#indiewebcamp 2015-06-10

2015-06-10 UTC
#
tantek catches up using the web IRC logs because they're so much more readable than my "native" Colloquy IRC client. suck it, native.
#
tantek ;)
endi joined the channel
#
tantek rhiaro: I've done presentations at IndieWeb / SocialWeb / Distributed Networking related events using *notes* as slides
#
tantek e.g. at the w3c social web workshop
#
tantek and even coded support for my "clicker" to work with the next/prev arrows on my notes
#
tantek that plus whitespace support so I could make bulleted lists - and it totally worked, plus each slide was in-reply-to the previous one, so when you viewed the POSSE copy of slide one on Twitter, you saw the entire presentation as a series of replies to it
#
tantek then the @-replies to the slides after that as commentary
#
KevinMarks another plaintext markup generator if anyone is interested http://zenmagiclove.com/zml/suite/mobi/suite-html5.html
#
rhiaro tantek: nice!
#
kylewm i'm reasonably suspicious of any plaintext -> HTML language that isn't Markdown, but the plain-text for this looks impressively un-code-like compared to Markdown
#
KevinMarks I'm suspicuous of markdown too
#
kylewm not that markdown is the best possible language, just that it's essentially won, and arguments against it are usually bikeshedding
#
kylewm all right, I'm down to the code-like parts
#
KevinMarks this reminds me of all these things
#
KevinMarks like YAML, they start easy and clean and get crufty fast
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KitB Forgive my rudimentary understanding of IndieAuth, but if you serve your domain over just http are you not vulnerable to mitm attacks?
#
rhiaro aaronpk ^^
#
KartikPrabhu aren't you vulnerable to mitm anyway if you serve over hhtp?
#
KitB Well yes but that doesn't provide means for people to auth as me on services
#
KevinMarks hm, they'd have to mitm your site as seen by who you're logging into though
#
KevinMarks as the auth part is done over https
#
KitB Yes
endi joined the channel
#
KitB That's the part of the process I'm questioning
#
KitB the bit where IndieAuth makes a request to my site to get my rel=me
#
kylewm KitB: indieauth is an implementation of oauth2, which delegates all the security/cryptography stuff to https
#
KitB attacker mitm-s that request and inserts their own, say, github
#
kylewm right, that would let them auth as you
#
KitB Right. Should there not be some documentation of this fact?
#
KevinMarks but you'd need to do that on indieauth.com (or wherever the auth serve is) uplink
#
KevinMarks you can't do it to you
#
KitB Yes
#
KevinMarks so that is a fairly advanced attack
#
KevinMarks it's not just poisoning your local wifi
#
KitB Nevertheless
#
KevinMarks so, it's still better than username/password auth
#
KitB Do we not generally presume the attacker can interrupt and synthesise messages?
#
KitB Oh I wouldn't deny that it's still better than username/password presuming the site is only using http
#
kylewm I think it's a good thing to add to the FAQ, it's certainly a question that is frequently asked
#
KitB But it seems to be a viable and known attack surface
#
KitB that people would want warning about
#
KitB given that the barrier to adoption if you forced https would probably be way too high
#
KitB I presume IndieAuth wouldn't equate accounts for http and https versions of a url?
#
kylewm to the source!
#
KitB struggles with his ssl cert apparently being expired
#
KitB I'm *sure* I renewed and fixed this a couple of months ago
lukebrooker joined the channel
#
kylewm KitB: you can try authing on indieauth.com with and without https, and confirm that it gives you a different identity
snarfed joined the channel
#
KitB As soon as I've figured out why I'm getting ssl errors, sure
#
KitB which will have to be tomorrow, I need to sleep
snarfed joined the channel
#
aaronpk wondering what kind of #indieweb hacks I can come up with for Amazon Echo
#
snarfed aaronpk: voice reader, speak to reply/like/repost
#
aaronpk haha that sounds terrible
#
snarfed …actually that's a kind of horrible idea
#
snarfed jinx
lukebrooker, emmak, cmhobbs and revere joined the channel
#
alexkearney.com edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+342) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
#
alexkearney.com edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+11) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
tantek joined the channel
#
GWG kylewm: It was the plugin vs theme issue
#
kylewm GWG, do you know about the e- content on ace's header? I.e. where that comes from?
wolftune, Demis, lukebrooker, jjuran, snarfed, tantek and endi joined the channel
#
GWG kylewm: I think she created a custom header.
snarfed, lukebrooker, yakker, dym_cx, eschnou, tantek, loic_m, KevinMarks_ and minsky joined the channel
#
tantek good (late) evening #indiewebcamp!
lukebrooker, LauraJ, Jihaisse and Zegnat joined the channel
#
darrenmothersele.com edited /2015/Brighton (+187) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
csarven, eschnou, paulproteus and pfefferle joined the channel
#
pfefferle !tell tantek I am using p-comment h-entry combination on notizblog.org
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
acegiak pfefferle: morning!
#
Loqi acegiak: kylewm left you a message on 6/9 at 8:14am: ok fixed some issues on my side, but now I'm having trouble parsing your replies. you probably don't want to mark up the header as e-content, and probably do want to add "p-comment h-cite" to comments http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-09/line/1433862867646
friedcell joined the channel
#
Loqi [bridgy] Asheesh Laroia RSVPed maybe to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-06-17-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/101890076819383#10100792228499585)
pfefferle_ joined the channel
#
pfefferle good morning acegiak
j12t joined the channel
#
acegiak pfefferle: Have you seen our discussion on salmentions?
#
pfefferle no, missed it
#
acegiak pfefferle: http://acegiak.net/2015/06/09/not-necessarily-threaded-comments-like-reddit-but-i-think-theres-broad-consensus-that-if-you-reply-to-a-reply-it-would-be/
#
acegiak that's my basic suggestion
#
acegiak but I don't think I have the skills to work out how to do it
LauraJ and KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
acegiak pfefferle: do you have any suggestions for ways I could start getting the comment parsing working in our wordpress ecosystem?
#
pfefferle acegiak I will have a look :)
Sebastien-L joined the channel
#
Zegnat what are salmentions?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "salmentions" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=salmentions&summary=prompted+by+Zegnat+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-10%2Fline%2F1433924738411
#
Zegnat alright, Loqi doesn’t know either. Where did that name come from?
#
Loqi grins profusely
#
acegiak Salmentions are update webmentions passed from a reply post to the original content post when the reply recieves and displays another reply to itself allowing the original post to then check the first reply, parse the second reply displayed as a comment on the first reply and then display it as a threaded reply on the original post
#
loqi.me created /Salmentions (+360) "prompted by Zegnat https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-10/line/1433924738411 and dfn added by acegiak" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
acegiak I know that's convoluted, if anyone has a good way to reword that to make it clearer that would be handy
#
acegiak it's a webmentions take on the salmon idea
#
Zegnat Ah, I think I get it now
#
acegiak it avoids having to mention the entire upstream conversation in every reply to the thread
#
Zegnat If my post is a reply-to it would pass along any webmentions of replies to whatever I originally replied to
#
Zegnat That ^ ?
#
acegiak yeah!
#
acegiak and then they could be passed further up the chain if there is one
#
acegiak plus it allows any regular filtering of mentions to kick in
#
Zegnat passing along mentions ad finitum, got it.
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
Zegnat It is clever, but I wonder how resilient it is
#
acegiak don't know
#
acegiak all I've got so far is passing the mention and I know kylewm is working on reading downstream comments which is what I don't know how to implement in the indieweb wordpress ecosystem
#
Zegnat my current in-process webmention script will be working asynchronously. So that is going to slow down any sending webmentions up stream. Maybe I should add in an exception for passing along mentions
KevinMarks__, KevinMarks_ and evalica joined the channel
#
@nxD4n twitterurl als Status posten mit #webmention kann man machen, bringt aber nix. / @diplix http://nxd4n.nixekinder.be/2015/twitterurl-als-status-posten-mit-webmention-kann-man-machen-bringt (twitter.com/_/status/608559155914387456)
petermolnar joined the channel
#
Zegnat acegiak: if someone sends a webmention to a repost, should those be passed along as well? E.g. if you like my repost, you probably want the like to show up on the original as well. That’s what Tumblr does, I think.
#
acegiak yeah, that was my thought
#
KevinMarks__ They are going to fork, yes
#
KevinMarks__ That isn't necessarily a problem - twitter copes ok
stream7 joined the channel
#
acegiak KevinMarks__: yeah I've never thought forking to much of an issue
#
Zegnat I am going to grab some more tea and see if I can’t get /Salmentions to make a little more sense on first read :) I do think passing along webmentions up-stream is a good idea
#
GWG acegiak: I need to fix comment presentation in mf2_s. How do you feel about it?
#
acegiak agreed it could use a little work. I haven't got around to tackling it with my custom css yet
adactio joined the channel
#
GWG acegiak: I might merge the Semantic Comments code I wrote and keep it both as a plugin and part of the theme.
#
acegiak also I upgraded to the latest mf2_s from github with no issues and my child theme worked perfectly
#
GWG One being very basic, the other being fancier.
#
acegiak yeah
#
GWG acegiak: What is a barebones presentation style?
#
acegiak i dont know?
#
GWG acegiak: Will try something I guess.
#
Zegnat barebones presentation for comments? Something hackernews/lobster like probably: $name, $relativeDate, $permalink: $content
#
Zegnat https://lobste.rs/s/yy5geu/a_constructive_look_at_templeos
#
GWG acegiak, you are my top user. I try to include you.
#
acegiak yeah and I really appreciate that!
#
acegiak It's awesome to be involved in the discussion
#
GWG acegiak: I'll likely fiddle a bit. The current comments piece is stock underscores.
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
GWG Right now though, I have the Western Wall
pfefferle, KevinMarks__, tvn, glennjones, friedcell and eschnou joined the channel
#
@dailypia @jademond via Webmention (twitter.com/_/status/608582479776223232)
glennjones, frzn, scoates_, pfefferle and LanceyWork joined the channel
#
LanceyWork good morning, iwc
friedcell and tvn joined the channel
#
Zegnat Good morning LanceyWork
tvn_, tvn, nedorito, cmhobbs and LauraJ joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] Amy Guy posted 'IndieWebCamp Edinburgh What? Two-day practical unconference about decentralised social web, owning your data and online presence, and ...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Edinburgh (http://rhiaro.co.uk//2015/06/indiewebcamp-edinburgh-2)
mlncn, hmans, LauraJ, glennjones, snarfed, KartikPrabhu and wolftune joined the channel
#
rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+30) "/* Apprentices */" (view diff)
#
rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+0) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
danlyke_, danlyke, Pierre-O, pfefferle, fourtonfish, eschnou, sanduhrs, nloadholtes, tvn_, cmhobbs, ttepasse, jjuran__, KevinMarks_ and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu why is salmentions a new word. It seems to be just a webmention
chalettu joined the channel
#
csarven No idea.. but I wonder if "Sal" is an abbreviation of "Salmon" the Protocol.
#
KartikPrabhu it is supposed to be
#
KartikPrabhu what is salmentions?
#
Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/Salmentions
#
petermolnar ugh threaded replies
#
rhiaro The sal is from salmon, but I don't know why it needs a different name
#
kylewm petermolnar: not like nested threads, just a full flat chain of replies and replies to replies, etc.
#
KartikPrabhu I mean the actual problem of threaded replies is not the notification protocol but designing a good UX for them
#
KartikPrabhu threaded replies are notoriously hard to display reasonably
#
petermolnar flat is ok :)
#
KartikPrabhu ok if it is flat then what is the problem?
#
kylewm there is no problem, salmentions works great :P
#
KartikPrabhu how does indicate that a reply is a reply-to-reply and not reply-to-post
#
KartikPrabhu ?
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: you mean webmentions work great
#
kylewm.com edited /reply-thread (-8) "/* Receiving downstream comments */" (view diff)
#
rhiaro salmentions is *notifying* the original post that one of it's replies has a reply, right? ActivityPump (and pump.io?) basically work this way. As opposed to *only* notifying the post you're actually replying to, which means the original post would have to check all its replies for replies if it wanted to display them
#
petermolnar KartikPrabhu should there be a difference between reply-to-reply vs reply-to-post? I don't think so, keep it simple, clean, flat and treat them all as replies
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: see if this is better https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread#Receiving_downstream_comments
#
kylewm it requires a surprisingly minimal changes on the receiver and sender to pass comments back up repy chain
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu should we propagate likes, reposts, rsvps ? etc...
#
KartikPrabhu how should a like-to-reply be displayed?
#
aaronpk this isn't about threading/nesting or even UI
#
aaronpk it's about notifying of comments on a comment
#
aaronpk to be able to have twitter-style reply chains
#
aaronpk because nobody here does that yet. bridgy is faking it for us.
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: there is nothing new about notifying comments over webmention
#
aaronpk yes there is
#
pfefferle aaronpk I am doing threaded webmentions
#
aaronpk threading?
#
KartikPrabhu you mean "send another webmention when you get a reply" ?
#
aaronpk this isn't about threading
#
pfefferle I allow webmentions on comments
#
KartikPrabhu aaronpk: what's it about then?
tvn joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu I mean other than webmention
#
aaronpk given post A, there is an in-reply-to post B. someone then posts C which is in-reply-to B. post A doesn't know about it yet, so how best to notify post A about post C
#
pfefferle ah ok, that doesn’t work on my site yet
#
aaronpk a common case of that is when post A and C are by the same person even
#
KartikPrabhu send a webmention
#
KartikPrabhu what's salmention doing that isn't webmention?
#
KartikPrabhu the hard part is what to do with such a webmention
#
aaronpk KartikPrabhu: what are the source and target of said webmention?
#
kylewm it's actually not hard
#
aaronpk the best webmention gives us is having B notify A that B is updated, and A has to recognize that the "update" is actually a new comment
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: it categorically *is* a webmention; it notifies the A of an update to B
sammachin joined the channel
#
csarven ahh.. you guys should look up for some ideas/implementation that we did in StatusNet.
#
KartikPrabhu yes. B has been updated with a p-comment from C so A can just parse that
#
KartikPrabhu yes.
#
KartikPrabhu so salmention is not saying anything new
#
kylewm lol, KartikPrabhu you are being kind of reductionist
#
csarven OStatus
#
petermolnar csarven can you please point us to some resources?
#
kylewm nobody had implemented it yet with webmentions, so it is new
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
pfefferle we had a discussion about that a while ago, I am searching for it in the wiki
#
KartikPrabhu kylewm: salmention is not saying what to do other than send a webmention
#
KartikPrabhu anyway
#
kylewm csarven: the tongue-in-cheek name "salmention" is a nod to Salmon which iirc is part of Ostatus
#
aaronpk KartikPrabhu: I don't see anything on /Webmention that describes how to do that, but I agree it should just be part of webmention and not called a new thing
#
kylewm KartikPrabhu: wrong it is saying for B to send a webmention, *and* for A to parse the webmention for comments, and interpret those comments
#
aaronpk it also assumes A adds microformat markup when displaying comments, which needs to be explicitly called out
#
KartikPrabhu ok I don't care to debate semantics
#
aaronpk if we want to add a separate header or make a new page for this, I would suggest calling it something descriptive like "Downstream Webmentions" or "Handling Reply Chains" instead of making up a new jargon term, as cute as "salmention" is
#
rhiaro +1 ^
#
kylewm aaronpk: https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-thread#Receiving_downstream_comments
#
aaronpk perfect
#
kylewm (I have a feeling salmentions is going to stick anyway because of everyone's apparent gut revulsion when you say "threading")
#
aaronpk anybody opposed to me switching that page and wording from "reply thread" to "reply chain"?
#
kylewm go for it
#
pfefferle aaronpk another source https://indiewebcamp.com/comment-propagation
#
kylewm pfefferle++
#
Loqi pfefferle has 11 karma
#
aaronpk i knew there was history there
#
aaronpk pfefferle++
#
Loqi pfefferle has 12 karma
#
aaronpk that's from 2 years ago
#
pfefferle yes ;)
#
pfefferle there was also a heavy discussion on the irc
#
aaronparecki.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[reply-thread]] to [[reply-chain]] over redirect" (view diff)
#
aaronpk wait we also have https://indiewebcamp.com/context-thread
#
aaronpk oh I see.. that is not at all the same
ben_thatmustbeme joined the channel
#
aaronpk well, the opposite of the reply chain, it's about showing the reply context all the way up the chain
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: can I take you out of the "reply chain" page because your implementation is actually about recursive reply contexts?
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
notizblog.org moved /WordPress_Examples to /WordPress/Examples "more consistent"
#
notizblog.org moved /WordPress_Data to /WordPress/Data "more consistent"
#
csarven heh.. StatusNet called it "conversation" - because you know, "how" it worked didn't have to be part of the name.
#
notizblog.org edited /WordPress (+0) "/* People using WordPress */" (view diff)
#
notizblog.org edited /WordPress/Development (+0) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
#
kylewm csarven: I think that sort of human-centric naming would be welcome here :) (though "conversation" may be a little overly broad?)
#
ben_thatmustbeme what is reply chain
#
Loqi A reply thread (AKA reply chain) is a threaded list of replies, and replies to those replies, displayed under the original post, as part of the context-thread https://indiewebcamp.com/reply-chain
#
ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: mine is both
#
aaronpk oh?
#
ben_thatmustbeme oh, no, i see
#
ben_thatmustbeme you are correct, remove me from reply-chain
#
aaronpk cool
#
aaronpk i assume to get your reply context, you just crawl up the chain fetching all of them?
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes (if I don't already have them) and I also follow multiple paths if they are reply-to multiple posts
#
csarven kylewm Subjective. Terms where most people would have some understanding of are good choices IMO. What's a "chain" - is it hierarchical / hyper-graph.. ? What's a "reply"?
#
csarven "thread"??
#
kylewm yep, i was agreeing with you
#
petermolnar csarven if you take a look at 'Files' named application in the current, different linux DEs you can end up not knowing which software you're referring to because they all name it the same
#
petermolnar I'd prefer a contextual name
#
aaronparecki.com edited /reply-chain (-278) "de-emphasize "thread" since that term implies nesting, remove ben since his implementation is actually [[recursive reply-contexts]]" (view diff)
#
aaronpk i don't think any chains are hierarchical?
#
ben_thatmustbeme yes, i only show direct replies, not threaded replies
#
ben_thatmustbeme or even replies to replies
#
aaronpk i find it interesting that facebook added support for one-level deep threading of comments
#
petermolnar ( "You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here." - so no, chains are not hierarchical )
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, i saw that a month ago and was rather shocked honestly
#
petermolnar I wonder why 1 level
#
aaronpk also i think only the post author can do that
tantek joined the channel
#
petermolnar nope, anyone can do it
#
aaronpk orly!
#
aaronpk ah there's a "reply" link if you're not the author, otherwise it's a text box
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, odd one level, but i understand, it gets way too messy if you start to have a full tree of threaded conversations
#
tantek agreed - the slashdot / reddit style of trees of arbitrary depth become unwieldly
#
Loqi tantek: pfefferle left you a message 8 hours, 10 minutes ago: I am using p-comment h-entry combination on notizblog.org http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-10/line/1433922247517
#
tantek 1-2 levels seems about right
#
tantek let's start gathering examples of that then
#
tantek what is p-comment?
#
Loqi https://indiewebcamp.com/p-comment
j12t joined the channel
#
petermolnar keep it thread-less, that's all; no need for levels in comments
#
petermolnar although I do miss the old bulletin board style reply to where it would put in a note which entry you were referring to
#
petermolnar or an option to quote
#
tantek petermolnar: another possibility is to allow arbitrary threading, and then just flatten them into a single list by time order, which is what Twitter does
#
tantek if you view the "original" tweet that everything replied to first, you see all immediate, secondary, tertiary etc. replies
#
tantek but no distinction in presentation
#
tantek that's the "simple" way of displaying salmentioned comments as it were
#
petermolnar which is basically the old bulletin board way of things, isn't it?
#
tantek not sure - got a screenshot to share?
#
Loqi [mention] Andreas Petersell posted 'Retweeten mit Known (withknown.com) 2 min read Was ist Known...' linking to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://www.petersell.com/2015/retweeten-mit-known-withknowncom)
#
csarven If the history of ideas and innovation teaches us anything, they don't happen in sequence, hierarchies or with arbitrary depths. They come and go out of nowhere. That's what you can observe in the real-world.
#
petermolnar tantek I do not have a screenshot, but I'll dig some old sites up later
#
tantek csarven, nah, "come and go out of nowhere" just means you're not doing your homework. "nowhere" = you just haven't looked hard enough. the history of ideas and innovations more often shows derivative works, mashups, etc. evolution of ideas
#
csarven tantek :) History disagrees with you.
#
tantek if you think something came from nowhere, don't assume that, ask where it came from, and perhaps someone else will be able to point out the origins
#
tantek csarven - good luck coming up with examples to prove your case
#
tantek history disagrees with you csarven - like I said you're just not looking or asking hard enough
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
tantek I'll just give you one simple citation to keep you busy, re: innovations. Nearly all patent applications cite previous inventions that they're building on.
#
tantek feel free to use the patent search engine of your choice. good luck finding a single patent that doesn't cite prior work it's based on.
#
csarven tantek The "reasonable" or "simple enough" explanation is that whatever initiated some idea is not always absolutely identifiable in time and space. If you always want to do that, you have a halting problem.
tvn joined the channel
#
csarven Any way.. I don't mean to get in the way of an actual implementation in which some of you are working on. Just dropping some thoughts - ignore/use as you see fit :)
#
csarven I should have said "don't always happen" instead of "don't happen". :S
#
Loqi I agree
stream7 joined the channel
#
aaronpk Jeena: (and anyone else in pdx) feel free to come to our open house today! http://calagator.org/events/1250468351 (sneak peak of IWC 2015 venue!)
#
aaronpk of course calagator was down for the 2 seconds when i posted that link
#
aaronpk http://calagator.org/events/1250468351
#
Loqi Esri R&D Open House on Wednesday, Jun 10, 1:00pm at Esri Portland R&D Center
#
tantek csarven, I accept your surrender with an "explanation" in response to my citation of real world examples. :)
#
csarven Just when I'm out.. they pull me back in.
#
tantek csarven: that's what you get for trolling with theoreticals ;)
#
csarven If we are going to look at "history of ideas", I would propose a better example than the patents. You know, people were coming up with stuff before that.
#
kodfabrik.se edited /Micropub (-2) "Change link to IndieAuth protocol to point to the new separate page" (view diff)
yakker and KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
Loqi [mention] Peter Molnar posted 'Every year, at least two times, I try to revive some old, forgotten corners of the internet; those that materialized in forms of chat rooms ...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions (https://petermolnar.eu/journal/exodus)
#
Loqi [mention] Peter Molnar posted 'Every year, at least two times, I try to revive some old, forgotten corners of the internet; those that materialized in forms of chat rooms ...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions (https://petermolnar.eu/journal/exodus)
#
Jeena oh aaronpk that is not far away from where I am, I'm in the Pearl District
#
aaronpk sweet!
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
adactio.com edited /2015/Brighton (+207) "/* Participating */" (view diff)
#
tantek ^^^ aaronpk !!!
arlen and gRegorLove joined the channel
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: you mentioned publishing data on creating / editing / deleting posts
#
ben_thatmustbeme channel hopping yay
#
Loqi woot
#
tantek there are two ways of approaching this
#
tantek the direct way, and the meta way
#
ben_thatmustbeme for information i currently publish http://ben.thatmustbe.me/activity which is for notifications to me, so incoming, not outgoing
#
ben_thatmustbeme no h-entry's in that h-feed have actual URLs
#
ben_thatmustbeme they are effemeral and will fall off over time, they are not the posts themselves, they can have different content. This is the same as on pretty much every silo (facebook/G+ Notifications menu, or "view all notifications")
#
tantek hilariously related: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theorem_of_software_engineering
#
nedorito ben have you read "the practice of system and network administration" ?
#
tantek if that's the case "same as on … every silo …" then you've documented those right?
#
nedorito it seems to be highly recommended but it hasn't been updated since 2007
#
ben_thatmustbeme i had been writing them up on the wiki, don't have screen shots though
#
tantek nedorito - does the author of that work have their own website that they administrate? if not, I say ignore it ;)
#
tantek what are notifications?
#
Loqi notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) https://indiewebcamp.com/notifications
#
ben_thatmustbeme http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications#Silo_Examples
#
tantek cool - screenshots there would be good
#
tantek I'll add one
#
@LukasRosenstock Following the Yahoo Pipes shutdown, @davewiner writes about publishing for the "long web": http://scripting.com/2015/06/07/whatChangesAtMediumAndYahooPipesTeachUsAboutThePersistenceOfTheWeb.html?utm_content=buffer1771c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/608676329488285698)
#
ben_thatmustbeme also http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications#Platform_Examples are technically the same, just showing them from the mobile UIs instead
#
tantek … adding IG
#
ben_thatmustbeme the interesting bit is that there are no permalinks to those, so i am going to do an h-feed where the only u-url entries point to the post that is being edited / created / commented on. don't know if that will confuse others or not
#
voxpelli aaronpk: are there any reference implementations of client and/or server flow of the IndieAuth protocol? not seeing any at https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuthProtocol
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: that "no permalinks" assertion is why we need screenshots
#
tantek hard to really believe that without seeing a screenshot and dissecting its parts
#
ben_thatmustbeme screenshots don't really prove no-permalinks :P
#
aaronpk voxpelli: Quill is a good implementation example
#
ben_thatmustbeme Linked In is another that should be added, it does the same
#
aaronpk of a client
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: the way to prove that with a screenshot is to explain everything in the screenshot, and when it is clear none of them are permalinks, QED
#
aaronpk I cna't add indieauth.com as a server exmaple until I fix the bugs :)
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: hence the request for screenshots, and analysis of parts thereof.
#
aaronpk voxpelli: i think quill uses this library for a lot of the discovery tho https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php
#
ben_thatmustbeme tantek, can't prove inability to click on things though
#
voxpelli aaronpk: cool, always good to have some code to look at in addition to flow charts :)
loic_m joined the channel
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: you describe what each "hotspot" (touch/click sensitve area) does
#
aaronpk and pretty good docs in that readme
#
tantek again, when none of them result in a permalink, your proof is done.
#
ben_thatmustbeme nitpicks
#
ben_thatmustbeme crud, i deleted the screenshots i took previously
#
KevinMarks__ Are there some in messina's flickr archive?
#
KevinMarks__ The thing about going upstream and downstream with replies is that there is some expectation of semi overlapping publics
#
KevinMarks__ And eventually you do need selective display of comments depending on something other than sequence
#
tantek what are overlapping publics?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "overlapping publics" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=overlapping+publics&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-10%2Fline%2F1433955301137
#
tantek KevinMarks ^^^ that's jargony enough to demand a dfn
#
ben.thatmustbe.me uploaded /File:facebooknotifications.jpg ""view all notifications page on facebook with expanded notifcations menu bar and view of sidebar notifications""
mlncn joined the channel
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /notification (+22) "/* Facebook */" (view diff)
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
tantek oops - I got distracted too long by the CSS telcon to save my /notfiication edits :/
#
ben_thatmustbeme feel free to roll my edit back
#
ben_thatmustbeme i can easily re-add, i actually have more to add anyway
#
KevinMarks_ Overlapping publics are based on the theory that each work creates its own public, and that a response will likely have a different public. See http://epeus.blogspot.com/2008/04/digital-publics-conversations-and.html
#
loqi.me created /Overlapping_publics (+243) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-10/line/1433955301137 and dfn added by KevinMarks_" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
tantek attempts to merge ben_thatmustbeme's edits
#
ben_thatmustbeme all i did was add the screenshot
#
ben_thatmustbeme I am waiting until you finish edit to do more
#
tantek.com edited /notification (+710) "/* Silo Examples */ linky linky, screenshots needed, add IG" (view diff)
#
tantek ok
#
tantek ben_thatmustbeme: your FB screenshot shows *three* notifications/feeds!
#
ben.thatmustbe.me edited /notification (+711) "/* Facebook */ description of facebook screenshot, add linkedin" (view diff)
#
tantek the all notifications page, the globe notifications drop down, and the sidebar of friends activities
#
ben_thatmustbeme tantek, I know, wanted to get them all in there
#
ben_thatmustbeme I still have the original so i can always break it down to multiples
#
tantek there's also the difference between "activity" or "responses" feeds, and actual *notifications* which are what the dfn says
#
tantek what is a notification?
#
Loqi notifications in the context of the IndieWeb refer to all forms and ways that an independent web site can receive a message indicating something of interest (server notifications), and potentially relay that information (preferably in realtime) to one or more devices used by the owner of that site (client notifications) https://indiewebcamp.com/notification
#
tantek that is, I think notification implies push (lowercase) of a sort
#
tantek whereas what FB calls "Your Notifications" is actually a "recent activity" page
#
ben_thatmustbeme tantek, FB calls it notifications without push ability
#
tantek I'm saying that's a misuse (dilution) of the term
#
ben_thatmustbeme i think "notifications" without push is fine. Many sites when you log in you get "notifications"
#
ben_thatmustbeme it predates notifications as push i would say
#
tantek does it?
#
tantek weird, Twitter used to call them replies, then reactions/responses, and has switched to the "Notifications" verbage too
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
tantek though that's likely their "copy-FB-design" trend :/
#
tantek ever since they added the big banner images at the top
#
ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that really was pretty obvious facebook copy
elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
aaronpk they did that when they made it show things other than just replies, right?
#
KevinMarks well, twitter was all notifications originally, when ti was SMS
#
KevinMarks the notification was impleid
#
KevinMarks but SMS is push
#
aaronpk well, SMS is push until you get down to the protocol level ;-)
#
tantek aaronpk, no they changed from replies to reactions
#
tantek wish I had screenshots of that
#
aaronpk ah
#
tantek they're not the only ones to have the reactions/responses/interactions bikeshed problem
#
tantek but at some point I think they realized they have a fraction of the users of FB and decided to adopt FB features / text conventions
#
tantek anyway - ironically, Instagram (owned by FB) still calls it "ACTIVITY" in their UI
#
tantek it is "simpler" UI of a sort to call both things "notifications"
#
tantek *only* if they reflect the same set of things
#
tantek that is the set of things you're pushed about (perhaps filtered due to personal / OS prefs), and the page showing all the things you were (or could have been) pushed
#
tantek what's nice about that (using "notifications" for both the pushes and the page showing recent pushed things or things that could have been pushed) is that it eliminates the abstract term "activity"
#
bret interesting way to deal with harassment https://twitter.com/kvalnews/status/608687616259682305
#
@KVALnews South Eugene HS in lockdown, per loudspeaker message on campus. Police investigating 'something' in the area, per EPD https://twitter.com/KVALnews/status/608687616259682305/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/608687616259682305)
#
bret aw crap wrong tweet
#
bret https://twitter.com/ameliagreenhall/status/608688687484764160
#
@ameliagreenhall In summary, to cut down on harassment in your mentions: http://www.theblockbot.com/sign_up/connect.php + https://blocktogether.org/ (twitter.com/_/status/608688687484764160)
#
aaronpk nice
LauraJ joined the channel
#
tantek bret - perhaps add those as silo enhancements or something to /block ?
#
bret.io edited /block (+104) "/* Twitter */ Added external tools list" (view diff)
#
bret noted
#
@caasn Mal die Webmentions in so'n WordPress-Blog eingebaut. Bin ja davon als Teil des Indiewebs nicht sonderlich überzeugt bisher. (twitter.com/_/status/608693786714214400)
#
tantek Loqi, translate de->en
#
kylewm per google ... "
#
kylewm Built time the Webmentions in so'n WordPress blog. Am convinced not particularly as part of Indiewebs previously."
#
tantek so'n ?!?
#
tantek oh that was a passthru
#
www.kitb.pw edited /2015/Edinburgh/Guest_List (+201) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
#
aaronpk so'n is a contraction of "so ein" (such a)
#
aaronpk Bing says "Even the Webmentions built in to a WordPress blog. Not too convinced so far am Yes as part of Indiewebs."
#
aaronpk Google: "Times the Webmentions in such a WordPress blog installed. I am indeed convinced not particularly as part of Indiewebs previously."
#
aaronpk any native speakers want to do better? :)
#
@TMiPad Mal die Webmentions in so'n WordPress-Blog eingebaut. Bin ja davon als Teil des Indiewebs nicht sonderlich überzeugt bisher. (twitter.com/_/status/608698244445687808)
#
tantek anyone here doing / posting anything related to music?
#
aaronpk barnaby is for sure
#
aaronpk i have a couple songs on my site http://aaronparecki.com/music
#
aaronpk i'm planning on breaking them out into permalinks for each track, like soundcloud
#
tantek Consider submitting a speaking proposal for SF Music Tech Summit 2015: https://sfmusictech.wufoo.com/forms/r1jkqagx100z417/ - re: indieweb and music
#
tantek !tell barnabywalters,benwerd since you do things with music/audio on the indieweb, consider submitting a speaking proposal for SF Music Tech Summit 2015: https://sfmusictech.wufoo.com/forms/r1jkqagx100z417/
#
Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
aaronpk interesting!
#
tantek I've spoken there before - it's a good crowd, and the organizers are very nice people
#
tantek two things that make a difference to me in terms of where I choose to speak
#
tantek also KevinMarks is a near constant attendee and will likely be there to noterlive tweet your talk (should you propose/get accepted) :)
#
harryreeder.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+4) "/* To-do */ Add link to remote participation page for future reference" (view diff)
#
tantek the UK is really getting a lot of attention for IndieWebCamps!
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
aaronpk wow yeah, I don't know how to catch up
bengo joined the channel
#
tantek personally ask every past IWC PDX participant as well as HWC participants
#
tantek start with that
#
tantek personal messaging has a strong impact
#
tantek personal invitations that is
bjorn_ joined the channel
#
aaronpk k sent a few messages, will continue
#
tantek I will as well
#
tantek the more personal invitations, the better, and hearing from more people only helps people feel wanted / included
#
tantek s/feel/feel more
#
Loqi tantek meant to say: the more personal invitations, the better, and hearing from more people only helps people feel more wanted / included
bengo and dym_cx joined the channel
#
dym.cx edited /User:Dym.cx () "(-1691) moved the origin story to my site, left a tldr of it" (view diff)
j12t, glennjones, KevinMarks_ and eschnou joined the channel
#
dym_cx #indieauth, cant pass with a key from keybase.io, "The key used to sign the challenge was not the key at https://keybase.io/dym_cx/key.asc"
#
kylewm dym_cx: did you include the full clearsigned challenge text, (i.e. not just the signature) when authing?
#
kylewm I use a key from keybase, and it worked last time i tried
#
aaronpk hmm. and you're sure you're signing with the correct key?
#
kylewm (still works)
elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
dym_cx i only have one stored on keybase and i included full message (tried only pgp-signatyre part: "The signature was invalid. Please try again.")
#
elf-pavlik what is internationalization?
#
Loqi Internationalization (AKA internationalisation, i18n.) is the process of adapting software/content to various languages https://indiewebcamp.com/internationalization
#
elf-pavlik could someone please point me to IndieWeb deploymens wich use languages other than english? i can only think of http://christopheducamp.com/
#
tantek hmm, might be good to list them as IndieWeb Examples somewhere
#
aaronpk there's a whole host of german ones now, check out the 2015/Germany guest list
#
tantek should such a list be provided in the native language of the deployment(s)? or on a default en page?
#
elf-pavlik thanks aaronpk
#
elf-pavlik does microformas provide something in direction of multilingual Natural Language Values proposed by AS2.0? http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html#naturalLanguageValues
#
elf-pavlik a year ago i used multilingual support in JSON-LD for http://matera.unmonastery.org and it worked pretty well
#
tantek elf-pavlik: ah - that's good reason to look at such indieweb examples
#
tantek elf-pavlik: did any code consume or do anything with the multilingual support you published? or what do you mean by "worked pretty well" ?
#
tantek historically, explicit language designations have had very poor adoption in consuming code, and frankly, mostly been noisy/wrong in published markup
#
tantek not saying we shouldn't try, just that history has shown that naive efforts are fruitless
#
tantek so we should be deliberate about only proposing multilingual markup that has a decent chance of consuming code actually doing something with (a concrete existing use-case / user-story)
#
tantek otherwise we're fooling ourselves that we're helping anything at all
#
tantek "i18n-washing" as it were
tilgovi joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik tantek, to my understanding currently OAuth scopes used by micropub also don't give clear way for providing multilingular labels meant for humans (rather than machine oriented strings - english only or even opaque) https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/11#issuecomment-108605762
#
tantek that makes even less sense
#
elf-pavlik how authrization server can provide information about requested scopes to a person in a language of this persons choice?
#
KevinMarks elf-pavlik: the prior art here is Stephanie Booth's multilingual wordpress extensions
#
elf-pavlik KevinMarks, could you please drop a link?
#
KevinMarks http://climbtothestars.org/wordpress/basic-bilingual/
#
elf-pavlik thx
#
aaronpk The authorization server is expected to turn the scope value into something human readable, in whatever language
#
aaronpk Check out how github does it
#
tantek KevinMarks: Stephanie's site provides information about requested OAuth scopes to a person in a language of this persons choice?!?
#
elf-pavlik so each scope needs a way to have mapping to human readable labels in any number of languages
#
tantek what is a scope?
#
Loqi In OAuth terminology, scope is a way to limit what parts of your account are accessible by third-party applications https://indiewebcamp.com/scope
#
KevinMarks no, sorry, thst was the earlier point about how to markup multilingual text
#
tantek elf-pavlik: can you add to /scope#FAQ ? "how authrization server can provide information about requested scopes to a person in a language of this persons choice?" [sic]
#
elf-pavlik should I add this link to this wordpress plugin to http://indiewebcamp.com/internationalization ?
#
tantek perhaps listing Github as an example of good behavior
#
aaronpk GitHub takes a scope like "repo:delete" and turns it into a sentence explaining the privilege the app will have
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, even just for multilingual labels using URIs for scopes can make it easier to share common translations, just as this demo uses wikidata for food names http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/demo/menu/
#
tantek elf-pavlik: perhaps start /internationalization#IndieWeb_Examples with the Stephanie Booth example?
#
aaronpk I don't know what that menu link is supposed to demonstrate but it just looks like barely legible text on a very colorful background
j12t joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, it uses qlabel to fetch natural language strings for food indentified by URIs http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/
bengo joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik translating food on wikidate will automaticaly enable software using it to show newly translated name
#
elf-pavlik s/wikidate/wikidata/
#
Loqi elf-pavlik meant to say: translating food on wikidata will automaticaly enable software using it to show newly translated name
#
aaronpk So it's a central repository of translations?
LCyrin joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik if at some point, we come close to situation where each Resource Server (e.g. indie website) uses dedicated Authorization Server may make a lot of sense
#
tantek does this software actually exist? or is this a wish for such software?
#
elf-pavlik better central repository of translations than central authorization server like indieauth.com ;)
#
tantek that is, software "to show newly translated name" ?
#
aaronpk I dunno, I doubt everyone will want their own authorization server to phone home when they log in somewhere
#
tantek yeah I agree
#
elf-pavlik tantek, http://googleknowledge.github.io/qlabel/ fetches translation from http://www.wikidata.org
#
tantek this sounds like making it too complicated for simple publishing use-cases
#
aaronpk Also please stop misrepresenting IndieAuth.com as a central server
#
tantek elf-pavlik: perhaps add that as googleknowledge thing as a Services example on /internationalization
#
elf-pavlik did someone perform crawl of indie website to analyze discovered autorization servers ?
#
elf-pavlik needs to edit few wiki pages now :)
#
elf-pavlik s/indie website/indie websites/
#
tantek is not sure what argument elf-pavlik is trying to make
#
elf-pavlik i tried to say that central repository of translations can work pretty well, while i would discourage central authorization server used by everyone in the decentralized network
#
tantek i'm not sure it's necessary in either case
#
tantek either way, I wouldn't worry about such problems unless you have specific citations
#
elf-pavlik i might try to perform crawl to get statistics on how many indie websites use tokens.indieauth.com as their authorzation server
#
tantek or, lacking citations, if you have worries, ask in the form of a question
#
aaronpk tokens.indieauth.com is not an authorization server
#
aaronpk It is a token endpoint, and a relatively simple one at that, which also includes instructions on how to build a token endpoint and move off of it
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, might got wrong how you separated indieauth.com and tokens.indieauth.com
#
tantek watches IWC 2015 Brighton grow to 27(!) participants
#
aaronpk Have you set up micropub and used something like Quill yet?
#
tantek elf-pavlik: is this one of your top itches?
#
elf-pavlik does anyone see problem with centralized repository of (default) translations for commonly used oauth scopes? one can also choose to create custom translations to not use default ones
#
tantek elf-pavlik: are you using centralized repository of (default) translations for commonly used oauth scopes on your own site?
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, i will most likely use delegated feed which will support micropub API
#
@b_antunes Tantek Celik, "Why We Need the IndieWeb", #PDF14 - YouTube https://www.youtube.com/ (twitter.com/_/status/608727109180227585)
#
elf-pavlik on my self hosted homepage will most likely deploy REST based API
#
aaronpk It is worth going trough the setup tutorial on Quill
#
elf-pavlik also this delegated feed can take care of HTML+Microformats
#
aaronpk It walks you through all the steps and tells you how to build them, and offers hosted auth server and token endpoint of you just want to skip that part for now
#
aaronpk Then you will understand how the two pieces work together
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, will take a look at it!
#
loqi.me created /REST-based (+167) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik needs to capture those 3 things on http://indiewebcamp.com/internationalization
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, last question: do you have links to examples of indie websites which have access control on HTML pages?
#
elf-pavlik i looked at http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts
#
tantek elf-pavlik: there are bunch of documented use-cases for that, yes private posts is one of them
#
tantek another is /contacts
#
elf-pavlik can one read those private posts using one of existing readers?
#
tantek what is communication?
#
Loqi communication in the context of the indieweb refers to using your personal website as a starting point and potentially way for people to communicate with you https://indiewebcamp.com/communication
#
elf-pavlik aaronpk, kylewm can readers you work on read private posts?
#
kylewm elf-pavlik: no
#
kylewm unless the post is "private" in that it just has a hard-to-guess URL
#
elf-pavlik any exprimens with protecting such posts by requiring a Bearer token ?
#
tantek that sounds like a question to add to /private_posts#FAQ
#
tantek elf-pavlik: you're falling behind on actually following up on wiki edits
#
elf-pavlik has wiki edits on todo for the rest of the night :D
#
tantek could you please start following up on your own requests instead of changing subjects/topic constantly?
#
tantek no I mean, do them serially
#
poka no. i will also never use emaill. and i'll offer criticizms of proprietary/centralized non-indie websites like twitter
#
elf-pavlik backtracking now to do edits
#
tantek when you start a subject with questions here in IRC, and people help answer it, please respect their time by spending your own time to write them *immediately*
#
tantek instead of going off to a new subject
#
poka i tend to think of it as a stack. eventually the tangent will return
#
tantek poka, heh, in practice people tend to not get around to it, hence the reminder
#
tantek also it's a fair trade - if someone wants others to spend the time to provide advice, they should trade with their own time in writing up the questions (and any answers given)
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /private_posts (+65) "/* FAQ */ += does any [[reader]] supports reading private posts?" (view diff)
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /internationalization (+181) "/* Services */ += Wikidata & qLabel" (view diff)
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /internationalization (+72) "/* Software */ += Basic Bilingual (WordPress plugin)" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik kylewm, does hard-to-guess URL == Capability URL? http://w3ctag.github.io/capability-urls/
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik i just noticed that Capability URL draft links to http://waterken.sourceforge.net/web-key/ mentioned in https://github.com/converspace/webmention/issues/36
frzn joined the channel
#
kylewm elf-pavlik: yes, same thing
#
bret duuuuuuuude: https://iwantmyname.com/blog/2012/03/ddns-dynamic-dns-service-on-your-own-domain.html my domain host supports dynamic dns
#
bret woop
#
tantek neat
#
tantek you know the next question
#
bret yes I'm going to host stuff for my own site with it
#
bret just got a raspi
#
bret 2
Erkan_Yilmaz joined the channel
#
loqi.me created /REST-ish (+93) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
#
wwelves.org perpetual-tripper created /capability-urls (+265) "dfn + link to W3C darft TAG finding" (view diff)
#
elf-pavlik tantek, I will deploy proper REST with *hypermedia* thanks to just released https://github.com/bergos/hydra-middleware :)
#
elf-pavlik what is SOAP?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SOAP" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SOAP&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-10%2Fline%2F1433969408941
#
KevinMarks SOAP is Spectacularly Overblown Architectural Posturing see [[WS-Deathstar]]
#
loqi.me created /SOAP (+104) "prompted by elf-pavlik https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-06-10/line/1433969408941 and dfn added by KevinMarks" (view diff)
#
Loqi ok
#
elf-pavlik :D
#
bret lol
#
tantek KevinMarks++
#
Loqi KevinMarks has 117 karma
#
elf-pavlik what is RPC?
#
Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "RPC" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=RPC&summary=prompted+by+elf-pavlik+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-06-10%2Fline%2F1433969828200
#
elf-pavlik https://indiewebcamp.com/REST#Remote_Procedure_Calls
#
elf-pavlik I don't see RPC mentioned on http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub neither Micropub in RPC section on REST page. Does Micropub not qualify as RPC API? "RPC implementations typically target a single endpoint and use POST to send parameters to that endpoint, in essence using HTTP as a tunnel for a custom protocol."
KevinMarks__ joined the channel
#
elf-pavlik next todo, check out Quill walk through
sivoais joined the channel
#
rhiaro.co.uk edited /2015/Edinburgh (+322) "/* Sponsors */" (view diff)
jansauer, bengo, j12t, mlncn and elf-pavlik joined the channel
#
@hadleybeeman So @emojli is done, but kudos to the team for the elegant Download Your Messages tool, HTML or JSON. Take note, other services. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/608754029783605248)
frzn_ and bengo joined the channel
#
gRegorLove Do we really need /REST, /REST-ish, and /REST-based ?
frzn joined the channel
#
Jeena "need" is such a strong word
#
kylewm Loqi amplifies snark...
#
Loqi who, me?
#
kylewm no, the other Loqi
#
tantek what is REST?
#
Loqi Representational State Transfer (REST) is a software design architecture used to communicate state between two systems https://indiewebcamp.com/REST
#
tantek gRegorLove: in answer to your question, yes, since all three terms have real world usage/citations
#
tantek jargon to be defined as it were
#
tantek oh look, right there on /REST is a brief summary of RPC which is what elf-pavlik was looking for earlier
#
tantek thanks JenMontes
#
tantek.com edited /REST (+1203) "add why stub, how stub, indieweb examples (none) stub, Not quite REST, criticism sections" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /static_sites (+25) "r" (view diff)
#
KevinMarks you could have a WebDAV api to the server fielsytem for your static site
#
tantek.com edited /REST (+106) "tie dfn to indieweb" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /REST (+1) "typo" (view diff)
#
tantek what is WebDAV?
#
Loqi WebDAV is an HTTP-based protocol used to create and edit files on a server https://indiewebcamp.com/WebDAV
#
tantek.com edited /WebDAV (+90) "linky and expand dfn to note indieweb adoption" (view diff)
#
tantek.com created /RPC (+41) "r" (view diff)
#
gRegorLove :shrug: I just thought if it's one sentence, it could probably be captured on / redirected to /REST
#
tantek doesn't work for the same reason that my attempt to redirect RPC didn't work
#
tantek what is RPC?
#
Loqi Representational State Transfer (REST) is a software design architecture used to communicate state between two systems that has no current IndieWeb adoption, likely due to its fundamental incompatibility with static sites https://indiewebcamp.com/RPC
#
tantek for terms that are actually different, we really do need separate (if short) pages
#
gRegorLove What is REST-ish?
#
Loqi REST-ish is like REST-based but even more overtly "just HTTP" https://indiewebcamp.com/REST-ish
#
gRegorLove Ok what is REST-based?
Guerillero|Away joined the channel
#
Loqi REST-based is typically marketing bulshytt that basically means HTTP plus buzzword marketing of REST without actually being RESTful https://indiewebcamp.com/REST-based
#
gRegorLove OK OK what is REST?
#
Loqi Representational State Transfer (REST) is a software design architecture used to communicate state between two systems that has no current IndieWeb adoption, likely due to its fundamental incompatibility with static sites https://indiewebcamp.com/REST
#
gRegorLove :D
#
gregorlove.com edited /REST-based (+27) "See Also: REST" (view diff)
#
gregorlove.com edited /REST-ish (+27) "See Also: REST" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /REST-based (+4) "linky" (view diff)
#
tantek ok gRegorLove here you go, what is RESTful?
#
Loqi Representational State Transfer (REST) is a software design architecture used to communicate state between two systems that has no current IndieWeb adoption, likely due to its fundamental incompatibility with static sites https://indiewebcamp.com/RESTful
#
tantek that's an appropriate use of redirect
#
tantek.com edited /REST-based (+15) "sa REST-ish" (view diff)
#
tantek.com edited /REST-ish (+21) "linky, sa REST-based" (view diff)
#
kylewm give it a REST will ya
#
gRegorLove http://www.hiyoooo.com/
mlncn joined the channel
#
kylewm.com edited /REST-ish (-117) "redirect to REST-based" (view diff)
#
kylewm.com edited /REST-ish (+0) "Redirected page to [[REST-based]]" (view diff)
bengo joined the channel
#
csarven Is archiving (long term preservation) of interest to indiewebcamp?
#
KevinMarks very much so
#
tantek what is indiearchive?
#
Loqi IndieArchive is a project to collaboratively grow an archival copy of pages replied to (possibly also mentioned) in indie web posts https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieArchive
#
tantek what is archive?
#
Loqi archive in the context of the indieweb refers to date-grouped (often monthly) sets of posts (AKA personal historical archives, a common form of navigation), but can sometimes mean archival copy, a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time https://indiewebcamp.com/archive
#
tantek what is archival copy?
#
Loqi An archival copy is a copy of a web page made (often by someone other than the author) at a particular point in time, that can be used as a reference if the original disappears or is temporarily unavailable https://indiewebcamp.com/archival_copy
#
csarven Very cool re: webrecorder
#
tantek what is longevity?
#
Loqi Longevity is the goal of keeping your data as future-friendly and future-proof as possible; it is one of the indieweb principles https://indiewebcamp.com/longevity
#
tantek some reading for you csarven :)
#
csarven Good stuff.. happy to see the interest in archival.
#
csarven http://www.w3.org/People/Bos/DesignGuide/longevity.html
#
tantek csarven: nice one. feel free to add that to the See Also section in /longevity !
KevinMarks_ joined the channel
#
csarven tantek The essay is great / summary. Surely you've come across it? I think that was one of the earlier docs that I've come across which had a nice summary of topics/design principles.
#
csarven.ca edited /longevity (+132) "Added URL to Bert Bos's Longevity article" (view diff)
j12t joined the channel
#
@MollyRoseL .@scanadu @sam_debrouwer discussing how #scanadu will empower consumers. #NewCoSv #OwnYourData https://twitter.com/MollyRoseL/status/608779368928673793/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/608779368928673793)
bengo joined the channel
#
@bellatimmy RT @MollyRoseL: .@scanadu @sam_debrouwer discussing how #scanadu will empower consumers. #NewCoSv #OwnYourData https://twitter.com/MollyRoseL/status/608779368928673793/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/608780566570254336)
bengo joined the channel