#indiewebcamp 2014-12-28

2014-12-28 UTC
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@pwcc @rezzz I'm using them more as I transition to #indieweb, would love them to be extensible + @post_status (twitter.com/_/status/548994350273667073)
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@pwcc @rezzz @post_status owning one's data and reposting to tw, FB, etc. take a look at http://indiewebcamp.com & http://adactio.com/journal/6801 (twitter.com/_/status/548997787103141889)
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tantek aaronpk++ for ownyourgram improvements!
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Loqi aaronpk has 640 karma
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tantek does this mean that you are posting videos via IG to your site?
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Loqi [bridgy] Jason Resnick replied '@pwcc @post_status Oh so pretty much what WordPress has always been?' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/rezzz/status/548998051210477569)
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Loqi [bridgy] Jason Resnick replied '@pwcc @post_status gotcha' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/rezzz/status/548999281701838850)
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Loqi [bridgy] Peter Wilson replied '@rezzz @post_status yeah, that's it, just extending it to exploit social media, rather than have social media exploit me.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/pwcc/status/548999047634092034)
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Loqi [bridgy] Peter Wilson replied '@rezzz @post_status I have work to do, would like to make posting replies & similar easier.' to a tweet http://indiewebcamp.com/ (https://twitter.com/pwcc/status/548998382530723840)
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GWG Looks like pwcc is engaging
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tantek cool
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tantek another example of why we cannot trust any one silo login/auth system: https://twitter.com/marihuertas/status/548988323663200256
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@marihuertas Opened my Apple account to find address + phone changed to a guy in Ohio. Changed pw, reset security Qs, updated info, checked bank. Yikes. (twitter.com/_/status/548988323663200256)
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GWG tantek: Would you be able to weigh in on an Indiemark issue?
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tantek likely
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GWG Why are rel-syndication links at a higher level than Web Actions?
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GWG Rel-syndication links seem like a lower bar to me.
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tantek GWG - because simple silo-specific web actions are *much* easier to build into a system than rel-syndication links, which themselves depend on getting POSSE working, and then storing the results of that POSSEing working.
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tantek Whereas simple silo-specific web actions can be hardcoded into templates on your posts.
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tantek so no, rel-syndication links are not a lower bar. they are a higher bar because of what they depend on.
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tantek Good question however, and I will likely document as an FAQ when I figure out where best to do so.
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snarfed tantek: GWG: that's all true for automated posse, but not for manual. i often manually posse and then add rel-syndication links manually too
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tantek snarfed - even more true for manual
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tantek because it is even more work
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tantek therefore higher bar
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snarfed higher bar than changing your post template?
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snarfed i'd buy equal, but not higher
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GWG snarfed: So do I.
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tantek yes, higher bar. one time action vs. repeated action.
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tantek simple math.
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GWG Creating an automated system is hard too
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tantek GWG - adding a hyperlink to a template is a far cry from creating an automated system
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth
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snarfed you can do posse and synd links manually without even knowing how to code, much less coding your own CMS
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/note
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/article
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/reply
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/like
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/photo
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp
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@dshanske Indieweb 2014 End of Year Summary (https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/) (twitter.com/_/status/549042220146249729)
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snarfed e.g. with GWG's WP syndication plugin
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snarfed you have to at least drop down to html to add web action links
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tantek snarfed, "synd links manually without even knowing how to code" no you need to know how to code a synd link with rel=syndication
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/communication
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/2014/12/27/indieweb-2014-end-year-summary/ posted 'I found out about Indiewebcamp in March of 2014, so I have not yet been involved with it for a complete calendar year. But, I’ve decided, wi...' linking to http://indiewebcamp.com/repost
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snarfed tantek: often yes, but not with GWG's WP plugin, like i said
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tantek aaronpk, good time for indiewebcamp.com mention de-duping?
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tantek or at least clustering from the same "source"?
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GWG tantek: That keeps happening to me
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GWG I wrote one analysis
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tantek GWG, indeed. And you shouldn't be penalyzed for properly citing/referencing in your writing :)
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GWG Spamming...
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GWG snarfed: I need to go back to my plugin by the way. I think I messed up a conditional.
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tantek snarfed, the plugin argument is flawed. similarly there are zillions of "social" plugins out there that add the simple silo-specific web action links.
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tantek if you want to talk plugins, compare plugins
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tantek otherwise, the amount of work required I think is pretty clear
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GWG Web actions as noted could be construed as choosing your favorite silo.
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tantek GWG - not explicit, but implicit. "most used" is implicit. "favorite" is explicit.
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tantek so no, such construing would be illogical.
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+49) "/* Level 2 web actions */ update action to indie-action tag, link to specific how to to make it easier" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+6) "/* web actions */ indie-action" (view diff)
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GWG I took web actions out because I can't figure out how they should work.
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GWG You've observed me in here trying to figure out details.
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tantek GWG web actions provide a minimal UI for a reader of your post to reply / like / repost it.
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tantek The assumption is that you want people to read and interact with your posts.
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tantek Based on the fact that they are a very common and useful / used UI aspect of silo posts.
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tantek what was it that you couldn't figure out?
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GWG When I implemented it, I had a few issues...
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tantek GWG - did you document them?
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tantek e.g. as quesitons
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tantek s/quesitons/questions
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Loqi tantek meant to say: e.g. as questions
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tantek although "quesiton" sounds like a fundamental partical that makes up cheese, which sounds tasty.
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GWG Well, I would rather, thinking about it now, have reply as a local reply.
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GWG I wonder if there is a way to do like and repost locally
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tantek There are more than two choices
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tantek that's the point of web actions
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tantek to put that choice in the hands of the reader
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tantek so they can more easily use their own site to reply / like / repost
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tantek as the publisher, you should only be choosing the fallback behavior
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tantek rather than forcing the reader
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GWG tantek: I'm thinking that the fallback behavior should be local, instead of silo though.
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GWG tantek: You may have inspired me to revisit the issue
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tantek GWG, local may be more user-unfriendly / user-data-ownership than silo though
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tantek that's the problem
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GWG But the web action would override that
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tantek sorry, local maybe *less* user-data-ownership
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tantek yes it would, that does not negate the need for better fallback
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GWG But why is a silo the better fallback?
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GWG I might as well do what some sites do and let the user select from a list of options.
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tantek because a user's comments, faves, reposts are at least all in one place they can export and import into their own site at some point
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tantek as opposed to spread across how many random sites
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tantek that do not offer any way for them to find all their comments and export them / save them
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tantek select from a list of options is a design cop-out
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tantek and more work
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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GWG tantek: Until I decide what I want to do, I suppose it should stay undone.
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tantek GWG, right, add it to your list of itches in order of priority
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tantek so you know you've captured it and will eventually get to it when you feel it necessary
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GWG I have to decide what is next anyway. I just did a bunch of things.
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GWG Well, next after I fix the bug I noticed.
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tantek cool. better to quickly add stuff to your itches page so that you don't have to worry about them.
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tantek and it takes less work to do so.
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tantek (e.g. than to figure out / fix a bug)
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tantek In working on posting favorites from my own site, I'm realizing there are few if any "text first design" resources
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GWG I wish there was
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tantek I may have to write something brief about it
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tantek https://twitter.com/t/status/549065379449147392
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@t Much on: * mobile and/or content first design but not: * text first design * notification first design Too old or new? (ttk.me t4Zr6) (twitter.com/_/status/549065379449147392)
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tantek funny - even a designer friend has no idea - https://twitter.com/teleject/status/549065579185700864
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@teleject @t notification first design? (twitter.com/_/status/549065579185700864)
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KartikPrabhu weird G+ pattern. If you remove someone from circles i.e. unfollow them, then the previous post you received also disappear from timeline
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KartikPrabhu is this what people expect from readers/following?
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KartikPrabhu same is true of Feedly, reader
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GWG Why not? If you stop wanting to see things...
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tantek What is unfollow?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "unfollow" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=unfollow
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KartikPrabhu because I may have liked/responded to previous posts
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tantek.com created /unfollow (+1312) "stub with info off the top of my head and what Kartik noted in IRC, mostly just silo examples" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /follow (+44) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /friend (+23) "r for now" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /friending (+28) "see also follow / unfollow" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: the behavior among silos is inconsistent in the case you speak of: https://indiewebcamp.com/unfollow#Silo_Examples
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tantek to answer your question of "is this what people expect from readers/following?" I don't know, since silo behavior is inconsistent
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KartikPrabhu hmm yeah
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+8) "unfollow now has a page, so link to it" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: well that's one more Twitter Feature documented as a page on indiewebcamp.com - thanks for the prod / seed of additional data on G+ behavior
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KartikPrabhu neat
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KartikPrabhu anyone endeavoring to replace Twitter completely by IWC 2015?
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tantek and by that - you mean replace *their use of Twitter* presumably?
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GWG Replace it with what?
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tantek your own site
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes
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GWG I can't even get my own mother to come to my website. I think the tools to interface with lay people are an issue.
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tantek GWG - hence my correction
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tantek replace *your* use of Twitter
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tantek not your "own mother"
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KartikPrabhu GWG: yes. I meant use you own site to do everything Twitter does for you. POSSE to Twitter included
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KartikPrabhu if i recall that was posed as an informal challenge sometime back
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tantek KartikPrabhu: yes - I posed that challenge a long time ago
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KartikPrabhu yeah the reader bit is a big problem to solve for that
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tantek similarly Barnaby posted the challenge to reduce your own use of Facebook rather than Facebook itself
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tantek KartikPrabhu: there are many features, by reducing them to building blocks each becomes manageable
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KartikPrabhu true. I solved the FB challenge by ceasing to post on FB all together
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tantek most importantly, having a list helps, hence why I've written up: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
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tantek and a more achievable: https://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#2006_original
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GWG I may just go old school. Email
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tantek GWG - except maintaining your own email server is too much of a pain - much much worse than web server
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tantek Email will only make it worse for you
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GWG tantek: I might go through a service. I'm not maintaining a mail server for my mother.
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GWG I think Mandrill will give me 12,000 emails per month
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tantek.com uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:2014-361-ios-recent-notifications.jpg]]""
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tantek.com edited /notification (+181) "Platform Examples / iOS 7" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /Indieweb_Taxonomy (+148) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Indieweb_Taxonomy (+0) "fix '''" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /notification (+435) "/* Platform Examples */ add some textual summary of what's in the screenshot" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /notification (+100) "/* Platform Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /card (+83) "see also notifications" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /notification (+201) "/* Platform Examples */ Note the differences" (view diff)
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tantek takes a look at aaronpk's /like design
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tantek they sure *look* more like reposts ;)
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tantek I believe notifiations provide a clue for how to design the appearance of like/favorite posts without appearing to be just reposts
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tantek will post some brainstorms accordingly
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tantek.com created /favorited (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /liked (+18) "r" (view diff)
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tantek does anyone here post "favorites" on their own site? or does everyone just do "like" posts?
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GWG tantek: I set myself up to post favorites. But the difference is still a question.
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GWG I sort of like acegiak's concept on that
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tantek do you have any URLs to favorite post permalinks by you, acegiak, or anyone else?
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GWG Not specifically.
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tantek does anyone use u-favorite-of markup? or is it always u-like-of?
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GWG I wrote it.
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GWG But am not using it due issues with the difference between favorite and like
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GWG I haven't decided what I wanted to use.
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tantek did your plugin use u-favorite-of markup, or only u-like-of?
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GWG Both
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GWG u-favorite-of for favorites, u-like-of for likes
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tantek ok
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds/blob/master/kind-functions.php#L159
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+537) "add Why, How, IndieWeb Examples (any so far?)" (view diff)
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GWG And yes, I now there is no bookmark-of.
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GWG know.
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tantek.com edited /favorite (-6) "/* Why */" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+165) "/* Why */ alternatively just support likes" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I just use "like" as a verb for both
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KartikPrabhu don't see the need to make a distinction
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tantek I am leaning that direction
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tantek KartikPrabhu: when did you start supporting likes?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: see: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Kartik_Prabhu
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KartikPrabhu the response-context is not great but oh well
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tantek.com edited /favorite (+13) "singular meaning the post type" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu also bridgy uses a u-like-of for Twitter favourites
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tantek.com edited /like (+1108) "capture some brainstorming based on text first design of like posts" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (+358) "add IndieWeb Example Aaron Parecki" (view diff)
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tantek odd - I don't see aaronpk's likes of tweets being POSSEd to Twitter, i.e. to twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites
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tantek or I'm seeing lots of favorites on twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites that are not on aaronparecki.com/likes - so aaronpk hasn't *quite* started owning his favorites yet ;)
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KartikPrabhu oh snap!
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tantek KartikPrabhu I'm pretty sure I have the plain text design of my favorites posts figured out
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tantek see: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#text_design
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KartikPrabhu nice! fwiw I always have interpreted "content-first" as "text-first" then images
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tantek note in particular the clustered presentation of three sequential likes
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KartikPrabhu i think including it explicitly is a good idea
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tantek including what?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I meant explictly naming and explaining it as "Text first"
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tantek ah yes
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tantek I had wondered why nearly no one else had done so
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KartikPrabhu all the fanciness can come later
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tantek right. ultimate minimalism then progressive enhancement
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KartikPrabhu i always thought that's what content first meant!
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KartikPrabhu for instance, I always write the text version of posts first and then add images to the text to help it along
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KartikPrabhu it is progressive enhancement of HTML through its history of being text first and then images and then video etc...
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KartikPrabhu I have a whole article in mind on how progressive enhancement is actually how scientists have been working all along. but writing that is a process of its own
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KartikPrabhu too many thoughts to organise
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tantek collect them into chunks in a text file
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tantek eventually patterns will emerge
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tantek like re-arranging pieces of a jigsaw puzzle
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KartikPrabhu they are in my head until I write them down :) writing thoughts down maks them too rigid for my brain
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tantek solution to that is to keep writing down multiple expressions of the same thought
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KartikPrabhu it is psychological more than anything else
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KartikPrabhu luckily I have better than average memory for nebulous thoughts... but yes I will make a draft post soon
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I might differ with your assertion, how scientists have been working all along is more *reductive* than *constructive*
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tantek breaking things apart into smaller and smaller pieces, rather than building up from the smallest piece
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tantek the latter is the exception, not the rule
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KartikPrabhu aah science facts vs science process... I want to address that too
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KartikPrabhu of course you can leave comments :)
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asdofindia is unhosted.org the same idea as indiewebcamp.com ?
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tantek asdofindia: as with any negative framing, it's not clear what "unhosted" (or "not hosted") actually means or what idea it represents
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tantek asdofindia: OTOH, the home page of indiewebcamp.com says right there what it's about (your content is yours, you are better connected, you are in control), and how it's different from past attempts like blogging and "decentralization".
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: welcome! as for your question, unhosted.org seems to be more about uhosted apps or whatever. Indieweb is more about owning your content ( things that you post online ) using your own domain name instead of silos like Twitter or G+
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asdofindia :D yes, but tbh indiewebcamp homepage is slightly more intimidating than unhosted homepage :P
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next one is 2015-01-14!" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+1) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ oxford comma" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: yes it is. it is not for broawsing but for reading :)
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tantek asdofindia: really? in looking at unhosted.org it seems much more full of jargon and techno-details than indiewebcamp.com
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asdofindia okay, as far as I understand, unhosted just makes candidate apps for http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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tantek asdofindia: not really. most indiewebcamp projects people install and run on their own server.
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tantek asdofindia: what do you find more intimidating (at all) about indiewebcamp.com?
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asdofindia lol. are you at odds with unhosted project? :P I just thought it'd be the same people behind both these sites.
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asdofindia basically, indiwebcamp is about installing existing apps on our own domain and then pushing the updates to silos. Am I right?
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tantek asdofindia: most of us write our own software for our sites, and don't really think of them as separate "apps" per se - do you consider WordPress to be an "app"?
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asdofindia tantek, well not very intimidating, but distracting. But it lasts only a few minutes I think. I now have a better mind map of how indiewebcamp.com is structured so that I can read through
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tantek asdofindia: not at odds but rather a difference of focus of principles
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tantek this may help: https://indiewebcamp.com/Principles
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tantek (if you like lists :) )
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tantek indiewebcamp is a community - rather than "a project" - that's a big difference
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tantek we also place a very high emphasis on selfdogfooding - which few other efforts do
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tantek KartikPrabhu: in continuing my research of "like" post presentation, it appears FB presents like posts with a full copy of the thing that was liked!
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asdofindia posse must be easy. Does backfeed work in practice?
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tantek it does! quite well for the folks that have set it up
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asdofindia backfeed is meant for me, right? the others are not supposed to see the backfeed?
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tantek they see the effects of it on your posts
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asdofindia i mean, if i make a post, and backfeed the facebook comments, it'd be visible if i login to my server as facebook.
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tantek not quite, the idea is that the backfed facebook comments show up on your post as any other comments would
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tantek you can see this often on posts by e.g. benwerd on werd.io
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asdofindia so I am pulling the comments from facebook and permanently appending it to my server, under the posts.
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tantek right!
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asdofindia okay. i'm liking this.
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tantek so even if FB disappears - you still have the entire conversation on your posts on your server
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tantek if/when
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asdofindia do you even posse the replies to those comments? :D
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tantek yes!
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asdofindia beautiful
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tantek best of both worlds: everything on your server under your control, and your friends that use FB get to see the conversation there
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tantek so it works *today* without having to wait for everyone to have their own site
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tantek but if/when you do have your own site, you benefit immediately
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tantek without having to wait for anyone else
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KartikPrabhu poo got logged out!
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tantek.com edited /like (+416) "/* Silo Examples */ update FB example like post with more details" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes FB does show the full post you faved
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KartikPrabhu faved/liked
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KartikPrabhu which is all good for a silo, but for indieweb a good response-context is pretty good.
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KartikPrabhu no need to show the whole 1000 word article if you don't wan tto
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tantek KartikPrabhu: note that the like post permalink presentation on FB is not easily visible
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KartikPrabhu ha yeah I have noticed that
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KartikPrabhu all silos are bad wrt to permalinks
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tantek so it may not have the same detail applied to it
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tantek the other place such "like" posts are shown is in the right sidebar
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KartikPrabhu afaik those are more like notifications
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tantek.com edited /like (+609) "/* Facebook */ note like posts in stream appear much more succinctly with example" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: which is why I started documenting them
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tantek e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications#Platform_Examples
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KartikPrabhu sdofindia do you have a domain name that you use?
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KartikPrabhu s/sdofindia/asdofindia
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: asdofindia do you have a domain name that you use?
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asdofindia KartikPrabhu, yes. But right now I'm hosting it off github pages :D
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KartikPrabhu that is fine
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KartikPrabhu does unhosted.org help you in anyway to do this?
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asdofindia well, a lot of things can be run client side. unhosted helps in that.
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asdofindia but then when it's client side backfeed cannot work.
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asdofindia (It could work, if I keep the comments in silos itself. But that beats the point)
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: doing everything client-side i.e. with javascript is not a good idea in general. specially for owning your data
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asdofindia but it might be a cheaper way for a lot of people to be independent on the web.
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: but it is a bad way. if you JS everything then I can not parse and comment on your post becasue there is no HTML
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KartikPrabhu and I really don't want to parse JS on my readers clients! who knows what that'll do
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asdofindia Do you wanna hear something ambitious? I'm thinking of setting up a google app engine/heroku which will backfeed comments by committing them into the github pages repo
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: isn't that depending on 2 silos :)
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asdofindia :D but I have control of the URLs :P
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KartikPrabhu if you are doing that why not host your site on app engine or heroku
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asdofindia because app engine/heroku has limitations on uptime (?) and storage
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KartikPrabhu looks good to me as a stop-gap measure, but I'd be cautious of putting too much in there
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KartikPrabhu hey prtksxna wassup on indiewebbing?
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prtksxna KartikPrabhu: o/
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: wht is your URL?
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tantek.com edited /like (+770) "/* Facebook */ add right-side notifications stream examples" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu I like to see other site desgins :)
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asdofindia learnlearn.in
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prtksxna KartikPrabhu: Setup my feed to use the latest version of my theme using git instead of having forked code.
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prtksxna KartikPrabhu: Adding social links to theme settings today so that I can add the <link rel="me"…> today!
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: ooo more participants from india cool! have you met prtksxna
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asdofindia no
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prtksxna Hello asdofindia \o
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asdofindia hello prtksxna
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prtksxna How far along are you in this journey asdofindia?
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asdofindia just starting. static htmls for now
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KartikPrabhu asdofindia: from your github it looks like you are a python-person maybe you are interested in http://indiewebcamp.com/python#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek.com edited /like (+227) "/* Facebook */ note odd use of present tense "likes" verb in right-side notifications stream when other microcopy verbs there are all past tense" (view diff)
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asdofindia lol KartikPrabhu I see you in that list
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KartikPrabhu of course ;)
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KartikPrabhu unfortunately my project is in no shape to be open source but i do recommend chekcing out Red Wind
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KartikPrabhu by kylewm
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tantek really odd about FB using present tense "likes" verb yet past tense "commented", "tagged" etc.
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tantek even "shared" is past tense
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes have noticed that inconsistency too
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tantek unlikely that's a mistake, likely there was a deliberate reason for "likes" instead of "liked"
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tantek in their microcopy design
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tantek but I have no idea why
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asdofindia liked this (in the past, but no longer)
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KartikPrabhu maybe to imply "still likes it" instead of "liked this in the past" ?
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tantek perhaps
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tantek focusing on the emotional state (present, likes), rather than the action ("liked")
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KartikPrabhu fwiw: I use all of those as nouns as in "like of" and "reply to" instead of bothering with tenses. But would like to use verbs
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KartikPrabhu nouns are passive verbs are active
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tantek KartikPrabhu: I will likely use the designs I'm brainstorming here http://indiewebcamp.com/like#text_design
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tantek but now I'm wondering if I should also use the present tense "likes"
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tantek since that's what people are used to seeing
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KartikPrabhu tantek: I don't know how persistent the congnitive effect of past v/s present tense is
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KartikPrabhu judas priest! too late in the morning to spell!
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tantek.com edited /like (+288) "/* Facebook */ Possible explanation of deliberate use of present tense "likes" verb in contrast to other past tense verbs" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu prtksxna: good to use latest code on site. I should do that! :)
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KartikPrabhu sorry for late reply... editing paper while chatting
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tantek KartikPrabhu: funny thing, in now having thought that through, along with that hypothesis of an explanation, and re-reading the prose in the image in http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples - I think they would sound better with "likes"
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tantek e.g. "idealisms likes your photo."
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tantek rather than "idealisms liked your photo."
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KartikPrabhu tantek: yes. it seems a very subtle distinction
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tantek subtle but improved in terms of emotional communication and response
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KartikPrabhu yes. but it is again an exception to "replied to" or ""reposted"
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KartikPrabhu you can't use "replies to" or "reposts"
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tantek but I don't need to - I simply post the reply
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@chrislillytv My #WebSeries @justusguystv passed 1000 @YouTube subscribers today! Woo hoo! #indie #indieweb #parenting #youtube https://twitter.com/chrislillytv/status/549148661079216128/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/549148661079216128)
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KartikPrabhu yes. but does the original appear as "replied to postXYZ" or "replies to postXYZ" ?
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tantek and my reply-context says "In reply to:"
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KartikPrabhu i mean response-context
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tantek I only show the reply-context on the reply permalink, not in-stream
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KartikPrabhu i see. "likes" with "in reply to" and "repost of" makes sense
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KartikPrabhu that webseries by @chrislillytv is not very indie
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tantek.com edited /like (+270) "/* text design */ deliberately use "likes" instead of "liked"" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu I haven't gotten to repost of yet, or rather, not since we last discussed it in New York: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/reposts#Repost_presentation
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KartikPrabhu tantek: in any case your "text first" approach should resolve any conflicts
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tantek indeed
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tantek another reason "like" is better than "favorite" - the equivalent present tense for favorite, e.g. "favorites", doesn't make sense nor read well.
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tantek "likes" works well as both the present state of liking, and implying an explicit liking action in the past
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@t documented some existing notifications: http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples & #indieweb likes design ideas: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (ttk.me t4Zs1) (twitter.com/_/status/549154742413574144)
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tantek that's enough for tonight. will sleep on it and see about adding markup to that text design in the morning. then it's a small matter from there to implementation in Falcon :)
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KartikPrabhu boom! night tantek
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Loqi [bridgy] Robin Taylor favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Loqi [bridgy] Robin Taylor favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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@hugoroyd RT @t: documented some existing notifications: http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples & #indieweb likes design ideas: http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (ttk.me t4Zs1) (twitter.com/_/status/549175784309813248)
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Loqi [bridgy] Pelle Wessman favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Loqi [bridgy] Pelle Wessman favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Loqi [bridgy] Hugo Roy à·´ retweeted a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/hugoroyd/status/549175784309813248)
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Loqi [bridgy] Hugo Roy à·´ retweeted a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/hugoroyd/status/549175784309813248)
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asdofindia after tthinking so much I realized one thing. I don't really care about interaction with friends :P
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charles.stanho.pe created /User:Charles.stanho.pe (+921) "Initial content" (view diff)
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Loqi [bridgy] David Kaneda favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Loqi [bridgy] David Kaneda favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Phyks hi
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Phyks btw, is there any specific reason for your publishing softwares to be closed source and only part of them to be open source ?
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Phyks are they too tailor made ? or something like this ?
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@amblin @myrPaul Indieweb has gotten me excited about the web again. (twitter.com/_/status/549243353855197184)
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tantek Phyks - yes - too tailor made and likely too fragile. At least speaking for myself.
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tantek realized I need to put the "when did I like this thing" datetime (or perhaps just time) in the like posts design to have something to link to a permalink
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Phyks ok
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Phyks because when one first comes on the indiewebcamp wiki, it's a bit difficult to find a solution to try easily
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Phyks well, there is known, but it is the only "user-friendly" one I am aware of
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Phyks (+wordpress)
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Phyks and people interested in POSSE and selfhosting may not have yet the knowledge necessary to build their own solutions
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tantek Phyks, true on all accounts. There's also RedWind which recently picked up its second user.
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tantek One of the driving goals of indiewebcamp is to design/develop protocols & formats & methods (like POSSE) to be as simple/minimal as possible so that more people *can* build their own solutions.
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tantek There is strength in multiple projects supporting common protocols/formats/methods
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tantek as opposed to every other attempt at this kind of thing which assumes "Everybody go install this one project"
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tantek AKA monoculture
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tantek.com edited /notification (+399) "/* iOS 7 */" (view diff)
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snarfed happy birthday aaronpk!
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tantek.com edited /notification (+20) "/* Instagram */ brs" (view diff)
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tantek !tell aaronpk Happy Birthday!!!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi [bridgy] Thierry Marianne favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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Loqi [bridgy] Thierry Marianne favorited a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/t/status/549154742413574144)
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tantek.com created /birthday (+486) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /🎂 (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek !tell aaronpk I maded you a page: https://indiewebcamp.com/🎂 :D
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Phyks yep, I understand the monoculture thing
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Phyks and I totally agree on this
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Phyks but newbies may lack some demo implementations sometimes, or have troubles to find them in the wiki
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Phyks it's just something I noticed lately as I was going through the wiki
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tantek Phyks - agreed - we are working on improving the /projects page accordingly
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Phyks nice !
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tantek there's definitely plenty of areas indiewebcamp can be improved! :)
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Phyks (especially, in the examples page, there is both ready to use projects and tailored made ones)
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tantek right - that in particular needs to be better clarified, and what we're trying to do with the section at the top
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Phyks I'm speaking of this one https://indiewebcamp.com/notes#IndieWeb_Examples
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tantek well that's different - those are all *people* not projects
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tantek that's another difference, our real world examples are people-centric rather than project-centric
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Phyks yep, but there are plenty of links to Falcon / p3k / Taproot and as a new comer I was expecting to be able to download them
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tantek there are plenty of links to those because those were some of the first IndieWeb implementations to be developed
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Phyks yep
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Phyks I missed the /projects page
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Phyks or at least spent way more time on the /notes one than on the /projects one
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tantek it's in the sidebar :)
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Phyks (true) but it's exactly what I was missing
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tantek indeed, I am realizing it was a bit buried in the middle of the home page
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+107) "move get started and projects to before Beyond Blogging so it doesn't appear to be only part of that, emphasize people-focused" (view diff)
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tantek Phyks, you've already found /projects now, however I updated the home page slightly to hopefully make "projects we're building" more prominent / obvious
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tantek take a look https://indiewebcamp.com/
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tantek Who thinks their WordPress site is particularly nicely designed / pretty?
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tantek and/or posts frequently?
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Phyks I've never used wordpress for personal blogging, sorry
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tantek no problem, I'm working on an incremental improvement to /Projects :)
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Phyks but maybe soon there will be one new Known instance as it seems to perfectly fit my needs and I'd rather extend it than reinvent the wheel
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tantek yes, Known is quite good
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Phyks nice @ new homepage
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tantek ok kylewm I'm declaraing RedWind no longer "experimental" since you have a second active user :)
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Phyks also, concerning indieauth, is it planned to be able to selfhost it also, a bit like what openID was offering ?
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Phyks I read something about it, but cannot find the info again…
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tantek Phyks it *is* possible to self host it - details on the /IndieAuth page
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Phyks true
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Phyks everything is in the wiki… i just simply don't search efficiently
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Loqi [bridgy] ☁FollowerSale.com replied '@t Increase your business reach to new dimensions - 40% discount bit.ly/1wZOeHe' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/like#Brainstorming (https://twitter.com/hunepicojuvo/status/549258669863743488)
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Loqi [bridgy] ☁FollowerSale.com replied '@t Increase your business reach to new dimensions - 40% discount bit.ly/1wZOeHe' to a tweet that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/notification#Platform_Examples (https://twitter.com/hunepicojuvo/status/549258669863743488)
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@1JohnLivesay RT @chrislillytv: My #WebSeries @justusguystv passed 1000 @YouTube subscribers today! Woo hoo! #indie #indieweb #parenting #youtube http://… (twitter.com/_/status/549261697186537472)
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GWG Tantek, snarfed has a nice clean site using a standard WordPress theme.
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tantek indeed!
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tantek petermolnar's is quite nice too, yet looks different from snarfed's
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GWG I am thinking of redoing mine again. I used Bootstrap.
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GWG I thought I might try without training wheels
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GWG Tantek, the nice thing about WordPress is it is skinable.
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tantek.com edited /projects (+287) "clean-up Known entry a bit, move WordPress and Red Wind up to main list up top since they are installable and usable today" (view diff)
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tantek ok there we go, Known, WordPress, and Red Wind all open source, installable, and bumped to the top of /Projects
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tantek thanks for the reminder / poke Phyks!
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tantek.com edited /projects (-42) "/* Get On The IndieWeb */ use people templates where they already exist" (view diff)
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Phyks wow nice ! thanks for the update !
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GWG That's how community works. Ask and someone updates the wiki.
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GWG It's usually Tantek, which is why the term tanteking was coined
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tantek Phyks we try to be very responsive to good feedback :)
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tantek (even critical feedback, especially)
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tantek.com created /friends (+23) "r for now" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /like (+1156) "/* text design */ explicitly note dates of like posts to provide context and a permalink hook, splitting times and date in clustered in-stream view, and where times/dates link to" (view diff)
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tantek comments / feedback on like post (and cluster of likes) design? http://indiewebcamp.com/like#text_design
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tantek (i'll be checking IRC logs)
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GWG I just finished fiddling with this and now you do it?
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GWG TIming...
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tantek.com edited /like (+319) "/* Facebook */ subheads for each section" (view diff)
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tantek GWG - you could have explicitly documented your design process as well before you fiddled with it
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tantek I haven't written any code yet
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tantek UX and design first
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tantek I am practicing open source design by putting it on the wiki as well which is CC0 which means anyone can copy my design ideas
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tantek GWG - also, I believe I *did* recommend to you to first design a plain text version without all the layout and type and stuff
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tantek and that's exactly what I ended up doing when I got around to it
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tantek.com edited /like (+117) "/* text design */ linky" (view diff)
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GWG tantek: It was more rhetorical. I alway have that sort of timing.
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GWG I need to document what I ended up doing on the reply-context page.
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GWG I saved time by marking up like-context, reply-context, etc identically
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GWG Or does that belong somewhere else than reply-context examples?
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tantek they're not all the same
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tantek reply-context is specifically important because it is *context* for what your reply is about - without it the reply might not make much sense
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tantek there's no such thing as a "like-context"
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tantek there's no need to show any context to explain a "like"
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tantek *however*, what people (silos, others) do do is often show a /link-preview of what they've linked to in a post, whether a note with a link, a bookmark, or a like.
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GWG I'm using the same code, but I'm still working on the terminology
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GWG So, link-preview is probably better, but how much is shown is set by how much data I enter in the UI
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 47 minutes ago: Happy Birthday!!!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 38 minutes ago: I maded you a page: https://indiewebcamp.com/🎂 :D
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aaronpk hehe thanks
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snarfed re the mention of replacing your own twitter usage…i feel like i've done that since early this year. reading, tweeting, replying, favoriting, retweeting
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snarfed i now go to dev.twitter.com way more than twitter.com :P
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snarfed (the latter maybe once a month or two)
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aaronpk wow
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snarfed looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Replacing …
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aaronpk what do you use for reading? i forgot
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snarfed https://twitter-atom.appspot.com/ and feed reader
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aaronpk wow
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snarfed supports four-tap (roughly) reply/like/RT
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snarfed (that's all https://snarfed.org/easy-indieweb-interactions-on-android , not the reader or twitter-atom, but still)
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tantek snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 65 karma
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snarfed not sure if that satisfies the challenge, but fwiw.
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snarfed heads off to write up his 2015-01-01 thing
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tantek snarfed: you've certainly reached the highest level of independence from Twitter (while still supporting friends there) that I know of.
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snarfed thanks!
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tantek looks forward to snarfed's post about how he's replaced his Twitter usage over the past year :D
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snarfed heh. can't say i plan to write that post - i've documented all the parts, and i guess i'm just not that personally motivated to write up the integration - but maybe!
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aaronpk oh interesting
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aaronpk https://twitter.com/aaronpk/favorites shows my favorites in reverse date order of the original tweet
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aaronpk not in the order of when I favorited them
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aaronpk that's why tantek saw a bunch of favorites there that aren't on my site
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@aaronpk @jkphl Thanks! :-) Looking forward to meeting again at IndieWebCamp DE! (twitter.com/_/status/549282518118060032)
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aaronpk oh that's awful, I can't even reliably PESOS favorites from twitter because they aren't returned in favorited order in the API
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aaronpk even more reason to use my own favoriting interface instead of the twitter star button
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snarfed aaronpk: i feel your pain. :/ https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/73
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wwelves.org perpetual-tripper edited /HTTPS (+130) "/* Obtain */ added Let's Encrypt provider" (view diff)
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neuro` Good morning
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Phyks hmmm… is #microformats the right place to discuss about microformats and how to implement them ?
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GWG Phyks: Depends. Sometimes
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Phyks because there does not seem to be much activity
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Phyks ^^
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Phyks (I was wondering how to parse h-feed as all the properties are optionnal, if I understood correctly)
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aaronpk has anyone else had problems with the IndiePub known plugin?
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aaronpk specifically it looks like the get() function here is running even for POST requests https://github.com/idno/IndiePub/blob/master/Pages/IndieAuth/Token.php
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Phyks aaronpk: I tried to set it up, but I had errors with quill, unable to find the endpoint and I hadn't have time to look at it
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ben_thatmust ick, not liking the look of android dev
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ben_thatmust was hoping to write a webmention notify app or micropub client
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aaronpk Phyks: that just sounds like the indiepub plugin is not enabled
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Phyks on my instance ?
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aaronpk yeah
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Phyks hmm… how do you know ?
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Phyks because Known tells me it is both installed *and* activated
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aaronpk well if quill is unable to find the endpoint, then it sounds like known isn't putting the tags in the page
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aaronpk i don't know how themes work in Known, but maybe a different theme would have the tags in the header?
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Phyks aaronpk: I see <link rel="authorization_endpoint" href="https://indieauth.com/auth">
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Phyks <link rel="token_endpoint" href="http://known.phyks.me/indieauth/token">
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Phyks <link rel="micropub" href="http://known.phyks.me/micropub/endpoint"><link
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Phyks in my headers
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Phyks (quill fails after the auth itself, it finds the head tags, but known does not seem to be routing them)
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aaronpk hm maybe we are having the same problem
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aaronpk hm I just get a 404 from your token endpoint, which is not quite what i'm seeing on mine
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aaronpk I also don't know how URL routing works in Known, so I'm kind of stuck when it comes to troubleshooting this
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Phyks same for me… I know that the plugin is registering routes, and after a bit of debug, it seems the registering is called
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Phyks I did not have time to debug more since yesterday =(
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GWG I need a second set of eyes
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GWG https://github.com/dshanske/indieweb-post-kinds
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GWG The README in this repository, does the description make sense.
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Loqi [mention] http://new.benjamincode.com/blog/2014/12/28/indieweb/ linked to https://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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