#indiewebcamp 2015-08-04

2015-08-04 UTC
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@rtanglao RT @t: Seeing tweets re #foocamp “alphas”. Alpha enough to #ownyourdata? Or just Betas to Silos? Makers, make thy #indieweb. (ttk.me t4cU3) (twitter.com/_/status/628358471923007488)
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Loqi [mention] https://mshook.withknown.com/2015/via-kevinmarks-distributed-silo-social-complicated-comment-withknown-protocol-wishlist posted 'https://indiewebcamp.com/ #via #kevinmarks #distributed #silo #social #complicated #comment #withknown #protocol #wishlist #critique #alter...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/
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KevinMarks_ lag, loqi?
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Loqi yeah!
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KevinMarks_ is this a conversation about wordpress? https://twitter.com/rob_neu/status/628352890927628288
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@rob_neu @ryanolson Sort of. It's a different structured markup format. http://programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/166612/schema-org-vs-microformats I personally would avoid using both. (twitter.com/_/status/628352890927628288)
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GWG KevinMarks_: Yes, it is
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KevinMarks_ so they're ripping out mf1?
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GWG Justin Tadlock, whom they reference, is a long standing WordPress developer
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GWG They are referring to Hybrid Core, which is a theme framework
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Sorry, a webmentions question… no matter how or where I try db:migrate, it ALWAYS creates the development db file. Driving me 😜! (twitter.com/_/status/628372600939520000)
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GWG So, the theme developer is advocating removing mf1 in favor of scehma.org in their theme.
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GWG WordPress doesn't support microdata or mf2, and their implementation of mf1 is off.
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KevinMarks_ not terribly off
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GWG KevinMarks_: Still better than nothing, but still...
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KevinMarks_ so should we reach out to these HC devs
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GWG What is the sales pitch?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "sales pitch" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100y
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aaronpk the sales pitch is /why
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loqi.me created /sales_pitch (+16) "prompted by GWG https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-08-03/line/1438651044923 and dfn added by aaronpk" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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GWG I haven't figured out what to tell people who use WordPress to build corporate sites.
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KevinMarks_ is that what Hybrid Core is for?
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GWG It's a theme framework. It adds features to a theme.
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GWG Rob_neu works for WPSiteCare
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GWG @thatryan has a website he isn't maintaining, might be more promising.
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@dshanske @ryanolson @rob_neu Microformats is still alive and well, and doing a lot of interesting things. Check out http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/628376809265102848)
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GWG There
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bear interesting - for some sites I will soon have a full year of microformat data gathered - sept 23rd is when I started
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aaronpk that was fast
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aaronpk this might be the craziest post i've made on my site http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/08/03/5/
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aaronpk it has an image, an embedded soundcloud player (which i would have done as an audio tag if it were possible with my current setup) and is posse'd to twitter and facebook
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aaronpk great example of why explicit post types are bad
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KartikPrabhu nice
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: did you author that with Quill?
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aaronpk no, it was a very hacky process of first doing a regular post with quill, then slowly editing it with my web interface and scp'ing files to my server
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KartikPrabhu yeah. that's the thing micropub needs to figure out. How to post generic posts like that
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aaronpk if I could figure out a good client interface, that is totally possible with the new micropub spec
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aaronpk the challenge is really the UI tho
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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GWG aaronpk: New Micropub spec?
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aaronpk s/new/latest
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GWG Nothing changed this week, did it?
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aaronpk no lol
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aaronpk i'm just really behind on launching the new version of my site
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KartikPrabhu should catch up on new micropub. My endpoint is probably really out of date
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bear my endpoint is totally out of date
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bear quill just politely stuck it's tongue out when I tried to post to mine
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aaronpk aw really? it's not doing anything fancy
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bear oh, it was polite in saying that my site was coughing up 500's
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aaronpk except you know, sending html with images in data uris :P
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@jimpick @bmann A blog post is coming. S3 + Cloudfront. I've got some ideas for the publishing end of it. Very indieweb. :-) (twitter.com/_/status/628405612133548032)
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Loqi [bridgy] Rob Neu replied '@dshanske @ryanolson Eh, IMO they're even more confusing than schema.org which is saying something.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/rob_neu/status/628378592724975617)
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GWG Sigh
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wagle just out of curiosity: how is octopress for microformat2 support?
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GWG No idea
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KevinMarks_ you could use autolink for the URLs
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KevinMarks_ tantek's js one client side or our python one server side
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@Shoq .@h0d3r @dweinberger @zeynep Some saw the silo-based "TV-web" coming. Tantek Çelik & @kevinmarks certainly did. Hence, @indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/628431028495994880)
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@kevinmarks @infocloud @dweinberger @Shoq @film_girl that reminds me, I need to respond to David's APIs post, as it missed the #indieweb view (twitter.com/_/status/628431757709213696)
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Loqi [bridgy] Kevin Marks replied '@rob_neu @dshanske @ryanolson happy to lift confusion if you are interested. the microformats2 markup is simpler: kevinmarks.com/microforma...' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/628429345648832512)
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wagle hmm.. ok, i'll stick with wrdprss untul i understand mf2
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wagle .. and until I can type
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voxpelli wagle: Octopress, just like Jekyll, doesn't really come with too much HTML out of the box, does it? So it's really up to you to make the HTML in the way that you want? :)
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voxpelli unless you can find someone that has a basic theme you can fork and base your site on
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voxpelli for Jekyll there are a couple of themes one can take some inspiration from
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@AlexKKearney I think I have the mechanics of webementions down. I still need to do more testing and make the formatting readable.… http://kongaloosh.com/e/2015/8/4/i-guess-i-have-the-mechanical-aspects-of-webmentions-in-place (twitter.com/_/status/628491535361908736)
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wagle voxpelli: no idea, its all new to me
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wagle just want to get something working the easiest way possible, then will get fancy
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@lifeinchords What is monoculture, in software? https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture (twitter.com/_/status/628499697490108416)
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@makeparallels RT @lifeinchords: What is monoculture, in software? https://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture (twitter.com/_/status/628499732403519488)
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voxpelli wagle: I would suggest starting with Jekyll instead, more resources around that
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voxpelli I would have hoped that I could say that my site would be an easy reference for such an IndieWeb-site, but unfortunately it isn't
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voxpelli You can still check the code though: https://github.com/voxpelli/voxpelli.github.com
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wagle voxpelli: ok..
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wagle my plan now is to get wordpress going, then think about switching to octopress.. need latex and graphviz
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voxpelli wagle: also, http://indiewebify.me/ is a good checklist for what one may want to look at when indiewebifying once site
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wagle i'd rather master ruby than php.. 8)
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wagle right.. just starting on that
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wagle where i'm at is trying t mf2-ify 2010 theme, or hack sempress to stop squandering vertical whitespace, or flesh out a mf2_s instanve, or wordress-uf2-ify 2010
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petermolnar wagle, http://withknown.com
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petermolnar you can install it as well, see http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/install/
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wagle cool
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petermolnar but it's PHP :P
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wagle heh
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petermolnar on the other hand, indie-ready out of the box
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@jgarber @codepo8 Using `<template>` for webmentions (comments, shares, etc.) on my posts: http://sixtwothree.org/posts/designing-with-progressive-enhancement (twitter.com/_/status/628514616381976576)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Getting webmentions to appear in the JSON (think I need to use verify tool before they show, but that’s throwing an error as well!) (twitter.com/_/status/628519192380243968)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber (The error: ‘SQLite3::SQLException: no such table: webmentions: …’) (twitter.com/_/status/628519875632345088)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /Flickr (+181) "/* atomicules */" (view diff)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Basically, after I run the verify script, the app can no longer find db records for each webmention. (twitter.com/_/status/628535678813515776)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Okay, got tux running and verifying, but results with `… verified_at: nil, webmention_type: nil` – this isn’t right, is it? (twitter.com/_/status/628535041983926272)
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atomicules.co.uk edited /Pinboard (+796) "Add indieweb examples and known issues" (view diff)
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@jgarber @paulrobertlloyd are there any webmentions left in the db after verify? Could be they’re unverifiable and are deleted. (twitter.com/_/status/628541582061502466)
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@n8fr8 @dosch Well, my wordpress install is still my homebase, then repost on diaspora, medium and readfold... I need #indieweb tools to automate! (twitter.com/_/status/628542429973618688)
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Jeena nice fuer die zeit in Portland bekomme ich 2900 eur extra
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Jeena oh wrong channel again ;) sorry
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voxpelli I now have a page that lists all mentions of me and my articles: http://voxpelli.com/mentions/ Similar to Twitter's
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voxpelli Last tweak was to ensure that the mentions actually mentioned what they were a mention of
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LanceyWork that's neat!
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LanceyWork voxpelli++
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Loqi voxpelli has 37 karma
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Was curl-ing a tweet, guess that only works if tweet is mentioned via Bridgy? Also: HTTPS for webmention server is not a good idea! (twitter.com/_/status/628549381768237056)
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raumzeit good afternoon
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LanceyWork good morning
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@Shoq .@zeynep Indieweb envisions those political blogs living on private sites, but mirrored by the big silos at will. https://medium.com/message/the-web-of-relationships-we-have-to-save-7f337de03e34 (twitter.com/_/status/628559767741579264)
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@tinokremer Dat krijg je met walled garden silos als #facebook #indieweb: http://www.bnr.nl/cookie.html?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bnr.nl%2Fradio%2Fbnr-internet-vandaag%2F148782-1508%2Fvlogger-facebook-video-steelt-liegt-en-speelt-vals https://stream.tinokremer.nl/2015/dat-krijg-je-met-walled-garden-silos-als-facebook-indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/628588456659288064)
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kylewm made a small UX improvement to woodwind https://kylewm.com/2015/08/updated-woodwind-to-preselect-syndication-targets
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kylewm again stymied by not fetching and parsing each permalink individually
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Anyway, progress: http://webmention.paulrobertlloyd.com/webmentions (twitter.com/_/status/628617591716712449)
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@damienjoyce @ricmac @Joe_Wegner This is also something that @kevinmarks has been advocating for sometime with #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/628622599904473088)
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@kevinmarks @damienjoyce @ricmac @Joe_Wegner write on your own site, POSSE to medium - I do that. Or download from medium and post that too. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/628623069876072448)
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@kevinmarks @Joe_Wegner @damienjoyce @ricmac Post on Own Site, Share Elsewhere http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (twitter.com/_/status/628623660211777536)
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aaronpk kylewm: are you considering fetching each permalink then?
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aaronpk you'd also be able to show comment threads that way
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@jgarber @paulrobertlloyd You may want to look at the verification methods in `models/webmention.rb` and make sure they work with your domain. (twitter.com/_/status/628625491084341248)
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@paulrobertlloyd @jgarber Does this look right? https://github.com/paulrobertlloyd/webmention.paulrobertlloyd.com/blob/master/app/models/webmention.rb (twitter.com/_/status/628626886441205760)
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kylewm aaronpk: i want to put that off as long as i can...
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aaronpk heh why?
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@jgarber @paulrobertlloyd I think so, yeah. It assumes HTTPS and no “www” in incoming webmentions. As long as that’s okay, then 👍🏻. (twitter.com/_/status/628627443650162689)
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@jgarber @paulrobertlloyd I forget how “internal” webmentions will be verified, though. I tend to link to my own posts with relative URLs. (twitter.com/_/status/628627800845590528)
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kylewm aaronpk: extra bandwidth/processing? + there are some feeds like from granary that I don't want to hammer because of API restrictions
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kylewm and because it wouldn't give me any extra data
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aaronpk hm yeah
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@rascul3 Joining the #indieweb POSSE. (twitter.com/_/status/628629445759254528)
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rascul yay!
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Loqi giggles
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bear rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 31 karma
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gRegorLove kylewm: Woodwind appears to duplicate each post in this feed in the stream, but the "more from this feed" view shows just one copy: http://www.slate.com/blogs/atlas_obscura.fulltext.all.rss
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gRegorLove subscription #444
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ben_thatmustbeme this convo should happen here not in a backchannel LanceyWork, KevinMarks_
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ben_thatmustbeme et al
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LanceyWork i think if a favorite is for your own sake, then it's more like a bookmark
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@tinokremer Yes, it's nice to own your content. #indieweb ftw! https://medium.com/@joe_wegner/why-i-dont-write-for-medium-c7cc156bc5d9 https://stream.tinokremer.nl/2015/yes-its-nice-to-own-your-content-indieweb-ftw-joe_wegnerwhy-i-dont-write-for-medium-c7cc156bc5d9 (twitter.com/_/status/628645329672511489)
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ben_thatmustbeme <LanceyWork> sometimes i wish there was a standard for u-hate-of
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ben_thatmustbeme <ben_thatmustbeme> u-dislike-of maybe
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ben_thatmustbeme <aaronpk> go for it
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ben_thatmustbeme <LanceyWork> honestly i'd rather we have u-reaction-to or something
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ben_thatmustbeme <LanceyWork> similar to slack's reactions where you can just supply any emoji as a response
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ben_thatmustbeme <LanceyWork> that'd give us the gambit from u-like-of to u-dislike-of to u-egg-of
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ben_thatmustbeme to fill people in
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ehlovader
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kevinmarks.com edited /favorite (+153) "/* Differences From Like */" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu u-reaction-to won't give us the gambit. it will only make the distinctions meld into each other
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ehlovader always wonder what znc is doing when I have channels like this that I lurk in appear out of no where
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KartikPrabhu I have asked about "dislike" before, but no one seems to be publishing them
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KevinMarks_ we have a like/favorite distinction, partly based on heart vs star nuance
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ehlovader sorry for the off topic revelation
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: does any one use both?
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ben_thatmustbeme i should start publishing dislikes
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KevinMarks_ google reader used to
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Loqi I agree
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LanceyWork the problem with dislikes is then we make likes polarizing as well
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KartikPrabhu i mean publish them
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ben_thatmustbeme what, heart and star?
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ben_thatmustbeme lucky charms has both
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KevinMarks_ http://www.quora.com/What-is-difference-between-star-and-like-in-google-reader
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KartikPrabhu a neutral reaction is no reaction
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KevinMarks_ airbnb switched form star to heart
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ben_thatmustbeme its really just a general "i support / agree with THIS"
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ben_thatmustbeme same as many times a "this"
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KevinMarks_ b=vote links had 3 states - vote-for vote-against vote-abstain
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ben_thatmustbeme what is this?
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Loqi This. (AKA THIS. or This: or THIS:) is type of quotation post similar in meaning to a combined like & repost where the text "This." is stated on a line by itself after the quotation, or the text "This:" is stated before a quotation or URL to express a strong affirmation or agreement with the referenced quotation or article https://indiewebcamp.com/this
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KevinMarks_ it started as a way to link to things without giving them pagerank
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KartikPrabhu which is what "like" is
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KevinMarks_ but rel-nofollow took over that (as vote-abstain equiv)
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KartikPrabhu making things too general does not help
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KartikPrabhu see w3c annotations stuff
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KevinMarks_ and pagerank doesn't converge if you allow negative votes, so they were never adopted
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ben_thatmustbeme i have been in favor of a general response-to which would generalize polling and events to being similar
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ben_thatmustbeme giving the event poster the ability to set various possible responses
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KevinMarks_ the slack implementation is very interesting here
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ben_thatmustbeme like "attending-remotely"
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KartikPrabhu sounds like a RSVP "yes" with content or something
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KartikPrabhu if I do publish a u-reaction-of, it seems entirely meaningless. "reaction good" or "reaction bad" or what?
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KartikPrabhu how is the consumer supposed to know
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: "attending with guest" "attending after party" etc
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KevinMarks_ as it enable multiple responses, but encourages convergence by making 'me too' a single click
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ben_thatmustbeme give the person creating the event / poll the ability to list possible values
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks_: that would be great if everyone had indieconfig working well
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ben_thatmustbeme and mp clients supported it
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KevinMarks_ so the indie equivalent would be an indieconfig link
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KevinMarks_ well, how we get things supported is by having good use cases and implementing them
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KevinMarks_ *and indeiaction link
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LanceyWork i think the ability to agree with an existing response is beyond the immediate scope of reactions
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KartikPrabhu in event case, it mean RSVP can have more properties not a very broad an general "reaction"
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KartikPrabhu can I react to an event with "bloop"
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LanceyWork the first step should be defining what a reaction is
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KartikPrabhu what is reaction?
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Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/reaction
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KevinMarks_ hm, so is an author supplied one a mood then?
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KartikPrabhu LanceyWork: first step is "what is reaction to be used for?"
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LanceyWork same thing as a like, except it conveys more detail about how the liker feels
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KevinMarks_ is a reaction a mood+ a reply-to ?
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KartikPrabhu if it is a generic response, how is it different from a mention. what is the consumer supposed to interpret "u-reaction-of"
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KartikPrabhu LanceyWork: why not use reply-to and convey your mood in the reply text
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KevinMarks_ reaction of?
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KartikPrabhu what's the possible range of "moods/feels" ?
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KartikPrabhu is "bloop" a possible value?
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voxpelli if it's a mood then why can't eg. a note have a mood? :)
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voxpelli eg. Facebook has the possibility to attach a mood to all of your notes
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voxpelli something also Jaiku had
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LanceyWork could you attach a mood to a like? :p
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KevinMarks_ and livejournal
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KartikPrabhu you could attach anything to anything by making up a mf2 property. the question is is it useful
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KartikPrabhu mf2 does allow me to attach a fax number to a volcano
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voxpelli Foursquares Swarm like Jaiku has the ability to attach icons to send some additional info – mood/emoji-style
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KartikPrabhu to use KevinMarks_'s pet example
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KartikPrabhu what is mood?
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Loqi mood is sometimes expressed explicitly in or about a post, by the post author https://indiewebcamp.com/mood
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KartikPrabhu well there
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KartikPrabhu no one seems to be publishing moods. If they are then documenting why/how is a good start
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KartikPrabhu same with "reaction"
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LanceyWork no standard to attach moods to something
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KartikPrabhu LanceyWork: mf2 allows you to experiment with properties. start with p-x-mood
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LanceyWork i'll brb and check the logs later
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voxpelli so mood could be text, emoji or an icon maybe?
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KartikPrabhu sure. or URL or photo
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KartikPrabhu u-x-mood
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KevinMarks_ http://activitystrea.ms/specs/json/schema/activity-schema.html#mood-property
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KartikPrabhu I'd just express mood in the actual reply text
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snarfed1 KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 113 karma
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KevinMarks_ is o_O a mood?
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voxpelli if one wants to replicate Slack then emoji for standard emojis with image as fallback for non-custom emojis would be the way to go
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KevinMarks_ right, slack allows per-slack images
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voxpelli for Facebook emoji + text would probably be the way to go
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voxpelli yep, and its totally awesome :)
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KevinMarks_ one slcik I'm in had a 'vote on your favorite doctor who' with 13 custom dr who emoji
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voxpelli is ayone adding any off this to that /mood page?
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KevinMarks_ s/slcik/slack/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: one slack I'm in had a 'vote on your favorite doctor who' with 13 custom dr who emoji
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KartikPrabhu people invested in this mood thing should definitely capture it as Discussion
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ben_thatmustbeme hah
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ben_thatmustbeme whovian emoji is needed in my slack channels now
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gRegorLove 4th Doctor, obviously.
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gRegorLove :longscarf:
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ben_thatmustbeme i made my own scarf... 12 foot
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ben_thatmustbeme insanely long
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ben_thatmustbeme tried my best to color match the original
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ben_thatmustbeme but thats offtopic
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rascul https://rascul.io/2015/did-i-break-indieauth
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rascul i think i broke my indieauth :(
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Loqi [bridgy] Richard MacManus favorited a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/628623660211777536)
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kylewm gRegorLove: did you know your user id on Woodwind is 2?
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gRegorLove Yeah, haha
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kylewm gRegorLove++ :)
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Loqi gRegorLove has 28 karma
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kylewm the database thinks you are subscribed to that feed twice
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gRegorLove Ah. Maybe I click submit really fast.
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kylewm sheesh, it really shouldn't allow that :P
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gRegorLove Forms are a pain.
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gRegorLove Unsubscribed from the duplicate
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kylewm grr, setting Cache-Control: no-cache didn't fix my back button woes in Woodwind
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rascul yay my indieauth login isn't broken anymore
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rascul kylewm woodwind looks nice
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kylewm thanks rascul! long time no see
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rascul yeah i've been awol for a bit
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rascul haven't really had time or desire in awhile to work on my site, so i just installed known last night
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kylewm that's cool
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kylewm what was the problem with indieauth?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "problem with indieauth" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100z
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rascul dunno
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rascul it just wouldn't work for about an hour
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rascul then it magically worked again
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ben_thatmustbeme rascul, that explains why i got a notification of your joining twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme or first post to twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme or something
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rascul hehe
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rascul i had 2 posts there, one was an old keybase and another i don't remember, i deleted them both and made a new post
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rascul i guess twitter interpreted that as my first post ever
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ben_thatmustbeme huh... thats interesting
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ben_thatmustbeme you could just keep notifying people of every tweet that way?
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rascul heh i guess
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ben_thatmustbeme try it!
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ben_thatmustbeme 1 tweet feeds will be all the rage
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rascul lol
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joskar kylewm: How about Cache-Control: no-store or Cache-Control: max-age=0 ?
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kylewm will try
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joskar Maybe throw in an Expires: header as well (browser apparently _really_want_ to cache things...)
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@kevinmarks “Implementing microformats is a cinch” -progressive enhancement advice from @jgarber http://sixtwothree.org/posts/designing-with-progressive-enhancement#microformats%20are%20community-developed%20patterns%20for%20marking%20up%20a%20variety%20of%20common%20data%20structures #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/628670464580153344)
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KevinMarks_ heh, loqi shows the tweet before the twitter web ui updates
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[aaronpk] rascul: were you signing in with an https URL?
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rascul yes
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rascul i think i tried http and https, http redirects to https
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[aaronpk] It may be that one of the IndieAuth.com servers didn't recognize the certificate chain
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rascul seems to work again now, though
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rascul lasted about an hour
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snarfed1 PSA: pass this along to anyone you think might be interested in tackling it: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31801856/facebook-api-replacement-for-me-home-to-get-users-news-feed
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snarfed i'll add a big bounty as soon as it lets me
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snarfed it's my last ditch effort to keep https://facebook-atom.appspot.com/ running after october
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kylewm oh boy, CBroe responded condescendingly already!
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snarfed neverending supply of "someone's wrong on the internet" people :P
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snarfed i'm considering also posting a job request on a freelance site
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snarfed not sure which is more likely to get results: fake internet points + high quality people (generally), or real money + unknown quality
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aaronpk lol
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kylewm to be fair, in the Facebook developers FB group, there is an unending supply of people asking how to get some permission they shouldn't have, because they want their spammy game to automatically share scores and invite people
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snarfed fair point
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snarfed we are asking for basically the same thing
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snarfed different intent, but still
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kylewm hehe
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aaronpk well, you're not asking for posting permissions, so it's pretty different
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kylewm we don't want to spam people, we just want to undermine facebook as a social platform
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aaronpk lol
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snarfed sure, but still a permission we "shouldn't" have, if should is based on FB's product intent
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aaronpk that is true
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snarfed kylewm: heh. if anything, i'm trying to use the *platform* part of FB *more*, not less
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snarfed silosasplumbing++
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Loqi silosasplumbing has 2 karma
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kylewm I'm just being cynical. They are clamping down on the API for all sorts of good reasons, but I'm sure they're not heartbroken that it also starves out well-meaning applications that want to get data out of facebook
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snarfed agreed
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snarfed shades of gray, whee
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rascul 50 of them?
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wrk3.com created /User:Wrk3.com (+280) "Getting page started" (view diff)
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kylewm rascul: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-28/line/1438097236231
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rascul all 50!
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kylewm haha, that was just a couple days ago
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snarfed aha, right! i tried to find it but search failed
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GWG Evening
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