#indiewebcamp 2014-11-14

2014-11-14 UTC
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tantek
kylewm - the problem is in your use of "the" (no seriously). It is either *your* lightsaber, or *a* lightsaber.
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KartikPrabhu
<click> <buzzzzzzzzz>
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tantek
implied in the SW mythology about lightsabers is that you have *only* one, that you are expected to have *built* it *yourself*, and that you *depend* on it as an extension of your *self*.
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KartikPrabhu
<whoooom> <whooooooom>
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KartikPrabhu
should stop
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: are you making lightsaber sounds?
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bret
sidenote... checking out brianloveswords's super minimal but super awesome selfdogfooding POSSE site http://bjb.io
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KartikPrabhu
perceptive you are - Lord Varys
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tantek
in RoJ, Luke is selfdogfooding his own lightsaber that he made. however in Ep1, Anakin is merely dogfooding C3P0, which he built to also help his mom. C3P0 is not part of Anakin. No aspect of identity/self.
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kylewm
hahaha
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tantek
wonders if he needs to add that example to the wiki
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kylewm
so let's call it "lightsabering"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: kylewm: maybe we should avoid fandom references on the wiki
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bret
lightsabering your own website?
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KartikPrabhu
except on personal project pages like Red Wind
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+484) "attempt to make it more clear how selfdogfooding is above and beyond just dogfooding (just using your code on some site somewhere)"
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tantek.com
edited /dogfood (+17) "clarify selfdogfood is a principle"
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tantek
a-ha I see gRegor` has already mentioned lightsaber on /selfdogfood. So be it.
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+581) "/* Discussion */ expand upon gRegor's discussion example of "Lightsaber""
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+4) "/* key components */ -"
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KartikPrabhu
in the same vein... are people who use indieweb code such as Known but not actively code it not follow the indieweb selfdogfood principle?
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+50) "/* key components */ link WP Philosophy of Self"
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tantek.com
edited /creator (+18) "/* See also */ selfdogfood"
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tantek.com
edited /selfdogfood (+45) "/* key components */ link creator"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: partially correct. they are not selfdogfooding Known, unless they actively *create* part of it (code is just one aspect - see /creator )
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tantek
However, there may be other things on their personal site that they create, in which case they are selfdogfooding those creations
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KartikPrabhu
so selfdogfooding is for code creators not artists and writer who would use indieweb code
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: no see /creator
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tantek
code is just one aspect
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gRegor`
Ooh, glad to see build your own lightsaber getting attention :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: per http://indiewebcamp.com/creator#Creator it seems just writing on your KNown instance does not count. You have to code, make UI.UX or visual designs
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tantek
for example, I am selfdogfooding /Falcon as sole creator, and I'm even selfdogfooding the tmhOAuth library I use for relmeauth as a *partial* *fractional* contributor
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tantek
correct, just "writing" is not selfdogfooding. unless perhaps you're a philosopher and your website is actually demonstrating the very philosophy you write about
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tantek
if you wrote a recipe for dogfood, and then cooked it yourself, and ate it regularly, you would be selfdogfooding that writing
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KartikPrabhu
not just philosophers but if a photographer uses known to publish their photos, it does not count as a complete indieweb principle satisfaction
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tantek
but most writing is not recipes for something else. most writing does not "build" anything.
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KartikPrabhu
they are not contributing visual design to the site
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: right, perhaps more generally, merely publishing is not dogfooding
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tantek
you have to be creating some aspect of a *tool* which you then *use*
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tantek
as a writer, if you invent new words, and use them as part of your personal identity on your website, you could be selfdogfooding those words
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KartikPrabhu
yeah. I suppose as long as the goal is to own their own photos/writing I suppose it doesn't matter if they are technically selfdogfooding or not
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tantek
ownyourdata is different from selfdogfooding
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tantek
selfdogfooding is a filter we applies to creators
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tantek
ownyourdata is something everyone should do
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KartikPrabhu
yup. got it :)
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kylewm
whoa. selfdogfooding writing dogfood recipes. tantek you have gone too far!
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gRegor`
Interesting. Until now I think I considered people publishing on their own site as selfdogfooding. Thanks for the clarification.
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gRegor`
Yo dawg, we heard you like dogfood . . .
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kylewm
well hang on now, andicascadesf was chided yesterday for not selfdogfooding her suggestion to blog every day for a month
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gRegor`
Ooh
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tantek
that's right
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tantek
because "blog every day for a month" is essentially a script that human executes. it's code.
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: chided is a strong word
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tantek
she wanted others to run that code, but she wasn't running it herself (or so it seemed)
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gRegor`
So yeah, I think that's a stretch.
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tantek
because she wasn't running it herself, on her own personal site, she was not selfdogfooding it
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: saying"lets all blog once a day" is different from "join me and blog every day"
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tantek
which is different from "hey everybody, *you* should blog once a day"
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gRegor`
Gotta head out, though. Will catch up later.
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tantek
and: "*I'm" blogging once a day. You should too"
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: you're right, chided was too strong. I cannot think of a better synonym atm
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tantek
questioned
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KartikPrabhu
me thinks the whole "blog every day" thing is what turned people off blogging in the first place. Not everyone can come up with stuff to write everyday
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KartikPrabhu
blog = web-log is not good
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: "let's all blog every day" vs. "join me and blog every day", which one of those is what?
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kylewm
she said "I'd love to lead a..."
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KartikPrabhu
the first is a suggestion the second would be selfdogfooding
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: I am not de-constructing the exact words. maybe I am building a strawman who knows :P
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gRegor`
writing a blog post at random times (as the fancy hits you) is just publishing, not selfdogfooding, but setting up a schedule makes it selfdogfooding?
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tantek
gRegor`: depends, if your "setting up a schedule" is programmatic, and you share that code, and do it, you could be said to be selfdogfooding *just that code*
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gRegor`
is lost
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gRegor`
I don't think anyone that "blogs every day" is writing code for it.
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kylewm
I can't tell if tantek is being serious
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tantek
gRegor`: I think you're missing the key aspect that certain subsets of English statements can be interpreted as code that humans execute.
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kylewm
between dogfood-ception and the definition if "the"
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tantek
recipes are the most common example of this
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KartikPrabhu
tantek does not kid
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kylewm
I'm inclined to think no
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gRegor`
Wait, is this evil tantek? jk
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gRegor`
Ok, *actually* heading out now
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: could you take a crack at documenting the clarifications above where you said "yup. got it " as FAQs on /selfdogfood ?
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tantek
since clearly you had questions, and they eventually got answered.
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KartikPrabhu
will do. keeping tab open as reminder
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tantek
looks like there's already an FAQ section: http://indiewebcamp.com/selfdogfood#FAQ
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kylewm
I feel like half of this page is tongue-in-cheek
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kylewm
(which is fine)
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kylewm
tantek++ for the C3P0/lightsaber distinction
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Loqi
tantek has 121 karma
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kylewm
aaronpk: have you looked into server sent events more? it seems like having a traditional http server + a realtime server communicating over redis (i.e. the way you have done real time comments so far) is way more common than i knew
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aaronpk
Yeah I have a prototype of my realtime comments mechanism using SSE now
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aaronpk
Still uses redis
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kylewm
all in the same php application though?
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aaronpk
I like that it removed one of the moving parts, that I don't have to have a separate app running
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aaronpk
Yeah because SSE is really simple. It's basically just a way for the server to keep a connection open and send partial responses
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kylewm
how will you handle the thread problem though?
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aaronpk
We used to do this with long polling, except with long poking the client would have to make a new connection each time you sent an event
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aaronpk
I dunno, same way you handle any type of load
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kylewm
from the documentaiton, I'm having a little trouble differentiating what is necessary and what's necessary at scale
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kylewm
it's not load that i'm worried about though...it's holding open those threads
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kylewm
i guess it would be the same issue with long polling?
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kylewm
and possibly i just don't know how web servers work
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aaronpk
So Apache will make a new OS thread for each request. I think with nginx that is not the case
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kylewm
but like right now my uWSGI application has 4 processes and 2 threads each... so if 8 people have the site open at the same time, it would be completely locked down
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aaronpk
Are you sure? cause node apps don't have that problem
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kylewm
cause node's all asynchronous, right?
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kylewm
that's like the point of it
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kylewm
but no I'm definitely not sure
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kylewm
and I'm also thinking that nginx/apache shouldn't matter, since they are just proxying to the application...
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aaronpk
Apache can either run the php code itself or proxy to a back end php server
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kylewm
I thought you were an nginx?
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aaronpk
I have been switching to nginx but still have apache in places
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kylewm
if you are using php-fpm, I think it's the same kind of thing.. some number of worker processes and threads
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kylewm
so Armin (the Flask guy) has this long thing about realtime http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2012/8/5/stateless-and-proud/
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kylewm
and I do not understand it at all
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kylewm
he recommends Flask + redis + a realtime server
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kylewm
and also says bad stuff about Tornado (the Python equiv of node.js)
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kylewm
but I am like "you just recommended a realtime server"
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pdurbin
"realtime is pushing, non realtime is polling"
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aaronpk
that's an interesting article
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aaronpk
I think he's basically saying the thing that is keeping persistent connections open should not be your main web app
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aaronpk
also is not unique to the python land
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aaronpk
also that's basically exactly how I've described realtime comments here http://webmention.io/#streaming-api
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aaronpk
(where webmention.io is providing the component that "maintains the standing connections and subscribes to redis")
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kylewm
I mean I think it's exactly how you've implemented them too
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kylewm
where node.js subscribes to redis and holds up the persistent connections
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kylewm
open*
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aaronpk
so my new implementation of SSE using the same PHP app is explicitly moving away from the direction he's describing in that article
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aaronpk
in favor of a simpler infrastructure
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kylewm
does it make sense why i'm worried that will make you very easy to DoS?
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aaronpk
I think there's a way to do it with nginx+php-fpm that won't be a problem
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aaronpk
apache + mod_php yes very easy to DOS
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kylewm
ok cool
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kylewm
when you figure it out let me know :)
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pdurbin
aaronpk: simpler in what way?
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aaronpk
can run using the same code base and doesn't require running a separate server process
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pdurbin
hmm. ok. (I'm still reading the article.)
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aaronpk
my current architecture requires running this node.js app (or could easily be written in ruby or python) as a totally separate thing from whatever web server you're running (nginx+php, nginx+ruby, python whatever)
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aaronpk
that means an additional process on the web server as well as listening on a different port. and if you're SSL, then you have to do SSL termination in both places.
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bret
kylewm: yeah the philosophy of node is that everything that blocks should be async. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztspvPYybIY is pretty good at explaining the original line of thought. def worth a watch
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bret
prioritizing the completion of a specific task to as close as its original calling time tends to result in increased overall concurrency, despite only a single thing happening at any one given time
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@airbornesurfer
The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681
(twitter.com/_/status/533121849367199744)
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@itknowingness
RT @airbornesurfer: The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681
(twitter.com/_/status/533121851619573761)
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bret
(one thing at a time due to the single threaded event loop)
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@GoGenericGirl
RT @airbornesurfer: The Creepy New Wave Of The #Internet #IndieWeb #InternetOfThings #Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681
(twitter.com/_/status/533124190027513857)
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tylergillies__
you guys see http://ipfs.io/ ?
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bret
tylergillies__: no I haven't! but it looks neato
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bret
lets cross our fingers something cool comes out of that effort.
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tylergillies__
the next big innnovation is where you're going to be able to host a website on the general 'internet' and not need an entire server
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bret
yeah that's kind of a big dream for a lot of people it seems.... myself included
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bret
(although I've settled on things like gh-pages and neocites at the moment)
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tylergillies__
gh-pages is nice
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tylergillies__
http://getlittlebird <== gh-pages + jeykyll
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bret
the large file problem is still totally unsolved ime
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tylergillies__
er
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bret
tylergillies__: is that your site?
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tylergillies__
yep
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bret
nice. im a big fan of the fork n go/one click deploy model
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tylergillies__
yeah, it used to be on wordpress but we kept getting hacked
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tylergillies__
so i copy pasted the html to jekyll and went from there
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bret
I'm putting together a indieweb gh-pages boiler plate site right now
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bret
still trying to figure out how to use the Jekyll data folder as a centralized data store for things like people data and stuff
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bret
but the idea is to pair it with something like micropub that works with static sites in git repos https://github.com/bcomnes/gitpub
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bret
if http://ipfs.io/ can accept a git push with static site content, all of this could be hosted on something like that instead of gh-pages
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bret
you also have, of course, camlistore https://camlistore.org/ and https://git-annex.branchable.com/ which are somewhat of a mix of what http://ipfs.io/ sounds like its trying to do, but I haven't seen a realistic personal website hosted out of either yet
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tylergillies__
bret: i sent you a few bucks worth of bitcoin :)
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bret
tylergillies++
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Loqi
tylergillies has 37 karma
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tylergillies__
camilstore is pretty much a store all the things model right?
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bret
camlistore is an imutible datastore.... so everything you put in is saved to disk and deltas are layered on top as the data changes... everything you put in can theoretically come back out at some point
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bret
the idea is versioning for large files
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bret
implications are huge, but it assumes unlimited storage.... which is fairly realistic for google employees
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@iothingsbot
The Creepy New Wave Of The Internet IndieWeb Internet Of Things Spying http://airbornesurfer.com/?p=3681
(twitter.com/_/status/533131202488983552)
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bret
at home, maintain large raids tends to be a pain in the kneck
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bret
maintaining*
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bret
it also handles things like http file tranmissions and file chunking
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bret
and has modeling layers on top of the data store so think gmail labels instead of folders
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bret
pretty neat, but I haven't been able to find a way to really make it work for me yet. its a huge project and is only a few years in
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bret
git-annex has the best distribution models just check out this remote add option menu: http://bret.io/2014/08/28/git-annex/
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bret
ime its confusing and slow to use though
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bret
very cool, im gonna read this paper
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bret
tylergillies__: if you wanna play around with p2p stuff, IWC does p2p backups of the wiki data: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/backup
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bret
i guess maybe we should also offer a syncthing option
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bret
but I dont even know how that does peering
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tylergillies__
BTSync is pretty cool
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kylewm
ahem, Pulse
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tylergillies__
pulse?
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kylewm
SyncThing has been rebranded Pulse
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tylergillies__
ah
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KartikPrabhu
what is btsync?
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Loqi
Bittorrent Sync is a proprietary Dropbox replacement/alternative http://indiewebcamp.com/btsync
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KartikPrabhu
what is syncthing?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "syncthing" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=syncthing
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bret
new personal policy... not writing about things I dont use
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bret
actually no, whats the point. ill write about whatever i feel like
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KartikPrabhu
there you go!
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KartikPrabhu
i did that because I did not understand anything in that discussion
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tylergillies__
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 80 karma
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kylewm
tylergillies__: what'd I do?
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tylergillies__
pulse link i forgot that existed. now running
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kylewm
oh :)
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tylergillies__
I'm a sucker for crypto things: http://screencast.com/t/g2ocOBz9f9w
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kylewm
you have lots of Clojure tabs open
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tylergillies__
That page is made in clojurescript
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kylewm
clojure is neat
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tylergillies__
im using core.async which is essentially golang goroutines in javascript
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KartikPrabhu
what is clojure?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "clojure" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=clojure
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tylergillies__
i have a state function that fires off an update on all the dom elements on button click
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tylergillies__
KartikPrabhu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clojure
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KartikPrabhu
hmmm stopped reading at "runs on JVM"
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kylewm
VM snobbery!
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tylergillies__
JVM is the best platform in the world
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tylergillies__
literally billions of dollars went into making it battle ready
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bret
just noticed, the bitcoins i got from the bt faucet 2 years ago magically turned into 8 USD
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tylergillies__
nice
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tylergillies__
i found a whole bitcoin in one of my random backups
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tylergillies__
before the crash so it was like 700 bucks
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tantek
joins to see a bunch of plumbing discussions
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bear
looks like I missed the "if you run a static site, how do you do ..." discussion above
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tantek
what is a static site?
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tantek
what is a bitcoin?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "bitcoin" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=bitcoin
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tantek
welcome tylergillies - add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people !
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kylewm
bear: do you know about server push stuff in python? having a hard time figuring out how to do it without going all in on gevent or Tornado
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tantek
what is gevent?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "gevent" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=gevent
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tantek
what is Tornado?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "Tornado" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Tornado
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bear
I may need some more information
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bear
is the python app on the server that is going to do the push to a web client? another client?
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tylergillies__
tantek: is there a dns based indie auth protocol? My main site has a pretty strict url structure and redirects are setup using docker nginx template regex lines so I'd rather not mess with it
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tantek
can you not edit your home page markup?
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tantek
what is your main site?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "your main site" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=your+main+site
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tylergillies__
http://pdx.wesbite
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kylewm
bear: just trying to recreate aaronpk's "realtime comments", but without running two separate server processes
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kylewm
so the server will be pushing a (very) occasional event up to the client
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tylergillies__
oops
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tylergillies__
http://pdx.website
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bear
I would use python websockets behind nginx for that
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tantek
tylergillies__: that looks like a group forum - not a personal site
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tylergillies__
tantek: its the only site i have on the internets heh
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bear
tornado, gevent and all of those really just implement long polling
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tantek
do you not have a personal site tylergillies__ ?
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tylergillies__
nope :(
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tylergillies__
i have a domain
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tantek
you have a personal domain?
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tantek
that sounds familiar :)
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kylewm
tylergillies__: I thought you were running Known
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tylergillies__
no website though
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tylergillies__
i was
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tylergillies__
but that computer got formatted
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tylergillies__
so now its not
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bear
kylewm - the choice of gevent or tornado (or even wsgi) will depend on what you have running now server side
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kylewm
bear: OK, I am discouraged bc gevent has not been ported Py3 yet. but perhaps ws4py and asyncio can work
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bear
it works well
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tantek
tylergillies__: how about a setting up a simple static site with github pages that you can then use your domain with? http://indiewebcamp.com/GitHub#GitHub_Pages
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tylergillies__
im surprised theres no indie auth protocol where you just add a TXT record or something
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tylergillies__
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 122 karma
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tylergillies__
good call
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bear
kylewm - for something simple I would run CherryPy under Python v3
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KartikPrabhu
tylergillies__: too many protocols
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tantek
tylergillies__: configuring DNS is painful enough for most people, nevermind figuring out how each DNS provider has their own UI for editing TXT records etc.
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kylewm
bear: ahh, this is the first Im hearing about CherryPy. need to read up. thanks!!
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KartikPrabhu
for instance how would you link to the TXT file? tylergillies__
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tantek
what is CherryPy?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "CherryPy" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=CherryPy
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bear
kylewm yvw
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tylergillies__
its not a file
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tylergillies__
TXT is a dns record type
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bear
what is wsgi
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: pretty sure he means a TXT *record* associated with your DNS
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kylewm
ha DNS TXT records is interesting
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tylergillies__
my pgp key is in my dns
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: tylergillies__ oh ok I don't know what that means so <shrug>
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kylewm
is glad he still has Loqi muted, with all the what is'ing going on
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tylergillies__
lol
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tantek
tylergillies__: ^^^ that's why there's no indie auth protocol where you just add a TXT record or something
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tylergillies__
tantek: righto
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bear
TXT record in DNS is the same IMO as having a well known url for discovery - it just avoids the web server but that is also it's weakness because it's not protected by SSL
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tylergillies__
SSL bit is a good point
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tantek
so both a usability issue, *and* a security issue
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tantek
ok that's FAQ time
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bear
now having a TXT record to aid in discovery may be useful, but IMO that is much better served by having microformat h-card at your root domain
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: soory about not adding to FAQ about /selfdogfood busy with paper readings
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KartikPrabhu
will attempt tomorrow morning
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tantek
so many "why not"s in the IndieAuth FAQ
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tantek
thanks KartikPrabhu - I think it's quite important to capture such nuances / details / clarifications about /selfdogfood
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bear.im
created /cherrypy (+145) "Created page with "'''<dfn>CherryPy</dfn>''' is a minimalist Python Web Framework. [http://www.cherrypy.org/ CherryPy] == See also == * [[static-site]] * [[wsgi]]""
(view diff)
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bear.im
edited /IndieAuth (+589) "first pass at capturing two points about why not DNS TXT"
(view diff)
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tylergillies__
hrm
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tylergillies__
indieauth.com isn't verifying my site :(
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tylergillies__
hey it worked
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tylergillies__
wooo
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tylergillies__
meh failed on second part
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tylergillies.club
edited /IRC_People (+65) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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tylergillies.club
created /User:Tylergillies.club (+75) "Created page with "Oi. I haz website Give me bitcoin plaz. 1F9bax85tY4bqczsUdWKkgtg5J6kW3nJr8""
(view diff)
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tommorris
it's the thing I've been wishing Amazon would do for a while.
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notizblog.org
edited /IRC_People (+44) "/* Nicknames */"
(view diff)
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dubiousdod.org
edited /2014/Online/Guest_List (+138) "I think I can already divulge my personal domain name at this point ;)"
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@IndieHosters
@DeadSuperHero We are first focusing on #IndieWeb, but we are definitely looking on federated social web too!
(twitter.com/_/status/533224753633705984)
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@IndieHosters
@larjona99 We are first focusing on IndieWeb, but we'll work on federated social web later!
(twitter.com/_/status/533224939344887808)
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@XopssVyGT9GRByZ
BxonOEC6o9 #IndieAuthor #indieauth #BookBoost #author
(twitter.com/_/status/533234182278098944)
scor, Loqi and aaronpk joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /selfdogfood (+9) "/* Lightsaber */ respect the 'Wars ;)"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Morning, indiewebcamp
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snarfed
hey gRegor`
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Loqi
snarfed: KartikPrabhu left you a message on 11/13 at 1:49pm: what are bridgy's latest reply webmention sending policies? of instance this: https://twitter.com/tilgovi/status/532982155354193920 did not get sent back because it was the 2nd reply/ was it not a reply at all?
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gRegor`
Hey snarfed
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ben_thatmust
good morning
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snarfed
hey ben_thatmust
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snarfed
!tell KartikPrabhu sorry. :/ probably twitter's best-effort-only search api struck again. :https://dev.twitter.com/rest/public/search . known issue, not much we can do about it :/ https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/202
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor`
Morning, ben_thatmust
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petermolnar
hi all, is anyone pulling comments & favs in from flickr?
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aaronpk
that would be a good one since they have a great api for that
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petermolnar
it would even be better if brid.gy could do it
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snarfed
aaronpk: sadly, in this case at least, the api isn't so great
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snarfed
details in the issue
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petermolnar
ah, now I remember, I did see this thread a while ago
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petermolnar
snarfed I digged a little around and getting favs and comments does not seem to be an issue once you have the list if image ids and getting the ids seem to be doable as well
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petermolnar
please see the comment on the thread
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ben_thatmust
manual posse to ARStechnica forums
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aaronpk
with comments and everything
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aaronpk
fascinating
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bret
gRegor`: stop it. that ALA article is triggering my OCD ;0
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bret
are block quotes really figures>
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gRegor`
Haha, bret
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Loqi
nice
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gRegor`
I have yet to dive into <figure>, so no idea
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gRegor`
I would venture 'yes', loosely
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bret
in the academic paper sense, its like some kind of image, or graph with a caption and label
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bret
aaronpk: bummer when new things dont work on all the browsers :(
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aaronpk
oh yeah. I was mostly just commenting on the fact that there's an entire blog post with pictures hosted as a gist.
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bret
oh yeah heh
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bret
gist blog
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bret
i seen people do full on articles in gists before, but not with photos
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@DeadSuperHero
@IndieHosters Understood, but there is such a significant overlap between the two. Federation enables IndieWeb capabilities further.
(twitter.com/_/status/533308053509394432)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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kylewm
Is the plan for IWC Online to have 1/2 day of discussions and 1/2 hack day?
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@aaronpk
@BillSeitz I think I get what you're talking about. Sounds like that kind of thing can be done with... #indieweb http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/11/14/1/indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/533315871154769920)
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GWG
kylewm, yes.
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kylewm.com
edited /2014/Online/Guest_List (+29) "/* Participants */ add user image"
(view diff)
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gRegor`
Haha "22:00 Camp Closed - clean up your room"
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aaronpk
I should totally get pizza delivered to my room for this
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Loqi
yea!
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gRegor`
OMG, @indiewebcat
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GWG
I'm getting a dryer delivered in the middle of it
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snarfed
hey all! …just to confirm, we don't yet have explicit mf2 for checkins, right?
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snarfed
of the five examples i looked at, most use p-location and/or h-card for the venue, and occasionally h-geo, but nothing like h-as-checkin or similar
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snarfed
(i'd take it to #microformats but lazy)
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snarfed
(the closest i've found on the mf wiki is http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#h-event_location_h-card , which isn't much)
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snarfed
here are the five i looked at: kylewm, aaronpk, barnabywalters, tommorris, benwerd: https://snarfed.org/checkin_research.txt
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aaronpk
mine is not a checkin
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aaronpk
mine is a photo posted at a venue
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aaronpk
i think barnaby's is as well
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snarfed
ah, thanks
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aaronpk
I know barnaby does actually have checkin posts
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snarfed
i'll find one
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kylewm
it looks like mko does "p-geo h-geo"
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kylewm
I think he is the most prolific poster of checkins
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aaronpk
soon I will be a strong contender for that title
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kylewm
didn't glennjones add automatic gps based checkins?
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kylewm
not sure, but here are more to choose from http://glennjones.net/checkins
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aaronpk
i'm not a fan of automatic checkins. automatic prompts sure, but not actual posts.
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kylewm
glenn's do not appear to be associated with a venue
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snarfed
thanks all
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kylewm
anyway, I think "p-location h-card" is correct if it's a venue, "p-location h-geo" if it's coordinates
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aaronpk
that still doesn't indicate it's an actual checkin though. because a photo at a venue would also be "p-location h-card"
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kylewm
that's a problem with every post type :)
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snarfed
kylewm: kinda. maybe more like we just don't have a checkin post type
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snarfed
(whereas we do for note, article, event, etc)
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snarfed
i don't know that we need one. just thinking out loud
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aaronpk
you mean like it's also ambiguous whether something is a note+photo or a photo+caption?
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kylewm
aaronpk: yes
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snarfed
aaronpk: sure, i guess similar
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aaronpk
I feel like it doesn't really matter for notes/photos, but there is definitely a distinction with checkins
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tantek
re: that ALA article - they didn't recognize that the <cite> definition is widely contested: https://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Cite_element
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tantek
and they completely forgot/ignored the "cite=" *attribute* on <blockquote> sigh.
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tantek
and apparently the HTML spec now allows for <cite> to quote just a person: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-cite-element
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tantek
reads scrollback on checkins
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tantek
what is a checkin?
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Loqi
A checkin is the action of checking into a location and sharing that information http://indiewebcamp.com/checkin
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snarfed
tantek: yup, read that a few times. definitely helpful but didn't provide an explicit mf2 class…which is fine
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tantek
hmm - look at that - no "how to" section. oops.
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tantek
snarfed: let me dig a bit more
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snarfed
tantek: sure
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gRegor`
Interesting, tantek. realized after sharing the link it's also from January 2013
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tantek
found it
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snarfed
right now i'm going with .h-event > .h-as-checkin > .h-card.p-location
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aaronpk
really wants to stay away from "as" classes
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tantek
snarfed - either ditch the .h-as-checkin
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snarfed
(er, sorry, top level is .h-entry, not .h-event_)
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tantek
(was going to say)
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tantek
or put it on the same element as the .h-entry
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tantek
like class="h-entry h-as-checkin"
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snarfed
tantek: i'd love to! but wordpress :(
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tantek
ok in that case ditch it
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snarfed
not impossible, but hard
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tantek
simpler
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snarfed
(same reason i have weak/hidden reply contexts :/)
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snarfed
if we don't like h-as- classes, i can just drop the h-as-
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tantek
"with a p-location venue -> checkin"
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snarfed
i want an explicit checkin class, but i don't care much whether it's mf2
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tantek
problem is not the h-as-, but rather the extra level of object
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aaronpk
tantek: I don't think that's accurate. (p-location venue implies checkin)
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Loqi
gives snarfed an explicit checkin class
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tantek
aaronpk - (counter-)example?
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snarfed
aaronpk: right. tantek: most actual users of .h-card.p-lcoation right now probably wouldn't expect that that alone implies a checkin
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aaronpk
i've been publishing notes with venues lots of the time, and they certainly aren't checkins
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snarfed
tantek: evidently both aaronpk's and barnabywalters's on https://snarfed.org/checkin_research.txt are not checkinns
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tantek
aaronpk - I'd say they're implicit checkins at a minimum
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snarfed
heh ok. debating implicit vs explicit is where i back away slowly :P
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aaronpk
trying to find a counterexample but it may take some digging. i'm looking for the example where I post a photo the day after I take it
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tantek
snarfed - no it's ok. aaronpk's example is a photo due to the u-photo
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tantek
that test is before the " (p-location venue implies checkin)"
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snarfed
tantek: sure, but that's just a happy accident
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tantek
snarfed: not an accident. that was a deliberate ordering on my part.
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aaronpk
posted july 4, but the photo was taken June 29
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tantek
in the post-type-impliedn algorithm
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kylewm
checkins can't have photos?
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aaronpk
so I was certainly not checking in to ground kontrol when I posted that on the 4th
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snarfed
tantek: i mean, people could still post with p-location and not intend it as an explicit checkin
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aaronpk
(also I've definitely attached a photo to checkins)
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snarfed
heh yes, also what kylewm said
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tantek
kylewm: they can - however, a u-photo right now primarily implies a *photo* post, not a checkin
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snarfed
failed to back away slowly
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snarfed
tries again
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tantek
the implied post type algorithm is evolving based on what people publish and what they (seem) to imply by it
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tantek
regardless, snarfed, it's a good question - "how should a check-in be marked up?"
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tantek
I have the additional problem with many of my checkins that they are "published" after the time of the actual checkin (nevermind the photo aspect)
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tantek
"postsq" or "postsquare" we call them
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snarfed
latersquares
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tantek
If I were publishing checkins I'd want a *separate* datetime property for the time of checkin
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tantek
(optional of course, with the dt-published being the default implied time of the checkin)
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@DeadSuperHero
@IndieHosters Understood, but there is such a significant overlap between the two. Federation enables IndieWeb capabilities further.
(twitter.com/_/status/533308053509394432)
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kylewm
seems like he's talking about indepdent web publishing, not IndieWeb stuff like webmention
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kylewm
@DeadSuperHero is saying Diaspora is the way to get federation into people's personal sites
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tantek
kylewm: except that Diaspora doesn't federate with any other implementations, so it's not really federating.
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@DeadSuperHero
Hey @IndieHosters, what would it take to get #Diaspora and #RedMatrix as supported packages on your platform?
(twitter.com/_/status/532990760896188416)
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tantek
what is RedMatrix?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "RedMatrix" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=RedMatrix
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tantek
which looks like a fork or install of friendica? https://redmatrix.me
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kylewm
I think it's a new project by the same person who did friendica
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tantek
so are they all running Identica/statusnet?
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kylewm
StatusNet : pump.io :: Friendica : RedMatrix
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kylewm
totally different
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gRegor`
what is postsquare?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "postsquare" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=postsquare
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tantek
kylewm: are you saying RedMatrix is running pump.io?
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tantek
kylewm: from the footer of redmatrix.me: "code" https://github.com/friendica/red
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tantek
reads like another single-open-source-project monoculture
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kylewm
tantek: no I'm saying statusnet is related to pump.io in the same way friendica is related to redmatrix
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tantek
requires everyone to install the same software: https://github.com/friendica/red/blob/master/install/INSTALL.txt ergo monoculture
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kylewm
there is also "The Network"
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kylewm
which I believe is the "interfederation" effort
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kylewm
what you would call "federation" :)
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tantek
does anyone not see the rampant irony in every "federation" project requiring you to run *their* software?
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kylewm
friendica actually talks to lots of different networks
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tantek
what is friendica?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "friendica" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=friendica
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tantek
kylewm - that's a big claim. citations needed.
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kylewm
tantek: friendica.com/features##Built-in+support+for+OStatus+federation
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kylewm
they claim first-class federation with statusnet and with Diaspora
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tantek
does anyone run friendica on their personal site?
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tantek
what is first-class federation?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "first-class federation" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=first-class+federation
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tantek
kylewm: lots of claims of federation - especially on mailing lists and readmes. Can you point to any *evidence* of actual federation happening? E.g. a post from one site/system running some software making it to another site/system running some other software, and a reply being sent back?
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kylewm
"first class federation" I would define as you haev ONE account that talks to lots of different servers running different software
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kylewm
and I'm not trying to sell you on Friendica, just trying to answer questions about it
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tantek
kylewm: that's a reasonable start of a definition
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tantek
having seen years of claims of federation but very little actual evidence / usage, I remain skeptical of any cross-system federation claims
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tantek
and in particular cross-project
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tantek
what is federation?
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Loqi
federation in the context of the indieweb refers to services and features on indieweb sites that work directly with other indieweb sites peer-to-peer, without being bottlenecked by any kind of centralized service or silo http://indiewebcamp.com/federation
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gRegor`
Friendica: but we have multiple silos! http://dir.friendica.com/siteinfo
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kylewm
heh, here's somebody running redmatrix https://deadsuperhero.com/
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kylewm
spoiler alert: blank
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tantek
so that's why they are asking for it to be an option on Indiehosters
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gRegor`
"The friendica API aims to be compatible to the StatusNet API which aims to be compatible to the Twitter API 1.0." https://github.com/friendica/friendica/wiki/Friendica-API
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gRegor`
dizzying
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@DeadSuperHero
Fake #Tumblr experience is even better on #RedMatrix now. You can tumble and be #decentralized and have #privacy too. https://twitter.com/DeadSuperHero/status/530300823545606145/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/530300823545606145)
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kylewm
showing posts from Diaspora in his redmatrix instance
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tantek
in a screenshot on Twitter
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tantek
and you wonder why I'm skeptical
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kylewm
maye it was POSSEd to twitter :)
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tantek
then where's the original?
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kylewm
seems like it's behind a login
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tantek
why is it behind a login and the POSSE copy not?
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kylewm
because twitter doesn't do that?
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tantek
it does - private accounts
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tantek
publicly posting on Twitter is a *choice*
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tantek
so pardon me if I don't believe there's some invisible original private post from which it originated.
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kylewm
I reeeeally don't have a dog in this fight; I just know that friendica was the one effort that didn't seem to want purity
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tantek
I don't have a dog in this fight either - I'm skeptical of all the federation claims.
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kylewm
and I don't think you're wrong to be skeptical
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kylewm
you said "does anyone not see the rampant irony in every "federation" project requiring you to use *their* software", and I was just saying that they didn't do that
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thedod
trying to deploy kylewm's redwind on a pretty much broken machine (compiled python3. twice). Getting there :)
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tantek
kylewm - that's a good point. even if it's only claimed, saying you federate with other projects is incrementally better than "install our software to federate".
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tantek
note to self, filter on "To better focus our efforts and to align them with the needs of our global member base" -> likely hollow rationalization for what comes next
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tantek
gRegor`: that's worthy of adding to /site-deaths
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tantek
what is Netflix?
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kylewm
I didn't know of anybody using the Netflix API other than http://abetterqueue.com/
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kylewm
but that's a shame, A Better Queue was a really nice service (basically just a nice looking mashup with Rotten Tomatoes)
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aaronpk
so here's a funny thing about federation
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aaronpk
do you think people would say that bittorrent sync is federated? it's all peer-to-peer! just run this software! ;)
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tantek
perhaps we need to define levels of federation
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gregorlove.com
edited /Netflix (+114) "dfn+stub"
(view diff)
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bear
there can be different things you can transfer in a federated system, but federation itself has only one meaning - the ability to send messages between different networks
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herbsmn
I'm pretty sure the government invented federation. I mean, it's right in the name! FEDeration!
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+483) "/* 2014 */ Netflix API"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+6) "/* 2014 */ bold formatting"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths (+2) "/* 2014 */ bold formatting"
(view diff)
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tantek
see here for my attempt at defining federation *during* the social web wg f2f last month: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2014-10-28#t1414517694124
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gRegor`
Wonder if we need a "near miss" section of site-deaths
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tantek
at risk?
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tantek
well there's a bunch in the upcoming section
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gRegor`
mlkshk.com announced closure and seemed pretty serious, but ended up changing their mind: http://mlkshk.typepad.com/mlkshk/
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gRegor`
"What if…? We appreciate the passion the users have for the site but there really is no other option than this. We explored many ideas for making more money but nothing worked for us." http://mlkshk.typepad.com/mlkshk/2014/04/goodbye.html
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tantek
gRegor`: that's probably better captured on the mlkshk page
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gRegor`
ok
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tantek
what is MLKSHK?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "MLKSHK" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=MLKSHK
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gregorlove.com
created /mlkshk (+117) "stub"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /site-deaths () "(-991) /* Upcoming */ moving mlkshk"
(view diff)
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tantek
!tell snarfed are you thinking of implementing checkin posts for yourself? Perhaps add that to an Itches section on your User: page? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Snarfed.org
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gregorlove.com
edited /mlkshk (+1053) "/* Site Death */"
(view diff)
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snarfed
tantek: probably not implementing, but i may compose them manually occasionally
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Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 3 minutes ago: are you thinking of implementing checkin posts for yourself? Perhaps add that to an Itches section on your User: page? http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Snarfed.org
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thedod
Hello again. An "etiquete" question: can I install my redwind as /indie (and add some microformat hints at /)? Or should my indiewebcamp presence be proudly displayed at /?
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tantek
you can install and run whatever software you want in whatever URL structure you want ;)
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thedod
cool.
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tantek
it is likely that people will refer to your personal domain as your indieweb presence
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tantek
those are two separate statements :)
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thedod
now the question is whether I'll bump into tech problems, but that's minor :)
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thedod
looks. better now than later
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kylewm
thedod: it will probably take some work to get it to run outside of /
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thedod
Maybe I've toyed with having a tahoe-lafs cloud as my / for long enough
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tantek
what is a tahoe-lafs cloud?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tahoe-lafs cloud" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tahoe-lafs+cloud
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thedod
it lets you store data on a 1 or more hosts you don't necessarily trust, so that they can't tell what's there, and also they're redundant (even if they inject false data, you can recover)
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thedod
today there are many services claiming they're "like dropbox but really secure"
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thedod
this is a decade old project for banks who want backup. not a toy
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thedod
and smart and good people
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thedod
e.g. zooko (from zooko's triangle)
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thedod
now it's handy to have as a filesystem (backup, sharing, etc.), and I loved the trick that they did a plugin to tiddlywiki that lets you update to the cloud (if you run the client and do this on localhost), but maybe it jumped the shark
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thedod
Iet's try redwind as my /
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thedod
5am here, night is young. let's hope the nginx is willing
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kylewm
good luck!
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thedod
bows and exits into a closet
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aaronparecki.com
created /2014/Cambridge/expenses (+406) "add breakfast receipt"
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mlncn and tantek joined the channel
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thedod
kylewm, first time I deploy with uwsgi and I wonder: config.py gets stuff from env. where do I make these env declarations in a uwsgi+nginx environment?
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thedod
I also need to declare the virtualenv to run the "right" python
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thedod
(compiled it 4 times today it would *better* be the right one)
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rascul.io
edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (-6) "/* Nginx Configuration */ update cipher list to support IE 8 / XP as per ssllabs"
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rascul.io
edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (+6) "/* Nginx Configuration */ fix my broken wiki markup"
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tantek, krendil, snarfed and brianloveswords joined the channel
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rascul.io
edited /User:Rascul.io/ssl (+200) "/* Host Specific Configuration */ spdy: announce support and compress headers"
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