supposed to return text/javascript content type with that right?
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aaronpk how's this? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2016-05-25%2Fline%2F1464220349287&callback=test
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aaronpk maybe i should not pretty-print the json
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aaronpk updated
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willnorris aaronpk: looks great!