#indiewebcamp 2015-10-27

2015-10-27 UTC
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KartikPrabhu
more like "I have the sudden desire to run for office"
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GWG
Evening
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unicyclic.com mal
edited /indie-config (+504) "/* Status Option */"
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tantek.com
edited /SWAT0 (+100) "video"
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tantek.com
edited /post-type-discovery (-58) "/* Next steps */ add next steps working with w3c copy, and note some next steps were completed!"
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@kevinmarks
I forgot to link to my notes from Homebrew Website Club last week: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-10-21.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/658921389982789632)
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@diddleapp
RT @kevinmarks: I forgot to link to my notes from Homebrew Website Club last week: http://www.kevinmarks.com/hwc2015-10-21.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/658922955884396544)
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kevinmarks
voxpelli++
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Loqi
voxpelli has 53 karma
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kevinmarks
that was for dynamic updating of webmentions on my static site
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petermolnar
good morning
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petermolnar
GWG: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34455 - this is the filters ticket I've added
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petermolnar
!tell GWG https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34455 - this is the filters ticket I've added for Press This
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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petermolnar
hi all; I've encountered a pretty problematic situation of automatically deciding post type ( format ):
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petermolnar
I have my own photos, identified by either the meta entries of the camera model OR by the meta copyright line
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petermolnar
now, two things happened
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petermolnar
a, posts that had a random image from flickr ( creative commons ) with the same camera model got identified as photo post
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petermolnar
b, posts that used my own image but were actual long articles got identified as photo post
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petermolnar
the latter is relatively easy, set a length limit for the post that describes if it's an article or not
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petermolnar
but this length is tricky
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petermolnar
is any of you using a similar approach? if yes, what kind of limit you set, is it by character, by word, and how long?
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[snarfed]
petermolnar: out of curiosity, what do you use post type for? rendering decisions?
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[shaners]
Petermolnar: I think content length is the wrong bit to check. Sometimes articles are short and sometimes photos have a long content.
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[shaners]
Can you explicitly say at submit time what kind of post it is? Maybe with a hidden tag. Like:
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[shaners]
.article
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@sikkdays
@benwerd We'd love to chat about Known and the indieweb movement on our podcast. I can email you more details, if you're interested.
(twitter.com/_/status/659043105606266880)
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GWG
Someday, someone will invite my to talk about Indieweb, instead of inviting me not to
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Loqi
GWG: petermolnar left you a message 6 hours, 57 minutes ago: https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/34455 - this is the filters ticket I've added for Press This http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-27/line/1445938767367
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voxpelli
oh dear, pronouns is really language specific
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Zegnat
Yep, voxpelli. Pronouns are a mess no matter how you cut it
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voxpelli
Zegnat: and English isn't very representative complexity wise when it comes to such things :)
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Zegnat
Well, English might have the most made-up-pronouns of any other language I know
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gRegorLove
Most of our posts are really language specific, too.
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Zegnat
"Constructed" I guess is the right word, as all words are "made up"
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: but there's usually only one canonical h-card for a profile, which makes it more tricky in that regard
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Zegnat
You could use the lang-attribute and specify multiple pronouns, I guess.
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gRegorLove
I don't see how it's tricky. Three of us have examples set up
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voxpelli
yeah, there's a suggestion for adding lang-attributes to mf2-parsing output: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Parse_language_information
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gRegorLove
Using p-x-pronoun-nominative, p-x-pronoun-oblique, p-x-pronoun-posessive
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: are the three of you of non-english origin? ;)
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gRegorLove
Are you saying the issue is lack of pronouns in some languages?
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: nope, rather the opposite – an increased complexity in many non-english ones and a difficulty in that the grammar might not always map 1:1
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gregorlove.com
edited /preferred_gender_pronoun (+0) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ implementation order"
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voxpelli
have some bad experiences with mapping english grammar to both swedish and german
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aaronpk
english grammar is not usually the best one to start from
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Zegnat
Have you specified on a per-language basis though, gRegorLove? I can see a problem when I have to define my pronouns for both English and Swedish texts, if mf2 parsing does not include language information
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voxpelli
aaronpk: yeah, the "you" + gettext-based translations = interesting experiences :P
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Zegnat
Ie. I wouldn’t want Loki to use Swedish pronouns when addressing me here on the channel
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gRegorLove
I don't provide translations of my posts. Not fluent in other languages. Working on learning Spanish, though.
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voxpelli
Zegnat: until mf2 pars language tags on a property level one has to assume the language is that of the page and rather link to alternate language versions or something through rel-alternate
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aaronpk
voxpelli: lol i can imagine
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Zegnat
voxpelli, yeah, but I don’t see myself ever setting up multiple copies of my hcard page
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kevinmarks
if other languages need more cases, do put an issues line in
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Zegnat
I wonder how people are doing it right now, maybe I should ask around and see if any Swedes who use “hen” use any specific English pronouns and how they inform others of this
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voxpelli
not sure if eg. asian languages like japanese at all map to the indo european language grammars
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kevinmarks
pronouns are complex - there are other weird UK one like 'her majesty' too
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voxpelli
would be simpler of all languages just had a gender-neutral / species-neutral pronoun
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kevinmarks
the differene between calling someone 'it' and 'they' is pretty significant in English, despite both being gender neutral
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Zegnat
voxpelli, knowing our label culture, I bet you people wouldn’t be pleased with a single gender-neutral pronoun. It will just be used a lot in case X, and people who feel more like case Y will come up with their own
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voxpelli
kevinmarks: aaronpk: more to original point – what can we do to move along the mf2 lang-attribute parsing?
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Zegnat
voxpelli, do you have a usecase yet? Will you put separate Swedish and English pronouns on your hcard?
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kevinmarks
publish examples, encourage parsers to pay attention
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voxpelli
Zegnat: I will skip pronouns for now, but there are other examples at http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Parse_language_information
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voxpelli
my primary use case right now is the reverse of parsing – to publish content with explicit language over Micropub
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voxpelli
and Micropub uses the parsed JSON
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aaronpk
ah cool
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kevinmarks
that makes sense - hard to publish examples if you can't pass them through
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aaronpk
voxpelli: out of curiousity, what exactly is the workflow/use case you're targeting?
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aaronpk
i suspect this is a similar problem to how I want to publish content in various feeds, not having everything in my main home page feed
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voxpelli
aaronpk: original use case was to find a standardized way of defining whether an article was in swedish or in english
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aaronpk
you mentioned wanting to specify that at publish time
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voxpelli
and I also would prefer it if indie-readers could filter out my Swedish content easily for all of the non-swedish speakers out there
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aaronpk
and you want to avoid publishing a separate english/swedish feed?
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voxpelli
I currently do publish an english only RSS-feed, but not an english-only h-feed
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voxpelli
since all swedish readers will want the english content, the mixed feed makes most sense
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voxpelli
especially as I don't translate any content – it's either in english or in swedisg, never in both
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voxpelli
(would perhaps be kind of nice to publish an English abstract / summary for Swedish articles though)
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Zegnat
sounds like what I am currently building, as I will be intertwining posts in 3 languages. But I am just going to put lang-attributes on the article-elements and call it a day
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kevinmarks
voxpelli: that was Stephanie's solution, and I think it works well
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@closetgeekshow
@singpolyma I just signed up for Known and I totally forgot about IndieWebCamp
(twitter.com/_/status/659070524614557696)
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@closetgeekshow
@singpolyma i guess i need to know about GNU Social and dive back into the IndieWeb scene again
(twitter.com/_/status/659077587935752193)
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@closetgeekshow
Lol those #indiewebcamp people are some friendly folks /s https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-03-27/line/1395934641000 was looking for IndieWebCamp stuff and found this
(twitter.com/_/status/659078313915187200)
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petermolnar
re snarfed: I use the post type for rendering, yes, eg. adding EXIF at the end of the post of the featured image or not
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gRegorLove
I don't really disagree with that original comment, though: https://twitter.com/closetgeekshow/status/449207285466669056
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@closetgeekshow
I gotta say I'm not down with this "IndieWeb" moniker, like it's some new trend or invention it's just the old-style web's resurgence
(twitter.com/_/status/449207285466669056)
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petermolnar
re [shaners] I could easily do it with tags, but I'm looking for a way to do it with this kind of metadata :)
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gRegorLove
I'm not anti the moniker, but, ::shrug::
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aaronpk
how do you mean? there's a lot more going on here than old web resurgence
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aaronpk
for example, barnaby's next comment pointing out that the old web never had cross-site commenting
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gRegorLove
The core is just "own your own site"
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aaronpk
you want old-style web resurgence, go here http://websiteconf.neocities.org/
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gRegorLove
the old old web never had local comments either :)
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funwhilelost
Guestbooks?
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aaronpk
coincidentally at the same time as indiewebcamp MIT
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petermolnar
guestbooks were public mails basically, site-wide stuff, never per topic or per post
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aaronpk
i think we're doing a little more than bringing back the old web
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petermolnar
there were some pages using a forum topic as comments for a post, with per post topics
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KartikPrabhu
where is that smbc about arguing semantics again?
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gRegorLove
hah, web 1.0 conference. nice
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funwhilelost
I think it's a lot more. The "scratch your own itch" idea is something that I immediately get: it's about participating.
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voxpelli
depends on what one calls the old web, the IndieWeb is kind of bringing the social media of post-web 2.0 back to the blog-roots of the early web-2.0 era
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aaronpk
i'm sorry, i just don't have a lot of sympathy for criticism that is not based in reality
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davidpeach
ello ello ello
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voxpelli
petermolnar: regarding your post types – sure that you will always have enough data to automatically decide? sounds like it would be simpler to just define type explicitly
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davidpeach
im playing around with my post types at the moment
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davidpeach
am explicitly selecting type before posting atm
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davidpeach
but am gonna change to just date slug and just display what fields are present for each post
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davidpeach
after reading rhiaro / rhiaro_ 's post about post types
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KartikPrabhu
explicit post types get useless real fast specially if you want to put many kinds of content together
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singpolyma
aaronpk: depends how old. blogs+linkback is reasonably old
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petermolnar
voxpelli that is the question I'm trying to solve; indeed definind a type is easy, however, combining situations of if-elseif-else where the checks include exif of featured images, certain patterns in content ( like fenced code blocks ) are enough for ~90%; the rest is where I'm realizing I need at least one type of taxonomy ( meta ) that helps
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aaronpk
singpolyma: there's a pretty big difference between old trakback/pingback and what we're doing now though
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singpolyma
aaronpk: uhhh... there is?
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gRegorLove
The term "IndieWeb" makes sense to me as part of the event, IndieWebCamp, but I don't care for it a lot on its own. I'm unlikely to tell someone "I'm part of the IndieWeb" for example. I'm probably in the minority though. Not suggesting it be changed or not used or anything.
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aaronpk
on the user interface side there sure is
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singpolyma
aaronpk: oh, with known and such you mean? sure
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: some kind of categorization that can help in determining post types, while not directly explicit, can be helpful though
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KartikPrabhu
or even other sides
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aaronpk
there's much more to all of this than protocols
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: maybe but not sure of that
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: I only distinguish between articles = I write HTML and note = I write plain text
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petermolnar
singpolyma difference as in additions; the roots are the same
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: such categorization can communicate intent that can't in itself by derived from the content alone I'm thinking :)
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: oh, that sound smuch more fragile to me than explicitly marking an article as an article
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KartikPrabhu
has worked well for me so far
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: but now you can't put HTML in your notes :P
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aaronpk
my difference between note and articles is whether one has a name
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petermolnar
KartikPrabhu all my posts are either Markdown or empty - the latter has a url and a webmention type as meta, but that doesn't help telling a note, a photo or an article apart
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KartikPrabhu
voxpelli: the point is if I have to out HTML then I write an article not a note
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voxpelli
I think mine is the same, no title -> note
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aaronpk
i also don't consider html markup to be a "note"
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KartikPrabhu
autolinking stuff apart
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aaronpk
a note that i write needs to render in full fidelity when someone else takes the plaintext version of it
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: what if you want to add some metadata to the links then? ;)
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KartikPrabhu
then I write article
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KartikPrabhu
or put it in autolink
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gRegorLove
My notes have HTML, though mostly because I don't do autolinking yet.
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voxpelli
gRegorLove: I btw like the IndieWeb term as too much of discussions in tech today revolves around enterprise needs or startup needs, and the web should be for everyone
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voxpelli
KartikPrabhu: how do you add metadata to your autolink? :P
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voxpelli
like a rel-foo?
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KartikPrabhu
do I need to?
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KartikPrabhu
haven't found any case where I want to do that unless it is derived fro the URl
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gRegorLove
What rels would you add on links in a note?
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voxpelli
depends on whether you want to starts experimenting with new kinds of tagging or such in your notes I'm thinking, without extending your autolinking upfront to handle them
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aaronpk
that kind of meta data i put *outside* the note
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KartikPrabhu
like u-reply-to ^
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voxpelli
aaronpk: good point
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KartikPrabhu
the note content is always plaintext with possible autolinking
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KartikPrabhu
e.g. one can easily autolink @personname
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KartikPrabhu
an include h-card markup
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KartikPrabhu
similarly autolink #thistag with rel-tag or u-tag
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gRegorLove
Used Bridgy Publish to post a photo to Twitter for the first time. Smooth as butter.
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gRegorLove
bridgy++
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Loqi
bridgy has 29 karma
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KartikPrabhu
actually for some reason Twitter's interface does not allow me to upload photos on FF so I have used bridgy for it ;)
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[shaners]
Re: no "name" -> note, in Homesteading Articles only require `content`, but allow `title` and `subtitle` (combined to make `p-name`). Whereas Notes also only require `content` and disallow `title` and `subtitle` (in this case, `name` == `content`).
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davidpeach
i love the idea of just posting content - no matter what 'type' it is. After few months of explicitly choosing which post type before writing
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Zegnat
aaronpk: quick (2 part) question, is the Webmention logo your work and is it CC0 licensed?
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Zegnat
👍
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kevinmarks
did you see the spooky indieweb logo?
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[shaners]
Nope. Got a URL?
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[shaners]
Grool. Did @heathersabrina explicitly release that as public domain?
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funwhilelost
Does anyone else feel like this doesn't explain anything about GNU Social? https://gnu.io/social/about/
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aaronpk
wow yeah. the only thing that says what it does is "for joining groups and posting messages across servers"
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kevinmarks
that doesn't really explain anything other than the history fo the codebase
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funwhilelost
I'm actually a little confused about how it works. Does it federate the status updates across all GNU Social installs?
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singpolyma
funwhilelost: what do you mean by "across all" ?
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singpolyma
anyone on any instance can follow/reply to anyone on any other instance
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kevinmarks
what is gnusocial?
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Loqi
GNU social is an free software project that "will be a decentralized social network that you can install on your own server" https://indiewebcamp.com/gnusocial
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kevinmarks
more info there maybe
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funwhilelost
Interesting. So if you were to POSSE to GNU Social you'd post an ostatus update to a hub of your choice?
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singpolyma
funwhilelost: could do. POSSE to GNU Social shouldn't be necessary, though. if you have a PuSH feed they can follow you directly
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singpolyma
and I'm adding webmention as we speak
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kevinmarks
singpolyma: can you update that wiki page to show how?
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funwhilelost
Good point.
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voxpelli
OStatus and the IndieWeb isn't that unlike each other
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voxpelli
eg. Bridgy I believe is built on top of much OStatus tech
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kylewm
singpolyma: kevinmarks: the wiki page has some info about subscribing to a non-gnusocial PuSH atom feed under Syndication; it would be great if you could expand it if you know more!
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kylewm
mmm, Bridgy is only related to OStatus in that it uses ActivityStreams
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voxpelli
singpolyma: btw, if you're interested, http://flattr.com/ has a full read-version of OStatus built into it
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voxpelli
kylewm: well, OStatus is mainly ActivityStreams, PuSH, Salmon, Webfinger – so that's about 25% of all the tech :)
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singpolyma.net
edited /GNU_social (-28) "Update instructions on following a feed with GNU Social"
(view diff)
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singpolyma
the paragraph "As so very often with GNU projects it is really difficult to get information about it fast, you have to search and find it all over the internet" seems unhelpfully pejoritive and mean, but I've left it for now since it wasn't part of my edit
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kylewm
singpolyma: I'm +1 on removing that section
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kylewm
paragraph*
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funwhilelost
Yeah, after reading the GNU social entry I found this helpful, too: "the only reason to POSSE to a service is if a) you have friends on that service (otherwise you're just spamming), and b) that service only allows people to subscribe to local-to-the-service accounts."
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voxpelli
singpolyma: another IndieWeb tech that would be interesting in regards to the GNU Social would be WebActions / Indie-Config
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voxpelli
would make the "click on + Remote" a bit simpler as one could follow someone by clicking follow on their profile
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singpolyma
voxpelli: GNU Social actually has something in that space also, so bringing the two communities in line on that would be nice, yeah
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kylewm
the conversation linked to below the "difficult to get information about" criticism is actually interesting.
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voxpelli
singpolyma: I have a vague memory that StatusNet experimented with registerProtocolHandler – Indie-Config is an extension of that basically
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singpolyma
voxpelli: if someone with more knowledge of WebActions could file a feature request at https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social/issues it would help a lot :)
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kylewm.com
edited /GNU_social (-38) "/* Difficult to get information about */ prune pejorative paragraph"
(view diff)
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tantek
yes that's a better rewording kylewm
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tantek
waves from Sapporo
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tantek
voxpelli, kylewm saying that anything is similar "because ActivityStreams" is a bit misleading since there are so many different explicit non-interoperaperable versions of ActivityStreams - such a generic statement cannot be used to meaningfully express equivalence/support/interop
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tantek
e.g. OStatus was *which* version of AS? AS1/Atom? AS1/JSON? etc.
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tantek
and which version(s) does Bridgy tech currently support?
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snarfed
somewhere between 1 and 2
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kylewm
Bridgy is AS1/JSON, with little bits of AS2 sprinkled in
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tantek
if you know of any code that claims "OStatus" support that consumes that successfully - let me know!
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snarfed
are there more meaningful explicit AS versions than 1 and 2?
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snarfed
honest question
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tantek
snarfed: AS1/Atom - it's still in my updates.atom
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tantek
not *more*, but still meaningful
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snarfed
oh, serialization format. i guess i was thinking of that separately
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snarfed
but eh sure i guess
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tantek
snarfed: can't think of it separately if you're talking about equivalences / interop
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snarfed
demurs
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kylewm
what state is AS2 in these days?
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tantek
which was the original point that was being made
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kylewm
i haven't been keeping up with social wg
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tantek
kylewm: AS2 is slowly iterating, bits are being simplified here and there
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tantek
there are various open issues, though most of them do not impact real world implementations
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tantek
is attempting to give at least a somewhat optimistic outlook on AS2
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voxpelli
considering that Granary references eg. Cliqset as providing the same service before it I thought the roots within the OStatus world was evident
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voxpelli
and OStatus always meant AS1 Atom
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voxpelli
OStatus never went JSON as far as I know
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tantek
voxpelli: that's probably worth clarifying on the /OStatus page (about OStatus being AS1/Atom only)
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tantek
hah that's also funny because that means my personal site supports two OStatus layers (AS1/Atom, PuSH ;) )
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tantek
perhaps I need to add to /OStatus#IndieWeb_Examples :)
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@shanley
i'm also so disgusted that fucking PROGRAMMERS in SV are so fucking inept that they can't even build their own blogging site but details
(twitter.com/_/status/656901127368126464)
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voxpelli
one problem with OStatus: The spec of it is kind of gone
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tantek
Wikipedia?
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voxpelli
and it kind of was like the IndieWeb in that it only advocated for using certain other technologies together, so it in itself never was a very concrete thing
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tantek
voxpelli: It was pitched fairly concretely as "the OStatus stack"
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tantek
I believe we can look up presentations from Evan Prodromou at OSBridge maybe 2011?
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tantek
or maybe 2010?
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aaronpk
at some point in the near future we'll have enough specs to make "the indie stack"
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tantek
whereas IndieWeb is certainly not (yet?) a "stack" per se, but I'd say first and foremost the /principles and community
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tantek
aaronpk: the problem with declaring an "indie stack" is that stacks tend to ossify, rather than stay modular / replaceable
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tantek
e.g. in 2011 we used pingback for distributed comments with h-entry
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voxpelli
by calling OStatus a "stack" it gained certain leverage, so a pretty smart move
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tantek
but now pingback is backcompat at best, and we've replaced it with webmention
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tantek
voxpelli: it's not clear that "leverage" ammounted to much beyond marketing
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tantek
at the time it *sounded* like it did, but didn't really get that far in terms of deployed implementations (plural)
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tantek
also a stack feels too completist
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voxpelli
compared to the predecessor "OpenMicroBlogging" it achieved much :)
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kevinmarks
I need ot find my "I hack on the open stack" t-shirt
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tantek
as in, if you feel compelled to implement the whole "stack" or not be "finished" or "complete"
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aaronpk
microformats2 + webmention + salmention + PuSH = OStatus 2? ;)
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tantek
and vice versa, once you complete whatever is "the stack" you feel done so you stop trying
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tantek
no aaronpk the point is that the whole framing of a "stack" is bad
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aaronpk
ooh maybe we can make a layer cake diagram too
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tantek
kevinmarks: already a page on it on the wiki - feel free to add
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tantek
what is marketecture
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Loqi
marchitecture is a term for architecture-like diagrams that contain lots of jargon, buzzwords, or marketing phrases for sales or political reasons yet make little actual sense, especially if you look at the apparent or implied relationships therein https://indiewebcamp.com/marketecture
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tantek
what is marketecture
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Loqi
marchitecture is a term for architecture-like diagrams that contain lots of jargon, buzzwords, or marketing phrases for sales or political reasons yet make little actual sense, especially if you look at the apparent or implied relationships therein https://indiewebcamp.com/marketecture
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tantek
kevinmarks: feel free to add more "open stack" links there
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tantek
layercakediagram--
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Loqi
layercakediagram has -1 karma
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kevinmarks
especially ones where the layers aren't layers
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aaronpk
is feeling snarky today
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tantek
I submit that something like IndieMark, which has levels, and axes is MUCH more useful than a "stack" in terms of 1) motivating people to get started, and feeling good about even just getting started, and 2) always feeling like there is something more they can do to be better.
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tantek
a specific "stack" fails at both of those. it fails 1) because a stack looks like a lot of work to feel like you've done anything.
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kevinmarks
we aren't building a stack, we're building components
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aaronpk
speaking of which, indiewebify.me is ready to have people add things to it!
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tantek
it fails 2) because once you're done with the stack, you lose motivation
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tantek
stackframing--
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Loqi
stackframing has -1 karma
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tantek
is that worth capturing on a wiki page?
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tantek
as in, what is the indieweb stack?
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voxpelli
tantek: and perhaps it fails because it doesn't encourage many implementations
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tantek
and answer with - there is stack. here's why
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tantek
voxpelli: that comes from 1)
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voxpelli
but also from that you're not encouraged to add anything more, so you can never beat the reference implementation
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tantek
voxpelli: good point
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kylewm
hehe stack framing
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kylewm
tantek++ for wordplay
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Loqi
tantek has 253 karma
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[shaners]
Anyone with a Heroku wanna test something out for me? (Or is willing to signup for Heroku [free] during this test)
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@LarryChiang
RT @nobantu: Join us 4 ALLthings #InternetIdentity @ #IIW #unConference: #VRM #CRM #indieweb #blockchain #OAuth #bitcoin #privacy https://t…
(twitter.com/_/status/659143144051634176)
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davidpeach
restructuring my site database is proving a longer task than first thought
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[shaners]
It always does.
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kylewm
@shaners I has a heroku, what do you need?
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[shaners]
kylewm: go to here and click deploy. Lemme know how it goes.
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[shaners]
Thanks!
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kylewm
mm, "There was an issuse building your app": https://gist.github.com/kylewm/503f04e88a594d13b5a9
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[shaners]
I was in mid `git push`. Please try again?
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kylewm
seems to have worked!
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[shaners]
Weee. Did it redirect you to `/signup` after you clicked the `view site` (or whatever) button at the bottom of the dashboard?
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kylewm
I think maybe I am missing some css
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[shaners]
Nope! There is no CSS yet. :smile:
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[shaners]
That’s it for now.
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kylewm
all good then!
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[shaners]
Though, if you go to `/settings`, you can add any free form CSS you want to.
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[shaners]
Thanks, kylewm!
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[shaners]
I’ve got a few more issues to sort out before I can flip veganstraightedge.com over to the new Homesteading proper instead of my duct tape and popsicle sticks home grown thing.
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