#indiewebcamp 2014-10-17

2014-10-17 UTC
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tantek is still documenting snarfed's FAQ and others' too.
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tantek re: templates for microformatted html - for most post pages and things like reply /reply-context etc. we do have "how to mark up" suggestions. we can and should add more.
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tantek every type of post page should have some suggested way to mark it up
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tantek which should hopefully refer back to http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry for more examples / how-to
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tantek as kylewm says, as a guideline or at least getting started
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tantek yes I use some XPath in Falcon
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tantek search cassis.js for /* XPath */ :)
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tantek nm - I see kylewm posted
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tantek alright it sounds like for consuming applications, we need /stream-discovery /post-discovery and /post-parsing
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tantek (preferring stream over feed, and post over entry)
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tantek (user-centric terms over legacy plumbing-centric terms)
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: do you mean algorithms for those three like authorship discovery algorithm?
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tantek yes
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tantek to reduce the pain that I think Mark87 is referring to
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KartikPrabhu__ hmm a more precise pain point would be useful
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tantek also, pretty sure this can be done quickly by a mix of I can braindump, and barnabywalters can share his experience with reading h-feed and h-entry for /shrewdness
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KartikPrabhu__ I haven't been pained by any mf2 output using
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tantek KartikPrabhu: to put words in Mark87's mouth/keyboard:
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tantek how do I find the primary stream of posts on a page?
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KartikPrabhu__ and might I recommend /mf2util by kylewm for python users
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tantek how do I find a post inside a stream on a page?
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tantek how do I find a post on a page?
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kylewm thanks, KartikPrabhu :)
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KartikPrabhu__ would those be more than "look for first h-feed/entry"?
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tantek how do I find the details of a post on a page like name of post if any, content, summary, author, date published, date updated if any, featured image or other link-preview?
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tantek KartikPrabhu: it's possible that the answers are that short
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KartikPrabhu__ oh ok with the added details maybe a documentation is useful
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tantek we should still document them
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tantek as the answers may not be so obvious to the casual (or new) observer
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KartikPrabhu__ yes. I might be biased due to writing code for mf2py and digging through everything
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fiatjaf wasn't the silos the inventors of many of the features indieweb sites support today (like tweets, check-ins and songs heard)?
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: yes! no one here denies the UI advances that happened in silos instead of on everyone's website
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KartikPrabhu__ note silos don't support cross-silo interactions though :P
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tantek KartikPrabhu: you're biased because you've already spent the time figuring out the answers, which are now obvious to you ;)
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: yes!
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KartikPrabhu__ kylewm: maybe an outline of the algo used in /mf2util might be a good start in this direction
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tantek fiatjaf: re: silos the inventors - yes! very much so and we're documenting them as we can! http://indiewebcamp.com/silos#Silo_Innovations
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mowens.com edited /checkin (+92) "/* Michael Owens */" (view diff)
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fiatjaf I was thinking that maybe people here could think twice about these inventions. they may not be so good as they seem.
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fiatjaf but I'm just saying that because I personally don't like a lot of these features
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: any examples? also everyone is free to implement whatever subset of features they like
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fiatjaf (but I am not trying to judge any of you)
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fiatjaf (neither criticize)
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: "not good" in what sense though?
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fiatjaf (I don't have any criticisms. in contrary, I was looking for them)
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: I don't think you'll encounter much oppposition to "i don't want to implement X"
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fiatjaf KartikPrabhu__: oh, for example, maybe tweets are bad because they disencourage long thoughts about subjects.
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tantek fiatjaf: "tweets" meaning short text notes were done by people on their own sites LONG before Twitter
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: of course! but people here have /notes not tweets :)
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KartikPrabhu__ any length restriction is up to you
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tantek.com edited /silo (+297) "/* Silo Innovations */ add checkins and scrobbles per fiatjaf pointing them out" (view diff)
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fiatjaf KartikPrabhu__: right, right
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tantek is "discourage long thoughts about subjects" worthy of adding to a "Criticism" section on /note ? fiatjaf, KartikPrabhu
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: /notes don't have any strict length limit so probably not. But criticism of /Twitter maybe
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fiatjaf tantek: really? I didn't know that. I am not from the US, and I am new at the computers world, so the first time I heard the word "tweet" was about thing people wrote at twitter.com
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tantek fiatjaf: certainly "tweet" was an invention of Twitter as a term, but the underlying concept of a short text note long predates Twitter
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KartikPrabhu__ for example here is my really long note: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/webmention-abuse-suggestion
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tantek the original Blogger tool only let you post text notes (without a title)
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tantek many of the first bloggers in the late 1990s posted short text notes
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tantek which is probably why Twitter's success caught nearly all of them by surprise
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tantek needs to get another laptop to keep up with the rate of topics in #indiewebcamp
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: are you already writing on your on site?
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KartikPrabhu__ needs his actual laptop to be delivered from Hong Kong!
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fiatjaf tantek: understood.
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fiatjaf KartikPrabhu__: http://fiatjaf.github.io/ I have two old posts, content from others' and the clippings I make when reading anything at my kindle. but it is mostly portuguese.
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@almereyda Hi @davewiner: Is #Radio3.io consciously an @indiewebcamp approach to publishing, like @withknown, or does it stay a service without source? (twitter.com/_/status/522908073296674817)
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: nice! I was looking into posting reading notes too
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fiatjaf http://fiatjaf.github.io/recortes-de-acender/
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kylewm are you an economist fiatjaf?
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KartikPrabhu__ fiatjaf: yes just like those ones :)
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fiatjaf kylewm: probably, it depends on your concept of "economist" :P
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kylewm my entire understanding of Brazil's economy is based on http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money but it seems *fascinating*
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fiatjaf what is comments
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Loqi A comment is a kind of post that is in reply to some other post, that makes little or no sense without reading or at least knowing the context of the source post http://indiewebcamp.com/comments
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fiatjaf kylewm: is it about Brazil?
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fiatjaf kylewm: seems to be about money in general.
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kylewm fiatjaf: only Act 1
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tantek.com edited /Special:Log/move () "moved [[photos]] to [[photo]] over redirect: singularize" (view diff)
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fiatjaf kylewm: I am hearing it.
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tantek.com edited /Photos (-1) "r" (view diff)
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fiatjaf Act 1 is about money, the rest is about Brazil?
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tantek On another topic: those of you posting photos on your own sites http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to people-tag the people in the photos?
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kylewm fiatjaf: Act 1 is called "The Lie that Saved Brazil", about the invention of the Real: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/423/the-invention-of-money?act=1
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tantek alright, I'm going to !tell that one
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kylewm I'm interested in having "in this photo: list of names" type tags, but not so much tagging x/y coordinates
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KartikPrabhu__ tantek: by people tag you mean the UI where it tags some region on the photo with people?
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tantek.com moved /people-tag to /person-tag "singularize"
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tantek.com created /people_tag (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /person_tag (+24) "r" (view diff)
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Mark87 does anyone here follow Dave Winer at all?
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: follow as in?
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Mark87 pay attention to?
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Mark87 read his stuff on any sort of regular basis
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Mark87 know who he is?
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kylewm Mark87: I have just started recently
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KartikPrabhu__ hmm i read th things that people here link/refer
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kylewm Mark87: why do you ask?
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Mark87 kylewm I just started to recently. Somebody needs to get him involved in indieweb
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Mark87 he's following a similar thought process as us
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tantek Mark87 - I used to, since he has interesting opinions that are often different, however I have stopped since the misogynist and ageist posts :(
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kylewm afaict, he is well-aware and uninterested
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Loqi it'll be ok
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Mark87 ahhh
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Mark87 I see
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: hmmm quite unlikely. He views indiewebcamp as anti-RSS
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Mark87 no one has any links handy do they?
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KartikPrabhu__ or that is my reading of his view
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tantek Mark87 - his writings on those matters are pretty clear violations of our /code-of-conduct
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tantek which is unfortunate, because he is obviously quite passionate about a lot of the same /principles as indieweb
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Mark87 @tantek indeed
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: https://twitter.com/davewiner/status/482858756800520192
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@davewiner If you're going to @indiewebcamp today, please tell them that RSS is a good thing for independence, and please use it, don't fight it. ;-) (twitter.com/_/status/482858756800520192)
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tantek Mark87 - I don't want to link to specifics of those directly - you can discover the easily by google for "winer misogynist" or "winer ageist". I keep holding out hope that he will retract and apologize.
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tantek.com created /person_tagging (+24) "r for findability" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /people_tagging (+0) "-r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /people-tagged (+0) "-r" (view diff)
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Mark87 interesting
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Mark87 i have googled for 8 minutes. i am now an expert
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+250) "/* Silo Examples */ FB limitation 50 people" (view diff)
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fiatjaf kylewm: I like the interviews. I'd never heard such happy casual interviews with these guys before.
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@djp1974 "Techno-utopians like to argue that open systems always win, but that simply isn’t true" @caseorganic http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/11/the-internet-of-someone-elses-things/ #iot #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/522917853133934592)
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tantek !tell snarfed,bret,benwerd,aaronpk,adactio,KartikPrabhu since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+704) "IndieWeb interest" (view diff)
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tantek KartikPrabhu: a "person tag" is something semantic about the photo, and yes usually has a specific UI for a user to explicitly "person tag" someone in a post rather than just "mention" a person. More: http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
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tantek.com edited /person-tag (+128) "person, and explicit tag vs. mention" (view diff)
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tantek what is a person tag?
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a special kind of tag that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tag by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag
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KartikPrabhu__ not much of an itch for me since I don't really have people with URLs to tag afaik
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Loqi KartikPrabhu__: tantek left you a message 24 minutes ago: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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Mark87 why are some people duplicating e-content as p-name in their h-entry markup?
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: example?
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Mark87 https://kartikprabhu.com/notes
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KartikPrabhu__ probably because they are /notes notes don't have a separate p-name
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Mark87 do you do it for compatibility or something? if there's no title why not exclude it?
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kylewm Mark87: everything has a name property, if you don't give one, one will be generated for you
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kylewm and you won't like the one that is generated
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kylewm so people mark up the thing that is closest to a name
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: yeah the p-name is implied but it will pick up all the text inside the h-entry including date and synicated to links
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Mark87 http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Properties seems to say that all properties are optional, and "title-less" notes can exist
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Mark87 what software is autogenerating titles?
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kylewm uh oh, we have a new thing that is between a /note and an /article http://waxy.org/2014/10/middling/
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KartikPrabhu__ yes they can. but parsers will make a p-name for you if there is none
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Mark87 which parsers?
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Mark87 if you don't mind me asking
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KartikPrabhu__ all microformat parsers
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Mark87 well that's annoying. I'll just do a check if title=content ignore it
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Mark87 for my purposes
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KartikPrabhu__ Mark87: that is th definition of a note anyway
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KartikPrabhu__ it is the safe default for any plaintext aka p-* property
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KartikPrabhu__ see: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_p-_property
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kylewm ref: https://github.com/kylewm/mf2util/blob/master/mf2util/util.py#L191
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KartikPrabhu__ err sorry this one: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_for_implied_properties
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 71 karma
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tantek Mark87: re: title==content, see http://indiewebcamp.com/note#Note_Type_Algorithm for a more precise algorithm
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tantek kylewm re: middling, I think that's still just a note
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tantek unless he names his posts (titles), then it's an article. still a simple distinction I think.
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KartikPrabhu__ lets call a norticle!
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Mark87 twiddicle?
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tantek that being said, if you find an example in the wild of something between a note and an article, feel free to post the URL and we can debate it :)
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GWG reads u
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GWG reads up
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KevinMarks__ I caught up on backscroll, then everyone left
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GWG KevinMarks__: What am I? Chopped liver?
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KevinMarks__ I mean
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GWG Everyone in the previous conversation
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KevinMarks__ Everyone I wanted to bicker with
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KevinMarks__ Mark87 and danlyke for example
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GWG KevinMarks__: Anything I can do?
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KevinMarks__ I think that turning the output on the mf2 parser into rss for further processing is like the mathematician making tea
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GWG KevinMarks__: While RSS still has its place, it does seem like a step backward. I can understand RSS -> MF2
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KevinMarks__ S/ on / of /
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KevinMarks__ I'm assuming everyone knows that joke?
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GWG Never heard it before
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KevinMarks__ The mathematician makes a cup of tea: he gets the kettle out of the cupboard, fold it with water, puts it on the stove, waits for it to boil, scalds the teapot, adds leaf tea, pours the booking water in, waits 5 minutes, pours some tea into a cup, adds milk and drinks it
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kylewm is enjoying KevinMarks's literary flourishes. much better than the description from wikipedia
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GWG I'm missing something here
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KevinMarks__ His colleague asks for a cup of tea. So the mathematician empties the teapot and kettle down the sink, puts them back in the cupboard, and now has can apply the existing method
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GWG Oh
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GWG Missed the last part
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KevinMarks__ Sorry, took a while to type on the android
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kylewm javascript question, can i catch mouseclicks anywhere inside a div that are not otherwise handled (e.g., by a <a>)
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kylewm for example, in twitter you can click on a tweet to see more details, but that doesn't interfere with clicking on links in the tweet
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KevinMarks__ Can't you add an onclick handler to the div?
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kylewm that's what I do, but as aaronpk pointed out this morning, ctrl-clicking on a link in the div opens the link in a new tab, but *also* activates the onclick handler
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KevinMarks__ Iirc clicks get passed through to container if nothing else eats it first
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kylewm oh... maybe that's not what i do then
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KevinMarks__ Maybe the link needs to have an onclick too that returns false?
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KevinMarks__ Or will that stop the default click behaviour?
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@ThoughtStreams_ “Webmention Abuse” by @joeld https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/522962977516167169)
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kylewm i think that that would stop the click behavior
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kylewm man this is sounding like Swing (Java)
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GWG I had planned on doing some stuff in the next few days
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GWG But I have a bad cold. Been sleeping a lot more to try to kill it before I go out of the country
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kylewm sorry to hear that GWG, it seems like it has been going around. try to get some rest
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GWG I did a bunch
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kylewm KevinMarks__: i see, it looks like 'return false' does stop event propgation if you are using jquery
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kylewm what is Movable Type?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Movable Type" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Movable+Type
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KevinMarks__ Movable type is interesting in the database debate. It users a database, but renders all pages to static files by default
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KevinMarks__ s/users/uses/
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Loqi KevinMarks__ meant to say: Movable type is interesting in the database debate. It uses a database, but renders all pages to static files by default
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KevinMarks__ So sites made with it tend to be less fragile and persist longer
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kylewm it looks like it used to be free but is now $600 and is also on github?
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KevinMarks__ That got a bit murky, yes. SixApart ended up with multiple blog engines in different states of openness and payment
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KevinMarks__ I lost track
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KevinMarks__ Movable type, livejournal, vox, some corporate fork of mt, pownce
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@obra @antifuchs No, known is the indieweb software I use to power s.ly (twitter.com/_/status/522972040400105472)
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KevinMarks__ Typepad too
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kylewm.com created /Movable_Type (+807) "stub" (view diff)
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kylewm KevinMarks__ I quoted you^
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@kevinmarks @mattcutts @waxpancake the #indieweb is there for you both (twitter.com/_/status/522975003474939904)
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kylewm I was amused that he said "medium-length" to mean "shorter than something you would post on Medium" https://twitter.com/waxpancake/status/522924066060398592
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@waxpancake I love @mathowie's new blog: http://tilde.club/~mathowie/ I really miss medium-length blogging, I think I'll start doing it again on Waxy. (twitter.com/_/status/522924066060398592)
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GWG Updating my subscription list. Who writes interesting indieweb and such type articles I want to follow?
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@kevinmarks @waxpancake @markjaquith @mattcutts it can support h-feed, h-entry, indieauth and webmention if you edit your template a little (twitter.com/_/status/522979067277373440)
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kylewm I'm contemplating changing my permalinks from type/year/month/day/index/slug to just year/month/slug
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GWG What is index?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "index" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=index
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kylewm hush Loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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kylewm GWG: the index of the post within the day, so if it's the first post of that type that day, it'd be 1
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GWG Oh
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kylewm the main tradeoff is that slugs will be meaningful
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kylewm i mean, they will actually identify the post
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kylewm currently they are optional
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aaronpk kind of interesting to see the list of organizations at the 2010 federated social web summit http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/Organisations
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 5 hours, 20 minutes ago: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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aaronpk !tell tantek person-tagging is a little bit of an itch right now, but will get much itchier as soon as I launch my new "links-to" pages, which show every post on my site that links to e.g. tantek.com
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek fascinating: "I spent a couple hours trying to learn enough javascript to parse JSON to make a nicer tilde.club mobile site for browsing on a phone, but eventually gave up." - http://tilde.club/~mathowie/files/2bd97320fd790f1ed7ae40d1c841858a-24.html
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: person-tagging is a little bit of an itch right now, but will get much itchier as soon as I launch my new "links-to" pages, which show every post on my site that links to e.g. tantek.com
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tantek oops I forgot to not bug aaronpk til after his talk. sorry about that!
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tantek what is person-tagging
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Loqi A person tag (AKA people tag) is a special kind of tag that refers to a specific person by URL rather than just a word or phrase, and is done as an explicit tag by the user, beyond just mentioning a person via hyperlink / h-card http://indiewebcamp.com/person_tagging
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tantek I agree with this: "If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened." from https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/
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@brennannovak @waxpancake that's what I like most about #indieweb posts. Most ppl post things in that middle range! (twitter.com/_/status/523021261233225728)
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@marcthiele Mr. @aaronpk opening #bono14. #IndieWeb http://instagram.com/p/uPzUZfiI-G/ (twitter.com/_/status/523028483027787777)
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@kevinmarks “If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened.” https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/523036595050401792)
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aaronpk well there goes that! http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/p3k
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aaronpk who wants to send me a vouch!
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joskar aaronpk: I tried it at least, I've never sent a webmention before :)
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joskar I hope I did the vouch thing correctly as well...
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joskar I just realized that I probably screwed that one up, so now you should have gotten a second one.
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KevinMarks_ aaronpk: if we're already linked to by you, isn't a vouch unnecessary?
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tantek Congrats aaronpk on being done with your talk!
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cweiske congrats on everyone having woken up from sleep
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aaronpk Danke!
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tantek cweiske huh?
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aaronpk cweiske: es war für mich schwer heute Morgen :-)
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cweiske I just wanted to give an example of a nonsense congratulation for something that happens automatically
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cweiske it would have been different if you congratulated to a successful talk
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cweiske but congratulating to simply finishing
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cweiske a talk ends when nobody speaks anymore
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cweiske so it happens automatically
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tantek cweiske - I see it more like running a race. finishing means you got to the end, which itself is a worthy accomplishment
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cweiske I'd say it would be accomplishment to not finish a talk
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cweiske but you can only verify that at the end of time
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tantek perhaps we have different meanings for accomplishment
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cweiske probably
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cweiske you're us-american
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cweiske we definitely have different meanings for accomplishment
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tantek anyway - no need to mock what was a friendly congrats.
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tantek aaronpk, I do believe you have the first claimed complete implementation of receiving vouches! now someone just needs to send a few to verify.
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tantek that's worth noting for /timeline
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aaronpk Don't add it til we've seen if it works ;-)
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tantek heh
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tantek and, uh, amazing: http://aaronparecki.com/2014/01/01
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tantek do we even have a wiki page somewhere for food tracking?!?
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tantek only reference I found: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/quantified-self
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aaronpk Something is wrong there... The times don't make sense
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aaronpk I was apparently eating in my sleep
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cweiske prev/next buttons do not work
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aaronpk Might have a timezone error on the food import
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aaronpk Yes they are disabled on date perma links right now
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tantek either way, definitely time to create that /food page!
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tantek since now we have an IndieWeb Example!
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aaronpk I started publishing on Oct 3, and imported the backlog today
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ben_thatmust aaronpk, I just pushed my code live from yesterday
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cweiske aaronpk, is map.geoloqi.com down?
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ben_thatmust completely untested but i should be sending and receiving vouch now
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aaronpk hmm shouldn't be down, will check in a minute
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: awesome! If you send me a vouched webmention you should see the vouch URL on the comment!
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ben_thatmust hmm, let me throw in some logging, make sure it works
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ben_thatmust aaronpk, am i going to be able to find a vouch URL is the question..
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aaronpk Use the wiki!
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ben_thatmust oh, i don't manually submit my vouch, it tries to find it on its own
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ben_thatmust but we shall see
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ben_thatmust if it doesn't go through, i'll resubmit via curl
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aaronpk Oh right
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ben_thatmust well i clearly broke my webmention sending
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ben_thatmust not even pulling it out of the queue
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ben_thatmust or putting it in to the queue for that matter
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ben_thatmust well then
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ben_thatmust sent by curl and got 202 back
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ben_thatmust https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/AYZfashK
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aaronpk Oh shoot I just realized I forgot to restart my background process after the update
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ben_thatmust i have to go, i'll be back in about an hour
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aaronpk Ok it's running
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aaronpk I didn't see yours come through successfully but I'm ssh'd from my phone so I can't really read the console
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aaronpk Also I sent myself a bunch of webmentions and I'm not sure why. I should probably disable sending myself webmentions
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cweiske I did that
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cweiske to test if you vouch yourself
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aaronpk oh hah
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aaronpk Thanks?
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cweiske do you manually approve webmentions?
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aaronpk My laptop ran out of battery so I'll have to find a plug at the next break
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aaronpk No it's all automatic right now
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cweiske then I wonder why the comments did not show up
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aaronpk It is entirely possible that I horribly broke my site
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aaronpk Need electricity to figure this out
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@danlyke @gwenners do you have any coding inclination? The http://IndieWebCamp.com folks are thinking about better ways to do this ... @rivenhomewood (twitter.com/_/status/523103186962239488)
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aaronpk whew found an outlet
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: heh this vouch URL doesn't actually link to your site: https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/AYZfashK
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aaronparecki.com edited /User:Ben.thatmustbe.me (+1) "https" (view diff)
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aaronpk laurakalbag is giving a plug to Known here!
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notizblog.org edited /site-deaths (+161) "added Spreadly" (view diff)
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@franatique Hey #indieweb folks. Do you know of any free and open indie user auth service? Maybe the crowd at #bono14 can help? (twitter.com/_/status/523118247139639296)
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@ixisio RT @franatique: Hey #indieweb folks. Do you know of any free and open indie user auth service? Maybe the crowd at #bono14 can help? (twitter.com/_/status/523118603856773120)
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@aaronpk @franatique What exactly do you mean "user auth service"? There's https://indieauth.com of course #bono14 #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/523119101305036800)
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ben_thatmust yeah, i saw that, your code doesn't unify http/https
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ben_thatmust the wiki links to http thats why
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aaronpk no actually /irc-people links to your wiki user page, not your website!
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ben_thatmust yes it does
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ben_thatmust look at my icon
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aaronpk oh! sneaky
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ben_thatmust the text links to my user page the icon links to my page
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ben_thatmust its not me, thats the template
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aaronpk ok well I found a totally unrelated bug which I am fixing
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ben_thatmust i resubmitted with http
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ben_thatmust woah, i got 400
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aaronpk you posted to an expired endpoint ;)
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ben_thatmust sneaky
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ben_thatmust https://aaronparecki.com/webmention/tDrjvc_m
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aaronpk yeah yeah give me a sec ;)
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aaronpk I found a bug
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ben_thatmust oh sorry
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@aaronpk @franatique It supports SMS, email (via Persona), and now GPG auth: https://indieauth.com/gpg (twitter.com/_/status/523122225692418049)
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aaronpk i'm supposed to check that the vouch links to the source domain without rel=nofollow, right?
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ben_thatmust correct
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ben_thatmust i'm probably going to be submitting a bunch since I am testing, sorry
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cweiske nice idea that hidden iframe to check if web+action works on /indie-config
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aaronpk cool. realized I had forgotten that part since it's not explicitly mentioned on the vouch page
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aaronpk cweiske: yeah! that's some neat work going on there! I still haven't quite got my head around it all
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cweiske that would also solve the discovery problem for my web+fork button
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cweiske but i'd like to have buttons that work completely without javascript
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cweiske and use javascript only to discover if the protocol is registered
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aaronpk if you can figure out a good way to do that it would be a great addition to the wiki page!
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aaronpk that sounds like a good goal
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cweiske oh, it's not hard
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cweiske just use web+action:reply as url
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cweiske or web+action:favorite
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cweiske (and add the url as parameter
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cweiske like
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cweiske web+action:reply?url=http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/
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cweiske that way, no javascript is involved when the user clicks the link
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cweiske so no config is needed at all
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cweiske web+action:config would only be needed for discovery
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cweiske (in the hidden iframe)
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: GOT IT
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ben_thatmust excellent
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ben_thatmust i'm still finding a bunch of bugs in my code
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aaronpk heh
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aaronpk so i'm not following the vouch algorithm exactly, because I don't actually want to reject everything right now
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aaronpk so if you send me a vouch, I will go verify it and reject the mention if I don't approve the vouch, even if I approve your domain
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aaronpk which is a little weird, but probably fine for now
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aaronpk i wonder what tantek thinks of that
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ben_thatmust okay, it looks like i'm sending webmentions again
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aaronpk nice
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ben_thatmust at least fallback version
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cweiske the downside of my approach is that the single URL used to handle web+action needs to be a dynamic script
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cweiske handling config, reply, favorite and other actions
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cweiske while the current approach allows different tools to be used for different actions
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ben_thatmust yeah, cweiske, I need to note on that page the other downside that means you can't use more than one client for different action
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ben_thatmust you got there
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ben_thatmust haha
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Loqi haha
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cweiske ben_thatmust, one could use a proxy script
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cweiske that delegates to different tools
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cweiske I think that not requiring javascript has higher priority
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aaronpk yeah the handler could be a web page that links out to different tools
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ben_thatmust okay, now how to instrument this thing correctly... oy
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aaronpk coding is hard
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cweiske now I finally have something indie to add to my website and semanticscuttle
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ben_thatmust well i'm using a modified version of menion-client-php
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aaronpk cweiske++
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Loqi cweiske has 15 karma
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aaronpk oh man, apparently i'm not de-duping webmentions on short URLs
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aaronpk now there are two of yours because you sent one with the shorturl as the source
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ben_thatmust yeah, sorry, my automated version sends it as short
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ben_thatmust wait, did that automated one come with a vouch?
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ben_thatmust the shorturl one that is
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aaronpk it did not
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ben_thatmust didn't expect it to
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ben_thatmust unless you linked to someone who i have in my list
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ben_thatmust oh crap
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cweiske why web+action and not web+reply, web+favorite, web+bookmark?
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ben_thatmust my whole vouch list just got overweritten
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Loqi lolz
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aaronpk oops
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ben_thatmust helps if i have a where clause on that update
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ben_thatmust its been happening for a while
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ben_thatmust i need to go over them all now
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ben_thatmust none of my links survived
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aaronpk aww
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snarfed hi guys!
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aaronpk hi!
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snarfed so...vouch.
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snarfed i've only followed it at a high level. i'm guessing there's no obvious vouch i could send with bridgy wms...? and/or it's maybe too early to implement anything in bridgy?
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message on 10/16 at 6:12pm: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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aaronpk there probably isn't actually a reasonably vouch you can send, because it would rely on the person you're sending the WM to to have linked to bridgy
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aaronpk i'm thinking about a different way to handle it though
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snarfed aaronpk: right, i figured as much.
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snarfed ok!
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snarfed whitelisting also seems reasonable. it is a bit of a special snowflake
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aaronpk for the silos that bridgy supports, i might take twitter.com/t and turn it in to t.twitter.com then do the normal approval process
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ben_thatmust fore right now i have bridgy whitelisted
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ben_thatmust so to not deal with it
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aaronpk but since twitter users can't send a vouch it would basically just prevent replies from people i'm not connected to, which may not actaully be what I want
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ben_thatmust i figure i'm not as worried about that case since the silos tend to handle spam on their service
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aaronpk maybe I can use it to auto-approve or put into a moderation queue or something
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ben_thatmust twitter might become a problem i suppose
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aaronpk but right now bridgy is whitelisted
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gRegor` Morning, indieweb
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ben_thatmust okay, i have my vouch list rebuilt again
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snarfed yeah. if the whitelisting works, maybe deprioritize anything more compicated
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ben_thatmust hah
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snarfed regardless, thx, answers my q
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snarfed hey gRegor`
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ben_thatmust aaronpk, just sent another, but that one should (hopefully have contained a vouch
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ben_thatmust any luck?
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aaronpk it didn't have a vouch
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ben_thatmust blah
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ben_thatmust i responded to that page specifically because i knew i could find a link to kartik's site there
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aaronpk wait maybe i looked at the wrong one
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aaronpk nope no vouch
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@justagwailo Webmention Abuse https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/523138376170766337)
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ben_thatmust YES, that time it should have sent the vouch no problem
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ben_thatmust it was trying to send with a url from your page, since it know about that one
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/webmention/HF0ATGYH
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aaronpk it sent a vouch
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aaronpk but it doesn't link to the source because shorturl!
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ben_thatmust hmmm
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aaronpk and I can't follow all redirects on the vouch URL looking for a match
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ben_thatmust the first thing i do when i receive a webmention is pull that page and use the true URL not the short one
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ben_thatmust so then all you have to do is look for the short OR the redirected one
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aaronpk oh man
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aaronpk no I think your shortener is messing it up
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aaronpk you sent source=http://btmb.me/index.php?route=blog/shortener&eid=5M
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ben_thatmust woah, yeah, thats not right
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aaronpk whatever you send needs to be present on the vouch URL without following any redirects
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ben_thatmust that will never work in practice
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aaronpk why?
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ben_thatmust it seems fairly reasonable to assume that if a person has a url shortener they are sending with it
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aaronpk why wouldn't you just send the canonical URL?
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ben_thatmust bridgy caused that
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ben_thatmust in syndication it will use the url sent, if i send the canonical then all posts will have the canonical not the short
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aaronpk is this because bridgy publish?
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ben_thatmust yeah
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk i think that should be changed, not the vouch algorithm
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aaronpk because bridgy publish is kind of a weird overloading of webmention
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ben_thatmust its not the vouch algorith, thats basic webmention, if someone sends you a short url you should be testing for its redirect first
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ben_thatmust you have to pull the page anyway
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aaronpk for example bridgy publish could parse your mf2 looking for a shorturl property
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ben_thatmust why not just check the resolved url
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ben_thatmust it could, but then it doesn't have an indicator of if you want short or canonical
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ben_thatmust it just assumes?
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aaronpk presumably it's a safe assumption to use shorturl if present?
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aaronpk anyway I don't think that should be affecting this discussion
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ben_thatmust agreed
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aaronpk I would rather leave out any artifacts of how bridgy publish works when considering this
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ben_thatmust okay, but basically your method says that you have to send the canonical URL, or actually, you have to send the exact url that is mentioned on a site
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ben_thatmust i'm saying if they refer to the canonical I don't think sending a shortURL is unreasonable. You HAVE to resolve the page as part of the webmention process
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ben_thatmust to make sure my post even has a reference to yours
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aaronpk right now my implementation looks for a string match of the source value in the HTML of the vouch page
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tantek the source *domain*
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aaronpk agh yes
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aaronpk ( that was my bug earlier ;) )
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tantek which I think is a reasonable requirement
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aaronpk ben is saying I should be looking for a string match of the fully-resolved source URL, in the case that the source URL given sends a 301
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tantek I think that's backwards
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ben_thatmust i send all my webmentions with short URLS, which is fine for standard webmention, since the last step does source -> target
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ben_thatmust implicitly you resolve
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tantek because it's more likely that the vouch may be "old" and hence refer to and older URL of yours
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tantek s/and older/an older
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Loqi tantek meant to say: because it's more likely that the vouch may be "old" and hence refer to an older URL of yours
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Loqi [mention] http://jonathanfrei.com/2014/10/the-personal-site linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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ben_thatmust canonical vs redirect.. either one could be older
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ben_thatmust its just what they entered at the time
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tantek disagreed, you control what you send in the webmention, you don't control what the vouch has on its page
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tantek "what you send" is present
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tantek vouch page is in the past
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ben_thatmust okay, i can agree with that
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ben_thatmust interestingly that could make it possible for me to send vouches that have their own internal redirects, t.co for example (if i figure out some way to track the URL used on the vouch page)
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ben_thatmust not sure why it sent the wrong version of the URL anyway, that was pretty messy
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke edited /User:Www.flutterby.net_user:danlyke (+454) "Evolving a personal involvement motivation statement" (view diff)
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tantek nice
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@mirrorkill http://indiewebcamp.com/ RT @NickMargerrison Social media is a bridge. Use it to reach people but don't build a house on.. #myspace #twitter (twitter.com/_/status/523146995629043712)
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tantek aaronpk what I think of what? reject unapproved vouches?
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aaronpk no, my pseudo-implementation
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tantek you shouldn't bother checking the vouch if you already approved the source
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Loqi yea
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aaronpk i'm not following the flowchart exactly right now for testing purposes and to not reject all vouch-less mentions
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aaronpk so if you send a vouch at all I run it through the vouch flow
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tantek for testing purposes? I guess that makes sense?
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aaronpk at some point I'll switch out of testing mode, but probably not for a while
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aaronpk like until there are at least several other vouch sending implementations
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tantek snarfed - re: bridgy and vouch - I think we assumed any "approval" algorithm would whitelist bridgy
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tantek re: bridgy being weird overloading of webmention - rather bridgy is a legitimate webmention spoofer
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aaronpk no
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aaronpk bridgy publish
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aaronpk (yes bridgy is a legitimate webmention spoofer but that's not what I was referring to)
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tantek oh right - yeah that is a bit odd use of webmention
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tantek bridgy BAAS is a legitimate webmention spoofer - that's the actual challenge we have to solve IMO
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tantek I agree with "leave out any artifacts of how bridgy publish works when considering this"
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danlyke So I like what it's enabling, but Bridgy seems to me to be, by definition, an intermediate step that we hope to deprecate. So can be treated as a special case for now.
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ben_thatmust aaronpk tried again, this time it should be sending canonical
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tantek danlyke - we can think of all of POSSE as an intermediate step that we hope to deprecate
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aaronpk it sent the same value for target and vouch!
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tantek as we can assume that all silos will likely die in 10-15 years
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ben_thatmust oh, hah, its because it sees that there is a link on your site, its outsmarting me
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ben_thatmust you should be a good vouch for youself damnit
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmust there, i deleted that entry and resent
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ben_thatmust next time that link is clicked it will pick it up again
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aaronpk now you got the werid source in there
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danlyke tantek, maybe, I still see POSSE as the mechanism for commenting and likes, but Bridgy is about enabling non-cooperative sites, no?
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ben_thatmust what the hell
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ben_thatmust the source has the index= junk
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ben_thatmust that should only ever be doing that when it hits my htaccess thats how it rewrites to the code
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ben_thatmust i used the same exact code though... so weird, it should have that cached
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tfontaine Isn't portal.zimbra drupal based?
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tfontaine whoops :)
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tantek danlyke - when all sites are either indie or support webmention directly, there's no more need for POSSE.
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tantek for comments, likes, anything. POSSE and backfeed are about enabling non-cooperative sites in general. Bridgy is BAAS (backfeed as a service), and Bridgy Publish is PAAS (POSSE as a service).
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danlyke tantek ah, I have been interpreting Webmention as an implementation of POSSE.
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cweiske now I remember again why I didn't use the hidden iframe route for web+fork with phorkie: http://fotostore.cweiske.de/screenshots/2014-10-17%20chromium%2034%20iframe%20web%2Baction%20request.png
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cweiske chromium 34 opens a popup whenever an unregistered url is opened
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ben_thatmust okay, aaronpk, i know i sent it right this time, i checked the payload just before curl sent it
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tantek cweiske that's why we use promises to complete the web+action URL resolution
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cweiske tantek, no
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cweiske I get the same with the promise
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tantek o rly
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cweiske ye
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cweiske s
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cweiske tried both with and without promise
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tantek please share exactly what you're doing to cause that with voxpelli
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tantek because when he did it it worked in Chrome and Firefox - no popups/alerts
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ben_thatmust the promises bit was definitely something i had wanted to get working at IWC
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tantek I'm still working on getting it working myself.
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tantek ben_thatmust: you and me both
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tantek I decided it was more important to refine vouch
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ben_thatmust all my links edit, delete, repost links have been marked up for it
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ben_thatmust just don't have it working yet :)
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tantek I need to retry with voxpelli's latest instructions
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cweiske http://p.cweiske.de/143
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ben_thatmust oh, i remembered something else i didn't bring up at IWC, if you are logged in to my site, you get an EDIT / delete link on your own comments
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tantek cweiske: I'll let you know my results when I get it implemented
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tantek appreciate the heads-up
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tantek ben_thatmust++ whoa that's an awesome use-case for IndieAuth consumption!
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Loqi ben_thatmust has 2 karma
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ben_thatmust well, pending aaronpk's confirmation, i am sending webmention + vouch automatically now
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tantek or rather Web Sign-in in general
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cweiske tantek, maybe newer versions of chrome behave differently
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ben_thatmust obviously it requires that the user's MP endoint support edit/ delete, which there aren't many
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke created /UTF-8 (+276) "Created page with "UTF-8 is a way to encode Unicode characters in variable number of bits per character. Although it allows for the millions of characters that Unicode can support, UTF-8 encoded t..."" (view diff)
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tantek cweiske - I take your word for it, I'm going to try implementing and document my results with specific browser versions.
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tantek ben_thatmust: in that case why not go all the way and *creating* comments? (via MP - since the "create" verb is what folks already supporting MP support)
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ben_thatmust good point I really should have that
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ben_thatmust i want to button up vouch first
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ben_thatmust need to practice what i preach on the 'search for a whitelist' part
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tantek ben_thatmust: does this comment editing UI require that the user give your website MP permissions to fully create/edit/delete posts on their own site?
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aaronpk I see it there!
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aaronpk Check my /mentions page! It's at the top
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ben_thatmust oh cool
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ben_thatmust tantek, currently I only ask for post access, and obviously its web-action so they should ideally be directing back to their own site
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ben_thatmust i need to go through what access it requests
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ben_thatmust don't know why it has my name twice aaronpk
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aaronpk Yeah I saw that
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aaronpk So you have two name properties?
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ben_thatmust really needs to review all his markup
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aaronpk Check it in the pin13 parser really quick
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ben_thatmust i copied it from sempress, it has both mf and mf2 classes on it
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ben_thatmust so it should have class='name p-name'
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aaronpk Well anyway we got it to work!
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tantek URL?
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tantek is this the first webmention+vouch comment sent to a webmention+vouch receiver and verifier?
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gRegor` I think there's still some bugs in php-mf2 wrt de-duping legacy mf from mf2
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ben_thatmust tantek http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/10/17/1/vouch
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tantek.com edited /sign-in-use-cases (+905) "split commenting into inline commenting UI vs. local comments" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmust: feel free to iterate on http://indiewebcamp.com/sign-in-use-cases#inline_commenting_UI
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ben_thatmust oh, and for the UI, no, it will display either way, if they route to my MP client, it will ask then there
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ben_thatmust its not done inline at the moment
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aaronpk Oy, I need an option to load only the last few lines of irc in the logs. The page is so big it won't load on this terrible Internet connection
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tantek like /irc/today/less ;)
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aaronpk tantek: this is related to the thing I mentioned about my implementation not following the algorithm exactly
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aaronpk Since ben's site already passes my source approval, he would have no way of testing sending vouched webmentions to me cause it would always ignore the vouch
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aaronpk So instead I always test the vouch URL if present
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tantek that's a nice UI touch
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tantek might be a good "should" to help promote vouch awareness
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tantek as a differentiator from pingback
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aaronpk Showing "vouched for by ____"?
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aaronpk I should maybe link the word "vouched" to the wiki page
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Loqi yea
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snarfed PSA for anyone looking for a name/domain for their indieweb project: want granary.io? i was going to use it, but i probably won't any more
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snarfed (the conceptual pun is, silos *hold* grain, granaries *distribute* it)
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gRegor` Hiyoooo
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gRegor` snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 48 karma
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+1228) "why, how to, IndieWeb Examples" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - sure, linking "vouched" to /Vouch makes sense as a useful teachability point, and I just made /Vouch more approachable as well (improved summary, ToC, new Why section, and How to)
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gregorlove.com edited /UTF-8 (+27) "stub, dfn" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /utf8 (+19) "r" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - re: checking valid URLness of vouch URL - I think that ought to be done at the same time as the others. since validity check should be super-cheap computationally (zero IO), clustering it makes sense.
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tantek rather than assumed to be part of "approve vouch?" step
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aaronpk I wonder if it makes sense for current implementors to do it the way I have and always verify vouches even if the source is approved, just so there are more testable implementations
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+35) "/* Flow Chart */ check vouch validity if present same time as URL validity for other params" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk , sure I'll quickly write it up as an option
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aaronpk Cool
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tantek async only right?
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aaronpk Well I in general only like doing that kind of thing async so yes
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tantek right, I'll only document this because you walked the walk first.
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aaronpk Oh also if you send me an un-vouched webmention from a source I don't approve, you get a nice warning message saying I might not accept this unvouched in the ear future and link to the wiki
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ben_thatmust yay, okay now i check all rel=me links within the same domain too
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ben_thatmust when searching for someone i can use as a vouch
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ben_thatmust that way if someone links to a contacts page, or whitelist page, like i do, i can easily find them that way
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aaronpk I don't understand all this magic you're doing yet ;-)
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aaronpk But I did start logging referers
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+679) "/* How To */ Webmention with Vouch testing support (without rel=nofollow)" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust haha, its not bad
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tantek aaronpk: http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch##Vouch%20testing%20support
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+35) "/* Aaron Parecki */ Webmention with Vouch testing (unvouched warning option)" (view diff)
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aaronpk Sweet thanks
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tantek noted your warning option too - though I'd expect others to 449 that path
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aaronpk Again that's temporary until there are more sending implementations
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tantek hence " in the near future. "
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ben_thatmust so given a URL, X, that i am responding to, and a list of referrers to me, R, (that i verified are good and don't use rel=nofollow), download page X and search for all links without rel=nofollow. for each of those, check them against my list R, if R(X) returns a value, i'm done. if none are found, i move on to checking the base domain. and repeat. if still none are found, i look for all rel=me links that are on in the
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ben_thatmust domain, and repeat (the idea being to find internal rel=me links to /about /contacts /whitelist etc)
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tantek like aaronpk, I'm not totally following ben_thatmust
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aaronpk Once there are a couple examples of easy vouch sending implementations then I'll switch it
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tantek sounds like something you could document on your project documentation wiki page?
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tantek what is food?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "food" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=food
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tantek aaronpk ^^^ since you implemented first ;)
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aaronpk About to sit down for dinner, so possibly later tonight
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke edited /UTF-8 (+1) (view diff)
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tantek so you're going to do food, then write about it. ok that's fair ;)
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aaronpk I will even use it as the linked example ;-)
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aaronpk Tho it may be in German
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tantek aaronpk - still working on timezone issues for food posts? http://aaronparecki.com/2014/01/01 shows you eating in your sleep
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aaronpk Indeed. Didn't get to check that out yet
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Postly (+36) "now sending webmentions with vouch!" (view diff)
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tantek ben_thatmust: that reads like you receive vouches too ;)
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gRegor` What is noms?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "noms" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=noms
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ben_thatmust i do (i think)
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ben_thatmust but untested yet
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tantek.com created /noms (+18) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /nom (+18) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` :)
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tantek oops that's wrong
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aaronpk Ah crap it's an am/pm thing
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ben_thatmust omnom?
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aaronpk Ohhh because there's something at 12am
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aaronpk Dang
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ben_thatmust noms? isn't that french for names?
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ben_thatmust hate that 12am / 12pm thing, always gets me
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ben_thatmust thats why i use 12:00 / 24:00
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tantek.com edited /nom (+177) "actually, a nom is a thing" (view diff)
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aaronpk or 0:00
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tantek.com edited /noms (-1) "r nom" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust japan would show open times like 08:00 - 26:00
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tantek ben_thatmust: I have photos posted of that somewhere
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ben_thatmust because day wrapping could confuse between 12/24 hour
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ben_thatmust as they switch back and forth
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aaronpk Problem is my source data is kind of messy
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aaronpk I should post a screenshot of it
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aaronpk I'm also not super happy with the food posts on my site, they take up a lot of space
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aaronpk I want to make them way smaller somehow
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gRegor` diet-food posts ;)
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tantek aaronpk - you can apply post clustering to adjacent posts of the same type in a stream
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aaronpk That helps a little
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tantek that's what FB does
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aaronpk Still want to show the dates of each
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tantek you mean times
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aaronpk Hm need to see an example of that from FB
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aaronpk Yes times
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tantek which works well on a horizontal clustering
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tantek it's called a timeline
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KevinMarks_ with brid.gy and vouch, would the idea be to see if you follow them on twitter?
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tantek KevinMarks: need context
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aaronpk KevinMarks_: yes that was my thought
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aaronpk Or whether I've tweeted at them actually
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KevinMarks_ reading scrollback, aaron said he would whitelist brid.gy, but I recall tantek sayign that his queued brid.gy webmentions were spammy
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tantek.com edited /Vouch (+39) "/* Ben Roberts */ postly, domain" (view diff)
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tantek KevinMarks: true! however I realized in discussions last weekend that those spams were manual, not automated
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KevinMarks_ I'm not sure twitter has crawlable evidence for follows any more
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tantek thus not the use-case that vouch is solving
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tantek so it means I need to implement block on my end
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aaronpk I've definitely gotten spam tweets before
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KevinMarks_ right, but that is a possible extension of vouch's utility - to provide a filter for the @ reply problems that twitter has that gamergate is demonstrating
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aaronpk But probably not enough to go through the trouble yet
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aaronpk And the spam accounts are usually deleted quickly, but not before Bridgy sends them to me and they show up on my site
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tantek KevinMarks: gamergate is not automated. not the use-case that vouch solves.
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tantek see /block for solving gamergate abuse/harrasment
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kylewm how do you distinguish automated spam botnets from a thousand people searching on a hashtag and replying with a link to a youtube video that will "explain everything"
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kylewm seems like the same use-case
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KevinMarks_ right, I think vouch can protect for that too
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/seoprofound/status/522990599830372353 is spam
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@seoprofound @markjaquith @waxpancake @kevinmarks @mattcutts c http://www.seoprofound.com/2014/10/markjaquith-waxpancake-kevinmarks-mattcutts-c/ (twitter.com/_/status/522990599830372353)
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KevinMarks_ https://twitter.com/PoobumHeadface/status/522635759568703488 is gamergatery
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@PoobumHeadface @ElizaBarr @kevinmarks @Nopeinator Be honest Eliza, what's the word for people who buy media spin hook, line and sinker? (twitter.com/_/status/522635759568703488)
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tantek aaronpk - opening hours sign in Japan with times til 25:00 and 24:30: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/23526204/in/datetaken/
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aaronpk Nice
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /Postly (+1315) "first pass at explaining my algorithm for vouch" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust you guys will have me for that one i'm sure
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ben_thatmust s/have/hate/
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Loqi ben_thatmust meant to say: you guys will hate me for that one i'm sure
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cweiske tantek, http://dev.chromium.org/developers/linux-technical-faq and http://stackoverflow.com/q/5037535/282601
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cweiske chrome on linux uses xdg-open for protocols it does not understand
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KevinMarks Block is defined in silo terms because they don't filter by default, or rather have stopped doing so
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tantek KevinMarks: nope. /Flickr still gets /block right
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tantek Block is defined in silo terms because they invented it
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tantek speaking of ...
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tantek.com edited /silo (+202) "/* Silo Innovations */ block - Flickr 2005-07-27" (view diff)
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tantek this is really good explanation of block, how it should work, and responding to people who complain about being blocked: https://www.flickr.com/help/contacts/#96 (also cited in the above edit)
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KevinMarks_ I think you're missing my point a bit. Thsisi what I wrote about int that twitter post - the notification cascade problem
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KevinMarks_ vouch has the potential to dampen it down
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tantek yes, secondary side-effect
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tantek very much deliberate
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tantek the other aspect is a bit of a social / psych hack
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KevinMarks_ as joel put it, block is too late: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/523036595050401792
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@kevinmarks “If you have to wade through garbage, the abuse has already happened.” https://thoughtstreams.io/joeld/webmention-abuse/ (twitter.com/_/status/523036595050401792)
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tantek gamergate / troll types are also the type that take offense at being asked to prove themselves in any way, e.g. that someone would "vouch" for them, and thus are unlikely to bother with doing so, purely stopped by their own ego.
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tantek hah - KevinMarks - I quoted that exact quote here in the channel before you tweeted it ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-10-17#t1413532469438
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ShaneHudson Did silos really invent block? I used both forums and I think some IRC clients quite a while ago (early 2000s) that had blocking or at least ignoring.
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KevinMarks_ right, though that was the "mena kids" thing that set of Kathy's first bout of harrassment
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KevinMarks_ I know you did tantek
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tantek ShaneHudson - if you can find citations / descriptions, please write them up!
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tantek IRC clients have /ignore
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kylewm ShaneHudson: tantek: how about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_%28Usenet%29
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ShaneHudson tantek: Okay, I'm off out now but will try to later
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danlyke ShaneHudson killfiles have been around in NNTP clients since the beginning of time.
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tantek killfile is more of a filter
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tantek than block
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tantek but yes, killfiles are a predecessor
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ShaneHudson I never did use Usenet. Bit of a shame really, read a lot of the archives :)
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kylewm hackernews has a weird block
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tantek feel free to add more research to http://indiewebcamp.com/block
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ShaneHudson I only read hackernews through the twitter bot, absolutely abhore the typical comments
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kylewm i stay far away from it, ShaneHudson, but they have a sort of global ban where you don't know youre banned and don't know no one cansee your comments
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gRegor` !tell snarfed it's been a couple weeks. Ready for another bridgy issue? ;) http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/ and subsequent notes in the thread say "No post links found" for twitter replies
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bear the irc mods at twit have implemented a hush feature - it blocks any user from posting but they don't know they have been hushed and only admins can see what they post
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tantek what is hush?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "hush" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=hush
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bear it allows them to silence trolls in a way that blocking doesn't - because they don't then start hopping ip's to get around the ban
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gRegor` That's brilliant
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finchd and easy to implement in your IRC server
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bear i'll add it and then add a reference to /block
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bear yea, it's a custom irc module they have written
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reedstrm ShaneHudson: there's still remnants of usernet out thre, if you know where to look ...
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reedstrm Ah, I see you've already discuss 'plonk' yeah, the usenet 'block at client w/ a killfile' had that affect - you didnt' know your audience had walked away, hence the invention of 'plonk!' to let them know. Really bad for to say 'plonk' then later respond to the individualin question :-)
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reedstrm should clean of point of view in that sentence - I think it switched 3 times!
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reedstrm s/for to say/form to say/
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bear oh - it's called shun not hush
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tantek what is shun?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "shun" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=shun
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bear.im created /shun (+369) "Created page with "{{stub}} '''<dfn>Shun is a custom module added to TWiT's IRC server to allow a moderator to silence a user to the group but not have any indication of the silence for that user<..."" (view diff)
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kylewm aw i like hush better :)
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tantek bear - note /dfn - put <dfn> around *just* the term, not the whole definition
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bear.im edited /shun (+1) (view diff)
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bear oh
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ben_thatmust only problem being the only one sending vouches, is i can't test receiving really
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bear.im edited /shun (+0) (view diff)
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ben_thatmust haha
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bear oh - so the ''' bit is not needed either
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bear huh
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bear.im edited /shun (-6) (view diff)
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tantek the ''' bit is stylistic
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kylewm happy to send you vouches via curl, ben_thatmustbeme
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bear yea, i've been reading gRegor` 's edits to try and improve my additions
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bear.im edited /block (+11) "add shun to the see also list" (view diff)
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kylewm bear: are the TWiT channels not (publicly) logged then?
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gRegor` The first use of the term should be in a <dfn>, or optionally, use an explicit p-summary around what Loqi should respond with. Latter is usually not necessary
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Loqi yeah!
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tantek what is TWiT?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "TWiT" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=TWiT
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bear kylewm - not logged at all publicly
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bear they would be a source of abuse if logged online
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kylewm bear: makes sense, and shun kind of seems to depend on that
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ben_thatmustbe__ TWiT : this week in tech twit.tv not really something we need on the wiki i don't believe
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gRegor` realizes he should read back before commenting :)
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kylewm.com edited /StatusNet (+0) "fix double redirect" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /StatusNet (+0) "try again..." (view diff)
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bear.im edited /shun (+19) "add link to TWiT" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbe__ kylewm send away. should prove interesting
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ben_thatmustbe__ of course you are already in my whitelist
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tantek.com created /GNU_Social (+24) "r" (view diff)
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kylewm <b>Parse error</b>: syntax error, unexpected '.' in <b>/home/thatmust/public_html/ben/blog/model/webmention/queue.php</b> on line <b>8</b><br />
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tantek.com edited /GNU_social (-21) "no need to double-cite" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbe__ DOH
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ben_thatmustbe__ kylewm that should fix it
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kylewm.com edited /GNU_social (-55) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ not broken anymore" (view diff)
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kylewm ben_thatmustbe__: sent! got a 202, and it says i am queued
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KevinMarks Er could have a page for TWiT, but only if Leo signs in to the wiki, which he could with Leoville.net
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bear KevinMarks++
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Loqi KevinMarks has 70 karma
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ben_thatmustbe__ kylewm, didn't get the vouch unfortunately, darn
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tantek.com edited /GNU_social (+102) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ mattl.io seems to work, note founder" (view diff)
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kylewm ben_thatmustbe__: did i send it righT? https://gist.github.com/kylewm/93e2e0bbe781e777a8d1
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kylewm also the status page still says queued, should it return 449 or something?
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ben_thatmustbe__ doh, on the whitelist, let me try removing you for that first
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tantek on topic: hey nice microformats markup parsed result! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://mattl.io/notice/2844 - GNU social supports h-entry h-card
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mattl tantek: ++
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tantek mattl - feel free to add your site and GNU social to the top of this list: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry#Examples_in_the_wild
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mattl tantek: can you add for me? On GPRS and mobile.
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squeakytoy scrathes his head
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squeakytoy I have an idea, but its outside indiewebcamp's core principles. But its kinda cool :S
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squeakytoy maybe
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squeakytoy is there a good source/forum/reddit where I can post an idea to get feedback? any recommendations?
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squeakytoy well, I should say its close to windiewebcamp's principles, but just another idea
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kylewm try us, squeakytoy :)
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mattl just don't call us windiewebcamp ;)
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squeakytoy well, basically, the idea is that, lets say all your public data is stored in a single (common and well defined structured) .json file you control. You can store this file wherever you want, for example in dropbox.
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squeakytoy but that fail contains, tweet-ish messages, your public photo-albums, etc, etc
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reedstrm hehe - Freudian slip, much? fail -> file
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squeakytoy thats step 1) https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8183146/temp/christoffer.pettersson.json <-- but contains much more data
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reedstrm squeakytoy: the actualy data, or lots-o-pointers?
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squeakytoy both
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reedstrm s/actually/actual/
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reedstrm awww, no Loqi edit love
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Loqi who, me?
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reedstrm Ah, cause I failed at regex
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squeakytoy and then there will be different services 1) Viewers, that can read in those .json files and present your profile in a neat way 2) organizations/companies that help internet-newbies to create, maintain and host their own .json file
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squeakytoy am i explaining this poorly?
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fiatjaf no.
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fiatjaf please proceed
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snarfed squeakytoy: sounds similar to http://asheville.io/
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Loqi snarfed: gRegor` left you a message 55 minutes ago: it's been a couple weeks. Ready for another bridgy issue? ;) http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/10/17/1/ and subsequent notes in the thread say "No post links found" for twitter replies
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snarfed https://github.com/asheville/spec#readme
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reedstrm Seems like a 'one format to rule them all' sort of suggestion, but ...
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squeakytoy so, for an advanced user they can host and maintain their own public file, for new internet users they can find a free or commercial provider
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squeakytoy reedstrm, yea
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kylewm squeakytoy: also kind of like transmat.io?
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squeakytoy reedstrm, like RSS
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squeakytoy will check those links
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snarfed gRegor`: ugh, sorry. :/ looking
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kylewm squeakytoy: how would you scale JSON to a very very large file?
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fiatjaf sounds more like remotestorage
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snarfed (no kylewm don't do it! :P)
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squeakytoy kylewm, you can either link to other web resources in your "main" json-file, or have one huge json-file
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reedstrm Ashville's PESSO support, looks like.
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kylewm I know there are SAX-type readers for JSON where you don't have to read the whole thing into memory to parse it, but that seems like the exception more than the rule
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squeakytoy kylewm, for example, squeakytoy.json might be the main file, but inside point to sqeakytoy.tweets.json for my tweets, etc, etc, for albms, CV, etc
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snarfed gRegor`: looks like it sent them all to me…? https://www.brid.gy/twitter/gRegorLove
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fiatjaf if you have a lot of "linked" files it starts to become more like a database, or a complex filesystem no one can maintain
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squeakytoy fiatjaf, "who" cant maintain? and it will not become a database, it will become a web :-)
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gRegor` snarfed: Oh, cool. Guess it was lagged?
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fiatjaf it is not a problem if there is some software helping the maintenance
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gRegor` Those replies were showing up on the page, but "No post link found" instead of the sent wm
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snarfed gRegor`: ah, yeah. bridgy only refetches syndication links every 2h, so it may have been that
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tantek "a lot of linked files" - sounds like hypertext
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squeakytoy ^
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fiatjaf I like the idea, but it needs some criticism
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fiatjaf isn't this JSON-LD?
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squeakytoy cool
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squeakytoy yea, i guess its similar to that
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snarfed is embarrased that he still doesn't really know what json-ld is
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snarfed finds a whitepaper to d/l
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tfontaine what is json-ld
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "json-ld" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=json-ld
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tfontaine Sorry, snarfed. I tried. ;)
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squeakytoy so, everyone in here, we just need to agree on a common way to structure up our .json files, then we can create an open social web :-)
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kylewm "just"
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squeakytoy it would be decentralized, and we would own our own data
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fiatjaf remotestorage has "modules", I think
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squeakytoy and anyone can write viewers to browse around profiles and content
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bear their is already a common format that allows for federated linking - html behind known urls
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kylewm bear++
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Loqi bear has 39 karma
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bear how that html gets generated is going to be a conversation that never gets old in indieweb land
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snarfed bear, squeakytoy: and it even has a (mild) json schema. e.g. http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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fiatjaf those "modules" are data models about common things, what attributes these things must contain and helpers for displaying, listing and adding more things
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fiatjaf (I don't know exactly)
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squeakytoy yupp yupp
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fiatjaf so various applications can reuse the modules templates and the uniformized data of various users
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squeakytoy so, is it worth exploring the idea?
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fiatjaf and show/edit the data the way they want
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bear one thing to remember and realize is to avoid going down the rabbit whole of architecture too deep without having paused to implement the ideas
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fiatjaf what is remotestorage
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "remotestorage" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=remotestorage
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bear s/whole/hole/
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Loqi bear meant to say: one thing to remember and realize is to avoid going down the rabbit hole of architecture too deep without having paused to implement the ideas
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gRegor` JSON-L(EA)D: JSON, but heavier
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squeakytoy okay then..
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Mark87 squeakytoy we're big on experimenting here, its worth a shot
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squeakytoy is there a more structure way to get a discussion?
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snarfed squeakytoy: we'd encourage you to try out the existing mf2 schema before inventing your own
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bear squeakytoy - I would suggest finding the core bit of your idea, getting some code written to generate html pages with mf2 in place and then exploring
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snarfed bear++
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Loqi bear has 40 karma
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fiatjaf squeakytoy: I would like it if it gained mass adoption, but I think it is difficult that it will happen, but I think you could join the remotestorage effort, about which I don't know anything else, look at the modules they have: https://github.com/remotestorage/modules/tree/master/src
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gRegor` squeakytoy: IRC is the primary mode of communication, rather than getting bogged down in mailing lists or forums.
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bear if you find something with mf2 + html that is preventing a feature, then *that* is a great time to explore new options
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snarfed squeakytoy: there are mf2 parsers in most language that will convert mf2 html to json, if you really want json
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gRegor` (For indiewebcamp, that is)
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ben_thatmustbe__ kylewm, that worked but it parsed it as a mention, which aren't displayed at the moment
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bear our structured discussions are IRC with links to the indiewebcamp wiki for long form discussions and archiving of thoughts
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kylewm squeakytoy: fiatjaf: be wary of any idea that will only be interesting if it achieves mass adoption : http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns#mass_adoption
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squeakytoy i was just curious
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gRegor` That and documenting our experience on the wiki. Have you logged in to the wiki, squeakytoy? You could document your ideas/experience on your User: page
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bear squeakytoy - curiousity is very much welcome - apologies if all of us responding is a bit overwhelming
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bear we are all excited to hear about new ideas
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gRegor` Totally!
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squeakytoy yea, but isnt really aligned to indiewebcamp
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bear like any community that is growing we have to be careful of how we great new folks :)
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squeakytoy or its principles
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kylewm ben_thatmustbe__: why did it parse as a mention and not a reply?
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fiatjaf it is aligned
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gRegor` If it's about owning your data, it seems pretty inline
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fiatjaf I think
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squeakytoy but it isnt about microformats, etc, etc
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ben_thatmustbe__ not sure, actually when i parsed as mention it had all kinds of issue
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fiatjaf kylewm: I read that, I am aware (since I read)
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fiatjaf :P
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tantek.com created /json-ld (+205) "stub with dfn, see article" (view diff)
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tantek.com moved /json-ld to /JSON-LD "ALL CAPS"
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bear indieweb uses mf2 as a primary way of exchanging data but at it's core it's about owning your message - so if you decide to implement your site with no mf2, so be it
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Mark87 squeakytoy its been my experience that until somebody has something else working on their own site usig something other than microformats, no one will be very excited about it
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bear but, IMO, once you start trying to share info/ideas with others, then mf2 will become very useful
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squeakytoy okay, but to have a page to get a discussion/feedback, is the user-page on wiki the best place?
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squeakytoy or.. should i start a reddit, or
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squeakytoy hm
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bear right, maybe mf2 isn't needed for your site, but we are a dogfood community and really prefer someone who is making a point about something to show how they implemented it
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bear your user page would be a great start
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bear as would a project page where you can state your goals and what features are implemented
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gRegor` Yeah, a lot of us have dedicated project pages on the wiki. Like /Falcon and /p3k
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squeakytoy http://indiewebcamp.com/Projects ?
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gRegor` What is Falcon?
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Loqi http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon
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gRegor` What is p3k?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "p3k" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=p3k
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gRegor` uh
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gRegor` stopwords
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tantek squeakytoy: I'm curious, what on http://indiewebcamp.com/principles do you feel you're not really aligned to? (note that "microformats" is not even mentioned on that page)
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gregorlove.com created /peek (+17) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` What is peek?
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Loqi pзk (pronounced "peek") is the name of the software that runs aaronparecki.com and caseorganic.com http://indiewebcamp.com/peek
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gRegor` boom
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gregorlove.com edited /Falcon (+31) "trying explicit p-summary" (view diff)
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fiatjaf who created mf2?
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bear squeakytoy - first you will need to follow some of the steps in http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+44) "explicit p-summary" (view diff)
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squeakytoy thanks,
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ben_thatmustbe__ kylewm, i'm use using aaronpk's php-comments
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squeakytoy ill look into it tomorrow, need zzzZzzzZzzz now tho :-)
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ben_thatmustbe__ it gets no author data, and thinks its a mention
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squeakytoy thanks all and good night
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Loqi sleep tight!
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tantek.com created /mf2 (+27) "r" (view diff)
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gRegor` fiatjaf: Mostly through gathering examples on the microformats.org wiki and mailing list over the years.
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gRegor` Not sure the core group of people that "started" it
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kylewm ben_thatmustbe__: oh that's interesting! it's because it can't find the author, not because it's a p-in-reply-to h-cite?
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fiatjaf what is the difference between indieauth and web sign-in?
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gRegor` Night, squeakytoy!
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the difference between indieauth and web sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+difference+between+indieauth+and+web+sign-in
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bear what is indieauth
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Loqi IndieAuth is a way to use your own domain name to sign in to websites http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieAuth
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fiatjaf which providers work with indieauth? do they need to implement something, or is just a bad magic that the indieauth server does without they even knowing about?
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tantek fiatjaf - originally I proposed we consider doing a major update to microformats, called microformats2, on 2010-05-02 at Foo East http://microformats.org/wiki/events/2010-05-02-microformats-2-0
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tantek and then have developed / edit it since.
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tantek.com created /the_difference_between_indieauth_and_web_sign-in (+31) "r" (view diff)
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fiatjaf bear: so indieauth is an openid provider that uses web sign-in?
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tantek fiatjaf: that is a true statement but limiting
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tantek indieauth is an implementation of web sign-in and additional sign-in methods (TOTP, Persona, GPG)
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ben_thatmustbe__ maybe someone else can help explain whats going on here https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/17/1/this-explanation-makes-me-think-totpre
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gregorlove.com edited /microformats2 (+158) "dfn + sentence, See Also section" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+104) "more dfn" (view diff)
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fiatjaf right, thank you, tantek
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fiatjaf what happens to the indieweb principles if the government, or someone else, starts stealing the domains from people? is that a possibility?
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fiatjaf what is web sign-in
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "web sign-in" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=web+sign-in
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gRegor` ben_thatmust: What do you mean?
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tantek fiatjaf: yes indieweb depends on DNS, as does the internet as a whole
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tantek what is DNS?
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Loqi DNS is an abbreviation for Domain Name Server and often used to refer to the configuring thereof http://indiewebcamp.com/DNS
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tantek.com edited /microformats2 (+621) "Background" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /web_sign-in (+25) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmust gRegor` php-comments parses that as a mention, with no author data at all
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fiatjaf hum.
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tantek fiatjaf: note that that has already happened: "government, or someone else, starts stealing the domains from people" https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/11/us-government-seizes-82-websites-draconian-future
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gRegor` Ah. I'd have to look at php-comments closer
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tantek fiatjaf: more: someone wrote a Firefox add-on to "undo" this damage, and Mozilla was asked to remove it, but refused: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2011/05/mozilla-resists-us-govt-request-to-nuke-mafiaafire-add-on/
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tantek if anyone thinks that's worthy of documenting, feel free to add it to /DNS perhaps in a vulnerability section
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tantek.com edited /microformats2 (+86) "/* Background */ along with simplification proposals" (view diff)
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tantek bear++ for really good, considerate replies to squeakytoy
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Loqi bear has 41 karma
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bear :)
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cweiske voxpelli, the reply button on your site does not seem to work with webactions
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tantek.com edited /IndieAuth (+24) "linky linky" (view diff)
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cweiske I tried to set some breakpoints, but it does not even try to run loadIndieConfig()
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kylewm ben_thatmustbe__: aaronpk's site was able to parse my reply to this post ... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/10/16/4/originalhipster
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aaronpk waves
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kylewm o/
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loic_m question: do I have to only add the rel="me" links on my web page (or it can work too if there're also on the other pages)?
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ben_thatmust looks like i'll be fixing php-comments
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aaronpk loic_m: you need to add the rel-me links from the page you are using as your identity, usually your home page
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: what's wrong with php-comments?
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loic_m aaronpk> ok, so it's better to only have them on one page (the one I want to use for my identity)
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aaronpk not sure why you'd want them on more than one page, but it won't hurt anything. rel=me is just saying that this other page represents the same person
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gRegor` loic_m: I use <link rel=me> so it appears on all my pages currently, but only because I'm using a single HTML header file.
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loic_m it's just that my publishing tool (homemade) don't allow me to have a specific header at the moment ;)
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aaronpk aha
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gRegor` Shouldn't cause any problems
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loic_m it's the same on every pages :)
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ben_thatmust aaronpk, https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/17/1/this-explanation-makes-me-think-totp gets parsed as a mention, not reply, no author data
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aaronpk it won't hurt anything
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loic_m ok ok
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loic_m great
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: oh I think I might not have added support for that much nesting of things
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aaronpk in-reply-to in your case is an h-cite object. I may only have made it work when it's a URL
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aaronpk pull requests welcome :D
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kylewm aaronpk: it worked on https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/16/3/i-did-that-too-except-i-printed-out
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aaronpk what really?
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aaronpk weird
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kylewm I know for sure that your site doesn't like "like-of" to be an h-cite
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kylewm but I thought it worked with in-reply-to
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kylewm nm
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kylewm it's relegated back to being a mention now
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aaronpk https://github.com/indieweb/php-comments/blob/master/src/indieweb/comments.php#L84
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kylewm ack, nevermind the nevermind
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aaronpk ben_thatmust: are you passing in the $refURL property when calling IndieWeb\comments\parse()?
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cr http://www.passwordstore.org/
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tantek ?
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sparverius that's pretty cool
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ben_thatmustbe__ target https://ben.thatmustbe.me/post/2014/10/16/1/totp_and_you
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sparverius ive been using keepass for a long time and the shitty non-windows support has been holding me back for a while
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ben_thatmustbe__ been a long time since i've looked at this code
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ben_thatmustbe__ $mf2_parsed = Mf2\parse($page_content, $canonical_url);
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ben_thatmustbe__ $comment_data = IndieWeb\comments\parse($mf2_parsed['items'][0], $target_url);
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finchd cr: firefox plugin? that'll do
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tantek and Google search is now worse for my site, than Twitter is for my POSSE copies. WTF.
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aaronpk what happened google!
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tantek I mean, like *historical* search
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sparverius looks like im moving off of keepass
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tantek Google dropped the ball in 2014
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aaronpk makes me want to build an elasticsearch backed indieweb search engine
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sparverius ive been trying to figure out how to rync my passwords around sanely
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sparverius between two local machines
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aaronpk tantek: it occurs to me that in my reply context and comments presentation I should add rel=nofollow to any links that appear in other peoples' posts on my site. does that sound reasonable?
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aaronpk otherwise someon can add a link to my site that can be used as a vouch without me knowing
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tantek aaronpk - sure. you could also do a quick "approval test" of such links and add rel-nofollow if they fail
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aaronpk true!
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tantek minimizing use of rel-nofollow is a good thing
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aaronpk that sounds not very fun, so I'm adding it to my issues list instead of busintg it out right now :)
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aaronpk omg wow my parsing of am/pm was just totally wrong
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tantek am/pm? 24hourtime FTW
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aaronpk it basically only worked when there was a food entry at 12:something
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aaronpk yeah the problem is I was typing freehand text for entries into a notepad doc on my phone for 1yr 3 months
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aaronpk and I was not strict about am/pm or 24hr time
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tantek oh. contextual info needed. got it.
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aaronpk here's an example of my raw data http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/food-entries-2014-03-13-20141017-231824.png
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@kevinmarks @jonnojohnson I look forward to it, and hope it builds on the indieweb protocols we have been working on rather than being a monoculture (twitter.com/_/status/523222272916480000)
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tantek.com edited /federation (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /DNS (+100) "centralized/hierarchical vulnerability/bottleneck" (view diff)
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fiatjaf ?join #cloudant
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ShaneHudson sparverius: How come you're moving off Keepass? That's what I use :)
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sparverius i use linux and windows
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sparverius and keepass is a big monolithic style manager while pass is more the unix way
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sparverius which is nice because when i rsync i can preserve all of the metadata associated with each password
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ShaneHudson Ah okay, I use KeepassX which works on everything. Though I think that is probably quite insecure
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ShaneHudson Oh okay, will have to take a look at pass :)
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bret ShaneHudson: sparverius I use keepass, and sync via bittorrent sync
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Loqi bret: ben_thatmust left you a message 1 day, 9 hours ago: My argument as requested http://btmb.me/s/2q
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Loqi bret: tantek left you a message on 10/16 at 6:12pm: since you're posting photos on your own site per http://indiewebcamp.com/photo#IndieWeb_Examples - how much of an itch is it for you to be able to tag the people in the photos per http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag and even auto-POSSE those person-tags along with your photo?
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ShaneHudson I sync via dropbox... obvious insecure but convinent
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bret ben_thatmustbe++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbe has 1 karma
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bret will check it out
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bret ShaneHudson: as long as you keep a key file off the wire you should be able to trust the encryption
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ShaneHudson bret: Yeah that's what I figured
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bret tantek: i could do it by hand as an example but i still have some serious technical debt I'm catching up on still
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bret tantek: (photo tagging that is)
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aaronpk now that I have this I want photo tagging: http://aaronparecki.com/links-to/bret.io
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: Oh I like that
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aaronpk could just as easily be photos-of/
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tantek wow - photos-of/ would be amazing
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tantek what is photos-of?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "photos-of" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=photos-of
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bret Tag a photo send a WM
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aaronpk "tag" being the operative word
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aaronpk distinct from mentioning them in the caption of the photo
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ShaneHudson You don't need to tag
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ShaneHudson A mention would work fine providing it semantically knew that the person is in the photo. You don't need to say where.
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tantek.com created /photos-of (+567) "stub with dfn, Silo Examples" (view diff)
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aaronpk instagram and facebook support tagging a 2D coordinate along with the person.
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aaronpk flickr supports 2D rectangles or no shapes
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aaronpk ShaneHudson: yes, it's that semantic part that nobody has done yet. didn't say anything about plocation within the photo
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tantek.com edited /photos-of (+164) "Instagram" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: True, I suppose I always relate 'tag' to the rectangle
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tantek.com created /photosof (+23) "Flickr URL path segment spelling" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /photos_of (+23) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk flickr expicitly allows taggin people with no rectangle, so there's prior examples there
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tantek bret - I understand you *could* do it, just wondering how motivate you are to do it.
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tantek Facebook allows tagging people in any post, not just photos, distinct from mentioning them.
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/person-tag#Silo_Examples
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KevinMarks_ twitter supports tagging people in images, but not rects
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ShaneHudson I think that is one of the keystones of social networks, especially facebook. Being able to essentially create content for other people.
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tantek KevinMarks: do you have a URL to view all the photos of you on Twitter?
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ShaneHudson I expect the answer is no - but can the vouch system work for allowing people to view content?
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ShaneHudson For example, there is a lot on Facebook (mostly photos taken by other people) that if I were looking for a job or something, I would probably want fairly private.
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tantek ShaneHudson: one way to answer that question is to ask how do viewing permissions work on photos on Facebook?
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ShaneHudson Yeah I see your point, must be logged in. So log in with indieauth and verfiy against a list of people allowed to see post?
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tantek start from the UI
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tantek e.g. common examples: public (indexable), public (no robots / login required), friends of anyone person-tagged in the photo, friends of the author of the photo, subset of friends of the author of the photo, only the author
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ShaneHudson Friend of friend is interesting, though far too complicated for the moment.
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aaronpk "friend of friend" (or "vouch of vouch" is closer for me now that I'm building lists of inbound and outbound domains
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ShaneHudson 'lists'? You have more than one?
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aaronpk in and out are separate lists yeah
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tantek ShaneHudson: not complicated! friend of friend *is* vouch!
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aaronpk I also quickly remembered in this process that https sites don't send referers
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ShaneHudson tantek: Oh? I've not had time to read it properly (obviously wasn't there at the time), friend of a friend is included in the vouch algorithm?
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tantek.com edited /private_posts (+549) "silo examples, facebook" (view diff)
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tantek ShaneHudson - rough analogy
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ShaneHudson Ah okay
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tantek see /Vouch. Now imagine: A is a friend of C is a friend of B. friend of friend
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ShaneHudson what is vouch
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Loqi The Vouch protocol is an anti-spam extension to Webmention. Webmention with Vouch depends on understanding Webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch
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aaronpk it's not referenced as friend of friend because the relationships between A B and C need not be friend relationships
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tantek precisely
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tantek however you could use /Vouch as a building block to build friend of friend
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tantek with something like, say, XFN
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ShaneHudson I see, that makes sense
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KevinMarks_ good question, tantek - it shows up as a notification
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tantek ShaneHudson: feel free to do more research about how Facebook photos work for you in terms of privacy, and document more here: http://indiewebcamp.com/private_posts#Facebook
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tantek e.g. what icons they use, what precise wording they use "Visible to everyone" etc.
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tantek document that stuff, as it will help driveinform any underyling plumbing
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ShaneHudson Ugh Chrome on Yosemite is having a lot of CSS problems
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tantek s/driveinform/drive\/inform
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Loqi tantek meant to say: document that stuff, as it will help drive\ any underyling plumbing
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ben_thatmust_ there we are
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tantek oops
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+243) (view diff)
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+1) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com created /food (+724) "dfn, indieweb examples and see also links" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /exercise (+11) "linky" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson what is food?
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Loqi Food is a post type that represents eating or drinking particular food or drink http://indiewebcamp.com/food
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ShaneHudson Not sure I agree lol
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aaronpk bahaha
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ShaneHudson Your teacup app looks great btw :)
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tantek.com created /🍲 (+18) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk i can't wait to finish it!
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tantek.com created /☕ (+18) "r" (view diff)
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aaronpk the pebble version I mean
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aaronpk lol tantek
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aaronpk had those ready to go
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tantek.com created /🍺 (+18) "r" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson I can't wait to sort out micropub on my site
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aaronpk tantek: I had an emoji search ready to go tooo but you totally beat me to it
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tantek going to leave the rest of the food emoji as an exercise for the community. cc: tommorris ;)
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ShaneHudson Btw, probably wrong place to mention it but if you know anyone needing small web work done could you send them my way please? No time for a full site build but completely broke :(
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tantek ShaneHudson: does your personal site make it clear you're looking? e.g. "Hire me to help you improve your website!"
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ShaneHudson tantek: Not any more, I had far too many people come about large sites but need to focus on grades and final year project this year, sadly
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tantek perhaps hand the large sites work over to adactio / Clearleft, and make it clear to let them let you know if there's any small site work they hear about
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tantek the "too many people come about large sites" is not useful to you directly but useful as forward value to others who may then help with filtering opportunities for you (which may be too small for them)
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ShaneHudson That's very true. By large I don't mean large by Clearleft's standards but too much for me to do part-time. Definitely a good point though
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aaronpk definitely recommend setting up a network of people you can bidirectionally refer more appropriate projects to
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tantek ShaneHudson - especially if you start by sending referrals - that's extremely effective. (instead of starting by asking for help)
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ShaneHudson Yeah, it was easier when I was taking on work all the time. But that was over a year ago now
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tantek (I mean, asking a specific individual or group for help, asking openly in a forum is fine obviously)
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ShaneHudson tantek: Definitely true
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tantek Try another header on your site and see what happens.
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aaronpk I used to get a ton, anybody want me to refer work their way?
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tantek I wonder if any of this is worthy of writing up in /business-models
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ShaneHudson Okay, will give it a go :) thanks. And sorry to mention it here, not indie! Although doing indieweb freelance would be awesome haha
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tantek especially in a bootstrap section
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aaronpk interesting
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aaronpk before geoloqi I tried bootstrapping a business with small freelance jobs
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tantek ShaneHudson: I disagree - I think it is indie. Specifically, the question of - how can I best use my indieweb site to broadcast that I am available for work?
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tantek what is work?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "work" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=work
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aaronpk what is cash?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "cash" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=cash
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tantek oh I got that one
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aaronpk uhoh
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ShaneHudson Lol
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tantek.com created /cash (+21) "r" (view diff)
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tantek what is $?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "$" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=%24
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tantek what is 💵?
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Loqi payment in the context of the indieweb refers to a feature on an indie web site that provides a way for the visitor to that website to pay (currency, gift card credit, etc.) the person represented by that indie web site http://indiewebcamp.com/%F0%9F%92%B5
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tantek that's better.
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tantek gives Loqi a treat.
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Loqi steps on the treat.
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KevinMarks__ What is keybase
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Loqi Keybase is a GPG key silo http://indiewebcamp.com/keybase
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tantek ShaneHudson: document your experience with broadcasting about work on the /work page
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tantek broadcasting on your indieweb site in particular
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tantek how to, why etc.
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tantek ways to handle work beyond your scope
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ShaneHudson I changed my text a few months ago
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ShaneHudson "Hi, I'm Shane Hudson, a Web Developer
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ShaneHudson from the UK"
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tantek even that would be a useful addition!
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ShaneHudson It used to say "Website", it had number 1 ranking for "website developer" on Google UK. Within 1 week of changing, I lost it completely
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tantek stub the /work page with that example
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kylewm I'm not sure keybase meets the criteria of a silo
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kylewm only "require you to create an account specific to that site"
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aaronpk i'm up way too late
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ShaneHudson kylewm: I think I agree, the keys still work if the silo disappeared.
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aaronpk doing a workshop at the conference tomorrow getting people set up with an indieweb stack on their sites!
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ShaneHudson aaronpk: Up too late? Are you not in the US?
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aaronpk with adactio!
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ShaneHudson Ah :)
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aaronpk in Germany!
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ShaneHudson Ooooh
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aaronpk +0200
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ShaneHudson Nice :)
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aaronpk Gute Nacht!
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aaronpk bis Morgen!
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ShaneHudson Goodnight!
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tantek good night aaronpk! please ask adactio about people-tagging his photos!
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Loqi see you in the morning!
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tantek (as in, is it an itch for home)
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tantek s/home/him
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Loqi tantek meant to say: (as in, is it an itch for him)
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ShaneHudson I think he mentioned it once before
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ShaneHudson tantek: How's this? "I'm currently available for small front-end website jobs. My book, JavaScript Creativity is available at Amazon UK or US!"
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Loqi [mention] https://david.shanske.com/articles/2014/10/02/site-setup/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress (webmention)
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GWG I definitely should have automated it
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GWG snarfed: Did you just favorite?
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snarfed GWG: yup
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GWG snarfed: I just rewrote the Syndication Links plugin to use an extensible format. I'm editing the posts manually. I probably should automate it, but I've been afraid since that auto-post thing I did a while back
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tantek ShaneHudson - sounds good!
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tantek be sure it's part of your /homepage /h-card e.g. perhaps in a p-note property
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GWG I just broke backward compatibility on something.
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ben_thatmust_ ahhhhhhh
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ben_thatmust_ kylewm aaronpk, the type doesn't include h-entry, that test fails
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GWG ben_thatmust_: I have been posting my plugins, but I don't think anyone else is using this one.
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ben_thatmust_ huh?
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GWG ben_thatmust_: Thought you were replying to my comment about breaking backward compatibility on something I think only I use
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GWG You were responding to something further up, I guess.
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ben_thatmust_ oh no, was hitting errors parsing earlier
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kylewm ben_thatmust_: (you are name-hopping a lot today) what makes you think it doesn't include h-entry? it looks like it does to me
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ben_thatmust_ yeah, sorry, i'm swapping between my laptop and desktop
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ben_thatmust_ it does, but on the body tag
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ben_thatmust_ the comments parser is looking for h-entry and only finds h-cite
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ben_thatmust_ interesting
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kylewm ben_thatmust_: does it work on barnaby's site?
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kylewm he puts h-entry on the <html> tag
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ben_thatmust_ `hmm, nope, doesn't look that way
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ben_thatmust_ hmm, so its not a problem with php-comments, but php-mf2
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ben_thatmust_ its not grabbing the h-entry at all
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tantek huh URL?
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ben_thatmust_ https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/10/17/1/this-explanation-makes-me-think-totp
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ben_thatmust_ trying with php-mf2 results in no h-entry