#indiewebcamp 2014-12-04

2014-12-04 UTC
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rascul
maths is hard :(
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gRegor`
Hello from Chicago HWC
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Loqi
yeah!
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@jimgroom
RT @dmlresearchhub: Another great #ccourses webinar this Friday @ 9AM PT - Connecting to the #Indieweb Movement http://connectedcourses.net/event/unit-6-class-2-connecting-to-the-indieweb-movement/
(twitter.com/_/status/540307570968510464)
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@4c4d
im pretty sure the safest way to do #iot is selfhost/#indieweb it
(twitter.com/_/status/540309654333435904)
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aaronpk
just realized something... "___ is invited" shouldn't really be an h-entry with the person who is invited as the author, since that's not who created the post
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aaronpk
ok yeah nobody is putting the invitee as the author in the markup
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aaronpk
but common display conventions people are displying the invitees the same way they would a comment author
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk
hwc pdx starting now!
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aaronpk
danny - no website yet, builds websites as a consultant
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tantek
hello #indiewebcamp Portland!
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aaronpk
bret.io - site is a static website using jekyll, because it's free to host.
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aaronpk
...but is also very limiting in what I can do
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aaronpk
...started a project last week to generate sparklines from other data sources like the Nest thermostat
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aaronpk
...also thinking about making a service to convert youtube videos to mp3 podcasts to be able to listen to youtube videos offline
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aaronpk
tantek.com - in pdx this week for mozilla, put "http://tantek.com/contact.html" on his nametag
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aaronpk
...now working on adding a firefox "hello" icon so you can call his firefox OS phone from a browser via webrtc
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aaronpk
...we should clearly start calling them "communicators" instead of "phones" because that's already been predicted by star trek
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aaronpk
@jet - works at mozilla on the rendering team
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aaronpk
... website is junglecode.net
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aaronpk
... was at IndieWebCamp NYC
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aaronpk
... would like to redesign his site since it looks dated. been working on media-related things.
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aaronpk
... letting the server choose what quality of video to stream depending on the quality of the signal
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bret
aaronpk.com
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bret
tracks all sorts of stuff... bike rides, eats, trips etc
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bret
whatever he can throw on to there
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bret
working on tracking food
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bret
via a pebbl watch
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bret
working on skitch to flicker
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bret
bc skitch 2.0 only posts to evernote post acquisition
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bret
webdav->micropub endpoint
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+612) "/* Working On */ indie comms Hello button"
(view diff)
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bret
favorite tracker: jawbone... steps and sleep
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aaronpk
sean: seanniesen.com
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aaronpk
... background in art school, recently completed the epicodus program
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bret
discussing pingback, webmention and recent criticisms regarding vouch
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bret
solution for pingback spam was a Bayesian filter style spam filter
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bret
posts would get filtered when they included too many links
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bret
wordpress pingback is the target... not pingback in general
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bret
irc demp!
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bret
demo*
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tantek
does the wordpress webmentio plugin have an expiring endpoint?
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tantek
if not, probably a good idea
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tantek
GWG: ^^^
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snarfed
bret: re youtube-to-mp3 service, you're familiar with youtube-dl, right?
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snarfed
and http://www.xenra.com/ and lots of other existing ones
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aaronpk
snarfed: the difference is youtube-to-podcast :) for offline listening
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bret
snarfed: yeah thats what I would use... + a podcast feed to get it on my phone
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snarfed
aaronpk: confused. youtube-dl -x converts to .mp3
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snarfed
ahhhh podcast feed. like for a yt channel?
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bret
snarfed: i want a web app that wraps yt-dl
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Loqi
gives bret a web app that wraps yt
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snarfed
bret: right, but again, that's http://www.xenra.com/ and lots of other existing ones
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bret
snarfed: for whatever.. random links, play lists, watch later list
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aaronpk
but there's no way to save an mp3 to your iphone
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aaronpk
which is why the podcast hack is clever
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aaronpk
GWG++ nice! added 4 days ago
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Loqi
GWG has 38 karma
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GWG
Already filed.
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GWG
Along with Support for Verifying Client AP and a proposal about Comment author must have a previously approved comment...which is a WordPress setting, but essentially, whitelist.
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GWG
Also, vouch support
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snarfed
aaronpk: bret: got it. agreed. if you're converting on the server and then serving the mp3 from there, that should work
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bret
plus i just wannt build some python web apps
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snarfed
view source on https://snarfed.org/podcasts for notes on my past research
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snarfed
GWG: tantek: re expiring wm endpoints, fwiw they make endpoint discovery less cacheable, which is sad for high volume senders
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snarfed
it's been discussed before, but i don't see it captured on /webmention. maybe somewhere else
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snarfed
aaronpk: bret: the difficulty with any service like that is load. downloading from yt uses a lot of bandwidth, transcoding uses lots of cpu, etc
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snarfed
which has killed many of these services when they get popular
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snarfed
just a heads up
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snarfed
regardless, i'd *kill* for this service myself. please do make it!!!
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bret.io
edited /email (+64) "/* Support */ added http://questo.email/mail-to-web"
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GWG
snarfed: It could be an optional feature
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GWG
No settings page
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kylewm
do we not know who behind is questo.mail?
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kylewm
talking like yoda, i am
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kylewm
my money is on fiatjaf
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aaronpk
it is. does it not say that on the site?
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aaronpk
funny, I coulda sworn it mentioned him earlier. or at least in the whois or something
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aaronpk
kylewm: hey i'm really close to replacing the mf2 parser for webmention.io!
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bret
aaronpk++
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Loqi
aaronpk has 616 karma
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aaronpk
the ruby parser made it easy cause it has a bunch of built-in methods for accessing things like the first h-entry on a page, or the first author in an h-entry
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aaronpk
like page.entry.author
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gRegor`
what is questo.email?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "questo.email" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=questo.email
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gRegor`
what is questo?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "questo" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=questo
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snarfed
aaronpk: finally got the schema set up w/ruby 2.1.5
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snarfed
thanks for the nudge to try that again
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aaronpk
*whew*
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aaronpk
did you find a root problem? or just tried again and it worked?
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snarfed
eh, i've documented the individual 2.0.0 problems and workarounds, but i can't say i fully understand them
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snarfed
i haven't looked for smoking gun bug fixes or changes in ruby post 2.0.0, if that's what you mean
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aaronpk
huh, i was able to run it under 2.1.3 without any changes
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aaronpk
sometimes I don't understand this stuff either
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snarfed
oh i believe you on 2.1.3. my problems were under 2.0.0
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aaronpk
oh funny
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GWG
Almost done with my emergency extraction of my sites to their new home
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snarfed
aaronpk: indeed. also that new puts e.backtrace is also in my PR :P
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snarfed
(ignore that PR for now btw)
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aaronpk
my plan was to inspect the post in this "if parsed" block and override the "message" variable if a better message can be generated
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aaronpk
the ruby parser isn't really documented, you just kind of have to guess how to use it based on the couple examples given here https://github.com/G5/microformats2
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aaronpk
okay that's live! hope it doesn't break anything :)
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bret.io
edited /events/2014-12-03-homebrew-website-club (+74) "/* Notes */ Added writing hour time"
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bret.io
edited /Events (+0) "Moved todays HWC to past events"
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bret
aaronpk: does it re parse old messages?
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pwcc
re 08:05 (Webmention into WordPress) there's nothing in trac but I can ask around re: thoguths from core committers.
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pwcc
WP 4.1 is due to be release very soon, so planning meetings for new features are due soonish.
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bret
if it does make it into wordpress, lets cross our fingers that short lived WM endpoint urls come by default.
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GWG
pwcc: I have a proposal on that though.
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GWG
1. Webmentions replace pingbacks and trackbacks, which are discontinued
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GWG
2. XMLRPC support is discontinued
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GWG
3. JSON REST API replaces XMLRPC.
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GWG
Speaking of which, someone is probing XMLRPC on one of my sites.
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pwcc
GWG most of that makes sense to me but can't see it getting past on back compat grounds - the leads are very keen on it.
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GWG
pwcc: Why can't legacy be put into a plugin?
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pwcc
Just not the way the leads work, I am afraid.
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GWG
pwcc: How about offering a disable option? They took it out in 3.5
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pwcc
GWG: they took it out 'cos it was considered less of a security risk at the time, possible to disable http://wpengineer.com/2484/xml-rpc-enabled-by-default-in-wordpress-3-5/
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pwcc
On proposing webmentions to core, who's blessing would be needed in here? pfefferle is most obvious, as it's his plugin.
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GWG
pwcc: They may want a different integration method.
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pwcc
GWG: yeah, maybe, tho going with a plugin /implementation is a helpful start. Responsive images started as an unblessed plugin, for example
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@bmann
I've got comments & likes from Twitter & FB flowing back to my own site! #webmention #indieweb https://twitter.com/bmann/status/540393641207144448/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/540393641207144448)
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@WebEnVert
Pour cet évènement nous prévoyons notamment : tour de table des participants et présentation de @loicmathaud avec une intro á l'#indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/540429947299725312)
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@loicmathaud
@FabienSOLER @le_Mixeur facebook ? Va falloir venir au prochain @WebEnVert avec l'intro á l'indieweb ;)
(twitter.com/_/status/540430149393862656)
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marcthiele.com
created /2015/Germany (+4222) "Created page with "= <span class="p-name summary">IndieWebCamp 2015</span> = The first IndieWebCamp in Düsseldorf, but just one of many [[IndieWebCamps]]! <div class="p-description description">...""
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marcthiele.com
edited /2015/Germany (+32) "/* RSVP */"
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marcthiele.com
created /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+5110) "Created page with "__TOC__ <div class="h-event vevent"> == [[2015/Germany|IndieWebCamp Germany 2015]] == * '''When:''' <span class="dt-start dtstart"><time class="value">2015-05-09</time> <time cla...""
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marcthiele.com
edited /2015/Germany (-21) "/* Participating */"
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marcthiele.com
created /2015/Germany/Schedule (+2702) "Created page with "== Saturday 2015-05-09 == Schedule following soon … <!-- {|border="1" style="border-collapse: collapse;" cellpadding="5" width="100%" |width="60"|Time | A: Meeting Room<br /> ...""
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marcthiele.com
edited /2015/Germany (+47) "/* Notes/Tasks */"
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marcthiele.com
edited /2015/Germany (-55) "/* Participating */"
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jkphl.is
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+520) "/* Participants */"
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jkphl.is
edited /2015/Germany/Guest_List (+0) "/* Participants */"
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@btconf
An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540526104549662720)
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gRegor`
Thinking about questo.email, as webmention picks up it might be an easier spam attack
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gRegor`
Though I guess it still requires gathering domains with known wm support
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ben_thatmust
huh questo.email?
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gRegor`
Email-to-webmention
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ben_thatmust
was just reading it, i visited it once and though it was just a domain squatter
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gRegor`
Not to be confused with queso email
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gRegor`
Going through the logs, aaronpk indicated it was fiatjaf's
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gregorlove.com
created /questo.email (+146) "stub"
(view diff)
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ben_thatmust
i don't see it as a problem really, vouch could take care of it
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ben_thatmust
its really just a person's choice to accept from there or not at that point
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gRegor`
How so? You vouch for *any* conent from questo.email?
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ben_thatmust
well vouch has the assumption that there are sites you might not want to add to your whitelist automatically
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ben_thatmust
i auto-accept from bridgy but it could be twitter spam
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ben_thatmust
i just assume that twitter has its own filtering in there. if it becomes a problem i just start to always decline twitter
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gRegor`
True.
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ben_thatmust
ideally you never auto-accept from sites with any author
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ben_thatmust
s/any/(m)any/
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Loqi
ben_thatmust meant to say: ideally you never auto-accept from sites with (m)any author
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gRegor`
As sucky as Twitter's spam threshold is, email's is worse though
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ben_thatmust
yes, but then it could also be more a complaint to questo.email to start implementing some minimum spam filtering
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gRegor`
Has anyone tried questo.email yet?
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ben_thatmust
and sadly I don't see questo being viable. Its taking all the burden of receiving and all the burden of sending, if it gets spammed heavily it will end up pretty expensive
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gRegor`
I'm about to try it. Curious to see what it sends for the author info
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snarfed
i like that we've been thinking about spam so much recently…but i wonder if it's too much
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snarfed
given that we've seen *zero* actual native wm spam so far
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aaronpk
it's a tough call
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snarfed
granted, there's lots of precedent and concrete examples in other domains (email, blog comments, etc), so we're not totally in the dark
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snarfed
maybe i just wonder whether we should be prioritizing it so highly right now
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aaronpk
we know pingback is a spam target, and webmention is analogous
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snarfed
analogous technically but (so far) not culturally or adoption wise yet
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aaronpk
stuart made a great point though and i'm curious to put it to the test
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snarfed
which imho are much more important
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snarfed
spammers target big installed bases. they don't care nearly as much about the underlying protocol, etc
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snarfed
aaronpk: which point?
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gRegor`
I'm interested in thinking/working on it, but it's not a top item for me
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aaronpk
it's not necessarily that pingback itself is a spam target, it's the fact that all wordpress blogs have the same xmlrpc.php endpoint, so you can just pick domains and send pings to that URL regardless of whether it actually exists
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gRegor`
I saw chatter about wanting to get wm into core WordPress recently, though I think that would be a looong road
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gRegor`
(chatter in here)
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snarfed
aaronpk: eh yeah. it's a point, but i don't know how much it actually matters. if every site had a unique one, you'd introduce a discovery step, which costs a bit, but it's probably not prohibitive
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aaronpk
the theory is if you run a wordpress site and rename the xmlrpc endpoint, you'd reduce most of your spam
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snarfed
esp for botnet spam where costs are externalities
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snarfed
yeah but that's a narrow view. works for individuals, not for the ecosystem
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aaronpk
anyone with a wordpress site want to test that?
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aaronpk
no that totally works for the ecosystem! that's the whole point of the expiring webmention endpoint, which could work just as well with pingback
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gRegor`
aaronpk: indieauth.com is showing a broken TLS icon for me in Chrome "verified by PositiveSSL CA 2 but does not have public audit records"
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snarfed
i'm not convinced. see my discovery/cost msgs just now P:
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aaronpk
it depends on how the spammers work
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aaronpk
stuart was saying that they often build up large lists of wordpress sites then hand that off to a botnet
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aaronpk
anyway I really want to test this. anyone with a wordpress site want to give it a shot?
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snarfed
and again, if they have to introduce a discovery step per spam comment, that is an additional small fixed cost, but i doubt that's prohibitive
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aaronpk
snarfed: you're in a great position to test it because you get so much spam pingback
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snarfed
aaronpk: i'll look at my logs right now. i suspect most of my spam comments are comment form POSTs, not xml-rpc
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aaronpk
ah right true
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snarfed
regardless, both of those are well known and fixed, so there's no big difference
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fiatjaf
well, about questo.email, I'm assuming emails are already a platform with a lot of spam-filtering technology. and that mailgun automatically filters inbound email for me, but I can actually do some kind of filtering by address, the webmention receiver also can also block/allow webmentions by individual email addresses, if he wants it, I'm assuming.
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snarfed
(ie you can also use a unique endpoint for the comment form)
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snarfed
fiatjaf++ for piggybacking on existing spam filtering solutions
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Loqi
fiatjaf has 12 karma
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snarfed
(the idea at least)
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fiatjaf
hope++ for being a substitute for knowledge
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Loqi
hope has 1 karma
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snarfed
fiatjaf: more like prioritizing. scratch itches that exist today, try to minimize guessing about itches that are too far out
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snarfed
ok, looking at WP spam vectors, comment form is the clear winner. for 11/2014, i saw avg 40k comment form POSTs per day vs just 20 (!) xmlrpc
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snarfed
(i should write that up but i'm lazy)
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aaronpk
oh wow
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snarfed
man, that's .5 qps of spam. not huge, but nontrivial
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gRegor`
aaronpk: See my note about indieauth? Just want to make sure it didn't get lost in the conversation.
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aaronpk
gRegor`: oops yeah
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aaronpk
oh it's warning about the sha-1 cert
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gRegor`
Shows up fine for me in Firefox
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gRegor`
Ah, ok
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aaronpk
that's chrome's new advanced warning thing
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aaronpk
before they start rejecting sha1
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aaronpk
wtf the ssl cert is valid til 2018? I sure don't remember getting a 5-year cert
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gRegor`
fiatjaf: What's the turnaround for questo sending wm?
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aaronpk
wow I really did get a 5-year cert
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snarfed
aaronpk: jealous! i'd love to avoid renewing all of mine every year
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aaronpk
yeah I think that was my thought too :)
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aaronpk
unfortunately I have to replace it now because sha1
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aaronpk
hopefully i won't have to touch it next til 2018
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snarfed
all this security hoopla is such a waste. we should just tell everyone to be nice. then we can get back to more useful stuff
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gRegor`
snarfed: Why can't we all just get along?? :)
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@cznweb
RT @btconf: An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540566066855149569)
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@indiewebcamp
RT @btconf: An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540564272024006656)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /Template:IndieWebCamp (+29) "add 2015/Germany"
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aaronpk
gRegor`: replaced the cert and no warning anymore!
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gRegor`
woo!
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@dissolve333
Working on all the building blocks. I'm hoping to have the first person-tag soon #indieweb(btmb.me s/5c)
(twitter.com/_/status/540568744058032128)
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@cafffm
RT @btconf: An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540569489801478145)
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@nitot
RT @btconf: An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540567341097295872)
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@ericaavey
preventive #healthcare is personal, not pharmaceutical. @WeAreCurious #ForbesRx #ownyourdata #openaccess
(twitter.com/_/status/540570146104832000)
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snarfed.org
edited /spam (+1267) "/* WordPress Spam */ akismet and snarfed.org data"
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snarfed
thanks!
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aaronpk
snarfed: I wonder if the same trick would work with wp-comments-post.php, renaming the file and updating the references to it
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snarfed
aaronpk: i'm sure it would
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snarfed
(and again, individual vs ecosystem…but individual solutions definitely count)
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aaronpk
again, that technique could be applied across all of wordpress
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@bkastl
RT @btconf: An #indiwebcamp in Düsseldorf? Yep. In May. http://indiewebcamp.com/2015/Germany #btconf #btconfDUS
(twitter.com/_/status/540570931564122112)
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fiatjaf
gRegor`: what do you mean by "turnaround"?
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gRegor`
time from email receipt to sending the wm
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gRegor`
I sent an email about an hour and a half ago
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fiatjaf
gRegor`: I don't know, less than 5min in my experience.
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fiatjaf
gRegor`: did you get a reply telling you the email was sent as webmention?
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gRegor`
No
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fiatjaf
do you email has a <a href=... linking to some post in its body?
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gRegor`
Logged in to questo and it shows up there.
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gRegor`
No, just text. "Just sending a test questo."
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fiatjaf
yeah, that's what my logs say, no urls
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gRegor`
Let me confirm my wm endpoint is shown on my homepage
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fiatjaf
no, no
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fiatjaf
it should have a url for it to be sent as a webmention
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gRegor`
Hm.
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fiatjaf
should it be sent as a webmention without a link?
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fiatjaf
I don't know.
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fiatjaf
should it be sent as a webmention to the home page?
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gRegor`
My interpretation of the questo page is "just email gregorlove.com@questo.email to send a message to them"
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aaronpk
i assumed that's what it did... an email would get sent as a home page mention
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gRegor`
should probably clarify you mean some-url, not just some-domain.com
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gRegor`
Your explanation makes sense though. Not many support home page wm
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gRegor`
So questo needs a link in the email body, correct?
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fiatjaf
or the url, as text, in the subject
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gRegor`
(Sorry, re-reading and I think I was just lacking coffee)
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gRegor`
I was focused on the some-domain part
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aaronpk
snarfed: something weird is happening with bridgy and my site. the bridgy likes have both http and https URLs for my site, but I'm not sure where they are coming from
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aaronpk
so i'mg etting two webmentions for each like
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snarfed
aaronpk: http vs https, whee
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aaronpk
i do serve from both
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aaronpk
so that's partially my fault
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fiatjaf
do you think it would be better if I just sent the webmention to the home page when no link was present, gRegor`?
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snarfed
eh shouldn't trigger this though
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snarfed
looking
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gRegor`
fiatjaf: I think it's a good idea.
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kylewm
fiatjaf: nice touch using gravatar for the email author image
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gRegor`
I was thinking of it as a shortcut for private messaging, not commenting on posts.
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gRegor`
The latter is pretty cool, though. Allow anyone to comment on a post whether they support wm or not.
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gRegor`
And no requirement for a social media account, either.
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gRegor`
fiatjaf++
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snarfed
aaronpk: ok, looking at https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/536956811505438720 , one guess is the http link comes from the text and the https one from your site's rel-syndication link
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Loqi
fiatjaf has 13 karma
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@aaronpk
@heyflock Hey guys, this looks really nice! Glad to see you developed it by scratching your own itch too. We've... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/11/24/1/donereports
(twitter.com/_/status/536956811505438720)
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aaronpk
my "see original" facebook link is to the http version
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snarfed
gRegor`: fiatjaf: agreed! love the idea of letting anyone comment, no need for wm etc. (fwiw, that's why i still have a comment form :P)
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snarfed
aaronpk: i was looking at that tweet, not an fb comment
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gRegor`
Same here, snarfed
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gRegor`
I'm migrating my site currently and now I'm wondering if I should replace the comment form with a questo mailto: link :)
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aaronpk
i'm not sure it's happening for tweets. it just happened for that facebook post though
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snarfed
gRegor`: yeah. inline comment form is probably the easiest, so i suspect the primary use cases for questo are a bit different
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snarfed
not sure of the root cause, but i should probably follow barnabywalters's lead and strip scheme before deduping
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snarfed
thanks for the nudge
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tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
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aaronpk
hm ok cool. let me know if i'm doing something wrong/weird too.
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snarfed
aaronpk: hah i should have searched gh first. https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/290
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aaronpk
nice find with the reference to that mailing list post
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fiatjaf
thank you, gRegor` and kylewm :P
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snarfed
aaronpk: "open question: which do we keep? the http one or the https one?"
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aaronpk
https I think
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snarfed
so i assume both work? i don't fetch them so i don't know
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aaronpk
i think that's a safe assumption
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snarfed
more complicated answer would be to try one, and iff it fails, try the other
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snarfed
but yeah, f that noise
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gRegor`
Nice, got questo to work
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gRegor`
I wonder if the h-card url should be mailto:email
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gRegor`
s/should/shouldn't/
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Loqi
gRegor` meant to say: I wonder if the h-card url shouldn't be mailto:email
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gRegor`
I wouldn't want to be publishing their email address
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aaronpk
if someone wants to email me, I am more than happy to publish their email address ;)
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gRegor`
lulz
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tantek
I think that's a reasonable tradeoff to them not using their own website
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tantek
also it becomes an encouragment to use your URL instead of email for commenting
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gRegor`
I don't think it's reasonable if it's not advertised in advance.
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aaronpk
add a note on the questo.email home page, since they have to read that to know how to send the email anyway
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gRegor`
Common behavior with comment forms has been the email address, if entered, isn't published
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aaronpk
this is no ordinary comment form :)
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gRegor`
Don't be evil
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gRegor`
;)
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tantek
I see it the other way - as discouraging evil sockpuppets a bit more
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tantek
accountability, transparency
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gRegor`
evil sockpuppets that don't know how to set a from: address or a throwaway email? :)
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gRegor`
It's not ordinary comment form, but it's analogous as I'm thinking about it. I have the commenter's email in either situation, which is enough "accountability" for me
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tantek
gRegor` don't be silly. every incremental barrier reduces misbehavior like that. you know that.
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tantek
don't be absolutist about it "that don't know how"
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gRegor`
I don't actually know that in this case. I guess I don't understand.
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tantek
it makes it clear that others will keep them accountable too
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gRegor`
Should local comment forms also display commenter's email addresses?
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tantek
instead of bottlenecking the burden on you
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tantek
e.g. if you're on vacation etc.
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tantek
minimize all bottlenecks on yourself
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tantek
has anyone implemented "Report Abuse" buttons on comments on their site? E.g. so *others* can click and report bad comments to you? (maybe only for users logged into your site with indieauth)
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tantek
e.g. on Instagram, anyone (logged in obv) can report a comment as abuse (red square button with white outline stop sign inside with white exclamation point inside)
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tantek
and when you tap that it asks you:
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tantek
Why are you reporting this comment?
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tantek
(and then in red text)
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tantek
"Spam or Scam"
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tantek
"Abusive Content"
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tantek
(then subtle blue text)
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tantek
"Cancel"
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tantek
ben_thatmustbeme: re: first person-tag - I think Kevin Marks posted first person-tags on his summary of notes from 15 days ago HWC
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tantek
what is a person tag?
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gRegor`
Now a report abuse tool makes sense for accountability and I'm behind that.
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Loqi
A person tag (AKA people tag) is a special kind of tag that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tag by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
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tantek
what is report abuse?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "report abuse" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=report+abuse
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aaronpk
i like the idea of a "report abuse" link
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aaronpk
of course my first thought is would it be useful if it were a separate service that you could easily drop in to your site?
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tantek.com
edited /person-tag (+266) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Kevin Marks"
(view diff)
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@ChrisAldrich
I wish that #MOOC platforms like @edXOnline @coursera were using more flexible/useful software along the lines of @withknown #indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/540594380302598144)
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gRegor`
How about an "online abuse" page, or perhaps "cyberbullying" (wikipedia's term for it), with a section on reporting abuse?
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gRegor`
on the wiki
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aaronpk
i'm thinking a little JS widget you could drop in to your page (with regular link fallback of course) which would handle showing the UI for reporting abuse, and collect the reports.
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aaronpk
then you could log in and review reports, or the service could send an HTTP request if a comment is reported more than your threshold or something
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tantek
gRegor' that sounds more conceptual than feature
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tantek
I specifically asked about "report abuse" because that's a *feature* in many (most?) social network silos
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tantek
documenting a real world feature like that is more factual and doesn't need to wade into long handwringing conceptual discussions
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aaronpk
realworldfeatures++
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Loqi
realworldfeatures has 1 karma
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tantek
gRegor-hwc: because the backtick won't autocmplete while this nickname is in the channel
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gRegor`
Heh
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gRegor`
kicks gRegor-hwc
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aaronpk
oops is that my fault?
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gRegor`
I only thought of an "online abuse" page because it seems the next 'what is' question after 'what is report abuse?' :)
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gRegor`
Thought there might be some use in documenting types of online abuse. Examples are all over, though.
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gRegor`
Those web chat nicknames stick around forever, eh? That was from 4 weeks ago
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aaronpk
there's some websocket event i'm not catching
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tantek.com
edited /exercise (+24) "/* See Also */ analytics"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /exercise (+72) "disambig analytics at top since people call them metrics as well"
(view diff)
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@martinlindner
@FalkJan wer fördert das indieweb nach niedergang von mozilla & wikipedia? wo ist regionale förderung für kmu-übergang in die web-ökonomie?
(twitter.com/_/status/540609372003766273)
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tantek
tommorris: could you add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/Persona
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tommorris
Will do shortly. Working. ;)
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tantek
thanks :)
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tantek
what is questo?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "questo" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=questo
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tantek.com
created /report_abuse (+209) "stub"
(view diff)
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pwcc
@aaronpk: willing to give renaming the WP xmlrpc endpoint if you have no takers. Worth noting most of my spam is via comment form.
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aaronpk
pwcc: sweet. yeah if your stats are like snarfed's then there isn't actually much pingback spam happening
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aaronpk
I don't know what it would take, but would also be interesting to see if you could do the same with the comment endpoint
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GWG
pwcc: I would suggest you see if it can be done as part of a plugin. Changing core is always a bad idea
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pwcc
was just checking that. It's a hard coded file in core but there must be a way to rewrite in the htaccess.
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GWG
pwcc: What about those of us who use Nginx?
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GWG
pwcc: It may have to be two parts. .htaccess or Nginx configuration notes, plus a plugin to change the <link>
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aaronparecki.com
edited /report_abuse (+164) "add twitter and instagram examples"
(view diff)
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pwcc
GWG: y, I'll take a look at that.
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tantek
oh man - just as I was writing up Instagram abuse heh
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GWG
pwcc: Since I joined IWC, I've been very much about WordPress standards.
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tantek
braces himself for merge conflicts
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aaronpk
hah oops
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aaronpk
mine are small edits
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tantek
aaronpk - no, it's awesome, thank you!
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tantek
it's a good problem to have :)
#
tantek
(of course I was being too detail oriented ;) )
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pwcc
GWG: cool, noob to the irc channel but been lurking in the logs for a while. Isn't a filter to change the comment form URL but could be hacked with the WP comment_form_top action.
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GWG
I don't think it is the top action...
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GWG
pwcc: Either way, you can shut off the comment form, but most bots don't use it
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aaronpk
wait how do bots submit comments then?
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GWG
aaronpk: Some do. But many just hook directly, if they know it is a WordPress installation
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GWG
The varied methods are an issue
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aaronpk
what do you mean "hook directly"?
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aaronpk
interesting. one of my wordpress sites curently has 650 spam pingbacks and 2000 spam comments
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GWG
aaronpk: They try to submit the form data without the form.
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pwcc
@aaronpk they go direct to the submission script.
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aaronpk
oh yeah of course. that's what we're talking about. but need to update the comment form to point to the new comment php file
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pwcc
*snap(
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pwcc
GWG, htaccess/nginx rules can be set up the return a 403 forbidden on accessing wp-comments-post.php
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GWG
pwcc: Exactly.
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GWG
I just want to try to find a way that doesn't break every time you update WordPress
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pwcc
found a comment/support request re: using nonces too - is concern re caching. This, too, applies to expriging end points in the web mention plugin..
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aaronpk
i just hacked up a wordpress install to change the comment endpoint
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aaronpk
the spam bots already found the new endpoint!
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GWG
aaronpk: How?
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aaronpk
I guess they fetched the page and found the form!
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GWG
aaronpk: As I said, they do both
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GWG
snarfed's solution is to render the form in javascript
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snarfed
GWG: it is?!
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GWG
snarfed: Isn't that what that plugin you use does?
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snarfed
oh, i see, no. in the form submit handler, it checks something the client has to do in JS
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snarfed
ducks all followup questions :P
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GWG
You said used javascript. I bookmarked it. My mistake
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GWG
Either way, rendering in javascript would reduce more bots than not
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GWG
It's like an arms race
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pwcc
In terms of webmentions, is the protocol to check the endpoint each time or to cache?
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aaronpk
you need to discover the endpoint each time
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tommorris
mutters something about not having comments because of signal:noise ratio.
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snarfed
is saddened by this
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snarfed
is saddened by the rediscovery, not by tommorris's muttering :P
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tommorris
I spent this evening getting frustrated by both WordPress and Squarespace.
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tommorris
I really wish there was a sane and acceptable normal-person-friendly and reasonably customisable website-as-a-service offering for artists, designers and other image-based creatives. :)
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tantek
tommorris: I thought that was squarespace. Interested in hearing about specific frustrations.
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tommorris
Wordpress.com really doesn't fit that well for artists.
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tommorris
Squarespace is marginally better but it is too Ajaxy for my liking - hash URLs for content ffs.
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tommorris
the Gallery page types on Squarespace are very limited and not very customisable.
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tantek
ah - architectrual problems rather than UI problems
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pwcc
rediscovery allows for use of nonces. I can see implementers ignoring this and cahcning though. By which I mean I would :)
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tommorris
so if your art fits within what Squarespace works for, awesome. If not... sucks to be you.
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tommorris
Squarespace is a better fit and because it sucks less than anything else I've tried, it's my current recommendation to non-technical folk but it is expensive and a long way from my dream of a great experience.
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tantek
what is squarespace?
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Loqi
Squarespace is a content hosting service (paid) that provides services such as blogging and domain hosting https://indiewebcamp.com/Squarespace
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tantek
I met the CEO at Brooklyn Beta and he was very pro on automatically adding microformats for people etc.
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tantek
He's likely amenable to other fixes too
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snarfed
(pwcc: yup, we've discussed it a few times. bridgy does the same endpoint caching, intentionally, and i'd rather not change that)
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GWG
pwcc: You are't on the IRC People list, are you? I was going to look up your site
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tantek.com
edited /report_abuse (+4489) "add IndieWeb Examples (none), Silo Examples (Instagram), See Also"
(view diff)
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tantek
heh weird merge effect
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tantek
or rather, auto-merge fail!
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tantek
(duplicated content etc.)
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tantek.com
edited /report_abuse (-150) "rm dup content that I'd incorporated into my previous edit"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /report_abuse (-1) "/* Instagram User */ -a"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
is caught up
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pwcc
GWG, I am not. I'll edit /IRC-people
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GWG
pwcc: Your site is?
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pwcc
GWG, to answer your question - peterwilson.cc
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tantek
aaronpk, gRegor` re: Instagram as an example of "Report Abuse" - I kind of went a little nuts and documented nearly their entire report abuse feature across users/photos/comments: http://indiewebcamp.com/report_abuse#Instagram
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tantek
so that's what I'm talking about
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aaronpk
that is thorough
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tantek
yeah I tend to deep dive like that :/
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GWG
pwcc: What are your top interests in working on in the Indieweb space with WordPress? As that is my area of interest?
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tantek
wanted to have at least one documented silo example like that so others could try to do the same for other silos
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tantek.com
edited /report_abuse (+4) "/* Twitter */ linky"
(view diff)
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pwcc
GWG I worked in WP client services for years & am active in Melbourne community. Jeremy Keith got me interested in indieweb,
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KartikPrabhu
oh man weird bridgy problem!
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tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+33) "/* Features */ report abuse"
(view diff)
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: yeah?
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KartikPrabhu
I think now POSSE-post-discovery thinks that those syndication links are for the article. see: https://www.brid.gy/googleplus/117114060857732496623
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KartikPrabhu
first two responses
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tommorris.org
edited /Persona (+156) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ adding myself"
(view diff)
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peterwilson.cc
edited /IRC_People (+55) "added pwcc"
(view diff)
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tommorris.org
edited /Squarespace (+581) "adding some issues I've found with Squarespace. I'm sure I'll find some more soon."
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /Instagram (+327) "Features section with a rough start"
(view diff)
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snarfed
!tell KartikPrabhu yup, sounds right. that's a pretty unusual structure. not sure how to handle it, but kylewm and i could definitely listen or accept a PR!
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris
aaronpk: that's awesome. :)
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tantek.com
edited /Instagram (-1) "move TOC below photo"
(view diff)
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: maybe only use the u-syndication links that are the properties of the first-h-entry
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: snarfed left you a message 1 minute ago: yup, sounds right. that's a pretty unusual structure. not sure how to handle it, but kylewm and i could definitely listen or accept a PR!
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tantek
tommorris: that manifest is a joke because it itself is not an single-page-site / app :P
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tantek
s/is not an/is not on a
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: tommorris: that manifest is a joke because it itself is not on a single-page-site / app :P
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tantek
aaronpk - wow
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tantek
"NOPE. You don't get to be creative professional today, you get to be a tired diplomat."
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KartikPrabhu
really! SPI!!
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tantek
genius
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tantek
what is spi?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "spi" yet. Would you like to create it? https://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=spi
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KartikPrabhu
question if I embed my note into my article should the embed be marked as h-cite?
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GWG
pwcc: I am a neophyte in development. But I do a few indieweb-themed plugins.
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GWG
pwcc: That and file issues for Indieweb developers
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GWG
Like making aaronpk upgrade his ruby version.
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GWG
But I think that affected more than me
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KevinMarks
!tell Tantek I added person tag generation to noterlive.com, so anyone who uses that will get them too
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: spi = single page interface thingie. that manifesto
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: indeed - perhaps start a stub?
#
tantek
and link to /antipattern ?
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 38 seconds ago: I added person tag generation to noterlive.com, so anyone who uses that will get them too
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tantek
KevinMarks: perhaps add that to /person-tag#Tools ?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: the question becomes what does reportabuse.club do with the reports?
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aaronpk
that was part of the "continue"
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KartikPrabhu
i tink the usefulness of this depends on that part
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aaronpk
well if you're using the script tag, it could hide the comment for that user by cookie-ing them
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snarfed
i'm going to regret this…but that manifesto does make a bit more sense if you limit it to wholly private webapps, e.g. gmail.
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aaronpk
also it could ping the website which could then decide what to do with the report (deleting the comment, or hiding it for everyone, etc)
#
GWG
Is there a standard endpoint for abuse reports?
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: why make a central cite for abuse reports? why not have people handle it themselves?
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aaronpk
the idea would be to encourage people to handle it themselves, but sometimes building that much UI stuff is just annoying
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GWG
Like webmention, couldn't there be a format that sites could advise they receive reports in?
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tantek
snarfed - disagreed - even for private web "apps", permalinking specific things (like a particular email message in gmail) is useful!
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KartikPrabhu
agreed with tantek
#
KartikPrabhu
I sometimes want to go directly to a particular gmail folder and I can't remember what horrid internal url scheme they have
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tantek
GWG, no idea - that's why we start with documenting existing examples first
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snarfed
tantek: KartikPrabhu: you don't have to forego permalinks. he discusses that in the manifesto. gmail has had them per email for a long time
#
tantek
snarfed, OTOH - games may be an exception to the SPI-antipattern
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snarfed
granted, they have fragments, but for the end user use case - link to a specific email - it works fine
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tantek
snarfed - not to folders for example
#
tantek
and only "threads" - specific emails don't have permalinks
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: so then, it seems SPI is about plumbing. And replacing markup by programming
#
snarfed
tantek: if by folder you mean label, those have permalinks too. e.g. https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#spam
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aaronpk
so ReportAbuse club would provide all the UI and interaction, but would result in sending report pings to your website where you'd do whatever you want with the info.
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snarfed
more importantly though, we're now discussing missing gmail features. i'll happily concede those, but they don't affect the larger point that SPI may be appropriate for private webapps
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KartikPrabhu
so like webmention.io for abuse reports?
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tantek
snarfed - oh neat - ok. then we're just debating how good the /URL_design is - which is s different debate
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: in a sense, maybe
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aaronpk
and it could also provide a simple UI for reviewing reports it's collected, in case you don't want it to ping your website
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snarfed
right. *ideally*, ajax vs page loads don't affect UX. but *in the real world*, ajax is often faster and feels more seamless. hence my point.
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tantek
snarfed - when a SPI starts updating history and URL location with specific "permalinks" for states - it becomes more like progressive enhancement than actual SPI.
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KevinMarks
The advantage akismet has is that it gets all the spam reports from WordPress
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tantek
e.g. facebook.com works like that
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snarfed
tantek: definitely! and he specifically calls out exactly those features
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KartikPrabhu
I am still inclined to have at least a few indie implementations before a common site like that aaronpk
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KevinMarks
So there is an advantage in centralising some kinds of abuse reporting
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: right. so what is the point?
#
tantek
KevinMarks: meh. Akismet is a giant fail for me.
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aaronpk
if I build a "report abuse" feature for my site, I will build it as a separate component like that, and anyone can use it if they want :)
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tantek
still see lots of stuff I have to moderate, and when I try to post a reasoned comment with citations, I get rejected
#
KartikPrabhu
if you can replicate everything that normal pages do by writing this long list of codes to do it... @snarfed
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aaronpk
the idea is not for this service to own the abuse reports, just to be a proxy service and provide the UI for it
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tantek
I think centralized report abuse is problematic because of *both* the burden it puts on that centralized party, and the power it grants them
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pwcc
GWG: good to meet you, thatnls for been so welcoming.
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: see my ideal vs real world msg. :P in general, *in practice*, good ajax webapps often feel faster and more responsive, which is important for web*apps*, as opposed to just pages
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tantek
aaronpk - anyway, seems easier to build it first as a baked in feature before making a "proxy"
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GWG
pwcc: Any time
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aaronpk
nah cause then I have to build it twice. like my note posting UI.
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tantek
snarfed - then I have yet to see "good ajax webapps" except maybe fb.com - as all the rest seem *slower* than just page loading
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: so no progressive enhancement then...
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tantek
snarfed - my web browsing experience is so much faster with NoScript
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KevinMarks
Is an abuse report a different kind of webmention?
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: of course, SPI requires JS
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snarfed
tantek: sure! but i expect the majority of that is pages, not apps
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tantek
because frankly, web devs typically don't know how to do fast network loading / processing code (what you need for "good ajax")
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yes. so SPI manifest seems to be saying "forget all this HTML, CSS stuff. Lets all do JS"
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: I don't think it really has anything to do with webmention
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tantek
snarfed - nah, they're "apps"
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aaronpk
if the report lived at a URL of its own then mayyybe
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tantek
KevinMarks: it could be
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tantek
I've also thought about how an "untagging" could be a type of webmention too
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tantek
e.g. if you want to untag yourself from a post that tags you
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snarfed
for truly complex apps - e.g. gmail, feed readers, maybe fb/twitter - i'd contend that average programmers using common tools will deliver a somewhat faster-feeling UX with ajax than with page loads
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tantek
especially a post that tags you via a 3rd party person-tag!
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GWG
If we all keep our abuse reports retrievable from a URL that can be discovered on our site...
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tantek
GWG - so far there is no prior work for report abuse permalinks
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tantek
e.g. no sign of them in FB all activities feed
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tantek
but don't let that stop you
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: snarfed: could you point me to the code that bridgy uses to find u-syndication links? I am not familiar with bridgy code organisation
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GWG
tantek: I'm theorizing. Not an itch for me right now
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: thanks. will see what can be done for that error i pointed out
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tantek
GWG, cool. doing distributed "abuse report" posts that are verifiable could be quite useful. of course you'd have to use rel-nofollow to link to the items of abuse, which is yucky too.
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tantek
as someone that reports abuse, I'd prefer *not* to provide any more discoverability to the abusive items
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: thanks! might be worth discussing w/kylewm first, and/or making a minimal example test case. it's such an unusual structure that i'd be a bit worried about it affecting other behavior
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KevinMarks
Hm. Pointing out abuse in-channel is a report worth a permalink
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: yes. it has an h-entry in a h-entry
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: rel-syndication is scoped to the page
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: sorry I'm just catching up
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KartikPrabhu
ehhh pooh
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KartikPrabhu
it has rel!
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KartikPrabhu
now I want to ditch all the rel things
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snarfed
oh snap!
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kylewm
I don't understand what I'm looking at in the context of your article
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yes. the embedded styling needs to be better. this is the first time i have done it
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm++ good catch on the rel
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Loqi
kylewm has 87 karma
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GWG
tantek: While I might not be ready to build it, I like brainstorming. But, I'm pondering how someone wanting to gather abuse reports would trust the source.
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KartikPrabhu
GWG: like vouch :P
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GWG
KartikPrabhu: Vouch for abuse
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KartikPrabhu
vouch can be used as a general mechanism for social graph based trust
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KartikPrabhu
just said social graph!