#indiewebcamp 2014-10-19

2014-10-19 UTC
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: that permalink has three h-entries; doesn't really seem like Known's fault
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kylewm that did make it look very spammy though, when it wasn't
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+287) "/* Multiple in-reply-to */ note about [] characters" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Micropub (+1027) "/* Brainstorming */ added micropub version of indie-config" (view diff)
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KevinMarks Tantek - a stronger example is t.co
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@xtof_fr RT @elfpavlik: .@xtof_fr, awesomeEvent: #bono14 + excellent #IndieWeb workshop with {@aaronpk @adactio}++ vm.online(@as250).then(elf.enable… (twitter.com/_/status/523660608127119360)
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fiatjaf what is Loqi
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Loqi Loqi is a friendly and useful bot present in the #indiewebcamp IRC channel and other channels http://indiewebcamp.com/Loqi
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fiatjaf !temperature
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Loqi Clear and 61 degrees
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fiatjaf hmans: how did you get so much people to use your pants?
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fiatjaf hmans: you didn't ask me, but I think you comment server is a good idea.
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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GWG Good evening, tantek
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ben_thatmust its very late for me
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ben_thatmust bedtime indeed
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aaronpk good morning!
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Loqi aaronpk: KartikPrabhu__ left you a message 8 hours, 34 minutes ago: maybe the lower footer on the beta version of chat logs could be stuck to browser window? easier to find context and reply directly without scrolling down
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 31 minutes ago: it seems some browsers (ahem) redirect twtr.io URLs to www.twtr.io when offline, and then when resuming online, they retry the www.twtr.io URLs which then 404. Could you redirect permanent from www.twtr.io to twtr.io?
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aaronpk tantek: looks like t.co has the same www problem
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 8 hours, 28 minutes ago: on second thought, keep returning 404 from www.twtr.io. I'm going to file a Firefox bug on this. This is dumb behavior in the browser and I'll use twtr.io as an example of why the browser shouldn't be "sticky" to the www.* version of a URL.
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tantek aaronpk - indeed
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1) "move past events to recent" (view diff)
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /squiso (+9) "updated link to main page" (view diff)
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aaronpk interesting, is that like those one-off service-name@your-domain.com email addresses?
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tantek.com edited /Events (+649) "add border:none event with indieweb related sessions" (view diff)
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /squiso (+1176) "updated project page" (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 updating text from markdown to indiewebcamp syntax is getting more and more painful :P
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aaronpk heh yeah, not sure why markdown decided to use different header syntax
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squeakytoy2 but its also bullets, images, links
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aaronpk yeah, wtf markdown links
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aaronpk i can never remember which order the links vs text goes, and whether to use [] or () for which
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aaronpk mediawiki syntax has been around for a long time, and there isn't a whole lot wrong with it. not sure why gruber felt like making a bunch of tiny stylistic changes to basically the same thing
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /squiso (+3) "/* Squiso */" (view diff)
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thierry.marianne.io created /Varnish (+468) "Created page with "Varnish is a caching [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_proxy HTTP reverse proxy]. It is also known as an HTTP accelerator. Cacheable responses served by a web application w..."" (view diff)
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warped maybe he's a Diva. if those posts about him flipping about CommonMark prior-names (including "markdown" in them) is true
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aaronpk interesting, he cites a bunch of other text-to-html syntaxes, but not mediawiki http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/syntax#philosophy
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tantek he may have just missed it
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aaronpk i mean there are plenty of annoying things about mediawiki syntax too, don't get me wrong :P
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tantek agreed
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aaronpk before I started p3k I was working on my own syntax for my wiki
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squeakytoy2 how do you know the user you are on the wiki?
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squeakytoy2 i still havent figured that out
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aaronpk squeakytoy2: it's in the footer
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aaronpk I'm gonna try to make it show up next to the "Log Out" button in the header tho
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squeakytoy2 right, thanks
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aaronpk I ended up ditching my own syntax and instead adding a pre-processor that makes some transforms before handing it off to the markdown parser https://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/09/01/1/some-enhancements-to-markdown
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /projects (+179) "added squiso to the project page" (view diff)
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indieauth.christoffer.me created /User:Indieauth.christoffer.me (+62) "updated user page" (view diff)
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /projects (+86) "added Used and primary developed by Squeakytoy in IRC" (view diff)
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /User:Indieauth.christoffer.me (+32) (view diff)
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thierry.marianne.io edited /Varnish (+285) "/* updated Varnish page */" (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 this chat will be spammed with all my edits :P
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thierry.marianne.io edited /Varnish (-13) (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 i have to create a fullstack website from scratch again.. sigh, not looking forward to it
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squeakytoy2 aaronpk, in my project, i am storing text in JSON-files. However, i would like this text to be formatted (such as, identify links, etc, etc). (an example https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8183146/temp/squiso_viewer/corgrath/corgrath.json )
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squeakytoy2 aaronpk, so i need to pick a format syntax, either if its bbcode, mediawiki or a new homebrew solution. You have any experience or feedback concerning this?
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squeakytoy2 or maybe markdown
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squeakytoy2 thinks
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aaronpk html?
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aaronparecki.com edited /Varnish (+17) "add dfn tag" (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 aaronpk, html is too specifik :|
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aaronpk specific to what?
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squeakytoy2 its a too specific format to use in data
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squeakytoy2 abstraction-wise
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aaronpk my articles are stored in markdown with some additions that I linked above
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squeakytoy2 yea
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aaronpk but now and then I enter plain HTML into the articles because the markdown for it is cumbersome or not possible
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squeakytoy2 it makes it harder for a native android app to intepret and render the article tho :-)
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aaronpk markdown does?
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aaronpk sounds like a job for html! ;)
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squeakytoy2 Markdown creates an abstraction
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squeakytoy2 (thats kinda the whole purpose)
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squeakytoy2 make with mediawiki
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squeakytoy2 same*
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KevinMarks__ HTML cares an abstraction too, but with converged, well defined behaviour, And good handling of unknown markup
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warped think of HTML as "extreme markdown"
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squeakytoy2 i dont agree
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squeakytoy2 too specific for a certain audience
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@nicolascluz Si j'utilise indieweb-press-this vers Kwown, l'url mentionné devient 3 fois l'url d'origine. http://mabulledu.net zzpZqKl #indieweb #bug (twitter.com/_/status/523771178335219713)
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warped HTML is just some crap a few lines of code generates from the Turtle here. screw it. obsolete stuff i'd rather not touch (and certainly not dig around in for Microformats, RDFa, or MicroData)
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@xtof_fr @nicolascluz Pour t'aider, je te suggère de rejoindre le canal #indiewebcamp sur freenode et d'y poser ta .. http://xtof.withknown.com/2014/nicolascluz-pour-taider-je-te-suggre-de-rejoindre-le-canal (twitter.com/_/status/523835276406177792)
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Loqi [mention] http://xtof.withknown.com/2014/nicolascluz-pour-taider-je-te-suggre-de-rejoindre-le-canal linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC (webmention)
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KevinMarks https://twitter.com/HollowCrownFans/status/523785790657417216
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@HollowCrownFans RT @claudiaredux: #ShakespeareSunday So between them love did shine, That the turtle saw his right Flaming in the phoenix' sight ; Either w… (twitter.com/_/status/523785790657417216)
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kylewm squeakytoy2++ project page for /squiso looks good, thanks for adding! you should also add yourself to /irc-people when you have a chance
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Loqi squeakytoy2 has 1 karma
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mko aaronpk: regarding food post clustering, if you want to chat about data/metrics clustering, I'd be happy to chat. I'm looking at a 100:1 ratio of data to content posts right now, so I started designing a cached h-feed with clustered individual posts.
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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squeakytoy2 OH MY GOD
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squeakytoy2 i got karma
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squeakytoy2 will it help me get a gf?
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GWG squeakytoy2: I haven't found a use for it
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GWG Other than props
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GWG !tell acegiak Made a change in Indieweb Taxonomy for future development that would affect you
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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ShaneHudson Regarding data collecting, which peices of data are the easiest to collect?
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ShaneHudson I tried location but too much of a strain on battery
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indieauth.christoffer.me edited /IRC_People (+58) "added myself" (view diff)
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david.shanske.com edited /WordPress (+107) "/* More building blocks */" (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 kylewm, did you understand the purpose of squiso? (if you cared enough that is ;) )
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david.shanske.com edited /User:David.shanske.com (+122) "/* For the Future */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com created /Squiso (+20) "capitalization" (view diff)
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kylewm squeakytoy2: yes I think I understand the purpose
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kylewm squeakytoy2: is your data structure based on an existing spec? (ActivityStreams, schema.org, etc.)
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@kevinmarks @xor maybe some #indieweb hacking (twitter.com/_/status/523884754618163200)
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kylewm.com edited /IndieAuth (+514) "/* RDFa */ copy gist of solution here in addition to linking to the mail archive" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/xtof_fr/523582617556226048/43192699 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=projects&oldid=14589#TheGrid (webmention)
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kylewm.com edited /Web_sign-in (+154) "/* Implementations */ add cweiske's IndieAuth-OpenID" (view diff)
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squeakytoy2 kylewm, nope. my "structure" is currently what I personally need. But sooner or later, maybe more and more will join the network, and we together define what is needed. But first step for me, is it build it in a way it includes everything of my public social data.
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kylewm squeakytoy2: tbh, it feels a little bit like reinventing the wheel, when there are already lots of competing efforts at creating this type of schema
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squeakytoy2 kylewm, such as activitystreams?
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squeakytoy2 or what is the closest wheel you can identify?
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kylewm activitystreams, RDF, JSON-LD, microformats
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kylewm check out the charter of the social WG that tantek is involved with
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kylewm s/involved with/co-chairing
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Loqi kylewm meant to say: check out the charter of the social WG that tantek is co-chairing
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kylewm www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter.html
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kylewm you may be interested in following along with their work
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squeakytoy2 perhaps its reinventing the wheel
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squeakytoy2 but from what I know and have seen, the goals and the scope is not the same
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kylewm interesting, ok
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squeakytoy2 but that could also be the lack of my knowledge with all these standards :-)
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kylewm it's easy to change that stuff later anyway, if suddenly the world miraculously switches over to a standard
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squeakytoy2 true, but what standard are you refering to?
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squeakytoy2 JSON-LD?
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squeakytoy2 if you take activitystream, thats great. but i believe its not what I want.
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squeakytoy2 we will see what happens :-)
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kylewm I don't know which standard... we like microformats2 around these parts
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gregorlove.com edited /squiso (+17) "/* What is Squiso? */ dfn" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is Squiso?
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Loqi Squiso wants to create a decentralized open social web, by allowing users to host their own social data or trust a service provider of their choice http://indiewebcamp.com/squiso
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squeakytoy2 kylewm, yupp i know :-) so i am an outsider
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gRegor` squeakytoy2++ for adding Squiso on the wiki
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Loqi squeakytoy2 has 2 karma
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aaronpk but what *is* squiso?
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squeakytoy2 an STD?
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aaronpk the dfn says "squiso wants to..."
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squeakytoy2 thats because very little is built apart from a prototype/proof of concept
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gRegor` I just chose the first instance of "Squiso". squeakytoy2 can better put a 'is' statement in there :)
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gRegor` I don't see a license on your github for it, squeakytoy2. Just a heads up that the wiki is CC0. You hotlinked the logo, so that's no problem.
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squeakytoy2 not sure what can be copyrighted
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squeakytoy2 i guess the current standards, but thats v0.1-draft
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squeakytoy2 tbh, i dont know any legalz concerning standards
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gRegor` Mostly just letting you know that contributions on the wiki are public domain.
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squeakytoy2 yupp yupp, thanks
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kylewm aaronpk: if i want to support logging in with an arbitrary authorization_endpoint on my site, do I need to follow the whole micropub flow to get an access token?
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kylewm it seems like that's the only way to verify the response from the auth endpoint
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aaronpk you don't need a micropub endpoint, but you need the others
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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aaronpk man I really gotta finish support for that on indieauth.com
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kylewm ohhh I see, you POST back to the auth endpoint to verify
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aaronpk I'm so close too
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kylewm ty
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aaronpk yep that's a neat little trick we can do since everything is http
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kylewm is there anything wrong with saving the discovered authorization_endpoint url in the client session?
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aaronpk do you need it for something?
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kylewm when I get the callback, i want to verify the code against the authorization_endpoint
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kylewm just hoping to avoid fetching it again
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk yeah that should be fine
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aaronpk I wouldn't store it any longer than that
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aaronpk just because it might change
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kylewm is there a better way to do that?
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aaronpk no I think that's fine
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aaronpk trying to remember how I did that
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aaronpk I think I do discover it each time
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aaronpk but meh
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aaronpk you can also avoid a server-side session by storing everything you need in the state parameter
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aaronpk but that may be over-optimizing :)
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kylewm ah yeah, that is what we did on a bridgy thing
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kylewm just shove everything into state
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kylewm that's why i was complaining about urlencoding json :)
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kylewm aaronpk: thanks again
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aaronpk you shouldn't be putting raw JSON into query strings. use something like JWT so that you can sign it so you know people can't mess with it
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Loqi yea
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aaronpk gives loqi a JWT
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Loqi thanks, aaronpk!
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kylewm even if the json is harmless?
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kylewm that does seem like it would look nicer...
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aaronpk define hardmess?
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kylewm hehe
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aaronpk s/dm/ml/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: define harmless?
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aaronpk i don't even know what that typo was
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aaronpk i've been typing in german for the past couple hours...
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kylewm you can provide a redirect url to brid.gy/twitter/auth, so that when it finishes authorizing with twitter, it wll redirect back to some external url (e.g., withknown.com/setup)
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kylewm so the state parameter just has that callback
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kylewm the worst thing they could do is make it so bridgy redirects them to malicioussite.com after authorizating wtih twitter
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aaronpk ah ok
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aaronpk that's mostly harmless
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kylewm still sounds like a good idea, I'll see what snarfed thinks
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aaronpk at the very least JWT is all base64-encoded so at least it's not visibly JSON
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aaronpk but yeah for the indieauth thing, you would absolutely need to sign it in a JWT or something otherwise people could do some screwy things
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kylewm yeah that definitely makes sense
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kylewm it looks like ben_thatmustbeme fetches the user homepage again too, i'll just do that for now
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kylewm.com edited /distributed-indieauth (+38) "/* Sites that support distributed IndieAuth */ add me" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/10152420354684639_10152420677334639 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/503216890 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/10152420354684639_10152420616579639 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/100001491197200 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/10152420354684639_10152420653999639 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/facebook/631284638/10152420354684639/10152420354684639_10152420968079639 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieWebCampParis (webmention)
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GWG Greetings.
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KartikPrabhu__ squeakytoy2: would be good if you documented use-case for squiso along with the plumbing details
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bret hmans: pants is awesome btw great work on it!
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bret hmans++
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Loqi hmans has 11 karma
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@kevinmarks @glynmoody @leonidobusch @govxborders a bit more discussion here: http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture (twitter.com/_/status/523950379273179136)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/523950379273179136/523951028614754306 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/monoculture (webmention)
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KevinMarks__ Follow this thread if you're interested in standards discussion: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/523948200747495424?s=09
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@kevinmarks @leonidobusch @glynmoody @govxborders open source leads to monoculture, not standards, which are now about documenting, not legislating. (twitter.com/_/status/523948200747495424)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/indie-config (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/webactions.htm linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/silo (webmention)
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GWG Slow night
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KartikPrabhu__ KevinMarks__ interested in what you mean by composability here: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/523954358254194688
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@kevinmarks @glynmoody @leonidobusch @govxborders modularity, or better, composability is key, but you need alternatives to fit into defined interfaces (twitter.com/_/status/523954358254194688)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: do you have any thoughts on this, as an alternative spin on indie-config? http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Action_Handler_Discovery
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: will look at it but I haven't really looked into indie-config so...
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kylewm only a handful of people know about micropub, so I'll take what I can get ;)
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GWG kylewm, looks interesting.
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kylewm it could be seen as overloading micropub, but i could argue that it serves the same purpose as the "trust-less flow" suggested above
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GWG kylewm, you plan to implement?
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kylewm GWG: I'm working on it now
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: interesting. but wasn't the whole signing into unknown sites the problem that trustless flow was trying to address?
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kylewm KartikPrabhu__: the trustless micropub still requires sign-in and an access token, but you can grant read-only permissions ... voxpelli's indie-config stuff doesn't require any sign in at all
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: the no sign in thing is a big advantage particularly for sites you don't trust.
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kylewm this is true
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KartikPrabhu__ i like the idea of GET request to micropub endpoint giving an idea of the capabilities of the endpoint
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kylewm yeah, and this isn't really that :(
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KartikPrabhu__ not exactly but it is sort of similar
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kylewm it's a bit tangential to micropub
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GWG kylewm, good luck.
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kylewm GWG: thanks :) Are you feeling better
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kylewm ?
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: it is definitely worth exploring and building an example
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kylewm ok great, that's good encouragement :)
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KartikPrabhu__ "the only way to find out for sure is to do it" -- Anon
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KartikPrabhu__ I made that one up ;)
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kylewm "have you tried it?" -- first answer on every StackOverflow question
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GWG kylewm, a little. I just started my vacation.
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KartikPrabhu__ SO is annoying that way sometimes
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kylewm benwerd got a high quality native comment here http://werd.io/2014/middling-doesnt-need-a-name---but-im-glad-to#comments
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KartikPrabhu__ yeah that is a really good comment
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GWG kylewm, I do have decongestants.
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kylewm GWG: that's good, hopefully you are somewhere relaxing and not somewhere that requires lots of exertion?
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KartikPrabhu__ that is also why I don't want to post simple "likes" and "repost" but have some text which says "why I like it or why I reposted this"
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KevinMarks By composability I mean being able to plug components together without having to know all the detaila
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KartikPrabhu__ KevinMarks: does that include cross-backend talking? As in a PHP code should be able to talk to a Python code base?
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KartikPrabhu__ maybe I'm thinking this the wrong way
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GWG kylewm, I am on a plane 37000ft above the earth
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KartikPrabhu__ also people saing that open-standards => monoculture is strange
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kylewm sounded like they didn't understand what is meant by monoculture
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kylewm like, by that definition HTML is a monoculture
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KevinMarks W
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kylewm (I just mean the indiewebcamp definition, not impugning Glyn's intelligence)
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KevinMarks yes, the point being that the well defined boundary is what makes components work, which implies sinew degree of standardisation
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KevinMarks s/sinew/some/
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Loqi KevinMarks meant to say: yes, the point being that the well defined boundary is what makes components work, which implies some degree of standardisation
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KartikPrabhu__ KevinMarks: yup. the boundary communication needs to be standard but the rest is upto you. which is what indiewebcamp has been doing pretty well
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KevinMarks That can just be http+json level agreement, but then you still need to write translators, it it can be agreeing on bigger structures
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KevinMarks And then you can have transducers like unmung or bridgy
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KartikPrabhu__ yup like http+mf2 for webmentions but then your blog backend can do whatever it wants
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@obra @benwerd it'd be cool if I could use my Known API key as an indieauth token. (twitter.com/_/status/523980640140550144)
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KartikPrabhu__ <sigh> ^
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kylewm o_O
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kylewm isn't that like saying it'd be cool to use your twitter API key on facebook?
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KartikPrabhu__ API keys are for the API not for authentication or something. And you indieauth token must change periodically unlike an API key
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kylewm I'll give the benefit of the doubt and assume it's a 140-character issue
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@ccarfi Seeing if my IndieWeb site at http://ccarfi.com can connect to Twitter. If you can see this on Twitter, it's working. (twitter.com/_/status/523983796954087424)
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@kevinmarks Looks like it works to me. Welcome to the #indieweb @ccarthi (twitter.com/_/status/523984551358386176)
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KevinMarks Lol typo