#indiewebcamp 2015-07-27

2015-07-27 UTC
tilgovi and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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@veganstraightedge
Thanks to @t for publishing this #indieweb 2014 recap. It's important to look back on our accomplishments sometimes. http://tantek.com/2015/201/b1/indiewebcamp-2014-year-review
(twitter.com/_/status/625465793912815617)
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GWG
!tell acegiak Some of what I'm doing is up in the GIthub repo, if you want to look
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
complains about documentation that uses "authentication" and "authorization" interchangably
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kylewm
#justindiewebthings
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kylewm
specifically wordpress.com
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kylewm
(that said, their API is great and such a big difference from the walled gardeny silos)
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GWG
kylewm: As I said, you should try for the new REST API
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GWG
I think it is similar, but they are trying to refine it before integration
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kylewm
GWG: I don't really want to encourage self-hosted Wordpress users to use silo.pub
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kylewm
they should use the Micropub plugin right?
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GWG
kylewm: If the standard is clarified on the subject of editing, yes
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kylewm
what are you working on this evening, GWG?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "you working on this evening, GWG" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100T
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kylewm
!give Loqi a sock
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Loqi
gives a sock to Loqi
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kylewm
gives Loqi a sock
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Loqi
eyes the sock
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ben_thatmustbeme
!give kylewm a hard time
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Loqi
gives a hard time to kylewm
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kylewm
oh man this is very confusing. I want to get authorization credentials from Wordpress.com, but later also want to use it as an identity provider ... should I create two different "Applications" for those two purposes?
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kylewm
because the SiloPub Wp.com application only allows one redirect_uri to be used, and I don't know how to use the same one for those two very different purposes...
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aaronpk
you're kidding me
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Loqi
aaronpk: anomalily left you a message 2 hours, 48 minutes ago: to work on his book http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-26/line/1437952163915
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aaronpk
tehe I am don't worry
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aaronpk
kylewm: that's is bad form on wordpress.com's part. but the way to get around it is to use the "state" parameter
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aaronpk
you can do state=123123124123-authz and state=123124123124-id and then your app can know what to do
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aaronpk
see this is why i am writing a book on OAuth :)
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kylewm
ok, that makes sense...
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kylewm
haha, yes! back to work!
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GWG
aaronpk: I'm sorry to say I'm not planning to read it
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GWG
But if for some reason I decide to implement oauth, your book will be my first stop
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kylewm
will read it
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kylewm
I have to say http://grant.codes/ is the coolest domain thus far, sorry yourmom.io
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GWG
aaronpk: Have you written any other books?
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GWG
And why is anomalily coming in here to tell us not to distract you?
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GWG
By the way, hope we aren't?
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GWG
Did you offer her a free copy?
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tantek
aaronpk++ for peacekeeping
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 6 hours, 2 minutes ago: I am sometimes getting 400 errors when fetching http://tantek.com (note no /) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-26/line/1437950846670
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Loqi
aaronpk has 910 karma
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tantek
aaronpk - would it be bad to edit that typo tanttk to fix a mistaken link?
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tantek
(in the logs)
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tantek
rhiaro++ for a successful #IndieWebCamp Edi!
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Loqi
rhiaro has 134 karma
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tantek
jarofgreen++ for a successful #IndieWebCamp Edi!
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Loqi
jarofgreen has 3 karma
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KevinMarks_
So please fix my typo
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tantek
aaronpk ^^^
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@energyovertime
Geeking out. Set up personal domain hosting via github pages, web sign-in via indieauth, validated my profiles via http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbradleyallen.info
(twitter.com/_/status/625537595422801925)
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@voxpelli
@energyovertime Nice! Happy to see more static site IndieWebbers :) If you want to set up WebMentions next, check https://webmention.herokuapp.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/625579659514769408)
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petermolnar
good morning
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petermolnar
how was Edinburgh?
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tbrb
petermolnar: I think it went pretty well actually, most people seemed to take something from the weekend and there was a lot of good hacking done on the sunday
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moredhel
yeah, I definitely enjoyed it.
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moredhel
I spent more time being social and chatting than actually hacking though
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@Sahnelinchen
Es funzt plötzlich alles viel schneller als ich dachte. Neues Theme und #indieweb laufen. Fehlen nur noch ein paar Beitragsfotos! #blogumzug
(twitter.com/_/status/625606407409246208)
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@LukasRosenstock
@mxstbr The idea of putting keys on your site fits the #IndieWeb spirit very well, I invite you to present it on @indiewebcamp IRC and wiki.
(twitter.com/_/status/625645331821273088)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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mxstbr
As Lukas Rosenstock suggested on twitter, (https://twitter.com/LukasRosenstock/status/625645331821273088) I'll share a project of mine here, pgp.asc. (http://pgpasc.org) The idea is to decentralise public PGP keys by storing them on your own server, in the root folder, in a file called pgp.asc. That way, to get a public PGP key you just have to go to recipientdomain.tld/pgp.asc and you'll get his key. E.g. if you go to http://m
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@LukasRosenstock
@mxstbr The idea of putting keys on your site fits the #IndieWeb spirit very well, I invite you to present it on @indiewebcamp IRC and wiki.
(twitter.com/_/status/625645331821273088)
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voxpelli
mxstbr: It's a neat idea! I think it ties into http://indiewebcamp.com/pgp and perhaps especially https://indieauth.com/gpg
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cweiske
that works for 1 person per domain
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mxstbr
voxpelli cheers for the links, will read through them! cweiske, yes, exactly it is currently intended for personal domains.
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petermolnar
mxstbr you can store that in dns and there's already a few solutions for that...
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petermolnar
check dkim and the *._domainkey entries
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voxpelli
there's many ways for discovery – all with their upsides and downsides :)
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petermolnar
although to be honest the more I understand the DNS system I trust it less and less
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petermolnar
so alternatives may not be bad ideas
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mxstbr
petermolnar, true, but you have to be able to add DNS records, which might not be given. Also, you know the DNS system... ;-)
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petermolnar
mxstbr so which PGP key is meant to be uploaded?
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petermolnar
the primary mail I believe
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mxstbr
petermolnar Whichever one you want to share
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petermolnar
but how will the mail address be discovered?
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mxstbr
petermolnar: it's assumed the sender already has it/has an easy to find it (e.g. a mention on your webpage)
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voxpelli
if the e-mailer claims to be the same user as site X and you on site X finds a public key that can verify a signature included in the e-mail then that verifies that claim
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petermolnar
( by the way I had /pgp for this already, but not as plain text; the pgp.avc does make is more reasonable )
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petermolnar
s/pgp/gpg/
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Loqi
petermolnar meant to say: ( by the way I had /gpg for this already, but not as plain text; the gpg.avc does make is more reasonable )
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petermolnar
mxstbr please move pgpasc.org to https :); http://indiewebcamp.com/https has guide
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mxstbr
petermolnar that's what I'm currently doing, just waiting for the certificates. Should be done soon!
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@aaronpk
@LukasRosenstock @mxstbr If you link to your PGP key you can sign in to the wiki with your domain! https://indieauth.com/gpg
(twitter.com/_/status/625666628819267584)
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@maxbarners
An epic review of 2014 for the #IndieWeb movement from @t. Own your data! http://tantek.com/2015/201/b1/indiewebcamp-2014-year-review
(twitter.com/_/status/625667168575864833)
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aaronpk
just caught up on (short) logs from overnight :)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /antipatterns (+106) "add well-known"
(view diff)
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voxpelli
aaronpk: funny that the well-known wiki page doesn't have /.well-known as an example ;)
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aaronpk
haha yeah
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Loqi
rofl
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snarfed
lesser evil at least
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aaronparecki.com
edited /well-known (+14) "/* Examples */ add .well-known"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
mxstbr: for the GPG support for indieauth.com, I let people put their GPG key wherever they want, including on a different hostname, and just link to it with a rel=me attribute from their home page
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voxpelli
it and webfinger – I still find them a bit interesting, but lack of momentum around them makes me not give them a lot of attention
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aaronpk
the benefit is you can put the GPG key wherever you want, regardless of what backend storage mechanism you're using. and if you want, you can even put it on a different server
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aaronpk
some people link directly to their key on keybase.io that way
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voxpelli
aaronpk: https://indieauth.com/gpg says you should link to it with a rel-pgpkey?
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aaronpk
oh yes sorry
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voxpelli
too bad there doesn't seem to be a mime-type for such keys – otherwise a <a rel="me" type="a-relevant-mime-type"> would have been kind of neat
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cweiske
voxpelli, there is "asc"
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cweiske
ascii-armored data
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aaronpk
the idea of ascii as "armor" is amusing
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mxstbr
aaronpk yeah, but then you need a webpage to parse. Having the pgp key at /pgp.asc, no matter if you have a website or not has the benefit of not needing a webpage.
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aaronpk
that feels like an edge case not worth optimizing for
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aaronpk
especially since it still requires web hosting
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aaronpk
when I have seen people who have a domain but don't have a website there, it's because they don't have hosting for the domain and there is no A record for their domain
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mxstbr
Don't feel like that's necessarily true, one of my domains (mxs.is) is hosted on a virtual host that is solely a link shortener — no homepage there.
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mxstbr
Maybe it's just me though, that's possible. :-)
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aaronpk
why would you want your pgp key on your short domain tho?
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mxstbr
Because I have an email address @mxs.is
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aaronpk
aha that is a great reason :)
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aaronpk
it would still work though, because mxs.is redirects to mxstbr.com which does have a home page!
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mxstbr
And the basic premise is that a mail client could automatically check for a pgp key based on the recipients domain
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petermolnar
aaronpk is there a way to use that link rel="pgpkey" as rel="me" in a hcard?
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mxstbr
Yeah I just checked that and mxs.is/pgp.asc works as well, because it redirects to mxstbr.com aswell
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voxpelli
one could have the well-known as a fallback to a rel-pgpkey
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aaronpk
it looks like http://microformats.org/wiki/h-card lists a "key" property, not sure where that came from
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voxpelli
aaronpk: a lot of those keys are taken from vCard, aren't they? So from there?
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aaronpk
likely
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aaronpk
mxstbr: nice job on the pgpasc.org site though, es sieht gut aus! :)
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mxstbr
aaronpk Danke sehr! Thankfully, a proper designer stepped forward, big props to Jurgis! (see here: https://github.com/mxstbr/pgp.asc/issues/1)
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mxstbr
While I'm okay at design, I get really perfectionistic and it's never good enough, so it takes me ages to finish anything.
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mxstbr
So it's good to have somebody else take that responsibility ;-)
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aaronpk
that's great!
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aaronpk
I'd love someone to help with design for some of my projects like indieauth.com and webmention.io :) I mostly use bootstrap and do as little as possible haha
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think i might have mptweet working
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aaronpk
is that the micropub endpoint that actually posts to twitter?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: yes
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm trying to get it correctly returning data so i can store the syndication url
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i have had it syndicating already. i somehow just broke it actually
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@kylewmahan
https://silo.pub/ supports “native” authentication now! #indieweb #micropub https://www.youtube.com/
(twitter.com/_/status/625690522120622080)
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aaronpk
that's amazing
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aaronpk
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 198 karma
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kylewm
thank you!
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kylewm
I should have recorded the video on a smaller window
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Loqi
definitely
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aaronpk
hehe yeah a full screen shrunk down is hard to see
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snarfed
kylewm++ !
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Loqi
kylewm has 199 karma
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snarfed
kylewm: youtube's "up next" videos for your screencast are soooo random
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aaronpk
i wish there was a way to disable those as a publisher
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snarfed
MUST SEE! Magicians Young & Strange Hijack Sky News!
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snarfed
MUST SEE! Magicians Young & Strange Hijack Sky News!
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snarfed
6ft Man in 6ft Giant Water Balloon - 4K
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snarfed
MUST SEE! Magicians Young & Strange Hijack Sky News!
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snarfed
6ft Man in 6ft Giant Water Balloon - 4K
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snarfed
How to Destroy Your Cell Phone With Sen. Lindsey Graham
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snarfed
huh that was weird paste behavior
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KartikPrabhu
!spammer snarfed ;) jk jk
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Loqi
Only aaronpk and tantek can do that
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kylewm
ha, yeah that is weird. It would've been nice if it was other indieweb related stuff....
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aaronpk
i think it uses tags to match? so if you add a bunch of indieweb tags it might help
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snarfed
fun pun though
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aaronpk
oh and that description isn't accurate anymore right?
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kylewm
oh, yeah I need to change that copy
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kylewm
good catch both
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snarfed
i tried teacup against my test tumblr just now, and i think teacup worked, but http://snarfed.tumblr.com/ doesn't show it. maybe because teacup doesn't pass content?
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aaronpk
teacup passes summary, no content
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snarfed
right. maybe silo.pub should either allow that or error?
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aaronpk
accepting summary as a fallback would be a good plan i think
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kylewm
did you say that 'summary' will maybe be the thing that is always guaranteed?
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snarfed
wow, jonnybarnes your autosave animation on https://jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new is very…animated :P
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aaronpk
if no content
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: hfeed2atom now has a service for Atom: https://kartikprabhu.com/hfeed2atom?url=https://aaronparecki.com let me know if you use it or have suggestions
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: nice!
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snarfed
also jonnybarnes minor feature suggestion, i first tried logging in with snarfed.tumblr.com and it errored. maybe consider adding http:// automatically in that case.
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu++ woo!
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu has 110 karma
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KartikPrabhu
might attempt an appspot move if my bandwidth takes a big hit but for now easier to host myself
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aaronpk
that's amazing
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aaronpk
worked with my custom domain tumblr too :)
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kylewm
oh yay! that needs more testing
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Loqi
yay!
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: https://kartikprabhu.com/hfeed2atom?url=https://snarfed.org is hanging on me :( maybe ssl is unhappy?
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yeah weird. because it is the same code as on my website which seems to get your webmentions fine afaik. will track the problem
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snarfed
jonnybarnes: another bug report, when i clicked on Refresh Syndication Targets, it errored and then kept erroring on every page until i cleared cookies. just fyi
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+68) "/* Explicit CRUD */"
(view diff)
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kylewm
I'm having trouble loading kartikprabhu.com at all
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah seems snarfed's feed triggered some bad process on server. will have to restart apache
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snarfed
aww sorry
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snarfed
kylewm: using silopub…i wonder if there's a way to skip the tumblr approval prompt every time
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KartikPrabhu
i ran into this with some feeds earlier but I thought I fixed it
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aaronpk
sometimes oauth providers have a parameter that can skip the prompt if the user has already authorized the app
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kylewm
i tried to use /authenticate instead of /authorize there, but tumblr only has the latter
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: site should be back up
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KartikPrabhu
https://kartikprabhu.com/hfeed2atom?url=https://snarfed.org seems to work now but only picks up 2 posts. weird indeed
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KartikPrabhu
alright. good stuff to hack on tonight :P
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aaronpk
yeah no mention of a way to skip it on tumblr
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aaronpk
sometimes i'ts a parameter on the /authorize url
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kylewm
snarfed: I think your h-feed has a deleted post cached at the top of it
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snarfed
kylewm: huh, what do you mean cached?
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snarfed
also, funny…i'm trying different micropub clients from https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Clients , i hit elf-pavlik's at https://elf-pavlik.github.io/unmpc/ , and i have no clue how to use it
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kylewm
but the post itself is missing
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snarfed
makes me feel dumb
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kylewm
oh ha, elf's needs CORS at minimum
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snarfed
ah, true, that post is indeed deleted. odd that it's there. meh.
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kylewm
and even then I think it will only post to one domain
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snarfed
kylewm: oh you've been sampling clients too?
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aaronpk
yeah i don't know how to use elf's either
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snarfed
i totally didn't for wp-micropub
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snarfed
heh ok good then
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aaronpk
i don't know what "space" means, or why it has "aaronparecki.com" pre-filled in the "persona" label which is disabled
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snarfed
i barely even know what persona is
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kylewm
heh, I still have access-control-allow-origin:"https://elf-pavlik.github.io" in my headers
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fkooman
aaronpk, snarfed it is not super intuitive, but it works with phubble.tuxed.net as far as I know (https://phubble.tuxed.net)
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snarfed
taproot got a 403 on silopub to blogger
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fkooman
but you need to use indiecert to be able to actually use the micropub endpoint for now :(
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snarfed
fkooman: ah ok. even UI wise, i was immediately stumped. but meh no matter.
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fkooman
snarfed, haha yeah, the prefiil is a bit confusing :)
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snarfed
aaronpk: teacup crashed on me just now, trying to post a custom food + location to http://freedom-io-2.blogspot.com/
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snarfed
let me know if you want the stacktrace
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fkooman
snarfed, it has the ability to view and post to private 'spaces', so you have to specify the URL of the 'space' you want to post to. Only if you are a member of the group associated with the space you can post...
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snarfed
i should start charging for qa :P
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snarfed
fkooman: i see. soo it's feature rich but only partly micropub
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snarfed
all of those explanations would be great to have on the site itself!
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fkooman
snarfed, well...
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fkooman
it is an experiment with private micropub/webmention etc.
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snarfed
definitely worth saying on the site :P
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fkooman
agreed :)
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snarfed
ok i'm 2/5 on micropub clients so far
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aaronpk
snarfed: how'd you manage to pull that off? were you using the teacup site as normal?
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snarfed
postly (ben_thatmustbeme) and jonnybarnes yes, teacup taproot unmpc no
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snarfed
aaronpk: i guess?
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snarfed
manually through a browser yes
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aaronpk
weird, i don't understand how that case was hit, but i can fix it anyway
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snarfed
fkooman: thanks!
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snarfed
oh actually 2/6. https://micropublish.herokuapp.com/ also failed. couldn't even log in
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kylewm
I need to remember this -- do not test only on Quill
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kylewm
adds logging
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fkooman
still is unable to get Quill running locally :-)
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aaronpk
fkooman: you might try again, Jeena just added sqlite support for it
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snarfed
hey quill is still better than my wp-micropub testing, i think i only used curl :P
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snarfed
kylewm: but afaict most/all of the failures were their fault, not yorus
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snarfed
trying hard to find a seventh non-quill client
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kylewm
that's what silopub wants you to think
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kylewm
woodwind?
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snarfed
i thought readers all required indie config etc?
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snarfed
btw kylewm didn't you write a cmd line client? should it be on https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Clients ?
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kylewm
indie config like /indie-config? nah, it's optional
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snarfed
oh ok then
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kylewm
I started a cmd line client but fell short
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aaronpk
you could try monocle but it might not be sufficiently diffeerent from quill since i wrote it too :)
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kylewm
Taproot is sending the wrong client_id
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kylewm
to the token endpoint
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fkooman
aaronpk, yeah I did, but was unable to debug white screen of death, nothing in logs, have to look more :)
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aaronpk
ah weird. might be local php error logging settings?
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fkooman
aaronpk, that was my first guess... I'll take a look now :)
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snarfed
kylewm, silly question, how do i reply from woodwind?
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snarfed
oh i have to configure it
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snarfed
maybe consider auto-discovering and enabling mp/indie-config?
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snarfed
also, when i enabled micropub, auth worked, but then it was unchecked when i was redirected back to woodwind
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snarfed
(checking it showed the stored auth)
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Jeena
fkooman what problems do you have with it? Most of the things I had was that I had to change something in the php.ini to get it running, perhaps I can help?
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fkooman
Jeena, thanks, I'll fiddle some more first :)
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snarfed
woo silopub success! three posts on three silos from three different clients: http://freedom-io-2.blogspot.com/ , http://snarfed.tumblr.com/ , https://ryandc.wordpress.com/
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 200 karma
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Jeena
ok, are you trying to run it via apache or just plain php -S localhost:8000 or something like that?
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aaronpk
snarfed++ that's great!
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Loqi
snarfed has 122 karma
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snarfed
btw kylewm silopub's silo setup instructions are great, nice work on those
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fkooman
Jeena, via apache
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fkooman
Jeena, i now reach the post screen! :-) but posting doesn't do anything
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Jeena
I would start with the standalone thing first, and when that is working go over to apache if your really need it
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Jeena
hehe nice, good luck with the rest then too ;)
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fkooman
Request made to your Micropub endpoint
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fkooman
this box remains empty
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kylewm
snarfed: thanks for the testing!! yeah the micropub radio button thing is a problem i've had before too. i need to fix it so that it has to submit before you can click "authorize micropub" or something like that
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fkooman
Jeena, ah, CSP issue
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kylewm
man, micropub clients are all different :p
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kylewm
adding "micropub test suite" to my itches...
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fkooman
Jeena, aaronpk everything works now :)
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Jeena
cool :D
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fkooman
i had to empty the users table
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fkooman
that fixed stuff
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Jeena
it is a pitty that you have to be on port 80 to authenticate with https://indieauth.com/
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Jeena
I needed to run Quill as root to do that for testing
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Jeena
oh not quill, my website
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Jeena
because you can use ip addresses as domains but without the port
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fkooman
but cool now, i have an offline micropub client, yee :)
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kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+283) "Micropub conformance test suite"
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kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (-2) "/* Itches */ markup fix"
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aaronpk
Jeena: you shouldn't need to be on port 80
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aaronpk
someone logged in with their domain on port 8081 this weekend
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Jeena
weird, I couldn't do it, it would just hang or something
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kylewm
snarfed: also thanks for the kind words about the instructions -- i borrowed a bunch from bridgy for blogs, especially the direct links to Customize HTML type pages
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aaronpk
Jeena: well until sunday one of the servers was blocking outgoing traffic except 80 and 443
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aaronpk
but that's fixed now
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Jeena
ah I see
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Jeena
than that is not a problem anymore
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kylewm
I think maybe when I redo the oauth flow for Blogger, it invalidates the old token
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mxstbr
aaronpk: are webmentions.io and indieauth.com online somewhere? (GitHub or similar)
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mxstbr
Can take a look when I have a few minutes
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+2295) "html escaping"
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aaronpk
this is relevant to many people here, would appreciate review/thoughts: http://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub-brainstorming#HTML_Escaping
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aaronpk
particularly if you've written either a micropub client or server
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Jeena
jeez, Facebook has such a shitty UI, something a friend of mine commented showed up in my stream, I wanted to find it, but I can't on his timeline it doesn't show up and in my stream it's gone too
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voxpelli
aaronpk: so far I have assumed "content" to always be HTML – good with a generic approach for that
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aaronpk
voxpelli: if you assume it to be html, how would you expect to be able to type un-escaped things in a client? like if you're typing literally <blink> and you want the <> to show up in your note?
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aaronpk
cause the other way this could go (which diverges from the microformats<->micropub mapping) is to say that clients should send escaped content
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voxpelli
that would make all params e-* essentially
KartikPrabhu and tilgovi joined the channel
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voxpelli
good to be able to differentiate between when one wants a e-* and when one wants a non e-* parameter – so +1 on your suggestion
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aaronpk
cool, that's a +1 to what's in the wiki?
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aaronpk
would you mind adding that to the wiki then? probably worth collecting there
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voxpelli
and then we can do content[lang]=sv to define the language as well if that direction for language gets traction ;)
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aaronpk
ah yeah
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aaronpk
i like that
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voxpelli
aaronpk: how do one typically mark up a +1 on a brainstorm page? :P
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aaronpk
* +1 ~~~~
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voxpelli
at the very bottom or at the top of the suggestion?
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aaronpk
i guess at the bottom
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voxpelli
not much feedback on the micropub brainstorming page :P
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aaronpk
there's a bit of discussion under some of the things
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aaronpk
damn, i just realized a limitation of using the "edit-of" and "delete-of" properties that way
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cweiske
aaronpk, I didn't get a webmention from your post
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cweiske
I wonder why
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aaronpk
checks his webmention sending logs
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cweiske
nothing in my linkback database
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aaronpk
doesn't have actual logs, just tmux scrollback ,and it's gone
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Loqi
[mention] Aaron Parecki posted 'Today I extended @cweiske's sequence diagram to cover the whole IndieAuth for Micropub flow. Hope it's helpful! More info here: http://indie...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/obtaining-an-access-token (https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/07/26/3/)
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aaronpk
oh you know what, i bet my webmention sending from micropub is broken somehow
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aaronpk
just forced it to re-send for that post
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cweiske
got it
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, I often do not get a response for https://kartikprabhu.com/hfeed2atom?url=https://aaronparecki.com (or a timeout)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+274) "/* Multiple in-reply-to */"
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cweiske
504 - Gateway Timeout
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cweiske
aaronpk, when clicking on the "more notes" link on your home page, it'd be nice if it jumped to the correct anchor on the notes page
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aaronpk
good idea
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cweiske
so I can continue reading instead of having to scroll down manually
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@csarven
http://csarven.ca/webmention is a #webmention endpoint w/ #RDF & #microformats support, optionally accepts a property parameter. Details provided
(twitter.com/_/status/625720555308777472)
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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tantek
!tell GWG any plans for HWC in NYC this week?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, you should send out last-modified headers with your hfeed2atom proxy and support if-modified-since request headers
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kylewm
aaronpk: I think that IndieAuth.com's verify step does not check that the client_id matches... should it? https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/blob/master/controllers/verify.rb#L81
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kylewm
cweiske: he would have to implement caching to support that too right?
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cweiske
not really. he could still query the original source and use its last-modified headers
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cweiske
but having a cache would of course be better
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aaronpk
kylewm: yes you're right
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kylewm
oh gotcha, and just forward "Unmodified" to the client?
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tantek
hey aaronpk is HWC a hacknight again this week?
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tantek
or is that just getting errantly copy/pasted forward from one event to another?
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kylewm
s/Unmodified/HTTP 304 Not modified
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: oh gotcha, and just forward "HTTP 304 Not modified" to the client?
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aaronpk
yeah i want to do hacknights for a while
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tantek
hoping you'll make it more open than just a hack night so we can be more inclusive of a broader set of creatives
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cweiske
kylewm, yes
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aaronpk
helps me set aside time to actually work on things
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aaronpk
i admit it's a somewhat selfish goal :)
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cuibonobo
hey everyone
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aaronpk
waves at cuibonobo
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cuibonobo
i got a response from the Apache Any23 people
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cuibonobo
apparently there's a google summer of code project that is tackling this
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cuibonobo
and they'd like to interface with kylewm to merge code
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Loqi
yay!
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tantek.com
edited /events/2015-07-29-homebrew-website-club (-449) "delete past cities, comment out NYC until/unless GWG sets it up - he can uncomment, add Göteborg to Notes"
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aaronpk
speaking of which, it might be time for me to add an events interface to Quill so that I can post indie events faster :)
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cuibonobo
so kylewm, if that's cool with you, you can jump into that thread and see what needs to be done
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kylewm
whoa, cool
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+184) "/* Explicit CRUD */"
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voxpelli
aaronpk: +1
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voxpelli
is generous with +1:s today
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voxpelli
then there's "q" for GET requests and "mp-action" for POST requests that decides what kind of request it is and everything else regarding that request is relative to the kind of action, right?
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voxpelli
such a setup is very flexible and future proof
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KevinMarks
I'm trying to get 304 working with unmung hovercards, but hitting all kinds of oddnesss
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KevinMarks
which wasn't showing up when I just dis a naive read
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aaronpk
yes, as well as "access_token" for the post body
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kodfabrik.se
edited /Micropub-brainstorming (+148) "/* Explicit CRUD */ Adding a +1"
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: thanks will look into it. I don't know what is causing the time outs
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tantek
FYI demoing (video of) SWAT0 at Mozilla in minutes as part of https://wiki.mozilla.org/WeeklyUpdates/2015-07-27 - public stream info there
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tantek
aaronpk FYI - did you catch the errant typo link(s) to tanttk(.)com?
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tantek
thanks!
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kylewm
cuibonobo++
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Loqi
cuibonobo has 16 karma
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aaronpk
tunes into the mozilla livestream
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cweiske
KartikPrabhu, too bad that the feed isn't a full one with content
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: it is if the original h-feed is
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KartikPrabhu
it doesn't do article fetching simply converts h-feed to Atom
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cweiske
not very reading friendly :/
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KartikPrabhu
cweiske: h-feed page for that?
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tantek
and done!
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kylewm
I don't think you should expect hfeed2atom to produce higher fidelity than the h-feed itself...
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kylewm
that seems like an unreasonable expectation
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. it has the same readability as aaronpk's feed page :)
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tantek
indeed!
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KartikPrabhu
except aaronpk's page is nicely designed to be readbale
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voxpelli
if one uses a client like Feedbin or Reeder.app then one can get the full article extracted in there
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kylewm
I noticed Feedly does that too, are they parsing microformats??
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cweiske
pubsubhubbub was meant to take load from the server, but by only providing thin h-feeds, the clients do have to fetch more data
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voxpelli
kylewm: feedbin and reeder.app uses the Readability API – so it's basically an Instapaper-like solution
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KartikPrabhu
Feedly does not get the full article I think
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voxpelli
My guess is that Feedly fetches Open Graph data – I know Bloglovin does (as I'm the one who built it there)
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KartikPrabhu
oh noes my site is down again! :|
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voxpelli
but +1 on cweiske – having clients fetch data from the individual page removes much of the point with fat pings from the hubs
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cweiske
aaronpk used to have fat atom/rss feeds which my reader only had to fetch once. now, even with push, my reader has to request each article by itself
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KartikPrabhu
no idea what in hfeed2atom is causing my server to go nuts
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voxpelli
one way to solve that is to put the resolving in the hub – I believe Superfeedr has played around with some such things
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tantek
cweiske - that's an interesting observation re: # of HTTP requests
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aaronpk
that seems like a good job for the hub
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cweiske
tantek, I already made that a year ago: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/atom-vs-hfeed-size.htm
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cweiske
Number of HTTP requests
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cweiske
atom: 1
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cweiske
h-feed: 11
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voxpelli
cweiske: that's not a fair comparison – often you would want to fetch the individual articles for Atom as well
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voxpelli
because the metadata of most RSS/Atom feeds are really bad
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aaronpk
in practice, many publishers ended up putting only a summary in their atom feeds
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cweiske
because ads
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voxpelli
and the image data is often much worse than the Open Graph data – because honestly – how many web devs test the sites they design in RSS-readers vs tests them at Facebook?
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aaronpk
right, but then clients go fetch the canonical html anyway to get the full article
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voxpelli
(suprisingly few even tests them at Facebook!)
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voxpelli
cweiske: not just ads, statistics are at least as important
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cweiske
and they get stats from facebook?
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voxpelli
sites want to know how many readers they have – and that very question was up in this channel as well – that people here wanted to know how many readers they would lose if they dropped their RSS-feed
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aaronpk
it just occurred to me that this is analogous to podcast distribution
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voxpelli
cweiske: Facebook has amazing stats!
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cweiske
(never used it)
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aaronpk
podcast feeds contain a link to the audio file, which all the clients go and download
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aaronpk
there's no such thing as "fat podcast distribution"
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cweiske
so you're comparing binary data with plain text (html) data
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aaronpk
audio files are significantly larger
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cweiske
yep. that's why they are not included in the feeds
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cweiske
but the show notes are often
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aaronpk
they *could* be included in the feeds
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aaronpk
and they could be pushed to subscribers via PuSH as well
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aaronpk
but they aren't
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voxpelli
one difference is that audio (and photos) are static – harder to put a strain on a server when it's raw bandwidth rather than dynamic generation
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cweiske
most podcasts have multiple formats, it would make no sense to put them all in the same feed
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voxpelli
and it can be cached efficiently compared to an article page
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cweiske
if only one format is then used by the client anyway
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cweiske
but the HTML in the feed *will* be used, because there is no other format that delivers the same data
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aaronpk
interesting observation re: dynamically generated pages vs static assets
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voxpelli
but it would probably be a problem if a podcast started doing PuSH and had thousands of clients all trying to download an episode at once
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kylewm
"most podcasts have multiple formats" -- citation needed?
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cweiske
see the dropdown
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M-Kegan
Most of the podcasts I listen to just have the one format personally...
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aaronpk
the itunes spec (which obviously heavily dominates podcast distribution) only lists one enclosure https://www.apple.com/itunes/podcasts/specs.html
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voxpelli
if one subscribes to a podcast through eg. iTunes – do Apple perhaps "fat ping" the audio by mirroring at their own servers and pointing clients there?
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kylewm
huh, I'm pretty sure I've only ever seen that kind of thing on archive.org before
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aaronpk
no, apple doesn't host audio
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voxpelli
cweiske: the German podcaster community and the american one are fascinatingly different even in technological regard though ;)
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GWG
snarfed: I tested against multiple clients for Micropub
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Loqi
GWG: tantek left you a message 58 minutes ago: any plans for HWC in NYC this week? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438018517197
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snarfed
GWG: great!
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GWG
tantek: No news from zachdonovan
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aaronpk
you can get approximate listener counts by just checking the number of http requests for your audio file linked in your podcast rss feed
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snarfed
wonders how KartikPrabhu's hfeed2atom compares to https://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/
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cweiske
also multiple format
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GWG
snarfed: That is why Teacup works in the development version of the plugin.
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aaronpk
cweiske: those don't have rss URLs do they?
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cweiske
they have
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kylewm
cweiske: yoru three examples are all produced by the same company!
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cweiske
I'm subscribed via rss/atom to them
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cweiske
kylewm, the last one not :)
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aaronpk
the atom feed only has one audio type
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voxpelli
yay – they have rel-payment links in them! then again – I see it is Tim Pritlove so kind of expected it :)
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aaronpk
that last one doesn't even have an enclosure tag
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M-Kegan
Isn't this mainly a bandwidth problem though? In the ideal world every rss feed would spit out all the info you need, but that's not the point of pinging the client like this though imo
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cweiske
there are mp3s in it
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M-Kegan
I want to be notified that there's a new podcast, but I may want to download it later eg because I'm on mobile data
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M-Kegan
I should be able to choose.
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Loqi
I agree
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cweiske
M-Kegan, we're talking about pubsubhubbub here
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voxpelli
M-Kegan: yeah, that probably mitigates the "running herd"(?) problem
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cweiske
which means you need to be reachable anyway
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cweiske
thundering herd
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GWG
I am wondering if anything in the IndieWeb community would make for a good podcast
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M-Kegan
voxpelli, sure that would help with thundering herds
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voxpelli
and the fact that it is static means that if one have a big audience one probably puts the audio on a CDN
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M-Kegan
cweiske, I don't get why this is any different between rss feeds and pubsub. If the server is going to send me a crap ton of data, I'd rather it didn't.
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voxpelli
so – the conclusion here can perhaps be that if everyone were to switch their sites to jekyll then we could skip fat pings altogether – right? :)
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cweiske
M-Kegan, ok.
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cweiske
binary data are optional in the feeds; not everyone needs them immediately.
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cweiske
but the html data /are/ needed
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cweiske
because there is no other format that delivers the same data
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GWG
tantek, I think I may need to replace zachdonovan for a while
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M-Kegan
The core data needs to be supplied, but that's it imo. Send too much stuff and you also start increasing latency as my client desperately tries to download older content whilst newer stuff builds up.
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aaronpk
what about embedded images in the html?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk: i think that makes sense, and is exactly what i do already
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voxpelli
well, just like you download a podcast when you want to hear it you can download the content of an article when you want to read it – the only really necessary stuff is URL, date – and a title is kind of nice :)
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aaronpk
should that be sent in the fat ping as data URI?
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kylewm
snarfed: does Bridgy use/handle refresh tokens for blogger?
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ben_thatmustbeme
regarding explicit crud
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: thanks
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cweiske
M-Kegan, the push server should actually know when you got your last ping
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voxpelli
aaronpk: oh please no :P
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aaronpk
voxpelli: :D
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M-Kegan
I feel quite strongly against data uris in general for similar reasons to why I think audio is a bad idea.
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cweiske
and only send the diff to the current data
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M-Kegan
But for teeny tiny icons I'm okay with that.
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voxpelli
aaronpk: I've heard stories :P
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aaronpk
(i'm illustrating a point here, not actually suggesting doing this)
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voxpelli
it's amazing what people sometimes put in their metadata
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M-Kegan
cweiske, yes but my point is that the diff may be large.
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M-Kegan
Eg connectivity losses and the next time you ping you get lots of backlog.
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voxpelli
(eg. found someone that put their entire blog posts within an og:details – one then hopes that one has put an upper limit on the size of that field within ones parser and data store :P)
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cweiske
which "core meta data" are the ones you would expect in a feed?
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voxpelli
date + url + title
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cweiske
why is title and date required?
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cweiske
you can get that from the url.
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M-Kegan
There needs to be enough information for that client to make an informed decision on whether they want to "click" and get more info.
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voxpelli
date because you need to know if it's new and relevant and title isn't really necessary but most presentations need it – kind of a notification first design approach as I believe tantek has been pushing for :)
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M-Kegan
It may be a title, a short summary, it will depend on the content.
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voxpelli
the rest can be lazy loaded
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voxpelli
cweiske: what reader are you using btw?
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KevinMarks__
Tantek puts his whole post in the html <title>
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cweiske
tiny tiny rss
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KevinMarks__
Atom has title/summary/content
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tantek
KevinMarks__: yeah - that's from lack of design ;)
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KevinMarks__
Rss originally just had description
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GWG
cweiske: I use ttrss
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tantek
voxpelli: yes!
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tantek
notificationfirstdesign++
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Loqi
notificationfirstdesign has 1 karma
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tantek
which is a special case of
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tantek
textfirstdesign++
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Loqi
textfirstdesign has 2 karma
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cweiske
ttrss is tiny tiny rss
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GWG
cweiske: I was advising of a shared use
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cweiske
GWG, I made a subtome plugin for tt-rss some weeks ago: http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/tt-rss-subtome.htm
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GWG
cweiske, I try to stay away from the developer
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snarfed
kylewm: yes, google-api-python-client does it automatically
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snarfed
which afaik the gdata lib uses
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tantek
wow gdata - haven't heard a serious reference to that in a while
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snarfed
for the morbidly curious: blogger's current v3 api is REST, but doesn't support creating comments. v2 is gdata and does
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tantek
snarfed, wow they're trudging through history of API conventions
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KevinMarks__
Gdata is atom pub, so a decent fit for blogging api
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KevinMarks__
Less good fit for everything else it was shoehorned into
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KevinMarks__
And never made much sense for browser clients
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KevinMarks__
Handy for the "how long did that webmention take" debates
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Jeena
neat, I'm a positive example for a IndieWeb page on http://montrealsauce.com/2015/07/26/privacy-special-pt-2/
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@jeena
@peakwinter that is the already developed software you can use to get all the IndieWeb stuff for free.
(twitter.com/_/status/625763456646557698)
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kylewm
ok I added refresh tokens for blogger, I guess that had only ever worked long enough for proof of concept but not actual use, oops
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kylewm
snarfed++ for the info
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Loqi
snarfed has 123 karma
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snarfed
ooh you did it all yourself
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snarfed
is impressed
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kylewm
the docs say if you ask for 25 tokens for the same user, itwill silently revoke the oldest one
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kylewm
so now i'm a little concerned that the long-lived token I use for posting will be revoked if they log in a bunch of times
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snarfed
there goes my access token bingo game
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kylewm
since it generates a new access token for each login :/
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snarfed
yeah, you probably need to store the new one every time
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kylewm
did i just use every access token buzz word?
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snarfed
i think that's what g-a-p-c does
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aaronpk
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 202 karma
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kylewm
store new token each time, ok that makes sense
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tantek.com
edited /indieauth-for-login (+102) "grammar changes in dfn, move TOC to below diagram"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - made some minor edits to the dfn and TOC/styling of that page - please take a look to see if that looks better to you (or not).
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aaronpk
is "personal web address" different from URL?
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tantek
it's what the NYT ages ago used as a phrase that is user-friendlier (to their readers)
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tantek
"web address" > URL
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aaronpk
okay, so it's not an "OR" then?
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tantek
yeah that's ambiguous
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aaronpk
i'll just remove "URL"
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aaronpk
or maybe "personal web address (URL)"?
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tantek
is having flashbacks
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tantek.com
edited /indieauth-for-login (+76) "prefer personal web addres"
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /indieauth-for-login (-6) "linking to an authorization service is not optional, prefer personal web address"
(view diff)
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rhiaro
I didn't read backlog, but just wanted to mention that I had no idea indieauth for login was a thing until I saw tbrb implement it at the end of last week, and omg I want it
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djwesto
236596675647935
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wolftune
what's "[CTCP] Received CTCP-PING request from djwesto to channel #indiewebcamp, sending answer." mean?
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aaronpk
i was wondering the same thing
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myfreeweb
isn't CTCP the peer to peer thing for IRC? that allows sending files
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aaronpk
didn't know you could send a file to a whole channel
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myfreeweb
apparently you can send a ping
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djwesto
Yikes, hi there. I'm new to IRC and just going through a tutorial trying to learn it. I am so sorry for troubling you all.
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ben_thatmustbeme
woohooo, it worked
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ben_thatmustbeme
micropub chaining
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ben_thatmustbeme
i keep building stuff out of the relmeauth lib
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myfreeweb
what's chaining?
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ben_thatmustbeme
you can tell i was debugging a lot today (post count 40)
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is micropub chaining?
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Loqi
micropub chaining is when you have one micropub endpoint itself use micropub to post to another micropub endpoint, like to POSSE a post to silos, or to a community site or other commons https://indiewebcamp.com/micropub_chaining
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ben_thatmustbeme
interestingly i can set my micropub endpoint to syndicate different content now to twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme
or customize it
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ben_thatmustbeme
mpTweet just posts content + ' ' + url
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hpincket.com
edited /friendly (+364) "/* Friendly Services */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
hmm neat
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aaronpk
that seems a little different from what we intended the "friendly" page for... maybe we need a new section or new page?
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tantek
right no evidence of SaveMyMix supporting any indieweb protocols or formats as documented on that page
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tantek
better to move that to Spotify
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tantek
what is Spotify?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Spotify" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100U
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tantek
Spotify is a [[playlist]] hosting [[silo]] and streaming [[music]] service.
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loqi.me
created /Spotify (+102) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438031874090 and dfn added by tantek"
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tantek.com
edited /Spotify (+435) "exporting - move content from /friendly , add see also"
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tantek.com
edited /friendly (-364) "move savemymix for exporting to /Spotify page, since neither are actually indieweb friendly per this page dfn. Undo revision 21133 by [[Special:Contributions/Hpincket.com|Hpincket.com]] ([[User talk:Hpincket.com|talk]])"
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i feel accomplished for today
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ben_thatmustbeme
managed to get mptweet working
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ben_thatmustbeme
now what to write up for today's 100words
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Tristitia joined the channel
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KevinMarks
what is salmention
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Loqi
Salmentions are a way to pass comments upstream by sending a webmention from a reply post to the original post when the reply recieves a comment https://indiewebcamp.com/salmention
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KevinMarks
hm, how do I mark up inline native comments?
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aaronpk
what are native comments?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "native comments" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100V
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aaronpk
what is comments presentation?
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KevinMarks
yeah, in there now
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KevinMarks
does h-cite make sense for a native comment?
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KevinMarks
when it doesn't have a permalink?
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aaronpk
wasn't there some discussion abou this a couple weeks ago?
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aaronpk
i think the answer was yes because it isn't your own content
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KevinMarks
thats what i was looking for
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aaronpk
but i can't remember where that was written down
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kylewm
tentatively, I think we said they should still be u-comment h-cite, and the url should include the #id of the comment
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aaronpk
that sounds right
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aaronpk
if you give the comment its own permalink that'd be fine too
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kylewm
I think Known does the latter
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KevinMarks
if the comment doesn't have a permalink is p-comment h-cite ok?
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aaronpk
not even a fragment ID? I guess so
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tantek
kylewm: that sounds right, can you document what Known does?
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aaronpk
at least the value of the h-cite will still (probably) be a unique string
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tantek
hey that makes sense aaronpk
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gRegorLove
KevinMarks: I use(d) p-comments h-entry for native commetns, which don't have permalinks of their own.
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gRegorLove
I haven't added back comments-presentation since I migrated my site at IWC
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tantek
has anybody documented their implementations of "local comments" ?
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gRegorLove
It was quite a while ago I initially set that up, but I think it was because of this q that I asked: http://indiewebcamp.com/h-cite#FAQ
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tantek
dislikes "native comments" as a term
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tantek
bikeshed time?
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tantek
native comments, local comments, in-page comments, in-post comments
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gRegorLove
"local comments" sounds good to me
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aaronpk
localcomments++
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Loqi
localcomments has 1 karma
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tantek
what are local comments?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "local comments" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100W
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KevinMarks
local is better, yes
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KevinMarks
hm, now I'm editint he template and nothign is happening
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tantek
local comments are comments that are made directly (locally) on a post in the UI of the site serving the post, instead of posting a [[reply]] post on an indieweb site and sending a webmention.
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loqi.me
created /local_comments (+219) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438033825982 and dfn added by tantek"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
too many dev envs
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: when that happens to me it's usually because i'm actually editing a file on my computer but i think it's on the server :P
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kylewm
I have a Known permalink to add to the examples section
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KevinMarks
this is running locally on node
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tantek
kylewm: could you add the "IndieWeb Examples" section on /local_comments ?
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gRegorLove
Looking over my code, looks like I used a fragment as the u-url for local comments.
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gRegorLove
I will add my example once I get /comments-presentation set up again.
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gRegorLove
what is native comments?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "native comments" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/s/100X
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gRegorLove
native comments is /local_comments
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loqi.me
created /native_comments (+27) "prompted by gRegorLove https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-07-27/line/1438033988911 and dfn added by gRegorLove"
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kylewm
what's the name for a permalink url that distinguishes it from a permalink by #fragment?
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kylewm
"Known gives comments their own permalink" isn't quite right
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gRegorLove
anchor link?
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aaronpk
isn't that right?
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tantek
permalink anchor?
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kylewm
sorry I don't even know how to ask the question
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kylewm
this comment has its own separate url, it's not just an anchor on the target page
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kylewm
i don't know how to make that clear
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aaronpk
i think that means it has its own permalink
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aaronpk
or you could say literally what you juhst said
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gRegorLove
"own permalink on the same domain" perhaps
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tantek
where it's the top level item on the page?
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kylewm.com
edited /local_comments (+474) "add indieWeb Examples section with Known url"
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kylewm
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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tantek
gRegorLove: you're up next :)
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tantek.com
edited /local_comments (+83) "linky linky, see also"
(view diff)
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gRegorLove
Once I have a public URL to demonstrate them on :)
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KevinMarks
hm, so I apaprently had the same file on my machien twice as it was inside Google Drive's folder
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tantek
the (copy in the) cloud is a lie?
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KevinMarks
some kind of symlink nightmare I expect
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KevinMarks
OK, beginnings of an h-feed for instagram tags
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snarfed
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 136 karma
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tantek
is wondering what trickery KevinMarks is using to extract that feed from IG
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snarfed
(granary understands ig tags but doesn't know how to fetch by tag)
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@elimisteve
RT @dkreuz: Level 1 of #Indieweb achieved. I encourage my students to follow. http://indiewebify.me
(twitter.com/_/status/625804797396914176)
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KevinMarks
they have an API, I made that thing a while ago
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KevinMarks
just realised I shoudl mark it up properly
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KevinMarks
then I can subscribe to the indieweb tag in woodwind
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KevinMarks
tho' markup isn't right yet
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