#indiewebcamp 2015-04-13

2015-04-13 UTC
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bengo @kylewm wrt authenticating incoming requests. ID Tokens are really rad: https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2013/04/04/ID-Tokens
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kylewm bengo: special case of JWT?
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bengo Yeah, basically
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bengo OIDC is basically just oAuth2 + JWT+ some conventions around how one uses some of the JWT values and oAuth2 concepts
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bengo e.g. self-issued ID Tokens may be relevant for indieweb. Haven't studied it much http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-core-1_0.html#SelfIssuedValidation
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snarfed ooh, wait, this is a democracy, right?
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snarfed i vote tokens.indieauth.com :P
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bengo IMO, an indieweb-friendly API MUST let me use my own authorization server instead of just tokens.indieauth.com
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bengo Supporting both is great
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bengo But OIDC ID Tokens provide for specifying the token issuing server ('iss') in the token itself, which I think is awesome
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snarfed whoa, now that's exotic
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snarfed (and would kinda conflict with link rel="token_endpoint")
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bengo I've been working on an OIDC RP server this week at work. https://lfoidc-rp-staging.herokuapp.com (won't be very interesting right now bc y'all don't have accounts on our staging server)
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kylewm bengo: you better be careful or people are going to start asking you to write wiki pages :P
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bengo That's fine. I'd prefer to publish code :) I should be able to open source hat rp server next week once I remove some clientKeys that should stay private.
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bengo It makes use of this mostly though https://github.com/gobengo/passport-openidconnect
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kylewm aaronpk: if you have a sec, can you help me with a php problem? I'm running quill locally to test my micropub endpoint, getting Message: Undefined property: Savant3::$authorizing
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kylewm File: /home/kmahan/projects/Quill/views/layout.php
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kylewm Line: 77
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kylewm but looking at the code, I don't understand how that's possible
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kylewm https://github.com/aaronpk/Quill/blob/master/views/layout.php#L77
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kylewm bengo: also you probably already know that micropub *does* allow you to use your own authorization server and token endpoint
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snarfed kylewm: i guess you could support it in fever dream too, you'd just fetch the homepage to discover their token endpoint instead of assuming the one you told them to use
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kylewm hmm, I don't think the tokens.indieauth.com protocol is meant to be a spec in that way
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kylewm like i don't think there's any reason token endpoints have to reply to validation requests
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snarfed huh? isn't that part critical?
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bengo It's all pontification until I get to implementing micro pub. Today I've been thinking about exactly how to change my 'post datastore' from github/filesystem to something that can be written to at runtime
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kylewm nah, like kylewm.com/token doesn't do it... it just produces a token and the micropub endpoint knows how to confirm it
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bengo Will probably use postgres
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bengo Also did a lot of reading today about https://docpad.org/. Anyone used it?
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snarfed kylewm: ah sure, for integrated mp/token servers
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kylewm Known (IndiePub) has its own token endpoint too
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snarfed but in this case, if they're using fever dream and want their own token endpoint, the mp and token parts wouldn't be integrated, so their token endpoint would need to behave more or less like tokens.indieauth.com
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bengo Any one ecosystem will definitely want to provide its own authorization server so it can be self-sufficient. But in an ideal federated world, they'd also accept federated tokens to avoid lock-in and proflieration of tokens
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snarfed kylewm: sorry, i should stop poking at this and let you capture it, punt on it for now, and just get the first pass up and running w/tokens.indieauth.com :P
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kylewm :D
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snarfed definitely glad you're building this!
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GWG I missed something. What is he building now?
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kylewm what is Fever Dream?
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Loqi Fever Dream is the codename of an in-development Micropub endpoint for hosted blogs like Tumblr, WordPress.com, and Blogger https://indiewebcamp.com/Fever_Dream
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GWG kylewm: Where do you come up with these names?
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kylewm lol I dunno, that one popped into my head and i wasn't able to think of anything else
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kylewm but I kinda like it... proxying indie posts to friendly blogging silos is little bit like a bad dream :)
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GWG I feel a need to compete
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GWG I should name my next project something creative
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kylewm GWG: we should start a list of unused project names on the wiki!
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Loqi yea!
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kylewm anyone around who knows Tumblr? is a "note" a text post with a title and no content or vice versa?
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snarfed i like the agriculture theme
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snarfed should have made time to rebrand a-u etc "granary" and used granary.io
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snarfed ah well
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snarfed (because silo)
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kylewm hehe
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GWG Old Mahan had a Farm?
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GWG I guess I need to use Cotton Gin or Thresher or something
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kylewm there's something to be said for a name that actually indicates what the product does
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kylewm IndieAuth, good. Flynn, bad.
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kylewm but I find myself drawn to the latter
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GWG My latest is called Indie WebActions
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GWG I took snarfed's advice and ripped it out of Post Kinds into its own thing
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GWG Maybe I do need more creative names.
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GWG When I think names, I think Douglas Adams, I guess
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GWG Perfectly Normal Plugin?
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GWG Infinite Improbability Field Generator?
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kylewm Total Perspective Vortex
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GWG kylewm: That would be a great name for a feed reader
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kylewm haha, yes!
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Loqi rofl
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kylewm !tell acegiak in Tumblr is a note a text post with a title and no content or vice versa?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG kylewm: How many posts do you make a day?
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kylewm maybe 1-10?
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GWG What is the distribution of notes vs bookmark/like/etc?
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kylewm these are just guesses... probably 60% likes 30% replies, 10% new notes
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kylewm bookmarks, checkins, reposts, etc. are more sporadic
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snarfed sounds like a job for http://indie-stats.com/
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GWG I'm just trying to figure out a goal to set. I want to post more
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GWG I'd settle for once a day
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GWG That's why I'm trying to make it easier.
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acegiak kylewm: text posts without titles are more common on tumblr
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Loqi acegiak: kylewm left you a message 32 minutes ago: in Tumblr is a note a text post with a title and no content or vice versa? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-12/line/1428889185211
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acegiak they can have some html content in them but that's usually only used for minor formatting
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acegiak the title field is usually unused
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GWG acegiak: About that request I made to you...I may have to tell you to disregard it
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acegiak lol ok
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GWG acegiak: I was wobbling back and forth and ended up making it its own project instead of part of Post Kinds.
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acegiak yeah, sounds like a good way of doing it
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GWG Under the bland name of https://github.com/dshanske/indie-webactions
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acegiak cool
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GWG I'm going to see if I can add in that code developed at IWC Brighton last year to add a website as an action handler and some other things
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kylewm acegiak++ thanks! also, do Link or Quote map to anything useful indieweb-wise?
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Loqi acegiak has 16 karma
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acegiak kylewm: links are kind of like sharing or reposting non-tumblr content? almost always they have a comment attached for context or discussion
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acegiak The quote format is nearly unused to the point where I often see posts where someone posts a quote as a text post
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acegiak the exception being blogs like http://outofcontextdnd.tumblr.com/
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acegiak kylewm: what are you working on?
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kylewm Micropub provider that proxies to WP.com, blogger, tumblr
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kylewm convincing people to put <link> tags in their pages is going to be a little tricky
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snarfed kylewm: why?
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kylewm it was hard to find is all
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snarfed ah
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kylewm I coudn't find it on the tumblr site, so i went to bridgy source code...
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snarfed heh yup i was about to suggest that :P
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kylewm and then i dunno, set up indieauth, now add these other random tags
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kylewm seems like a tough sell
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ben_thatmustbeme Hello
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GWG Hello, ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme what's up. . Doc?
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snarfed kylewm: if they want micropub, they're already pretty heavily kool aided
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snarfed :P
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snarfed i wouldn't worry too much
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GWG ben_thatmustbeme: It's rabbit season?
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bengo I made some improvements to npm://indieweb https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/pull/1
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bengo You can even try it out http://indieweb-example.herokuapp.com/
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@elliotdickison http://elliotdickison.com/test-webmentions/ (twitter.com/_/status/587471973640306689)
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bengo Now featuring HTTP-enforcement: https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/pull/2
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bengo *HTTPS
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kylewm acegiak: do you have posse-to-tumblr code up somewhere?
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acegiak kylewm: I'll update the repo give us a sec
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kylewm acegiak: no rush, i'm probably not going to get to it until tomorrow night
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acegiak kylewm: pretty messy but this is my posse solution: https://github.com/acegiak/quickposse
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kylewm hehe, idiosyncratic tab usage
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kylewm (I'm trying to figure out the right way to post photos)
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kylewm acegiak: thank you for posting!
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tantek oh my goodness - there was a last minute backlash about the friendfeed shutdown: https://twitter.com/cenevizliler/status/587000984779513856
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Loqi tantek: rhiaro left you a message 8 hours, 27 minutes ago: I wrote about my evolving understanding of the implicit vs explicit types debate: http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-12/line/1428872454632
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@cenevizliler @btaylor are you happy now? happy with your networkcide? (twitter.com/_/status/587000984779513856)
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tantek "networkcide"?!?
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acegiak "cide" prefix - killing but, like, extra bad
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acegiak /s/prefix/suffix/
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bengo @rhiaro: great post on http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types
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tantek and a Turkish resurrection of FriendFeed - apparently there was a big Turkish community on there: http://yeni-friendfeed.com/
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tantek "yeni" means "new" in Turkish
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tantek !tell rhiaro the examples of "that I probably don't need to create a post for." are all things that actually make sense as explicit posts with their own permalinks that you can update or delete!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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tantek !tell rhiaro " this presents another point for confusion: when do I like a post, and when do I like the fact you published it" <-- precisely why separate Activities vs. Objects is *bad* (confusing) for the user model, thus bad overall and to be avoided.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell her that when I see her next
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acegiak tantek: I really agree with the posting ui section though
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tantek acegiak: yes - I agree with that both conceptually, and in observation of modern posting /create UX
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tantek.com edited /FriendFeed (+395) "note screenshot of final day, and replacements" (view diff)
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bengo The way I see it is that the 'types' are useful for 'default' object creation wizards, even each objectType wizard is really just going to serialize everything to the same wire format (e.g. HTML+mf2) to send to an API (e.g. micro pub). This still affords for not being boxed into the 'tyranny of content-types' if you are willing to bring your own object creator (e.g. just writing HTML, or using something like Quill).
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bengo It's more of a helpful set of guard rails for users that are only willing to worry about graphical object/post creators
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bengo Similarly, even if the total set of 'posts' a service can store is not strictly 'typed', the objectTypes are useful on the other end too when it comes to rendering them. e.g. I can make better dedicated views for 'event', 'photo', 'group' than one big generic one. But similarly, it should still be a best practice for all reusable views to have a 'fallback' that ensures that everyone's posts can be shown off, at least by
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bengo .displayName or title.
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bengo I think the JSON-LD/AS '@type's and 'implicit typing' can live well together.
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bengo wrt views, about 9 months ago I tried making a sort of 'general purpose' activity serializer that worked this way. It new how to serialize certain objectTypes, but would always fall back to something generic like just looking for a .displayName https://github.com/gobengo/activity-element/blob/master/src/index.js#L24
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bengo *serializer to HTMLElements
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@bengo This is the most ES2015 thing I’ve written this year (Symbols, Classes, async/await, destructuring, tempates) https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb/blob/ecma/lib/indieweb-home.js (twitter.com/_/status/587523664259768320)
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bengo Uh oh. Is that on a global search for the 'indieweb' substring?
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cweiske yes. loqi has several twitter search strings it posts here
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bengo Cool that it matches on URL substrings too
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pfefferle good morning
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voxpelli good morning!
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petermolnar good morning, indieweb
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petermolnar I've came across an article where the part on Medium is pretty interesting; any ideas how indieweb could offer an alternative for he says? https://medium.com/backchannel/a-teenagers-view-on-social-media-1df945c09ac6#3166
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petermolnar s/for/for\ what/
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Loqi petermolnar meant to say: I've came across an article where the part on Medium is pretty interesting; any ideas how indieweb could offer an alternative for\ what he says? https://medium.com/backchannel/a-teenagers-view-on-social-media-1df945c09ac6#3166
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tommorris so, I've been working on this - https://gist.github.com/tommorris/2983b0f7dd825ddf93c7 - way to RESTfully provide parsed microformats/RDFa in Django.
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tommorris why bother with separate "views" for microformats, RDFa etc. when you can just parse the data out of the HTML? ;-)
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cweiske because parsing is heavy
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tommorris then plonk the result into a cache.
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cweiske putting it all into html moves the work to the clients, which are by definition more than 1
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cweiske but that discussion is moot since the consensus in this channel is that publishing should be easy, not consuming
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tommorris ah, but this isn't moving the work to the client
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cweiske oh, it does. compare consuming an atom feed vs. consuming a h-entry feed
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cweiske consuming atom is way easier, because you don't have to parse the microformats from html with all their fallbacks and alternate markups
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tommorris cweiske: but it wouldn't be tremendously difficult to transform the result of an h-entry feed into Atom XML and serving that up as middleware. :)
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tommorris no more code needed, just transformations of HTML
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /Micropub (-154) "/* HTTP Header */ replaced rel="micropub" issue details with link to github issue" (view diff)
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pfefferle !tell aaronpk have you recieved my WebMention on https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/04/02/1/ ??? Source: http://notizblog.org/2015/04/02/indieweb-die-daten-sind-wir/?replytocom=682055
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle !tell aaronpk oops, I forgot the link to your site! that should explain it!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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GWG Good morning, all.
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pfefferle good morning GWG
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GWG pfefferle: I see there have been some updates going on.
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pfefferle GWG yes, had some free minutes ;(
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pfefferle :)
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GWG pfefferle: I've started a new project to try to make it easier to make quick posts.
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pfefferle GWG I saw it
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pfefferle GWG still not sure why you need that and/or prefer that instead of using the new Press-This
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pfefferle ;)
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GWG The new Press This won't set taxonomies.
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GWG Also, too many choices.
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GWG I just want the thing to go in
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GWG pfefferle: Basically, I want to use the sharing intent in Android to create posts on my site with one-click if I can.
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pfefferle GWG and what about authentication?
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GWG pfefferle: I use WordPress authentication
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GWG So, your browser just needs to be logged into WordPress
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GWG pfefferle: In the end, if having a tool that works the way I need it to for my workflow makes me post more...isn't that a good thing?
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tantek yes
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GWG So far, more of my work has been creating a foundation. Post Kinds allowed the types I wanted to Post. Now I want to post them.
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GWG Besides, Press This doesn't post notes.
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pfefferle GWG and it is not extensible?
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GWG Not to that extent.
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GWG It can't achieve my goal of tying the pieces I built together. I proposed more extensibility but I am not their use case
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pfefferle GWG I am not sure, but I think it is also possible with the Press-This bookmarklet… I added some extra query strings for the oexchange plugin for example https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-oexchange
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pfefferle GWG and why are you parsing the media urls by hand instead of using the build in OEmbed feature?
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GWG You mean in the Post Kinds plugin?
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pfefferle no, the indie webaction plugin
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GWG I'm not. I borrowed that code from the Oress This code. I am not using it. I might be using part of it.
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GWG I intend to cut it down to just the basics.
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pfefferle GWG ok…
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GWG I intend to get to an initial stable version within a week.
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GWG Pfefferle, the code I included if you look was named fallback
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pfefferle GWG I had only a quick look ;)
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pfefferle GWG sorry!
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: drafting a response to your post
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@suryhern #KCA #VoteJKT48ID ONeillChristian: BACK ROADS KINGDOM "is THE HOBBIT meets JUSTIFIED!" #Fantasy #IARTG #Indieauth… https://twitter.com/ONeillChristian/status/587626790300033024/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/587627497417740288)
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro: https://ben.thatmustbe.me/article/2015/4/13/2/
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ben_thatmustbeme and just thought of a great way to confuse things. RSVPs can contain a comment, as could likes, what type are those?
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@jgarber You’ll notice I published that article on my own site first and re-published it elsewhere: @twitter, @facebook, and now @Medium. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/587637877636526080)
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@Indiewebhost Diskon Paket Hosting 25% http://www.indieweb.biz/?p=3834 (twitter.com/_/status/587638705776541696)
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi aaronpk: pfefferle left you a message 6 hours, 10 minutes ago: have you recieved my WebMention on https://aaronparecki.com/replies/2015/04/02/1/ ??? Source: http://notizblog.org/2015/04/02/indieweb-die-daten-sind-wir/?replytocom=682055 http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428917544891
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Loqi aaronpk: pfefferle left you a message 5 hours, 37 minutes ago: oops, I forgot the link to your site! that should explain it! http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428919537160
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ben_thatmustbeme mornin'
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk: had an interesting idea, what about MicroPub endpoint not only telling what mp-syndicate-to values, but just ANY values. basically query for "what additional options should i present?"
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aaronpk what kind of additional options?
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ben_thatmustbeme post-type would work for those that want it, encoding type, for those that want to draft as markdown or html instead of plain text
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ben_thatmustbeme hell ANY extension
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ben_thatmustbeme p3k-food-type if thats what your site supports
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aaronpk i know of a great way for a server to present a list of options to a user
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aaronpk it's extensible and supports many different types of values
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ben_thatmustbeme feels sarcasm coming
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aaronpk html forms ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmm, that would make things much simpler, its already rendered HTML, not sure security wise its a good idea
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aaronpk and if you marked up the form with microformats, other clients could parse it and create their own forms from it
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, that would be the better option
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ben_thatmustbeme worry of sloppy coder just inserting the html directly
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ben_thatmustbeme rather than parsing it
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aaronpk but i'm not sure this train of thought is useful
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ben_thatmustbeme taking it to the extreme you just include EVERY field you support, and there is really no need for the endpoint, i know
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aaronpk because so far all the micropub clients i've made are specialized interfaces, and couldn't really be generalized
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aaronpk what would be useful is for a micropub client like teacup being able to tell if a micropub endpoint is going to be able to accept the request it sends
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aaronpk I wouldn't want Teacup to adapt its interface based on that, but might be nice to be able to tell the user "it looks like your micropub endpoint won't accept this, here are some instructions for how to fix this"
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, if the mp endpoint listed ALL options it accepts, teacup would know that
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ben_thatmustbeme ... oh sorry your site doesn't support the minimum fields X, Y, and Z
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't mean you HAVE to show them all
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ben_thatmustbeme but for those full fledged endpoints, it would be nice
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ben_thatmustbeme hey gRegor`
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ben_thatmustbeme hey catsup
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aaronpk cause right now if someone logs in to teacup and tries to post with it, it'll just make an empty post or the endpoint will reject the post because there's no content
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ben_thatmustbeme you don't include content?
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ben_thatmustbeme as a fallback?
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aaronpk i don't think i do right now but i want to
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aaronpk but it would still be nice for teacup to be able to warn people
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ben_thatmustbeme i still go back to exposing ALL your supported fields would meant that teacup would know a person doesn't support p3k-food
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ben_thatmustbeme or whatever field you use
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aaronpk yeah that's fine
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aaronpk of course that's a slippery slope too
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@rhiaro Three very first websites up after day 1 of @Prewired #MakerWeek. So tomorrow I'll have the kids set up #indieauth? (twitter.com/_/status/587648179732148224)
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ben_thatmustbeme rhiaro++
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Loqi rhiaro has 55 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, in what way?
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aaronpk well, some fields are dependent on others, so a request may not be valid with any arbitrary field in that list
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aaronpk s/any/any single
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: well, some fields are dependent on others, so a request may not be valid with any single arbitrary field in that list
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aaronpk like right now my endpoint can't do anything with a request that contains *only* location, but location is a valid additional field for any other post
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ben_thatmustbeme true, which is why an mp-client cannot just show everything
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tantek presumably *only* location would be a checkin :)
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aaronpk tantek: presumably, but my endpoint doesn't support it right now!
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tantek then it could say that!
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aaronpk could say what?
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ben_thatmustbeme who's on first?
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tantek "checkins not supported yet."
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aaronpk "checkin" sounds like a post type ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, he's saying its not that checkins aren't supported yet, its that "JUST" location field isn't supported
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aaronpk what it actually needs to say is the "location" property by itself isn't supported yet
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ben_thatmustbeme but maybe location + content will work
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aaronpk so this is why i want to make sure to start with the description of the *user-visible* feature this query functionality would provide
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ben_thatmustbeme my original idea was to show every field supported so that you could display additional fields like post-type or content-encoding (for those that like markdown or html based drafting)
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ben_thatmustbeme which i think gets rid of the need to argue over post-type or not
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ben_thatmustbeme as its personal UI choice at that point
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aaronpk also i'm worried about putting too much burden on clients, by making them need to support markdown and html and plaintext editors
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ben_thatmustbeme they don't need to
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tantek agreed, they don't need to
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tantek this is where rel=source tells the client what type the source is in
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tantek and the client can say whether it supports it or not
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tantek in the UI to the user
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tantek rel=source type=text/markdown
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ben_thatmustbeme it just says that those options are there. I was thinking more of just a plain text field, but the person's server can then say , oh okay, this raw text can be processed as markdown
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tantek rel=source type=text/html
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tantek rel=source type=text/plain
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tantek server links to its source for a post, client decides if it supports the mimetype or not and alerts the user accordingly.
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tantek some clients may support only editing one type, others a few, perhaps some may decide to support all
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tantek let the clients evolve accordingly
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tantek editing mimetypes vs. different properties - lots of different things for clients to strive for / specialize in
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gRegor` Hi ben_thatmustbeme. Morning, indieweb.
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ben_thatmustbeme morning
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aaronpk tantek: unrelated, can you give me a better reason to not use a URI for rel=micropub? https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/1
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tantek simple reason - don't need it
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aaronpk right now my thinking is that since the HTML5 rel registry is on the microformats wiki, the HTTP link header should just follow it
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aaronpk even though the HTTP spec says rel values need to be URIs or registered with IANA
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tantek just keep repeating after me, the IETF registry is obsolete. It should just normatively reference the microformats existing-rel-values registry, as the HTMLWG decided.
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aaronpk but this is HTTP-land, not HTML
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tantek any spec that references the IETF registry has a bug and assume it means to reference the microformats existing-rel-values registry
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tantek if there are old rel values in the IETF registry which actually have real world use, add them to the microformats existing-rel-values registry
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aaronpk what about the IANA one?
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tantek IANA IETF - same difference
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tantek both obsolete, same reasons
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gRegor` What is IANA?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IANA" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=IANA&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428941954068
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aaronpk the IANA one was last updated in january http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations/link-relations.xhtml
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gRegor` What is IETF?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "IETF" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=IETF&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428941959042
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tantek as long as consuming code keeps shifting to using the microformats existing-rel-values registry, the others are just legacy
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gRegor` What is HTML5?
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Loqi HTML (HyperText Markup Language) is the markup language used to create web pages https://indiewebcamp.com/HTML5
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tantek and arguments from non-implementers (i.e. those that don't actually write code that consumes rel values) about which they prefer are irrelevant
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tantek and ignorable
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gRegor` What is rel-value registry?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rel-value registry" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rel-value+registry&summary=prompted+by+gRegor%60+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428942031971
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gRegor` is done
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tantek IANA is a source of legacy registries, some of which have been obsoleted, like the rel registry, by microformats.org: http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values
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loqi.me created /IANA (+193) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428941954068 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek IETF is an abbreviation for the Internet Engineering Task Force, a group that produces specs called RFCs, and holds meetings where people audibly "hum" to achieve consensus.
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loqi.me created /IETF (+200) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428941959042 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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aaronpk wat
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aaronpk humming?
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tantek rel-value registry is http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values per both the WHATWG HTML specification, and the W3C HTML5 specification.
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loqi.me created /rel-value_registry (+170) "prompted by gRegor` https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428942031971 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek is done
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ben_thatmustbeme they hum?? that doesn't seem really useful
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ben_thatmustbeme louder hummers get more control?
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tantek "The more you know..."
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: yes, it does seem odd, though I'm reporting secondhand, never having attended an IETF meeting myself.
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aaronpk there is an RFC for that https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7282
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tantek on humming?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek those with running code should be given megaphones so they can hum louder
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ben_thatmustbeme i was thinking of bringing a boombox with one track "HUM"
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess its the idea of being difficult to tell who votes which way but does provide general idea of who votes which way
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ben_thatmustbeme how many *
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ben_thatmustbeme public semi-secret vote
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aaronparecki.com edited /Micropub (-197) "please keep issues on github or [[Micropub-brainstorming]]" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme getting back to earlier discussion, aaronpk, its possible that a field may only work depending on VALUE of a field. b3n-drink may depend on b3n-food-type=drink. I don't think you can really test for everything without actually posting the content
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ben_thatmustbeme s/posting the content/sending the data/
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: getting back to earlier discussion, aaronpk, its possible that a field may only work depending on VALUE of a field. b3n-drink may depend on b3n-food-type=drink. I don't think you can really test for everything without actually sending the data
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aaronpk this is why i was worried about following this train of thought too far without actually looking back at the original goal of it
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aaronpk for example
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ben_thatmustbeme brings me back to just expose all fields that the server knows of, its up to the client to just say, oh, no b3n-food support, sorry it won't work
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aaronpk I want someone who logs in to Teacup to see a message saying "this post could look better on your site if you accept p3k-food properties"
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aaronpk so, start from the user-visible effect you want, rather than the plumbing of how to make it happen
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ben_thatmustbeme still exactly the same result in this case
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ben_thatmustbeme at least in my mind
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aaronpk what is your goal with it
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "your goal with it" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=your+goal+with+it&summary=prompted+by+aaronpk+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428943915956
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aaronpk oops
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@derhess nice hack meeting in #berlin for set-up your #owncloud on #RaspberryPi http://t.co/LwY8qxdzQt & http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2015/04/owncloud-meetup-to-test-devices-in-berin.html #indieweb #indiedev (twitter.com/_/status/587659584698986496)
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ben_thatmustbeme the client wants to know. "does site X support field Y"
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aaronpk robots don't matter
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aaronpk what do you want the user to see
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ben_thatmustbeme in your case or mine?
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tantek as soon as more than one person here starts posting an (implied) type of post, we should probably discuss and standardize the property(ies) involved
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aaronpk ben_thatmustbeme: yours
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tantek e.g. what is food
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ben_thatmustbeme i would like user to be presented with an option to select post-type if that is what they prefer
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Loqi Food is a post type that represents eating or drinking particular food or drink https://indiewebcamp.com/food
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tantek and does that have a "How to mark up" section
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aaronpk tantek: sounds like we need a micropub properties registry :)
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ben_thatmustbeme also, i would like users to be presented with an option to select content format, so if they prefer to type raw HTML in to the plain text form (so they can actually link thigs) they can still use my mp-client
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ben_thatmustbeme one possible solution, figure out a mp-content-format and generate some set of values for it (or create another request like syndicate-to)
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ben_thatmustbeme repeat for mp-post-type
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ben_thatmustbeme or merge all 3 (mp-post-type, mp-content-format, mp-syndicate-to) in to one request, asking for supported values
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ben_thatmustbeme add in p3k-food-type. logical extension, just include them all
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tantek aaronpk - except they're not micropub-specific
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tantek that's the point
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ben_thatmustbeme all is one possible solution, there are certainly others
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tantek just as ben_thatmustbeme ran into trouble with AREA tag encoding into micropub
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tantek micropub is secondary to getting simple markup figured out for how you want to publish / present your post on your permalink in the first place
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aaronpk tantek: yeah i guess most are the properties of an h-entry, and we have yet to encounter a case where that isn't true
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ben_thatmustbeme holds off on lunch because of good conversation
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tantek micropub is a means to that ends
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tantek not vice versa
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tantek it must always start with the UX of what does the post look like, according to what does the publishers want the post to look like
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tantek then we figure out the right markup for that
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tantek then we figure out the right microformats to layer into that
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tantek and only then do we figure out how to set those properties via micropub
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tantek and if at any step we run into a problem (e.g. AREA tag with /area-tagging ) then we back-up and see if we can do it differently.
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tantek starting with micropub is tail-wagging design, AKA plumbing-centric / architecture-centric
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tantek let's leave the plumbing-centric design to folks advocating for "platforms" first (e.g. LDP), and selfdogfooding later
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ben_thatmustbeme btw tantek, did you see amy's post about post-type
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tantek I did and left her a bunch of !tells yesterday in IRC
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tantek saw your follow-up too
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ben_thatmustbeme thats where i hit on this idea of taking out explicit post-type from my clients in favor of a less obtrusive field
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ben_thatmustbeme would work exactly the same on my end, but improve UI of the mp-client
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bret tantek: do you auto link your articles?
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bret or just notes
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tantek just notes
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tantek or rather it goes back to authoring "UI"
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tantek my articles I author in HTML
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tantek my notes I author in plain text
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tantek (except for escaping & etc. which I do in both because - limitation of my storage setup ;) )
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bret doh.. cool
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bret its fun to change syntax hi lighting on cassis.js... two different views on the same file
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bret highlighting*
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bengo @ben_thatmustbeme I like your idea of micro pub endpoints being able to advertise extended capabilities. It reminds me of Hydra, an effort to standardize how a web api can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns http://www.hydra-cg.com/spec/latest/core/#using-hydra
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@elfpavlik "Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStreams #LinkedData] (twitter.com/_/status/587684624760987651)
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kylewm bengo: fyi you can leave off the @ when mentioning people, i think it prevents them from being highlighted in some clients
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tantek cannot tell if bengo is serious or trolling re: "effort to standardize how a web api can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns"
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bengo Yeah oops. I got scolded for that last week and keep forgetting.
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kylewm oh sorry didn't realize :)
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bengo tantek__ I'm not trolling. It is indeed a real effort...
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bengo I'm intentionally omitting whether I think it will work :)
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tantek what is an effort to standardize how a web API can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns?
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bengo What is Hydra?
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tantek er, I mean
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Hydra" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hydra&summary=prompted+by+bengo+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428950067845
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bengo Hydra is a W3C Community Group that aims to standardize how a web API can advertise it's operations and what types of objects it expects/returns
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loqi.me created /Hydra (+171) "prompted by bengo https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428950067845 and dfn added by bengo" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek what is effort to standardize how a web API can advertise its operations and what types of objects it expects/returns?
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tantek hmm - perhaps Loqi has an upperbound on page names
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Loqi is done
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tantek alright I'll add it as a see also
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bengo.is edited /Hydra (+110) (view diff)
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KevinMarks_ !tell cweiske you think parsing Atom is easy? Hahaha
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /Hydra (+36) "rm apostrophe, see also WS-Deathstar" (view diff)
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@SocialWebWG RT @elfpavlik: "Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStrea… (twitter.com/_/status/587685860407054336)
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tantek bengo are you familiar with WSDL?
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snarfed tantek: ben_thatmustbeme: or COM/CORBA, or content/cipher negotiation, or… :P
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tantek.com edited /Hydra (+415) "Examples - no real world, Criticism WSDL again" (view diff)
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tantek snarfed - how 1990s of you :P
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snarfed history++
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tantek wasted too many years on SOM/DSOM/CORBA/DCOM :(
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Loqi history has 2 karma
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tantek history++
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Loqi history has 3 karma
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KevinMarks_ post types is amking me think fo the hierarchy vs prototype theory issue again
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tantek KevinMarks: what post types do you post on your own site?
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KevinMarks_ noterlive transcripts mainly, and essay-like posts
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KevinMarks_ notes I tend to tweet
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KevinMarks_ known.kevinmarks.com has some notes, checkins, photos, events and RSVPs
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ben_thatmustbeme ahh, excellent, fixed that issue. now giving the wrong post type url to a post doesn't break things
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@liminar IndieWebCamp https://indiewebcamp.com/ via @delicious (twitter.com/_/status/587688459583692800)
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ben_thatmustbeme or rather try to render it wrong, or provide other feedback
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ben_thatmustbeme https://ben.thatmustbe.me/fakename/2015/4/13/2/ always redirected correctly
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ben_thatmustbeme but now https://ben.thatmustbe.me/listen/2015/4/13/2/ will redirect correctly too
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KevinMarks_ mind you I do have kevinmarks.com/tweets on my site, but I need to redownload them
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ben_thatmustbeme any future change to a post type will not matter at all now, redirects will take care of themselves
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: do you not set <title> on purpose?
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ben_thatmustbeme KevinMarks... post type by subdomain :)
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: correct
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: hehe, allow me to rephrase. why don't you set <title>?
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: didn't feel it needed one. Don't usually set a title unless it is not in reply to something.
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll also set a title on photos sometimes
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ben_thatmustbeme but not always
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tantek on a photo it's called a caption ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme no, there is a caption too
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ben_thatmustbeme just to confuzzle things
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kylewm ben_thatmustbeme: it looks kind of dorky in a browser tab to have your face and the title "https:...13/2/"
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ben_thatmustbeme but its another problem i have with the 'if there is a title then its an article'
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kylewm even just the same title as your home page would be better, imho
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: wat - why do you have both a "title" and a "caption" on your photos?
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tantek E.g. IG just has caption (which happens to be "first comment if it is by the author of the photo")
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ben_thatmustbeme kylewm: fair point. fixed
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, i'm not sure i ever have, but i can have a title on a post of type photo with content in it
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ben_thatmustbeme basically becomes short title for the photo, and description of the photo
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tantek ben_thatmustbeme: it's not a matter of "can have" but rather, have you ever wanted (in a post you actually publish)
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tantek formats/protocols often have numerous edge case / weird possibilities of combinations - just because those combinations exist doesn't mean they are useful or desired. they can just be side-effects of other desired features (and combinations thereof)
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bengo tantek Yes I'm familiar with WDSL as well as http://www.simple-is-better.org/json-rpc/jsonrpc20-schema-service-descriptor.html
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, looks like i never actually set a title for a photo... thought i had
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tantek lol JSDL
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ben_thatmustbeme i could certainly see me wanting to though
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ben_thatmustbeme as a short description vs commentary on a photo
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tantek bengo - looks like arbitrary "service description" is a good honeypot for architecture astronauts
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tantek we need Loqi to make such Amazon-like recommendations
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tantek Since you like architecture astronomy, you might also like extensible service discovery.
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bengo What is architecture astronomy?
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Loqi architecture astronomy is the practice of analyzing problems, seeing patterns, and then generalizing to higher and higher level abstractions on top of those patterns to the point where the abstractions become so general, so vague, so detached from the original problems being analyzed, that they don't mean anything at all https://indiewebcamp.com/architecture_astronomy
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bengo Why is microformats not architecture astronomy but AS2 is?
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bengo errrr 'JSDL'?
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bengo What's a fair metric to use to divide the space?
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cweiske <hr/>
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bengo haha
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Loqi cweiske: KevinMarks_ left you a message 32 minutes ago: you think parsing Atom is easy? Hahaha http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428950130697
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ben_thatmustbeme cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 25 karma
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tantek bengo - because microformats are all based on *first* gathering examples of real world problems, then devising a solution that minimally solves them.
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tantek AS2 tried to do that, but has very poor documentation on a defunct wiki, and unsearchable mailing lists
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tantek all the *SDLs failed to do that
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tantek at all
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bengo I see.
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tantek bengo the fact that you would ask "Why is microformats not architecture astronomy" shows you either do not understand how microformats are created (start with microformats.org/wiki/process ) or did not read the architecture astronomy description / blog post, or both.
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tantek they are about as opposite as possible
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tantek btw this is also why we will be trimming AS2 drastically
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tantek or replacing it with a simpler proposal
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KevinMarks I heard you liked architecture astronomy so I put some hierarchy in your hierarchies
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tantek.com edited /Hydra (+347) "disambiguate mythological hydra, how it relates to hydracg" (view diff)
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cweiske KevinMarks, parsing atom is way easier than parsing microformats
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bengo Hmm. I guess in my area of industry I've just seen a lot more adoption of JSON+AS than microformats+arbitrary-HTML, because our customers don't actually want the latter.
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bengo *seem to want
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cweiske and I talk about atom, not about rss 0.9, 0.91, 1.0 and 2.0
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tantek.com edited /Hydra (+3) "*are" (view diff)
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bengo They ask "do you have a JSON API?"
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tantek bengo - and we give them canonical JSON
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tantek bengo - you're welcome to document real world examples of JSON+AS on the /ActivityStreams page
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tantek since you've seen "a lot more adoption"
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bengo kk
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tantek presumably you can cite URLs to streams / permalinks
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bengo To be clear, I don't mean it has 'a lot more adoption' in general. That would be silly and probably wrong.
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tantek lacking those, it doesn't count as adoption, it counts as ephemeral API/protocol froth
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tantek like any other snowflake
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gRegor` I have a read-only JSON API. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fgregorlove.com%2Fnotes%2F
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tantek gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 48 karma
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tantek what is a snowflake?
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Loqi snowflake in the context of the indieweb, is typically used to refer in a derogatory way to "snowflake APIs", APIs that are (often silo) website or service provider-specific (unique like snowflakes) rather than an open standard https://indiewebcamp.com/snowflake
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KevinMarks Parsing valid atom is easy,yes. Guess what that buys you
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ben_thatmustbeme .
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ben_thatmustbeme s/.//
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: 
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bengo Interesting. I guess I feel a little blocked over the last few years on making anything other than a Snowflake API for our 'silo-as-a-service' product. Thus I have a lot of hope for the Social API, and don't know what open standard (of HTTP protocol) I could use that is already a sufficiently 'open standard'
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bengo https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Proposed_user_stories
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bengo Other than probably Atom
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aaronpk I would actually argue the opposite, since I haven't seen a generic atom parser that returns a native data structure, whereas microformats parsers return native data structures so consumers don't even have to think about the parsing step
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aaronpk seems like every project that wants to parse atom has to do the actual xml parsing itself
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bengo Sorry I shouldn't have said Atom
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bengo I guess the key here is that micro formats are great for object serialization
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bengo I'm not arguing that at all
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KevinMarks Universal Feed Parser returns native data structures
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bengo But I don't think there is a standard protocol for the HTTP requests to discover/query those objects
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aaronpk yeah but my point is every parser that works on the vocab level has to also parse the serialization
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bengo Given a big database of posts and stuff
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KevinMarks It's an Atom (et al) to JSON transducer
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bengo How can I write a client for it to only get bengo's
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bengo tagged with 'indieweb', sorted by most recent?
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bengo I don't care if I then get it as JSON or mf2
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bengo But the application-level protocol is missing from the community (as far as my limited research can find)
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aaronpk bengo: probably because there hasn't been a need demonstrated for it yet
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aaronpk for example I can already subscribe to your notes that are tagged "indieweb" in monocle, because monocle is doing the filtering for me
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snarfed aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 760 karma
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bengo I'm sick of hearing that, lol. The product I've been building for almost 5 years is a demonstrated need, as is the millions of dollars our customers pay us for it.
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bengo I'd love to not be 'a snowflake'
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bengo But you can't attack on both sides
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bengo Label things derogatorily as snowflake APIs while also saying the use case isn't real enough to standardize
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aaronpk note that I did say "yet"
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bengo It's cool. I think it's just not really an indieweb problem per se
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snarfed bengo: if you really want a open/standard API for that kind of functionality, the opensocial api is one
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GWG Aaronpk, reading back in the log. If more people adopt food logging, should it stay as p3k?
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snarfed http://opensocial-resources.googlecode.com/svn/spec/2.0.1/Social-API-Server.xml#ActivityStreams-Service
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snarfed bengo: a-u uses it. https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#using
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bengo snarfed OpenSocial IS #social now
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bengo they merged
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bengo to make https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Proposed_user_stories
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snarfed ok
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bengo (and AS2)
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KevinMarks__ Well, activity Streams did have implementations in opensocial, but most of them died
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aaronpk GWG: no, the p3k prefix is there because it's currently experimental
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snarfed bengo: ok. so is there a new API standard that subsumes the old opensocial one!
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snarfed er, ?
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aaronpk bengo: it's quite possible that it may not be an indieweb problem, or it may be an indieweb problem that has yet to be surfaced
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bengo There are plenty of non-opensocial impls of AS. e.g. Adobe AEM https://docs.adobe.com/docs/en/cq/5-6-1/javadoc/com/adobe/granite/activitystreams/package-summary.html
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aaronpk just like we didn't start writing the micropub spec in 2010 at the first indiewebcamp
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KevinMarks__ And gnip and echo
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bengo snarfed I think that's what the 'Social API' project of w3c/social is all about
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bengo KevinMarks__ exactly! I work with both of them
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snarfed bengo: got it
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snarfed sounds like you're ahead of me then. so…you're advocating for more support for that project? or...?
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bengo snarfed I guess I just like chatting about it here because the actual w3c/social is so crickets
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snarfed lol
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aaronpk but things like webmention, indieauth, micropub, fragmention, etc, all arose incrementally as the need became apparent
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snarfed bengo: then you're probably not surprised that we agree in spirit but not always on the details :P
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bengo snarfed I suppose that's what I'm advocating for. But really I'm just thinking out loud. As I progress on bengo.is and https://github.com/gobengo/indieweb, I'm hoping to try to merge some of the two project-sets
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snarfed hoo boy, that way lie dragons
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aaronpk bengo: so i'm not saying it's out of scope, just that it hasn't come up yet
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bengo snarfed That's fine. I guess it's really a matter of whether the consensus here is that it's useless to work with w3c/social. If you don't think it's useless, I recommend avoiding the derogatory terms and name calling.
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bengo I'm trying to be 'on the same team'
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snarfed bengo++ for trying to cooperate
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Loqi bengo has 8 karma
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bengo thx <3 :)
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bengo snarfed++ for comopassion
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Loqi snarfed has 100 karma
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snarfed i feel the same way, hence my work on https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial and friends
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ben_thatmustbeme bengo, what product do you work on?
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ben_thatmustbeme tries to catch up
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bengo http://docs.livefyre.com/
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bengo e.g. this is a snowflake, but I wish it weren't http://docs.livefyre.com/developers/api-reference/
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snarfed livefyre! oh wow ok. you all do solid work
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snarfed i need to capture it in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#related-work
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bengo This talks about where we've implemented AS2-ish (in an alpha project... before they made JSON-LD an official part of it, ugh) This talks about)
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bengo http://bengo.is/notes/20150411-reply.html
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snarfed a la gnip (RIP), datasift, etc
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bengo data sift got cut off from Twitter last friday!
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snarfed whoa
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bengo http://techcrunch.com/2015/04/11/twitter-cuts-off-datasift-to-step-up-its-own-b2b-big-data-analytics-business/
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ben_thatmustbeme i should say, what functionality is it that you want? content creation/management or interoperation between products
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snarfed tough space
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmustbeme the so called social api or federation api?
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bengo That's a good question. Both?
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bengo The main use case that drove me here is making social views (widgets, apps, whatever) http://answers.livefyre.com/product/app-gallery/
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bengo If our API weren't a snowflake, then we could make them more generic that Livefyre-specific
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bengo or more importantly, we could reasonably evangelize that all the JS-hackers and webdevs could be making great content visualizations like http://s.codepen.io/gobengo/debug/dFwDL?
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bengo But I wouldn't have to be locking them in to our snowflake. They could implement against SocialAPI
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bengo + a standard serialization like AS2 or HTML+mf2 or HTML+RDFa
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bengo e.g. I will probably start working with some friends on this to try to make a standard 'chat widget' sort of thing for this AS API http://docs.activitystreamschat.apiary.io/#reference
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bengo Where the idea is there are some good modules in there to make it work with any AS API
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kylewm bengo: I'm confused about your question whether "it's useless to work with w3c/social". you know that many here are involved in that WG right?
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bengo Yeah. But also there seems to be a sentiment that 'they're all doing it that wrong'
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bengo or that things like JSON-LD or RDF are excuses for navel-gazing, and have no place in a joint standard
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snarfed bengo: honestly, i suspect the main problem is the same one that (arguably) killed opensocial
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snarfed we can work together to design all the standard data models and apis we want...
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snarfed …but if the major silos don't support them, or at least allow others to bridge support for them, they won't matter
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed, thats definitely a concern, but if you build up from smaller communities i believe thats possible
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snarfed ie your social views would be very compelling if they supported twitter, fb, etc; less so if they only support identica and gnu social :P
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ben_thatmustbeme so, bengo, your issue with MF2 is that is lacks API to be able to query specific sets like "all posts of type X from site Y, sorted by Z" ?
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ben_thatmustbeme at least for the moment anyway
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ben_thatmustbeme is at work and so has not fully comprehended everything going by so quickly
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cweiske kylewm, we're at 2 seconds now: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2015-04-13%20woodwind%202%20seconds.png
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bengo ben_thatmustbeme I have no substantive issues with mf2. Just a use case at a different level yknow?
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bengo snarfed I've got open source views for livefyre, twitter, fb, etc. https://github.com/Livefyre/streamhub-sdk/tree/master/src/content/views
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cweiske kylewm, it takes 1 second for you to respond to my ping request. http://p.cweiske.de/192
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bengo snarfed but they're predicated on a snowflake data model. If this were where it were at the time I started, I woulda used it http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-activitystreams-vocabulary-20150129/#object-types
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cweiske I'm fine with the speed now
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bengo They don't support identical or gnu social :P
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bengo I've even got a fork that uses AS2-ish as its input data, then maps to the arbitrary stuff to reuse the views. http://roaring-river.herokuapp.com/#/personalized (you have to log in and follow some topics for awhile to see https://cloudup.com/c5aM8QYQ6NN)
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snarfed bengo: nice!
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snarfed funny, yeah, that's more or less my high level goal with https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial too
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bengo Yeah that's an awesome project!
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snarfed thanks!
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snarfed even implements the old opensocial API for querying those silos. looking fwd to porting that to whatever new API you all come up with
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bengo Tests for converting activity-mocks (https://github.com/gobengo/activity-mocks) to streamhub-sdk/content models: https://github.com/gobengo/livefyre-collection-feed/blob/master/test/spec/main.js
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bengo snarfed: awesome
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bengo I'm a little blocked on continuing in-work dev on AS2 stuff while we wait for our first customer to finish integrating, so I'm eager to continue building JS utility libs for my indieweb use cases
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bengo I'll read more of activitystreams-unofficial this week
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ben_thatmustbeme bengo: thats what i meant, not with mf2 itself but rather i'm trying to figure out the minimum we would need to add to support your use case
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bengo Is there an mf2 parser that spits out AS2 JSON?
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bengo Or is that what snarfed's project includes?
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snarfed bengo: yeah a-u does that
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ben_thatmustbeme beb
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snarfed it's poorly-named now, but oh well
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bengo I think that helps. It would be great to have standard enough test cases that one (me) could write a JavaScript implementation of the transformations
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snarfed totally! here's a subset of my test cases: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/tree/master/testdata
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bengo Other than that, I think the 'query a social object store' use case is kind of covered by what w3c/social is trying to do with Social API. Unless there are common patterns for that in indieweb? I haven't really seen it so far.
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bengo Something like this (non-normative link share) https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
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bengo Unfortunately (?) that one is all like 'use SPARQL'
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snarfed bengo: we don't have many programmatic indieweb use cases for that, mostly just human use cases
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bengo Coolio
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bengo Then I'll just plan to propose something when I get my indieweb far enough
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snarfed we do very simple ones with http fetch + parse mf2, e.g. "most recent posts"
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bengo snarfed: Where? in a-u?
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aaronpk you can kind of query my site for different kinds of things, http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/sleep vs http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/bikeride
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snarfed bengo: no, just a general indieweb pattern
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bengo Which could be like this week or next. I now have the human use case down (http://bengo.is/notes/). Now I kind of want to offer a json Content-Type for http://bengo.is/notes/
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tantek catches up on logs and senses some frustration.
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bengo tantek: That was me. I'm no longer frustrated just thinking out loud.
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tantek thinkingoutloud++
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Loqi thinkingoutloud has 1 karma
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tantek bengo, to be blunt, "snowflake APIs" are as ephemeral as snowflakes themselves (except perhaps in Boston).
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tantek e.g. if you check archive.org, how many snowflake APIs will you find archived? Answer: 0.
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bengo That's not lost on me. see http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13#t1428953218374
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tantek whereas you'll find plenty of examples of presentation, markup, even microformats archived.
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tantek and of course, content
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tantek (most importantly, content)
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tantek that being said, an active API is at least *some* degree of a real world example, and thus is worthy of documentation and consideration as prior art towards developing a standard
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tantek whether or not the API is a snowflake or based on a (defacto) standard
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tantek hmm - what is DataSift?
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bengo I just wished my customers used mf2 or something similar. In practice they all just use og or whatever twitter just made everyone do to have 'cards' for their links.
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tantek bengo - indeed, there's a lot of metacrap prior art
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tantek let's try that again. what is DataSift?
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bengo The two customers I just checked for mf2 (.h-entry) were http://www.engadget.com/2015/04/13/micle-ai-mask-proud-of-blood-motorcycle-desktop/ http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/middleeast/syria-yarmouk-isis-shubert/index.html
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tantek bengo - did you check for .hentry,.h-entry ? (to include the backcompat syntax)
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bengo Just tried, no dice :(
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tantek the incentive fo OG is very clear and immediate. add OG, and get (improved) /link-preview in Facebook
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tantek the incentive for /Twitter_Cards is less clear and less immediate. add Twitter Cards metacrap, and then apply for Twitter whitelisting of your domain, and then wait some # of days, and then hopefully they start showing up.
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tantek bengo, however, your point that "In practice they all just use og or whatever twitter just made everyone do" is a *very* important data point because it provides a concrete measure of "sufficient incentive"
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tantek we don't have to be better than all of them, just better than the worst of them that are widely adopted
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tantek thus if we provide more immediate benefit than Twitter Cards, that will be sufficient for people to add the markup
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bengo That's the thing, though. Twitter et al probably don't care about whether personal sites use markup they can read. Their customers are brands and advertisers who want cooler looking tweets flowing by their audience.
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tantek and we don't care about brands and advertisers since we rarely link/reply to them (and thus have no need to parse them, e.g. into a /reply-context )
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bengo I agree.
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tantek this is a key point for the indieweb - we must grow an ecosystem that is self-sustaining and growing WITHOUT depending on brands, advertisers, search engines, or any other big companies
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bengo The thought exercise for me is: What system could exist out there that would provide 'sufficient incentive' for a great blog like joystiq or big publisher like CNN to implement mf2-or-similar markup?
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KevinMarks_ I think that principles like POSSE apply to brands too though
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tantek as soon as you start catering to any of those, you start depending on them, you make yourself vulnerable to their whims, you end up with them deciding screw it we'll do our own proprietary oligopoly thing (schema) or proprietary metacrap
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bengo @KevinMarks_ They do!
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tantek KevinMarks: of course they do, but we don't have to do any extra work for brands
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tantek let brands/enterprise be trailing adopers as they usually
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tantek are
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tantek bengo: -@
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tantek piles on the remind bengo that no @ needed in IRC references to nicknames unless you mean to refer to someone on Twitter.
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tantek notices there is actually an https://twitter.com/KevinMarks_
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KevinMarks_ what happened to hnews? that was used by publishers for a while
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tantek KevinMarks, I think you mean BigMedia publishers, and like any other BigCo, they can't be depended on
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tantek some of them got strongarmed by schema in the early days of schema
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tantek (c.f. private schema workshop hosted by MS in MV, but essentially dominated by Google)
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tantek I think it was 2011
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bengo Hmm. Okay well what about a non-BigMedia publisher like Alex Williams of http://thenewstack.io/spinning-up-a-hadoop-cluster-with-apache-ambari-and-brooklyn/
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tantek bengo - what you found hnews?!?
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bengo I was hanging with him two nights last week. He knows about #indieweb. Why should he add mf2 or similar?
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bengo Nah I don't know hnews
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tantek bengo - each page on the wiki has a why section
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bengo kk
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tantek or if it doesn't, it needs one
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tantek e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/bookmark#Why ;)
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bengo http://indiewebcamp.com/Microformats needs one
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@thierrymarianne RT @elfpavlik: "Implicit vs explicit object types" by @rhiaro http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types see: [#hEntry #Activity] cc: [#IndieWeb #ActivityStrea… (twitter.com/_/status/587710467772174336)
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tantek bengo - yeah that first section should be redone as why
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tantek bengo - check individual microformats
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tantek e.g. https://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry#Why
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bengo cool thx
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tantek I'll start adding an index to /microformats accordingly
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tommorris the indieweb community interested in mf2 issues are welcome to comment on http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-mime-type
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tommorris spots hNews being mentioned
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tantek tommorris: any live hNews examples left?
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tommorris not sure
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tommorris here's one: http://qctimes.com/news/local/government-and-politics/elections/article_7bad27da-7425-11df-8955-001cc4c03286.html
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tantek.com created /DataSift (+267) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /DataSift (+3) "'''" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /microformats (+490) "provide some links to Why and summary of IndieWeb use of publishing and consuming" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /h-card (+38) "add Why and How simple sections around existing text" (view diff)
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bengo What is hnews?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hnews" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=hnews&summary=prompted+by+bengo+https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13%2Fline%2F1428956920640
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tantek hNews is http://microformats.org/wiki/hnews
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loqi.me created /hNews (+70) "prompted by bengo https://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2015-04-13/line/1428956920640 and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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Loqi ok
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tantek tommorris: I wonder what hnews-specific properties that example uses
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tantek hmm: <span class="source-org vcard">
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tantek ugh: <span class="muted" rel="item-license" ...
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tantek and that's it
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KevinMarks_ hnews was mostly a way to get people to use hatom (now h-entry) iirc
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KevinMarks_ source-org and dateline being the additions, right?
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bengo Do folks use h-entry classes for styling, or is that discouraged?
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bengo *mf2 not just h-entry
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aaronpk I explicitly don't
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aaronpk I always add other classes for styling, so that if I need to I can move the mf2 classes around without affecting the look
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Loqi [bridgy] Laura Gluhanich RSVPed no to https://indiewebcamp.com/events/2015-04-22-homebrew-website-club (https://www.facebook.com/807045706055031#10104803441676193)
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bengo Yay awesome
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk tho since I didn't ever add styles to mf2 classes, I can't actually say from experience that it is a bad idea
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bengo My intuition would agree with yours. Unless you're scoping it under another selector that you 'own' or can reason about the subtree of
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KevinMarks_ I style mf2 classes
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bengo On your own site? Or in code you expect others to run on theirs too?
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KevinMarks_ on my own site(s)
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bengo Ah then it's fine. I come from a widget-writing background where one has to be ridiculously defensive
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bengo about global anything
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KevinMarks_ right
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KevinMarks_ well, you could style them within a scope
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bengo Yeah. I've done some ridiculous things in the compile step of our bundle to make that happen.
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bengo e.g. automatically prefix all css rules with attribute selectors for THIS app at THIS version
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bengo So if you put two different versions on the same page...
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bengo ugh
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bengo `[data-lf-package~="streamhub-wall#3.4.0"] .streamhub-wall-component>menu{margin:0;padding:0;text-align:right}')` from http://cdn.livefyre.com/libs/streamhub-wall/v3.4.0/streamhub-wall.min.js
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KevinMarks_ I style h-entry at http://svgur.com/ for example
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KevinMarks_ that is a bit scary, bengo
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ben_thatmustbeme lol what? http://svgur.com/s/S
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KevinMarks_ heh
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kylewm I love that there's a couple of korean words in there
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KevinMarks_ made with this http://www.jasondavies.com/wordcloud/#https%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2015-04-13
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kylewm also "10px" from the css :)
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bengo KevinMarks_ I agree. Were I to solve this from scratch without legacy integration concerns, every widget would be in an iframe so get a new/unadulterated CSS scope.
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bengo WebComponents/CustomElements helps... but if you need to support IE9, not sufficient
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KevinMarks_ that was how we did gadgets with OpenSocial
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tantek KevinMarks there were other properties added in hNews (see the spec) - but only those two additions were in the example that tommorris provided.
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tantek bengo re: use mf2 classes for styling, or is that discouraged?
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tantek I used mf(2) classes for styling for a long time, and it works reasonably well if for sites that you build and launch and that don't evolve much.
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tantek However, based on my personal experience where I keep rewriting how I want my posts displayed, presented, marked up semantically based on realtime selfdogfood experimenting with indieweb things, I have found it *better* to separate them and use different classes for styling
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tantek though I still use some mf classes for styling on my own site, I've been transitioning away from that
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tantek however what I did find is that using mf classes for *storage* does work well - it maps directly to sending the same data to parsers
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tantek but these conclusions took years of personal experience and experimenting
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tantek (more reasons to value selfdogfooding of any tech, especially longterm selfdogfooding, and question any tech that is *not* selfdogfooded, especially by the creators of it)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.gravitydrift.com/bookmarks/archives/3915 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.gravitydrift.com/2015/04/adactio-journal-forgetting-again/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (pingback)
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tantek That adactio article https://adactio.com/journal/8710 - most of the comments are RTs - of a comment - which would work better being collapsed with perhaps a facepile
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tantek though I don't know if we've ever ran into or talked about that before!
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tantek de-duping reposts of a comment with a facepile on that comment!
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kylewm it'd be interesting to see how bridgy publishes them
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kylewm here's an example http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fbrid-gy.appspot.com%2Frepost%2Ftwitter%2Fjgarber%2F587245857034133504%2F587680705938907136
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tantek kylewm - right - to see if there's some way to easily de-dup them
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tantek but consider that reposts of comments could be 100% indieweb too
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tantek even if existing cases are only Twitter (that we know of()
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kylewm interesting that bridgy interpreted @jgarber's tweet as the POSSE copy of the adactio.com original
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kylewm and so published RTs of the tweet as if they were RTs of the article itself
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tantek "interpreted @jgarber's tweet as the POSSE copy" <-- add that to the existing issue about Bridgy's aggressive POSSE copy detection
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@jkphl @webrocker Unbedingt! Bin schon ab Freitag Abend in DUS, das @IndieWebCampGER mitnehmen natürlich! :) #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/587743111901773825)
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kylewm tantek: noted https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/51#issuecomment-92519001
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snarfed kylewm: tantek: thanks! yup, definitely a faq. also https://indiewebcamp.com/original-post-discovery#POSSE_Post_Discovery
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tantek cool. I figure the more data we can gather on this, the better a chance of coming up with an incrementally better data-driven solution.
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snarfed we do demote to u-mention in a number of cases. one thing we could do for this case is to detect that the domain isn't (one of) the tweet author's domain(s), and have that demote too
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snarfed it's funny, we want bridgy to be both more aggressive and less aggressive than it is now, depending on the case
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kylewm.com created /React (+169) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>React</dfn>''' is a [[JavaScript]] library for rendering UIs that can run on the client, server, or in native iOS apps. http://facebook.github.io/react/"" (view diff)
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kylewm Kevin's issues were more like, he would link to a post of his from 2006, and Bridgy thought he was POSSEing right?
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snarfed kylewm: yup. i think there still isn't consensus on what to do then
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tantek that's a more challenging case
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snarfed backfeed his tweet as a mention, don't backfeed its replies? backfeed both his tweet and its replies as replies? something else?
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tantek good point snarfed, both in detection and actino
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tantek s/actino/action
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Loqi tantek meant to say: good point snarfed, both in detection and action
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loqi.me created /actino (+177) "prompted by tantek and dfn added by tantek" (view diff)
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snarfed wat
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snarfed oh. nm :P
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@bookprescom Cuckuu Turns Alarms into Social Experiences on Mobile >> http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/?p=618332&utm_content=bufferff49a&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer #SocialMedia Tip from Brandy Shaul. #SelfPublish #IndieAuth… (twitter.com/_/status/587752228284403714)
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bengo snarfed that question about what to back feed reminds me of getting lost in trying to grok the salmon protocol back in 2011 http://www.salmon-protocol.org/home
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snarfed bengo: ah salmon. me too! https://github.com/snarfed/salmon-unofficial
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bengo haha awesome
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Loqi haha
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bengo What's your take on the relationship between web mentions and salmon? Are they alternatives?
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snarfed there's a whole -unofficial family
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snarfed yeah, webmention + mf2 is kind of an alternative to/superset of salmon
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snarfed the key difference is probably that wm+mf2 has (some) current users
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snarfed not sure salmon does
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bengo That's true as far as I've seen :P
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bengo In the early days of LF we thought all our customers would want to run our software on-prem (a la indieweb), so spent a lot of time researching Salmon for federation. In practice no non-tech business (e.g. publishers, brands) actually seem to want to do that.
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bengo They eagerly prefer Silo as a Service
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bengo (then some do slurp up a real-time feed we send back to them, but for other use cases)
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aaronpk that's a good data point
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snarfed maybe just unlucky timing. you may have been right when you started (about on premise), and the transition happened soon after
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bengo :)
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bengo I don't disagree.
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bengo IMO there will always be a market for both.
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aaronpk enterprise/government companies still prefer/require on-premise
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bengo Depends on what you mean by enterprise? Example?
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aaronpk esri is one example, mostly due to the security requirements because of all the government contracts
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bengo While many big companies to want to run mission-critical software on-prem. A lot of them don't consider their public website and community capabilities to be that way.
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bengo So they use things like Wordpress VIP + Livefyre
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bengo (or Acquia instead of WordPress)
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aaronpk boeing is a fascinating example too, and has representation in the W3C group
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bengo Interesting. Can't tell what CMS presents www.boeing.com, but I see a lot of 'ls-' prefixes
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aaronpk there's a ton of internal systems there, it's really interesting to hear Ann and Adam talk about them
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KevinMarks_ when I tweet about a long-ago blogpost, I'd like my tweet backfed too, as the responses are usually to that and the context doesn't make sense without it
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