#indiewebcamp 2015-10-16

2015-10-16 UTC
uranther, kronda, arlen, j12t, mdik, rabble_, almereyda, zachdonovan_, Vendan, scor, wolftune, brucewang, fahrstuhl, acegiak, rhiaro, renoirb, GWG, hidgw, raucao, braidn, Jay-, JasonO-, zachdonovan, daf, strangehill, catsup, FergusL, M-kegan, nitot, finchd-also, joskar, Phyks, moredhel, bol, Garbee, tallpaul, tommorris, jden, bergie, benward, Phae, KitB, anm, Unifex, ventilateur, neil1, bear, Tristitia, tbrb, halorgium, yakker, iboxifoo, _6a68, JonathanNeal, MMN-o, shalkydri, mattronix, danlyke, modem, danfowler, rascul, dietrich, camerongray, hmans, saurik, zz_tridnguyen, blueyed, voxpelli, sivoais, sandro, cjk101010, martinBrown, aaronpk, micro_, smcgregor, Jeena, KartikPrabhu, tantek, kerozene, kylewm, ehlovader, j4y_funabashi, lordabdul, michel_v, brianloveswords, paulproteus, ben_thatmustbeme, snarfed, 14WABFSH1, oddvar, bret, jacus, Kongaloosh_, gRegorLove, jonnybarnes, CaptainCalliope, Leeky, kegan, wagle, Guerillero|BNC, ramsey, minsky, rektide, R2ZER0, strugee, marjolein, MrClaw, M-Kodo, Zegnat, reidab, MylesBraithwaite, sensiblemn, ben_thatmust and sivoais_ joined the channel
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Loqi [bridgy] Greg McVerry replied '@ChrisAldrich If they don't I'll testify how much fun my #edu106 students are having. Feel empowered by privacy and sharing choices' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/654814583899623428)
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ben_thatmustbeme okay, i need a post that has marked up p-comments
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ben_thatmustbeme going to try to write my nested comments code
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[ben_thatmustbem hmm, netsplit
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ben_thatmustbeme pokes freenode to see if it is done being weird
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: what do you mean by markedup p-comments?
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ben_thatmustbeme nevermind, i have am just using one of my own
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ben_thatmustbeme wrapping each comment in a *-comment mf2 tag is fairly new
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tantek yes - new as of IndieWebCamp /2015
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, i might have them marked up wrong, i''m getting a blank coment on a fetched comment
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GWG Good evening, all
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: try https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/test-note-totally-te
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@ChrisAldrich #socmeducla #bleedingedgetools #indieweb https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/654814583899623428 (twitter.com/_/status/654826859125805056)
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ben_thatmustbeme i think i found the issue
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like someone was trying to add recursive comment parsing to php-comments
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ben_thatmustbeme but the comments on the parsed post are an h-cite, not h-entry, so they return blank
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, successful parse!
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: Mazel tov?
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ben_thatmustbeme todah
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ben_thatmustbeme or dank
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ben_thatmustbeme googled it
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ben_thatmustbeme :P
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ben_thatmustbeme ever since i started using a code sniffer i now have this urge to go through and make rulesets for every project i come across
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GWG I was taught todah.
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ben_thatmustbeme oh, yay
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Loqi :D
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GWG I have the urge since I discovered it to make all my plugins comply with WordPress standards. There's a ruleset for it
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GWG I even made the Micropub plugin compliant, but I don't think snarfed will accept the Pull Request unless it comes with unit tests.
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@ChrisAldrich @jgmac1106 You can + #indieweb to http://jgregorymcverry.com with plugin/instructions from http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress & https://wordpress.org/plugins/indieweb/ (twitter.com/_/status/654831925228515328)
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Loqi [mention] http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/jgmac1106-you-can-indieweb-to-jgregorymcverrycom-with-plugininstructions-from-wordpress commented '@jgmac1106 You can + #indieweb to jgregorymcverry.com with plugin/instructions from http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress & https://wordpres...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress
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@jgmac1106 @ChrisAldrich I already use the #indieweb plugins on http://jgregorymcverry.com but not yet on http://networkedlearningcollaborative.com (twitter.com/_/status/654832523734839296)
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Loqi [bridgy] Greg McVerry replied '@ChrisAldrich I already use the #indieweb plugins on jgregorymcverry.com but not yet on networkedlearningcollaborative.com' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress (https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/654832523734839296)
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[number5] hey guys, http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/ seems broken right now, give me “can not read property ‘href’ of null” error, I’m using Chrome for Mac 46.0.2490.71
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KartikPrabhu [number5]: which page are you testing?
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[snarfed] indiewebify.me isn't very well maintained. we should probably wind down recommending it
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[snarfed] or find someone to take it over!
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tantek we used to have multiple people who could update the domain - is that no longer the case?
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tantek what is indiewebify.me?
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Loqi Indiewebify.me is a service that checks how "indie web" your site is and reports back its results https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebify.me
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tantek snarfed ^^^ can you file issues?
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[snarfed] tantek: i have, and pinged then months later
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tantek dang
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[snarfed] I'm sure plenty of people have permissions to update it
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[snarfed] but i don't think anyone actually does
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tantek maybe only two? last I remember both barnabywalters and bnvk did
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tantek is the site out of date compared to the repo?
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[snarfed] probably not
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[snarfed] but no clue
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[snarfed] an actual maintainer seems like first priority to me
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tantek snarfed, remind me again how github is better than a wiki?
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tantek pull-request bottleneck = stop energy
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tantek is there anyway on github to say, let anyone I follow commit changes to this repo?
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tantek without having to "add" maintainers or editors or whatever one-by-one manually to every single repo?
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bear no, but adding collaborators with write permission is very easy
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tantek manualwhitelists--
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Loqi manualwhitelists has -1 karma
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tantek bear - site unmainteance death by a thousand "easy" cuts
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KartikPrabhu i wouldn't want people I follow commiting changes to my code by default
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tantek KartikPrabhu: but we are even more liberal about changes to the wiki!
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KartikPrabhu yes
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tantek the point is, indiewebify.me is not "your code" or any of ours - we should be treating it as a shared resource like the wiki
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KartikPrabhu code != wiki
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tantek and that's why the code is unmaintained - because people treat them differently
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tantek neither snarfed, nor me, nor you can edit nor update indiewebify.me right now
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tantek qed
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tantek code should be community by default, and only if you're particularly paranoid should you then have to make your own you-only-controlled fork of that repo
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bear github is a code wiki but with a more structured permissions model
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tantek you mean, a more manual buttons to push to do anything permissions model
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bear no, it could be automated but the permission is about who can submit changes because code is, on purpose, different than writing/docs
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tantek whereas everytime we create a new page on the wiki - we have to do ZERO permissions maintenance work to allow people to edit it
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tantek I think the purpose is more often a mistake than not
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tantek it's a bad assumption that results in neglect
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bear i'm sure some folks have had to be banned for vandelism
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bear (of the wiki)
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tantek actually no one yet
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tantek vandals have much easier targets
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bear that is probably a byproduct of the auth
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bear which, is how I would solve this problem
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KartikPrabhu not a lot of people have an incentive to vandalise the indiewebcamp wiki. Wikipedia gets a lot of that and has to have mods and such
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tantek don't care - point stands. our wiki is ZERO Permissions maintenence
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bear if you have auth on the wiki and have a github id then have the bot add them as a collaborator
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tantek compared to any of the githubs
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tantek KartikPrabhu: not a lot of people have incentive to vandalize indiewebify.me
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KartikPrabhu sure. but that can not be extended to github in general
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bear what is the repo and how do I get access so I can help solve this issue
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "repo and how do I get access so I can help solve this issue" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/s/104w
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tantek it can be extended to any community group on github, of which there are many
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tantek bear check what is indiewebify.me
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Loqi Indiewebify.me is a service that checks how "indie web" your site is and reports back its results https://indiewebcamp.com/indiewebify.me
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bear so it looks like some of the regulars have committed to it...
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tantek manually maintaining permissions and all that is for enterprise bureaucracy nonsense
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tantek not for agile volunteer-based open-source etc. communities
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bear !tell aaronpk can you get me access to https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek point being I'd rather have someone commit a mistake and then someone else be able to undo it, than that someone not be able to commit the mistake in the first place
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tantek that's why wikis work
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tantek (over time, maintenance etc.)
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bear yes, that I agree with - I recently started to do that with some of my older open source libs
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tantek whereas open source repos end up dying
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bear and found that I haven't had to roll back many changes - and a few of them I just explained why and they did the change
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tantek because even if you stumble upon one, you have to ask for permissions (social barrier), or submit a pull request (psychological barrier of what if my work is rejected), or wait (psychological impatience barrier) etc.
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tantek it's a crap model
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bear I wouldn't say that it's completely crap - but in some cases it is a higher barrier for community than is required
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tantek in *most* cases
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tantek it's a very bad default
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tantek it's fine for top down hierarchical orgs / enterprise
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bear which is where it got all of it's defaults - yep
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[snarfed] I'll avoid the wider debate... but in this case, barnabywalters and bnvk have at least been around occasionally, and friendly, so if anyone did actually step up and ask to take it over, or get added to the hosting provider etc, I'm sure they would have
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@cleverdevil Lots of fun having drinks with @benwerd, chatting about @withknown, @dreamhost, #IndieWeb, and the future of the .. https://cleverdevil.io/2015/lots-of-fun-having-drinks-with-benwerd-chatting-about-withknown (twitter.com/_/status/654871237471174656)
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bear wanders over to the pub
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kylewm bear: invited you to the github group, i'm surprised you weren't already in there!
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bear :)
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bear hmm, I suspect this may be a mf2 parser upgrade issue - but I won't know until someone check
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bear i'll file an issue about the error the above person got
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kylewm I've heard of maintainers that give commit access to anybody who submits a good pull request
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bear I now give access to anyone asking or filing issues for some of my libs
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bear !tell [number5] the error you got for the validate-h-card - can you put into this issue what URL you were testing? https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/issues/43
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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[snarfed] bear++
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Loqi bear has 75 karma
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[snarfed] also worth noting: the long pole for letting communities manage apps like this usually isn't github, it's the hosting provider
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bear yea, getting apps deployed is so much harder than it should be (but I also no why it is and that's why i'm doubly frustrated)
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[snarfed] deploy-on-push and gating on continuous builds are both steps in the right direction
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bear nods
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bear k, heading to the pub - my fav bartender tells me she has just tapped a new chocolate porter
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[snarfed] enjoy!
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kylewm hmm,i don't even see an error, just nothing: http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrucewang.net%2F
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KartikPrabhu there is no h-card on that page
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kylewm true
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kylewm this is surprising http://indiewebify.me/validate-h-card/?url=http%3A%2F%2Faaronparecki.com
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mblaney hello
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mblaney speaking of problems, did anyone notice indiewebcamp.com/irc/today isn't updating?
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@benwerd Super-great to meet @cleverdevil and talk @dreamhost, @withknown and the web. Exciting times, and great company. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/654878253379792896)
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gRegorLove Loqi, you awake?
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gRegorLove It's updated for me, mblaney
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mblaney kylewm, I've been working on my h-cards and was just looking at aaronpk
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mblaney (oops) aaronpk's site
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mblaney and that h-card is from a repost
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mblaney gRegorLove what browser?
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gRegorLove Chrome
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gRegorLove And confirmed in Firefox
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kylewm I don't see the live updates here (firefox)
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mblaney hmmm I'm using iceweasel and chromium on debian
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gRegorLove Oh, yeah I guess it's not auto-updating.
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gRegorLove Does only the ?beta flagged version do that though?
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gRegorLove Ping
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Loqi pong
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gRegorLove Nope, neither are auto-updating for me.
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mblaney no I'm pretty sure it was working without beta.
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mblaney the strange thing is it does show me when people join, just not any real messages
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KartikPrabhu testing testing
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KartikPrabhu yeah no updates
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kylewm it looked like it didn't make the websocket connection at all
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kylewm ohhh aaronpk changed to server sent events!
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gRegorLove I'm working on figuring out updating syndication links after async Bridgy Publish. Tricky.
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mblaney kylewm I've been trying to debug pushstream.js, and I have a feeling it's actually working fine.
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mblaney at a guess I would say the messages aren't being pushed from the server.
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[aaronpk] Well that's odd, especially since they're still coming to Slack just fine
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Loqi [aaronpk]: bear left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: can you get me access to https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-15/line/1444968097012
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kylewm hmm, something funny going on
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kylewm ok maybe I am back in the world of the living. my messages weren't showing up in the log at all for a bit
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[aaronpk] I wonder if it is somehow related to the netsplit earlier
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mblaney aaronpk I've noticed it for a few days
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[kylewm] the SSE stream maybe only has join/parts
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[kylewm] confirming that
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[aaronpk] Days??
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mblaney yeah, sorry :(
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mblaney this is as close as I've found to an error:
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mblaney The connection to https://indiewebcamp.com/irc-streaming/sub?_=1444970906560&tag=&time=&eventid=&id=indiewebcamp was interrupted while the page was loading.
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[aaronpk] oh I bet it’s an SSL thing
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[aaronpk] there let’s see if that fixes it
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[aaronpk] bam
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[aaronpk] the damn server Loqi is on is so old it can’t talk to indiewebcamp.com SSL anymore
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KartikPrabhu testing
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KartikPrabhu yup works now
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[aaronpk] that was dumb. sorry.
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mblaney aaronpk++ it's smart that you got it working though! :-)
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Loqi aaronpk has 978 karma
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[aaronpk] Loqi is such a mess lol
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[aaronpk] Like a Rube Goldberg machine
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KartikPrabhu Loqi give back my mess
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@Delverie RT @kevinmarks: how twitter's moments pull the image from your tweets and buries the link http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/smart-pipes-and-dumb-content/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/654932478738714624)
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j4y_funabashi_ morning all
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KartikPrabhu hi j4y_funabashi
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j4y_funabashi_ I am at the point where I need to add pagination to my homepage feed
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j4y_funabashi_ and wondering if there is a way to mark that up so json parser will see the link as navigation to the next page of entries?
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KartikPrabhu <shrug> don't use JSON at all
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KartikPrabhu there is rel-prev and rel-next in microformats
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j4y_funabashi_ yeah sorry by json parser I mean a microformats parser (which gives you a json version of the page)
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KartikPrabhu yeah rel-prev and rel-next are those things. I don't know any feed reader that uses them though
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j4y_funabashi_ so if I go to http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fj4y.co it shows a feed with children (the entries) as json
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j4y_funabashi_ ahh ok cheers KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu np j4y_funabashi_
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j4y_funabashi_ do you use rel-next/prev?
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KartikPrabhu yes on my feed pages
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KartikPrabhu errr oops I seemed to have removed them! But I should
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j4y_funabashi_ cool, does the pin13 parser pick those up?
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KartikPrabhu it should
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KartikPrabhu they'll show up in a global rel list
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j4y_funabashi_ yeah i guess it would show up in rels.next?
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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KartikPrabhu oh I remember why I removed them. I don't know if prev = older or prev = previous in reverse chonological order
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j4y_funabashi_ http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-prev http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-next
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KartikPrabhu yes. but it doesn't say which order
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j4y_funabashi_ yeah I was just wondering about it because alot of the apis I have used include nav links
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KartikPrabhu IMO the rel-prev/next spec is ambiguous
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KartikPrabhu not a POV shared by mnay
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j4y_funabashi_ Yeah I agree these pages should be expanded a bit, I guess the order is up to us as publishers?
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KartikPrabhu it seems so
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KartikPrabhu which will make it harder for any readers parsing it
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KartikPrabhu again, I'm the minority report on this. Most people are fine with the existing rel-next spec
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j4y_funabashi_ although "next document in a linear sequence of documents" seems clear enough to me
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KartikPrabhu in fact tomorrow, I'm going to make all post in chronological order
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KartikPrabhu s/post/posts on my site
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: in fact tomorrow, I'm going to make all posts on my site in chronological order
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j4y_funabashi_ how do you order currently?
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KartikPrabhu reverse-chronological
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KartikPrabhu see https://kartikprabhu.com
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KartikPrabhu in fact the first article there is exactly on this point
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j4y_funabashi_ haha yeah I am just reading it :)
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j4y_funabashi_ looks like I asked at the right time
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KartikPrabhu it is a relatively old post in internet time
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KartikPrabhu i should update it. I don't think it is getting the point across
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Loqi yea
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KartikPrabhu well thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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j4y_funabashi_ :)
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KartikPrabhu again, this is confusing to me, but others seem to get along fine
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@francesbell Thanks to @catherinecronin @katemfd @donnalanclos @daveowhite @doggyb @indiewebcamp #dlrn15 #icdeunisa https://twitter.com/francesbell/status/654965941835468800 (twitter.com/_/status/654966840003837952)
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[kevinmarks] Is the problem with indiewebify.me not so much a code access or as a deployment one
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@DonnaLanclos @francesbell oh, you are welcome. @catherinecronin @KateMfD @daveowhite @doggyb @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/654980627457048576)
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Loqi [bridgy] Greg McVerry replied '@ChrisAldrich Thanks for tips. Was talking about the app environment/versus mobile web/versus html5 app debates. Big fan of TWIG and TWIT' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wordpress (https://twitter.com/jgmac1106/status/654985090305499137)
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petermolnar.eu edited /Instagram (+725) "adding PESOS section w/ WordPress examples and DMCA section with example" (view diff)
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petermolnar nice little instagram read: http://justhugo.com/2015/10/16/freedom/
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petermolnar while FB content may not be that important to the world, Instagram is, so from hereon I will try to spread the PESOS word
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@petermolnar @hugobaeta @instagram sorry to hear that; for the future though, in order to #ownyourdata https://indiewebcamp.com/Instagram #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/654998145638756352)
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petermolnar.eu edited /why (+53) "/* Censorship */" (view diff)
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GWG Good morning
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petermolnar good morning
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petermolnar I've recently realized I can drop 2/3rd of my custom icons font file, since unicode covers a significant amount of them now
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voxpelli Good morning
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GWG I am thinking of accomplishing something this weekend.
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GWG Maybe I will finish adding Microformats parsing to Post Kinds. I have been putting that off.
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cweiske did the unicode standard change such a big deal in the last months?
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GWG petermolnar, what got added?
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petermolnar I don't think it did, but I never really checked the whole thing
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petermolnar one could say I was a bit too lazy to do so
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petermolnar this was useful though: http://unicode-table.com/en/
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cweiske I generally use gucharmap on my pc
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cweiske for finding unicode characters
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@catherinecronin @francesbell this is wonderful, Frances, and a fine start to #dlrn15. thank you :) @DonnaLanclos @KateMfD @daveowhite @doggyb @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/655016000576860160)
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@catherinecronin RT @francesbell: Thanks to @catherinecronin @katemfd @donnalanclos @daveowhite @doggyb @indiewebcamp #dlrn15 #icdeunisa https://t.co/1XPcwS… (twitter.com/_/status/655016019472179200)
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@BizGiftsco @IndieWebCampUK Did you know? Business Gifts are 100% Tax deductible & great for #Business http://www.business-gifts.co/get-a-free-consultation/ https://twitter.com/BizGiftsco/status/645979409258840064/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/655027658179284992)
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petermolnar wow, we're getting direct spam on twitter
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@finnern RT @kevinmarks: how twitter's moments pull the image from your tweets and buries the link http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/smart-pipes-and-dumb-content/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/655029106564726784)
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@fredverheul RT @kevinmarks: how twitter's moments pull the image from your tweets and buries the link http://techcrunch.com/2015/10/15/smart-pipes-and-dumb-content/ #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/655031536484548608)
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aaronpk good morning #indiewebcamp
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aaronpk I'd be willing to set up automatic deploys for indiewebify.me if we moved it to my hosting account
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aaronpk it'd be nice to have that be more up to date, and have more people be able to contribute to it
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bear kevinmarks - for this specific case it may be a code even if only in the fact that it didn't handle a parsing error properly
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bear aaronpk - I can definitely help with that, I will be having freetime over the next week or so
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aaronpk cool. i've done automatic deploy from github hooks a couple different ways
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bear since it's a public repo you can use circleci or travis to do the deploy
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk I wonder if it would run on heroku's free plan
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bear I can't imagine it's a very memory hungry site
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aaronpk looks like on the free tier it must be not running for 6 hours a day
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[snarfed] app engine free tier?
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[snarfed] let's it run 24h/day
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aaronpk hm why isn't app engine one ofthe supported providers on travis-ci?
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[snarfed] they might call it Google cloud?
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aaronpk looks like they're working on it https://github.com/travis-ci/dpl/issues/94
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[snarfed] i also remember a push-to-deploy article on the Google cloud blog or nearby a while back
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aaronpk oh it's there, I just didn't see it
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bear https://circleci.com/docs/deploy-google-app-engine
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@kevinmarks Sounds like @instagram, like @twitter, have an unofficial 3 strikes policy with DMCA notices http://justhugo.com/2015/10/16/freedom/ such a shame #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/655056509403967488)
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aaronpk whoa
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, i think my latest change will actually start storing comments on comments
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ben_thatmustbeme don't have them marked up yet
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ben_thatmustbeme but its a start
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ben_thatmustbeme s/marked up/displaying/
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ben_thatmustbeme now i just need someone who supports salmentions to comment on something of mine, and someone else to comment on that
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snarfed ben_thatmustbeme: if you connect u-url and u-in-reply-to, backfed facebook threaded comments will also work
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snarfed e.g. http://boffosocko.com/2015/07/27/algebraic-number-theory-ucla-extension/#comment-29149
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@kevinmarks @rbonini have a look at http://ownyourgram.com to automate that #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/655061555898281984)
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@rbonini RT @kevinmarks: @rbonini have a look at http://ownyourgram.com to automate that #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/655061791106551808)
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aaronpk hmm thinking I should promote silo.pub on ownyourgram as a way to connect to those
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aaronpk interesting limitation of JSON post requests, there isn't a good way to also include a file
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[shaners] aaronpk: Could Loqi be re-written as a Hubot? (to be less Rubey and Goldbergy)
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Loqi :)
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aaronpk definitely not hubot
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aaronpk hubot is too monolithic
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[shaners] Oh. :shrug:
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@hugobaeta RT @petermolnar: @hugobaeta @instagram sorry to hear that; for the future though, in order to #ownyourdata https://indiewebcamp.com/Instagram #indiew… (twitter.com/_/status/655065044594528256)
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aaronpk I will probably rewrite Loqi with lita.io since it seems to be a pretty flexible framework
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@hugobaeta @nloureiro https://indiewebcamp.com/Instagram #ownyourdata #indieweb #shameonyouinstagram (twitter.com/_/status/655065136277815298)
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[shaners] Grool
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[shaners] Yet another project for you. :stuck_out_tongue:
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aaronpk I have a lot of feels about the architecture of IRC bots
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[shaners] Of course you do.
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bear I think I have at least 3 different python chatbot frameworks in the dusty corners of my harddrives
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aaronpk i started rewriting Loqi in a node.js framework a friend made. that's the Loqi running everywhere except freenode now
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aaronpk all the Loqi fun is still written in PHP tho ;)
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bear my most recent attempt made use of redis for it's pubsub and storage
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bear I've always wondered how php would perform if used as a command line language
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aaronpk it's fine
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aaronpk yeah I use redis for pubsub for bots
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bear redis pubsub slinging json blobs == super simple and very flexible
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aaronpk you can even go pretty deep with process control and forking in php
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bear yea, I thought it would be - all of the things that I don't like about php are all related to mod_php and it's web usecases
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tantek interesting example of POSSE email -> Twitter using a textimage: https://twitter.com/tinysubversions/status/652486692004196352
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@tinysubversions When mainstream tech publications send me email interview questions I respond like this. I don't get published often https://twitter.com/tinysubversions/status/652486692004196352/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/652486692004196352)
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tantek (check out the photo)
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[shaners] That’s my kind of response
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snarfed anyone know why the indieweb github org's membership is private?
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snarfed we could easily make it public: https://github.com/organizations/indieweb/settings/teams
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aaronpk probably because that setting was added after the org was created
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bear most orgs leave it up to the members to advertise their status
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snarfed both good points
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snarfed indieweb is pretty explicitly open in general though
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snarfed i'm inclined to make it public
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voxpelli still good to be able to chose if you want to advertise it on your profile or not
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bear IMO it should be up to the individual
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snarfed i guess yeah
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voxpelli (me is not a member of it though so doesn't affect me)
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snarfed currently trying to figure out how to do that
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snarfed one minute in and counting...
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bear do what - make your membership public?
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rhiaro you go to the list of members and the setting is next to your name I believe
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snarfed yes
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snarfed don't tell me
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snarfed damn you rhiaro
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snarfed :P
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rhiaro oops
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rhiaro sorry
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snarfed lol np
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bear LOL
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bear you will notice that owner's can change other normal members but cannot change other owners visibility
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bear this is all part of the org security changes that they have been rolling out lately
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[shaners] Is anyone from the channel in Boston/Cambridge?
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[shaners] I’m in town for a couple few days (currently at MIT Media Lab).
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gRegorLove I can't seem to find the conversation about mf2 for abstracts linking to the paper in PDF format. Currently I'm using u-url for the abstract's page. I see KartikPrabhu uses u-url to link to the PDF, though.
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tantek shaners - yes, rhiaro is basically right there at MIT
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tantek gRegorLove: you can do both
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tantek link to all the URLs!
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gRegorLove Oh duh.
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gRegorLove Back to the coffeeboard. That was an easy one, gRegor.
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[shaners] @rhiaro: Hi! I don’t think we’ve met before. :wave:
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tantek shaners - yeah, you and rhiaro should definitely meet. she knows the good local vegan places.
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[kevinmarks] Would using u-content make sense? Hm. The name/summary/content split is trickier when the content is in a less parseable form.
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[shaners] kevinmarks: for what?
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gRegorLove I'm content with u-url.
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tantek gRegorLove++ LOL
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Loqi gRegorLove has 38 karma
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gRegorLove (No pun intended)
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rhiaro waves at shaners
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tantek kevinmarks: what's the use-case? or are you still talking about the citing someone else's paper thing?
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[shaners] rhiaro: how best to DM?
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rhiaro shaners: IRC or twitter
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snarfed apropos of nothing...erinjo's known site http://erinjo.is/ has been down for a while now. maybe months. sad.
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snarfed http://erinjorichey.com/ is still up at least
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[kevinmarks] I thought gregorlove was talking about abstracts linking to pdf papers
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gRegorLove Yeah, I was.
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[shaners] Rhiaro: follow on Twitter for DMs please. :blush:
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rhiaro indiefollows http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/10/1445017360
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tantek rhiaro: interesting that your posts still display BST when you're in EDT :)
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rhiaro tantek: yeah, gonna fix that
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tantek I don't even know what the right answer is. Hence more of a question ("interesting") than any kind of judgment.
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rhiaro I create posts with a timezone, but somewhere in the heart of my site it gets nuked to a timestamp before it comes back out again
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rhiaro I store the timezone though
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rhiaro Though I'm not sure if I timestamp it before I store it and it gets reset to BST anyway
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tantek most systems nuke that info because programmers tend to be all about the Z
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voxpelli best time of the year to fix it now – when the US and EU exits summer time at different times
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rhiaro and cos my server is in the UK, when I don't specify date for a post it defaults to BST
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tantek voxpelli: yes, a good time for testing. it's like two weeks right?
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voxpelli yeah, Sunday next week for EU and Sunday the week after that for US
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voxpelli great time for US/EU coop, an entire week of an extra hour of overlap :)
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aaronpk lol yeah proper timezone support is the first thing I did on my site
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tantek "proper timezone" <-- oxymoron ;)
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aaronpk proper timezone support
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tantek that too
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aaronpk i don't see what's controversial about the timezone the post is authored in is the one that is displayed
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tantek e.g. from a UX perspective, still curious which is better, showing timezone in the perspective of the reader, or the creator of the content? and when/why?
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tantek from the reader's perspective, it's *harder* for them to do the timezone math to figure out if the post was minutes ago, hours ago, etc.
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tantek and *confusing* when they see posts from the future
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aaronpk that's better than the majority of the defaults which is timezone information is dropped, or hardcoded to one timezone always
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tantek sure, I didn't say it was the worst ;)
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tantek just questioning "proper" as that makes it sound like a provably solved problem
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aaronpk i might add a little bit of javascript that lets viewers show all timestamps in their browser timezone
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aaronpk well frankly I do think it's solved, since this way I don't lose any timezone information
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tantek I've considered JS for time since display (and parenthesized creator timezone absolute time)
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tantek aaronpk: no the presentation problem is not solved
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tantek storage sure
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voxpelli if the time matters it should, if possible, probably be a relative time rather than an absolute one then
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tantek voxpelli: relative time alone is worse. e.g. screenshots, old tabs etc.
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tantek Pretty sure aaronpk has a canonical article on this :)
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voxpelli yeah, absolute ones are for reference, relative ones for relating to
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aaronpk xhttp://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/08/23/1/you-should-not-be-displaying-relative-dates
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gRegorLove Changing TZ to reader TZ woulud make sense in a /reader I think
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aaronpk i don't know where the x came from ops
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gRegorLove '90s http. XHTTP
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tantek hah gRegorLove beat me to it
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voxpelli https://github.com/github/time-elements is an interesting progressive enhancement web component for time
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tantek was going to say, ever since the mid 2000s beginning of the end for the XML stack, there's been a lot of loose abandoned x's floating around the nets.
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@benwerd I made an #indieweb t-shirt! Do you own your own domain? Wear it with pride: https://t.co/nBJivLfEee (twitter.com/_/status/655082697690185728)
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aaronpk omg hahaha
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aaronpk benwerd++
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Loqi benwerd has 93 karma
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@withknown RT @benwerd: I made an #indieweb t-shirt! Do you own your own domain? Wear it with pride: https://teespring.com/my-url-is (twitter.com/_/status/655082887411167232)
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tantek whoa wat
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aaronpk i'm not convinced i'd want to write on that with a sharpie tho
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tantek benwerd++ for that shirt!!!
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Loqi benwerd has 94 karma
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aaronpk anyway yeah I agree that displaying local times is a great job for a reader
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tantek ordering two. you know, for redundancy.
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tantek ordered!
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aaronpk i broke their order form
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tantek lol
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aaronpk i always keyboard shortcut through those forms
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aaronpk apparently they have an onclick event for the state dropdown so it didn't actually register that
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aaronpk told me to enter a state when I submitted it, but then the form came back prefilled with the state chosen
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aaronpk ordered mine!
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tantek "We reached our minimum!"
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aaronpk woo!
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@benwerd We've already hit the minimum number of orders for my #indieweb t-shirt. Get yours before it's too late! https://teespring.com/my-url-is (twitter.com/_/status/655085210497773568)
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benwerd Well that was more popular than expected
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benwerd Pivoting into apparel now
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aaronpk do you get a cut of the sales?
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benwerd A small one, yes
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[kevinmarks] That did better than my "I <? PHP" one
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snarfed nice!
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snarfed hey benwerd, btw, i'm guessing you know http://erinjo.is/ has been down for a while?
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benwerd Yes, her domain slipped - she's going to repoint a new one
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benwerd It was too much to renew
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benwerd The downside of owning your own domain
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snarfed aww
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GWG I haven't worn a shirt with anything on it in years
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kylewm oh i remember her mentioning that a while ago, it was going to be like $250 to renew?
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tantek so, iceland?
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tantek what is short domains?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains
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tantek.com created /HELLO_my_URL_is (+792) "stub with dfn, nametags, tshirt" (view diff)
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snarfed $250 wat
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cleverdevil ugh... domains are such a racket.
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cleverdevil well, not all of them.
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cleverdevil but, many :P
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cleverdevil $250 is straight up predatory, though
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tantek.com edited /short-domains (+220) "/* Domains */ .is and noting renewal cost" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /short-domains (+102) "-h1, +dfn" (view diff)
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kylewm i might have made up $250
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aaronpk it was still a lot
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tantek kylewm - feel free to caveat the #
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tantek benwerd: feel free to expand upon https://indiewebcamp.com/HELLO_my_URL_is :)
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GWG benwerd: Is it available in a hat? Button? So on?
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benwerd Not yet, but I'll take requests :)
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aaronpk appengine is not returning any error messages but is clearly not doing what it should be doing
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tantek GWG - feel free to add such requests to a Brainstorming section on https://indiewebcamp.com/HELLO_my_URL_is :)
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snarfed1 aaronpk: happy to look if you want
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aaronpk trying to run `dev_appserver.py .` it looks like it's running, but fails with "ERROR:root:php failure (255) with:" and then the HTML of the page
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snarfed hmm, ok. sounds somewhat php specific, so i may not be that much help
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snarfed consider skimming the php getting started tutorial to see if anything jumps out at you
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snarfed (sorry, i know i basically told you to rtfm :| )
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tantek bear++ for trying to push to fix the indiewebify github / deployment situation
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Loqi bear has 76 karma
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tantek snarfed++ for trying to push to fix the indiewebify github / deployment situation
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Loqi snarfed has 149 karma
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tantek aaronp++ for volunteering to host to help fix the indiewebify github / deployment situation
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Loqi aaronp has 1 karma
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tantek argh
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tantek is about to cause too much karma
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tantek aaronpk++ for volunteering to host to help fix the indiewebify github / deployment situation
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Loqi slow down!
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tantek lol
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tantek but it was a typo Loqi!
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Loqi who, me?
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kylewm.com edited /short-domains (+142) "/* is */ caveat" (view diff)
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aaronpk snarfed: the "hello world" works fine, so it's defintiely something about the project
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aaronpk i wish it would give me a real error message
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KartikPrabhu Loqi give aaronpk a real error message
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aaronpk snarfed: do you have to restart dev_appserver.py when you change source files?
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snarfed aaronpk: not for python. i'd guess not php too
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snarfed but not sure
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aaronpk narrowed it down to something with one of the files
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aaronpk it's weird it's not giving me error messages
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@Comy1982 RT @benwerd: We've already hit the minimum number of orders for my #indieweb t-shirt. Get yours before it's too late! https://t.co/nBJivLfE… (twitter.com/_/status/655092772525969409)
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snarfed aaronpk: try --log_level debug ?
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aaronpk nothing
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aaronpk no log in the admin console either
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aaronpk i will just do a binary search to find the line of code that's causing the error
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aaronpk wtf there was a missing "endif"
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aaronpk the code on github must not be live
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[snarfed] whee
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aaronpk whee http://indiewebify.appspot.com/
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[snarfed] cool!
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aaronpk it looks like we can do github->appengine without travis-ci. is there a benefit to using travis in the middle?
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[snarfed] at least the wm sender returns an error now instead of hanging
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[snarfed] gating on tests? otherwise meh
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aaronpk it's using php5.5 on appengine
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aaronpk 5.4 on indiewebify.me
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aaronpk other than that, no code changes from me
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[snarfed] well the endif right
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aaronpk yeah
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[snarfed] still, nice work
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aaronpk ah well there are tests, so let's see if i can hook it up to travis
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aaronpk heh today in js;dr... http://googlecloudplatform.blogspot.com/2014/04/using-github-for-push-to-deploy.html
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aaronpk https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/584/21603457324_2fab911c28_b.jpg
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[snarfed] yup blame blogger
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aaronpk hmm i'm gonna have to commit an API key to the repo so that it can deploy
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snarfed huh
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snarfed this is for travis?
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aaronpk yeah http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/deployment/google-app-engine/
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snarfed i think github lets you gate push triggers on its "checks," like travis, so maybe use github's push-to-deploy instead of travis's?
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aaronpk i would if i could read that blog post on how to use github's deploy
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snarfed now you're just being silly :P
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aaronpk no i mean it! it's completely blank!
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snarfed but you know why and how to fix it
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aaronpk i do?
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snarfed enable js and/or cookies
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aaronpk i didn't disable js or cookies
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snarfed ohhh so it's not jsdr
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snarfed yeah me too
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aaronpk oh the page is returning http 404...
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aaronpk here we go https://cloud.google.com/tools/cloud-repositories/docs/push-to-deploy
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snarfed that's still from jenkins though
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aaronpk gah
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snarfed oh actually unclear
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snarfed looks like that's probably good, and hopefully doesn't require creds in the repo
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ben_thatmustbeme WOOT !!! https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/4/24/1/_
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bear with travis you don't commit keys to the repo
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aaronpk bear: but... http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/deployment/google-app-engine/
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aaronpk "For a minimal configuration, all you need to do is add the following to your .travis.yml:"
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bear you encrypt them using their command line tool and then reference it in the yaml config
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aaronpk keyfile: "YOUR SERVICE ACCOUNT JSON FILE"
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bear getting a link...
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bear http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/encryption-keys/
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voxpelli aaronpk: the most deployment GitHub supports itself is webhooks I think: https://developer.github.com/guides/delivering-deployments/
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aaronpk oh it's encrypting it with the travis public key, that makes sense
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voxpelli see also https://github.com/integrations/feature/deploy for a list of deploy tools
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bear yea
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /reply-chain (+188) "/* Indieweb Examples */ yay! i now have comments below me" (view diff)
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aaronpk ookay let's see how this goes
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ben_thatmustbeme is stoked he got comments on comments now
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bear ^5 ben_thatmustbeme
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aaronpk snarfed: it's telling me "Please use Google Developers Console to activate the API for your project." but there are like 9929418 APIs in the developer console
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snarfed lol yes
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aaronpk which one do i enable?
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aaronpk it's apparently not "Cloud Deployment Manager API"
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snarfed i've never actually set up push-to-deploy, or travis
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snarfed is there a Cloud Source Repositories ?
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk Cloud Storage Service
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snarfed of course
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aaronpk ?
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snarfed joke :P
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aaronpk oh
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aaronpk i have no idea. this error message doesn't exist on google either
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aaronpk i'm gonna go with the compute engine api
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aaronpk oh but now it wants billing info
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bear you have to enable GCE Auth via the API
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aaronpk GCE == Google Compute Engine?
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bear yes
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aaronpk okay yeah it wants billing info for that
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bear yea, GCE is the paid side of app-engine
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aaronpk but i'm not gonna have to pay for this right?
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bear you will
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bear they offer a free trial with restrictions but when you use up the free... billing hits
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aaronpk but...i don't have to pay for it if i just deploy to app engine
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bear yea, the GCE part is bad info if your targetting app-engine
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aaronpk i'm so confused
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bear so you have hooked the github up to Google Source Repository?
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snarfed to rephrase: some app engine and google cloud features are free but still require you to add a credit card
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aaronpk github now pushes to travis
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aaronpk https://travis-ci.org/indieweb/indiewebify-me/jobs/85803680#L354
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snarfed often as a more heavyweight captcha
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aaronpk travis is trying to deploy to appengine
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bear is catching up - opening up tabs for travis and app-engine now
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aaronpk bear: i'm following this btw http://docs.travis-ci.com/user/deployment/google-app-engine/
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bear k, visit the google developer's console and either create or select the project you made for this
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bear https://console.developers.google.com
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aaronpk okay i'm on it
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bear select the permissions item on the sidebar
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aaronpk k I see the service account I made for it ther
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bear you will see a list of service accounts
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snarfed aaronpk: sounds like you should add bear to the google project as a dev or owner :P
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aaronpk there are 4 service accounts, all can edit
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aaronpk oh yes i'd be happy to do that too. i'd like to learn enough to do this tho
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bear k, so you already added a credential for a service account of type json?
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aaronpk yep, and encrypted that and stored it in the repo
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bear is the yml file for travis in the repo?
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aaronpk yeah https://github.com/indieweb/indiewebify-me/blob/master/.travis.yml
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bear that sure does look right
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bear let's go see what travis is outputing
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aaronpk this is the error travis is returning https://travis-ci.org/indieweb/indiewebify-me/jobs/85803680#L354
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bear i'm working thru how we did this at &yet but not having direct access now to that internal data is slowing me down
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aaronpk it's *so close*
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aaronpk snarfed: so if i enable billing, it's still possible to use google compute engine on a free tier?
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snarfed GCE, no
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snarfed i think there's a free trial but then you pay, like EC@
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snarfed er EC2
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snarfed but app engine, yes, has an infinite free tier
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aaronpk is there an app engine api that i can enable?
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snarfed the travis/deploy api part, i'm not familiar with
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snarfed sorry
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snarfed but in general don't be afraid to plug in a credit card, if you're just using app engine and some api(s) you won't get charged for small usage
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aaronpk well it didn't ask me for a card to launch this on app engine myself
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snarfed right. it might for some part of push-to-deploy though
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bear did you visit the link in the error message: https://console.developers.google.com/project/484582315993/apiui/api
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aaronpk yeah thats just the interface that shows me a thousand different APIs I could enable
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bear bah - I just realized I was still using my &yet credentials - they still haven't cleared me from things -- so i'm wiping my browser cache and reloading google cloud
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aaronpk yeah i'm stumped
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bear there are 7 APIs enabled by default for all new projects
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bear I'm wondering if it's the deployment manager or even the compute engine one
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aaronpk i already tried deployment manager
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bear it doesn't hurt to enable all of them - try that maybe?
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aaronpk i can try compute engine, but if compute engine and app engine are different things I don't think it's going to work
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aaronpk I can't enable compute engine until I add billing info
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kylewm a bunch of weird stuff just popped up on Pestagram tagged #indieweb
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kylewm except none of it is actually tagged
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aaronpk dang, same error with the compute engine api enabled
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kylewm !tell kevinmarks: pestagram is being weird, every url redirects to / and is blank
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear I suspect it's something that the gae command line tool enables but isn't being setup in the travis flow
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aaronpk this was supposed to be easy :cries:
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bear i'm going to setup a command line test deploy and then work thru that to see if I get any clues
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bear i'll report back what I find
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aaronpk cool thanks
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snarfed aaronpk: gross alternative: set up a cron job somewhere that runs git pull; appcfg.py update
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snarfed not ideal, but something
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aaronpk yeah that was my first plan without using appengine or travis
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snarfed (can also block on tests passing, obviously)
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aaronpk well, actually i was gonna have it deploy from a github hook
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aaronpk it'd be nice to get this hooked up properly tho
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kevinmarks hm. maybe my api key expired?
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Loqi kevinmarks: kylewm left you a message 14 minutes ago: pestagram is being weird, every url redirects to / and is blank http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-10-16/line/1445027714585
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kevinmarks no, works now
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kevinmarks api glitch at their end?
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kylewm http://www.pestagram.com/tag/indieweb works for you?
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kevinmarks hm, it just did
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kevinmarks then it didn't
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kevinmarks where do heroku hide the logs?
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kylewm i only know how to get them on the command line with `heroku logs` (iirc)
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kevinmarks looks like baidu and yandex are spidering it
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kevinmarks andbing
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kevinmarks maybe I need a robots.txt
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kylewm ohh is it heroku free tier?
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snarfed aaronpk: agreed on trying for the ideal way. i often set myself a rough time limit to get that working, and if i pass it i fall back to lower tech
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kevinmarks yes
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kylewm if nothing else, woodwind polls it every hour which would try to keep it awake more than 18 hours
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kevinmarks AMP reinvents the web as JSON, continued https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/657
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kevinmarks seems like a microformats opportunity?
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aaronpk oh man
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[kevinmarks] This is exactly the original rss use case, when it was for netscapes home page
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Zegnat So, they invent AMP because they need a webpage format that is easily embeddable (iframable), and then when they need to embed content cards they need a different format?
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Zegnat That makes ... little sense :/
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[kevinmarks] This is a proposal from an engineer at the guardian.
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Zegnat I saw that after I typed, sorry. The argument still stands though, I think
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Zegnat kevinmarks, I still think it is weird to create separate JSON files no matter who proposes it. Especially as AMP has a standing example of JSON-LD on the actual page for publishing metadata. Even setting the mf argument aside
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[kevinmarks] Ignoring the json part briefly, the case for a separate suggested pages url makes some sense. It looks like a h-feed of h-entry's to me, but maybe the photo centricity means something else makes more sense?
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tantek aaronpk++ for volunteering to host to help fix the indiewebify github / deployment situation
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Loqi aaronpk has 979 karma
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tantek aaronp-- typo
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Loqi aaronp has 0 karma
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tantek kevinmarks: re: https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/issues/657 so I think I dare you to post a comment to that with a *MINIMAL* parsed h-entry result that has the same feature set as they are attempting to reinvent. And the point out BTW this can be automatically generated from HTML as well.
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tantek Especially since someone already asked "some standard microformat ... ?"
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[kevinmarks] Seems fair
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[kevinmarks] Just for benwerd http://www.dailydot.com/lol/chicken-treats-chicken-tweets/
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benwerd :D
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kevinmarks has anyone got a page where they do have a photo per post?
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tantek like aaronparecki.com/photos ?
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tantek guesses off the top of his head
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kevinmarks I mean more like article posts with photo previews
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tantek almost: http://aaronparecki.com/articles
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kevinmarks u-featured?
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tantek have you missed all the discussion of u-featured over the past year?!?
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tantek what is featured?
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Loqi featured is a proposed mf2 property (typically as u-featured) for h-entry that indicates a representative image for a primarily textual post https://indiewebcamp.com/featured
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kevinmarks I was clarifying that - u-featured rather than u-photo
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kevinmarks does anyone else use that?
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kevinmarks I suppose http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry has u-fretured as proposed, so that's normative enough to link to
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kevinmarks kartik's front page is good https://kartikprabhu.com
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KartikPrabhu yup :)
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tantek re: does anyone use that - did you bother checking /featured#IndieWeb_Examples which is the pattern that answers that question?
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kevinmarks yes, I di just check that, but aaronpk isn't there
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tantek more documentation of examples welcome! (e.g. aaronpk ^^^)
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kevinmarks ;)
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@aribadernatal Croom & Groom round out #dlrn15 panel talking #indieweb edtech. "Designing a New School for Learning & Innovation" http://dlrn2015.sched.org/event/113af8d46d93b9cb7c4755a653385f30 (twitter.com/_/status/655144988632743936)
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tantek question is, do any /reader implementations do anything special with u-featured? kylewm ?
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kylewm i don't
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kevinmarks woodwind doesn't have a preview/full distinction
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kevinmarks this story cards thing feels liek it's worth doing the full microformats process ecercise on
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kevinmarks as therea rea lots fo examples of existing ones
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kevinmarks and of course aaron's example had u-featured in https://github.com/ampproject/amphtml/pull/499/files
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kevinmarks hm, they have img with srcset and no src
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kevinmarks that's a bit dubious
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kevinmarks grr the guardian uses the u-prefix fro utility
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kevinmarks we need to push back harder on that
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kevinmarks http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fkevinmarks%2Fed0b487635ae02e20727%2Fraw%2F85687520a9ef15a4276d3c2dc561bd49004fc790%2Fguardianstoryexamplemf2.html&html=&pretty=on
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kevinmarks should we be parsing srcset?
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kevinmarks or is an img with no src invalid?
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@jevdemon My mistake, Quill is more interesting than I thought. So is IndieWeb btw. http://www.evdemon.org/2015/learning-more-about-quill (twitter.com/_/status/655168135364919296)
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