#indiewebcamp 2014-09-19

2014-09-19 UTC
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bret KartikPrabhu you should sign your emails like: -K Thanks
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bret XD
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KartikPrabhu bret: ha! :)
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ShaneHudson snarfed: I've modified it a bit to hopefully give better error messages but I am not sure why my webmention endpoint wasn't working. Providing the source and target was sent properly, it should work. All my tests from indiewebify.me worked :) So hopefully that was a one off!
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snarfed ShaneHudson: sounds good!
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@ripvansabre Spending some time with the indieweb movment. (twitter.com/_/status/512759344157294592)
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ShaneHudson Got my endpoint working for users now too, in that it is no longer a white page :)
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snarfed ah nice
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: so i modefied the reply URL on my note here: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/shanehudson-real-life but still no dice. does your endpoint not handle fragmention links?
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ShaneHudson That worked
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ShaneHudson I think it isn't showing up because of the fragmention, but it has made it onto my dashboard
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KartikPrabhu oh! I got an empty status in the response (was expectign 200)
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ShaneHudson Will manually edit, to see :)
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ShaneHudson Hmm ok you should have got 200
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: could be that my UI is not showing the 200 for some reason... hope you don't mind if I use this to test and send some repeat mentions?
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ShaneHudson Hmm I have some improvements I will have to make, but after manually pulling out the post slug it shows up (albeit not nicely, doesn't have your name for instance) https://shanehudson.net/2014/05/24/shane-hudson-and-the-magic-of-real-life
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ShaneHudson Of course you can
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ShaneHudson Not too many though! Manually deleted like 60 the other day, accidently spammed myself
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ShaneHudson Playing around with Opera, I like the way their dashboard now looks :) https://www.dropbox.com/s/0a5ovyjda8rmz9l/Screenshot%202014-09-19%2001.53.37.png?dl=0
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: are you using a mf2 parser? there should be a p-name on my name
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ShaneHudson I am but I must not be storing everything I need. I was testing based on bridgy, but obvoiusly that has names in the content
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KartikPrabhu ok cool! you can use this post as testing then... I don't mind the GET requests.
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ShaneHudson Thanks :) There are quite a few upgrades I need to do to my webmentions. Do you parse the mf2 when you store, or do you store the whole thing and parse on view?
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: I parse and store only the relevant fields in my DB. Have some long term plans to ditch the DB and just store the parsed mf2
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KartikPrabhu Worpdress folk. Is the only way to change WP functionality, through writing a plugin? I wand to add some fields to the default post thingie... ? Can I not just edit some PHP object or something
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ShaneHudson You should be able to edit functions.php
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Loqi I agree
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ShaneHudson Although I cannot remember the commands off the top of my head
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: that is for some theme right? Are usual post fields in a themes funtions.php?
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ShaneHudson Well the theme includes custom/user settings for wordpress, as you can only have one theme at once
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KartikPrabhu aah ok
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KartikPrabhu will investigate. this whole wp plugin thing is quite annoying. you've to jump through so many hoops to do something simple
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ShaneHudson Yeah that is one reason I moved to Craft, as much as I love Wordpress.. the plugin API is horrid, and it was all starting to feel too cluttered
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kylewm ShaneHudson: I was only storing parsed microformats and "interpreting" on demand until recently...changed for performance reasons
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kylewm pulling the fields out of the microformats was fast enough but scrubbing unsafe html out of nested content and stuff was taking non-neglible amounts of time
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ShaneHudson kylewm: Do you now store the whole thing as well as the bits you want? I currently only store the content, but quite often I may want parts I hadn't thought of
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ShaneHudson Ah
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kylewm I'm still storing the full html and parsed json
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: I did look at Craft. Thier CMS looks very neat, but the Craft Client pricing is a bit steep
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ShaneHudson Yeah it definitely is
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KartikPrabhu currently investigating http://wagtail.io/ a Django CMS
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ShaneHudson You can get by on a personal license, but it is far easier with the client one
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ShaneHudson Django is quite nice
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ShaneHudson kylewm: Hmm ok, maybe I should do it more like that :)
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KartikPrabhu ShaneHudson: since this one is a portfolio+blog site, it would need 2 channels which the Craft Personal does not have.
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ShaneHudson Ah ok yeah. You could have custom types. A 'Site' channel with 'portfolio' and 'post' entry types. Though I split webmentions/comments into a channel called 'Interactions'
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ShaneHudson Right I must be off, goodnight!
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Loqi night
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kylewm ShaneHudson: I'm actually OK with losing fidelity on older comments and contexts, so I might ditch the archive
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kylewm ta ta
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I think WordPress has custom fields built in? Or it's a plugin.
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: http://codex.wordpress.org/Custom_Fields
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gRegor` No coding necessary, as far as I remember.
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gRegor` Well, some simple PHP code to display it in the theme, but not to add the custom fields themselves.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yeah but that sets aritrary fields values. I just want to add things like syndications links for example
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parzzix good evening
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KartikPrabhu hi parzzix
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parzzix hello KartikPrabhu
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parzzix i tried withknow self hosted install today, none of the plugins worked
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: I don't follow
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gRegor` Why not use a custom field and separate the URLs with spaces?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: in a custom field you have to enter both the key and the value. If this were me that would be fine. But I don't want my friend to enter "syndication" "twitter" everytime
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gRegor` Do you have to each time, or does 'syndication' show as an option on subsequent pages? I thought it did.
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gRegor` I thought it cached custom field names used already
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KartikPrabhu oh hmm good point. more to explore
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kylewm hey parzzix thanks for turning me on to Bad Voltage via your Ghost blog...I really like it :P
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GWG KartikPrabhu: You want Syndication Links in metadata?
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GWG KartikPrabhu: https://github.com/dshanske/syndication-links
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GWG May I be of service?
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GWG Still under development
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parzzix your welcome kylewm ...I just to blog down, happy you caught it before I did.
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GWG I need to check if I pushed the last changes.
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parzzix took i mean..
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parzzix Has anyone else had issues with Known and loading plugins on self hosting?
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parzzix kylewm, If one was to install red wind, would I start up with a django? I'm very rookie mind you.
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kylewm parzzix: it doesn't use django, you'd just run it with "uwsgi uwsgi.ini"
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parzzix kylewm, what version of python?
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kylewm 3.3+
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Loqi !calc 3.3+
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parzzix so there is no database for redwind kylewm ? everything is stored in txt?
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parzzix kylewm, never mind...sql
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kylewm parzzix: ya, see https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/09/16/1/cool-it-s-not-mentioned-in-the-readme
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parzzix ok..I may try to install it tomorrow..just for fun..lol bedtime now..thanks kylewm
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kylewm parzzix: np, good night
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Loqi laila tov!
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@knowlengr RT @shelholtz: The IndieWeb could have a place on your company's #intranet. http://holtz.com/blog/internal/will-your-intranet-get-known/4405/ (twitter.com/_/status/512813963495501824)
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@dougmckown Just discovered that @ReclaimHosting has a one-click @withknown installation! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512816114011619329)
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@dougmckown Just discovered that @ReclaimHosting has a one-click @withknown installer! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512816240671203330)
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@ReclaimHosting RT @dougmckown: Just discovered that @ReclaimHosting has a one-click @withknown installer! #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512817595649490944)
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kylewm test driving a new design, would love a little feedback if anybody's feeling generous https://kylewm.com/ ... particularly thinking about reposts here https://kylewm.com/shares
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binbasti there's a panel on installable web apps at edge on saturday. i'm a bit late with my question. would be great if some of you could vote for it: https://www.google.com/moderator/#8/e=215bcc&q=215bcc.708eaf&v=4
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GWG kylewm: I like it
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kylewm GWG: thanks :D I'm realizing that some things i "reposted" were just links, not actually reposts
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kylewm e.g.https://kylewm.com/share/2014/07/07/1
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GWG kylewm: I've had that issue.
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@chachasikes @caseorganic @aaronpk @Heklina How could #indieweb give drag queens more power to own their identity? #mynameis http://www.wired.com/2013/08/indie-web (twitter.com/_/status/512831018986774528)
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@cagedether RT @manat69: IndieWeb advocates launch #Known so #bloggers can be social and still control their #content https://gigaom.com/2014/09/11/indieweb-advocates-launch-known-so-bloggers-can-be-social-and-still-control-their-content/ via @giga… (twitter.com/_/status/512832314510819328)
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@kevinmarks @shanley #killalldatabases http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512834887368183808)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512836300202725376 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837441976143873 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512836534316199936 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512835773242933249 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837003335852034 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512836500556238848 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@cbarrett Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512838762993172481)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512836923484667904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512839810545774592 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512839408186179584 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512839003263885313 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512840161734823937 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512838297366720512 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512840189434019840 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512839535416197120 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512840130168487936 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512838883046735873 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@veganstraightedge @shanley 1. I agree with you about databases. I use pg for everything. 2. The indieweb wiki is not prescriptive. It's descriptive. (twitter.com/_/status/512840600920412160)
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@shanley ,@veganstraightedge but yet, criticize and u rise like "INDIEWEB IS A MAGICAL COLLECTIVEEEEEE WITH NO BIASES INFLUENCES POWER OR REALITY." (twitter.com/_/status/512841054769262592)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@shadowspar everyone remembers when we all agreed ACID was a good idea, right? :D ...no? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512841487487606784)
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kylewm uh, can someone turn loqi off for a bit...
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: are you still around?
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KartikPrabhu yup
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KartikPrabhu oh boy! some thing is going down on twitter about DB
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@_jared “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @_jrwest (twitter.com/_/status/512843047059456000)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@cheeseplus RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512843344095875072)
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gRegor` If by 'something' you mean 'all hell breaking loose'
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: what are you doing with Whiptail? thinking about maybe using it for your site eventually?
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gRegor` I . . . nearly said something. I'm glad I didn't.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: Wagtail you mean?
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kylewm oops right
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yeah I gotcha...
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KartikPrabhu I am going to stay out of this, as much as I respect @shanley
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: looking to wagtail as a CMS for a friends site. Already tired of fiddling with Wordpress
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KartikPrabhu pthon is so much cleaner
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KartikPrabhu python*
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@cheeseplus Good thing I have this hilarious indiewebcamp bullshit to laugh at all the way to Narita h/t @shanley (twitter.com/_/status/512843782447202304)
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kylewm "is a Known antipattern" is kind of funny in retrospect
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gRegor` Lulz
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@duckinator .@kevinmarks says instead of DBs, "data should be in flat files (e.g. .md, HTML, etc) to ensure long-term durability" http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512843898712891392)
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gRegor` I do think it raises an interesting point about the page, taken by itself, with no other indieweb context.
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kylewm I feel pretty strongly that it should be renamed and toned down
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kylewm (and have for a while, not just because of this)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: all the wiki pages are in some context, reading one page is not useful
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gRegor` As a fairly pro-database person, I agree
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@gRegorLove I am #indieweb and I am pro-databases. (twitter.com/_/status/512844303337418752)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: that page is strongly worded because I think tantek wrote the first version. I am sure he'd be happy to have pro-DB people edit it
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gRegor` My one and only comment on the brouhaha tonight :) ^
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: as for wagtail vs my site, I pretty much dislike CSMs
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@leftside This reads like satire, but no. It's just really stupid people. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512844571361816576)
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KartikPrabhu s/CSMs/CMSs
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Loqi KartikPrabhu meant to say: kylewm: as for wagtail vs my site, I pretty much dislike CMSs
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: mmm fair... i am starting to dislike writing everything from scratch and having a crappy version of everything :)
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KartikPrabhu which is related to my troubles handling DBs
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@Manavparekh RT @MSFTExchange: What does it mean to #OwnYourData in #Office365? How we aim to raise the bar on visibility and control... http://t.co/ImX… (twitter.com/_/status/512845106085253120)
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@_jrwest RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512845374638153728)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512843805184520192 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: Wordpress looks great if you don't want a lot of cutomisation. else it seems you have to install all these plugins which sort fo do what you want but not really and they hack their code
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512844903806537728 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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gRegor` Sounds like most CMSes.
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GWG KartikPrabhu: Hack what code?
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@cgranade @geeoharee @duckinator "Many indieweb projects are storing their data in flat files on the file system for reasons of [...] robustness." (twitter.com/_/status/512846198965686274)
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KartikPrabhu umm post types, adding fields to posts
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gRegor` Did you confirm if custom field names are cached?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: sounds not like wagtail.io so I am trying it out. Will document results/experience somewhere
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kylewm heh, I just changed that one from "The vast majority of indieweb projects..."
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: hmm no :P
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gRegor` Well, you won't find me arguing too strongly to try to keep you with WordPress :) Depending how much time you've put in it...
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: gRegor`: is it a good idea to have a list of indieweb people using DB for storage vs people using flat files for storage
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KartikPrabhu on that page I mean...
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@chipadeedoodah RT @leftside: This reads like satire, but no. It's just really stupid people. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512847064200269824)
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@janl Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512847085600014336)
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@chipadeedoodah RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512847091031240704)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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gRegor` Maybe, though I don't find it too useful. It wouldn't have had an effect on the reaction the page is getting now.
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@musoumusic i don't get how we got from "this document is dumb" http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (which it is) to "let's all go out and buy Oracle, The Real DB!™" (twitter.com/_/status/512847374419374080)
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@binaryape I'm a fan of the Indie Web principles but this page on databases is bizarre http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512847594285203456)
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@neville_park right I’m finally going to bed. Meanwhile, all my web/techie people: gather round & point & laugh at this http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512847983465881600)
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gRegor` The distinction between "primary" and "cache" is lost on people, and the page only mentions the latter after several sections.
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gRegor` It comes off like "don't use a database ever" and if you get far enough 'but caching is ok'
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snarfed ah, the great database debate
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snarfed never gets old
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gRegor` I think people are also thinking of large web sites that need databases, not personal sites.
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gRegor` Hehe
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snarfed right up there with RDF vs mf2 and "are silos evil?" in this community :P
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gRegor` Did you see the twitter brouhaha?
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gRegor` Wasn't trying to argue, just talking about improvements to /database-antipattern
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KartikPrabhu here is my reaction to all of this: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/internet-arguments not that anyone is interested
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@pchapuis "Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern." http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (via @janl) (twitter.com/_/status/512848952748965888)
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@rundmcollie Is this a joke? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512849145007456256)
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KartikPrabhu all this brouhaha is very telling given Shanley's orginal tweet: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512829444113694720
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@shanley Men cry if you hate their database. *shrug*you're actually remotely tolerable when you cry. (twitter.com/_/status/512829444113694720)
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kylewm i think this is karmic retribution for all the good press last week
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gRegor` It went back before that tweet, actually
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: oh really? Twitter didn't show me earlier ones
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gRegor` https://twitter.com/shanley/with_replies she talks about Oracle for a bit
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@acid23 RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512850453319929856)
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gRegor` Anyway, this has been oddly, unnecessarily frustrating. Time for sleep.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: live and learn... night!
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@kevinmarks @shanley @veganstraightedge @Jennimason0990 indieweb has a lot of different opinions, it isn't a monolith. Some people like databases. (twitter.com/_/status/512851208982102016)
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Haxxa I had massive problems getting known to work on my self hoste server after going through process of creating database etc. is just redirects in a loop - I am going to try again anyone mind lending a hand?
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Haxxa It seemed to work ine and then just redirects in a loop?
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Haxxa *fone
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Haxxa *fine
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@brentdax RT @cbarrett: Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512853063640817664)
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KartikPrabhu Haxxa: hmm sorry I have no experience with Known. maybe others here can chip in (if they are around)
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Haxxa yes maybe
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Haxxa As a reward I will offer a video of my favourite goat :)
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@cschorn RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512853990686871552)
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@theerasmas catching up on my timeline and apparently this is a real thing someone wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512854728661688320)
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KartikPrabhu Haxxa: seems people are away/sleeping. sorry I couldn't be of more help. I am of course assuming you went through the standard installation procedure http://docs.withknown.com/en/latest/install/instructions.html
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@zeank RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512855275607707649)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@kevinmarks @ireneista @duckinator my sympathies, xml is nasty stuff too. http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Past_Work (twitter.com/_/status/512856572096032769)
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@Jermolene Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512856871972380672)
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@psd RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twitter.com/_/status/512858503577608192)
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@shanley WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512859126150356992)
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@LynnMagic RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512859250050101249)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512856572096032769/512857049449771008 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Past_Work (webmention)
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@shanley Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512860004194328576)
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@thetrudz RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512860210218557440)
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@mirell RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512860224500150273)
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@designwitch RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512860505128443905)
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@_plantain RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512861406186991616)
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@marmisaryn RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512861491637547008)
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@lindsay40k RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512861729861431296)
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@starthumbshine RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512862566599512065)
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@Meche64 RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512862706102435840)
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@glynmoody #Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new project (twitter.com/_/status/512862861316861952)
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@ErinManker RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512863387449962497)
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@zts This doesn't set out to be amusing, but it sure manages it: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512863431251480576)
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@DownBytheBayLee RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512863646914211840)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/302813334 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@competentgirl RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512864032173600768)
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@hpk42 @janl is this database antipattern page a random page or some kind of majority opinion within the indieweb community? (twitter.com/_/status/512864324369776640)
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@Baneki RT @glynmoody: #Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new … (twitter.com/_/status/512864650401042432)
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@eshamow RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512864737085124609)
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Haxxa Yep just had another go at installing withknown - it works until end of setup in which it redirects me to /begin which doesn't exist
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@eshamow RT @zts: This doesn't set out to be amusing, but it sure manages it: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512865930440101888)
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@shanley .@aral You are a white man. You asked me how i feel about your statement on how much you care about diversity. indieweb is NOT diverse. (twitter.com/_/status/512865931031105537)
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@shanley the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manifestos. (twitter.com/_/status/512868741781016576)
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@geeky_zekey RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512869206040117248)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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kou i care about spambots
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kou so i've come here to pet them
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Loqi kou: gRegor` left you a message 1 week, 6 days ago: successfully cross-posted a couple earlier today, one was in-reply-to.
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Loqi kou: kylewm left you a message on 3/18 at 10:24am: set up a mf2py endpoint for my branch here http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url= . you can see the changes from the PR I sent here in the published properties, http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2014%2F075%2Ft1%2Factions-consequences-planning-regardless
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Loqi kou: gRegor` left you a message 1 week, 6 days ago: successfully cross-posted a couple earlier today, one was in-reply-to.
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Haxxa Just checking if anyone familar with known?
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Haxxa I really can't solve my issue of redirecting to /hostname.com/begin which doesn't exist :/
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@waynehartman RT @cbarrett: Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512875502647144448)
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@lordminx @_klausi_ Wenn man sich die Teilnehmer*innen Bilder der #Indieweb camps schauts nicht viel anders aus: http://indiewebcamp.com/Previous_IndieWebCamps (twitter.com/_/status/512878340974608384)
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@travisatkins RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512879457284022272)
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@travisatkins RT @cbarrett: Oh dear. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512883080466411521)
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@MildredMarianne RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512884485809926144)
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@lordminx Hihihi, gestern poste ich was mich am Indieweb stört, heute explodiert meine TL mit @shanley 's Abrechnung damit. <3 (twitter.com/_/status/512885304790089729)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@fantasticlife RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twitter.com/_/status/512886687471763457)
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@ShaneHudson @Jermolene I would just like to note that it isn't an article. It is thoughts from various people. #indieweb certainly does not hate DBs (twitter.com/_/status/512888913959337984)
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@mxey RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512889019345412096)
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@Jermolene RT @ShaneHudson: @Jermolene I would just like to note that it isn't an article. It is thoughts from various people. #indieweb certainly doe… (twitter.com/_/status/512890650967408641)
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@monkchips RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twitter.com/_/status/512891337365258241)
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@ShaneHudson @Jermolene They develop organically through conversations in person and on irc. Like this one on https: http://indiewebcamp.com/https (twitter.com/_/status/512891412732710913)
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@davebally RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twitter.com/_/status/512892956295311360)
j12t, lukebrooker, emmak and lukebrooker_ joined the channel
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
j12t, kirilind and pfefferle joined the channel
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@loltimo RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512909351842217985)
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@kevinmarks @ireneista @duckinator have you seen the indieWebcamp irc logs? They solve that. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (twitter.com/_/status/512909675080069120)
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ShaneHudson Woo I've got twitter posse working manually again now :) I really do need to brush up on my php, always lets me down
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alanpear_ PHP is a fickle frankenbeast :(
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pfefferle alanpear_ :)
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finalcut Haxxa : I don't know if you're still here. I had similar issue that I self created. After getting known working I tried to edit the config.ini file and point to a different mongodb; at that point it just stayed stuck at the begin page and I could never move forward. I had to point back to my first mongodb instance. My "begin" page exists though (http://rawlinson.us/begin)
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@netizenrights RT @glynmoody: #Known, the #Indieweb, and one possible future for your digital life - http://garethjordan.withknown.com/2014/known-the-indieweb-and-one-possible-future-for-your-digital this looks an interesting new … (twitter.com/_/status/512915076513542144)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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barnabywalters KevinMarks: RE ^^^, the IRC logs are rendered to HTML but stored in a database IIRC, so your assertion is incorrect
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Loqi barnabywalters: jonnybarnes left you a message on 9/18 at 9:26am: now that you use https on shrewdness you should use https://cdnjs.cloudflare.com/ajax/libs/leaflet/0.7.3/leaflet.js for leaflet as per kylewm's suggestion
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@emallson RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512930280450297857)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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shanehudson.net edited /User:ShaneHudson.net (+290) "Added POSSE to my site" (view diff)
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shanehudson.net edited /POSSE (+483) "/* Jeremy Keith */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://petermolnar.eu/replies/dont-keep-your-opinions-to-yourself/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmentions (webmention)
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@tommorris @hpk42 @janl indieweb = your personal preferences ARE the only requirements. (twitter.com/_/status/512934528697270272)
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petermolnar uh, I need to remove that link in my footer to the webmentions page :D
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@tachyondecay Wait, this is a thing? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Seriously? This isn’t just someone trolling? (twitter.com/_/status/512934665788088320)
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@hpk42 @tommorris @janl not sure i follow. I write software to be used in an indieweb way by others, the software gives certain guarantees e.g.ACID (twitter.com/_/status/512935390018555906)
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alanpear_ warms hands in front of the twitter fire
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@tommorris @hpk42 @janl Well, if you are writing software that needs a DB, use it. Point is for indieweb people, writing software for ourselves first. (twitter.com/_/status/512935893620248576)
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@puppet_ebooks RT #stevesalaita: I'm speaking at companies like INDIEWEB IS INCHARGE doesn't mean *I'M* the good one ever living feminism in exchange fo... (twitter.com/_/status/512937158681067520)
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@hpk42 @tommorris @janl oh is "write software for myself first" really at the core of indieweb? I thought it's "deploy software on your own site". (twitter.com/_/status/512938839875530752)
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@DanielBaird RT @Jermolene: Peculiarly controversial article from #indieweb about hating databases; personally, I feel similarly about servers - http://… (twitter.com/_/status/512941148462006274)
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ben_thatmustbeme hello there indiechat
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ben_thatmustbeme er indiewebcamp
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alanpear_ Hullo
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ShaneHudson Hey :)
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ShaneHudson I've got POSSE working now but I'm still by habit replying to tweets on twitter.com
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alanpear_ #indieworldproblems?
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petermolnar alanpear_++
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Loqi alanpear has 1 karma
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alanpear_ But I am alanpearce :(
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alanpearce_ stupid auto-nick thing :D
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petermolnar alanpearce++ , better? :)
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Loqi alanpearce has 1 karma
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alanpearce_ alanpear--
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Loqi dude
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alanpearce_ Loqi forgot
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Loqi dude
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petermolnar one does not simply tell Loqi to --
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alanpearce_ :)
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ShaneHudson Lol
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512909675080069120/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19 (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme ShaneHudson, yeah I still find it hard not to reply on twitter or FB
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alanpearce_ Build your own timeline system :)
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@aphyr RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512944278734000132)
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alanpearce_ The flames just keep going on…
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@anderiasch RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512945322503708672)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@entropiae RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512947388768878593)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme when did that start?
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@old_sound RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512948569217961985)
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@rafeco “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” A whole page of terrible advice. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512948914212077570)
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@postwait Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512949512303030274)
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@aaron_pendley RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512949688673505280)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /database-antipattern (-6) "/* DBA tax */ typos "setting up doing tables" -> "setting up tables"" (view diff)
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@kenhorn RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern < +1, hilarious (twitter.com/_/status/512950685495996417)
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@dissolve333 Ben Roberts September 19, 2014 9:08 AM Everyone is freaking out about #indieweb and the characterization of… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/1/_) (twitter.com/_/status/512951326662090752)
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petermolnar though I disagree with the anti-db page as well, I'm getting a bit annoyed about the meaningless tweets around it; add debate beside databases, people, not just ridiculous comments.
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ben_thatmustbeme looks like my markup needs some fixing...
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@trawg RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512952079112220672)
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@mwotton RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512952156337348608)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, what am I doing wrong with that one?
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@jacksonj04 http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern um (twitter.com/_/status/512952461976682496)
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@garnaat So, is http://indiewebcamp.com kind of like an Onion for the tech world. That's the only explanation I can think of. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512952513834668032)
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@parzzix How would 120gb traffic translate to site visits? Guestimations anyone #indieweb #webhosting #web (twitter.com/_/status/512952521992974336)
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@chrismunns RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512952596186017792)
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alanpearce_ probably started around here: https://twitter.com/duckinator/status/512843898712891392
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@duckinator .@kevinmarks says instead of DBs, "data should be in flat files (e.g. .md, HTML, etc) to ensure long-term durability" http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512843898712891392)
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@chrskly What the actual fuck? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512952683389804544)
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@tobiassvn RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512952994032549889)
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@GeekPopLife RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512953710126059520)
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@GeekPopLife RT @shanley: Indieweb: WE CARE ABOUT DIVERSITY* AND WE WANT TO BE FREE OF GIANT TECH COMPANIES** * WE ARE WHITE PEOPLE ** WE WORK AT THEM (twitter.com/_/status/512953740236972033)
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@charliesome loooollllll http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512953838261641216)
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@GeekPopLife RT @shanley: .@aral You are a white man. You asked me how i feel about your statement on how much you care about diversity. indieweb is NOT… (twitter.com/_/status/512953852245835777)
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@GeekPopLife RT @shanley: the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manife… (twitter.com/_/status/512954030919004161)
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@MattRogish RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512954419932323840)
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finalcut tell Haxxa - you might not have url rewriting turned on in apache if you are getting a page not found error with the begin page. I was just able to recreate it by removing url rewriting.
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, @duckinator basically took it to MySQL vs HTML
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alanpearce_ Yeah.
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alanpearce_ Which isn't so unreasonable on the face of it
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alanpearce_ But then it just goes on and round and ergh
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah
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finalcut !tell Haxxa - you might not have url rewriting turned on in apache if you are getting a page not found error with the begin page. I was just able to recreate it by removing url rewriting
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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finalcut sorry for the double - i didn't realize I needed the ! at first
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ben_thatmustbeme ah, finally got down to the last of it, have to admit i glossed over a bit
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ben_thatmustbeme and yes, the IRC logs are stored in a DB
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alanpearce_ Sounds like a prime area where text files are actually useful :(
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ben_thatmustbeme not liking that brid.gy posted my name and data... https://twitter.com/dissolve333/status/512951326662090752 Anyone see something wrong with my markup?
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@dissolve333 Ben Roberts September 19, 2014 9:08 AM Everyone is freaking out about #indieweb and the characterization of… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/1/_) (twitter.com/_/status/512951326662090752)
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@RonKJeffries Next year I want to attend XOXO--sounds like great fun. http://www.kevinmarks.com/xoxofest2014a.html #indieweb @kevinmarks @withknown @evanpro (twitter.com/_/status/512955840983482369)
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@davegandy “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” - http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern I needed a good laugh. (twitter.com/_/status/512955990497820672)
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ben_thatmustbeme I was working more on IndieStats last night by my own version.. i think bear has the right idea just storing everything to files encoded in JSON. easy to pass between languages
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@oahner RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512956532485816320)
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@beezly RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512956991619485696)
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petermolnar nice, we're getting two flame wars :D
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alanpearce_ You mean there's another one?
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@iand675 RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512958088488714240)
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ben_thatmustbeme well hey, they say there is no such thing as bad publicity
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ben_thatmustbeme here we go, round 2
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@davepkennedy RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512958282273927169)
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@peakscale RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512958437266051074)
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@EthanHann RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512958765629734912)
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@fulmicoton RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512959567593234432)
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tommorris Twitter is in full 'principle of charity' mode today.
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@wfarr I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512959718831431680)
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ben_thatmustbeme i'll just ask snarfed later what is wrong with my markup
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ben_thatmustbeme i guess
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alanpearce_ I didn't see anything wrong when I looked.
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alanpearce_ Did you try running it through any of the parsers?
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@AakashMehendale @jxxf @postwait yes, it says right here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Alternatives ; and says you might want to "build a database-like API on top"... (twitter.com/_/status/512960198869524481)
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@drnic RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512960208067248128)
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@ephoz RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512960934135209984)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512960436762058752 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@pjb3 RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512961042218250240)
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ben_thatmustbeme alanpearce_ yes, it looks fine
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ben_thatmustbeme oh... huh... its getting it as part of the name
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ben_thatmustbeme http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fben.thatmustbe.me%2Fnote%2F2014%2F9%2F19%2F1%2F_
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@petersabaini I'm developr! MT @_jared “Using databases as primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512961437061615617)
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alanpearce_ aha :D
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@finalcut Some instructions to help people trying to self host @WithKnown on #ubuntu http://rawlinson.us/2014/setting-up-known-on-ubuntu #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512961696508694528)
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@sixty4k RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512961846434086912)
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ben_thatmustbeme i don't quite get why though
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barnabywalters tries
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barnabywalters huh
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barnabywalters I tried to look up “principle of charity” on wikipedia and get “Cannot contact the database server: Too many connections”
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ben_thatmustbeme hey barnabywalters
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@betamatt RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512962479539097600)
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barnabywalters which, in the context, is rather ironic
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alanpearce_ DATABASE ANTIPATTERN
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alanpearce_ :D
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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Loqi awesome
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barnabywalters a bit worried though, in all seriousness — WP is pretty important to say the least
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barnabywalters ah, it’s back up now
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@_tholmes RT @charliesome: loooollllll http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512962671998930944)
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@boffbowsh RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512962714428534784)
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barnabywalters I can totally see how, read out of context, /databases-antipattern seems ridiculous
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barnabywalters maybe there should be additional clarification there
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@muthafaka RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512963135758950401)
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alanpearce_ Yeah, the twitter thing is just a reduction to the absurd.
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alanpearce_ ben_thatmustbeme: looks like you have some HTML mismatching
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ben_thatmustbeme i updated it to add p-name to the content if there is no title
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ben_thatmustbeme but yesh, i see that now... don't tell GWG
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@isofarro RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512963846743814144)
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (+20) "slight copyedit" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme was missing a </section> tag after the login box.. should not have effected that
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ben_thatmustbeme that article is worded a little strongly, but its hard to not agree with a lot of what it says, for long term storage, databases are not the way to go
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tommorris "never ever use a database ever" sounds a lot crazier than "for the use cases of personal publishing, you may not need a RDBMS".
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@weems RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512965018157998080)
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@neapel RT @janl: Those who don’t learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512965060466327552)
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@dissolve333 #indieweb http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern hard to argue that if I had only kept DB copies of all my old data i'd have them… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/2/_) (twitter.com/_/status/512965098701221888)
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ben_thatmustbeme yeah, it is a bit harsh
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barnabywalters I wish there was a way to easily see how many people who’ve tweeted/retweeted condemning /database-antipattern host their personal site statically (or even have a personal site)
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ben_thatmustbeme i think the intention of it being for "long term storage of personal documents" is where people are missing the focus.
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alanpearce_ Hmm, what about Yahoo's query thing?
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@glenscott WTF? "Rather than using a database for storage, use open well established formats like HTML + microformats," http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512965513539223552)
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (+740) "/* FAQ */ expand with some kind words for our new Twitter fans" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, grep them out of the logs here, look up their twitter account and then find if they point to any URL
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /database-antipattern (+63) "/* What, you mean, never use a database ever? That's crazy! */ added note about long-term archives" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tommorris: thanks for those copy-edits, the tone is quite a bit better now
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barnabywalters #indiewebcamp reaction to twitter storm = make the wiki better
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pfefferle_ tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 45 karma
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alanpearce_ is confused
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barnabywalters tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 46 karma
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alanpearce_ who is alanpearce__
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tommorris barnabywalters: kinda had practice from wikipedia.
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@sogrady i assume this is all just an elaborate troll, but if not, well, wow: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern via/ @postwait (twitter.com/_/status/512966413490094080)
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neuro` An interested project http://oct.zoy.org/2014/09/08/the-flickr-attributor.html
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neuro` Open source so you can host yours
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@miguelinlas3 Are you kidding me? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512966663080517632)
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (+369) "/* FAQ */ adding another FAQ" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (+173) "mediawiki, I hate you" (view diff)
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (-87) "/* Isn't flat-files a form of database? */ actually, that might be a bit OTT" (view diff)
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barnabywalters ^^^ LOL
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neuro` Do you guys consider sqlite as a database then?
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tommorris.org edited /database-antipattern (+17) "lead tighten" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme of course
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ben_thatmustbeme i certainly would
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neuro` It's not. No maintenance, no daemon, no install
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neuro` no server
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alanpearce_ It's still a database, just not a database server
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ben_thatmustbeme anyone who has tried to open a sqlite v2 DB with sqlite v3, will know its still just as fragile
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alanpearce_ Just like you could use PHP to serialize an array of objects to a file
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ben_thatmustbeme if I had sqlite v1 db lying around I wouldn't exactly be getting my data out of it right now
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neuro` I like sqlite
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neuro` more and more
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ben_thatmustbeme i like that there is no server install, thats nice, but its still putting all your content eggs in one databasket
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tommorris `sudo apt-get install sqlite3` is kinda an install.
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ben_thatmustbeme with flat files, if i have one corruption, recovery on that one files is pretty easy. with a DB, if that files corrupts, the likelyhood to recover is a LOT lower
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neuro` gem install jeckhyll too
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ben_thatmustbeme tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 47 karma
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alanpearce_ tommorris: That's only for the command-line client thouhg, really.
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tommorris sure, you have to install bindings for your language and plenty else besides.
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tommorris I use and like Postgres.
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alanpearce_ I want to use postgres at work.
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ben_thatmustbeme i always have a hard time getting php to play nice with sqlite
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alanpearce_ But no :(
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tommorris What would be nice is if people are so insistent on using databases for personal storage, they made the backup systems suck less.
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tommorris So maybe if you type `apt-get install postgres-personal`, you'd get a nice wizard that would set up autobackup syncing to Dropbox or S3 or something.
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tommorris Also, through shit management interfaces, I've managed to delete terabytes of data. Good thing we kept the original data in flat-file. ;-)
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ben_thatmustbeme honestly this is getting me to wonder if I should move away from a DB myself. the more i think about it, its the stuff that I happened to back up in html or flat files are the stuff i still have around
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ben_thatmustbeme all the DBs are gone
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@iand675 RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512969099497189376)
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ben_thatmustbeme change that wiki page to "Wow, Words cannot express... Well Try. Its called discourse"
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alanpearce_ I thought you were talking about Discourse for a second, I was confused :D
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't even know about it
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ben_thatmustbeme what is Discourse
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Discourse" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Discourse
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@keithf4 I'm pretty much at a loss for words for this http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512969801179103232)
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tommorris ben_thatmustbeme: David Lewis once said that he would present his theories from 'On the Plurality of Worlds' and just get back incredulous stares. His response: "I cannot refute an incredulous stare"
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@isamlambert RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512970036508917760)
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ben_thatmustbeme good quote
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tommorris Lewis also said in a later edition: "I once complained that my modal realism met with many incredulous stares, but few argued objections. The arguments were soon forthcoming. I think they have been adequately countered. They lead at worse to standoffs. The incredulous stares remain. They remain unanswerable."
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tommorris Which has something rather Early Wittgenstein about it. "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."
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barnabywalters taking a look at the profiles/personal sites of a few of the angry retweeters reveals (warning: cursory anecdata) ≈30% have static personal sites (esp. github pages), many are database engineers
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@spifferiferfied RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512971309752778752)
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, i was just about to do that search barnabywalters
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barnabywalters also a few with no personal site, or hosted (e.g. about.me)
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tommorris https://twitter.com/tommorris/status/512971400131665921
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@tommorris "Not use a database? That's crazy thinking", the developer said before updating his Github Pages-hosted Jekyll site. (twitter.com/_/status/512971400131665921)
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barnabywalters (interestingly, tantek (arguably the biggest anti-database advocate) used to work on database client and server software at oracle and holds database-related patents http://tantek.com/projects/resume.html
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alanpearce_ Maybe he got jaded :D
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@danlyke @rafeco a lot of that in the indieweb community. See the reinvention of mistakes that is WebMention, for instance. (twitter.com/_/status/512972037103427584)
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barnabywalters my point being that this argument isn’t being made by clueless newbies
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snarfed agreed
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snarfed you all have heard the quote, "any sufficiently complex C program includes a half-baked, bug ridden implementation of common lisp," right?
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alanpearce_ Of course :)
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snarfed well, any sufficiently complex flat file webapp usually includes a half-baked, bug ridden implementation of a database
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tommorris ...which is still preferable to MySQL.
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snarfed heh
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snarfed it would be a slightly different argument if that page was entitled *mysql*-antipattern
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alanpearce_ I dunno, some people still use it :(
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alanpearce_ GitHub :/
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snarfed s/some/tons/
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tommorris snarfed: the problem with "the MySQL antipattern" is the word "the".
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alanpearce_ tommorris: that works for PHP, too :D
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snarfed sure. mysql has weakness, just like most large pieces of software
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barnabywalters where “some people” == everyone on shared hosting AKA the only afforable hosting for most
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alanpearce_ I haven't seen any shared hosting cheaper than the VPSes I rent :/
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barnabywalters alanpearce_: you’re ignoring the huge cost of learning to use a VPS
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snarfed barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 68 karma
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alanpearce_ Well, I don't fully see time and money as freely convertible, so I parsed your sentence differently
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snarfed they don't have to be freely convertible to both be costs
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barnabywalters snarfed: agreed about the buggy reimplementation, have done that myself, but still misses the point that DBs are excellent for indexing, searching, caching etc but v. poor for long term (10+ years) storage
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petermolnar ben_thatmustbeme sqlite v1 is basically plain text, you will be able to get out whatever you want.
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@parzzix Wondering if I should separate @withknown and a full time blog or use it for both? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512973438621724672)
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barnabywalters no reason not to use both, e.g. aaronpk with p3k
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@nshttpd RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512973528195670016)
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@kennygorman #FaceFuckingPalm RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512973550207397888)
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snarfed barnabywalters: sure! although big community and ecosystem helps long term viability a *lot*, and big dbs like mysql do have that
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snarfed if the main argument was about long term viability, it'd seem more reasonable
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ben_thatmustbeme petermolnar, was using it as an example, never used v1
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@parzzix Also, should I keep a static page somewhere? For fallback? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512973962800668672)
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@8bitsofsketch RT @shanley: WHERE SHALL YOU STAND ON THE GREAT INDIEWEB DEBATE OF 2014: a.) database b.) no database c.) FUCKED EITHER WAY (twitter.com/_/status/512973995176517633)
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barnabywalters snarfed: in my view the main argument is about long term viability, but I’m not representative of /databases-antipattern (or vice versa)
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snarfed yup
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barnabywalters alanpearce_: OOI where do you rent your VPSes?
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barnabywalters I’m looking for a new (more reliable, ideally cheaper) provider
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ben_thatmustbeme for u in `curl -sL http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today |grep -E '<Loqi>\W+\[@' |sed 's/.*<Loqi>\W\+\[@\(\w\+\)\].*/\1/' |uniq`; do echo -n $u " "; curl -sL https://twitter.com/$u | grep 'rel="me nofollow"' |sed 's/.*title="\([^"]*\)".*/\1/'; done
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Loqi :)
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ben_thatmustbeme how i am pulling every tweet from today to see who has pages or not
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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ben_thatmustbeme actually, let me fix that a little
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ben_thatmustbeme for u in `curl -sL http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/today |grep -E '<Loqi>\W+\[@' |sed 's/.*<Loqi>\W\+\[@\(\w\+\)\].*/\1/' |sort |uniq`; do echo -ne "\n$u "; curl -sL https://twitter.com/$u | grep 'rel="me nofollow"' |sed 's/.*title="\([^"]*\)".*/\1/' ; done
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ben_thatmustbeme better, not perfect, still getting some extra blank lines
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gRegor` How is the Great Indieweb Rubbernecking of 2014 going?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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snarfed1 gRegornobacktick++
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Loqi gRegornobacktick has 17 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme wow, someone's rel=me on twitter links to someone else's twitter status
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Loqi [mention] https://snarfed.org/2014-09-19_the-database-antipattern linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (pingback)
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snarfed1 ben_thatmustbeme: whoa, weird
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@n01s3 RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512977312204480512)
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gRegor` Nice edits to /database-antipattern, tommorris.
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gRegor` tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 48 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme snarfed1 yeah, look https://twitter.com/neapel
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ben_thatmustbeme 79.34% of tweets today were people that had a rel=me link
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neuro` Not bad
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@mshook This is the podcast that got me started on the indieweb: This Week in Google 266 | http://TWiT.TV http://twit.tv/show/this-week-in-google/266 (twitter.com/_/status/512977986744643584)
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ben_thatmustbeme 92 users, 71 have sites, 1 has fb, 1 has twitter
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ben_thatmustbeme that was the 73/92
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ben_thatmustbeme 3 were about.me
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ben_thatmustbeme random stats for the day
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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@NoelMcKinney "This is because databases always require extra 'magic' for backups etc." http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern HT @garnaat (twitter.com/_/status/512978638849835008)
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ben_thatmustbeme wait until round 3 of the tweet flood starts
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gRegor` Attention was brought to the page through a KevinMarks + Shanley interaction on Twitter. A lot of Shanley's followers are DBAs or "make databases for fun"
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /database-antipattern (-3) "/* databases for storage */ -- typo" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /database-antipattern (+16) "/* databases for storage */ phrasing, avoiding "CMS's"" (view diff)
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@reinergaertner Bye-bye, Google & co. - unabhängig von Datenkraken. Mein Selbstversuch: http://rgae.de/24 #indieweb, #Synology #BaikalServer #yourls (twitter.com/_/status/512980768675471361)
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gRegor` Huh. I thought MW would warn if other changes were made to the page.
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gRegor` (While editing)
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gRegor` No collision, though
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gRegor` "databases for storage" as a lone top-level heading seems odd on that page.
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gRegor` Should "databases for caching" be another top level, briefly explaining and linking to Main: database-cache?
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gRegor` Or perhaps just eliminate it and move the other headings up
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ben_thatmustbeme kind of a neat stat to look at though, for all twitter mentions that loqi picks up, who has personal sites;
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gregorlove.com edited /antipatterns (+16) "/* databases for storage */ phrasing, avoiding "CMS's"" (view diff)
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tommorris gRegor`: MediaWiki's merge algorithm is fairly good.
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tantek.com created /database-antipattern, (+34) "r due to IRC logs auto-link reference" (view diff)
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gRegor` I'm pretty sure there was ind.ie and indieweb confusion in Shanley's tweets last night, once aral engaged her.
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gRegor` Not that it matters much. Pretty sure by that point she had lumped us under one umbrella labelled "shitty"
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tantek__ good morning #indiewebcamp!
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neuro` Good morning tantek__
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gRegor` Morning, tantek___
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tantek__ such a quiet Friday ;)
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gRegor` Have an extra underscore
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gRegor` _
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tantek__ Would like an extra backtick? ;)
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gRegor` Hehe
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@parzzix How would 120gb traffic translate to site visits? Guestimations anyone #indieweb #webhosting #web https://plus.google.com/+TimAppleNixGuy/posts/akheGGBzJ7L (twitter.com/_/status/512984242674876416)
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tantek__ g+;dr
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ben_thatmustbeme hey tantek__
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tantek__ G+ has been training me to not click on plus.google.com links due to being so slow to load and scroll.
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tantek__ must be because they're using a DB. ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme thats just going to be are default comeback to everything now isn't it?
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ShaneHudson gRegor`: I don't think there was much confusion... she was referring to 'white males' who work for large corporations, which is the case for some here (though I don't see how it is a problem!)
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@BrianStien RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/512985093678178304)
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tantek__ props on recent wiki edits - nice cleanup and additions tommorris, gregor`, shanehudson, ben_thatmustbe
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danlyke barnabywalters, I don't remember when I moved Flutterby.com from flat file to database, but it's been 10+ years. SQL text file backups. Started Flutterby.net as flat file, but as it grows I'm headed back towards databases.
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tantek__ ShaneHudson it is a problem because any cluster of homogeneity is vulnerable to /monoculture thinking.
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ShaneHudson tantek__: Yeah but that means we need more diversity, not less of who we already have :)
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tantek__ ShaneHudson, correct, more diversity on the indieweb is essential, and thus it behooves all of us who are or resemble any kind of dominant homogeneity to reach beyond usual friend circles, similar backgrounds, similar appearances, etc.
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ShaneHudson tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 77 karma
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barnabywalters danlyke: that’s good to hear!
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danlyke barnabywalters yeah, the way I figure it is that a filesystem is a database, anything on top of me reading and writing bits by toggling SPI lines is, we need tools to read everything, so layering on top of other code is a good simplification.
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tantek__ danlyke, the "filesystem is a database" reasoning is flawed, in that it ignores the broader context that tools to backup/inspect file systems are *far* more automatic/easy (and already in use) than the same for *separate* such things for databases.
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tantek__ what is SPI?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "SPI" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=SPI
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tommorris SCP/rsync etc. > mysqldump/pgdump
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tommorris And I say that as someone who uses Postgres and likes it a lot.
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@NickFitz “Databases are hard, let’s go shopping!” Utterly pathetic: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (via @postwait, @isofarro) (twitter.com/_/status/512986947166699520)
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ben_thatmustbeme sqldumps work, still not the best way to store backups really though. I want me backups to be program agnostic, sqldumps really aren't
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ben_thatmustbeme if I want to future proof them that is
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barnabywalters SPI == serial peripheral interface?
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tantek__ ben_tahtmustbeme exactly! sqldumps are not program agnostic, nor future friendly, nevermind future proof
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tantek__ s/ben_tahtmustbeme/ben_thatmustbeme
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ben_thatmustbeme i have AIM chat logs going back to 2002, only reason i still have those around are the aim+ or whatever mod I was using at the time, stored all logs as html
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tantek__ perhaps we should start a page on /longevity
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tantek__ what is longevity?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "longevity" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=longevity
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tantek__ with examples like that ben_thatmustbeme
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danlyke barnabywalters tabntek__ yes, SPI = serial peripheral interface. Bit twiddling to read and write data.
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ben_thatmustbeme but my e-mails from back then are gone because I stored them all in a program that kept them in a DB. sure they claim the DB was portable, but here I am years later, and I don't have them
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@schnarfed @sean_lynch :( http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512987877655859200)
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tantek__ ben_thatmustbeme exactly. no DB is portable across time. all their formats have changed so much that good luck opening any DB *file* (not export) from 10+ years ago.
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gRegor` I really liked Jeremy Keith's "All Our Yesterdays" talk on longevity. I saw it shortly before I came across indiewebcamp. http://gregorlove.com/2013/05/1153/
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tantek__ gRegor` perhaps start /longevity with a brief dfn and link to that article?
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gRegor` Dangit
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gRegor` ;)
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tantek__ :)
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danlyke my experience w/homemade ORMs and data migration tells me that MySQL <-> PostgreSQL <-> SQLite is a few lines of Perl substituting boilerplate.
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tommorris Using wget and spidering your own site is a pretty seamless bit of self-archiving. I should probably write a super-simple and portable script to do that and plonk it on a few different machines on a cron job.
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tantek__ what is ORM?
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gRegor` I would probably just link to the video
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ORM" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ORM
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@alexbilbie Warning kids, using databases is an anti pattern http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512988431249850368)
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tantek__ should we put a contextual header at the top of /database-antipattern since there are so many direct entrants to that page now?
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tommorris tantek__: I was rather leaving it to you to do that.
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gRegor` I think it needs something.
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tommorris danlyke: Ha. SQLite -> anything is problematic as SQLite doesn't enforce type constraints. Therefore if you dump out the schema and the data, the schema could be an elaborate lie.
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tommorris create table foo(bar int); insert into foo("MAGIC");
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tantek__ tommorris does MediaWiki have any magic markup constructs for "if came from outside"
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danlyke tommorris my first blog tool started out w/generating HTML from emails. I later regretted throwing away the source data. Spidering is a secondary backup option.
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tommorris tantek__: not really.
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tantek__ danlyke what format was the "source data"? mbox?
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tommorris danlyke: store the source data then. that doesn't need a DB. :)
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danlyke tommorris but if I'm looking to repurpose that data later, I can recreate the schema in PostgreSQL with everything as TEXT (or MySQL with carefully hand-crafted types because MySQL). Not really a problem.
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danlyke tantek__ mbox would have been a decent format, or one text record per email, or whatever. Mostly I regret throwing away all the header info.
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danlyke tommorris agreed, just think that that should be mentioned when you discuss wget/curl as a backup strategy.
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tantek__ danlyke I have a ton of old emails "saved" in mbox format. However I lack a good mbox "viewer" (short of importing them into a new email program which I have no desire to do, I just want to view/browse)
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tommorris danlyke: Oh no, it's *a* backup strategy. One backup strategy is not enough. Storing encrypted pgdumps on S3 is my standard go-to backup strategy. curl/wget is a backup for the backup strategy.
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tantek__ what is mbox?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "mbox" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=mbox
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ben_thatmustbeme wget -r is how i have backups of my old blog
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ben_thatmustbeme although i'm glad its not public anymore, haha
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@ramimassoud database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp - Databases are all a pain to maintain (i.e. highly human-time... http://tumblr.ramimassoud.com/post/97892841377/database-antipattern-indiewebcamp#_=_ (twitter.com/_/status/512989981728862208)
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danlyke tantek The obvious tool for mbox is "less", but aside from a short dance with Opera, I don't think I've ever installed an email app that couldn't use mbox directly...
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tantek__ danlyke all the email apps that I've seen seem to "import" an mbox, duplicate it in their own *database* file (usually much bigger than the source mbox) before they let you browse it.
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danlyke tantek__ ah, yeah, Claws (my current client of choice) wants to import it into MH.
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@alindeman http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512991226896084992)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek__ All the purely emotional reactions to /database-antipattern make me think we've discovered quite a hotbed of Cargo Cult Programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming
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danlyke tantek__ (I keep threatening to move to a self-hosted distributed IMAP thing, but then IMAP sucks on other fronts...)
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@tommorris @adrianshort @alexbilbie For a lot of people in the indieweb community, there's not much call for (traditional RDBMS-type) databases. (twitter.com/_/status/512991604958056449)
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tantek__ danlyke indeed (re: IMAP). everything to do with email has so many trade-offs. I don't have a good solution either. mbox is a archive stopgap. :/
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gregorlove.com created /longevity (+229) "stub" (view diff)
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danlyke tantek__ Yeah, mbox at least doesn't throw anything away (Semantics if /^From/ aside).
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tantek__ what is future-friendly?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "future-friendly" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=future-friendly
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tantek__ what is future-proof?
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@amazonv RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512992155145486336)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "future-proof" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=future-proof
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tantek__ gregor` ^^^
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@shanley This is a photo from another indie web conference this year: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp2014-sf.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/512992727248535553)
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tantek__ yikes: https://twitter.com/isabeldresler/status/512090971803103232
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tantek__ what is PayPal?
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@isabeldresler Just had all my money seized & my account shut down by PayPal even though I'm not selling anything illegal or pornographic. Advice welcome. (twitter.com/_/status/512090971803103232)
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PayPal" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PayPal
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danlyke tantek__ seems like the PayPal story gets replayed every few months with a different victim, and yet people still keep using it. Sigh.
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@shanley The same conference, the year before: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/512993150139252736)
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tantek__1 danlyke - we should document/cite these - as PayPal seems to be a particularly unfriendly money silo.
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tantek___ the _s will keep being added until the web IRC client lets go of previous usernames (tantek_ tantek__)
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ben_thatmustbeme so shanley is just playing the race card now? what does that have to do with DBs?
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danlyke tantek__ I guess the reminders of the idiocy of PayPal have always been frequent enough in my life that I couldn't see how someone would be unaware of the risks...
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme I don't interpret it that way.
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@shanley Yeah. #indieweb. there is no evidence that this is a diverse movement. when i talk about it i get instantly attacked by 10 patriarchal jerks (twitter.com/_/status/512993514150326272)
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gRegor` That's not 'the race card'
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barnabywalters criticism of the lack of diversity in #indiewebcamp is valid criticism
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ben_thatmustbeme its a fair criticism that we aren't very diverse
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tantek___ ok folks, who is attacking shanley? any form of personal attacks is unacceptable.
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ben_thatmustbeme but in the context of her arguments its completely unrelated
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@shanley #indieweb Its conferences are full to the brim w/ white men. it talks about accepting critique but can't without crumbling. (twitter.com/_/status/512993719004311554)
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@sandfoxuk The Internet of White People #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/512993750734626816)
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tantek___ one of the reasons we publish photos is to be open and transparent and show where we are (and be aware of how far we need to go)
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@shanley #indieweb the thing about not using databases is really just too rich for words. (twitter.com/_/status/512993789753819136)
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@vitaminsludge RT @shanley: #indieweb Its conferences are full to the brim w/ white men. it talks about accepting critique but can't without crumbling. (twitter.com/_/status/512993878182723584)
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gRegor` It's moved on from just the /database-antipattern a while ago.
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petermolnareu ben_thatmustbeme the diversity thing is a bad joke, we're not holding back anyone of joining and there is not so much to do about who is interested in this
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bear Indieweb crowd is small enough that I have no idea who she thinks is not accepting of criticism or hating on her
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gRegor` Within a few tweets of starting last night, actually.
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barnabywalters petermolnareu: careful making assertions like “we're not holding back anyone”, we may be doing things we’re unaware of which put people off
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tantek___ right, being defensive about lacking diversity is never helpful.
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ben_thatmustbeme apparently criticizing databases is one of those things :)
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@shanley What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512994279212335105)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme I know you mean that to be funny, however they are separate matters.
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ben_thatmustbeme i know, it is
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@so_treu RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512994503427649536)
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ben_thatmustbeme btw, if anyone wants their comments on such subject OTR we have #indiechat for that reason
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tantek___ and the lack of diversity issue is nothing to make any humor about. it is a real issue, and we should all accept shanley's criticisms of that gracefully, and work on improvements, not defenses.
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barnabywalters (or, maybe, y’know, just keep it to yourself)
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petermolnareu "we may be doing things we’re unaware of which put people off" I know this is a rabbithole, but I will say my opinion: I do not care. A group with an idea, with principles, where is no one forced to join or not to join; I think this is OK like this.
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tantek___ petermolnareu - in a world of perfectly equal opportunities, you're right. however we are not in that world.
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@savant RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512994778955644928)
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ben_thatmustbeme things like this honestly make me want to just take my personal photos off my site.
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@bashlog RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512994841102651392)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme - yes there are many trade-offs to public vs. private postings of all kinds.
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@bma RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512994976465424384)
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@divinetechygirl RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512994984019369985)
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tantek___ should we make it more clear that we don't charge for admission to indiewebcamps?
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ben_thatmustbeme personally I don't care what any of you look like, i thought thats the idea of being an internet based community. I think it just represents more to the communities this group started in
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barnabywalters not sure I exactly understand what shanley is advocating us to do?
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tantek___ there's no $$$ collected to divert.
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barnabywalters donate to orgs like modelviewculture or ada initiative?
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tantek___ barnabywalters, there may be a misunderstanding of conference = entrance fee.
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petermolnareu has to leave, will be back within a few hours
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ben_thatmustbeme barnabywalters, I don't think she is advocating anything, it has started to look more like greifing now
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tantek___ barnabywalters I think we should leave any such donations up to individuals.
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ben_thatmustbeme just my opinion though
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bear tantek___ - i feel she is looking at who we work for and assuming that we are all in Indieweb *for* our companies
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danlyke ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 12 karma
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme I presume you mean expression of grief? I do not consider her comments to be "griefing" in the trolling manner.
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barnabywalters tantek__ agreed
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@wilkieii RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512995537814290432)
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gRegor` bear: Yeah, I think so.
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barnabywalters followups to the “what I want to see” tweet: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512994382237024256
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@shanley Also, giving fucktons of tech jobs to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/512994382237024256)
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gRegor` Like "what is indieweb doing to tear down the structural problems in tech" seems to be the thrust
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barnabywalters https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512994596050046978
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@shanley NOT: manifestos on diversity, white-male led conferences, and fucking about like a child in the file system to build your shitty homepage. (twitter.com/_/status/512994596050046978)
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@blakeirvin @postwait The "note" below http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#Fragile ... Thank goodness I was introduced to Fishpong today, or I'd be in a terrible mood now. (twitter.com/_/status/512995838411673600)
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i mean in the trolling manner. case in point ^
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tantek___ well we don't have any manifestos - not sure what that's about
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@mojinations OK, I try to be constructive as much as I can but this rant from Indie Web Camp is profoundly stupid: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512995883835613185)
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gRegor` "manifesto" is referring to ind.ie
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tantek___ most indiewebcamps have been co-organized by men and women. we can improve there for sure.
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gRegor` Aral engaged her last night after she was talking about /database-antipattern
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barnabywalters tantek__: there was some IWC/ind.ie confusion — but also, many IWC wiki pages could be seen as maifestoes
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tantek___ oh dear
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@brycv RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512996102585724928)
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tantek___ what is a manifesto?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "manifesto" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=manifesto
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barnabywalters e.g. /databases-antipattern as anti-database manifesto
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tantek___ case in point :)
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tantek___ the irony is that these tweets may live longer in our IRC logs than at their permalinks.
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tantek___ barnabywalters - reasoned criticism != manifesto
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@_jeremyharris RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512996682586652672)
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ben_thatmustbeme basically its more looking like shanley is trying the 'attack the speaker to discredit the argument' argument (there is a phrase for that, i swear). Which i consider to have lost discourse. there was discussion of CAP and ACID and future friendly, but shanley has lost that. a
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barnabywalters tantek___ tbh a lot of what was on /databases-antipattern before tommorris made those copyedits was really not reasoned criticism, e.g. unrelated citations, sweeping generalisations
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme so ignore what you consider to be bad arguments, and focus on those that have more merit. e.g. the lack of diversity.
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@grmpyprogrammer RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512996972996096000)
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tantek___ barnabywalters, right, we should keep improving that page
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barnabywalters most productive way forward right now: ignore database plumbing nonsense argument, focus on actual diversity problem
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tantek___ with every retweet of emotional criticism (e.g. "Words cannot express") the page gets better.
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gRegor` barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 69 karma
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tantek___ and I disagree about "build your shitty homepage" - do whatever it takes to "build your shitty homepage" - start somewhere.
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ben_thatmustbeme lack of diversity is another issue shanley is using as attack on the DB issue. Its a known problem we have been discussing, but honestly shanley isn't providing discourse there, just pointing a finger and saying look they aren't diverse.
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@choult RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512997420410867713)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme I guess I don't see it like that. They are two separate issues to handle separately.
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neuro` I fear it will be the case every time we disagree with her.
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tantek___ neuro` there is no "we" - we all express our own opinions
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@AD7six RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512997559397539840)
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ben_thatmustbeme i agree, they should be, and I don't mind discussion on either
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tantek___ please do not make this into any kind of us vs. them or her
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neuro` tantek___: I use "we" as "anyone"
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neuro` sorry if it was not clear.
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tantek___ neuro` in English it is not viewed like that
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neuro` tantek___: just understood
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@TrevorMW RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512997797650784256)
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neuro` so s/we/anyone/
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tantek___ use of "we" implies a consensus collective that is as a whole responding to others or someone - which is not the case here.
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tantek___ even use of "anyone" is not helpful.
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gRegor` tantek___: see my pm?
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tantek___ see Wikipedia:weasel words
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neuro` Hey, I just learn something really important here.
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@CalEvans RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512997948775731201)
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@nomadphp RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512997978051977216)
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neuro` will blog about it in French because that's really important
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@daycamp4devs RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512998011040169984)
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tantek___ gRegor` I'm on the web IRC UI hence no PM :)
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ben_thatmustbeme that would be a cool feature to add
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tantek___ I'm just waiting for KevinMarks to wake up and reply to the tweetstorm he started ;)
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@reinergaertner Bye-bye, Google & co. - unabhängig von Datenkraken. Mein Selbstversuch: http://rgae.de/24 #indieweb, #Synology #BaikalServer #yourls (twitter.com/_/status/512998290032717824)
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@virtadpt RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512998328921890816)
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@phpdreams RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512998496975060992)
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aaronpk wow oh man what a tweetstorm
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tantek___ who would have thought so many people would be afraid of having their database assumptions questioned? ("stay away from here" = fear)
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ben_thatmustbeme indeed, its pretty crazy
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@awebneck RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512998734179758081)
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ben_thatmustbeme I really like the idea at looking up who has personal sites from those who tweeted today
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tantek___ aaronpk - it appears that there's quite the "cargo cult" of database programmers.
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danlyke or "stay away from here" = "dear deities, I've had to maintain code that started from this premise".
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tantek___ (all those who are tweeting/responding purely emotionally)
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bear I reached out to postwait with a response since he comes from the ops world
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bear but he hasn't replied yet
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@gRegorLove Attacks are not OK. If you are #indieweb and attacking @shanley, stop it. Reference: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512993514150326272 (twitter.com/_/status/512999081270996992)
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tantek___ thanks bear
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tantek___ gregornobacktick++
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Loqi gregornobacktick has 18 karma
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danlyke ben_thatmustbeme I first saw the opinion expressed from Rafe Coburn, propietor of RC3.org.
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gRegor` tantek___: Ah, ok. I was just asking about phrasing for that tweet. But there it is. :)
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@HyShai This has got to be satire. Right? (TLDR; don't use databases) http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512999214591537152)
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barnabywalters danlyke: personal sites are not often passed on to new maintainers IME
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@cath0de :eyeroll: "Using databases [for] primary storage [...] is considered by some in the community to be an antipattern." http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512999315716202497)
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@eryzamasaki RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512999339388465152)
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ben_thatmustbeme there was a stat a little while back about the number of people who share/retweet without actually reading the article/page
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danlyke barnabywalters true, but most of us in the long-term blogging community also work in software development.
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ben_thatmustbeme its was fairly staggering. many people may see the comment, visit the page, read the first few lines then retweet
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barnabywalters danlyke: however, indiewebcamp.com is predominantly about building personal sites and managing personal content
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ben_thatmustbeme bear, what are you looking for in the ops world?
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bear I don't follow your question
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ben_thatmustbeme "I reached out to postwait with a response since he comes from the ops world"
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bear @postwait is an ops person and someone I've interacted with in the past
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ben_thatmustbeme didn't know the context
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tantek___ aaronpk - how's the indiewebcamp.com traffic today? ;)
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danlyke barnabywalters yes, but all the homebrew webloggers I know personally use their personal sites to develop and hone skills that they hope to deploy professionally.
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aaronpk uh good question....
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bear ben_thatmustbeme - it's one of the RT storms from earlier
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@brandonsavage RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/512999919112953856)
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aaronpk how can we reasonably clear up the difference between ind.ie and indiewebcamp?
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tantek___ what is ind.ie?
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Loqi ind.ie is a website created by Aral Balkan for the Indie Tech Manifesto http://indiewebcamp.com/ind.ie
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aaronpk that's pretty good
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aaronpk wow we've had quite the uptick in traffic over the past few weeks
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tantek___ aaronpk - as long as there is a word/prefix overlap, the confusion will re-occur
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tantek___ what is manifesto
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "manifesto" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=manifesto
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ben_thatmustbeme aaronpk, i'm not surprised, Known has really got some major news
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aaronpk the database-antipattern post is getting by far the most traffic today
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aaronpk 70 active users on the site right now
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ben_thatmustbeme lets hope they read more than that page
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aaronpk unlikely
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ben_thatmustbeme "theres no such thing as bad publicity" ? hopefully we will see some new people learn about us out of it all
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ben_thatmustbeme I can hope
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@DesignerDon This is a ridiculous article: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513000966946164736)
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barnabywalters danlyke: my experience has been 1) build DB-driven personal site, partly to learn skills which could be applied professionally 2) get a full-time programming job 3) no longer have time to maintain database-driven site
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aaronpk barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 70 karma
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tantek.com created /manifesto (+755) "start a stub to hopefully start clarifying things" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /longevity (+84) "expand and give context of principles" (view diff)
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tantek___ for everyone's review and edits/iteration...
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barnabywalters not sure where in /database-antipattern is the best place to reference https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/mysql-utf8mb4
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tantek___ what is a manifesto?
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Loqi A manifesto is "a published verbal declaration of the intentions, motives, or views of the issuer, be it an individual, group, political party or government" according to Wikipedia[1] http://indiewebcamp.com/manifesto
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@micahcowan RT @theerasmas: catching up on my timeline and apparently this is a real thing someone wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513002885425025024)
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tantek___ barnabywalters start a new section on "UTF8 problems" using all the text about UTF8 referenced in e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern#MySQL_portability
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ben_thatmustbeme at least people have something to cite, its not the misquote -> misunderstanding you see in other tweetstorms
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@SeKrebs RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513003115574874112)
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@epicpoodle RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/513003220268879872)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme and this is why we capture reasoned thoughts and opinions on the wiki
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rascul i've got known installed now but i can't seem to find any docs about how to get the posse stuff going
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tantek___ rascul, perhaps start an FAQ section on http://indiewebcamp.com/Known with "How do setup POSSE?"
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tantek___ er, "How do I setup POSSE?"
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neuro` I may be wrong, but I don't understand the purpose of that database antipattern page on the IndieWebcamp wiki. I mean, I don't understand how it is related to Indieweb.
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rascul that could be a good idea
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tantek___ neuro` in one word: longevity.
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tantek___ part of the reason we are frustrated with /silos are their inevitable /site-deaths and loss of content and permalinks, thus one of the indieweb principles is building for the long web /longevity.
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tantek___ and as soon as you start thinking & designing for longevity you realize longevity of your *content* and *data* is critical, and when you design for that, you find that databases are *bad* for longevity. hence antipattern.
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tantek___ neuro` - good question regardless. worthy of adding to an FAQ on /database-pattern
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tantek___ want to try adding it?
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aaronpk I have to say, one of the things I am very happy about this community is when people complain about an article on the wiki, many jump in and improve it
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neuro` tantek___: I understand the point of view. I'm probably too much involved in ops and data longevity / reusability not to consider SQL in general a not so bad solution to handle data that have relation between them.
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neuro` Thank you very much for clarifying.
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tantek___ neuro` if that answer makes sense to you, could you write it up in /database-antipattern#FAQ ?
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tantek___ e.g. "How is this related to the indieweb?"
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neuro` tantek___: I will think about it during the week-end, need time to compute all the information about that antipattern and what it means in real life.
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neuro` tantek___: will do for adding that to the FAQ
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ben_thatmustbeme is trying to decide where to put his examples of having AIM chat logs going back 12 years because they are in flat files
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tantek___ neuro` for now you could just copy/paste what made sense from the above IRC - no additional "think about" needed.
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme /longevity#Examples
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@rblackfriends RT @shanley: This is a photo from another indie web conference this year: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp2014-sf.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/513005043248021504)
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@rblackfriends RT @shanley: The same conference, the year before: http://indiewebcamp.com/File:indie-web-camp-2013.jpg (twitter.com/_/status/513005050541899776)
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neuro` BTW I have exactly the same issue with my photos: can't make my mind digital photographies are meant to last, because the image format change.
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@zenaynay RT @shanley: #indieweb the thing about not using databases is really just too rich for words. (twitter.com/_/status/513005397175992320)
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@zenaynay RT @shanley: What I want to see from #indieweb: radical diversion of tech $$$ to marginalized internet users. (twitter.com/_/status/513005431674122241)
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danlyke neuro` in the two+ decades I've been screwing around with digital photography, ImageMagick has only added formats.
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tantek___ what is ImageMagick?
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Loqi ImageMagick is open source software for editing images http://indiewebcamp.com/ImageMagick
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aaronpk ironically storing things in camera RAW format is the most fragile
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danlyke (Well, ImageMagick didn't exist when I first started playing with digital photos via Targa capture of video camera input, but...)
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aaronpk because each manufacturer has their own RAW format
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danlyke aaronpk yes, which is why multi-format backup is important.
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danlyke (ie: get that RAW to deep TIFF *and* JPEG and carry both of those forward)
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aaronpk I'm also normally a proponent of storing/archiving things in their most original format, but that has bitten me many times in the past now.
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tantek___ aaronpk - that's reasonable as half a strategy.
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tantek___ basically, what danlyke said.
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aaronpk Several times I would have much preferred to have a lossy/uneditable jpg or mp3 or pdf version rather than the original version which may be in some proprietary format
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tantek___ original format + an open/portable format
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@kieranajp RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513006222057164800)
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aaronpk for example I still have a folder of old cakewalk express files which are essentially unusable now, where they would have been somewhat useful as midi files
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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ben_thatmustbeme huh, have people really just created all their own templates?
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t37.net edited /database-antipattern (+567) "/* FAQ */" (view diff)
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neuro` danlyke: what about raw file formats? And quality loss when converting from one to another? And how do I know my kids will be able to view my jpeg files in 30 years?
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kylewm isn't there a version of TIFF files that's basically just a text listing of rgb pixels?
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ben.thatmustbe.me created /Template:user (+180) "Created page with "<span class="h-card"><a href= "http://{{{1}}}" class="u-url">{{#if: {{{3|}}} | {{sparkline|{{{3}}}}} | }}</a> <span class="p-name p-nickname">[[User:{{{1}}}|{{{2}}}]]</span></span>"" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+346) "shorten FAQ, remove strawman-like language" (view diff)
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danlyke neuro` that's why multiple formats, and one of them lossless (ie: TIFF) if you can justify the space. Also, you *must* have an ongoing process for reading back those files. I've lost a few jpgs over the years because of filesystem corruption.
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /longevity (+424) (view diff)
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danlyke neuro` also, remember that preserving slides/negatives/prints is not a "throw it in a shoebox" deal either, all materials, virtual or real, degrade over time.
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neuro` danlyke: my photos are stored in at least 3 places, so no worries about that.
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danlyke neuro` three formats is as important as 3 places.
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neuro` danlyke: will have to write a script for that then.
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neuro` and multiply my storage by 3
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ben_thatmustbeme gah, i always forget to put my change comments in
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /longevity (+9) "make examples a list" (view diff)
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rascul i forget sometimes too
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@ffee_machine RT @theerasmas: catching up on my timeline and apparently this is a real thing someone wrote http://indiewebcamp.com/databases-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513008321079427073)
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danlyke neuro` like "find . -name '*.crw' -print0 | xargs -0 dcraw -v" ?
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@Jack_Franklin RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513008790355329024)
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@SherazG5 RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513008818695852032)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+109) "How is this related to the indieweb linky linky, minor wording tweaks, expand See Also" (view diff)
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neuro` danlyke: and also send pictures everywhere
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danlyke neuro` an oft half-started and abandoned project is something that is kinda like rsync but with whole file versioning. git doesn't do images very well...
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danlyke neuro` also, an image manager that understands all the different places I've spewed images over the years. Sigh.
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arcatan the db article seems to be getting lots of attention :P
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tantek___ and it needs a proper dfn and summary at the top
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neuro` danlyke: I was wrong, I have my photos in more than 3 places: SAN, DVDs, S3, Dropbox, own server.
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tantek___ welcome arcatan! are you a math fan?
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arcatan not sure if fan. student, though.
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tantek___ what's your personal site?
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@rbin RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513009841766666240)
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@neuissa RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513009979713138689)
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aaronpk arcatan: and also lots of improvement! http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13411&oldid=13272
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arcatan tantek___: http://miikka.me has my h-card, http://quanttype.net/ has some writings. it's not very indieweb yet.
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bnvk ahoy
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alanpearce__ Nice writings on your site arcatan :)
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@cfJquery RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513011095477702658)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+330) "summary dfn at top" (view diff)
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tantek___ what is the database antipattern?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the database antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+database+antipattern
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tantek___ hmm, loqi should drop "the" from such queries
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Loqi dude
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tantek___ like it drops "a"
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tantek___ what is a database antipattern?
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Loqi The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content e.g http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
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aaronpk good call
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tantek___ oops, "e.g." cause it to trim the dfn
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aaronpk turns out finding the end of a sentence is surprisingly hard
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+2) "drop use of e.g. since Loqi's regex seems to trim at that" (view diff)
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alanpearce I started using double-spaced sentences for that reason
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tantek___ what is a database antipattern?
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alanpearce They collapse rather nicely in HTML, too :)
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Loqi The database antipattern is the use of a database for primary long-term storage of posts and other personal content (like on an indieweb site), and is an anti-pattern due to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence, and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern
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tantek___ how's that for a summary?
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tantek___ arcatan nice sites! is it deliberate that the first site with h-card does not link to your second site with writings?
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@steven_barker RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513012061186437120)
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@sphinxsearch RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513012061203218432)
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aaronpk I like the use of uninspectability and platform-dependence there because they are pretty objective things. maintenance costs and long-term fragility are less objective IMO.
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tantek___ I wonder if those saying/retweeting "stay away from here" and then linking to something realize the psychology that causes people to then *not* stay away?
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tantek___ aaronpk - we should have citations for all of them
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aaronpk agreed
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neuro` tantek___: probably not.
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bnvk I think the indie web/tech confusion has reached boiling point, *sigh*
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tantek___ bnvk - tweets do not make a boiling point
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tantek___ wait til there's confusion in an actual press article - then it's an actual serious problem
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tantek___ until then it's just isolated incidents of ephemeral confusion
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tantek___ You're not going to boil an egg by tweeting about it.
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@aaronpk Great example of how to handle Internet criticism: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 Thanks #indiewebcamp for being... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/09/19/2/indiewebcamp (twitter.com/_/status/513012939377217538)
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arcatan tantek___: a good point, i should add a link
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aaronpk yes I did just post a link to a wiki diff
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tantek___ arcatan http://miikka.me/ is very nice and clean!
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tantek___ also you already have some good indieweb support! http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmiikka.me%2F
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tantek___ I believe you can setup your GPG key also for sign-in somehow
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bnvk tantek___: it was just a metaphor, not meant to be taken literally
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tantek___ what is GPG?
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Loqi OpenPGP (Pretty Good Privacy) is a message exchange format that uses public key cryptography to enable people to exchange encrypted and/or signed data http://indiewebcamp.com/GPG
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tantek___ bnvk - I know, and I was criticizing the use of the metaphor as an exaggeration.
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tantek___ hey aaronpk, can you add a link from http://indiewebcamp.com/GPG to wherever it is that it is documented how to setup your GPG to use with IndieAuth?
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@juan_cg RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513014596060200961)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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@simeydotme RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513015386321608704)
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tantek___ bear, was it @postwait that you were having a side-discussion with?
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bear I was trying to engage him but radio silence so far
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@ericlbarnes RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513015971674849281)
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bear @paddyforan also tried to engage him about it
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danlyke @postwait is getting the retweets, but others have mentioned it independently, so I suspect there's a common blog post somewhere...
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@danlyke @rafeco I'm in the #indiewebcamp IRC, and much discussion ensues. Was there a blog post, or @postwait's tweet, that you found that from? (twitter.com/_/status/513016449351180289)
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arcatan i want to implement notes for my site, but one problem is that i'm using Hakyll as a site generator and it's actually pretty hard to use even though I'm okay at Haskell.
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arcatan i'm now trying to figure out whether to try to beat Hakyll or to ditch it
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alanpearce arcatan: static generators need some extra bits to work as great indieweb systems :(
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alanpearce Have you used Haskell for webdev before? I've been curious about building my own system with it :)
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tantek___ what is Haskell?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Haskell" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Haskell
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tantek___ what is Hakyll?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Hakyll" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hakyll
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arcatan alanpearce: i haven't used it for webdev really, apart from some really small experiments
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alanpearce Ah, fair enough. Small experiments aren't great to make conclusions from :)
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arcatan yeah
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@schneitj @gRegorLove I'm curious, what is the indieweb anti-database argument? (twitter.com/_/status/513018191933874176)
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arcatan i love static generators for how easy it's to host the static sites, but i guess indieweb is a bit more dynamic than that
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alanpearce Yeah, it can be done with helpers like bridgy, but it doesn't feel right for me
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arcatan yeah
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tantek___ arcatan you can do plenty with the indieweb with static site generators
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tantek___ what is a static site generator?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "static site generator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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danlyke arcatan, I'm a fan of building the aggregation stuff into off-line or reader based tools. Helps cut down on spam and DDOS potential.
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@nathanbowser Is http://indiewebcamp.com the new daily wtf? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513018680947798016)
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ben_thatmustbeme hmmm, micropub doesn't have any sort of option for Yes/No when posting RSVP
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tantek___ really? wow. hey bret since you're living the static indieweb site generator life, could you start http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator ?
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ben_thatmustbeme would mean editing in my micropub client as html, instead of just a textfield
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure micropub lets you add any additional properties you need, e.g. rsvp=yes
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tantek___ or maybe it's p-rsvp=yes - aaronpk would know better
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tantek___ would a condescending wonka meme at the top of /database-antipattern be helpful?
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@jcox92 RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/513019636380872704)
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ben_thatmustbeme wonka meme?
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danlyke ben_thatmustbeme: http://www.quickmeme.com/Condescending-Wonka/
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek___ couldn't find anything about it, but I'm thinking i'm going to have to start doing that as I am going to need additional features soon. I just want others to still be able to use it
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ben_thatmustbeme ohhh yeah
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@pajruiter RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513019995723673600)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme pretty sure micropub lets you add anything you want to your h-entry (or other object type) that you're posting
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tantek___ it's just a conduit for posting microformats objects to (presumably new) permalink URLs on your site
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tantek___ you can post an h-card for a venue for example and then reference it in an h-entry checkin or an h-event p-location
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tantek___ "Tell me again how much you like spending time maintaining and backing up your personal databases in addition to backing up your file system which you already do."
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce 'filesplaining'?
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tantek___ what is filesplaining?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "filesplaining" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=filesplaining
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce :)
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ben_thatmustbeme still maintaining about a 75-80% of people in this tweetstorm have their own site
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tantek___ that's a good sign at least
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aaronpk so definitely getting bridgy errors with my new expiring webmention endpoint
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alanpearce ben_thatmustbeme: Did you look at the hosting platforms for those sites?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___ aaronpk does bridgy have a special UA that you can then give it its own long-term webmention endpoint?
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aaronpk yeah probably should do some hack like that
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ben_thatmustbeme no, just looking if they have urls in their profiles
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ben_thatmustbeme ti do a quick check test to elimnate people just posting facebook or github links though
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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aaronpk it's kind of subtle. just includes "appid: s~brid-gy" in the user agent along with a bunch of google appengine stuff
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme better yet - test such URLs for rel=me setup http://indiewebify.me/validate-rel-me/
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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aaronpk b 21
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tommorris ZOMG MY TRUCK IS AWESOME WHY DO YOU GUYS USE A BIKE IT DOESN'T HAVE POWER STEERING
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tommorris ^ basically most of the database argument
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aaronparecki.com edited /pgp (+325) "/* Authentication */ add brief explanation of using pgp with indieauth" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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aaronpk tommorris++
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Loqi tommorris has 49 karma
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tantek___ tommorris++ excellent analogy
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Loqi tommorris has 50 karma
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tommorris (The reverse applies. Sometimes there are valid use cases for trucks too.)
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tantek___ wait does that make flat files the fixie of the indieweb?
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alanpearce We are so hipster.
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bear I would recommend moving the first FAQ entry to the top of that wiki page - most folks are not going to get that far into it
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tantek___ bear, nah, I'd rather focus on the actual crux of the antipattern rather than open defensively
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tantek___ if the best people have is mockery, especially in tweets on a silos, then it's not a big deal
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rascul 15 edits on /database-antipattern today heh
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tantek___ s/a silos/silos
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Loqi tantek___ meant to say: if the best people have is mockery, especially in tweets on silos, then it's not a big deal
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bear I'm just tired of dealing with people this week
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@Crell This reads like one of those hipster parodies. Please do not attend this conf on the risk that they're serious: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513025827857248257)
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tantek___ bear, that's ok, stick to concepts and code then :)
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aaronpk my train internet is quickly failing
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rascul http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/ lists sql databases as a harmful thing :)
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tantek___ lol ^^^ hipster reference predicted
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alanpearce We used the hipster reference before it was cool.
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tantek___ guy with Garfield in a fedora as his icon/avatar is talking about "risk that they're serious"
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tantek___ congratulations, we've reached step 2: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi##then%20they%20laugh%20at%20you
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alanpearce :D
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bear tantek___ - with the exception of replying to @sogrady I am going to be avoiding people today I think
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tantek___ perhaps those of us that use flatfiles need little badges/images: "100% database free" e.g. like https://www.google.com/search?q=100%25+gmo+free&tbm=isch
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alanpearce I find those kind of things kind of pretentious.
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bear I ended up removing all of those badge thingies as it felt to cargo-cult to me - even when I firmly knew that it wasn't
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kylewm or "built with notepad" https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/38780898/notepad.jpg
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tantek___ true on both points, I find the badges to be OOTP enough to hopefully come across as somewhat tongue-in-cheek
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neuro` kylewm: made with vim?
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tantek___ "using BBEdit" :)
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alanpearce "made with an editor I crafted myself using a microphone and shell redirection"
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tantek___ since there's so much passion around it, perhaps it's time for a NoDB project. E.g. MySQL->NoSQL->NoDB
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neuro` Considering I've made my own blogware, I can display that even though it's relying on a database
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ben_thatmustbeme haha, showed my friend /database-antipattern "lol, well, it turns the tables on the DB religious warriors. MySQL-zealots hate PostGres-zealots who also hate SQL Server zealots, and then you got Oracle... as soon as someone comes along and says, "Should we use databases at all?" they all have found a common enemy."
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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neuro` ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 13 karma
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme++ poke all the zealots!
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 14 karma
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bear ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi dude
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tantek___ :D
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bear hush loqi
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Loqi who, me?
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bear ben_thatmustbeme++
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ben_thatmustbeme haha
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ben_thatmustbeme loqi got overstimulated
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bear yea
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tantek___ the car analogy applies again. it's like the Ford vs. Chevy (MySQL vs Postgres) arguments, and then show up with a bicycle.
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ben_thatmustbeme who brings a flat file to a database fight?
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neuro` This debate in interesting / funny for us tech people. But from an end user experience point of view, having to pick up a database / setup flat file storage to start publishing on the Web is a huge problem
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tantek___ who brings reason to a twitter fight?
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neuro` tantek___: even more on Friday night
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ben_thatmustbeme HAH! tantek++
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 78 karma
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alanpearce I guess they store reason in a flat file rather than a database, so they don't know how to look for it
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bear ben_thatmustbeme++
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme has 15 karma
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neuro` http://xkcd.com/386/ I think this applies pretty much
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tantek___ step 1: pick a cargo cult aspect of web dev. step 2: write up a wiki page debunking it. step 3: wait for someone to discover it on Twitter, reach emotionally, and spread awareness of it.
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tantek___ s/reach/react
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Loqi tantek___ meant to say: step 1: pick a cargo cult aspect of web dev. step 2: write up a wiki page debunking it. step 3: wait for someone to discover it on Twitter, react emotionally, and spread awareness of it.
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alanpearce Hmm.
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alanpearce What is ruby-on-rails-antipattern
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "ruby-on-rails-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=ruby-on-rails-antipattern
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tantek___ lol!
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tantek___ what is ruby?
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Loqi Ruby is a programming language and web server runtime environment used for some IndieWeb projects http://indiewebcamp.com/Ruby
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tantek___ what is rails?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "rails" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=rails
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind (-386) "/* Features */ remove references to flat files" (view diff)
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tantek___ postpones
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tantek___ darn
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kylewm.com edited /Red_Wind () "(-1769) /* Filestore */" (view diff)
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tantek___ so /me is not quite web IRC client supported
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alanpearce was fine here
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ben_thatmustbeme no, i noticed that
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kylewm it only grabs the first word
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ben_thatmustbeme it only does the first word
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alanpearce Oh.
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ben_thatmustbeme jinx
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tantek___ what I said was
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@mjkirk RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513031343513407488)
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ben_thatmustbeme it also doesn't display well in the logs
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kylewm Loqi cool it with the retweets
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ben_thatmustbeme uses /me now
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tantek___ postpones writing up /object-oriented-programming-antipattern ;)
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bear ha!
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bear what is programming-antipattern?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "programming-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=programming-antipattern
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ben_thatmustbeme programming-language-antipattern we should be writing in assembly clearly
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alanpearce We should all be using lisp machines.
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Loqi yea
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ben_thatmustbeme what happens when the compiler doesn't work for that older code anymore
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alanpearce It must be fine because it is plain text?
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tantek___ tommorris is there a Mediawiki conditional for "not logged in" ?
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme I have that problem with my HyperTalk code.
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bear there must be since the please login box only appears when i'm not
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@cwage wut http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513032300313853952)
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tommorris tantek___: not sure.
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alanpearce Oh look, cat-v already has a page on OOP http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/OO_programming/
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tantek.com edited /principles (+21) "Longevity" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Longevity (+23) "r" (view diff)
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Jeena I have been googling for hours but can't find out if it is possible to use a custom port for Wake On LAN instead of the default one which is 9. Does someone here know that perhaps?
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Jeena (on linux that is)
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tantek.com edited /longevity (+381) "add Jeremy Keith The Long Web talk / blog post" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+194) "some general indieweb header info in the hopes of broadening understanding and context" (view diff)
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bear \o/ engagement for the win - the todogroup.org folks removed the /# urls from their site
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tantek.com edited /database-antipattern (+34) "home page too - has a good overview" (view diff)
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tantek___ alright fine alanpearce - I blame you
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alanpearce What did I do? :(
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tantek.com created /object-oriented-programming-antipattern (+531) "stub with dfn and reference to existing article with even more detail and depth." (view diff)
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tantek___ This ^^^
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tantek___ alanpearce
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alanpearce :D
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tantek___ gives
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tantek___ darn it
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alanpearce After working on Symfony2 projects for the past few months, I would agree with it.
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tantek___ gives Loqi a jug of fuel to place next to the current tweet fire.
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Loqi runs away from the jug of fuel to place next to the current tweet fire.
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alanpearce Loqi knows not to stay near fuel and fire :D
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tantek___ wow that was one of Loqi's smartest moves I've seen.
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alanpearce Loqi++
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Loqi Loqi has 296 karma
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tantek.com edited /antipatterns (+84) "add object oriented programming" (view diff)
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tantek___ there we go - two clicks from the /database-antipattern article, so it should take a while for the tweet fire to discover it (if at all)
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@joe_jag RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513036573139795968)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@aral .@shanley It’s not about you, it’s about some of the points you raised. One of the main ones: indie *tech* is not indieweb (& vice versa) (twitter.com/_/status/513036620233474049)
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Loqi [mention] http://gregorlove.com/notes/2014/09/19/6/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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@gRegorLove @schneitj There are pro- and anti- opinions in the community. It’s not a monoculture. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern got a lot of snark today. (twitter.com/_/status/513036912135643136)
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@gRegorLove @schneitj On the plus side, it has led to a lot of improvements to that wiki page today. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513037224988786688)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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alanpearce wow. I wonder if I should filter messages with @shanley in them as well as muting+blocking her on twitter...
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tantek___ re: ind.ie tech vs. indie web: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0079470/quotes?item=qt0471952
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tantek___ (as in, I expect that's what anyone outside hears when anyone tries to distinguish them)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/513036912135643136/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek___ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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ben_thatmustbeme hahaha
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@LamontGranquist oh FFS, shitty filesystem-based databases with XML, did i wake up in 2001 this morning? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513038942463995904)
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bret ack, KevinMarks no more inviting comment from known trolls please ;p
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danlyke the obvious answer to the database discussion: TextQL.
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tantek___ hey bret see above about static site generators (since you've gotten it to work quite well) http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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bret tantek___: most of my work went into http://indiewebcamp.com/Jekyll but I can expand static site generation
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bret i dont think there are any obvious answers to dbs
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tantek___ I mean just create a stub about it
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tantek___ linking to Jekyll
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bret tantek___: good idea i have a crapton of good ssg links
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tantek___ and apparently there's Hakyll too now? (in Haskell)
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bear hmm, him doing that will cause me to also add more content to my static site stuff
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tantek___ both of which could use their own stub pages
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@sdawncasey RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513040156907933696)
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bret tantek___: there are literally a bajillion ssg's because they are generally easy projects to write... most are not so good though
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tantek___ bret - good to document that there's a spectrum of quality
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alanpearce There's even two comparison sites: http://www.staticgen.com/ and http://staticsitegenerators.net/
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bear wow
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bear alanpearce++
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Loqi alanpearce has 2 karma
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bear I had no idea about those two sites
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alanpearce Maybe we need a static site generator comparison site comparison site
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tantek___ what is a static site generator?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "static site generator" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=static+site+generator
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alanpearce Although I definitely prefer the latter one
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tantek___ walks away for a few minutes
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tantek.com created /me (+17) "r due to IRC logs auto-link reference" (view diff)
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kylewm bret: re "most are not so good though", are any of them good?
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kylewm I kinda hated all of the ones I tried
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alanpearce I've been using Hugo for a while, but I want to move away from it
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kylewm ah yeah I thought hugo was interesting, it seemed very general
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bret kylewm: you its a lesson in working with a narrow slice of design decisions, often made by other people ;)
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bret kylewm: jekyll is what I use. its getting better faster than my needs are growing
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alanpearce And those design decisions can change, breaking all your RSS feed URLs https://github.com/spf13/hugo/issues/467 :(
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kylewm I've heard good things about Middleman also, apparently it is good for prototyping Rails apps
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bret but people who import 5000 wordpress posts have to wait 5 mins every regeneration
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bear yea, I used Pelican and even PyBlosxom but then started to chaff against the design decisions
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bear and the extra work to integrate indieweb parts
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kylewm Pelican was the one that I was like "people actually like this??" :P
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KevinMarks__ My Procrustes talk is a kind of database, object oriented, map reduce, storytelling considered harmful
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bear kylewm yep - I started with it because I had done some support/maintenance work using it for another project
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bear so it was top-of-mind when I decided to go static
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@lo_fye RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513043097056710657)
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tantek___ what is Hugo?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Hugo" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Hugo
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tantek___ what is Middleman?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Middleman" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Middleman
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tantek___ what is Pelican?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Pelican" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Pelican
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tantek___ what is PyBlosxom?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "PyBlosxom" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=PyBlosxom
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tantek___ what is Procrustes?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "Procrustes" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=Procrustes
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tantek___ oh hey good morning KevinMarks! Thanks for all the social media attention! ;)
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KevinMarks__ I like this: https://twitter.com/sketchseven/status/513036455774793729
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@sketchseven @Glinner to paraphrase @bengoldacre: "you can’t reason someone out of a position they did not reason themselves into." (twitter.com/_/status/513036455774793729)
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tantek___ KevinMarks, hence Socratic method. You don't reason them out of a position, you simply ask questions about it until they talk themselves out of it.
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tantek___ I'll give Aral this, he's responding with reason, without yelling, without insulting anyone: https://twitter.com/aral/status/513036620233474049
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@aral .@shanley It’s not about you, it’s about some of the points you raised. One of the main ones: indie *tech* is not indieweb (& vice versa) (twitter.com/_/status/513036620233474049)
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@tommorris @rdlowrey @DesignerDon why do you need to multiplex IO for a personal blog - the context of indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513045809328189440)
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tantek___ tommorris you may need to multiplex IO if you're e.g. editing posts on multiple devices simultaneously
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tommorris Databases don't magically solve that problem
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@recifs database-antipattern - IndieWebCamp http://seenthis.net/index.php?action=seenli&me=6bmg (twitter.com/_/status/513046492815589376)
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tantek___ tommorris, to be fair, if two DB clients asynchronously "insert a row into a table", the DB handles both inserts atomically. whereas if two file clients write to a file, their writes may conflict and one may overwrite the other.
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alanpearce tantek___: not true of all databases :)
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tantek___ alanpearce really? yikes. maybe that's assuming an RDBMS?
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alanpearce Maybe.
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bear most rdbms' force that to be handled by the client, or worse, last-write-wins
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KevinMarks__ #notalldatabases
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tantek___ KevinMarks I resisted typing that.
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tantek___ please don't reply to shanley with that
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KevinMarks__ That is kinda how I started it
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danlyke alanpearce and tantek___ I think this is where we go to Philip Greenspun's "MySQL is not a database" talk.
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@adrienneleigh RT @shanley: the hypocrisy and lack of introspection is so deep in indieweb. DEEP. they want back pats and medals for poorly written manife… (twitter.com/_/status/513048552877350912)
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bret can we quote shanly's tweet at the top of the database-antipattern page? or is that too much of a backtroll
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alanpearce danlyke: I haven't seen that, but I like the sound of it
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tantek___ kevinmarks It's not helpful to reference/conflate with a much more problematic issue
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danlyke bear, I don't know an rdbms that doesn't have a sequence type which allows the database to manage simultaneous inserts from multiple clients.
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tantek___ bret - worse - it may come off as a personal attack
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tantek___ danlyke - right. that.
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danlyke alanpearce MySQL is a lot closer to a database nowadays than it was in the late '90s (before referential integrity and transactions).
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bear danlyke - true, my reply was without a lot of context and even not in the same context as the query - so i'm going to stop as to not make the conversation murkier
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bear sequencing is something you have to handle with the structure of the table your inserting into
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alanpearce danlyke: I've been burned by it enough times in the past few years to know that it's still pretty bad
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bear i'm just trying to say that it's not an assumption you can make across the board for rdbms'
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tantek___ has anyone here ever asked for back pats and medals? asking for a friend.
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danlyke alanpearce yeah, it still pushes a hell of a lot of stuff into the application developer's domain.
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@_CaseyJones_ o.O ... *spits drink* HAhaha Problem: Databases are an antipattern. Solution: Write your own flat-file database. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513049293502939136)
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danlyke tantek___ no medals, but I do sometimes ask friends for backpats. Usually they're proactive, though.
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alanpearce Silent truncation was one of my favourites. "Getting that annoying exception about no rows updated *again*"
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bear tantek___ that I feel is part of the ind.ie / indieweb confusion
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tantek___ on a more productive front, what do people think of the little context/intro I put at the top of http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern ? enough? not enough? needs anything more?
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neuro` tantek___: shouldn't it be can be considered an anti-pattern?
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alanpearce Looks pretty good. Would be nice to include the more general IWC/personal site text elsewhere
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bret tantek___: it helps I think. still most people coming to the page from a twitter argument are going to take a shallow reading of the page biased by whatever mob sent them there
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tantek___ neuro` no. "is" is correct since the context of *long-term* is explicitly made.
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rascul tantek___ which part are you referring to of /database-antipattern? the dfn part?
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tantek___ bret - yeah there's no helping the drive-by emo-readers. except maybe putting a cute picture of kittens at the top.
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tantek___ rascul the part before the "databases for storage" heading
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bret tantek++ to that idea
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Loqi tantek has 79 karma
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ben_thatmustbeme we could... might help
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rascul tantek___ i think it reads weird; "The database antipattern is the use of a database"
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tantek___ rascul, agreed. I tried rewording that a bunch to improve it and that was the best I could do for now.
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rascul hrm should "databases for storage" be capitalized in some manner?
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rascul the heading i mean
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tantek___ welcome snarfed!
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danlyke It occurs to me on phrasing that: Just as the map is not the terrain, the database is not the data. It's an organization of the data.
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neuro` tantek___: oh OK then. You've been showing how poor my English is twice tonight.
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tantek___ neuro` English is hard. Let's go coding. :)
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bret.io created /static_site_generator (+223) "Stubbed static site generators" (view diff)
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bret How do i do the what is tagging on a new page?
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neuro` tantek___: I'm perfectly OK with learning it the hard way, even being lectured in front of the whole channel :)
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rascul Database-antipattern refers to the additional maintenance costs, uninspectability, platform-dependence and long-term fragility of databases and their storage files.
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rascul tantek___ how about something more like that?
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tantek___ bret put <dfn>...</dfn> markup around the term in the summary definition at the top
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rascul then put the other stuff in the next sentence?
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danlyke neuro` I've been learning it since birth, four and a half decades ago, and I'm still picking up on nuance...
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tantek___ rascul - not quite because those are *disadvantages* - not the antipattern itself
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rascul hrm
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rascul it bothers me because it reads weird
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tantek___ to actually define an *antipattern*, you have to provide the example use which is bad and for what reasons
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bret that antipattern is how they are used or the frequency of their use in inapparopriate situations? like in blogs for non-technical people?
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tantek___ rascul - yeah, the wording/phrasing can be improved. thanks for working on suggestions.
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neuro` I'll agree with tantek___ on that one, even though I prefer rascul phrasing.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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rascul i don't know that i can come up with much better on my own!
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rascul words is hard
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bret grrr shanly saw this page isnt representing itself very well and really took advatage of that that. talk about harassment
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tantek___ bret - come on now, don't exaggerate. mocking a web page does not compare to harrassment of a person.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___ hey snarfed, would you be amenable to altering the markup in bridgy permalinks?
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tantek___ e.g. in the above mention
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tantek___ from this: <a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/jgarber/status/513019012360699904"></a> <time class="dt-published" datetime="2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00">2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00</time>
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@jgarber @aaronpk Good to see the constructive feedback on and evolution of the topic! 👍 (twitter.com/_/status/513019012360699904)
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tantek___ to this: <a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/jgarber/status/513019012360699904"><time class="dt-published" datetime="2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00">2014-09-19T17:37:18+00:00</time></a>
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@jgarber @aaronpk Good to see the constructive feedback on and evolution of the topic! 👍 (twitter.com/_/status/513019012360699904)
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bret tantek___: what is a good page/layout to model [[static site generator]] after?
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tantek___ that would have the effect of linking the datetime of the interaction to the permalink of the interaction which is both a common practice (linking dates to permalinks), and makes it so that the bridgy page is more human-useful
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tantek___ bret - simple summary definition at the top, and then flat set of headings that cluster similar things by topic
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@ggatin syndication-models - IndieWebCamp http://indiewebcamp.com/syndication-models (twitter.com/_/status/513057169256615939)
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@el_boby reading about indieweb… feature projects be like "While the core of p3k is not open source, many components are."… closing the tab (twitter.com/_/status/513058061192531968)
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tantek___ ouch
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ben_thatmustbeme ditto
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ben_thatmustbeme should invite @shanley to the next IWC
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alanpearce bites tongue
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ben_thatmustbeme :)
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tantek___ ben_thatmustbeme - indeed. and heck, invite all friends of yours who have or want their own indieweb site - starting with friends who look the least like you (as strange as that sounds)
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@dissolve333 @el_boby While some in #indiewebcamp don't open source their projects, doesn't mean you should dismiss the group… (https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2014/9/19/3/_) (twitter.com/_/status/513060078828544000)
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tantek___ nice reply ben_thatmustbe - now hook up your POSSE tweet copy to the original tweet using in_reply_to_status_id per http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Tweets
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finalcut I'm pretty sure @shanley made it clear she doesn't want to go to an IWC https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512993316346933249
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@shanley i would NEVER even consider going to a conference like that TBH b/c when i look at that photo i'm like, ahhh, a place where i'm not safe. (twitter.com/_/status/512993316346933249)
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@benwerd @chachasikes On the #indieweb you fully control your representation online & it's much harder for others to censor -- (twitter.com/_/status/513060527111553024)
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tantek___ finalcut - doesn't hurt to ask.
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@benwerd @chachasikes -- I'd *love* to help this community with @withknown. Will do what we can to help marginalized communities. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513060774067982336)
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tantek___ sometimes just the act of a personal invitation - like 1:1 - not necessarily broadcast on social media, can make a big difference
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finalcut doesn't hurt; but I just pointing out it is a serious uphill battle to get her there
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tantek___ finalcut - s/battle/journey
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ben_thatmustbeme doesn't matter, its the request that would be important I think
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tantek___ agreed - keep asking, politely
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finalcut perhaps. I would think she would find it more important to see a more diverse crowd there and a concrete plan/effort to get a more diverse crowd there than she would an invitation.
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tantek___ finalcut - we can do both
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finalcut I agree; but her stated position seems to imply the order of execution is kind of important
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petermolnar please don't get me wrong, but forcing diversity will not result any good; we need people interested in this topic, not a diverse "enough" crowd
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tantek___ finalcut - despite stated position, merely being friendly, polite, considerate with direct invitations will help show good faith
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finalcut I'm not suggesting forced diversity - i'm suggesting that it is important to figure out a way to sell the idea of the indie-web to people unlike ourselves
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ben_thatmustbeme she certainly seems interested int he topic
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tantek___ petermolnar, the assumption should be that there *is* a diverse "enough" crowd (as you say) that *is* interested in this topic. It's just the challenge of finding and inviting, welcoming etc. them
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finalcut and what tantek just said
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tantek___ assume there is diverse interest. now go find it.
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tantek___ oh and avoid tweeting inciteful hashtags late at night. ahem, Kevinmarks :P
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek___ saw you were going to be at IWCCambridge
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kylewm tantek__ Kevin tweeted #killalldatabases
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tantek___ yes I will be there!
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ben_thatmustbeme finally get to meet in person
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kylewm I don't think it was inciteful
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petermolnar there is a certain issue with diversity though, called language: many of the diverse enough crowd might not speak/read English at all
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tantek___ kylewm - yes, that's inciteful
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alanpearce I keep thinking that you guys are talking about Cambridge :(
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tantek___ kylewm anything with "kill*" in the name/tag is provocative if not inciteful
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kylewm tantek__: ok acknowledged... just didn't want you thinking it was #NotAll___ related
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ben_thatmustbeme Cambridge Mass, USA
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alanpearce Yeah, I know, then I forget again :)
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ben_thatmustbeme sorry alanpearce
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tantek___ kylewm - right, #Notall* would have been far worse :(
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petermolnar alanpearce I'm in the UK one, are you too?
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ben_thatmustbeme hey i'm just stoked there is something i don't have to go to NYC for... cause I don't want to go to NYC
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alanpearce petermolnar: no, but it's closer to me than Brighton
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petermolnar right :)
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tantek___ petermolnar, alanpearce: tommorris is working on organizing Homebrew Website Club London meetups - please get in touch and help out!
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petermolnar ok
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KevinMarks__ Also hadleybeeman
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hadleybeeman Hi. you rang?
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tommorris hadleybeeman: Homebrew Website Club London.
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tantek___ hadleybeeman - you back in London?
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KevinMarks__ Homebrew Website Club London?
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tommorris I might be able to coax WMUK to provide some space.
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bret.io edited /static_site_generator (+738) "Basic stub for SSGs. Everyone have at it!" (view diff)
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alanpearce London. :( Somewhat better though :)
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KevinMarks__ is not in London, despite plans
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hadleybeeman I am, Tantek — turns out i landed a few hours before you had dinner with tommorris :)
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petermolnar is close enough to London to be able to help
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tantek___ haldeybeeman - oh dear - we thought you were still out of the country. drat.
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tantek___ KevinMarks - you in SF today? shall we organize an informal last minute IndieWeb meetup?
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tantek___ we sould discuss some of these things in-person
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hadleybeeman I did, however, have a dinner scheduled. sadly. but we can catch up again at TPAC!
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rascul bret i'll expand on static site generators in due time
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tantek___ s/sould/should
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Loqi tantek___ meant to say: we should discuss some of these things in-person
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rascul quite possibly tonight
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@veganstraightedge My website is made by me. It's part of the #indieweb. I use a database (pg) as my primary data store. It's my site. Yours can do whatever. (twitter.com/_/status/513064165145989120)
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tantek___ what is pg?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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tantek___ !tell shaners what is pg? It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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rascul pg would be postgresql?
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petermolnar postgresql I guess
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@veganstraightedge We don't have to agree about datastore, programming language, host or much of anything. We all make HTML pages served over HTTP. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513064599277416448)
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tantek___ he's on a roll
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alanpearce I prefer serving mine over SPDY /pedantry
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tantek___ what is pedantry?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "pedantry" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pedantry
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tommorris hadleybeeman, tantek___, petermolnar, alanpearce: I'll probably set up a page on IWC wiki where we can collect together a list of people who would be keen on regularly (or irregularly) attending HWC-London. once that reaches a point where it would be worth finding a venue, we can then try rebooting it again
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alanpearce Nice :)
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tantek___ tommorris we have such a page - /Homebrew+Website+Club
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tommorris sign up there then. :)
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alanpearce As long as it's got enough notice that I can buy advance train tickets..
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hadleybeeman tommorris: I'd forgotten how much time I don't have (see latest FB post) — will help if I can but definitely don't want to be a bottleneck.
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tantek___ tommorris see http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew+Website+Club#Established_Meetings
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek, not going for 4 '
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ben_thatmustbeme 4 '_'s
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tantek___ and add London and yourself here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Homebrew+Website+Club#Up-and-coming_Meetings
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tommorris hadleybeeman: I don't have much time, although that tends to be self-imposed by my enjoying myself.
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tantek___ hadleybeeman - Homebrew Website Club is an hour every other week.
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hadleybeeman Fair enough, tommorris. I do applaud that :)
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tommorris would discuss further but realises he is on a logged channel.
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tantek___ aaronpk, I wonder how hard it would be for Loqi to keep a count of how many times a page has been asked for before and report that
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ben_thatmustbeme that should be pretty simple its just a DB increment on each request. Then we could get a list of top most requested pages
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tantek___ <<< You're the second person to ask that. It looks like we still don't have a page for "pedantry". ... >>>
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@adrienneleigh RT @shanley: Yeah. #indieweb. there is no evidence that this is a diverse movement. when i talk about it i get instantly attacked by 10 pat… (twitter.com/_/status/513066109948678144)
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tantek___ does anyone have the citations for the attacks that are referenced there ^^^
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tantek___ ?
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finalcut i didn't see any but one guy she calls out later did get nasty with her
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Mark87 who is this shanley person
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ben_thatmustbeme tantek___ i'm pretty sure the attacks on her were from the ind.ie crowd
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ben_thatmustbeme i know there were several calling her names that were in aral's feed
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@thethrum RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513066613591928833)
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finalcut https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512998365873700864
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@shanley WELL that was deleted fast. don't worry @barry_richards , @unisouthwales, i took screen shots https://twitter.com/shanley/status/512998365873700864/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/512998365873700864)
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finalcut that was the only one I saw; wouldn't surprise me if there were others
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek___ finalcut - ugh that sucks. :(
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___ danlyke++ for https://twitter.com/danlyke/status/513062047081185280
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@danlyke @shanley a shame. Many of us interested in open web interop would love more perspectives. Next meetup in SF Weds 9/24. (twitter.com/_/status/513062047081185280)
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finalcut tantek - yes; it was pretty inexcusable
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tantek___ well if there was any question as to why we have a /code-of-conduct - there it is
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@veganstraightedge There is a massive amount of prior art for "indie". And not just the #indieweb's use of it. (twitter.com/_/status/513067912408465408)
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tantek___ and http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why
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petermolnar tantek___ I would not send that page to @shanley, the reaction would be the same it was for Aral's manifesto, that as white male's we are not allowed to write about diversity...
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tantek___ petermolnar - I wouldn't presume that.
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tantek___ experience has shown largely positive response to *having* a code of conduct, especially for conferences
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ben_thatmustbeme danlyke++ for the tweet
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petermolnar I would hope not, but I've spent an hour reading that twitter war through
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Loqi danlyke has 2 karma
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tantek___ a code of conduct is about respect, not doing harm, and consequences if harm is done
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tantek___ a manifesto is more about raging against something
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tantek___ they're VERY different
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finalcut the tone on the code of conduct page is really good.
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tantek___ thank you finalcut. it took a lot of work.
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petermolnar that is very true, and I probably lack the depth of the English language to feel these immediately, sorry about that
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petermolnar and indeed the page is good
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finalcut you're welcome and I can tell it was not hastily written.
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@kevinmarks @shanley indiewebcamp has had a code of conduct from the beginning http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-why but it could certainly be more diverse (twitter.com/_/status/513068972426530817)
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tantek___ I invite you to sign it if you agree with it and want to make it clear you are available to help uphold it: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct#Signed
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tantek___ (that invitation goes for everyone here)
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KartikPrabhu is afraid to catch up on logs
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tantek___ kevinmarks that's not quite accurate.
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KevinMarks__ Apologies. I missed the first one
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finalcut I don't understand this instruction: "(sign with ~~~~)" what are the four tilde's representing?
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rascul wiki signature?
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tantek___ KevinMarks - no the "from the beginning". IndieWebCamp started in 2011.
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KevinMarks__ That's a macro the wiki will expand to your name and date
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tantek___ I wrote first draft of the code of conduct in 2013: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=code-of-conduct&action=history
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tantek___ let's not overstate our case
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kylewm I dont' think she has any desire to engage on this
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tantek___ kylewm - I'm not willing to presume less than good will, despite any tweet language.
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kevinmarks.com edited /code-of-conduct (+73) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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kylewm tantek__: I'm not presuming ill will; I just think people should stop @-ing her
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petermolnar.eu edited /code-of-conduct (+72) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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tantek___ welcome brianloveswords!
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brianloveswords Hi tantek___ !
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rawlinson.us edited /code-of-conduct (+70) "/* Code of Conduct */ signed by finalcut, Bill Rawlinson" (view diff)
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tantek___ kylewm - I'm ok with people continuing to write polite respectful replies.
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KevinMarks__ Tonight isn't going to work for me; I may not make next Wednesday either.
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tantek___ polite respect in the face of anything less than that will help demonstrate good will on the part of the community, in contrast to the name calling tweet that was screenshotted (have never heard of that person before)
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kylewm tantek__: I think the "10 patriarchial jerks" were not anbody actually attacking her, but replying and trying to correct her
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@kevinmarks RT @veganstraightedge: My website is made by me. It's part of the #indieweb. I use a database (pg) as my primary data store. It's my site. … (twitter.com/_/status/513070679642472448)
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ben.thatmustbe.me edited /code-of-conduct (+123) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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alanpearce Funny that there's a 'gender' option in the user profile with only three options.
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tantek___ alanpearce, which user profile?
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alanpearce after all this discussion :)
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alanpearce http://indiewebcamp.com/Special:Preferences
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ben_thatmustbeme trying to use a generic User template everywhere I put my name now on the site
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tantek___ oh in Mediawiki? FFS. Paging tommorris.
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kylewm alanpearce: why would anyone put anything other than "Unspecified" there
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alanpearce Exactly.
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barnabywalters really software which wants your gender in order to use correct pronouns shouls just have a text box where you type your preferred pronoun
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tantek___ In other news, another RSS aggregator is shutting down: http://feeds.adobe.com/
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alanpearce Trouble is, there are multiple types of pronouns
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alanpearce And they differ by language
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tommorris yeah, so the gender setting in mediawiki can be used by templates to give gender-specific pronouns
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barnabywalters having a text entry is still going to produce better results than a constrained dropdown though
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tommorris there's been some debate about it. it'd probably be better to have custom pronouns. feel free to lobby mediawiki devs or build a custom extension
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barnabywalters I’m not too familiar with the topic, or how it applies in languages other than English. Is it documented anywhere?
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alanpearce I can't think of anywhere specific, no.
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ben_thatmustbeme well in 1 day, /database-antipattern got the most number of edits by far
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shaners_ I think everyone should stop @-ing at Shanley. Regardless of what she's saying or what you think about it, it's doing no one any good right now. Me, you, her, the indieweb. Just everyone back away. Write whatever you want about whatever you want, just don't @mention her. Please.
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Loqi shaners_: tantek___ left you a message 31 minutes ago: what is pg? It looks like we don't have a page for "pg" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=pg
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shaners_ tantek___ pg = postgres
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shaners_ tantek_ you can just redirect pg to http://indiewebcamp.com/PostgreSQL
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tantek.com created /pg (+24) "r" (view diff)
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ben_thatmustbeme agreed shanners_ though i haven't seen many people @mention her in here
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ben_thatmustbeme but i'm only seeing part of the conversating
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ben_thatmustbeme s/conversating/conversation
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Loqi ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: but i'm only seeing part of the conversation
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tantek___ shaners thanks. done. could you add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/PostgreSQL#IndieWeb_Examples ?
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tantek.com created /postgres (+24) "r" (view diff)
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bret shaners++
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bret kylewm++
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Loqi shaners has 8 karma
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Loqi kylewm has 51 karma
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KartikPrabhu sheesh... I sleep when it is a fight about databases and now it has turned into a "white male thing"
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finalcut there were some crossed wires in the conversation I think KartikPrabhu
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tantek___ shaners, what's your reasoning behind not @-replying to shanley? I mean, OTOH I don't think ignoring someone is helpful either.
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ben_thatmustbeme there was another conversation between shanley and aral that seemed to bridge that
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KartikPrabhu hmm... well I'll continue to stay out of this
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finalcut best idea
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tantek___ shaners - on a more productive note, I presume you've seen http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct - just making sure - any thoughts?
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@tomwiththeweath RT @veganstraightedge: My website is made by me. It's part of the #indieweb. I use a database (pg) as my primary data store. It's my site. … (twitter.com/_/status/513074478122037248)
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tantek___ KevinMarks, I think you forgot a ";)" on this tweet: https://twitter.com/kevinmarks/status/512846942498340864
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@kevinmarks @shanley @veganstraightedge a book? Not a database? (twitter.com/_/status/512846942498340864)
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shaners_ tantek___ bc no one is gonna "win" this. everyone is dug in. and she's not interested in a debate or conversation about this. at least not right now.
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@thierrymarianne #OwnYourData @withKnown (co-founded by @erinjo & @benwerd) http://www.wired.com/2014/09/known https://github.com/idno/idno #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513074726684860417)
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shaners_ tantek_ bc we it's doing more damage than good right now
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KartikPrabhu never realised people were this horrifying passionate about which damn storage to use!
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shaners_ maybe there's space for a conversation about this in the future, but not right now.
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KartikPrabhu shaners_: I agree. it is getting too heated and fanatical
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ben_thatmustbeme kartikPrabhu http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-09-19/line/1411150636183
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@php_breaking RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513075078356299776)
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www.flutterby.net user:danlyke edited /PostgreSQL (+277) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ Adding Dan Lyke/ Flutterby.com/net" (view diff)
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KartikPrabhu ben_thatmustbeme: yeah read that in the logs... :)
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ben_thatmustbeme this morning that page was definitely a lot worse
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KartikPrabhu well I'm sticking to my idea: https://kartikprabhu.com/notes/internet-arguments
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tommorris KartikPrabhu: I'm not sure the primary question is about storage backends.</understatement> I'd go on, but I'm tired and drunk and have books to read.
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: yeah maybe now it isn't about storage. but it did start that way and escalated
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: happy reading
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ben_thatmustbeme i'm headed out too
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ben_thatmustbeme catch my train home
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ben_thatmustbeme take it easy all
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bret rascul++ thanks your interest in the ssg page
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Loqi rascul has 19 karma
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rascul i'll get to it in a few hours
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rascul rascul.io is from a static site generator i'm building
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bret nice!
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rascul not yet it's not!
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rascul my site is broken in a few ways that aren't immediately obvious ;)
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bret rascul: any interest in doing progressive regeneration?
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rascul yes
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@fforcen The Database Anti-pattern: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern?utm_source=dbweekly&utm_medium=email (twitter.com/_/status/513077593726545920)
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tantek___ shittyhomepage++ just start somewhere, ship early and often.
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Loqi shittyhomepage has 1 karma
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rascul content is stored in a git repo, i plan to have the capability to start from a certain point (ie commit) and generate new content from there
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bret ohh cool
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rascul adding new content would be as simple as starting from HEAD
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tantek___ hah! http://dbweekly.com/issues/30
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@z3ndrag0n RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513078086556872704)
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rascul tantek___ i've been waiting to see it pop up on hackernews heh
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tantek___ "The Database as an Anti-Pattern? / The IndieWeb is a ‘people-focused alternative’ to the ‘corporate Web’ and part of their thinking is that using databases for the primary storage of content is an anti-pattern due to maintainability and opacity. An extreme viewpoint but there are some reasonable points too. "
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rascul irt latest tweet via Loqi: i seem to think some of the people who contributed to /database-antipattern are web devs
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Loqi woot!
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rascul whether i'm right or not, i don't know
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bret heh
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tantek___ rascul - every contributor to IndieWebCamp.com is a web developer at least to the extent that they setup their own indeweb site with IndieAuth :)
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rascul yeah, i meant profesionally though ;)
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@grokfail RT @wfarr: I can’t even imagine the potency of the drugs they must’ve been consuming http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513081165125652482)
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@davidlesches RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513081167395192833)
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rascul must be pretty horrible to not use a database
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KartikPrabhu rascul: yeah. I have to use my file browser to find things... pretty much the hardest thing I've done
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bret anyone know where to find the persona loging button art?
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tommorris rascul: "Marry, and you will regret it; don’t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don’t marry, you will regret it either way. Laugh at the world’s foolishness, you will regret it; weep over it, you will regret that too; laugh at the world’s foolishness or weep over it, you will regret it either way; laugh at the world’s foolishness or weep
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tommorris over it, you will regret both. Believe a woman, you will regret it; believe her not, you will also regret it; believe a woman or believe her not, you will regret it either way; believing a woman or not believing her, you will regret it both ways. Hang yourself, you will regret it; do not hang yourself, and you will regret that too; hang yourself or don’t
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tommorris hang yourself, you’ll regret it either way; whether you hang yourself or do not hang yourself, you will regret both. This, gentlemen, is the essence of all philosophy." (Kierkegaard, or 'A' in Either/Or)
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tommorris Use a database and you will regret it. Do not use a database and you will regret it. Use a database or do not use a database, you will regret it.
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KartikPrabhu bret: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Persona/User_interface_guidelines ?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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rascul tommorris i regret nothing!
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bret KartikPrabhu: no link to CSS or images. just guidelines :/ https://github.com/juliaelman/persona-buttons looks interesting
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek___ Ah I found a thread where there were more of the attacks happening - no one involved with #indiewebcamp AFAIK: https://twitter.com/aral/status/513028930773987329
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@aral If you’re reading @shanley’s timeline right now, her tweets on indie tech are baseless and slanderous. Will be posting a long-form reply. (twitter.com/_/status/513028930773987329)
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rascul bret http://people.mozilla.org/~smartell/persona/ ?
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bret rascul++
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rascul no karmas :(
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tantek___ is it wrong of me to want to favorite this? I can't help but find it humorous: https://twitter.com/shanley/status/513034584888311809
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@shanley .@aral i made this for your upcoming blog post about me. https://twitter.com/shanley/status/513034584888311809/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/513034584888311809)
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Mark87 what is a filesystem if not a database
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "filesystem if not a database" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=filesystem+if+not+a+database
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Mark87 Loki lol
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rascul a filesystem IS a database
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bret with a different interface :)
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petermolnar of course it is, who argues with that? :)
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rascul ext4 is a hashed b-tree database with standard tools that everyone knows and loves :)
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KartikPrabhu what blasphemy is this!
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Mark87 methinks a b-tree a database does not make
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rascul namespaces = (sub)directories, keys = files, values = file contents
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KartikPrabhu databases are better obv
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Mark87 KartikPrabhu heretic!
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KartikPrabhu jk jk ... will drop the snarky sacrasm
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gavinc or databases are just really bad file systems? :D
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rascul gavinc++
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Mark87 you elitists and your databases. I dd ascii directly onto my hard drives
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Loqi gavinc has 1 karma
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Mark87 Mark87-- bad joke
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Loqi You can't karma yourself!
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gavinc Mark87-- not utf-8
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Loqi Mark87 has -1 karma
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rascul using a database that uses a filesystem to store its data is redundant at some level ;)
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@clegault Checking out the IndieWeb scene. http://withknown.com seems pretty nice. I may set up my own server and replace my blog. Time will tell. (twitter.com/_/status/513085375732920320)
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Mark87 lolz
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rascul best just use whatever model fits your needs best
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@slm4996 Holy crap, someone please tell me how the writer thought any of this made any sense. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513085560844730368)
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bret mob-antipattern
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gavinc and then one day you discover your running ZOPE on postgres on XFS using a vitualized disk image on ext4 and start crying that you can't copy an article to make an edit
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rascul hehe zope
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@BobKrijnen RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513086087783538688)
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Mark87 I wonder if I can write a Linux filesystem driver that uses an sqldb as its store. Then i'll install the database running the filesystem onto the filesystem
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Mark87 muahahaha
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bret Mark87 use FUSE
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rascul linux filesystems also maintain a memory cache so that frequently accessed stuff might come straight from memory instead of disk
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Mark87 Mark87-- another bad joke bret++
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Mark87 what is the meaning of life
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "the meaning of life" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=the+meaning+of+life
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rascul Mark87 http://mysqlfs.sourceforge.net/
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Mark87 rascul++
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Loqi rascul has 20 karma
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@DBWeekly The Database as an Anti-Pattern? http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513089672210550784)
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@rhcnet RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513090125635813376)
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hadleybeeman Every time I see that, I first read it as a threat ^^
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hadleybeeman it's strange phrasing
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KartikPrabhu hadleybeeman: you mean the tweet or the wiki page?
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@types4life RT @_jared: “Using databases for the primary storage of your content is a known antipattern.” well then. http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern Thanks @… (twitter.com/_/status/513095927582572544)
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kylewm for further improvements to /database-antipattern, maybe we could take inspiration from http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/
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bret kylewm: good idea
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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hadleybeeman KartikPrabhu: the "if you want to be a web developer…" tweet
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KartikPrabhu hadleybeeman: that whole twitter fight has a bunch of such tweets
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hadleybeeman I saw a few. But since that one keeps getting retweeted, I thought I'd comment.
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bret nah its a troll
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hadleybeeman #gamergate and sexism in tech has me thinking about power… the wording in that tweet could be interpreted as intimidating.
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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hadleybeeman (Bret: I don't disagree :) )
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kylewm I'm happy that that one has a very good response as the first reply https://twitter.com/mnot/status/512950082069479424
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@mnot @postwait the audience there is people who aren't very technical yet want to self host. Different to general advice for web debs. Cc @t (twitter.com/_/status/512950082069479424)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yes very nic ereply
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rascul web debs!
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bret i always read the db-antipatterns as "if your readme then says... now set up your DB... you are asking you users to put up with these issues"
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bret self hosted solutons need to be more like http://jlord.github.io/forkngo/ or https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/heroku-button
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rascul big db server for small app without big data requirements is what i don't like
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kylewm rascul: i'm finding sqlite is a really good fit for that use-case
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rascul i do like sqlite
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bret sqlite is pretty neat, I want to learn more about it
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bret redis was also surprisingly robust. its suppsoed to be memory only, but It seems to always back itself up on disk
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rascul i can't trust redis more than my memory can
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rascul if i have to deal with the disk stuff then i'd rather just use a system designed for it
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rascul not saying redis is without its uses though :)
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kylewm despite using it for my site, i don't *really* know what redis is for
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bret whats it for?
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rascul redis keeps stuff in memory so it's very fast, it's often used quite well for caching
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bret but it also saves it to disk?
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rascul yes
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kylewm rascul: why would one use it instead of memcached?
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rascul kylewm there's much debate on that actually
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bret heh
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kylewm here we go again
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kylewm what is memcached-antipattern?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "memcached-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=memcached-antipattern
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kylewm what is vim-antipattern?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "vim-antipattern" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=vim-antipattern
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rascul google for redis vs memcached if you're interested, the topic doesn't really interest me much to discuss heh
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kylewm rascul: yeah, good call. i was only interested if it was an obvious difference :)
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gavinc How about just the running processes other then webserver anti-pattern?
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bear redis has a lot more operations that can be done against it than memcached
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bear it is really designed to be a memory only database with a OMG backup to disk
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rascul the disk stuff seemed to be more of an afterthought to me
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bear it's there purely as a protect-oneself-from-foot-gun issues
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bear so you can survive restarts without losing everything
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rascul redis is super fast though :)
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bear yep
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@milesje OK, so I'm going to be testing out http://withknown.com which is an IndieWeb site. For those who don't know what .. http://jacobmiles.withknown.com/2014/ok-so-im-going-to-be-testing-out-wwwwithknowncom-which (twitter.com/_/status/513103217819791360)
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bear and it having set, queue, list, hash and pubsub builtin makes it a very flexible tool
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Loqi [mention] http://jacobmiles.withknown.com/2014/ok-so-im-going-to-be-testing-out-wwwwithknowncom-which linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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rascul https://github.com/antirez/redis/blob/unstable/redis.conf#L344
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rascul that always makes me chuckle :)
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bear our security team did that for RedisConf
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bear wrote a rainbow hash cracker in Lua, scanned the redisconf folks for open redis nodes and then uploaded it to them
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@schema RT @postwait: Wow. Words cannot express... if you want to be a web developer, stay away from here: http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (twitter.com/_/status/513104032815398912)
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rascul *never* let redis be exposed directly to the world imo
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bear yea
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@veganstraightedge @dret I disagree. HTML is the lingua franca of the web. Other media types come and go. HTML sticks around. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513104397161619456)
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rascul i see nothing deprecating html in the forseeable future
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bear I think i'll go see a movie tonight
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bear go escape people by being in a large anonymous crowd sharing an escapism
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@parzzix What is the best #android #email app for those who self host? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/513106006344097792)
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tantek catches up on today's log (again)
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tantek what is jquery?
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Loqi It looks like we don't have a page for "jquery" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=jquery
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tantek does anyone here use jQuery on their indieweb front end? if so as part of what project?
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tantek trying to come up with an excuse to collect http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/ onto /jQuery
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kylewm p3k and Known both use it
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tantek hadleybeeman: by "read it as a threat" - do you mean you read those tweets as a warning against databases themselves?
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petermolnar g' night, everyone
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KartikPrabhu tantek: i think hadleybeeman mean't as a threat to anyone who is "anti-database" to not be considered as a legit web dev
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tantek KartikPrabhu: then I'm seriously confused.
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hadleybeeman tantek: I saw one way to read the language was as a warning to new/potential web devs to stay away because it would anger the author of the tweet.
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KartikPrabhu yeah that ^
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tantek.com created /jQuery (+267) "stub" (view diff)
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hadleybeeman (in other words, you could add "if you know what's good for you!" at the end of the tweet)
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tantek hadleybeeman: wow! that's pretty messed up (not on your part, but the original language)
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hadleybeeman Right
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KartikPrabhu twitterwars--
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Loqi twitterwars has -1 karma
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tantek twitterfights--
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Loqi twitterfights has -1 karma
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tantek.com created /jquery (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /jq (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+4) "linky js" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Javascript (+24) "r" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/kevinmarks/512834887368183808/512837875126136832 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern (webmention)
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tantek.com edited /Persona (+61) "linky JS" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+4) "/* Indie Wiki */ link js" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/aaronpk/513012939377217538/513019012360699904 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?title=database-antipattern&action=historysubmit&diff=13413&oldid=13272 (webmention)
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tantek.com created /javascript (+24) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /CASSIS (+8) "linky linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /wget (+4) "linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /video (+4) "/* Brainstorming */ linky" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /PBWorks (+4) "/* Criticism */" (view diff)
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tantek more fuel for the fire - how about /single-page-site-antipattern ?
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@jmbroad I think this is expert-beginner-ese for "you don't need a database to generate HTML": http://indiewebcamp.com/database-antipattern But that's being generous. (twitter.com/_/status/513114704974471168)
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tantek it's true! you don't need a database to *publish* HTML.