#indiewebcamp 2014-12-11

2014-12-11 UTC
simonv3, KartikPrabhu, shiflett, KartikPrabhu1, wolftune and yakker joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
reason for using url parameter: auto can insert full url by copy-paste and works simply with form input :D
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KartikPrabhu
thanks finchd bear and tantek for suggestions
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finchd
you're welcome, maybe I'll get my own site up soon, since my finals are this week....
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@BillSeitz
RT @rhiaro: .@benwerd is talking about @withknown at @techmeetup this evening. I didn't know Known targeted education #indieweb http://t.co…
(twitter.com/_/status/542842861172318208)
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KartikPrabhu
oh yeah it is finals week.... all the best
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KartikPrabhu
what is POSSE-post discovery?
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Loqi
POSSE-Post-Discovery is a way to find the canonical version of a post when a syndicated copy does not contain a link to the original https://indiewebcamp.com/posse-post-discovery
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KartikPrabhu
feels good to implement small ideas on own site :)
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KartikPrabhu
another idea a site could advertise the original-of endpoint and bridgy could use it directly for POSSE-post-discovery instead of scanning feeds? cc: snarfed kylewm
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: interesting, but not a priority for us. scanning feeds has the benefit of working with all existing sites :P
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: maybe feed-scanning could be a fallback just a thought
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snarfed
maybe!
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snarfed
what's the problem you're trying to solve? (ie that feed scanning doesn't solve)
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KartikPrabhu
human people doing POSSE-post discovery :)
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snarfed
ah. i vaguely recall seeing this discussed before, and the conclusion was, for most sites, just looking visually usually worked
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KartikPrabhu
might could be.
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KartikPrabhu
of course no need to change bridgy on account of me :)
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snarfed
also, bridgy isn't a human :P
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KartikPrabhu
ha! yes. I was thinking it would make it faster if it used the endpoint
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snarfed
it would! but it doesn't really need to be
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snarfed
the best code i write is usually the code i *avoid* writing :P
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@schnarfed
The best code I ever write is the code I avoid writing at all. (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-17_9081)
(twitter.com/_/status/456913166338129921)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: how about /original-post-discovery ?
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tantek
feed scanning doesn't work for anything that has fallen off the time/items window of the feed
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tantek.com
edited /original-post-discovery (-53) "/* See Also */ posse post discovery"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /original-post-discovery (+81) "/* Implementations */ move live demo link to p3k here"
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pwcc
@tantek any reason XML sitemaps aren't available for sioriginal-post-discovery?
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KartikPrabhu
pwcc: because XML
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KartikPrabhu
!tell tantek hmm didn't know about /original-post-discovery . would be useful to implement for replying and so on like p3k does
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pwcc
KartikPrabhu ha, you make an excellent, excellent point
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KartikPrabhu
also do people publish XML sitemaps anymore?
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pwcc
Hmm, not sure. I've got one but would love to know the stats.
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gRegor`
What is original-of?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "original-of" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=original-of
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gRegor`
^ KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu
hey take that back
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gRegor`
Nuh uh
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tantek
good evening #indiewebcamp!
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 40 minutes ago: hmm didn't know about /original-post-discovery . would be useful to implement for replying and so on like p3k does
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tantek
indeed KartikPrabhu!
j12t, cweiske, reidab, simonv3_, wowaname, friedcell, elima, KartikPrabhu, csarven, LauraJ, verdi_, loic_m, petermolnar, elf-pavlik, stream7, Sebastien-L, michielbdejong, sanduhrs, gavinc_, gavinc__, simonv3, mlncn-agaric, danlyke_, Jihaisse, reedstrm, wolftune, KevinMarks, veselosky, gRegor`, shiflett, tantek and chalettu joined the channel
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: querying an original-of lookup endpoint was the proof of concept posse-post-discovery for bridgy! see https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/125 for deets
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aaronpk
re: yesterday's SPOF discussion...
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aaronpk
everything is a SPOF, whether it's a system you've built yourself or something you're relying on like bridgy
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aaronpk
and no service or system is permanent
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aaronpk
so the best you can do is own your data, and treat things like bridgy or your own version as plumbing that can be replaced, where you're not relying on it to store things or as public identifiers
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aaronpk
danlyke: GWG: gRegor`: snarfed: tantek: ^^
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bret
"The decision of Google comes as response to new Spanish legislation that gives publishers the right to claim compensation for republishing any part of their content. "
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bret
aaronpk: yes no maybe: what do you think about requiring the bearer token be in the http header for multipart micropub requests?
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bret
i.e. only allowing bearer tokens in the body for form encoded
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aaronpk
it's easier to parse that way?
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aaronpk
I dunno, if you just make a browser form it'll send it as one of the parts
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fiatjaf
bret: we should ignore these laws.
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snarfed
aaronpk: well said!
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@kevinmarks
#indieweb @t: it makes a nice slogan "damn the man, fight the silos" but they are handy as plumbing
(twitter.com/_/status/442017139630039041)
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tantek
good day #indiewebcamp!
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@amandapalmer
the first 100 people to buy "the art of asking" using this historic tweet will get a signed manuscript draft page! https://gumroad.com/l/amandapalmer
(twitter.com/_/status/543134137239216129)
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aaronpk
from gumroad!
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KartikPrabhu
oh first time I have seen one I guess
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ben_thatmustbeme
for those interested in person-tag, do you think it makes sense to break tags up into their own post or are they just a comment with additional features
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ben_thatmustbeme
in other words, thoughts on doing tag & comment in one reply
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tantek
the design deliberately allows for either publishing model
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tantek
the question is, how do you want such a post to *look* on *your* site
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tantek
figure out that visual design first, and then the markup will follow accordingly
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, I know. Thats what i was trying to think of
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ben_thatmustbeme
its more setting up storage in the *ducks for cover* database
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ben_thatmustbeme
i figure i'll insert a couple test tags first, and get my display working first, then worry about receiving them correctly
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tantek
storage (AKA plumbing) first is poor design methodology
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tantek
sketch out how you want it to look first, even mock it up with a static HTML version
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tantek
and then work backwards to storage
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ben_thatmustbeme
well i have a plan on that, i am thinking it will just be as a standard comment with a note saying that they tagged John Smith in this photo
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, that actually makes things even simpler now that i think about it
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tantek
is this for displaying others' comments with tags, or posting your own replies with tags?
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ben_thatmustbeme
tags are just extra features on a comment
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ben_thatmustbeme
displaying others' comments with tags
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ben_thatmustbeme
posting my own i haven't looked at yet
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ben_thatmustbeme
i tend to do those just as another "post" with more options. It will be pulling in the tagged image that should be interesting. Have not dealt with that in the past
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: there are three variants: 1) your own post (e.g. perhaps a photo post) with tags (perhaps people/area tags), 2) your own *reply* tag post that is tagging *someone else's* post, 3) *others* comments with tags on *your posts*, that tag your post.
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tantek
which variant are you working on first?
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ben_thatmustbeme
wait, no, i was thinking of 3
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was thinking of 1 and 3 combined
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tantek
that seems like a harder one to start with
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tantek
whereas 1 by itself is worthy of doing
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tantek
and less work than 3
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is a 4th actually
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ben_thatmustbeme
others tagging me in other's posts
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tantek
yes - that notification goes to your home page
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, definitely given me some food for thought though
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tantek
do you have a page on your site where you view of a list of webmentions sent to your home page?
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ben_thatmustbeme
its not just my homepage, but they would show up in the list of "mentions"
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ben_thatmustbeme
basically since I don't display mentions of a post, anything that comes through as a "mention" (not "comment" or "like") just goes in to that general bin for now
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ben_thatmustbeme
I haven't worked out anything more for UI
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tantek
ah - this might be a good use-case for separating out home page mentions as mentions of *you* rather than just mentions of a *post*.
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ben_thatmustbeme
i already store that, or rather, I store what *post* things mention, so that if a static page (like my WM client) gets mentioned its noted as that same type, but it would be a good idea to have just the homepage as something special in that
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tantek
right
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tantek
what I have not quite worked through (but have mentioned in IRC in the past week or so) is how to create an "untag" post to untag yourself from a post or a photo etc.
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, i had been thinking about that too
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tantek
the simple/obvious thing is a reply post with u-untag-of link to the post with the person-tag, and that's it. the receiver of the webmention from the reply simply uses the domain of the source as what to untag in the post. no extra markup needed.
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tantek
which by design only lets someone untag themselves.
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ben_thatmustbeme
you don't need much markup really, it can be just based on the person's site
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tantek
that's what I just said :)
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ben_thatmustbeme
hah, well i guess we were on the same line of thinking there
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was actually going to say untag-of too
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tantek
right, the design is quite obvious to deduce from previous designs/patterns
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ben_thatmustbeme
i like that it automatically means that only the person who is actually tagged can untag themselves
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ben_thatmustbeme
*OR* the person who tagged them can remove their post along normal editing methods
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ben_thatmustbeme
i would expect that to delete the tag as well
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ben_thatmustbeme
i'm sort of torn on whether to require myself to post a tag-of to my own photos or not
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ben_thatmustbeme
so i have to create a post that tags my photo posts
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tantek
I mean you could if you want to show it as a separate activity
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tantek
really that's about what presentation / UX you want to show on your own site
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tantek
do you want to show something like "post a photo with A, B, C in it"
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tantek
"posted a photo"
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tantek
"tagged A, B, C in photo"
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tantek
"posted a photo"
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tantek
"tagged A in photo"
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tantek
"tagged B in photo"
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tantek
"tagged C in photo"
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tantek
you can be as wordy / granular as you wish ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, but that gets a bit too wordy i feel
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tantek
right, judgment call per person per their own site
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ben_thatmustbeme
although i do want to go super granular at some point
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ben_thatmustbeme
well there is no system for others to tag multiple people though
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tantek
point is you can start with the first way (all in one post), and then go more granular later
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tantek
yes of course there is
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tantek
a reply post with multiple person-tags in it
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, actually, i hadn't thought of that
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tantek
thought I mentioned that in the write-up
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tantek
or at least in the IRC brainstorm ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
I must have missed it, i don't see it on the wiki
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ben_thatmustbeme
i remember discussing multiple photos and such, but for some reason i thought it was said 1 person-tag per post, but you are right, there is no need to limit it there
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think i would go with "posted a photo" then "tagged A, B, C in photo"
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tantek.com
edited /tag-reply (+73) "clarify by example that you can post a tag-reply with multiple tags"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /tag-reply (+17) "/* See Also */ person-tag\"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+495) "/* How */ simple example per proposed in IRC a few weeks ago"
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+4) "/* How */ ws"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+169) "/* How */ multiple ok too"
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tantek
there you go ben_thatmustbeme: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#How
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+16) "/* See Also */ tag-reply"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
just need to make sure that u-untag-of posts are published privately or semi-privately
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ben_thatmustbeme
otherwise its as good as a tag
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ben_thatmustbeme
what is tag-reply
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Loqi
A tag reply is a response to another post that tags that post with one or more tags https://indiewebcamp.com/tag-reply
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ben.thatmustbe.me
edited /tag-reply (-6) "clarity, make "that post" unambiguous"
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tantek.com
created /area-tag (+980) "stub with dfn, quick braindump how to since benthatmustbe me is approaching implementation"
(view diff)
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: that should be a good start on how to tag a person beyond being *in* a photo, but at a particular spot/rect.
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tantek.com
edited /area-tag (+17) "see also person-tag"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /tag-reply (+15) "see also area tag"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme
there is no way to suggest removal of a category tag though is there?
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ben_thatmustbeme
once you start auto-tagging things, it would be nice to have people say "this post shouldn't be tagged Foo"
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tantek
why would you have any right to?
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tantek
or better: what existing system supports that?
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ben_thatmustbeme
no right to, "suggest"
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tantek
any real world examples?
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tantek
or is this a hypothetical wish that no one has implemented on any system anywhere?
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, it does that only for your own posts in G+
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ben_thatmustbeme
posts/images are autotagged, but you are correct its not something i've seen in social
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tantek
a-ha! a way to record your untagging of *other peoples tags* on *your posts*.
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tantek
e.g. Flickr lets others tag your photos
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tantek
and then you can simply [x] delete them
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tantek
and just like person untaggings, not clear what you would do with those permalinks
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ben_thatmustbeme
i was thinking just as admin side, but true, if you want to record / disply that
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tantek
I've never seen it saved anywhere in stream like format, but the *action* of untagging a plain text tag certainly exists in Flickr - and maybe other systems
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tantek
what is an untag?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "untag" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=untag
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ben_thatmustbeme
u-untag-of with a category tag
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tantek
that's just a plain text tag
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tantek
no need to say "category tag"
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ben_thatmustbeme
so untag-of with a tag doesn't assume all tags, its just the tag you mention (rightly so)
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/tag you mention/tag(s) you mention/
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Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: so untag-of with a tag doesn't assume all tags, its just the tag(s) you mention (rightly so)
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tantek
correct
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ben_thatmustbeme
off to catch my train
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GWG
I feel like I need to expand the backup page on the wiki
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GWG
I've been meaning to set up some backups
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david.shanske.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+145) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */"
(view diff)
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david.shanske.com
edited /Homebrew_Website_Club (+1) "/* Up-and-coming Meetings */"
(view diff)
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GWG
I've been meaning to add that to the wiki for a whilenow
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KevinMarks
Hm, thinking about homepage webmentions as person tags rather than post tags
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KevinMarks
There is a problem if someone is webmentioning a post on your homepage
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KevinMarks
Via a fragment or fragmention
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tantek
will wait until someone actually does this.
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snarfed1
aww what fun is that
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tantek
way more fun focusing on real world behaviors first :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: do you know if anyone has done a JS embed to display marginalia similar to how you display them, however retrieving the marginalia from a webmention proxy like webmention.io?
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tantek
could be handy for displaying marginalia on things like W3C specs which may be able to delegate their webmention receiving, but not actually be able to handle receiving/storing webmentions themselves
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