#indiewebcamp 2015-05-27

2015-05-27 UTC
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Loqi
[mention] Chris Aldrich commented 'I've been doing something similar myself, particularly given the number of social media outlets to which one can publish. To solve part of ...' on a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (http://stream.boffosocko.com/2015/ive-been-doing-something-similar-myself-particularly-given-the-number)
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@misuba
Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use your shit.
(twitter.com/_/status/603371611266285570)
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@icicle
RT @misuba: Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use yo…
(twitter.com/_/status/603371809698787328)
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aaronpk
lol that's not really how it works
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aaronpk
misuba: not sure what exactly you're referencing there...
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misuba
I admit I’m looking, again, for something to install.
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misuba
Not to spend my off hours hacking on for weeks. Can’t do that anymore.
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KartikPrabhu
I don't think any indieweb project *needs* you to install TLS certs
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aaronpk
well withknown is the best option for that at the moment
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aaronpk
they've got a really good install/onboarding process
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aaronpk
which is not always an itch for others
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misuba
known is the closest I’ve found, but it’s not distributed
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aaronpk
lol what?
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aaronpk
what definition of distributed are you referring to?
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misuba
Can I subscribe, on my known installation, to someone on another?
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aaronpk
known doesn't have a reader yet, afaik, but that is on the docket. in the mean time, you can sign in to reader.kylewm.com or monocle.p3k.io with your website to use a reader
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KartikPrabhu
misuba: you mean known doesn't have a built-in reader yet
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aaronpk
turns out having a "built-in reader" is also not something everyone wants, and the next best thing is being able to use a reader that posts replies, favorites, etc to your own site
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misuba
KartikPrabhu: the Linked Data stuff requires TLS certs except in one implementation
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aaronpk
linked data != indieweb
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aaronpk
only a few people here are touching linked data
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misuba
Linked data is not a part of the set of projects you would call “indie web”?
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aaronpk
if someone is using it to build their personal website then sure
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aaronpk
but none of the indieweb interop stuff uses linked data
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misuba
I’m looking for stuff that enables what I’m interested in doing. They seem to have a lot of it running, more than I see anywhere else
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KartikPrabhu
misuba: projects are not "protocols" or "formats"
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KartikPrabhu
what is project?
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Loqi
These are projects you can use to get your site on the IndieWeb and improve your IndieWeb support https://indiewebcamp.com/project
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misuba
Thanks, I’ve seen that page. I am, indeed, looking for things I can install.
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aaronpk
misuba: if you can find a project that is built on linked data, install it on your website, and use it to replace your use of twitter ,etc, then you will have by far demonstrated more indieweb effort than i have seen from most others in the linkeddata community
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misuba
That’d be cool, but I’m also building for multiuser. I’m not making my friends generate TLS certs. That’s a nonstarter. Hence my frustrated tweet.
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aaronpk
but please don't confuse criticism of linked data projects and community with the indieweb community
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misuba
I haven’t even seen any such criticism.
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@misuba
Those few indieweb projects that don't fail on protecting users, fail on usability. No one's gonna install a TLS cert to use your shit.
(twitter.com/_/status/603371611266285570)
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aaronpk
that was poorly worded. i was referring to yours. :)
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misuba
I am frustrated with them, but it is certainly clear to me that they are a different bunch of folks.
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KartikPrabhu
actually all the indieweb things that enable cross-site communication including IndieAuth, micropub, bridgy work without any TLS
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misuba
Look, I know I’m not coming from the calmest place here, but… I really do not care about tribes. I am looking for something that works.
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misuba
They work without TLS! Good! *sigh*
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aaronpk
it's all good. right now, the best option you'll find here by far is withknown. there are several others that are pretty good as well, wordpress for example
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misuba
I’ve spent my free time for the last day trying to figure out how to extend their Twitter plugin to hack around Bridgy
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misuba
Bridgy fails silently for me, all the time, every time
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: ^ maybe you can help misuba here
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kylewm
Known's Twitter plugin doesn't use Bridgy, afaik
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misuba
No, it doesn’t. There is a separate Bridgy plugin that will… allegedly… do something I’ve never seen.
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kylewm
I'd be happy to help debug if you can describe the issue, or file bugs on Bridgy or Known where applicable
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kylewm
misuba: what version of Known are you using? 0.7.8+?
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misuba
Right now the Bridgy plugin, although installed, doesn’t appear in the config menu. I will fish around for error messages when I can, they aren’t on the page
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misuba
0.7.8.5.1
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kylewm
it's in the Settings page under "Interactions" rather than Bridgy
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kylewm
also you can just use bridgy directly https://www.brid.gy/twitter/misuba
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misuba
I have done that many times, yes
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misuba
Maybe I just really, really don’t know how to use it, but I have enabled twitter+bridgy with the prev version of the plugin many times, used it manually many times… nothing
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misuba
Like, I’ve just posted from my known install to twitter asking people to reply. What can I expect?
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kylewm
you twitter account doesn't link your known page, so bridgy doesn't have any way to find your url
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misuba
…okay. So, it sounds as if bridgy can’t do anything for me unless my known site is my main site and thus linked on my profile?
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KartikPrabhu
that is the only way bridgy can know what your site is
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kylewm
lemme try something
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misuba
there’s no way to have my main site note where bridgy should look, in a header or link tag?
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kylewm
misuba: you can add the theha.us link as text in your profile instead of as your "main site"... e.g. I just added indiewebcamp.com to https://twitter.com/kylewmahan
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kylewm
I should say "http://theha.us" rather
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misuba
that’s what i thought, yeah. great news
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kylewm
and yeah, alternatively you could add a <link rel="feed" href="http://theha.us"> in the head of your primary site, but that would be a little weird
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misuba
yeah it isn’t the feed exactly
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: wait what! So I can add any site to my twitter profile and make my replies go to that site?
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kylewm
yeah, i mean, assuming that site links to your posts with u-syndication
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: ha, it's not any different than before. you could have said your personal site was http://aol.com
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misuba
so what can I expect to see in Known?
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misuba
I’ve got a reply and bridgy’s found it (by my manually having it check) but known isn’t visibly aware
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kylewm
misuba: you have to re-authorize with bridgy for it to pick up the changed profile
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kylewm
just click on Twitter here https://www.brid.gy/
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misuba
reauthorized, still nothin
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misuba
and now I have to go. Time will tell I guess.
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misuba
thanks all for the help
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kylewm
I don't even understand what I wrote there, but I like that I used ∴
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aaronpk
this is successful on my dev copy of indieauth.com :) https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth.com/issues/53
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aaronpk
going to test it out more, but i'm optimistic!
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kylewm
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 821 karma
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: regarding Bridgy not re-parsing new domains, it would be good if the Bridgy user page just had a button that said "look for new domains" or something
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kylewm
that's a good idea. also we just need to suck it up and do https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/304
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KartikPrabhu
right. But starting with an explicituser prompt might be easier than automating the whole thing
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KartikPrabhu
misuba: It turns out that bridgy does not support re-parsing older posts after you add a new domain to your Twitter. But new posts should be found and replies will be backfed. Correct me if wrong kylewm ...
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kylewm
yeah I mentioned that to him on twitter. who knows, it might work. we're not sure exactly what the failure mode is for bridgy
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Vendan
aaronpk, any idea when that'll be live?
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Loqi
Vendan: tantek left you a message on 5/25 at 11:39pm: Flickr 4.0.1/iOS experiment complete. As you both suspected, there is no actual Instagram integration, but rather only *after* you've uploaded a photo to Flickr, then you can "share" it to IG, which just passes it to the Instagram app's upload UI. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432622346836
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misuba
here’s a wrinkle: nowhere on the page I’ve linked bridgy to does the text ‘u-syndication’ appear. I use Known’s default templates.
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Loqi
slack/snarfed: misuba: u-syndication is for individual posts, not the front page
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp
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misuba
hello
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tantek
hello misuba - I read the logs - was everything cleared up about indieweb vs. linked data vs. ssl/tls etc?
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tantek
these things are all overlapping but none of them requires any of the others
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misuba
hahahaha nothing was ever unclear to me about linked data!
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misuba
apparently there’s been a tribal war in the recent past
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tantek
misuba - then you're in better shape than most!
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misuba
yeah, i wasn’t bringing it up with any idea that it was “affiliated” or something
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tantek
misuba - can you provide links to evidence of this tribal war?
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tantek
I haven't heard of it - especially in the context of indieweb
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misuba
it does look pretty good from here though! but… usability.
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tantek
or if it has nothing to do with indieweb, then don't worry about it
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tantek
usability is THE #1 challenge
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misuba
the only evidence i know of has been in this channel.
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tantek
this channel has archives
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tantek
you can linke to days or specific lines
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misuba
i mean just in the time i’ve been logged in today.
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tantek
huh - still don't know of any such tribal war
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tantek
maybe we have different understanding of what you mean
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misuba
look, i dunno, i just can’t really explain ppl’s reactions here when i brought them up any other way
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tantek
can you link to an example?
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misuba
people earlier seemed really concerned that, hey, those guys are not us, and i was just so far from even caring about that. i was already clear on it
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tantek
again, don't know what you're talking about - you'll have to provide a link
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tantek
that doesn't seem to be a concern but rather a dispelling of an apparent assumption from the context
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tantek
there are some folks that use linked data or at least Semantic Web like concepts in ther indieweb sites, but the vast majority don't. still, it's up to each individual to choose their own plumbing.
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misuba
to me, if it is trying to be distributed and do the things a social network does, it’s indieweb
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tantek
those aren't actually the key values/principles of indieweb
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misuba
the linked data projects seem pretty obviously aimed at that to me. not all of them explicitly, i suppose
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tantek
misuba - it's not clear to me what linked data projects are particularly *aimed* at - but being *aimed* at doesn't actually matter
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tantek
do you know anyone running their personal (i.e. *indie*) website using linked data? URL?
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tantek
what's your personal website misuba?
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misuba
my point is that that debate, what’s indieweb and what’s not, was not at all what’s important to me
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misuba
i came here frustrated not being able to do something, and instead i got a faceful of corrections on what’s in what category. a pretty big context switch
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tantek
misuba what are you trying to do with your personal website?
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tantek
(yeah the corrections are likely an overreaction to lots of folks who have confused indiweb with other things)
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misuba
ah - i can also see that that’s another convo that’s gonna go poorly. i’m breaking principle #3.
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misuba
also i feel no particular need to replace my WP site
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tantek
(that's good feedback that it's not useful nor friendly to provide it as initial reaction to someone new)
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tantek
there are plenty of WordPress fans here!
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tantek
WordPress is a very well supported CMS for indieweb functionality, features, formats, protocols
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misuba
yeah, but today in particular has been frustrating due to my desire to keep my Known site on the side, as a possibly-multiuser utility
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tantek
got it
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tantek
I'm not an expert on Known, but there are definitely folks around here who are
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misuba
i kinda wish Known weren’t trying to be totalizing that way. ephemeral content and content for the ages demand different software IMO
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tantek
oh hey you're already in #knownchat also
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misuba
yah
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tantek
there's a greater chance of getting specific answers about Known features there I would assume - e.g. about multiuser utility
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tantek
sorry to not be of more help!
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misuba
no problem, glad there is some talk. i didn’t post to known’s channel because i’m always reluctant to be the one who breaks the stony silence :)
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tantek
I have no such reluctance :)
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tantek
if you do find yourself curious about WordPress and IndieWeb, this is a good starting point: https://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started_on_WordPress
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GWG
I'll be happy to help as well
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benwerd
wakes up
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Loqi
benwerd: tantek left you a message 1 day ago: I noticed the Flickr 4.0.1 for iOS (native app) claims to now have "Share to Instagram" - that hints that it might be possible to POSSE to Flickr to POSSE to IG. Thought you might be interested. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432613474202
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benwerd
tantek: and thanks for the heads up!
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tantek
sigh, false alarm on that one (about Flickr to IG)
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benwerd
booooo.
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benwerd
misuba: Sorry about the silence in #knownchat. I get notifications if there's conversation there though.
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benwerd
misuba: Really interested in your feedback, too. Curious what you mean by "totalizing"? I suspect I agree on this.
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tantek.com
edited /Known (+71) "/* Development */ add withiknown.com/guides"
(view diff)
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misuba
hello!
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benwerd
Howdy!
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misuba
“totalizing” may be the wrong word - to me, I have WP for managing my “archive,” content that has value to contribute going forward
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misuba
I am in the market for something to do the ephemeral communication. not (necessarily!) to throw it out the window in six minutes snapchat-style, but to be designed for conversation and daylogging.
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benwerd
That's mostly what I use my Known site for - the day-to-day conversation. I find the Firefox integration really useful for this, eg to reply to Twitter.
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misuba
obviously i can just not use the blogging stuff in known. (better, though, would be if it did Gplus-like tricks when I posted a link to WP.)
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tantek
indiesnappishchat
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tantek
goes back to figuring out webmention sending
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benwerd
misuba: We're really conscious that it's not a WP replacement. I think you'll see it change over time to reflect this - including potentially losing the blog content type entirely.
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benwerd
WP has its foibles but it's a very solid CMS for a great many people.
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misuba
i’d love it if - and I’m not sure why I’ve been thinking about this - we could lose content types entirely, at least from the UI. detection over selection.
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tantek
yeah!
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misuba
G+ is great at that stuff, for all its flaws.
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benwerd
misuba: _completely_ agree.
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benwerd
content types were a misstep.
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endi
benwerd: why not leave "Posts" a plugin that can be disabled? It doesn't have to lose anything for everyone, just for those that don't want to enable it.
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benwerd
endi: It would be - just not enabled by default. Events are similar right now
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benwerd
I blog on Known, so I'd want to keep using it
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benwerd
Having a single content type that can have other stuff added to it would be significantly better
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misuba
posts make sense as a switch on status updates tho. typed more than 255 chars? here you go, here’s an opportunity to add a title and formatting.
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benwerd
(Also with drafts and previews)
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endi
yeah I don't have the content to go make a blog, but from time to time I may have something I want to write down and it's perfect to have the Posts as an option
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endi
esp. in the [HowTo] type posts I can post to friends etc that may benefit from them.
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tantek
imagines an indieclippy - "It looks like you're writing a blog post, would you like to add a title?"
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misuba
“it looks like i’m on your screen, would you like me to sod off?”
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tantek
that sounds like KevinMarks-speak. I wonder what he's faffing about right now. ;)
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tantek
so much faffing
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endi
I was just thinking would clippy just be a floating KevinMarks head hovering to the right?
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tantek
oh my goodness that would be amazing
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misuba
i wouldn’t use posts until there was an option for drafts.
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endi
heh I write everything in BBEdit
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endi
I've gotten so used to it I don't use any online UI to compose, just paste and make sure it's what I want before hitting publish
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misuba
you could implement drafts as just posting an item to a group that only has yourself in it. #hint
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endi
there are groups now?
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misuba
nope
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misuba
sorry. i shouldn’t be snarky like that here
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endi
i thought multi-user mode perhaps has groups you can post to for internal publishing
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endi
I've always run Known single user
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KevinMarks__
I get a floating kevinmarks head in medium
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misuba
that would be so, so awesome even if it were just for internal users
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endi
KevinMarks__: :) #IndieWebClippy
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KevinMarks__
Screenshot here
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misuba
endi: the only reason I was talking about the Linked Data people earlier is they’re looking at Web Access Control, which looks like a good approach
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endi
I'm new to indieweb in general and my experiences have been Known and Bridgy for the most part
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endi
I follow some of the concepts, code and test pages KevinMarks__ et. al. post but it's above my head so I try to learn what I can from it
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benwerd
misuba / endi: right now you can run it a site as a closed group for internal users, but there aren't multiple groups within a site
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benwerd
but we do have the metadata for access groups under the hood.
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misuba
yesssssss
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endi
KevinMarks__: Now it needs a chat bubble saying "Would you like to learn about Fragmentions?" :p
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endi
which is next on my list of stuff to learn about
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KevinMarks
known has it's own friendly popup robot
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misuba
My goal is to get enough Known science into my head that I can be of some help in turning under-the-hood stuff into… over-the-hood? That’s not right
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misuba
over the river and through the hood
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endi
my goal is just to learn enough so I can be a competent tester and perhaps help somehow
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KevinMarks
I did a new fragmention experiment the other day:
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KevinMarks
hm, I think I need a new fragmention plugin
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endi
Yeah I saw that. I'm fascinated by that ability to pull/quote bits from other sites/posts and still have it display so aesthetically w/ links and attribution etc
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tantek.com
edited /Webmention (+92) "/* Discovery in PHP */ only fall back to loading the HTML body if content-type is HTML or XHTML"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks
updated the chrome extension to make new style fragmentions: https://github.com/microformats/fragmentions
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KevinMarks
I shoudl edit the etxt too
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endi
So that system parses the post and finds the text? or do I as composer of the post need to make it parse-able by the fragmentions system?
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KevinMarks
sorry, which bit?
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KevinMarks
the code in my auto_link parsers the fragment and makes a <blockquote>
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endi
I'm reading the Fragmentions readme; I'm just wondering if I am writing a post if I have to tag elements like with a URL anchor or if you're parsing the body and identifying the text?
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KevinMarks
no, that's the point - fragmentions.js parses the text of the page
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KevinMarks
if that's not clear I should definitely rewrite it
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endi
alright, I figured but I was just making sure I'm understanding it correctly
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endi
well, I was probably reading the example code from the wrong perspective
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KevinMarks
the original post explains the idea more: http://www.kevinmarks.com/fragmentions.html
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endi
<a href="##pursuit">TL;DR</a>
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endi
</p>
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KevinMarks
yeah, I should edit that explanation
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endi
that bit, made it seem like I need to insert ##pursuit when I'm composing the post
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KevinMarks
Jonathan was using minimal examples with single words
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endi
to make it parse-able for fragmentions
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KevinMarks
that's because it is in internal link on the page
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endi
gotcha. I believe I was looking at it from the wrong perspective. That of the original poster not the poster mentioning the original post. if that makes sense.
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endi
when in the correct mindset it makes sense
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endi
so my confusion was my own doing
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KevinMarks
the example's aren't great
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KevinMarks
also, I now prefer single # and %20 for better URL validity
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endi
that makes sense as well
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KevinMarks
as in I just made shit up originally, and created 2 violations of the URL spec
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KevinMarks
## is actually invalid
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KevinMarks
that second example is very confusing
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KevinMarks
as you should really % escape the unicode stars too
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KevinMarks
I think I'll replace that with a link that actually works
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endi
that should clear things up
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KevinMarks
hm, the indiewebcamp wiki implementation doesn't support single # :(
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endi
what other URL *valid* options are available
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KevinMarks
blasted markdown
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endi
wow is it just me or the changes at twit seem drastic
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endi
I was just in #twitlive and it's a mess, been raging for the past 12 hours it seems
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KevinMarks
I haven't been paying attention, what happened?
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KevinMarks
(I'm on TWiG tomorrow, but haven't followed their changes)
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KevinMarks
is this clearer?
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endi
Well, starting Monday June 1st the chatroom/chatserver is being shut down. also shows will not be live streamed, the post produced version will air 3-5 hrs after the recording
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KevinMarks
where was that announced?
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endi
">Find this specific text<" -> ">Finds this specific text<" ?
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endi
it was pre-MBW today with more pre-SN
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endi
I don't believe an official blog post has been issued but there are tons of youtube clips floating around
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endi
but back to the readme, yes it is clearer
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KevinMarks
so instead there will be bootleg periscope streams from people in the audience seats?
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endi
yeah quite a strange move. in a world moving to live streaming he's moving the model backwards after 10 years of live streaming?
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KevinMarks
sounds like something to talk about with Jeff ;)
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endi
I never contributed to chat as much as I should have because noise:signal was high but the live stream I often had it on in the background
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endi
the pre-show post-show chatting you all do is almost as interesting as the shows.
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endi
I would love to hear Jeff's opinions though in front of Leo I don't think they'll be complete or entirely candid
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KevinMarks
oops, closed the wrong window
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endi
"the pre-show post-show chatting you all do is almost as interesting as the shows." | "I would love to hear Jeff's opinions though in front of Leo I don't think they'll be complete or entirely candid"
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endi
I will make an effort to watch live since it will be my last opportunity to do so :(
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endi
her's a link to a video posted in #twitlive: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfaUyDMJrlw
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KevinMarks
hm, lots of the tests in https://github.com/microformats/tests have empty results
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endi
KevinMarks: getting the chrome extension loaded up in chrome, excited to test it out
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endi
Error: Bad Request
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endi
Your client has issued a malformed or illegal request.
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endi
KevinMarks: Ran into that error with Fragmention URL: "https://weakdh.org/#Millions%20of%20HTTPS,%20SSH,%20and%20VPN%20servers%20all%20use%20the%20same%20prime%20numbers%20for%20Diffie-Hellman%20key%20exchange.%20Practitioners%20believed%20this%20was%20safe%20as%20long%20as%20new%20key%20exchange%20messages%20were%20generated%20for%20every%20connection.%20However,%20the%20first%20step%20in%20the%20number%20field%20sieve%E
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endi
2%80%94the%20most%20efficient%20algorithm%20for%20breaking%20a%20Diffie-Hellman%20connection%E2%80%94is%20dependent%20only%20on%20this%20prime.%20After%20this%20first%20step,%20an%20attacker%20can%20quickly%20break%20individual%20connections."
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KevinMarks
may have been a bit long
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endi
yeah, other two worked perfectly. I'll try w/ shorter quote.
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endi
alright, lets see how that turns out.
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endi
LOL nvm Known decided to not publish that post.
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@TheWritingGeek
Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/603480820821708800)
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@Inkwater_Masha
Learn it. Repeat it. Live it. http://ow.ly/i/aWK1K #bookdesignhumor #selfpub #indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/603480821102678016)
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endi
Alright, another try.
#
endi
KevinMarks: Looks good :) There was an error in the paragraph involving the -- characters, they were inserted as a special a; I edited out the a and inserted '--' before posting.
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endi
KevinMarks: Is the goal for the chrome extension to eventually display the HTML embed code? atm I got the fragmention URL and copied it to your unmung to create the HTML. It would perhaps make sense for a new tab to open w/ the Fragmention URL in one box and the HTML embed code in a box below it? So it's actionable in fewer steps?
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KevinMarks
oh, interesting
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endi
the error?
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KevinMarks
making the chrome extension do that
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endi
oh, yeah that would rock
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KevinMarks
currently ti just changes the addressbar to the selected fragmention
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endi
highlight, right click -> create fragmention and boom you've got the embed code infront of you
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endi
yeah, took me a while to realize it had done something.
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KevinMarks
making it bale to post the bookmark by micropub would be interesting
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KevinMarks
maybe that's too far
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endi
interesting but isn't that assuming one per post? meaning you'd initiate the post by finding the fragmentation and then editing around it before publishing? or do you mean in a non-Post context
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endi
like a simple bookmark context
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endi
personally having a fragmention URL and HTML embed code presented would be the most useful but I'm probably not thinking of all the possible applications
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GWG
Good morning
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cweiske
pfefferle, how did you edit https://github.com/pubsubhubbub/PubSubHubbub/wiki/Hubs ? I don't see an edit button
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kylewm
is it possible in nginx to set the ssl_ciphers et al for all virtual servers in one place, rather than updating them for each configuration?
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aaronpk
kylewm: yes, you can put it in the http block
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kylewm
heh... i have been doing that wrong
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kylewm
ty aaronpk
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kylewm
related: I generated unique dhparams.pem for my server per https://weakdh.org/sysadmin.html, it was much easier than expected
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: are you on a VPS?
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tantek
aaronpk, kylewm is that an FAQ worthy of adding to /HTTPS ?
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tantek
re: how to set the ssl_ciphers et al for all virtual servers in one place in nginx
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tantek
!tell KartikPrabhu interesting article that webofalexandria2 thing, except mostly handwringing about the ephemerality/persistence ambiguity. ambiguity = flexibility = opportunity. actual answer: we're all going to end up auto-persistent-caching everything we personally read (sans ads), sync'd across our devices. like personal history++.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Vendan
one thing on that, tantek: stuff like ipfs. All "published" content, like pictures and videos and even web pages and such, is stored in a content addressable system
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Vendan
and if you want to "keep" something, you can pin it. Once you pin it, it stays on your server until you unpin it, and people can access it out of your datastore as well
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tantek
Vendan "content addressable system" - lol
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tantek
that's one of the "boil the ocean" phrase detections
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Vendan
I take it you don't like the idea of a content addressable system? or what?
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tantek
Vendan - no, the idea is one of those that's been talked about for a while but never really prototyped in any usable way anywhere except in little closed lab experiments.
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tantek
so I have trouble taking it seriously. usually such systems are worse versions of URLs
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KevinMarks__
Not quite true - we have a huge example of content addressable archiving in bit torrent of video via pirate bay et al
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KevinMarks__
And akamai is a content addressable archive underneath
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tantek
alright KevinMarks, since you're apparently knowledgable about such examples ...
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tantek
what is content addressable?
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tantek
^^^ citations welcome :)
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KevinMarks__
Also, having a URL for every version you edit is useful http://epeus.blogspot.com/2012/05/keep-all-versions.html
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tantek
but not as useful as the *more common* use-case of having a URL for the "live" thing
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tantek
sacrificing the live URL for "URL for every version you edit" is the dumbest kind of optimizing for the edge case rather than the common-case a common anti-pattern among engineers.
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KartikPrabhu
we all know that the real answer is DOI ;)
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 29 minutes ago: interesting article that webofalexandria2 thing, except mostly handwringing about the ephemerality/persistence ambiguity. ambiguity = flexibility = opportunity. actual answer: we're all going to end up auto-persistent-caching everything we personally read (sans ads), sync'd across our devices. like personal history++. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432743927049
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: DOIs are even funnier. It's like DNS but more fragile.
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tantek
what is a DOI
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Loqi
DOI is an abbreviation for Digital Object Identifier, "a character string used to uniquely identify an object such as an electronic document[1]", kind of like a URL with more bureaucracy https://indiewebcamp.com/DOI
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tantek
oh good :)
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KartikPrabhu
i was worried I'd have to write one <phew>
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KartikPrabhu
also that article raises a good point though. I think lay users get confused about whether the Internet rememebers or forgets
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KevinMarks__
So DOI is DOA? Put it in an URN?
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KevinMarks__
That's Norton's law.
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tantek
what is Norton's law?
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KevinMarks__
Norton's law is "In the long run everything is either public or deleted."
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tantek
Loqi no likey tickmark
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Loqi
grins profusely
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tantek
gives Loqi a tickmark
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Loqi
throws the tickmark
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tantek
I knew it
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk
question for everyone who has implemented editing via micropub...
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aaronpk
how hard/awkward was it to handle creating and consuming the form-encoded post for edits?
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aaronpk
and would something like this JSON be easier? https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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rhiaro
my implementation of editing doesn't count right?
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Loqi
rhiaro: tantek left you a message on 5/25 at 3:25pm: the term "consume" makes sense, except, especially in the online context, it tends to include non-physical things too - which seems quite outside the bounds/meaning of food&drink. Would "ingest" work for you if you're looking for a more generic term than "food"? (but still implying physical consumption rather than virtual consumption like reading / listening ? ) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-25/line/1432592721014
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aaronpk
rhiaro: lol
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rhiaro
also aaronpk how can I force quill to try harder at getting my location?
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tantek
aaronpk: if you're going to use JSON - why not re-use the mf2 parsed output?
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aaronpk
tantek: the problem isn't the creating, it's modifying individual properties. there isn't an mf2 output for that
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rhiaro
It thinks I'm in Zadar and I'm totally in Korenica and I can't post under these false pretences
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aaronpk
creating could use the mf2 parsed output easily
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aaronpk
it's just that every value would be an array which adds complexity to the consuming code
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tantek
which they likely already deal with because they parse mf2
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tantek
you run into that as soon as you update multiple properties
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tantek
and then you have worse complexity (string or array) instead of just always array
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tantek
that's how we ended up with the mf2 JSON output
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tantek
it's simpler for the feature set
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aaronpk
okay it's not that much different, one sec
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tantek
essentially you're walking the same design discovery path
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tantek
which is fine (per teach a man to fish type reasoning)
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tantek
just trying to save you time ;)
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aaronpk
all i did was add array brackets around the content value :) https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/532b1868541b3df9a412
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aaronpk
and renamed "object" to "properties"
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tantek
for the update, why not "update" instead of "object"
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tantek
just like you have "add" and "remove" ?
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aaronpk
does "update" sufficiently imply "replace"?
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tantek
er why not "update" instead of "properties"
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tantek
aaronpk: I just reused the term from CRUD
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aaronpk
in CRUD, "update" also refers to partial changes
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tantek
right, so only the properties listed get updated
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aaronpk
replaced
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aaronpk
vs the "add" which adds a tag for example, leaving existing tags in place
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aaronpk
i'm not opposed to "update", just want to make sure it's clear
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tantek
I figure re-use the term from CRUD makes it more clear than a new term
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rhiaro
'action' seems weird to me. Thoughts on { "delete": "http://example.com/post/1" } ?
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aaronpk
well, properties wasn't a new term exactly
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aaronpk
example is updated
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tantek
and why remove instead of delete?
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tantek
again, per CRUD terms
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aaronpk
oh interesting, i actually think it makes sense to have both, one sec
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tantek
wat? diff btw rm & del
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aaronpk
and rhiaro good point, and that would completely remove the need for "action"
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aaronpk
tantek: the difference is removing an entire set of values vs one value from the list
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tantek
that's too subtle for a term difference IMO
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aaronpk
e.g. given "category":["indieweb","indiewebcamp"], need to be able to remove the property "category", but also need to be able to remove just "indieweb" from the list
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tantek
those are both just deletes of different granularity right?
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tantek
no need for a new term?
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rhiaro
{ "url": "http://example.com/post/1", "delete": "category" } vs { "url": "http://example.com/post/1", "delete": { "category": ["indieweb"] } } ?
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tantek
like that
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aaronpk
using "remove" for the second example has the advantave of the value of "delete" is always a string poiting to a property, where "remove" would always be an object
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tantek
again, too subtle of a difference to remember which is which
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rhiaro
I believe the policy here is to go with the simplest one and see if it breaks anything?
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aaronpk
another potential confusion with "delete" is that "delete" may be referring to a property if there is also a url in the request, but if there is no URL, then delete is actually meaning delete the post at the URL given as the value of "delete"
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aaronpk
will update example...
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tantek
fewer terms = better. fewer new terms = better.
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rhiaro
aaronpk: that doesn't seem confusing to me, unless I misunderstood, in which case, something is confusing
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rhiaro
"delete": "something" just says delete whatever the value of delete is
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rhiaro
in all cases
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aaronpk
it's just a little trickier because it may be deleting a post or just one property
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tantek
aaronpk - are these meant to be atomic edits? or could you combine e.g. deleting a value of one property (like a category) with deleting another whole property (e.g. summary)
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rhiaro
with a url for context of where that value belongs if needed
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aaronpk
you could definitely have multiple properties in any of these delete or add
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tantek
been refreshing :)
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tantek
aaronpk: the create should include the full h-* item
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aaronpk
including type?
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tantek
yes, especially so
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aaronpk
makes sense
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tantek
I expect micropub clients to create objects other than h-entry, e.g. h-event
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aaronpk
and h-card
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tantek
right
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aaronpk
this is looking pretty good it hink
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rhiaro
that looks good
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aaronpk
the only slightly odd thing is that the value of the "delete" property may be an object or an array
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rhiaro
A+ would implement
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tantek
aaronpk: or a string (URL)
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aaronpk
oh right :P
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tantek
"Creating a post" should cite the mf2 canonical JSON output
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aaronpk
not sure what you mean. PR?
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tantek
just to say that it's not a coincidence that type and properties map to the output of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing
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aaronpk
k how's that?
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tantek
looks great!
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aaronpk
this seems reasonable
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tantek
certainly a really good first draft to try implementing
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tantek
now to figure out how to post an /edit post that does these things
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tantek
or posts
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tantek
e.g. the canonical example being "Personname updated their profile photo to … "
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aaronpk
oh boy.. gotta add file uploads to this
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aaronpk
the post "personname updated their profile photo..." isn't really an "edit" post, it's a *result* of the edit post
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tantek
it is the edit post. the prose is just presentation.
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aaronpk
maybe the distinction doesn't matter
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tantek
the result is that their profile has a new image
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aaronpk
the point is i can make the edit without making the post
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tantek
the point is not "can" but rather the fact that these posts *do* show up with permalinks
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tantek
thus it's better to model that
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tantek
they have permalinks, get comments, likes etc.
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aaronpk
that is still true when the post is a result of editing
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aaronpk
i'm not arguing against the idea of edits having their own permalinks btw
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aaronpk
i'm just not sold on actually using the URL that describes the edit to make the edit
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tantek
going to have to think about how to best markup "Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg"
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tantek
before even getting to discussions about URL that describes the edit vs. URL of the edit
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tantek
I think it's worth figuring out the publishing markup
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aaronpk
what do you mean "URL that describes the edit vs. URL of the edit"? those sound the same
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tantek
well it happens at a certain time so
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tantek
aaronpk: I was trying to repeat back to you what you said
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tantek
perhaps s/that describes/of
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aaronpk
i would be curious to see what a post that describes "Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg" would be marked up like
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tantek
"Aaron Parecki updated his profile photo to http://example.com/aaronpk2.jpg today at 13:37"
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tantek
seems like an h-entry, has a clear author, and dt-published
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tantek
so now to figure out a good way to convey update semantics to a property "photo" with a URL value.
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tantek
this may require some time AFK
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aaronpk
wonder if i should hold off on continuing the micropub json examples until we have a good idea of this kind of post...
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tantek
it is probable
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aaronpk
how about a child h-entry object that has only the properties that changed?
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tantek
a child object may be needed, but would preferably avoid that
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tantek
certainly no evidence that it would need to be an h-entry - as there is no separate author / date
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tantek
nice example KevinMarks
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aaronpk
i'm thinking about updating other things like h-card or h-event too
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tantek
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 114 karma
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tantek
aaronpk: the point is that the update post itself makes sense as an h-entry
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tantek
based on the above author/date reasoning
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tantek
but that doesn't imply anything about what if anything should be nested inside
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tantek
there's at least three things the update has to point to
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KevinMarks
i think thinkup shows photo changes too, but can't find one
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tantek
the URL of the thing being updated (e.g maybe URL of your h-card?)
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tantek
2. the property being updated
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tantek
3. the new vlue
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tantek
s/vlue/value
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: 3. the new value
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tantek
what is an edit?
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Loqi
An edit (AKA diff, change) is a special type of reply that indicates a set of suggested changes to the post it is replying to. A collection of (presumably related) suggested edits in open source is often called a patch or pull request https://indiewebcamp.com/edit
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KevinMarks
lol - thinkup interpreting long back and forth argument as BFF https://kevinmarks.thinkup.com/?u=kevinmarks&n=twitter&d=2015-05-17&s=bestie
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's the classic BFF/frenemy confusion
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aaronpk
(unrelated, that's a good example of the HTML whitespace being added to the parsed JSON and unintentially adding meaning to the parsed result)
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tantek
aaronpk: the nested h-entry makes no sense, as noted above - no separate date/time
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tantek
no need for another h-entry, so don't use one
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aaronpk
oops that was supposed to be h-card
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aaronpk
because it's an update to the h-card
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tantek
s/class="u-author"/class="u-author h-card"
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tantek
a-ha - then perhaps that needs a property to make the "update" semantic clear
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tantek
e-update?
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tantek
as in "e-update h-card"
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KevinMarks
hah at my 'friends' being UK Cabinet and Shadow Cabinet ministers https://kevinmarks.thinkup.com/?u=kevinmarks&n=twitter&d=2015-05-11&s=bio_tracker
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tantek
KevinMarks: can you capture those edit example in /edit#Silo_Examples ? and upload screenshots?
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tantek
aaronpk: now there's the challenge of how do you update actual URLs in your h-card?
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aaronpk
heh yeah, and the implied p-name is killing me too
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tantek
ah! the URL of the thing being updated is already spec'd!
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tantek
one moment
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tantek
kylewm did this
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tantek
u-edit-of
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tantek
then the nested microformat on e-update MUST only specify the properties that are actually updated
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aaronpk
that makes sense
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tantek
KevinMarks: please add the ThinkUp examples you provided to https://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Silo_Examples
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tantek
aaronpk: then you can have e-update or e-delete properties to indicate which properties/values of which objects are being edited
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aaronpk
the implied rules are messing this up tho
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aaronpk
ah okay
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tantek
we'll get to those next
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aaronpk
using *-update and *-delete means it doesn't need to be a nested h-card anymore tho
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aaronpk
oh wait maybe not
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tantek
yeah it still does - to wrap the properties being updated/deleted
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tantek
along with their values
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aaronpk
okay refresh, that's where i am right now
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tantek
s/p-update/e-update to make it clear the markup inside is relevant
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tantek
rather, essential, to the edit
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aaronpk
it is?
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tantek
yes - u-photo for example :P
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aaronpk
it doesn't change the parsed result
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tantek
good point
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KevinMarks
forgets the easy way to upload images again
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tantek
KevinMarks: I have the Upload page on the wiki bookmarked on my iPod for this very reason
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tantek
for trivial uploading of mobile screenshots
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aaronpk
didn't even know there was an upload page
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tantek
aaronpk: see the footer on any wiki page when logged in
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tantek
for the link to it
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tantek
alright, if we resolve this http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-issues#implied_properties_when_an_explicit_class_is_provided by saying no implied URL in such cases, then that solves that implied property problem (similarly for u-photo)
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tantek
that just leaves implied names
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kevinmarks.com
edited /edit (+278) "/* ThinkUp */"
(view diff)
#
KevinMarks
di the screengrab on my 1x screen as the 2x one makes huge examples
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LanceyWork
!tell kylewm install.py for redwind was never updated when you started using application factories and doesn't work anymore (can't import app or db from redwind). any plans to fix it?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
LanceyWork: thanks for the heads up, yes I can totally fix that
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Loqi
kylewm: LanceyWork left you a message 45 seconds ago: install.py for redwind was never updated when you started using application factories and doesn't work anymore (can't import app or db from redwind). any plans to fix it? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27/line/1432752921306
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LanceyWork
awesome, thanks!
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tantek
alright aaronpk we're close
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tantek
now, semantically speaking, what does the text "profile photo" mean?
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KevinMarks
why is put ellipses in bullets? WTF?
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aaronpk
it's a text description of the property "u-photo"
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aaronpk
s/text description/name
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: it's a name of the property "u-photo"
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tantek
not quite, it's a contextual name
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tantek
ok wait the HTML markup does not reflect current practice
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tantek
which is that the new image is typically *embedded* in such posts
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tantek
a href=…jpg is not right
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tantek
it should be an img src=…jpg
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tantek
ok getting closer
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rhiaro
oh, I missed discussing updating profiles with micropub?!
#
rhiaro
catches up
#
rhiaro
is too sleepy to really process this
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tantek
rhiaro: specifically discussing /edit posts that update *part* of your profile
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tantek
like your photo
#
tantek
we're basing our design on real world common cases
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aaronpk
i bet linkedin has some good examples too
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tantek
much better to figure out post markup before protocols
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tantek
design from the glass down to the plumbing, not vice versa
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tantek
abstractdatamodel--
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Loqi
abstractdatamodel has -1 karma
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tantek
aaronpk: we might be done
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tantek
because right now the implied p-name is ""
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tantek
of the nested update h-card
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aaronpk
yeah, but that seems bad
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rhiaro
yuhuh
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tantek
no it's fine. you can't update a property to "", you delete it ;)
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aaronpk
i guess
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KartikPrabhu
man! micropub is getting more complex than last I checked
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rhiaro
micropub+ :)
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aaronpk
that does mean you have to check all entries in the "name" array and if they are all "" then ignore it
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tantek
rather, you do that for all property arrays
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aaronpk
or simpler, ignore any blank strings for properties
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tantek
iterate through their values, and only act on non-empty values
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tantek
phrasing in terms of a positive test / action
#
tantek
rather than negative (ignore, blank)
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+113) "stub Brainstorming / edit of a specific property"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk: this is good enough to wikify - can you copy/paste to https://indiewebcamp.com/edit#Edit_a_specific_property ?
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tantek
and note that edit consumers MUST only act-on non-empty values
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tantek
btw this would allow anyone to suggest edits of profile photos of anyone else
#
tantek
which is kind of neat
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GWG
Good afternoon
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aaronparecki.com
edited /edit (+1504) "/* Edit a specific property */ add example brainstormed in IRC http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-27#t1432751189458"
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aaronparecki.com
edited /edit (-7) "/* Edit a specific property */ remove extra pre"
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tantek
in fact, this is something FB sort of allows with other profile properties
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aaronpk
hah that's right
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aaronpk
and linkedin with their "endorsements"
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tantek
people can suggest your "city" for example
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GWG
I don't trust people to do that
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loqi.me
created /conference_slacking (+177) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by rhiaro"
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+225) "/* Edit a specific property */ clarify MUST, cite discussion link and gist iteration for historical reference (in case anyone wants to revisit the reasoning/iteration behind the brainstorm)"
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+16) "/* Edit a specific property */ ws in markup to make it more readable"
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tantek
GWG that's ok you can ignore webmentions from such /edit posts from others ;)
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GWG
I was pointing out a potential criticism
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tantek
you could also trust a service (e.g. Swarm/Foursquare) to send you such updates via webmention to automatically update your current city
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aaronpk
lol yeah
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KevinMarks
pre Google i/o TWig coming up in 30 mins if you have thinsg fro me to talk about
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aaronpk
spellchecker bot, sends you WMs with spelling corrections for your articles :)
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GWG
KevinMarks: Have fun.
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+559) "/* Silo Examples */ add Facebook since the common FB profile photo change example has helped drive this discussion"
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GWG
I'm looking for people to help me build better WordPress Indieweb tools, but that is a constant
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tantek
KevinMarks - next IndieWeb Homebrew Website Club meetup is a week from tonight - mark your calendars: https://indiewebcamp.com/next-hwc
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tantek
speaking of which
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tantek
aaronpk: are you hosting HWC PDX next week?
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aaronpk
oh yeah, sure
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tantek
GWG, any HWC NYC next week?
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tantek
post indie/FB events etc.
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aaronpk
i kinda want to do a hack night again tho
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tantek
aaronpk - that was an awesome brainstorm sesh
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GWG
aaronpk: Hack night?
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tantek
so now the question is are you going to change your site photo and post such a post manually to at least create a (manual) real world example we can cite
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aaronpk
GWG: yes, spending the hour or two working on our websites
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GWG
I'm on a plane that night, alas.
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GWG
Maybe I need to add a development environment
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tantek
aaronpk: but still take a photo!
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tantek
needs to hurry up and finish his auto-webmention sending code before aaronpk posts an example of updating his personal site photo
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tantek
… so I can comment on it more semi-automatically
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aaronpk
i don't really have a good way to make one-off posts with custom microformats properties
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aaronpk
i may need to build a way to do that... so i can experiment with stuff like this without adding infrastrcuture to my site
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tantek
aaronpk: that's what snarfed does all the time - one-off posts with custom microformats properties - and it's been very helpful to learn from what he does
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rhiaro
I can make one off posts with custom properties. I'll change my profile picture, right after I've made dinner
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tantek
oh dear
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rhiaro
what?!
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tantek
I have a feeling this will stir more kefluffle in social web wg
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rhiaro
kerfuffle++
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Loqi
kerfuffle has 1 karma
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rhiaro
(it's at the bottom of my site at the moment, at #amy)
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rhiaro
but I have a redesign of my homepage imminant
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aaronpk
what, cause we're making progress?
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tantek
is it kerfuffle or kerfluffle ?
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rhiaro
depending on how silly you feel
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rhiaro
the extra l is for silliness
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tantek
Yahoo prefers kerfuffle
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rhiaro
I mean, that's hwo I use it
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rhiaro
I've had updating profile via micrpub on my agenda for *ages*
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aaronpk
we're still a bit away from turning this update post into micropub
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tantek
but we start with a manual update/edit post
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tantek
since that's the preferred design center - closer to the user
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tantek
then see if/how micropub can generate that
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rhiaro
of course
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rhiaro
I was getting excited
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tantek
one step at a time
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aaronpk
so the real question then is... should the micropub request use the "edit-of" property instead of "url" when editing?
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aaronpk
and "delete-of" instead of "delete"?
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aaronpk
actually...why is it "edit-of", shouldn't it be "update-of", following the earlier discussion of not using new terms for things...
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tantek
aaronpk: no
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rhiaro
I was just about to say that
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tantek
it's always edit-of
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aaronpk
but.. CRUD
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rhiaro
and dt-updated
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tantek
because that's just the link
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rhiaro
and a post with an edit-of would have its on url, right?
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tantek
then you use p-update and p-delete
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rhiaro
s/on/own
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Loqi
rhiaro meant to say: and a post with an edit-of would have its own url, right?
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tantek
for the embedded object of the things updated or deleted
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rhiaro
I'm slightly confused re: update vs edit
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tantek
which you can put inside /edit post
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tantek
rhiaro: venn d: edit = updates + deletes
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rhiaro
can you put that in a gist? I can never picture nested microformats
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rhiaro
oh I see
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tantek
it's an /edit post, and can have any number of values for p-update and p-delete properties
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aaronpk
what's the value of the p-delete if it's not the URL?
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tantek
aaronpk - same as what you were brainstorming earlier - the properties and/or values to delete
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aaronpk
oh right okay, so what about deleting an entire post?
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tantek
e.g. deleting a phone number
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tantek
you want (need) to specify the whole property+value to make sure only that phone number is deleted
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aaronpk
that would be delete-of, right?
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tantek
aaronpk: no need for another *-of
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rhiaro
oh I see the confusion here
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aaronpk
but...how do you delete the whole post?
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rhiaro
whole delete/update posts vs deleting properties
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tantek
<span class="p-delete h-entry"></span> :P
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aaronpk
an empty h-entry?
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tantek
if you specify a particular property, then only that property gets deleted
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tantek
if you specify a particular property and value, then only that value of that property gets deleted
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tantek
this is exactly analogous to what we already brainstormed previously for micropub
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tantek
in the JSON that is
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aaronpk
not really, cause now you're saying if there's a "delete" property that contains an h-card and all of the properties of the h-card are empty, then that actually deletes the h-card itself
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tantek
or does it delete the whole permalink?
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tantek
is that what you're getting at?
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aaronpk
that's what i mean
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tantek
or just the h-card at that link?
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rhiaro
if a delete is an update, you can leave a delete rationale
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rhiaro
sorry if that was an aside, I'm paying half attention
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tantek
yeah the tombstone
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tantek
anyway - not to worried about it - let's exercise the update photo example first
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tantek
s/ to / too /
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: anyway - not too worried about it - let's exercise the update photo example first
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@akraland
Mon nouveau blog sur #Known http://akraland.eu et c'est garanti #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/603651662444630016)
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tantek
(and I'll ponder the question about deleting an entire permalink vs. the object at that permalink and see if it matters or is just more range14 faffing)
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aaronpk
those two are basically the same thing aside from range14, but the question is more important if there is more than one object at the URL
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aaronpk
such as an h-feed with nested h-entrys, or a home page with an h-card and h-entrys
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tantek
aaronpk: that's solve by only allowing edits of the main object
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tantek
nested stuff gets their own permalinks you're supposed to edit
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aaronpk
my home page has a bunch of h-entrys without an enclosing h-feed tho
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aaronpk
oh those all have their own URLs... hmm
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tantek
aaronpk: and as the example has established - your home page has an h-card with your site photo that you can update ;)
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tantek
the rest is generated, not edited
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tantek
aaronpk - per your earlier micropub / JSON brainstorming, the /edit post could likely use p-update, p-delete, and p-add
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KevinMarks
why is this kp slideshow available as a pdf but not scrolling html?
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tantek
KevinMarks: did you mean that for #indiechat ?
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KevinMarks
well, it's an indieweb thing, slide markup
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+238) "/* Edit a specific property */ add notes on p-delete and p-add, for deleting a property, specific value, or adding a property with a value"
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tantek
aaronpk: for now I've backed off from asserting deletion of the entire object - that may be a more special case to consider, especially per rhiaro's use case of leaving an explicit tombstone along with the 410
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tantek
wonders if rhiaro ever captured her use-case on the wiki
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tantek
what is delete?
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Loqi
A deleted is a post that has been removed https://indiewebcamp.com/delete
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rhiaro
of course!
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rhiaro
you're too persistant to ignore :)
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tantek.com
edited /deleted (+287) "/* Tombstoning */ expand, connect 410 to content returned with use-cases, separate ACL, then markup brainstorm"
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tantek
rhiaro: hopefully I kept the intent of what you meant and want ^^^
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tantek
aaronpk: changed my mind - the empty embedded object looked weird - agree with you. scoped the p-delete brainstorm to just an entire property or a specific value
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rhiaro
tantek: yeah - thanks - I wasn't really sure where to slot things in on that page
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tantek
added p-add while in there for additions
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tantek
oh oops that should have gone into brainstorming
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tantek
rhiaro: if unsure, nest inside Brainstorming :)
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rhiaro
okie dokie
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tantek.com
edited /deleted (+11) "move tombstone to brainstorming"
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tantek
rhiaro: do you have any (public) examples of /deleted posts (with or without Tombstone)
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rhiaro
if I did they'd all be "test"
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rhiaro
I do plan to add that as part of my current micropubjson+new css effort
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tantek
updates the indieweb examples on that page
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tantek.com
edited /deleted (+156) "/* IndieWeb Implementations */ IndieWeb Examples, update section to modern format"
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+93) "/* Edit a specific property */ related: user profile management user story"
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tantek.com
edited /edit (+63) "/* ThinkUp */ fix image embed"
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KevinMarks
leo says his IRC is too trolly and wants a replacement - indie thoughts?
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aaronpk
i suppose slack is out of the question?
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tantek
yeah we've been fairly lucky with IRC so far in that way
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KevinMarks
yeah, I don't want to bring the trolls over here
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tantek
KevinMarks: have you spoke to him about tummeling?
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KevinMarks
yes, he has mods
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tantek
but they're insufficient?
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tantek
hence "leo says his IRC is too trolly" ?
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KevinMarks
yes, troll flooding
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bear
the irc for twit is staffed with 10 or so mods that rotate thru the day
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bear
all volunteers and with a lot of custom tools to track ip hoppers, nick changers and all the other dozens of ways to spoof irc
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tantek
starting to sound meta -> #indiechat
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tantek
KevinMarks: can you announce IndieWebCamp 2015 July 11-12 in Portland?
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tantek
assuming you're on this Twit/Twig thing
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tantek
and reminder to everyone here: sign-up! https://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Guest_List
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werd.io
created /recommendation_engine (+746) "Recommendation engines in an indieweb context"
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tantek
someone that happened to be aggregating indie /likes could create a recommendation engine for suggested posts to read. you know, like in a /reader
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benwerd
Indeed
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aaronpk
in Monocle, there are only 2 URLs liked by more than one person right now
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aaronpk
if I group by author, it's a much more interesting set of people whose posts are being liked :)
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tantek
has become oversensitive to abstract definitions
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loqi.me
created /abstract_definition (+85) "prompted by aaronpk and dfn added by tantek"
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KevinMarks
"Re-Imagining Content... It’s Increasingly User-Generated / Curated & Surprising" - meeker
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tantek.com
edited /recommendation_engine (+869) "include specific relatable examples in dfn, split into subsections, add silo examples, and more indie brainstorming"
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KevinMarks
"Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet"
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tantek
benwerd ^^^ is this more of what you meant? https://indiewebcamp.com/recommendation_engine
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benwerd
tantek: That's a lot of additional useful detail / structure, yes
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tantek
oh wait I think we have Twitter examples
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tantek
benwerd: is this an example of a recommendation engine at work? https://indiewebcamp.com/who_to_follow
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@kevinmarks
“Imagine That... Users Generating Their Content Are Recreating Their Internet” - @marymeeker #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/603674611964878848)
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tantek.com
edited /who_to_follow (+70) "likely using recommendation engine"
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benwerd
tantek: A recommendation engine in a social networking profile context. Yes. That's the kind of thing I'm looking to figure out how to build.
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tantek.com
edited /recommendation_engine (+94) "/* Silo Examples */ Twitter"
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Vendan
is there anything special I should do for my party on that guestlist? just sign up as a remote participant?
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tantek
definitely sign up as a remote participant
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tantek
solo party? or what capacity? net connection that can support talky IO?
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snarfed
benwerd: out of curiosity, are users asking for it? or you just think they'd like it?
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tantek
Vendan, at some point you could become another site for the *Camp that others could RSVP to
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Vendan
probably could do up to 10? It's at the hackerspace I'm a member of, they're ok with me opening the doors for anyone to come to the camp
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benwerd
snarfed: It's core to something but Known users aren't asking for it. In terms of Known, the single biggest thing is now "more templates" and "an app".
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benwerd
(The, er, two single biggest things.)
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tantek
Vendan - great! Then I'd say if you can find a co-organizer that can commit to helping you organize, go for it!
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Vendan
we got a "hangout room" with a couch and room for probably 2~3 at desks, and a presentation room with a projector and a more desks
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Vendan
a couple*
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tantek
benwerd - would such a recommendation engine also help with the "empty home page" onboarding problem?
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benwerd
tantek: Yes, in conjunction with a reader to click through to.
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tantek
or is that something else? since there is no behavioral data to draw from
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Vendan
not sure there's really any other indieweb people in Central NC region, but I'm going to post on the hackerspace's google group with the info
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KevinMarks
we could find the old school blog types there
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tantek.com
edited /recommendation_engine (+52) "services to silos - 4-tell"
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snarfed
benwerd: got it. i definitely buy the reader part, but i wonder a bit about a recommendation engine. that could be just me though, not representative. (more: https://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond##Unfortunately )
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benwerd
snarfed: It's actually to make search more relevant / not just semantic.
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snarfed
search! ah, that's different. cool.
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snarfed
(and i assume s/semantic/keyword/ :P)
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benwerd
So yes, it could help with blank page syndrome and a few other things, but making search work well, based on your own activity, and potentially based on your own tweaked algorithm!, is an interesting problem that I don't know enough about.
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benwerd
And yes.
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kylewm
sounds like the kind of thing that would be pretty easy to do poorly and very hard to do well :)
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benwerd
Indeed :)
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tantek.com
edited /recommendation_engine (+170) "/* Twitter */ mention a few more Twitter features"
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tantek.com
edited /recommendation_engine (+79) "add Why question that begs it"
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tantek
benwerd could you add some of that to https://indiewebcamp.com/recommendation_engine#Why ?
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werd.io
edited /recommendation_engine (+258) "/* Why */"
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tantek.com
edited /note (-1) "fix frag link"
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KevinMarks
leo says he has indieweb questions coming up
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KevinMarks
he was talking about using Parse for his backend
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aaronpk
benwerd: just don't start sending out those "popular in your network" emails ;)
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KevinMarks
mentioned indiewebcamp
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KevinMarks
irc comment that the website needs redesign (maybe on mobile)
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KevinMarks
wow, was that nearly 3 hours?
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gRegorLove
Speaking of wiki redesign, I wanted to work on customizing the design made at IWC 2015 per the feedback I was collecting https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/redesign#Issues
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gRegorLove
If I'm digging into MediaWiki though, it would probably be a good idea to update our MW version first, so I might do that. aaronpk said he could get me a zip of the plugins/db so I can set up a local copy.
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gRegorLove
I think ben_thatmustbeme was talking about upgrading MW a while back. Not sure if he got anywhere with that? Don't want to redo any existing work.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek will have a bunch of objections that I can predict and agree with :P
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KartikPrabhu
particularly "If the user doesn’t want your icon on his home screen [...] it’s the web they want"
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bret
react is doing some insane things to bridge the native/web performance gap. wish it wasnt so frameworky though. and no jsx >:[
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: that article is meh
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yup! not a very convincing argument but people seem to be convinced
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bret
https://github.com/tadeuzagallo/GithubPulse is a javascript app that feels as solid as dropbox's app
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tantek
people do build things? or people that just send emails?
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bret
have you cats played with electron yet? its my new favorite thing: https://github.com/atom/electron
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: trivial debunking in a follow-up comment to someone else that posted that on my FB POSSE copy