#indiewebcamp 2015-05-14

2015-05-14 UTC
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kylewm still a lot of work for someone who isn't interested in twiddling bits
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KevinMarks_ still no images in wordpress
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KevinMarks_ :(
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ WP is just being picky about data in img src I think
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kylewm also, that's pretty rad that Quill would be a draw for someone to check out indieweb
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_ what does happen in wordpress? is the src removed completely?
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KevinMarks_ looks like it <figure> <img></p> </figure>
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KevinMarks_ http://kevinmarks.tumblr.com/post/118902338435/what-if-medium-got-the-message
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tantek we have enough experience with PuSH 0.4 working on personal sites, and it makes enough of a difference in indie readers (the realtime experience), that it's worth adding it explicitly to IndieMark Level 2 IMO
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tantek s/Level 2/Level 3
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Loqi tantek meant to say: we have enough experience with PuSH 0.4 working on personal sites, and it makes enough of a difference in indie readers (the realtime experience), that it's worth adding it explicitly to IndieMark Level 3 IMO
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: maybe some intermediate plugin does sanitization to incoming posts
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@withknown @nitinthewiz We support the indieweb technologies out of the box, fwiw. Available to download at https://withknown.com/opensource/ (twitter.com/_/status/598644785713262593)
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KevinMarks_ I haven't experimented wiht img in wp.com before
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KevinMarks_ kylewm: what if feverdream injected h-entry etc as part of the post to the wp.com & tumblr silos?
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+386) "clarify level 3 and some level 4 items, add Level 3: syndication: PuSH 0.4, "handle responses" axis with some draft levels inside it, Level 4: multiple response types incl RSVP" (view diff)
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kylewm wp.com already has hentry doesn't it? I inject some mf2, u-in-reply-to, u-in-like-of at least.
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tantek alright I made some medium size mods to IndieMark level 3 and level 4 based upon general implementation trends in the community (e.g. PuSH 0.4 support, multiple response types)
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tantek please review everyone, I think most folks active in this channel have most (if not all) of Level 3 and most of Level 4 as well - see if it's at least semi-reasonably worded (at least as compared to before) https://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#Level_3
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@aaronpk @nitinthewiz I'm pretty sure you only need the Micropub plugin to use Quill with Wordpress. #IndieWeb (twitter.com/_/status/598657345409843200)
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kylewm just got an email from Heroku that my free tier apps will be migrated to the new pricing model July 1st, that is very soon!
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kylewm I thought maybe existing free apps would be grandfathered in for a while
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kylewm Dave Winer made the point that their old model seemed to be "use our platform for free until your app takes off, then we both profit!"
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kylewm interesting shift in strategy
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@nitinthewiz @aaronpk the authentication process is best solved by the IndieWeb plugin, which then calls for 3 more plugins to be installed. (twitter.com/_/status/598663136833445888)
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aaronpk hmm i think that is not the case
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aaronpk i'm not super familiar with the wordpress stuff, but i thought if you had rel=me links on your wordpress home page then the micropub plugin would work
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GWG aaronpk: It does.
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Loqi GWG: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 37 minutes ago: do you support PuSH 0.3 on your Atom feed, or PuSH 0.4 on your h-feed, or both? https://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#David_Shanske http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-13/line/1431551848444
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KevinMarks Hm, so I need to check my Heroku apps too?
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tantek all of a sudden that whole web hosting portability thing matters more doesn't it?
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KevinMarks I wonder if I still have the "don't charge him" flag at from working at Salesforce
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GWG tantek: I don't think anyone wrote a 0.4 plugin for WordPress, so 0.3 I think.
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tantek kylewm: could you update at least the summary at the top of /Heroku re: free tier expiring soon? Add more too.
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KevinMarks Kevinmarks.com is static enough that I can move it easily
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tantek GWG, no pfefferle has and is running it
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KevinMarks Noterlive.com is a bit more work
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GWG tantek: Then I'd better look.
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tantek Other Heroku apps in the community: https://indiewebcamp.com/Heroku#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek GWG see https://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH#WordPress_Plugins_for_PuSH
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tantek "An alternative, that also supports PubSubHubbub v0.4, is the PubSubHubbub Plugin. "
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tantek https://wordpress.org/plugins/pubsubhubbub/
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kylewm there is still a free tier that can be up up to 18 hours/day
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tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH#Matthias_Pfefferle
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kylewm probably good enough for NoterLive?
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GWG tantek: There was a reason for my decision. I have to go review it
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GWG tantek: Just working on a rewrite of something.
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GWG Will make a note
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kylewm but probably not for webmention.herokuapp.com nor kevinmarks.com :/
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tantek GWG - when you remember the reason - can you document it here? https://indiewebcamp.com/PuSH#WordPress_Plugins_for_PuSH
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tantek kylewm: that's definitely worth warning people about at the top of /Heroku !
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GWG I'm fixing something in Post Kinds so I can bump the version number after that whole annoyance this morning.
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kylewm tantek: heading out the door, but i will document tonight!
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tantek thanks kylewm appreciated!
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tantek GWG - good call
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GWG tantek: I'm still annoyed by it. I fixed the thing and it got retweeted all over the place.
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tantek GWG - I suppose that's because of the lack of version # bump?
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tantek note: always bump version number for security fixes
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GWG Yes. I'm new to this.
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GWG I was working on the next version
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kylewm tantek: GWG: pfefferle's plugin delegates to superfeedr, i'm 90% sure (as opposed to PushPress which implements its own 0.3 compat hub)
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GWG I think that was why I picked the self-hosted version
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tantek kylewm: then why does it claim PuSH 0.4 support?
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tantek oh wait - superfeedr is what I'm using too
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tantek having 0.4 support (over 0.3) is more important than running your own hub
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tantek KevinMarks: please take notes on what you had to do to switch things away from Heroku
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tantek would be great to capture that on the wiki
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tantek with the real world experience
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kylewm Winer has documented his move from Heroku to AWS in great detail, just fyi
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tantek Last time I attempted to understand / "solve" the larger problem of deployment (not just migration), I ended up brainstorming / researching this: https://indiewebcamp.com/deployment which has more questions than answers :/
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kylewm.com edited /Heroku (+359) "/* Costs */ note new pricing model" (view diff)
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Vendan heh, I also go with single file deployment
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KevinMarks I spent a little time trying to make stuff cross post to Google and Amazon, but got too annoyed by it
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KevinMarks Maybe I should revive that
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kylewm I think I was wrong, it doesn't look like Winer documented his transition to Amazon
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kylewm KevinMarks: what means "cross post to Google and Amazon"?
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Vendan store assets on S3 and similar from heroku?
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KevinMarks Yes, I set up g.kevinmarks.com and a.kevinmarks.com
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KevinMarks But didn't get the automatic copying over working
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KevinMarks Also, Amazon sucks at cross data centre routing
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KevinMarks And co fig in general tbh
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KevinMarks Hm, micropub api to posting to s3/google cloud?
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Vendan I don't really recommend it for indieweb, but I did have fun learning how to get wercker to build and deploy binaries to my server
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KevinMarks If I do that, then I can have a micropub POSSE fanout, using known and feverdream
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KevinMarks Can I just run go on appengine? I assume it is efficient enough to make the free tier good
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Vendan most likely, though go has some "issues" on appengine
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Vendan there's certain things you can't do on GAE in go
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KevinMarks I remember talking to the Heroku people a couple of years ago, and they said that they set up the pricing model so that ruby apps would end up paying them, but that node ones were more efficient
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Vendan realistically, go is also efficient enough to do a lot on a $10~$15/year vps
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Vendan bear in mind, for a go app, you don't even need a web server. go's stdlib web server is very well built
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Vendan most golang stuff ends up just being done using http proxy if it's behind apache or lighttpd
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Vendan just as a point of pride, my current indieweb software, even with loading and rendering notes and profile info, and without any caching
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Vendan handles 3283 requests per second
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Vendan which, in the current state, would involve sending 57 megabits per second of data
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Vendan not even sure the network stuff it's on would really handle it
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GWG Okay, Version 1.4.0 out.
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GWG I can now relax for a few
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Vendan heh, interesting idea: site where you can indieauth and have it run a siege of your site, and get a report of requests/second and data transfer/second
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Vendan cause tests like that are better from remote
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Vendan hrm, I've read through the PuSH specs, and it looks like running a hub as part of your server, and just triggering off notifications to subscribers, is perfectly legitimate. Probably gonna write a library for golang that'll let you add PuSH pub/hub to a site really easily
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KevinMarks http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-05-10
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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@oliverandrich Alles was man zu Facebook Instant Articles sagen muss. Indieweb FTW! https://twitter.com/JeremiahLee/status/598675071956221952 (twitter.com/_/status/598741949735141376)
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KevinMarks_ hm, think I found a bug in rel-urls parsing: http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.tumblr.com%2F&html=&pretty=on
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KartikPrabhu the bug being?
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KartikPrabhu oh micropub?
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@red_web RT @oliverandrich: Alles was man zu Facebook Instant Articles sagen muss. Indieweb FTW! https://twitter.com/JeremiahLee/status/598675071956221952 (twitter.com/_/status/598748299974279168)
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KartikPrabhu i must admit I haven't fully grokked the rel-url parsing
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KevinMarks_ it's putting the full text of the body as text inside the rel link
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KevinMarks_ can't reproduce locally though
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@mickymetts http://indiewebcamp.com/ is a very interesting idea for an alternative for publishers to look at. https://twitter.com/TreborS/status/598415483868581888 (twitter.com/_/status/598752411679789056)
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KartikPrabhu strange
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KevinMarks_ wondering if this is ome html5lib interaction
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@BdzvPresse RT @oliverandrich: Alles was man zu Facebook Instant Articles sagen muss. Indieweb FTW! https://twitter.com/JeremiahLee/status/598675071956221952 (twitter.com/_/status/598776303458844672)
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@mapkyca @benwerd But you could equally say "while identity is needed to get a domain, I'm fundamentally opposed to #indieweb" (twitter.com/_/status/598777448034078720)
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@pintman Meine Linktipps zum Feiertag: #Gobby #Retro #FHS #Desktop #c’t #Bildungsrevolution https://www.bakera.de/wp/2015/05/sammelsurium-gobby-retro-fhs-desktop-ct-bildungsrevolution-indieweb-xmpp/ #fb (twitter.com/_/status/598785274626371584)
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@dkreuz RT @kevinmarks: “So what happens when Facebook goes away?” Notes on the Surrender at Menlo Park http://www.theawl.com/2015/05/what-could-go-wrong #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/598792165364539392)
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petermolnar that gif on that theawl site is spooky
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petermolnar question: am I just imagining or is there a silent mass silo-quit upon us?
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petermolnar I'm reading more and more articles of people leaving networks, but most of them just silently disappear
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tommorris schema 2.0 is now out: http://blog.schema.org/2015/05/schema.html and http://schema.org/docs/releases.html
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tommorris interesting
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tommorris and despite RDF being inherently extensible, schema.org now has its own half-baked extension mechanism called PropertyValue. http://schema.org/PropertyValue
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tommorris screams quietly to himself.
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LukasRos tommorris: A lot of people seem to be convinced that using RDF with more than one ontology/namespace makes it too complicated for anyone to use and reinvent things over again.
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tommorris but using somethinglike myownnamespace:property is a lot less complicated than PropertyValues.
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tommorris it's almost as if Google have discovered that extensibility is useful even though microdata was built on the assumption that extensibility isn't useful.
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tommorris this is why I drink.
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LukasRos All that linked data stuff is highly controversial but I’m sure alcohol is no solution to it ;)
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@hosttor RT @mickymetts: http://indiewebcamp.com/ is a very interesting idea for an alternative for publishers to look at. https://twitter.com/TreborS/status/598415483868581888 (twitter.com/_/status/598809014793805825)
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petermolnar are there any news on IndieWebCamp Brighton? As in a slightly more specific when then September?
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@glennjones Back after 5 days at @indiewebcamp and @btconf in Düsseldorf. Events made so much better by a great crowd of friendly and welcoming people (twitter.com/_/status/598820466678210560)
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GWG Good morning, all
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petermolnar good morning
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GWG petermolnar: Anything new there?
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petermolnar apart from me considering dropping all my social media accounts, nothing
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petermolnar ( partly thanks to Facebook's new idea of showing actual content of 3rd party on FB itself without navigating to other sites )
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GWG petermolnar: I consider it all the time.
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petermolnar what are your reasons?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "your reasons" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=your+reasons&summary=prompted+by+petermolnar+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-14%2Fline%2F1431605585619
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petermolnar No, Loqi, that was not a question like that
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GWG petermolnar: I find these sites frustrating.
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LukasRos petermolnar + GWG: What prevents you from leaving Facebook then?
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GWG LukasRos: Cutting myself off from opportunities for interaction is an issue.
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Vendan I have, for a long time now, refused to even touch FB
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LukasRos GWG: Yes, agreed, there are few people you only interact with on FB and one certainly does not want to cut oneself off from the social sphere.
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Vendan I'm torn on twitter, though the short messages bug me. How many people still tweet from SMS?
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GWG I'm not an extremely active user of anything. I don't post much on any network.
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petermolnar LukasRos living abroad makes day-to-day interactions w/ friends & family @ home hard
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petermolnar Vendan I think a big mass had been quietly abandoning twitter for about half a year now
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Vendan main thing I like about it is that most of my friends are on it
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Vendan I really feel like I just want to post to my own site, and send titles and a link to twitter
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LanceyWork well it's a good thing the indieweb paradigm exists then
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GWG Vendan: That would be POSSE, one of the core things here.
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Vendan yeap
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Vendan working on getting webmention stuff working, then it's going to be a toss-up between micropub and POSSE
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Vendan as well as building a PuSH hubby thing
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GWG If you already have a post UI, I'd do POSSE first
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Vendan I've halfassed a post ui
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Vendan I'm kinda thinking of getting micropub working, and using it for my editor
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bret !tell snarfed is it possible to update youtube-dl to 2015.05.10 on huffduff video? it fixes some bugs on ustream
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bret loqiiiii
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ben_thatmustbeme woah
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ben_thatmustbeme no Loqi
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LukasRos OMG they killed Loqi :(
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LukasRos I was already wondering why no wiki edits came in IRC.
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petermolnar even Loqi has to sleep sometimes
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ben_thatmustbeme but i think that means no web IRC client
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather no text fed back to it
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ben_thatmustbeme well the ?beta one anyway
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kylewm the job of FB bug reviewers seems to be, deflect, deny, redirect
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kylewm Will he be caught in my inescapable logic trap?? https://developers.facebook.com/bugs/449024225257676/?comment_id=1442357469393732
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Vendan refuse to log into fb, so I can't read that
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kylewm Vendan: reposted to the github tracker https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/403#issuecomment-102079431
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aaronpk does anyone have logs of this channel since 05:41 PDT?
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kylewm I do
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aaronpk could you put them in a gist or something? I need to backfill since Loqi and my client were offline
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Loqi woot!
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Vendan heh, I've got a znc with history, and generally 2 irc clients connected at all times
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aaronpk yeah me too, but my ZNC server went down!
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kylewm aaronpk: https://gist.github.com/kylewm/7b5e8b471bab0c68a23e
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aaronpk swee tthanks
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kylewm why the f does it say my age in the FB support forum
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Vendan cause fb has your age and doesn't give a shit about you?
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aaronpk what the heck, my other server just crashed too
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petermolnar I hope you didn't make the mistake I did by having 'stable' in my repo list + unattended upgrades turned on on my Debian box... brrr...
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aaronpk unlikely, this server is very old :(
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ben_thatmustbeme does funtoo (gentoo var) and does lots of unstable things
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aaronpk having my server offline is like walking around without an arm
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@LukasRosenstock "The Walled Gardens Of The Web Are Growing" and we need an #open web / #IndieWeb to keep them in check: http://readwrite.com/2015/05/13/walled-gardens-of-the-web?utm_content=buffer039ef&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer (twitter.com/_/status/598891819586428928)
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KevinMarks http://www.leoville.net/2015/posting-with-quill
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ben_thatmustbeme quiet day today
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ben_thatmustbeme ooh, cool
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aaronpk nice!
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aaronpk looks like that was in fact a good choice of a project to work on last weekend
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ben_thatmustbeme needs to learn to make things pretty
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kylewm aaronpk++ that's a very nice endorsement!!
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Loqi aaronpk has 809 karma
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aaronpk i'm tempted to add a checkbox to the publish dialog that will include embedded CSS rules for the page
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aaronpk that way i can make the images float properly without you needing to modify your site css
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Vendan quill is actually one of the reasons I'm looking at just going straight for micropub, rather then trying to make a decent post ui
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kylewm looks up when aaronpk decided to write quill on a whim
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kylewm http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-23/line/1400910938000
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aaronpk almost a year ago!
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aaronpk how'd you find that so fast
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kylewm I looked it up before announcing my intention to look it up :p
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aaronpk :P
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aaronpk haha http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-05-25/line/1401069117000
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme well, changed to sending webmentions immediately when I post
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ben_thatmustbeme no more queue
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kylewm.com created /golang (+16) "Redirected page to [[Go]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /Golang (+16) "Redirected page to [[Go]]" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Go (+31) "add indieWeb Exampls section" (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ kylewm: any ideas on what is going on here: http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.tumblr.com%2F&html=&pretty=on
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KevinMarks_ I can't reproduce it locally - how do I switch which html parser it's using?
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kylewm the only way to do it is to install/uninstall different ones
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kylewm I guess it is because the <links> are not properly closed
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KevinMarks_ ah, so libxml will think they are xml tags, nto html ones?
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kylewm huh, I would've thought lxml should still work, it should be using lxml.html
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kylewm I could use some guidance on how those links should be closed properly. the page seems to have two doctypes :/
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KevinMarks_ yeah, not sure how that happened
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KevinMarks_ I set it up with the default template years ago
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kylewm hmm, I removed the close tags from the instructions on 4/18, I think we discussed it in the channel
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KevinMarks_ I just read about UnicodeDammit.detwingle()
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KevinMarks_ which is the replacement for my original breathtaking hack
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KevinMarks_ aha, diagnose
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kylewm I guess I did it because my default theme on tumblr on kylemahan.tumblr.com didn't have self-closing link tags
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kylewm but note this looks terrible too http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http://kylemahan.tumblr.com/
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kylewm it has two <!DOCTYPE html>'s but they are not conflicting at least...
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KevinMarks_ it's html.parser being weird I think
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KevinMarks_ it makes <link> and <meta> nest
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kylewm python 2?
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KevinMarks_ yep, appengine is 2.7
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KevinMarks_ so I should add html5lib to unmung then
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KevinMarks_ wonders if mf2py should insist on it
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kylewm html5lib has its own problems unfortunately
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KevinMarks_ right, but it doesn't completely cock up elements
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KevinMarks_ hah http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2015/05/14/the-bunny-theory-of-code/
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aaronpk does anyone else distinguish between publish date vs start/end date of events?
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aaronpk events being things you'd see on either http://aaronparecki.com/travel or http://aaronparecki.com/events
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KevinMarks_ publish date is important if you want other people to join you there
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aaronpk how so?
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KevinMarks_ well, you need it to be in advance
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aaronpk right. i've been adding things to events and travel well in advance, but it's kind of weird because they look like future-dated posts right now
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KevinMarks_ future dated posts are tricky
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rhiaro I have a similar problem, where I sort by published date but display end dates on things that have start/end dates, which is really just a bug but I haven't decided what the best resolution is
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aaronpk here's the thing... I *want* my events and travel pages to sort by the event date, not publish date
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rhiaro because I want to display when the event is
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rhiaro yeah
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rhiaro but for push notifications, published date matters
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aaronpk so i'm thining i need a separate page that sorts my posts based on publish date, so readers/PuSH/consumers can find all the new things there
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aaronpk a changelog of sorts
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aaronpk and it'd probably only link to the real posts, not show any content of its own
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aaronpk "aaron created an event" "aaron updated an event"
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kylewm this is sounding very ActivityStreamsy
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aaronpk indeed
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rhiaro I wasn't sure how far to go with displaying post content
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aaronpk you certainly could, but I think for mine it's going to be just links. we'll see.
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rhiaro I even almost stopped short at putting in titles of posts, and the actual links of things I liked/replied to/bookmarked
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aaronpk mainly because I want to keep the emphasis on my noun-centric and first-person perspective of things
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aaronpk e.g. there is very intentionally no third-person text on my website yet, so if I add it, I want to make sure it's distinct and there for a good reason
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rhiaro yeah
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rhiaro think of it as notifications for other people
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rhiaro (/readers)
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rhiaro if it's normal to publish our own notifications that get pushed out, we get more control over what other people see from us. But on the other hand it's less work to delegate deciding what a notification should look like to whatever is displaying it to someone
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rhiaro from the actual content posted
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aaronpk oh are you talking about the difference between publishing an english string like "aaron created an event" vs properties that describe that activity?
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rhiaro a bit
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aaronpk i intend to publish both
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rhiaro but in the vein of control is also deciding when people see it, and what people see on our sites, as in when you want to back/future date posts but need notifications pushed out
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rhiaro or want people to be notified of something but not have it on homepage feed
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rhiaro aaronpk: would you expect/anticipate/prefer readers to subscribe to your changelog *rather than* your homepage feed?
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aaronpk hmm yes
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aaronpk i may solve this by putting a visible version of this feed on my home page
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rhiaro yeah
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rhiaro like facebook has the main feed of posts and the little right hand feed of banal stuff
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aaronpk might even un-markup the main posts on my home page and replace it with this
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rhiaro ooh interesting
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aaronpk i dunno, i still have some thinking to do
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rhiaro it needn't even be human-visible, but I know that's frowned up on around these parts
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aaronpk also there are sadly some internal architecture things i need to fix before i can really do this
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: so you have something that subscribes you to your incoming activity to generate nofications?
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rhiaro as in, is it just like you'd subscribe to any other feed?
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KevinMarks_ OK, fixed unmung by adding in html5lib http://www.unmung.com/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Fkevinmarks.tumblr.com%2F&html=&pretty=on
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ben_thatmustbeme not yet, but that was the general idea
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KevinMarks_ we shoudl probably warn about html-parser in mf2py, tommorris kylewm
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ben_thatmustbeme ben.thatmustbe.me/activity (for those that are interested
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: so just to clarify, how are your notifications generated?
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tommorris KevinMarks_: what's the issue? File on GitHub?
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rhiaro distinction between publishing a feed of your activities so *other people* get correct notifications of what you do vs. publishing a feed of other people's activities on your posts so *you* get the noticifications you want
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rhiaro or a combination of both
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aaronpk now i want both
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rhiaro which is more efficient? (if everybody did the same)
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KevinMarks_ html.parser was doing dodgy things with unclosed link and meta (like nesting them and somehow deciding that body was inside them)
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KevinMarks_ I haven't completely isolated it
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aaronpk what does "more efficient" have to do with it?
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kylewm KevinMarks_: html5lib is already required by mf2py's setup.py
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: currently any time i parse a webmention (or rather store a "interaction" as I call them) i hit google cloud messaging and it notifies my browsers
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ben_thatmustbeme that activity list is basically a straight feed of "interactions"
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rhiaro ah right, thanks
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ben_thatmustbeme i use the quotes because there was a long debate about correct names
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KevinMarks_ right, but running on appengine wihtout explicitly installing it was using html.parser
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rhiaro so that's just from what you store, the list itself doesn't get parsed by anything?
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KevinMarks_ maybe ask for html5lib explicitly?
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kylewm confirmed that the html.parser problem exists in Python3.4 as well
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kylewm KevinMarks_: is there any way we can require either lxml or html5lib?
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kylewm I don't want to exclude lxml which generally seems to be less buggy and faster
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: I do plan to make that available to those that want it, sure its another spot to feed in, but I don't think everyone publishing that feed is really what you want. as that would mean you basically have to subscribe to everyone you want a single notification from. I think we need this stream of activities on both sides
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ben_thatmustbeme by "it" i mean outgoing activities
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ben_thatmustbeme its the difference of subscribing to updates that effect me vs updates that friends have done
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Loqi [mention] http://haverholm.com/2015/05/14/on-the-politics-of-fear-by-benwerd/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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vendaria.net created /User:Vendaria.net (+269) "Created page with "=== IndieWeb === Running [https://github.com/andyleap/indieserv IndieServ] === Libraries === * [https://github.com/andyleap/microformats github.com/andyleap/microformats] - Micr..."" (view diff)
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vendaria.net edited /Go (+73) "/* IndieWeb Examples */" (view diff)
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vendaria.net edited /Go (+192) (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ I suppose you could explicitly check that one or other is installed
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: "you basically have to subscribe to everyone you want a single notification from" - you already do that when you subscribe to someone in a reader?
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kylewm i think the BeautifulSoup constructor will take a list of which parsers you want, but its documentation is so hard to find
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rhiaro wait forget that
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@sirmlivesey This is where #indieweb tech like IndieAuth comes into it's own. You don't need to pay to be trusted, platforms can verify you. (twitter.com/_/status/598952337542139904)
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KevinMarks_ BeautifulSoup does have a 'pass me random arguments and I'll guess what you mean' attitude
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kylewm heh, the jQuery model
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: exactly, except thats not something you really want for a notifications stream. thats for a follow stream
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rhiaro ben_thatmustbeme: you could trigger notifications from webmentions any way, you don't need to publish them as a feed particularly?
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rhiaro Things you want notfications for: 1) when someone you follow does something. 2) when someone does something with one of your posts
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: that would be true if notifications contained data.. chome implementation does not. but also look at G+, FB, LinkedIn, you can always go back and view "previously read notifications"
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rhiaro 1) is subscribing in a reader, 2) is processing webmentions
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ben_thatmustbeme 1) incorrect!
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ben_thatmustbeme when someone you follow does something
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rhiaro go on?
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ben_thatmustbeme i DO NOT want a notification every time someone i follow does something
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ben_thatmustbeme this would be putting your entire facebook feed in to your notifications bar
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rhiaro I'm muddling notifications with having something appear in your feed
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rhiaro sorry
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ben_thatmustbeme when i say notifications i'm talking push notifications too (pop up on my browser / phone)
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ben_thatmustbeme wayyyyy not something i want
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ben_thatmustbeme lol
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rhiaro yeah my bad
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ben_thatmustbeme i have 30 minutes to fix broken things for work,,, bbl
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kylewm KevinMarks_: it looks like the only `feature' that includes {lxml, html5lib} and excludes {html.parser} is "permissive"
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kylewm so we could construct with BeautifulSoup4(doc, "permissive")
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KevinMarks_ or could explictly try to import html5lib and lxml and warn if neither is present
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kylewm true
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kylewm <--- Java/C++ developer cringes
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KevinMarks_ probably clearer than passing cryptic things to BeautifulSoup
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KevinMarks_ by using bs4 we're already in magic weirdness territory
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kylewm yep, agreed
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ben_thatmustbeme phew, fixed it
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ben_thatmustbeme i won't have to stay late
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KartikPrabhu what is with people putting different titles on articles in the text and <title> tags :P
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "with people putting different titles on articles in the text and <title> tags :P" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=with+people+putting+different+titles+on+articles+in+the+text+and+%3Ctitle%3E+tags+%3AP&summary=prompted+by+KartikPrabhu+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-14%2Fline%2F1431637903639
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KartikPrabhu examples: https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150514-the-particle-that-broke-a-cosmic-speed-limit/ https://briankoberlein.com/2015/05/14/and-yet-here-we-are/
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KartikPrabhu makes it harder to find tab
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KartikPrabhu both of those look like Wordpress from the source. any idea if Wordpress is responsible for this?
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ben_thatmustbeme KartikPrabhu: with that first one it looks like what the title should be for the article and the title in the page/url is the clickbait form
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ben_thatmustbeme maybe they are a/b testing best titles
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: looks like it. but the second one is by an actual scientist who has a reputation for avoiding such things. So I am guessing there is some field somewhere in the CMS that asks them to put 2 different things in
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KevinMarks_ the <title> is for google/seo
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kylewm This Particle Broke a Cosmic Speed Barrier and You Won't Believe What Happened Next
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KartikPrabhu :P
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ben_thatmustbeme so its a thing to make google like your page better but readers dislike it a bit more when they get there
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmmmm
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KartikPrabhu seo--
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Loqi seo has -1 karma
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KevinMarks_ whereas the facebook title is <meta property="og:title" content="The Particle That Broke a Cosmic Speed Limit | Quanta Magazine" />
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KevinMarks_ the second one the google and fb titles match
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KartikPrabhu must be some SEO title field in the CMS that forces people to write something there, otherwise why would anyone think of 2 titles for a post. One is hard enough
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bengo KartikPrabhu there are many publishers now that required their editorial to come up with a handful of titles for an Article.
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bengo Then the CMS A/B tests until it figures out which one baits the most attention
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bengo e.g. HuffPo does this
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KartikPrabhu bengo: the second one is an individual blog so I am curious as to why the author chooses to do this for every post!
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gRegorLove I don't think Yoast WordPress SEO plugin forces you to add anything, from my minimal experience
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tantek attempts to catch up on today's log
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tantek gRegorLove: you should add yourself to /irc-people :)
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tantek what is Yoast WordPress SEO plugin?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Yoast WordPress SEO plugin" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Yoast+WordPress+SEO+plugin&summary=prompted+by+tantek+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-05-14%2Fline%2F1431641413596
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gRegorLove Huh?
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gRegorLove Oh, nick change
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gRegorLove *and* timezone change
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gregorlove.com edited /IRC_People (+3) "/* Nicknames */ nick+tz change" (view diff)
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gRegorLove Yoast WordPress SEO plugin is https://yoast.com/wordpress/plugins/seo/
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loqi.me created /Yoast_WordPress_SEO_plugin (+97) "prompted by tantek https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-14/line/1431641413596 and dfn added by gRegorLove" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek looks into the multiple titles nonsense
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vendaria.net edited /User:Vendaria.net (+234) (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the example you gave https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150514-the-particle-that-broke-a-cosmic-speed-limit/ has a very simple difference in name of article on page, and <title>
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tantek s/very simple/somewhat simple
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Loqi tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: the example you gave https://www.quantamagazine.org/20150514-the-particle-that-broke-a-cosmic-speed-limit/ has a somewhat simple difference in name of article on page, and <title>
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tantek the <title> has Ultrahigh-Energy Cosmic Rays Traced to Hotspot | Quanta Magazine
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tantek that trailing " | Quanta Magazine" is the kind of thing commonly appended (separator + name of site) in <title>s - for multiple reasons
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tantek if you bookmark the page (e.g. in the browser), the information of which site it came from is useful context to the title
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tantek similarly in history menus, autocomplete etc.
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tantek all user-centric reasons to do so
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tantek now the more challenging question is why does the visible article name "The Particle That Broke a Cosmic Speed Limit" differ so much from the <title> article name "Ultrahigh-Energy Cosmic Rays Traced to Hotspot"
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tantek I can only surmise that there was a magazine editor type person involved that customized the visible article name, and neglected to update the less visible <title>
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KevinMarks_ or they want the title used for searching, and the tagline for click bait
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KevinMarks_ them putting it in the invisible og:title implies that
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tantek both those titles are clickbaity though so I don't see that as an explanation of using one over the other
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KartikPrabhu tantek: true. but like I said I have noticed these even in personal sites and most of them look to have a common CMS behind the source code
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the reasons I gave apply to personal site usability as well
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tantek no need to assume SEO antics
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KartikPrabhu hmm I don't think these people are directly manipulating the HTML though
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KartikPrabhu hence the "[...]customized the visible article name, and neglected to update the less visible <title>" seems unlikely
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KartikPrabhu but I am guessing of course
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tantek I didn't mean to imply direct HTML manipulation per se
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tantek they could be using a CMS UI to edit the visible article name vs. what goes into the <title> element
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes that is what I am suggesting. I wonder why the CMS has 2 title fields :P
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KartikPrabhu as in UX-wise it seems weird to have such a CMS design
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gRegorLove The second example is definitely in WordPress UI, that SEO plugin I mentioned.
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gRegorLove The different titles on the second one didn't seem clickbait-y to me.
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tantek could be - classic bad UI mistake - look there are two things we can edit in the source code - let's use that plumbing-flexibliity and propagate it 1:1 into the UI
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KartikPrabhu yeah. Both HTML sources look very similar to Wordpress outputs
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gRegorLove Didn't look at first source. Second source says exactly what it is.
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KartikPrabhu both articles are pretty sound as science-writing goes. which is why I guessed the CMS-UX issue rather than deliberate click-bait
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tantek this second one? https://briankoberlein.com/2015/05/14/and-yet-here-we-are/
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KartikPrabhu yeah
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tantek article name "And Yet, Here We Are " - completely content free / useless for click bait or search
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tantek whereas <title> is more baity "The impossible star that isn&#039;t impossible"
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KartikPrabhu yes. it is a cheeky title
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tantek almost as if the visible article name is a subtitle compared to the <title>
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KartikPrabhu yes. it seems the url slug and visible title come from the same thing, but the <title> comes from somewhere else
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tantek unrelated - the array of share buttons are one of the most inoffensive I've seen
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tantek the side-by-side rectangular clickable links under "Share this entry"
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tantek note that I'm also viewing this w/o JS
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tantek so all I'm seeing there are fallback <a href> links
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KartikPrabhu nice
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tantek odd that the URL for the Twitter button uses ?p=4042 instead of the more human friendly permalink with slug
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tantek e.g. the way the G+ button does next to it
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tantek and the Pinterest button/link has URL, title, and an *image* to use with it!
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tantek the Tumblr button/link has URL, name, and a longer description as well
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gRegorLove WordPress generates slugs from the core 'title' field, which is what's in the <h1> too. The Yoast plugin replaces the <title> if you enter an alternate SEO title (and fills in the og:crap)
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KartikPrabhu aah there we go :P
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KartikPrabhu really I mean, just use visible descriptive titles!
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gRegorLove Yeah, I think Brian's <title>s seem fine and would look good displayed in the page (subtitles optional)
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KartikPrabhu right. and his actual visible title could very well be a cheeky subtitle
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KartikPrabhu like here: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog :P
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@jansauer RT @adactio: “Indieweb: Die Daten Sind Wir!” https://twitter.com/adactio/status/598238450853224448/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/598986170631065601)
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tantek gRegorLove: perhaps add that summary snippet about Yoast plugin to the page?
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bret rad!
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Loqi bret: tantek left you a message 1 day, 1 hour ago: any plans to support PuSH 0.4 on your h-feed? I assume this means you're only supporting PuSH 0.3 on your Atom feed currently: https://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#Bret_Comnes http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-05-13/line/1431551814364
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bret tantek: i support push on my hfeed already iirc
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gRegorLove Sure, though it does a ton more I'm not familiar with. I've just seen it on a lot of client WordPress installs and know that much :)
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tantek bret, do you remember when you started supporting PuSH 0.4 on your h-feed?
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tantek did you post about it?
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bret http://viewsource.in/http://bret.io/#L34
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bret ah no, i can check git blame real quick
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kylewm bret: by what mechanism do send pings when git updates?
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kylewm curl?
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bret gh-pages page build event
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kylewm oh, cool
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kylewm (worth documenting)
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tantek that's just a link to superfeedr right? how can you tell that's 0.4 support ?
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bret so... noisily
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bret its on an html page?
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bret pre 0.4 didnt do html right?
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tantek right
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bret tantek: added march 20 2015 https://github.com/bcomnes/bcomnes.github.io/commit/a29b0bf5cb26871f1c1002a2f8078b941c820fca
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tantek bret, great! can you add that with that citation to what you already have here https://indiewebcamp.com/PubSubHubbub#Bret_Comnes ?
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tantek (presumably you didn't drop PuSH support for your Atom feed - or did you?)
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bret yar
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bret nope!
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bret its still on the atom feed
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bret.io edited /PubSubHubbub (+153) "/* Bret Comnes */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /PubSubHubbub (+3) "/* Bret Comnes */" (view diff)
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tantek reads back through the discussions about notifications vs reading between rhiaro and ben_thatmustbeme
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tantek interesting discussion
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tantek though I'd say there's a lot of overlap between such notifications "about your stuff" and reading "other people's stuff"
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bret im super duper itching to write my own site engine
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tantek is that in your "Itches" on your User: page?
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tantek add it! per /wikify
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tantek rhiaro, ben_thatmustbeme one example of overlap - many mobile apps try to (by default?) notify you about every thing all your friends do. E.g. IG: "so-and-so posted a photo"
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tantek or Swarm. So-and-so checked in at such-and-such.
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tantek unless you're following very few people, that's obviously too noisy to be useful
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tantek however what would be useful it maybe picking a very small subset of people to receive notifcations about their posts, the same way you get a notification when someone "publishes" a direct message to you via SMS.
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tantek s/it maybe/is maybe
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Loqi tantek meant to say: however what would be useful is maybe picking a very small subset of people to receive notifcations about their posts, the same way you get a notification when someone "publishes" a direct message to you via SMS.
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rhiaro 1 sec, negotiating content :p
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (+381) (view diff)
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bret.io edited /User:Bret.io (-1) "/* Itching */" (view diff)
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bret tantek: it is now
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tantek bret++
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Loqi bret has 70 karma
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rhiaro yeah I was going to mention that I have to turn excess notifications off quite a lot
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gregorlove.com edited /Yoast_WordPress_SEO_plugin (+629) "expand, capture today's conversation" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com moved /Yoast_WordPress_SEO_plugin to /WordPress_SEO_by_Yoast "Canonical name as listed in WordPress plugin directory"
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gregorlove.com edited /WordPress_SEO_by_Yoast (-1) "udpate dfn, phrasing" (view diff)
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tantek does anyone here on WP use it?
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bret aaronpk: do you still like having separate post and metadata files?
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tantek catches up on http://werd.io/content/statusupdates/
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bret tantek: have you documented anywhere what would be involved in turning a micropub into a live falcon post?
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bret the process/workflow
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bret or a semi-detailed posting workflow now
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