#indiewebcamp 2015-09-28

2015-09-28 UTC
wolftune, snarfed, interactivist, scoates, valan, M-kegan1, ShaneHudson_, Guerillero|BNC, mdik_, blueyed_, mattronix, benward, lelacag, __number5__, terminalpixel, mlncn, davidmead, tantek, M-kegan, M-Kodo, sdboyer, lukebrooker, gRegorLove, eschnou, loic_m, sparverius and [snarfed] joined the channel
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[snarfed] domains on bridgy, along with the number of accounts that have each domain in their silo profile(s): https://snarfed.org/domains.txt
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KartikPrabhu kylewm has 8 domains on bridgy!
tantek, nitot_ and eschnou joined the channel
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Jeena oh yeah, liking via micropub
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voxpelli !tell rhiaro Edingburg HWC switching to tuesdays? Malmö is looking at a non-wednesday date as well due to our venue – would be nice to pick same day
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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rhiaro voxpelli, discuss with tbrb and kongaloosh!
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Loqi rhiaro: voxpelli left you a message 1 minute ago: Edingburg HWC switching to tuesdays? Malmö is looking at a non-wednesday date as well due to our venue – would be nice to pick same day http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443429374270
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voxpelli !tell tbrb Edingburg HWC switching to tuesdays? Malmö is looking at a non-wednesday date as well due to our venue – would be nice to pick same day
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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voxpelli rhiaro: thanks :)
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pfefferle good morning folks
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rosetree good morning
petermolnar, eschnou, interactivist, pfefferle, lewisnyman, friedcell, blueyed and LauraJ joined the channel
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tbrb voxpelli: There seems to be a consensus for Tuesdays so I think that may be a go ahead. We'll leave this week as Thurs and then go from there
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Loqi tbrb: voxpelli left you a message 2 hours, 1 minute ago: Edingburg HWC switching to tuesdays? Malmö is looking at a non-wednesday date as well due to our venue – would be nice to pick same day http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443429470180
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voxpelli tbrb: ok, I'll look into whether we will follow you next week
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Kongaloosh tbrb: yeah, tuesdays would be best since they don't clash with Pre-wired, TARDIS, and SociTEA
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Kongaloosh do we have any consensus on where we should be?
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Kongaloosh I heard that Alistar was willing to offer up some space in the SkyScanner offices. This way we'd be in a more public location. Also, it's central.
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Kongaloosh tbrb: that's what I was hailing you about.
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tbrb Oh, herp, it helps if I scrolled my channel list down
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Kongaloosh tbrb: so what are your thoughts on venues?
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tbrb We were going to have a look at Café Truva on Lady Lawson St I think
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tbrb I just need to confirm with them that there'll be space at least for this week
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tbrb Really dependant on numbers after that
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Kongaloosh that sounds good
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Kongaloosh I like that
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Kongaloosh tbrb++
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Loqi tbrb has 6 karma
hs0ucy, mlncn, scoates, KartikPrabhu, nitot, snarfed, LauraJ, pfefferle and wolftune joined the channel
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@ChrisAldrich @timwindsor @jeffjarvis @marcoarment Which post? Where? This is why #indieweb principles are more important than ever. (twitter.com/_/status/648510174529908736)
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kylewm ah ha, I collected extra bridgy accounts from changing my account name on twitter and instagram
shiflett, LauraJ, KartikPrabhu, nitot, hs0ucy, tantek, friedcell and snarfed joined the channel
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snarfed woo! i just logged into kylewm's xmpp micropub bot successfully. mailto:micropub@kylewm.com
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snarfed worked perfectly
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snarfed er, s/mailto://
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snarfed and successfully posted a reply
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snarfed kylewm++ nice work!
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Loqi kylewm has 242 karma
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aaronpk whoa
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Loqi aaronpk: KevinMarks left you a message on 9/26 at 12:20pm: this is very good on flexbox https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/a-guide-to-flexbox/ http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-26/line/1443295210298
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bear kylewm++
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bear xmpp++
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Loqi kylewm has 243 karma
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Loqi xmpp has 1 karma
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aaronpk nice
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[snarfed] kylewm++ again for the bot's UX specifically. so smooth! so easy! no docs needed!
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Loqi kylewm has 244 karma
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bear [snarfed] - do you have a link for that?
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aaronpk I would love to try it out but I don't really have any jabber accounts now that google dropped it
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bear I can set you up on one of mine if you just want to explore
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[snarfed] aaronpk: gtalk still does jabber fine
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[snarfed] i used it for this
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[snarfed] federation had a couple gotchas, but otherwise it's OK
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aaronpk oh! thought they dropped it
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[snarfed] bear: project is https://github.com/kylewm/micropub-xmpp-bot
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bear thanks [snarfed]
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bear gtalk doesn't federate across other xmpp domains but you can use it to connect to another xmpp server as a client
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bear the biggest issue is that they don't *require* encrypted S2S which most modern xmpp services now require
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kylewm aw thanks snarfed for plugging my thing :)
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kylewm snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 143 karma
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kylewm bear++ for helping to maintain a dead simple XMPP library!
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Loqi bear has 72 karma
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cweiske which lib?
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kylewm SleekXMPP
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tantek what is SleekXMPP?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SleekXMPP" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103a
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tbrb sleekxmpp is pretty cool, it's what I use when I do to anything with xmpp
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loqi.me created /sleekxmpp (+100) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443463888650 and dfn added by tbrb" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tbrb whoops
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aaronpk nice
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tantek lol tbrb - and no problem, just means it's up to you to fix the page now with a proper definition ;)
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harryreeder.co.uk edited /sleekxmpp (+261) "Create a basic stub" (view diff)
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tbrb tantek: rhiaro just told me the same thing :P
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rhiaro is irl wikipolicing
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tantek.com edited /Events (-70) "-Meetup from red links" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /sleekxmpp to /SleekXMPP "move to proper capitalization"
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tantek.com edited /SleekXMPP (+100) "tweak dfn, linky linky, see also" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme just made a couple minor PRs against php-mf2
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tantek why against and why not for?
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tantek who is running SleekXMPP on their own server? anyone?
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aaronpk um because English?
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tantek aaronpk: both prepositions would work as English
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tantek hence the question
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snarfed tantek: "against" is commonly used in that context
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aaronpk I think "for" is used when describing the contents of the pull request
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snarfed why that came about, who knows, but it is common
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snarfed aaronpk++ right
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Loqi aaronpk has 960 karma
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tantek "against" seems like unnecessarily confrontational framing when not intended in that way but ok
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snarfed understood
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aaronpk yeah no idea where it came from but that's popular usage
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aaronpk ah it's this definition of against: "in anticipation of and preparation for"
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tantek.com edited /SleekXMPP (+125) "presumably relevance of this project is that you can run it on your indie web site, noting no known indieweb examples yet" (view diff)
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tantek !tell tbrb when you have this week's HWC Edi confirmed (one way or another) could you update https://indiewebcamp.com/Events#Upcoming and the event page week's HWC Edi accordingly? Thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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snarfed bear: re gtalk and xmpp federation, you're right about that encryption gotcha, but federation does still work with servers that don't require that (even though i know the recent spec says it's required)
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snarfed e.g. i interacted with micropub@kylewm.com from an @gmail.com account fine
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kylewm ohh I was wondering about that -- so it works becuase encryption is not required on my prosody server??
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snarfed kylewm: i think yeah
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snarfed https://xmpp.org/2015/03/no-its-not-the-end-of-xmpp-for-google-talk/
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kylewm I have read that post probably 4 times in the last year, and it always goes over my head :)
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snarfed heh
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tantek kylewm: are you running sleekxmpp on kylewm.com?
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davidmead hi @snarfed
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snarfed hey davidmead!
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davidmead replied to you on Twitter just now
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davidmead really confused about what is going on with Instagram and Bridgy etc.
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snarfed ok!
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snarfed may well be our fault, due to a couple big recent changes
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kylewm tantek: my micropub bot uses the SleekXMPP library as a client. so it's running on the same server, but not related to my *web*site at all
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davidmead was that on Saturday @snarfed?
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aaronpk but you do post to your website using it now right?
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snarfed davidmead: middle of last week
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snarfed davidmead: do you use ownyourgram to copy your photos from IG to your site?
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tantek kylewm: sounds like my understanding of XMPP is too poor to capture the indiewebness of it - could you fix my inaccuracies here? https://indiewebcamp.com/SleekXMPP
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aaronpk oh man ownyourgram has been acting up lately too. instagram is just not including some people's photos
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aaronpk it's still working for some people tho which is frustrating
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snarfed yeah that may be the problem
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davidmead Hmm. I think the issues started Saturday. I posted (in quick succesion) about 8 photos from a conference on Instagram. Only 4 made it to my blog…
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snarfed aaronpk: http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/ has some of his recent IG photos, but without syndication links
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davidmead since that nothing I’ve posted to Instagram gets posted on my blog…
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davidmead @aaronpk I used that way back to start and it’s been posting fine ever since
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aaronpk afaik ownyourgram is still sending syndication links, so that'd be an issue with the micropub server, did anything change there?
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davidmead I used to have syndication working (I cobbled together that for Known) but that now seems to be broken...
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davidmead also the last one that had syndication no longer displays the photo
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davidmead I know @benwerd pushed some changes to Known but I updated that before I was having these issues
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aaronpk oh I see something else
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davidmead couple of weeks ago
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aaronpk davidmead: did you happen to delete an IG photo?
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davidmead what @aaronpk?
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kylewm.com edited /SleekXMPP (+166) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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aaronpk did you delete any of the recent photos you posted?
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davidmead I might’ve deleted one on IG
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davidmead would that muck it up?
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aaronpk apparently I wasn't handling that error so it's crashing
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davidmead uh-ou
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davidmead uh-oh ;-)
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aaronpk this should be fun
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davidmead seems my lot in life to be “that guy” and keep breaking the indieweb :-)
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aaronpk well it's my fault for not handling that better anyway :)
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[snarfed] davidmead: we appreciate it! finding bugs is always valuable and helpful
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tantek davidmead: welcome to the club :)
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aaronpk ohh hey
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tantek kylewm++ whoa you can post to your site (or anyone can post to their micropub site) via XMPP using your bot?!?
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kylewm yeah, davidmead, i must say tantek was the original "that guy"
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Loqi kylewm has 245 karma
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tantek what is micropub-xmpp-bot?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "micropub-xmpp-bot" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103b
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KevinMarks "we aim to make Medium the dominant pipeline for connecting quality content and conversation." plumbing? https://medium.com/@andydoyle/medium-s-new-funding-round-48437c641e06
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bear.im edited /SleekXMPP (+216) "edits to clear up some small points" (view diff)
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kylewm (would it be more accurate to call it xmpp-micropub-bot?)
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davidmead lol @tantek @kylewm
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aaronpk wow that was subtle. so davidmead you tagged someone in a photo who is a private account, and *that* is the error i'm crashing on
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tantek.com edited /SleekXMPP (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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bear to me that makes it another micropub endpoint - but using xmpp instead of html
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aaronpk i have a bad feeling about this... I suspect when I fix this, it's going to go re-send a bunch of photos to people
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davidmead @aaronpk really? don’t suppose you know who? IG & Twitter seem to be obfuscating that stuff recently
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aaronpk PM'd you the photo
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aaronpk anyway i'm fixing that bug so it won't crash
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davidmead @aaronpk wow. the IG app didn’t even flag that when I posted it, and I don’t follow her
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aaronpk i suppose person-tagging a private account isn't necessarily wrong
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snarfed1 "ethically dubious"
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snarfed (kidding!)
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snarfed KevinMarks++ for silos-as-plumbing
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Loqi KevinMarks has 167 karma
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davidmead the privacy settings seem to be all over the place with the silos - Flickr does a good job I think, Twitter tells you no-retweeting a private account
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davidmead guess IG does…nothing
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davidmead that photo is the one that then stopped all others from being posted. should we respect that and not syndicate it? thoughts?
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tantek.com edited /Micropub (+55) "/* micropub-xmpp-bot */ note date, link to its own page, explicitly note open source" (view diff)
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@ruihildt .@facebook is again down, time for a proper shot of #indieweb. :D Centralization is bad, one down, everyone down. :/ https://twitter.com/ruihildt/status/648575467763703808/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/648575467763703808)
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tantek wow really?
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davidmead btw @snarfed I looked at a photo when i did have comments but i don’t see syndication code in that either http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2015/tired-dog-is-dog-tired. What should it look like?
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tantek davidmead: note that IRC nickname references don't need @ - and if you do use @-name it gets converted in the logs to a Twitter profile link: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443467767936
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tantek (which is likely not what/who you intended to link to)
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davidmead ah thx tantek
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tantek.com created /micropub-xmpp-bot (+539) "stub with dfn, how to use it, see also" (view diff)
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davidmead i’m twitter conditioned
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snarfed davidmead: looks like the syndication link(s) in that post of yours are hidden. that's probably how ownyourgram includes them
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snarfed usually on known, i think syndication links are at the very bottom, under comments, as "Also on ..."
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aaronpk hidden?
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snarfed aaronpk: no anchor text
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aaronpk ownyourgram sends just syndication={url}
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aaronpk as a separate field, not in the body
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tantek what is micropub-xmpp-bot?
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Loqi micropub-xmpp-bot is an experimental XMPP chat bot for posting notes, replies, likes, and reposts to sites that support Micropub https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub-xmpp-bot
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snarfed aaronpk: ok. all i know is http://blog.davidjohnmead.com/2015/tired-dog-is-dog-tired has <a href="https://instagram.com/p/6-c5RvhPu2/" rel="syndication" class="u-syndication"></a>
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aaronpk i guess that's something Known is doing then
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davidmead I dropped this into Known’s github https://github.com/davidmead/IndiePub/commit/04d66b8e160c26dbe5e71643db6dcc4ec1e4ea42 and it was what I was running...
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davidmead maybe it got overwritten last time I updated from Github
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davidmead i’ll have to check with benwerd
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aaronpk oh well that's doing what it should be doing, which is adding an empty <a> tag: https://github.com/davidmead/IndiePub/commit/04d66b8e160c26dbe5e71643db6dcc4ec1e4ea42#diff-30930d3a93ffd1fa351c0838dff78bbaR50
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davidmead i’ll add it back in myself. i did add this as an issue, as i thought it was now in the main repo
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aaronpk oh gotcha
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davidmead hmm the folder that used to be in is no longer in idno :-(
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snarfed sysadminning--
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Loqi sysadminning has -1 karma
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snarfed servers--
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Loqi servers has -2 karma
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snarfed we commiserate, davidmead. fixing this kind of stuff is no fun
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davidmead wouldn’t be too bad if i could actually code snarfed ;-) i’m an html, css, ux guy
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snarfed that counts!
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snarfed but eh it's still bad even when you can code :P
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aaronpk definitely still bad lol
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aaronpk i'm trying to reduce the number of servers and things I have to maintain
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davidmead and now i’ve broken all my site. grrrrr
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davidmead but IG photos now showing. thx aaronpk :-)
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kylewm davidmead: IndiePub is in the Known core now https://github.com/idno/Known/tree/master/IdnoPlugins/IndiePub
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davidmead i found it kylewm, but when i add the syndication code in, from before, it crashes the site
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davidmead :-(
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davidmead https://github.com/davidmead/IndiePub/commit/04d66b8e160c26dbe5e71643db6dcc4ec1e4ea42
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davidmead if its handled another way, it’s not working, for me at least
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aaronpk do you see an error message?
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tantek wow that's amazing that facebook.com is down
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tantek "Sorry, something went wrong. / We're working on it and we'll get it fixed as soon as we can."
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davidmead maybe not anymore aaronpk. found i’d copied some ‘+’ from github page when i pasted it back inot enpoint.php
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@BillSeitz RT @benwerd: You can't solve the #redecentralize / #indieweb problem without figuring out where the money is coming from. (twitter.com/_/status/648584284723367936)
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@rhiaro @emax Shoulda really posted that from my own site first. That's better. #indieweb http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/09/shoulda-really (twitter.com/_/status/648584187746893824)
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@ShaneHudson RT @benwerd: You can't solve the #redecentralize / #indieweb problem without figuring out where the money is coming from. (twitter.com/_/status/648583651056295936)
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@emax RT @rhiaro: @emax #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/648583016734957570)
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@rhiaro @emax #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/648582941388460032)
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@benwerd You can't solve the #redecentralize / #indieweb problem without figuring out where the money is coming from. (twitter.com/_/status/648582582083325952)
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aaronpk tantek: what's amazing is that it's *still* down
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aaronpk ohai Loqi, where'd you come from
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Loqi :)
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aaronpk whoa medium http://techcrunch.com/2015/09/28/medium-raises-54m-will-hold-event-on-october-7th-to-announce-new-features-and-partnerships/
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tantek aaronpk: I'm getting transient page loads from facebook.com
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aaronpk yeah seems to be spotty for people
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tantek benwerd - you know better than such negative reasoning
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aaronpk i'm getting a combination of "err: connection refused" and "503 service unavailable" from facebook.com
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tantek screenshots!
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loqi.me created /negative_reasoning (+275) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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aaronpk https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/719/21792661865_a00aa9fdc6_b.jpg
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aaronpk https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/693/21169956384_4b0d5294d6_b.jpg
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kylewm I'm not convinced there's any money in #indieweb/#redecentralize
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davidmead u-syndication now back in my IG posts :-)
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aaronpk what are business models?
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Loqi business models are ways to offer indieweb products and or services that users pay for both for their own benefit, and in support an open indie web https://indiewebcamp.com/business-models
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tantek kylewm: I'm convinced that reasoning by "not convinced" statements is unlikely to lead anything actionable.
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kylewm :)
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kylewm once it becomes a business, money is a centralizing force, look at the successful podcast networks ... they started out as a couple people in a basement recording, and grew and acquired other podcasts, took over distribution of their t-shirts and marketing and selling advertising for them, until there are only a few big networks making money
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tantek kylewm: I think it's more likely there are some (most?) businesses that benefit from economies of scale (a weaker assertion of centralization), however that does not imply that all businesses do so.
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tantek Looks like benwerd's tweet was one in a tweet storm starting with https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/648580492019658753
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@benwerd Once upon a time, years and years ago, I used to believe you founded startups to build what you wanted to see in the world. I no longer do. (twitter.com/_/status/648580492019658753)
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aaronpk now I might wager that the startup model is not compatible with indieweb
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@kevinmarks RT @ruihildt: .@facebook is again down, time for a proper shot of #indieweb. :D Centralization is bad, one down, everyone down. :/ http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/648587968886640640)
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@RikMende RT @ruihildt: .@facebook is again down, time for a proper shot of #indieweb. :D Centralization is bad, one down, everyone down. :/ http://t… (twitter.com/_/status/648587139605786624)
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@RikMende RT @jordan_web: Question for the #indieweb If we syndicate while a silo is down, does the post get buffered and then posted later? (twitter.com/_/status/648587028817420288)
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@RikMende @jordan_web no it doesn't get posssed at all errors logs show a 404 response when trying so. I would love a buffer for @withknown #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/648586967387607040)
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@RikMende I can say #FacebookisDown from my @withknown site and I like it and yes you should try #indieweb http://www.rmendes.net/2015/i-can-say-facebookisdown-from-my-withknown-site-and-i (twitter.com/_/status/648586222722412544)
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@jordan_web Question for the #indieweb If we syndicate while a silo is down, does the post get buffered and then posted later? (twitter.com/_/status/648586009874010113)
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aaronpk the startup model being the road of venture funding, acquiring large numbers of users, rapid exponential growth, etc
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aaronpk good thing that's not the only way to have a successful business
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tantek aaronpk: there is no one "the" startup model. I've done one without venture funding, one with. Guess which one had a better (more profitable for the founders) exit?
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aaronpk heh yep
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aaronpk i suspect this may be the source of ben's frustration
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tantek this is good though: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/648581831210614784
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@benwerd Some startups capture value by providing access to a market or demographic via advertising. I think direct revenue is a more ethical route. (twitter.com/_/status/648581831210614784)
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aaronpk I've been listening to the Startup podcast, and they do a good job of illustrating the problems/challenges with the venture-backed startup model
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snarfed tweetstorms--
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Loqi tweetstorms has -1 karma
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snarfed blogposts++
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Loqi blogposts has 1 karma
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tantek snarfed: so true
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aaronpk haha yeah srsly just write a blog post
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snarfed which he does often
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snarfed funny
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aaronpk i think there's more cognitive overhead in writing a "blog post" whereas with tweet storms you only get one shot at writing each sentence
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tantek tweetstorms--
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Loqi tweetstorms has -2 karma
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snarfed yup. but the cognitive overhead often results in better content
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snarfed editing++
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Loqi editing has 1 karma
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aaronpk i'm just saying if you're gona tweetstorm, you could just tweetstorm into a blog post window and post it
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tantek !tell benwerd I sense there is more to this thread than I see here: http://werd.io/2015/once-upon-a-time-years-and-years-ago-i-used
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm and yet we can cite individual lines from his tweet storm here an ddiscuss them
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aaronpk fragmentions?
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tantek paragraph IDs?
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kylewm no Loqi support for that :p
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snarfed fisking--
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Loqi too much karma!
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snarfed damn usenet for encouraging it
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kylewm senses a joelonsoftware.com link coming soon
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snarfed lol kylewm knows me too well
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kylewm :D :D
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benwerd Yeah yeah yeah, I'll turn it into a blog post ;) It was going to just be a tweet but then I kept going.
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message 6 minutes ago: I sense there is more to this thread than I see here: http://werd.io/2015/once-upon-a-time-years-and-years-ago-i-used http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443470821746
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benwerd editorial planning--
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aaronpk :D
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tantek benwerd, OTOH, "was going to be just a note but then I kept going" seems like a reasonable Known feature request for status note UX ;)
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tantek s/status note/status update
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Loqi tantek meant to say: benwerd, OTOH, "was going to be just a note but then I kept going" seems like a reasonable Known feature request for status update UX ;)
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benwerd Definitely agree with that
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@jordan_web RT @itsericwoodward: Facebook down? If only someone had invented a decentralized method of sharing content... #IndieWeb @WithKnown (twitter.com/_/status/648589314654400513)
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@itsericwoodward Facebook down? If only someone had invented a decentralized method of sharing content... #IndieWeb @WithKnown (twitter.com/_/status/648588720795463680)
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kylewm benwerd: if it's a choice between writing in a less than perfect format and not writing, I think you know what we all prefer
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tantek kylewm: right - hence the UX should adapt to the human "less than perfect format", rather than vice versa!
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benwerd But as tantek pointed out, actually seeing it all in a stream on my site would be A+ good
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benwerd Rather than individual bits and bobs
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kylewm tantek++ yeah love that idea
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Loqi tantek has 243 karma
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tantek benwerd, I'm actually relieved to hear you say this: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/648580492019658753 - it sounds like enlightenment
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@benwerd Once upon a time, years and years ago, I used to believe you founded startups to build what you wanted to see in the world. I no longer do. (twitter.com/_/status/648580492019658753)
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benwerd It's been simmering for a while. I also completely agree with what aaronpk said before I joined the room, about venture funding not (thankfully) being the only route
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tantek I think it's more effective to blog, build open source, and communities to see what you want to see in the world.
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benwerd The big big big elephant in the room is that the two "free"s in open source - beer and speech - have been conflated, and we're finding that people are seeking open solutions out because of the price point
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benwerd Which obvs makes sustaining a business through revenue quite hard
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benwerd So other solutions are required :)
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tantek There's a class of thing between hobbie and startup, that's more like "speculative revenue attempt" that deserves its own name
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benwerd Yes
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tantek I think it's quite reasonable to start something as a hobbie (zero expected revenue), maybe transition (even just a part of) it to "speculative revenue source" where you expect some revenue but not enough to offset costs.
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benwerd Really that is the definition of a startup vs small business - you're trying things speculatively
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tantek And then if by some matter of luck or circumstance revenue or demand picks up faster than expected, it might be reasonable to transition (even just a part of) it to a "startup" where you're committing to a path to profitability.
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tantek or put in "negative reasoning", without a path to profitability, a startup is a speculative revenue source at best, and more likely just a hobbie.
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tantek to me the very framing "startup" implies you are starting something that is going to up, up in revenue, enough to offset costs = path to profitability
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tantek s/going to up/going to go up
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Loqi tantek meant to say: to me the very framing "startup" implies you are starting something that is going to go up, up in revenue, enough to offset costs = path to profitability
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tantek that being said, there are certainly lots of hobbie projects and speculative revenue sources that are receiving VC funding for who knows what reasons
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aaronpk interestingly, flickstagram.org has received almost enough money that it is break-even
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tantek didn't realize it had a way to do so!
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aaronpk me either
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tantek donationware?
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aaronpk just a little donation button
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aaronpk er, I mean, a "pay what you will" button (my tax attorney said to call it that)
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tantek sounds worth capturing in /business-models
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tantek since you have a real world example that is apparently demonstrating it
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aaronpk hah good point
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benwerd (Pay what you will is actually a really interesting way of doing it - I think testing that with Patreon or similar could be fun)
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tantek what is pay what you will
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pay what you will" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/103d
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aaronpk people have paid anywhere f rom $1 to $10 for flickstagram
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benwerd Meanwhile: https://medium.com/@andydoyle/medium-s-new-funding-round-48437c641e06
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tantek pay what you will is [[business-model]] based on a donation button or other [[UX]] that allows and encourages the user of a service to pay what they think the service is worth as a donation.
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kylewm do we have any idea how many people make enough to pay their rent on Patreon?
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loqi.me created /pay_what_you_will (+217) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-09-28/line/1443472063765 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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kylewm on Gittip I know it was like 1-3
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benwerd kylewm: I don't have stats but I imagine it tends towards 0
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tantek there you go aaronpk ^^^ feel free to expand with real world example(s)
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aaronpk i think patreon has more creative-type projects than software developers, so I suspect more
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kylewm oh yeah software developers on gittip were 0
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@tinokremer @robertdevilee of gewoon het #indieweb, vrijwel onmogelijk om down te brengen... (twitter.com/_/status/648593717964763136)
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aaronpk I wonder what would happen if I added a "pay what you will" button to ownyourgram
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aaronparecki.com edited /business-models (+195) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /negative_reasoning (+353) "examples with citations, see also" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /pay_what_you_will (+187) "add flickstagram" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /negative_reasoning (+4) "/* Examples */ g" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk: perhaps all such indieweb "free" services should have a pay what you will button
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aaronpk I see no reason why not!
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tantek lol
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tantek I wonder if there is some signal we can use to determine when to add such a pay what you will button
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tantek I mean besides "initial launch"
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tantek like - if someone says "I would pay for ..."
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tantek or if some number of people make positive statements about the service
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tantek positive statements can be used to make a short testimonials section on the service's home page
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tantek benwerd - TBH this one both strikes a chord with me and a sense of but wait ... exceptions: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/648588007570698240 in particular,
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@benwerd By making creative output - writing, music, software - free, we are transferring power to a handful of intellectual property owners. (twitter.com/_/status/648588007570698240)
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tantek the instructions for creating barcamps were published freely, and transferred power from a (smaller) handful of professional conference organizers to a much larger handful of independent conference organizers.
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tantek similarly, I think "free" (both as in beer/freedom) software has transferred power to many smaller players from fewer larger players
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tantek However I do struggle with figuring out what/when to attempt to charge for some creative output (e.g. writing, like a book, or speaking like at a conference) vs. blogging/speaking freely, or what mix / transition of the two.
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benwerd tantek: There are definitely huge, stonking exceptions. My entire rant is really inspired by a surprising number of people who want us to live in a post-capitalist society - which I'm theoretically on board with, but not at the expense of taking care of practical realities
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tantek.com edited /negative_reasoning (+51) "or" (view diff)
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tantek benwerd, so far, capitalist societies have provided more benefits for people (towards that mythical Star Trek future) than other forms.
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benwerd tantek: I don't disagree at all
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tantek e.g. compare worker rights, benefits, conditions in capitalist US vs. "communist" China
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tantek that's the easy / obvious one
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benwerd I completely agree, but I get a lot of criticism for doing so
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tantek benwerd, are any of those people who want us to live in a post-capitalist society actively working on building something towards it?
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tantek benwerd, you are a builder, you may ignore such criticism from non-builders so you can focus on building :)
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tantek or if you wish, you may respond to their criticisms with questions asking them what are they doing (creating, building) towards their desired post-capitalist society?
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tantek they'll either not respond, or you might turn a few from critics -> creatives, in which case, you've done them a huge favor
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tantek or if they continue criticizing without creating/building, then you may de-prioritize them, knowing that they are unlikely to have an impact by criticism alone
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KartikPrabhu don't criticise if you don't have a solution ?
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snarfed just as one data point, i don't plan to let people donate/pay what they will for bridgy anytime soon
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snarfed i consider my time, effort, and money (paying for hosting) all donations to indieweb
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snarfed i'm lucky that i have a good day job, of course)a
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@endi facebook is down? looks like my social site is doing ok. https://social.andrejstefanovski.com set up yours at https://withknown.com/ #known #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/648614703938314240)
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snarfed ...except that tweet isn't actually on his site :(
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aaronpk oops
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KartikPrabhu that's a weird thing to tweet
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rhiaro I made a similar mistake in the heat of the moment earlier ;) https://twitter.com/rhiaro/status/648582941388460032
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@rhiaro @emax #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/648582941388460032)
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snarfed rhiaro: i <3 https://github.com/snarfed/ownyourresponses , you might too :P
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snarfed (it's basically ownyourgram for @-replies favorites, RTs, FB likes, etc)
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rhiaro I use Quill+bridgy most of the time, just sometimes I forget and hit reply on twitter
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