#indiewebcamp 2015-09-06

2015-09-06 UTC
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kylewm aaronpk++ there are few things i like more than deleting code
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Loqi aaronpk has 956 karma
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tantek returns and catches up on logs
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tantek aaronpk, congrats on launching the stats / leaderboard on ownyourgram!
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tantek I'm wondering about the phrasing " 3168 photos imported by 49 users and counting! "
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aaronpk suggestions welcome
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aaronpk english is not my strong suit when I am in code mode
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tantek specifically "imported" sounds one-time batch-like, whereas it's much more cool than that!
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tantek ok
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kylewm 3168 grams owned
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aaronpk haha
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tantek hahaha that's what I said previously!
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tantek (might have been in #indiechat)
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kylewm probably a felony :)
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aaronpk i like it
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aaronpk i still want to include the number of users
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tantek aaronpk: um, ownyourgram posts videos too right?
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aaronpk yeah true
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tantek can you tell the difference?
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aaronpk i can, but am not currently
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tantek like maybe: 3168 'grams owned by 49 users on their own sites and counting!
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tantek sees kylewm is still cranking on deploying Bridgy improvements - wow.
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tantek kylewm++
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Loqi kylewm has 235 karma
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tantek ^^^ yeah a fibonacci!
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kylewm hahaha
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tantek wow so many things wrong with https://twitter.com/jsmarr/status/640293686815817728
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@jsmarr 8 years ago today, wow. Not clear we've made much progress since then. :/ https://twitter.com/jsmarr/status/248998142 (twitter.com/_/status/640293686815817728)
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tantek like: ship and use code on your own site, not manifestos about others' sites
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aaronpk kinda wanna reply with http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008
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tantek and did opensocialweb-org expire? it redirects to template-org
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tantek aaronpk: OMS that's so much better
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tantek as in, what do you mean by "we"? We #indiewebcamp have made tons of progress since: http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008
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tantek including 3 site/impl passing SWAT0
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tantek way to turn it around with a positive response aaronpk. you're approach is better.
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tantek s/you're/your
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@aaronpk @jsmarr Here's some progress! http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 Remember SWAT0? Some exciting stuff happening here, come join! (twitter.com/_/status/640316500000137216)
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Loqi tantek meant to say: way to turn it around with a positive response aaronpk. your approach is better.
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki commented '@jsmarr Here's some progress! http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 Remember SWAT0? Some exciting stuff happening here, come join!' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/09/05/1/indieweb)
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tantek yes the timeline does a pretty good job of speaking for itself with a summary of steady achievements over the years
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Loqi [mention] Christian Kruse wrote a post that linked to https://indiewebcamp.com https://webmention.io/notification/oS1gRzOL2LRbam_DwOmm7g
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tantek caught up on logs.
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aaronpk tantek: any feedback on proposed/in-progress changes to indienews?
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tantek I've never been a big user of such reddit-style aggregators / bookmarking places - so I'm not sure I'm a good person to ask
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tantek I like the idea of an indieweb planet however
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aaronpk yeah this is getting closer to an indieweb planet, except this is explicit sharing to it
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kylewm tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 236 karma
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tantek like planet.indiewebcamp.com that was like a blog that subscribed to everyone in /irc-people, and then reblogged anything that contained "indieweb" or "indie web"
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tantek I'm too lazy for the explicit sharing
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aaronpk yeah I want to do the real planet too
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tantek that's the problem, but I'd gladly read an aggregation of everyone's posts that mentioned indie web
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aaronpk i guess i'm imagining IndieNews as more of an announcement-style aggregator
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aaronpk for example kylewm wanted to announce the new bridgy feature
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aaronpk and i've posted things there when I launch new things
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tantek which he did hashtag #indieweb
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tantek so that's the "announcement"
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kylewm snarfed had mentioned that we shouldhave a bridgy blog for stuff like that
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tantek just need to get planet.indiewebcamp.com to use those posts
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aaronpk yeah except those would be quickly drowned out by non-announcement posts
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kylewm and i was thinking it would be cool to posse to that directly
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tantek heck, a hashtag.indiewebcamp.com/indieweb would be cool too
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aaronpk anyway I still like the idea of a traditional planet
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tantek which was just a really dumb filter of posts from indieweb sites with particular tags
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tantek I don't believe "quickly drowned out by non-announcement posts"
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tantek with just a search on "indieweb" or "indie web"
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tantek we don't see that many tweets of that drowning us here
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tantek the greater problem is *missing* announcement like posts because it's an extra step (or several) to explicitly cross-post to announce
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tantek fewersteps++
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Loqi fewersteps has 1 karma
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tantek https://kylewm.com/2015/09/https-www-brid-gy-update-launched-support-for-backfeeding is hashtagged with #indieweb
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tantek also, subscribing to *only* sites in /irc-people I think is going to be even higher signal-to-noise than the twitter searches!
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tantek so I REALLY DO NOT BELIEVE "quickly drowned out"
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aaronpk here's an example, of the first page of my own posts tagged #indieweb, I only want 10 of the 20 to go to indienews
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indieweb
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@kevinmarks RT @aaronpk: @jsmarr Here's some progress! http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 Remember SWAT0? Some exciting stuff happening here, come join! (twitter.com/_/status/640320570177941504)
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Loqi [mention] Ryan Barrett liked a post that linked to a photo: "timeline" http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 https://webmention.io/notification/Rd5KfdiwmYZxiOpnAvbfuw
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Loqi [mention] Kevin Marks reposted a post that linked to a photo: "timeline" http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 https://webmention.io/notification/svDKUF-FB0fzQFDP9AX4gg
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aaronpk i literally just counted them out, 10 of them I would want to end up on indienews, the other 10 not
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aaronpk and of those 10, 6 are events
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tantek the point is not whether you would want them to - but would readers of indienews want them to
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tantek and how many are replies?
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aaronpk 5
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tantek drop the replies and it looks great
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aaronpk there are also bookmarks which I don't always want to go to indienews but sometimes do
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tantek which makes sense
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aaronpk (i've actually submitted a bookmark to indienews as a way to get someone else's post there)
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tantek aaronpk - I think if you explicitly tag a bookmark #indieweb it makes sense that that's a signal you want it to go to indienews
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tantek I think this is the good-enough 80% solution - all posts except replies
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aaronpk my own personal use of tagging things on my site is different from my intent to syndicate it
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tantek but anyone could be reposting!
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tantek regardless of your intent
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tantek that's my point
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aaronpk sure, but that means someoen else thought there was value
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tantek exactly - I'm saying that even if you do not have the intent, *I* am saying those have value
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tantek (and I bet others see value in those posts of yours too)
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tantek if it gets too noisy with bookmarks/faves/repost, we can cluster those and present them in smaller ways in a composite feed
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aaronpk you're asking me to do a lot of work :P
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tantek while providing more screen space to notes, articles, events (all of which are worthy as announcements)
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tantek wait what?
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tantek you already have a reader ;)
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tantek isn't this a fork of monocle without login?
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aaronpk yeah kinda
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tantek I'm saying that's more worth doing and having something with content from day 1, than making everyone forever have to take explicit steps for the aggregation
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kylewm does anybody read planets? i feel like up/down vote sites or manually curated sites get a lot more eyeballs
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aaronpk you could also subscribe to the planet in a reader as a shortcut for subscribing to everyone's individual blogs
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tantek kylewm: people read planet mozilla for sure
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kylewm has considered subscribing to indieweb.thatmustbe.us
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aaronpk kylewm: lol
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aaronpk that would be..interesting
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kylewm non-deterministic planet :)
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tantek that sounds kind of amazing
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tantek indieweb roulette
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KevinMarks if it gets too noisy you could turn on the voting again
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KevinMarks or rank by reposts/likes
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tantek ^^^ that
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aaronpk that's a lot more complicated because then do you switch back to a non-time-ordered home page? or things only hit the home page after N reposts/likes?
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tantek thus no need to ever webmention anything to indie planet - if you like a post - you go like it directly
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tantek no threshold
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tantek time ordered within each # of likes+reposts total
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tantek posts expire after a month (just made that up)
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aaronpk yeah I'm not keen on adding back local upvoting, i'd rather people post likes on their own sites
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tantek exactly
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KevinMarks it's the new vs top thing -slashdot, reddit, digg et al
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aaronpk eh, I just took that out
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KevinMarks right, you only need it if you have too many stories
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kylewm interesting implementation detail on reddit, the value of one upvote is always increasing, so there's not balancing of newness vs. upvotes
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aaronpk waves goodbye to more code
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aaronpk k i think it's time to launch these updates
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aaronpk and everything blew up
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aaronpk and back
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aaronpk neat, now you can subscribe to http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ in Woodwind and it actually makes sense
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Loqi [mention] Ben Werdmüller wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com https://webmention.io/notification/X3QLZDGll75MDL614pjH_g
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KartikPrabhu kylewm++ for flickr support! would Publishing be possible too?
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Loqi kylewm has 236 karma
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aaronpk oboy. anybody know a good i18n library for php?
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aaronpk I like the way the cakephp one looks, but it seem to rely on being in a cake project
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@harryhalpin RT @aaronpk: @jsmarr Here's some progress! http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 Remember SWAT0? Some exciting stuff happening here, come join! (twitter.com/_/status/640362800129294336)
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Loqi [mention] Aaron Parecki wrote a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark https://webmention.io/notification/POHS_5k-87wEBxO-YPtoqQ
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: definitely would be possible, i didn't do anything with publishing yet, but flickr's api is pretty good
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KartikPrabhu neat. I have a friend who posts exclusively to Flickr for photos. He might switch to indieweb if Flickr publishing works
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aaronpk aaand soon indienews will be launched in german too
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aaronpk https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/6
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aaronpk other languages are welcome :)
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@jordan_web @benwerd Great post, but don't give up on the #indieweb it is still a viable market if we can sell the concept to Internet/web people (twitter.com/_/status/640417723885985792)
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@kevinmarks “The web is not a platform. The web is a continuum. To treat the web as a platform is a category error.” http://adactio.com/articles/9465 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/640418485055565824)
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Loqi [mention] harryhalpin reposted a post that linked to a photo: "timeline" http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 https://webmention.io/notification/D4PUAhr_nNy7eUufji-KrA
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Loqi [mention] Pelle Wessman liked a post that linked to a photo: "timeline" http://indiewebcamp.com/timeline#2008 https://webmention.io/notification/XlfYWra3tMh8ANYeufKO9w
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Zegnat Good morning IndieWeb :)
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@InramsT Piwik Is An IndieWeb Alternative To Google Analytics - http://www.inramstechnology.com/piwik-is-an-indieweb-alternative-to-google-analytics/ (twitter.com/_/status/640463921837572097)
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myfreeweb wait, bridgy publish returns JSON with the "url" field, but indienews returns it with the "href" field? :(
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myfreeweb we need a standard for webmention-to-syndication, er, Syndication by Reference
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myfreeweb just a tiny standard that says "synchronously processed webmention, returns JSON with the 'url' field"
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Zegnat what is syndication by reference?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "syndication by reference" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/102V
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voxpelli "synchronously processed webmention" – oh dear :P
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voxpelli just removed the last piece of sync-processing from my endpoint
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voxpelli haven't heard of this "webmention-to-syndication" thing – wiki-reference?
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Zegnat i don't know what myfreeweb was refering to either, but then again I do not use bridgy for anything
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cjk101010 Hi. Anyone present who is using brid.gy on a HTTPS only domain which requires SNI?
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cjk101010 It seems that it doesn’t support SNI (the HTTP libraries of brid.gy itself, not the part talking to brid.gy), is there a way around that?
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voxpelli cjk101010: you can always try opening an issue at the project GitHub if you get no response here
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cjk101010 ok, will do. thanks.
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Zegnat I expect there is no way around it. If a website requires technology X to access it, and the client doesn’t implement technology X, it is stuck. If you control the website, maybe allow bridgy to connect through HTTP?
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cjk101010 Zegnat: hat the idea myself as well, but this would be a step backward, IMHO. I’m a huge fan of the encrypt everything movement. And IMHO all modern HTTP libraries should support SNI -.-
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cjk101010 but yeah, I think this will be the only possible way…
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voxpelli Just finished the last few missing pieces in getting Salmention support into my endpoint – can now both receive and send – but is still a bit too unrefined to let it out live
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voxpelli cjk101010: Brid.gy uses Python on App Engine so if you're using standard tech it should be possible for them to support. Open a bug report/feature request :)
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voxpelli cjk101010: this is the place: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues
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voxpelli and you've already opened one I see :)
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cjk101010 hehe
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cjk101010 yeah :)
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cjk101010 I considered SNI as ”žstandard tech“ for years. But it seems that I am misstaken.
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Zegnat I agree with the encrypt everything, cjk101010. Been looking into getting HTTPS going myself, and my hosting uses SNI. They specifically talk about it on their wiki to make sure all users understand what is going on, which IMHO shouldn’t be neccessary. SNI should have been worked out years ago.
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cjk101010 +1
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Zegnat https://wiki.uberspace.de/webserver:https#hintergruendesni
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voxpelli hardest part about Salmentions right now: How to reduce the amount of outgoing requests by not fetching and pinging each and every time something might have happened – but only when it's reasonable for somehting to have happened
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voxpelli especially for a standalone endpoint such as mine – I know nothing about the state of anything outside of my endpoint unless I'm pinged or I fetch the info myself
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Zegnat If you get a mention from a page that already sent one before, you refetch them an check for changes, including if any new comments have been added. That’s all you need to do, right? If there are new comments, add them to the thread on your page and resend your own webmentions to notify people you changed your page.
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Zegnat You should already be accepting webmentions-for-changes, I think, so the only new thing Salmentions introduces is the updating of your page and resending of your mentions
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Loqi yea
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Zegnat Thank you Loqi, have a cookie!
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Loqi :)
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voxpelli Zegnat: yeah, that's one part, checking the source for a diff – but then I also need to check if the target has changed
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Zegnat The target? Isn’t the target just you?
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voxpelli Zegnat: nope, beauty of standalone endpoint
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voxpelli a target can be any registered website and they don't notify me when then start/stop mentioning a page
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Zegnat ah, your endpoint is doing the works for several websites? Yeah, that complicates things.
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voxpelli and right now I fetch the actual source of all comments, which can take a while, so I need to ensure that I don't send a ping for each and every comment I look up successfully
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Zegnat I think aaronpk also fetches source-document-per-comment, that seems to be best practice. But I can see how salmentions are hard to do when the webmention-endpoint isn’t hardwired to the website
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voxpelli also somewhat hard to know if the comment source has changed if only indicator is what data the site that included it has used to represent it – it might be using much less data than I do
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voxpelli but I guess – if the site sent a ping, it did so because some of the data included in the presentation has changed
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Zegnat Yeah, I would assume that a site sends a mention when they have updated something. In the case of a comments list, I guess you check their timestamps? Assuming people are including those.
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voxpelli keeping notes of what is left @ https://github.com/voxpelli/webpage-webmentions/issues/21 :)
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voxpelli Zegnat: I would probably just do a full diff of the parsed Microformats-objekt and wishing that no temporary data has been added to it + combining that with some "if-modified-since" / "etag" detection to get even better signals from supporting servers
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voxpelli worst case scenario: Some temporary data like a token gets into a dance with a circular WebMention ping chain and they continue to ping each other infinitely because they always believe something new has been discovered. Will have to test to ensure that doesn't happen
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voxpelli Very close to be able to act as player A and B in SWAT0 now then: http://indiewebcamp.com/SWAT0
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aaronpk voxpelli: http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-brainstorming this is basicaly how bridgy publish works, and now also indienews
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voxpelli interesting
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[aaronpk] I thought Bridgy supported SNI domains?
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[aaronpk] myfreeweb: I'm happy to change the key that indie news returns the URL in, but it's also in the HTTP Location header which is more stable
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myfreeweb [aaronpk]: yeah, Location is great! better than JSON or any format. Bridgy Publish should do the same
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snarfed myfreeweb: sure! happy to. feel free to file an issue!
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snarfed re SNI, it's for publish, but agreed, i thought it did too. i'll look eventually
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snarfed myfreeweb: or even better, feel free to jump in and add it! should be very easy. the readme has pretty complete setup instructions
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myfreeweb haha, I used Python App Engine, like, five years ago
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Loqi hehe
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snarfed nice!
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kylewm snarfed: I thought maybe I broke SNI when I deployed yesterday, but my virtualenv looks good/correct
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snarfed kylewm: yeah, good instinct, but i expect you're right
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snarfed we should ask him if it's ever worked for him
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snarfed i'm guessing now
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snarfed er no
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Loqi yea
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snarfed in other news, bridgy#51 is killing me
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snarfed so complimacated
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snarfed just wanna go shopping
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snarfed oh btw kylewm let me know if you want to poke at cutting new o-d/granary packages at some point
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snarfed i think i added your pypi user right but not sure
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kylewm snarfed: oh yeah, happy to upload packages
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snarfed oh actually we need to update docs first
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kylewm are you using pandoc to generate README.rst from README.md?
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snarfed definitely not :duncecap:
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kylewm oh, that's ok, it looks like different info for different audiences
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snarfed looks like no changes to o-d's readme and minimal to granary's
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snarfed (needed)
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aaronpk voxpelli: Jeena: would either of you like to contribute a non-english translation as well? https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/6
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snarfed heh. amusing irony that brid.gy itself doesn't support webmentions
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voxpelli aaronpk: why not parse language from site rather than have separate endpoint?
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aaronpk the goal is to have separate feeds of content
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aaronpk and I don't want to prevent someone from submitting an english post to the german site
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voxpelli aaronpk: here's a translation: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/304233/sv.po
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voxpelli aaronpk: I don't really see different languages as different feeds – just that some people have some language barriers that make some content less interesting for them and hence they might want to filter that
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aaronpk awesome!! thanks
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voxpelli (then again: when it comes to Sweden and Germany in regards to such things there's a _very_ different relation to international content between us)
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myfreeweb aaronpk: the text-overflow:ellipsis looks weird on phone screens https://imgur.com/ETKBspb looks like there's a fixed width blank thing to the right of it
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aaronpk myfreeweb: thanks, i'll take a look
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myfreeweb I don't think it's appropriate here at all, long titles should be fully readable
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voxpelli aaronpk: btw, have you considered syndicating to IndieNews through "people tagging" as "hash tagging" – a "u-category" that links to the relevant feed?
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snarfed myfreeweb: that was fast, thanks! https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/pull/463
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aaronpk voxpelli: that would work as is
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myfreeweb snarfed: I didn't actually test it :D that's an obvious one line patch
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voxpelli I would probably opt for that in my posts, feels more like a categorization rather than a syndication like Twitter, Instagram
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aaronpk oh no you're right, i am explicitly looking for u-syndication. that'd be an easy change tho. will consier
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aaronpk myfreeweb: problem is some of the titles are reaaaaallly long, like when there is no title, just the implied p-name for notes
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voxpelli and it would automatically receive Salmentions in the same way as people-tags do
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myfreeweb aaronpk: trim it on the server side to, like, 256 characters or something, not to one line
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voxpelli (my endpoint pings all u-category with Salmention pings)
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voxpelli (when my Salmention pinging is live, not yet fully ready)
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voxpelli aaronpk: want an issue for it?
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aaronpk sure
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@benjaminparry Preparation done. I now have a home for links (bookmarks) and thoughts (Tweets) on my own website. http://benjamin.parry.is/collecting/thoughts/1508262029-jekyll-collections-are-hard/ @IndieWebCampUK (twitter.com/_/status/640553961272045568)
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voxpelli aaronpk: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/issues/13
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voxpelli aaronpk: threw another issue your way – but may be that I take a stab at it myself eventually as well as it's a PHP-project – just wanted to make a note of it in public :)
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aaronpk cool!
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voxpelli aaronpk: and one mistake in the translation: https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieNews/commit/eadfb2a80cec0041fb3d8ccb01818ef4d4cc769e#commitcomment-13086807 Poedit didn't save it all it seems :P
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@voxpelli @benjaminparry Same here – that and automatic WebMention sending (twitter.com/_/status/640564902097223680)
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snarfed myfreeweb++ for ramping up and contributing to bridgy so fast
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Loqi myfreeweb has 6 karma
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@kevinmarks @nelson https://indieauth.com/ implements OpenID compatibility, so you can use it with your own site (twitter.com/_/status/640572113988943872)
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KartikPrabhu Zegnat: bridgy does allow HTTPS connections and SNI
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KartikPrabhu is reading backlogs
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@myfreeweb @kylewmahan remotestorage.io looks like a solution. It’s an actual IETF draft! Might even work with IndieAuth… (https://unrelenting.technology/replies/2015-09-06-19-10-57) (twitter.com/_/status/640603169341358080)
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myfreeweb the async idea for Syndicate by Reference looks weird
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myfreeweb including the callback param doesn't require async handling? okay. but then the syndication target MAY use async if it wants? even if there's no callback provided?
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notenoughneon.com edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+0) "fix link" (view diff)
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kylewm what should an image proxy do with an "application/octet-stream"
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kylewm atmos/camo by default returns a 404
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KartikPrabhu Bad Request?
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KevinMarks on octet/stream is usually an unconfigured image type
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kylewm KevinMarks: that's true, camo does not proxy those images though, so they show up as 404s in woodwind
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KevinMarks yay, web actionreply worked with webaction hero toolbelt!
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KevinMarks http://svgur.com/s/1d
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snarfed KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 161 karma
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KevinMarks for tweeted ones to work via bridgy, would I need to have made a POSSE tweet? OR is that cahging wiht the #51 work?
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snarfed sorry, i don't have quite enough context to follow that
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snarfed (i don't really know much about web actions)
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KevinMarks without the toolbelt I have a twitter button
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KevinMarks which should create a tweet with the link
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KevinMarks but that won't be sent back unless I have POSSE'd the original?
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snarfed ok. so you're asking will bridgy backfeed responses?
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snarfed right now it will because it's promiscuous
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snarfed after #51 it's still undetermined, but probably we'll backfeed replies but not faves/reposts
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snarfed (if we determine it's a mention and not a POSSE)
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KevinMarks so if someone other than me clicks the twitter button their response will show up?
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KevinMarks hm, bridgy missing some faces from FB here: http://svgur.com/s/1x ? or are they just taking ages to load?
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KevinMarks hm, when I refresh to measure it they showed up
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[snarfed] KevinMarks: other people is https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/456, will happen after #51
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GWG I keep wanting to cache those locally
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KevinMarks talking of caching, just added 304 etag/last-modified support on the way out for hovercards too, so you cna embed them multiple times on page without thrashing my server
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KevinMarks eg http://www.unmung.com/multitest