#indiewebcamp 2014-08-15

2014-08-15 UTC
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: regarding the problem of finding parent element for fragmentions, would it be easier to insert <span fragmention></span> around the exact phrase?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: I tend to filter out any "sin" framing, can you give a tldr?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: have marked it as to read for tonight. it is too long for right now :P
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KartikPrabhu
the basic premise seems to be that the original sin = advertising-based free (as in beer) business models
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KartikPrabhu
again too long for it to be just that point so hoping the writer gives solutions on pg 3 or something ;)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: Nah, before that there were people hating on those who actually built things.
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tantek
And frankly, ad based media predates web
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tantek
*free media
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: true. will give a speed read and surmise here for public benefit :)
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tantek
Eg tv, radio
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tantek
And if you keep peeling back the layers, is advertising the problem? Or is buying crap you don't need?
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tantek
Or is it an (over)consumption based economy?
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tantek
Such long rants rarely provide solutions.
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KartikPrabhu
possibly. giving benefit of doubt here
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tantek
Does the author have their own website?
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tantek
Trying to pull it back on topic ;)
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jenmontes.com
created /arkOS (+992) "Intro to arkOS"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: not one that is linked from the article.
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tantek
thanks cuibonobo !
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KartikPrabhu
"Ethan Zuckerman is director of the Center for Civic Media at MIT and principal research scientist at MIT’s Media Lab." so maybe he could be invited to IWC Cambridge or is it IWC MIT now?
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tantek
Oh it's Ethan! He has it had his own site at some point.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: Definitely post/tweet at him inviting him to IWC Cambridge
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tantek
He can easily setup his site to signin
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: might be better if someone who is going to IWC Cambridge does the inviting?
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snarfed
KevinMarks: noticed that you now show webmentions on recent kevinmarks.com posts via webmention.herokuapp.com (nice!)
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tantek
Also, should we update the Cambridge etc IWC to use same wording as IWC UK?
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snarfed
KevinMarks: just fyi though, you don't actually advertise the herokuapp wm endpoint on those pages, only on your home page, so you won't get any wms on the post pages
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gRegor`
tantek: re "I have a website" or "I want a website"? Probably a good idea.
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Loqi
gives gRegor` a website"
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KevinMarks_
this is why I need a template system soon - doing it by hand is getting painful
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gRegor`
pats Loqi on the head
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snarfed
KevinMarks_: np! (also, re your q this morning about RTs and faves showing up as wms, your twitter account isn't actually signed up for bridgy :P)
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tantek
KevinMarks: See /template :)
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tantek
gRegor`: Yes in terms of want have
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tantek
That change seems to have elicited a 100% positive repsonse
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tantek
Which is rare for any change
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aaronpk
tantek: a URL that is a collection of posts... would you say that is an h-entry with a bunch of child h-cites?
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tantek
Aaronpk I guess I'd have to look at the real world examples first ;)
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aaronpk
you're about to have one!
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tantek
But yes that makes the most sense
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: you know what's funny about that summary? that's probably the outline the writer started with :)
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tantek
Aaronpk I mean you could have an h-entry with complete h-entry children too
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aaronpk
tantek: they are previously existing entries, and may also not be mine
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tantek
And the children could each link with u-url u-uid to their permalinks
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: ha!
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tantek
Aaronpk yes h-cite is fine too, and especially if you're abbreviating or summarizing
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KartikPrabhu
is h-feed not good/correct for collections?
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: not in this case I think
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aaronpk
once I publish it, it won't change
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: Are you being funny?
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tantek
A collection is a discrete set
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: I have been known to be quite humourless
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aaronpk
also there may be original content in the collection
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tantek
A feed is not discrete
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KartikPrabhu
feed has discrete post entries no?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: Just because x is a container of h-entry elements doesn't mean it works for all y containers of h-entry elements.
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KartikPrabhu
yes. I was just asking to understand diff.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: No. A feed changes over time.
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tantek
Hence a *feed*
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KartikPrabhu
that makes sense
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tantek
The word does have some meaning
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tantek
That's why thought it was funny
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KartikPrabhu
so aaronpk does not mean to update a collection once posted with more entries?
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aaronpk
correct
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aaronpk
although... we will se
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KartikPrabhu
aah ok that makes more sense now :)
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cuibonobo
"rough consensus and running code". words to live by tommorris! :D
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tantek
Kartikprabhu Seemed like you were (deliberately?) completely ignoring any meaning of "feed"
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aaronpk
likely I will be updating it during an event, then it will become static
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KartikPrabhu
yes I was to get at an objection to it which you did give me :)
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: sort of like what I was thinking with my "series". A bunch of posts related to one topic. like chapters of a book. but then it would be all fixed
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KartikPrabhu
no constant updates like a feed
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: Feed means more than just "changing". In practice it also means things *leave*
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tantek
As does "stream"
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aaronpk
WHAT MAGIC
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: "leave" as in deleted posts?
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aaronpk
it's always somewhat disconcerting when your software does unexpected things
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KevinMarks_
fall off the bottom?
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aaronpk
especially when they are positive things
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tantek
No as in you don't show all posts for all time on your home page
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KartikPrabhu
aah ok. so unlike RSS/Atom files which contain all posts for all time
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KevinMarks_
well, on my blog I turned up the # of posts a while ago so now it tends to show a few years
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tantek
Huh? No they don't do that either
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KevinMarks_
the default for RSS was 15
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: what? really... hmm
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: What lol. Posts fall off the end of feeds.
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tantek
What RSS/atom are you thinking of?
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KartikPrabhu
hmm let me find an example maybe from Wordpress blogs
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tantek
I wonder about "feed" vs "stream" though
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KevinMarks_
so, will brid.gy send a webmention to me for last night?
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tantek
Stream or "updates" sounds more user friendly than "feed".
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snarfed
KevinMarks_: yup it backfills a bit
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tantek
"Feed" sounds mechanical.
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tantek
Any other opinions on feed vs stream?
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KevinMarks_
"In RSS 0.91, various elements are restricted to 500 or 100 characters. There can be no more than 15 <item>s in a 0.91 <channel>." http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/rss/rss.html
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KevinMarks_
I like stream as in Activity Stream
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: KevinMarks_ looks like I was grossly mistaken and never bothered to count items in a feed. Though my Atom feed has all articles ever which should change :P
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tantek
I wonder when we should cluster all our implemented post types into a small noun only alternative to Activity Streams.
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tantek
Post Streams
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snarfed
KevinMarks++ nice find
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 46 karma
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KartikPrabhu
learnt something useful by asking dumb question :P
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KevinMarks_
well, there isn't a restriction on length, but downloading all of it is often a pain
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KevinMarks_
Inactivity Streams
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tantek
KevinMarks: Downloading a dry violation is usually a pain ;)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: KevinMarks_ I like "streams" too I think Pastry Box uses that word https://the-pastry-box-project.net/stream
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KevinMarks_
"sushi boat web"
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tantek.com
created /≋ (+20) "r"
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KevinMarks_
Passivity Streams
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tantek
KevinMarks: Why define as a negative?
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tantek
We already know that antipattern
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aaronpk
Calm Streams?
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tantek
We call them all posts.
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KevinMarks_
intersting, this means "river" â¼®
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tantek
So what's wrong with the obvious concatenation
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tantek
Post streams
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aaronpk
I like Post Streams
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KevinMarks_
Post is the default activity in AS
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kylewm
are you guys trying to come up with a better synonym for 'feed' or defining a new term?
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tantek
KevinMarks: Re "flow" I think that's already used better as state of flow like defined here http://cyborganthropology.com/Flow thanks aaronpk for the link
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KevinMarks_
right, I was menaing to imply that in the flow past post too
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tantek
KevinMarks: Post is the only verb you need that's my point
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tantek
kylewm: More like pick from existing terms
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kylewm
tantek: sorry, s/define a new term/describe a different phenomenon
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tantek
kylewm: Yes we are describing a more minimal subset of AS
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tantek
We are simplifying AS as we did pingback
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tantek
Removing that which is inessential in practice.
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tantek
We've already been shipping it for a while with all these different post types.
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kylewm
maybe the micro- or h- prefix?
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tantek
Running code and rough consensus as it were
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tantek
So it's about time we named it
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tantek
kylewm: Not sure what the micro or h prefix has to do with it
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tantek
And I'd rather avoid using plumbing for naming
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kylewm
I knew you'd say that
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tantek
"Post" is the user understandable term. As in blog post.
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KevinMarks_
though "blog" is coming to mean a blogpost too
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tantek
It's an existing unassuming humble term.
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kylewm
h-streams does make some sense being that it's { "h-event", "h-entry", "h-feed", etc. }
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tantek
KevinMarks: Nah that died with MySpace
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aaronpk
kylewm: no cause that would imply there's some new markup
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tantek
kylewm: those are just one set of plumbing for what are noun-centric streams
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kylewm
so we should stop calling it "h-card" and just call it a "card" (like with the other prefixes)
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tantek
kylewm: Or profile or contact info
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tantek
kylewm: Card is already super overloaded and ambiguous
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kylewm
realizes this conversation is over his semantically head
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tantek
I tried documenting /card
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kylewm
s/over his semantically/semantically over his
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Loqi
kylewm meant to say: realizes this conversation is semantically over his head
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KevinMarks_
I see 50/50 "i wrote a blog" vs "I wrote a blog post"
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KevinMarks_
blog stream?
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tantek
KevinMarks: Sounds redundant
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tantek
Blog is the collection
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aaronpk
what's wrong with Post Stream?
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tantek
Unless you're streaming a collection of whole blogs
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KevinMarks_
should be; it's coming to mean a longer post - a blogworthy one rather than just a tweet
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kylewm
does that matter ^
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tantek
kylewm: You tell me, does app.net matter?
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kylewm
that might not matter ^
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kylewm
tantek: no
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KevinMarks_
hm, FB has a "Post" button where twitter has a "tweet" one
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tantek
"Me, I regret the day I started calling what I do here “blogging.” When I launched this website in 1995, I thought of what I was doing as “writing and publishing,” which is the case.
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tantek
KevinMarks: Right, post is the generic term
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tantek
Tweet is the silo specific term that twitter failed trademarking
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KevinMarks_
"What has happened since is that the practices of blogging have become reified into mainstream usage. Through social networks and Twitter and Reader shared items and Flickr and HuffDuffer and all the other nicely-focused gesture spreading tools we have, the practice of blogging, of mediating the world for each other, has become part of the fabric of the net."
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tantek
KevinMarks: Not sure I understand what you mean by that quote re Post Streams or any alternative phrase / name
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aaronpk
just updated php-mf2-twitter-shim to parse photos!
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aaronpk
so close to having collections done
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aaronpk
I don't know what they should look like in the list view
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KevinMarks_
aaronpk: how are collections different from a tagged set?
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aaronpk
what is a tagged set?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "tagged set" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=tagged+set
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aaronpk
hm I wonder if I can ship this without the list view
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KevinMarks_
what are tags?
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Loqi
tags or tagging refers to categorizing or labeling content according to free form words or phrases, including particular instances such as labeling the people in a photo, specifically known as people-tagging http://indiewebcamp.com/tags
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aaronpk
as long as I don't tag any of my colections they won't show up in lists
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aaronpk
KevinMarks_: I suppose I could get a similar effect by tagging a bunch of posts with a unique tag like the timestamp
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KevinMarks_
or a meaningful tag for that subset
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aaronpk
the thing I get by creating a "collection" post type is that I can add additional content
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KartikPrabhu
doesn't medium have collections
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kylewm
huh, permalink as alternate title
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: Medium has horirble URL practices
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KartikPrabhu
that post has a slug, a title and a subtitle... jeez
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KartikPrabhu
not to mention the slug should be "what the hell were we thinking"
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aaronpk
gotta run
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: some CSS mishap with the "and of course, the route:" bit showing under the side bar
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KartikPrabhu
like the photo display very neat
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kylewm
really cool aaronpk, interesting that it has additional content (and of course the route)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret
where is the url for that change?
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tantek.com
edited /collection (+382) "add aaronpk example, subheads"
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tantek.com
created /nick (+182) "stub"
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tantek.com
edited /album (+17) "mostly just another name"
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tantek
bret - I think that's a MediaWiki limitation, I've never seen permalinks for moves or deletes on mediawiki installs
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: can Loqi just linkfy the new URL?
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tantek
makes sense
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: the old and new URLs are already linkified
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: interesting then that my IRC client doesn't get them, maybe because they are relative URLs
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: right, the lining of / phrases is purely a log thing
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tantek
s/lining/linking
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: KartikPrabhu: right, the linking of / phrases is purely a log thing
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tantek.com
edited /2013/UK/Indiemark (+27) "not a stub, link to context of IWCUK 2013"
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tantek.com
edited /2013/UK/Indiemark (-12) "review compared to etherpad, minimal cleanup"
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com (+155) "/* working on */ finish updating projects page, incorporating 2013/UK/Indiemark session into IndieMark"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/reposts (+123) "add subheads for referencing, line breaks"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+93) "/* implement reposts of tweets */ direct link to whiteboard sketches of presentation"
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tantek
goodness, team screening?!?
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techlifeweb
Finally getting around to testing brid.gy for posting and Twitter is giving me { "error": "Error: HTTP Error 401: Unauthorized" }
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techlifeweb
or rather bridgy is saying that when I try to post
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GWG
Hello, techlifeweb
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techlifeweb
hello GWG
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GWG
How goes it?
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techlifeweb
Pretty good.
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techlifeweb
How about you?
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kylewm
techlifeweb: I think you may've found a bug with new bridgy/twitter permissions granularity (see https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/258)
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GWG
It's been a tough summer
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techlifeweb
kylewm: thanks for the link. Guess I'll wait till they have it sorted.
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kylewm
techlifeweb: I'm looking at the logs and stuff now
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kylewm
will let you know if i find anything :)
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techlifeweb.com
created /User:Techlifeweb.com (+166) "Created page with "[http://techlifeweb.com Scott Kingery] is a systems analyst in San Diego, CA. Currently running WordPress. Testing plugins and writing documentation about my install.""
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GWG
Okay....
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tantek
hey good start techlifeweb
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kylewm
techlifeweb: can you disable publish and re-authorize? on https://www.brid.gy/twitter/techlifeweb
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tantek
techlifeweb: now add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people!
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techlifeweb
tantek: as we speak :) Need to get my picture in the right spot
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techlifeweb.com
edited /IRC_People (+104) "/* Nicknames */"
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techlifeweb
kylewm: ok, doing that next
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techlifeweb
kylewm: same results. Even tried revoking access through twitter
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kylewm
sorry techlifeweb :/ I'll file a bug
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techlifeweb
kylewm: no problem. Happy to help test.
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kylewm
techlifeweb: just to be thorough you had to authorize both Listen and Publish separately right?
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techlifeweb
no. its really weird...
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techlifeweb
when I click the disable button by publish, I'm sent to an Authorize screen with buttons to Authorize or Cancel
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techlifeweb
sorry...sign in or cancel
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kylewm
but clicking Sign in doesn't go anywhere
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techlifeweb
Sign In doesnt do anything
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kylewm
yep, I was seeing the same thing...
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kylewm
and then it mysteriously started working :(
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techlifeweb
cancel takes me to a screen to select back to bridgy
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techlifeweb
I never get the option to enable posting
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techlifeweb
it just looks like it is going to be able to post but the posts then throw the error I mentioned before
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kylewm
my working theory is this is it's in a weird state where Bridgy thinks it has write permission but it doesn't, and so disabling it doesn't work somehow
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kylewm
will have to defer to snarfed on the details though
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kylewm
thanks for your help testing!!
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KevinMarks
So is aaronpk's collection a storify type thing?
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techlifeweb
no problem. if you or snarfed want me to test, ping me
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tantek
KevinMarks: do you have a good example of a storify collection? URL?
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KevinMarks
This is an example with narrative between the collected tweets https://storify.com/charlesarthur/oh-hai-sexism
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tantek.com
edited /schedule (+3) "update to UK"
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tantek.com
created /2014/UK/Schedule (+2262) "stub copying from /2014/SF/Schedule"
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tantek.com
edited /block (+71) "/* Twitter */ cite article about Twitter's false step with block that was more like a bad mute"
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tantek.com
edited /comments-presentation (+65) "/* Discussion */ add pastrybox article about comments"
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tantek.com
edited /User:Tantek.com (+198) "add links to pdf4 hackpad"
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tantek.com
edited /MediaWiki:Sidebar (-23) "use a logical "next" like for HWC"
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tantek.com
created /next-iwc (+21) "r"
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tantek.com
edited /collection (+226) "silo examples, storify"
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tantek.com
edited /Guest_List (+3) "update to UK"
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks: what horrifying story did you link me to on storify!
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tantek.com
edited /Events (+3932) "move 08-13 HWC to recent, add 09-10 09-24 10-08 10-22 HWC to list"
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KevinMarks
One of the reasons shanley founded model view culture
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KartikPrabhu
apart from being sexist that was one of most blatantly idiotic things i have seen
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KartikPrabhu
the other-side response that is
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tommorris
Mike Monteiro is awesome. His talk, "Fuck you, pay me" is a daily inspiration to me as a contractor. Just saying.
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KevinMarks
There is a lot of stupid about
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@GlueData
#OwnYourData presentation at a customer. The executive business case - unlocking working capital from your data! #sapmdm #data #datagov
(twitter.com/_/status/500200884354424832)
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tantek.com
edited /Template:Homebrew_Website_Club (+216) "09-10, 09-24, 10-08, 10-22"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+447) "signing up for IndieWebCamp Cambridge"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */ update counts"
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tantek.com
edited /2014/Cambridge/Guest_List (+55) "p-name summary, linky heading"
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tantek
"Waiting for fonts.googleapis.com…"
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tantek
and that's another Google service I won't be using to slow down my site
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tantek
took over 10 seconds
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tommorris
aaronpk: do you know if there is a way to add an Atom feed to Loqi? if so, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=IndieWeb&feed=atom&action=history might be useful.
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tommorris
drops a picture into the IndieWeb WP article.
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barnabywalters
you would be able to run them through http://waterpigs.co.uk/services/microformats-to-atom/ but they seem to insist on being in text format rather than HTML when requested by cURL
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cweiske
accept header?
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barnabywalters
cweiske: I tried adding .html, haven’t tried an accept header yet
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barnabywalters
ottomh I can’t remember what cURL sends by default
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barnabywalters
liberal — okay, I’ll add better accept headers them
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tommorris
added a photo and Commons link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWeb
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barnabywalters
er, are we a set of software utilities?
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tantek
no we're a community
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tommorris
I'm tempted to redirect IndieWeb to IndieWebCamp
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barnabywalters
one page lists tantek, crystal, amber and aaronpk, the other one lists tantek, amber, aaronpk and KevinMarks
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tantek
the IndieWeb article is odd
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tantek
and more inaccurate
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barnabywalters
+1 for redirecting IndieWeb to IndieWebCamp
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barnabywalters
merging anything useful into /IndieWebCamp
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tantek
tommorris - ah looks like benwerd used the term unconference unintentionally
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tantek
we explicitly started it as a BarCamp
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tantek
so I'm going to edit that
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tommorris
tantek: be sure to put a COI declaration on your user page. there's one on mine saying I'm involved in IWC
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tantek
tommorris: not enough that I'm mentioned in the article? ;)
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tommorris
en.wp tends to be a bit bonkers about COI declarations
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barnabywalters
tommorris: what’s your user page? pretty sure you’re neither of these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Morris
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jonnybarnes
whats a COI decleration?
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tommorris
jonnybarnes: conflict of interest
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tommorris
barnabywalters: I'm thankfully not wiki-notable.
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barnabywalters
ah, I missed out the underscore
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barnabywalters
wow, that is… thorough
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tantek
ah - the self-description already say 2-day creator camp
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tantek
that's where I think we used to call it a BarCamp/DevCamp
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tantek
checks archive.or
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tantek
s/or/org
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: checks archive.org
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tantek
plus the naming
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jonnybarnes
ok tantek
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tantek
no that doesn't make any sense
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tantek
and it's not based on any real world use-case that I know of
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tantek
since clearly in a case like that markup, the h-card could be inside the h-entry
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jonnybarnes
so its ok that my algo currently fails to find any authorship info for that HTML
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tantek
I'd say so yes
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tantek
when it fails on a real world example, then we can document that
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jonnybarnes
it fails exactly as you said btw, doesnt find any author info inside the h-entry, finds the rel-author link but doesnt find any h-card in no_h-card.html and exits
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tantek.com
edited /Posts_about_the_IndieWeb (+146) "IndieWeb ho! A brief intro to a little movement with big ideas"
(view diff)
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: because you're last "checkin" was to a place, the map part of last seen in your homepage saidebar is blank
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yeah, it’s a little broken. My checkins are not very polished
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: you're sites failed me! I thought it was going to have some h-feed markup
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jonnybarnes
does anone know a site that uses h-feed?
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barnabywalters
and on all my other feed pages
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jonnybarnes
oh yeah, you've put it on the <html>
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barnabywalters
yep, I tend to put one root microformats2 classname on the <html> element
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: does php-mf2 not expose that there was a h-feed: https://gist.github.com/jonnybarnes/4ddf5606867db75fb0f0
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: that is very strange
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barnabywalters
what version of php-mf2 do you have?
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jonnybarnes
can you reproduce?
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yep, I can, looking into it now
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jonnybarnes
so its not the php-mf2 completely ignores all h-feeds
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barnabywalters
this requires further debugging, I’ll look into it properly after work
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barnabywalters
thanks for finding it! can you raise this as an issue (with your gist links) on https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2?
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jonnybarnes
issue #55
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: just checking, should the output for h-feeds be as in the second gist? as in the all the arrays with type=h-entry will be children of the array with type=h-feed?
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yep, that’s correct
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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_sgreger
adactio: my site sent a webmention to one of your notes earlier today, but it didn't show up as a comment. are notes limited to brid.gy webmentions only? (bug/feature? or maybe a problem with my webmention implementation...)
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@oxfordgeeks
@benwerd No date as yet for December - are you offering an indieweb talk or mircoslot?! Thanks
(twitter.com/_/status/500263328275775488)
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tommorris
_sgreger: have you got a link to the post?
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_sgreger
tommorris: moving to my original nick without the leading underscore, just restored my password...
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sgreger
tommorris: this is the post http://sebastiangreger.net/2014/08/minimum-actionable-dataset-data-obesity/ - sending out webmentions through the wordpress plugin by pfefferle
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sgreger
in theory at least (it has worked well so far)
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tommorris
sgreger: there's some parsing errors in the HTML
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tommorris
sgreger: on line 114, there's class="post hentry h-entry"itemscope="itemscope"
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tommorris
no space between the attributes
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tommorris
that might be tripping the parser up
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tommorris
Firefox may be parsing it fine, but I'm not sure php-mf2 is
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tommorris
Hmm, no, the online PHP parser seems to handle that fine
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tommorris
should pinch broken HTML as regression tests for Python and Scala microformats parsers.
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tommorris
Don't know why that's failing
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sgreger
uh, that could well explain the issue. fixed the markup, now i need to see how to trigger the webmentions again ;)
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tommorris
you can just paste webmentions into Jeremy's site
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tommorris
oh, here's a simple thing - adactio only takes comments up to a certain number of days
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tommorris
so it might be going through okay but the comments are just turned off
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adactio
tommorris: No, I've stopped doing that since implementing webmention—you can comment on any post at any time (but I only show the form for entering a URL on journal entries, not notes).
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tommorris
ah, sgreger, adactio is here. I can go back to fiddling with gigantic databases like I'm supposed to be.
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sgreger
well, now it worked. it was my markup bug indeed. i had a hunch, but was also wondering whether there might be a difference in implementation on the receiving site since the URL form is not shownd
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sgreger
tommorris: thank you for pointing out the error
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tommorris
adactio: just out of interest, are you using php-mf2 or something else to parse HTML for webmentions?
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sgreger
adaction: thanks for the clarification - the hiccup was indeed on my end
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adactio
sgreger: yup, it's showing up now: http://adactio.com/notes/7288/
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tommorris
(It'd be useful for me and for barnabywalters and probably for glennjones to know who is using which parsers on theri site.)
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cweiske
you could all use application/xhtml+xml as mime type for your html pages
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cweiske
then your browser would refuse to render the pages if they contain errors
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cweiske
effective way to get rid of errors :)
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tommorris
...or surfacing them.
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cweiske
which in turn makes you fix them
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cweiske
because people can't view the page anymore
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cweiske
I do that at cweiske.de/tagebuch/
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cweiske
but only for clients that have that type in their accept headers
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sgreger
cweiske: i'll look into that. i wonder how application/xhtml+xml and html5 get along (apparently at least a XML prolog is needed before the DOCTYPE, and namespace declaration in the html tag)
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cweiske
I don't use HTML5 on my site, so I did not check
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tommorris
the HTML5 spec includes a way to write it as XML
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@mathewi
@zseward @davewiner @mims: This is also what @dangillmor has been talking about with the #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/500276435953922048)
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cweiske
if you're interested: http://p.cweiske.de/138
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cweiske
my rewrite rule for the content type header for supporting clients
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sgreger
thanks, i'll see if i can get that to work with my wordpress setup
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tommorris
sees that the Camino browser is no more.
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tommorris
Gecko + native OS X GUI was win back in the day.
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tommorris
also, Dave Winer has thoughts on what a blog does: http://scripting.com/2014/08/15/whatDoesABlogDoIn2014.html
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cweiske
sgreger, note that disqus breaks with application/xhtml+xml
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cweiske
and no, they do not want to fix that
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sebastiangreger.net
edited /IRC_People (+59) "/* Nicknames */ added myself"
(view diff)
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sebastiangreger.net
edited /User:Sebastiangreger.net (+57) "/* Sebastian Greger */ hcard added"
(view diff)
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sgreger
cweiske: no problem, i anyways prefer to store/syndicate comments on my site ...in true indieweb fashion ;)
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ben_thatmustbeme
good morning #indiewebcamp
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GWG
pfefferle: By the way, is there any news on my Pull Request?
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pfefferle
oh SH%$&§t… thanks for the reminder… will have a look at it, this weekend
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GWG
No rush. Just curious
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ben_thatmustbeme
so who is doing private postings at the moment?
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tommorris
Me. On Facebook. ;-)
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aaronpk
I am. I think barnabywalters too?
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aaronpk
so sorry about that page
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aaronpk
let me see if I can fix it quickly
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ben_thatmustbeme
so I was thinking about the whole, auth directly between servers
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aaronpk
yeah that's definitely needed
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ben_thatmustbeme
seems somewhat messy to have to do a pull of the page twice, once without the key and once with
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ben_thatmustbeme
if you pulled with the key first, you wouldn't know if its a private message or not
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ben_thatmustbeme
I was trying to think of other ways to do that
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aaronpk
interesting point
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, and as for server to server, couldn't we in theory automate validation with the new GPG key auth method
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aaronpk
I'd rather not tie this to GPG
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ben_thatmustbeme
true, but its the only way i see to do the initial negotiation without human interaction
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ben_thatmustbeme
anyway, i'm talking about two things at once and starting to confuse myself
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ben_thatmustbeme
so forget the server to server, the webmention bit
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aaronpk
you could outline the two issues on a new section on that page
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed, i was planning to, just wanted to get some reactions here too
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aaronpk
huh actually that page isn't as out of date as I thought
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ben_thatmustbeme
was thinking the private message webmention could say in the mention that it is private
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aaronpk
like a new parameter that says "btw fetching this source is going to require authentication"
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aaronpk
I wonder what other protocols have done that's similar?
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aaronpk
that seems reasonable tho
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aaronpk
I'm suuuuuuper hesitant to add anything to webmention, so I would want to exhaust all other possibilities first
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ben_thatmustbeme
the other option i was thinking is a markup in the html that would inform the page that its private
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ben_thatmustbeme
sure you still do a double pull on the initial request but after that you can just always include a key (if we work out how to negotiate one)
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: have you seen one of my private messages yet?
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aaronpk
k one sec
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, the first post itself can include a private key
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ben_thatmustbeme
just a random string
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aaronpk
so you see the message?
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ben_thatmustbeme
then you have some initial key negotiated. need to figure out how to make that transparent
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aaronpk
note that I put a little header "To: ben.thatmustbe.me"
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aaronpk
and if you look at the markup it's a property called "recipient"
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ben_thatmustbeme
u-recipient, i like that
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aaronpk
for the sake of everyone else, here's the parsed JSON of the message https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/67e7391908020c1588db
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ben_thatmustbeme
one could assume that any webmention to a private post is also private
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ben_thatmustbeme
thus removing the issue of having to pull twice
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ben_thatmustbeme
I'm trying to find a way to get it to the point that I don't even care about the webmention part of it at all, I want to have one stream of messages between us, that I could parse out in to what appears to be an instant messenger
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ben_thatmustbeme
multiple pulls is going to slow down the turn around time for receiving messages
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ben_thatmustbeme
plus we really cannot have to log in to every person's site
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aaronpk
don't think of it as "log in"
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aaronpk
in order for you to get see that post, you need to include an access token that my server issued to you
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aaronpk
one way is you can use the web UI
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ben_thatmustbeme
indeed. its just that i need to get that token to my server
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aaronpk
your server needs to be able to get it in the first place
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aaronpk
you've pointed your site at an authorization endpoint right?
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i use indieauth
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aaronpk
k so imagine for a moment that you were using your own auth server
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ben_thatmustbeme
sorry, that could be misconstrued
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i saw that case, but i don't think its realistic to all run our own auth server
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aaronpk
no, but just for the sake of argument
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ben_thatmustbeme
hey ShaneHudson
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aaronpk
i'm gonna walk through this step by step mostly for myself. the first thing that happens in my "sign in" form is you have to enter your domain name. then I generate a login URL that is based on your auth server
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aaronpk
then your auth server challenges you to prove who you are, at which point it generates an authorization code that it sends back to my server
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ben_thatmustbeme
wait, i thought you send me to your auth server, not mine
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aaronpk
ack this is confusing in this direction
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aaronpk
I need to pretend I'm signing in to your site
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, this is confusing
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aaronpk
ok so I'm looking at your sign in box
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aaronpk
I say "hey i'm aaronparecki.com"
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ben_thatmustbeme
Site A and Site B (Aaron and Ben not Alice and Bob :P)
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aaronpk
then click "sign in"
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aaronpk
at that point your site says "oh yeah? prove it"
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aaronpk
and redirects me to my auth endpoint with a bunch of application state in the query string
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ben_thatmustbeme
i think thats the other way around
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aaronpk
this is really confusing because of the two roles indieauth.com plays
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ben_thatmustbeme
i direct you to MY auth server, not yours
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aaronpk
nope, you have to direct me to my auth server
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ben_thatmustbeme
the form posts to my choice of auth server
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aaronpk
that's just your auth implementation
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ben_thatmustbeme
i don't curl your site and redirect there
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aaronpk
you do (or in this case indieauth.com does for you)
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ben_thatmustbeme
but i don't trust your auth server
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aaronpk
you don't have to
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aaronpk
try signing in to ownyourgram.com, that's an implementation of this
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ben_thatmustbeme
ah okay, so this is different from the webUI login method
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aaronpk
it's all the same
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aaronpk
but it's confusing because you can use indieauth.com/developers but also you can use indieauth.com as your authorization_endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, so you are right, i'm confusing the two, we are looking at only the auth_endpoint bit
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aaronpk
exactly
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aaronpk
which is why I was saying for the sake of argument let's say you built your own authorization endpoint
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, A is visiting B, B runs his own auth endpoint
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aaronpk
ok take a step back for a sec
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aaronpk
let's say you implemented private posts like I did, and that there is a URL like ben.thatmustbe.me/secret/100
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aaronpk
and let's say it's a message intended for me
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aaronpk
what I need is for you to issue me an access token that I will then include in the request for that page
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aaronpk
the important bit is that you're issuing the access token from your token endpoint
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aaronpk
so if we work backwards...
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aaronpk
I'll make a request to your token endpoint for a token, which needs to look something like this http://indiewebcamp.com/token-endpoint#Access_Token_Request
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aaronpk
the request will include "code" and "me" parameters
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aaronpk
your token endpoint will try to verify the authorization code against *my* authorization endpoint which you can find from my home page
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aaronpk
assuming it is valid, you can issue an access token
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ben_thatmustbeme
oh, interesting
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aaronpk
so really my server just needs to be able to generate an authorization code at my own authorization endpoint
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aaronpk
then this will work magically
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ben_thatmustbeme
yes, because I can just always use that code to access your site as me
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aaronpk
you mean access token right?
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aaronpk
the authorization codes are one-time use
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ben_thatmustbeme
oy, this takes me back a few months to when I first worked all this code out
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aaronpk
yeah me too
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ben_thatmustbeme
its a good refresher
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aaronpk
ok so you could probably do this right now on my site
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aaronpk
actually not sure about that, I may not have the right pieces in place
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aaronpk
i use tokens.indieauth.com as my token endpoint, which should actually issue an access token for you
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, you generate a code, send it to me, i pass the code to my token endpoint with your URL, the token endpoint goes to your site, validates the code, then issues a token that is returned to you
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aaronpk
yes I think that's correct
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ben_thatmustbeme
to be clearer, that token is given to me, that i then return to you
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aaronpk
except I think my server would be the one that talks to your token endpoint directly
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aaronpk
i'm getting "bad request" from your token endpoint tryign this
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, let me look in to that real quick
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ben_thatmustbeme
i require code, me, redirect_uri, client_id and state all be set
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, starting some logging
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kylewm
does it make sense that bridgy says "likes this" for facebook and "favorited this" (past tense) for twitter?
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kylewm
^ snarfed
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gRegor`
"favorites this" seems clunky
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kylewm
also, any styling suggestions for better distinguishing likes from comments? https://kylewm.com/note/2014/08/09/1#mentions
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jonnybarnes
how often is Sandeep around?
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gRegor`
Hovering over the star number on Twitter pops up "Favorited x times"
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ben_thatmustbeme
okay, give it a shot now aaronpk
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kylewm
gRegor`: snarfed: interesting, so the answer is yes, those are the correct tenses for each silo
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gRegor`
I've not gotten there myself, kylewm, but on notes I was thinking of giving commenters a slightly larger avatar and like/repost only interactions would get a smaller avatar and all on one line.
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gRegor`
Similar to tumblr
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barnabywalters
kylewm: I have a little icon next to each response
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barnabywalters
star for likes
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kylewm
ah, both good ideas, thanks
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gRegor`
Star for FB likes and Twitter favorites?
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kylewm
barnabywalters: i already have you open in another tab :)
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jonnybarnes
if I have a tests folder with vaious .php files, is there a way of telling phpunit to only run the tests in one of the php files?
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, looking at my code, I always use my auth endpoint for the token endpoint, i'm not pulling the site from the me=
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jonnybarnes
or even a single test in one of the php files?
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gRegor`
jonnybarnes: Yeah, but I don't know it well off the top of my head. barnabywalters probably knows how
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gRegor`
Believe it's something like passing the namespace/classname/filename of tests to run
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yep, just pass the path to the file
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barnabywalters
or if you want to filter by test, --filter testName
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jonnybarnes
as in run `./vendor/bin/phpunit --filter testIWantToRun`
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barnabywalters
gRegor`: on which topic, I still haven’t given your PR the attention it deserves — sorry! I’ll make sure to get on that this weekend
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gRegor`
No worries.
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: yep, or you can pass in partial patterns
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kylewm.com
edited /User:Kylewm.com (+366) "/* personal site */ add better control over what is excerpted for reposts"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: still got bad request
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: are you using this? https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php
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jonnybarnes
So heres a simple (read naive) implementation of the authorship algorithm
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: if so, you can use this function to find my auth endpoint https://github.com/indieweb/indieauth-client-php#authorization-endpoint
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jonnybarnes
barnabywalters: have you had chance to look at that bug?
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barnabywalters
jonnybarnes: nope, been doing “work” work
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jonnybarnes
you work somehere that lets you sit on a non-work IRC channel all day?
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jonnybarnes
awesomes!
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, I have some fix up to do on that side. my question is this, if I trust your auth endpoint instead of my own, what stops you from doing the same and giving yourself a token with a post scope?
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aaronpk
nothing. but it's up to your micropub endpoint to decide what users you allow to post
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aaronpk
actually before you even get there your token endpoint can decide whether to issue a token that has the "post" scope
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aaronpk
I believe my token endpoint, tokens.indieauth.com, will issue tokens all day long with whatever is requested of it. but my micropub endpoint only allows tokens for aaronparecki.com to create posts.
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ben_thatmustbeme
which makes sense
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ShaneHudson
I need to get micropub working soon, will help automate things
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ben_thatmustbeme
looks like i'll be using another of your libraries aaronpk :P
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jonnybarnes
my micropub works quite nicely, all my notes are now done through jonnybarnes.uk/notes/new
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk you should probably note that the indieauth-client-php depends on link-rel-parser-php
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aaronpk
if you use composer it Just Works™
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aaronpk
oh man big differences in imagemagick 2 vs 3
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tantek
ooh that first one with rounded corners and black bg looks much nicer
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aaronpk
ha, that's the older imagemagick
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tantek
wat - it says 08/15
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aaronpk
that's actually more like what I expected to happen. the crisp edges anyway, not so much the rounded corners)
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aaronpk
yeah, cause my server has older PHP than my laptop, so all new imports will be using the old imagemagick. yesterday I did a batch processing of them on my laptop
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aaronpk
I like the sharp edges and rounded corners, but I don't like the black background. unfortunately I don't know how to force this to happen.
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, should work now
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: ok trying again
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ben_thatmustbeme
ack, what the hell
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aaronpk
GOT A TOKEN
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ben_thatmustbeme
now why isn't quill.p3k though
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aaronpk
if I curl your home page with that token should I be seeing your private contact info?
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tantek
and does your home page support https so that the token can't be sniffed en route?
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ben_thatmustbeme
hmm, not yet, i don't think anything uses the tokens yet except for micropub
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aaronpk
and yes SSL is important for all this
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ben_thatmustbeme
it does not yet, but it will
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i know, I was more concerned with making it work up until now
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ben_thatmustbeme
still confused why quill.p3k.io isn't getting anything back from the token endpoint
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aaronpk
hm you know what I could probably generate that sleep image in SVG relatively easily
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aaronpk
since the color determines the height, all I have to do is read the bottom row of pixels and I'd get all the data
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tantek
or HTML+CSS, since it's so boxy and stuff ;)
#
tantek
in fact, probably less HTML+CSS than SVG :D
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aaronpk
well I do actually want a png version of it in the end
#
aaronpk
so that it shows up as a u-photo property
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aaronpk
nvm I mean svg is probably fine for the u-photo property
#
tantek
and if you're really going to stick with bar-chart-like appearance, Google Charts works too
#
aaronpk
but the important thing is that the sleep h-entry has a photo
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tantek
just pass it a bunch of parameters, and get back a PNG presto
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aaronpk
not gonna tie this to google
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aaronpk
most things know how to handle SVGs in <img> tags right?
#
aaronpk
"one of the things we realized when starting up Domain of One’s Own is that WordPress has become too central to our thinking—risking myopia" http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/
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aaronpk
should I add that quote to /monoculture ?
#
ben_thatmustbeme
okay, now this is really screwy... using discoverAuthorizationEndpoint when it is given 'http://ben.thatmustbe.me'
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ben_thatmustbeme
just silently fails
#
aaronpk
oh dear
#
ben_thatmustbeme
and its only from my server... oddly
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aaronpk
let me take a look
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ben_thatmustbeme
no, actually weird
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tantek
aaronpk - perhaps add it to /WordPress#Criticism##Monoculture
#
tantek
pulls out the fragfragmention
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ben_thatmustbeme
let me look in to this more... its returning a 200 OK
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aaronpk
did you just use a fragmention *and* an ID selector?
#
aaronpk
except there is no #Criticism section
#
tantek
I like pointing to things as if they exist, presuming they'll be created just by pointing to them.
#
tantek
and I thought there was actually...
#
tantek
ah Problems
#
ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, its not just on my server, must be something wrong parsing my site perhaps
#
aaronpk
#Problems is a sub-section of adding indieweb elements to wordpress
#
tantek
argh, so are a bunch of the other sections errantly
#
aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: oh dear, it's not declaring that php-mf2 is a dependency
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snarfed
KevinMarks: fun to see recent interaction webmentions on old articles of yours, e.g. http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/01/how-apple-lost-its-web-video-mojo-and.html#comments
#
tantek.com
edited /WordPress (+659) "fix subhead levels, Problems are more Criticism, separate out and explicitly call out criticism mitigations"
(view diff)
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kylewm
tommorris: I really like the idea of showing edits to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndieWebCamp and /IndieWeb here
#
aaronpk
I've definitely toyed with the idea of making Loqi subscribe to an RSS feed and show the feed entries here
#
tantek
add enwp.org/webmention and enwp.org/microformats also
#
aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: try with the new 0.1.4 release of indieauth-client. I'm able to get a result for your site with that
#
aaronpk
but it does require the "http" prefix
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kylewm.com
edited /Loqi (+284) "/* Ideas */"
(view diff)
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kylewm
maybe Loqi could be a micropub consumer that can subscribe to arbitrary services :)
#
kylewm
Loqi didn't like that idea
#
Loqi
grins profusely
#
aaronpk
there isn't really a concept of being a micropub consumer, micropub is for creating things
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kylewm
"provide a micropub_endpoint"
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tantek
your site is a micropub consumer
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aaronpk
ha wait so you want Loqi to have a micropub endpoint that would make him say things here?
#
aaronpk
I have been wanting Loqi to have his own website soon... probably powered by p3k
#
kylewm
yeah so like if you subscribed him to OwnYourGram, he would report instagram pictures
#
kylewm
or if there was a RSS -> micropub service...
#
aaronpk
whaaatt
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tantek
kylewm, micropub is push. RSS is pull.
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tantek
impedance mismatch
#
kylewm
(just trying to brainstorm ways to offload some work from aaronpk's queue without him having to open source Loqi)
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aaronpk
well I will tell you a secret. there is a UDP endpoint you can send things to that will make Loqi say things.
#
aaronpk
that's how wiki edits go here. it's from the original MediaWiki RecentChanges bot
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kylewm
UDP! fascinating
#
aaronpk
so hypotheticaly... if someone did want to write an RSS consumer that makes Loqi say things, you could run that anywhere and I could give you the secret codes to make Loqi talk
#
kylewm
oh, or just run another RecentChanges bot i suppose
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aaronpk
there can be only one bot!
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ben_thatmustbeme
so arronpk, now that you have a token (and i have SSL ordered) what do you think, a curl with Authorization in the header? or access_token in the post?
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aaronpk
you'll probably have to accept both
#
aaronpk
but the header will be used for GET requests
#
gRegor`
tantek: 8/23 HWC event is set up. Can you edit the Mediawiki:Sidebar? It's not editable by mere mortals.
#
tantek
gRegor`: ah, now that you're back, notice the sidebar has changed to solve this problem :D
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gRegor`
Also SF/PDX venues to be confirmed on 8/23 page.
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aaronpk
tantek: clever!
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gRegor`
Ah, nice
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gRegor`
I use the new theme, so I forget when I open the wiki in Firefox and I'm not logged in there, that it's cached.
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tantek
maybe the next time a design iteration is attempted it can build on that work
#
gRegor`
I wonder if that means some people might have a past event stuck in the sidebar based on the cache.
#
gRegor`
How frequently does it refresh, aaronpk?
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aaronpk
well next-hwc will fix that too
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aaronpk
i believe it's cached until the page is edited
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gRegor`
Only if they access it going forward
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gRegor`
Hm
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gRegor`
I'm looking at it in Firefox, not logged in, and it shows 8/13 event
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tantek
gRegor`: any updates to fixes / iteration on the "new theme" or is it stuck at demo time from June?
#
gRegor`
tantek: Been busy and haven't worked on it in a couple weeks, but I did make several typography improvements in http://gregorlove.com/indiewebcamp.css. If you put that CSS file on tantek.com you can try it.
#
gRegor`
Unfortunately actual template updates, like to fix the top navigation links, will probably require setting up a local MediaWiki install so I can test it. :/
#
tantek
gRegor`: presumably I can instead @import it live
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gRegor`
Yeah, should work.
#
aaronpk
yeah you can do css stuff live with the neat hack. but template updates will require you to set up a local mediawiki (of the specific version)
#
tantek
yeah the top nav links changes were kind of a usability disaster for anyone that edits the wiki (which frankly should be the #1 user type considered for the design, since our priority should be freshest/best content first)
#
tantek
I hope any further design iterations have a majority of folks who are actively editing the wiki working on them.
#
tantek
Rather than from a purely "reader" perspective.
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aaronpk
that's sort of the problem. I think most of us who edit the wiki aren't too put off by the current design, so it's not a huge itch to scratch.
#
aaronpk
(correct me if i'm wrong)
#
gRegor`
I hope it has both perspectives, actually. That's how I'm approaching it.
#
tantek
aaronpk - there's plenty of nits/warts I notice all the time
#
tantek
gRegor`: I fine with having both perspectives, I'd just prefer a majority editor perspective, since that should be the #1 design center.
#
gRegor`
Fixing accesskeys for common wiki functions would be nice, too. Template updates again, though.
#
tantek
right, I do miss Ctrl-E to edit, P to preview, S to save
#
gRegor`
I guess I'm in the minority, but I've always thought the wiki design looked a bit dated. I don't edit as heavily as tantek, but editing with the new theme hasn't been a barrier for me yet. Definitely still needs improvement.
#
gRegor`
tantek: When you edit, how frequently do you hit the top-level "Edit" vs the section edit links?
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tantek
not sure - but maybe about 50/50?
#
gRegor`
just noticed the section "edit" links in the new theme are proportionally sized to the heading. Adds to list to fix.
#
tantek
and hiding the top level Edit link was an unacceptable blocker - that's what clued me in that there wasn'n enough editor-centric design going on
#
gregorlove.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+105) "/* Issues */"
(view diff)
#
gregorlove.com
edited /wiki/redesign (+12) "/* Issues */"
(view diff)
#
kylewm
gRegor`: (this was a shitty, troll-filled thread but) this person also said it looked "dated" https://twitter.com/thecodezombie/status/499835177305403393
#
@thecodezombie
@scott_riley for a web conference, you'd also think that their website would look less, well...shit / 1995.
(twitter.com/_/status/499835177305403393)
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gRegor`
Yeah, I saw that
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gRegor`
I wouldn't say it's *that* dated.
#
gRegor`
remembers his 1995 Geocities site.
#
gRegor`
Let's . . . let's never talk of this again.
#
gRegor`
:)
#
tantek
wait I don't understand the fedora comment - is that a good thing or a bad thing? https://twitter.com/scott_riley/status/499825235240431617
#
@scott_riley
The first person attending this event is wearing a fedora so that pretty much tells all I need to know. http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/UK/Guest_List#Creators
(twitter.com/_/status/499825235240431617)
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kylewm
not worth it to try to understand, tantek
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tantek
I presume it was some sort of "hip" reference thus a good thing
#
gRegor`
Unfortunately a lot of "bros" wear fedoras. It's kind of become a shorthand for douches
#
tantek
oh no, really?
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tantek
[citation needed]
#
tantek
haha funny, the other guy who confused IndieWebCamp with ind.ie rants is defending the guy in the fedora! https://twitter.com/zachinglis/status/499912081651806208
#
tantek
zoms #notallfedoras
#
gRegor`
I honestly don't know a lot of the history of it. http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/fedora-shaming might help
#
tantek
wow now that's a citation
#
tantek
is tempted to wear a fedora to IWC UK
#
gRegor`
Haha
#
kylewm
fedora solidarity
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kylewm
genuine question, what's wrong with the wikipedia default skin? http://indiewebcamp.com/?useskin=vector
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kylewm
why not use that as the basis?
#
gRegor`
heyy, didn't know that was even there.
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tantek
wow didn't notice adactio jumped into that thread!
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aaronpk
I think because it screams "wiki" which is an immediate turnoff to some people
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tantek
that ^^^
#
tantek
s/that/This.
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: This. ^^^
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kylewm
ah, good answer
#
gRegor`
Thus. ^^^
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KevinMarks_
barnabywalters: shrewdness is not sending a redirct url to indieauth when I try to login with kevinmarks.com
#
barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: weird, looking into it now
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elliottucker
hey, has anyone bother trying to do use google+ profile for link backs? I get an unknown error when authenticating
#
tantek
so, IndieWebCamp logo'd fedoras would be out then?
#
KevinMarks_
how is there not a wikipedia page fro Amber?
#
tantek
KevinMarks: Wikipedia's double standards for notability are well known (when it comes to gender)
#
tantek
(still that is shocking)
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aaronpk
amber doesn't want a wikipedia page
#
aaronpk
because it's relatively out of her control
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tantek
aaronpk - I didn't realize subjects had a choice in the matter, if they were notable. cc: tommorris
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aaronpk
not having a wikipedia page is the default state
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tantek
aaronpk - so there never was one? like there wasn't one already and she asked for deletion?
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aaronpk
nope, there has never been one, because nobody has gone to the trouble of creating one
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tantek
aaronpk - I'm pretty shocked about that. Amber has been notable for quite some time.
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elliottucker
aaronpk: ahh...missed that. Had it in the Contribute to...
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#
@kevinmarks
“It’s everything I have learned to love about Tumblr, with the bonus of being open source…” http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ #indieweb @withknown
(twitter.com/_/status/500361489685831680)
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tantek
that's some high praise
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: thanks for the bug report, fixed now — try logging in!
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aaronpk
has always wanted an open-source tumblr
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aaronpk
known++
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Loqi
known has 1 karma
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tantek
Known++
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Loqi
Known has 2 karma
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tantek
upgrades known to uppercase Known :D
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gRegor`
!give idno's karma to Known
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Loqi
gives karma to Known to idno's
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gRegor`
Er
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aaronpk
oops yeah
#
aaronpk
Known++
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kylewm
re: open source tumblr, this guy is signed up for IWC UK https://github.com/icco/tumble
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tantek
gives Loqi a fish
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Loqi
hearts the fish
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KevinMarks_
hm, still not working, I end up at indieauth.com still
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: does tumble.io load fr you?
#
gRegor`
I know benwerd uploaded it, but is the logo really supposed to be public domain? http://indiewebcamp.com/File:Known-logo.png
#
GWG
!tell petermolnar I have a question for you about your full page cache plugin
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: what’s the URL you see directly after clicking log in?
#
kylewm
KartikPrabhu: nope, oops
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: wonder why he does not use tumble.io to run his own site
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barnabywalters
only thing I can think of is that the redirect param doesn’t look url-encoded
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: redirect_uri
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kylewm
will eventually learn to verify self-dogfooding before linking projects in the channel
#
barnabywalters
changing now, thanks aaronpk!
#
KartikPrabhu
kylewm: i think it is good to see other projects, just wondering why people don't use it themselves
#
Loqi
uri has -1 karma
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Loqi
url has 1 karma
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tantek
uri--
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Loqi
dude
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tantek
url++
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aaronpk
not my choice
#
KartikPrabhu
aah ok... uri vs url they both looked the same in lower case :P
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KevinMarks_
you could quietly accept URL as well
#
aaronpk
ha I suppose I *could* accept both, but that may lead to incompatible implementations when used against other auth servers
#
gregorlove.com
created /ProcessWire (+379) "stub"
(view diff)
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bear
I would rather you change the font used for documentation
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kylewm
aaronpk: what do you think of supporting out-of-browser redirect_uri (e.g. urn:ietf:wg:oauth:2.0:oob)
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bear
than have it take url
#
aaronpk
bear++
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Loqi
bear has 18 karma
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks_: yes that was one of Eran's parting gifts to the spec
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kylewm
where oob shows a code and lets you enter the code on the command line
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aaronpk
kylewm: probably reasonable
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aaronpk
but unlikely to be used except for debugging
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KevinMarks_
I know, yes.
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bear
kylewm we replaced the oob requirement in python-twitter by using a call to open the browser with the proper url
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bear
saved so many questions in the forum about that
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ben_thatmustbeme
aaronpk, that should do it, in theory be able to pass that key now and have it log in
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aaronpk
ben_thatmustbeme: you lost me what is going on?
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kylewm
aaronpk: i looked at PushupCounter-iOS for guidance. it looked like you used a one-off scheme "pushups://", is that right? https://github.com/aaronpk/PushupCounter-iOS/blob/master/PushupCounter/PKAuthViewController.m#L32
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ben_thatmustbeme
i have been working on passing a token in the headers to my site... sorry had that response queued up for a while
#
aaronpk
kylewm: yes the app registers that scheme so when safari sends the redirect it launches the app
#
kylewm
bear: looking at python-twitter
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KevinMarks_
hm, if I hand-edit url to uri in the indiauth url it still fails
#
barnabywalters
well, I just updated it with that fix but apparently there’s more to do
#
KevinMarks_
I did a refresh, might have been cahcing at my end
#
KevinMarks_
now it works but gives me a white page after login
#
KevinMarks_
literally no HTML
#
barnabywalters
okay well that’s a semi-good sign
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#
@RikMende
Teaching Without WordPress: Exploring the Known World http://bavatuesdays.com/teaching-without-wordpress-exploring-the-known-world/ via @benwerd #indieweb is coming & it's #disruptivetech
(twitter.com/_/status/500370002865041408)
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: any chance you could send me your cookie value for shrewdness.waterpigs.co.uk?
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barnabywalters
I know what the issue is but not where it’s coming from
#
kylewm
bear: I think I was confused about what oob does... It looks like python-twitter uses https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/pin-based-authorization which is what i was wondering about for indieauth
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bear
oob is not pin based
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bear
twitter dropped oob a while ago
#
kylewm
bear: so this page is incorrect?
#
bear
looks
#
bear
hmm, it's accurate - I wonder if they fixed it
#
barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: thanks, figured it out! it’ll take a minute to update, I had to change a library
#
barnabywalters
also, generally a good idea to keep those URLs private :) aaronpk are simple-flow indieauth tokens single use?
#
aaronpk
i believe they expire in 30 seconds
#
barnabywalters
oh well that should be fine then
#
KevinMarks_
remembers when we realised that about OAuth
#
aaronpk
barnabywalters: oh actuall they are one-time use
#
bear
kylewm I cannot find oob usage anywhere in my code - that's why I'm suggesting it may not be a good thing to implement. I know a couple years ago we had all kinds of grief with twitter about it
#
benwerd
just spotted the benward / benwerd snafu above. sorry once again benward_
#
ben_thatmustbeme
so continuing our discussion from before aaronpk, its really just a matter of generating an auth code with your auth endpoint, and we successfully got you a token for authentication to my site
#
bear
but to be honest - I know just use requests-oauthlib for my python code and it works - I don't have to dig into oauth flow ever again
#
kylewm
requests-oauthlib++
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Loqi
requests-oauthlib has 1 karma
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kylewm
I use and love it too
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barnabywalters
oookay KevinMarks_ try again now (5th time lucky)
#
barnabywalters
this is really useful debugging, I haven’t had anyone sign in using the simple indieauth flow to taproot/authentication yet
#
bear
requests-oauthlib++
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Loqi
requests-oauthlib has 2 karma
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KevinMarks_
sorry , on gillmor gang
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ben_thatmustbeme
barnabywalters. since you asked, i am logging it. It really doesn't like it if I don't give it the http:// for my login
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barnabywalters
KevinMarks_: np, getting food
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ben_thatmustbeme
s/logging it/logging in/
#
Loqi
ben_thatmustbeme meant to say: barnabywalters. since you asked, i am logging in. It really doesn't like it if I don't give it the http:// for my login
#
@heathr
New post: Create Outrage. Profit from Same Outrage. Buzzfeed, Media and Creators. http://www.heathergold.com/workforfree/ #indieweb #RobinWilliams @scottros
(twitter.com/_/status/500376356538941442)
#
@mediajunkie
RT @heathr: New post: Create Outrage. Profit from Same Outrage. Buzzfeed, Media and Creators. http://www.heathergold.com/workforfree/ #indieweb #RobinWilli…
(twitter.com/_/status/500376684353179648)
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manny___, tantek and tantek-ipod joined the channel
#
@nchenga
http://withknown.com/ Known is open source tumblr based on web standards @kevinmarks is excited about indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/500390375446810625)
#
KevinMarks_
plugs indieweb and known on gillmor gang
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aaronpk
tantek: my sleeps look soooo much better as SVGs now! http://aaronparecki.com/metrics/2014/08/14/061509/
#
kylewm
"...Unfortunately, any sort of "engagement" that happens on a given service is typically going to remain sequestered there. It would be wonderful to have commenting etc. that works across all services."
#
@benwerd
@ericholscher You should join us all at #indiewebcamp DC in the spring! @jimgroom @erinjo @withknown
(twitter.com/_/status/500394684917633024)
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KevinMarks_
aaronpk: are you making them from data or by processing their images?
#
aaronpk
the only data I have *is* their image
#
aaronpk
they don't make that resolution of data available in the api
#
aaronpk
so I basically scan each pixel of the image and look at the color to read the "data" and then re-generate the image
#
aaronpk
I *could* do more with it, because at that point I essentially know start/stop timestamps for each "level" of sleep
#
kylewm
have you read The Lathe of Heaven, aaronpk?
#
@davewiner
@Johannes_Ernst -- the only indieweb guy who does that is ward christianson. i would be happy to talk with him.
(twitter.com/_/status/500395618691710976)
#
kylewm
these images make me think of the dream Augmentor
#
kylewm
(set in Portland, also)
#
KevinMarks_
!tell barnabywalters now it says "You must be logged in to view this page." after I login :(
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
aaronpk
oh man davewiner
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#
@davewiner
@Johannes_Ernst -- you can talk about indie webs and micro formats, but what ends up mattering is: 1. Software. 2. Content. 3. Users.
(twitter.com/_/status/500395507760783360)
#
tantek
actually none of that matters besides users, the rest is a side effect of designing for users.
#
KevinMarks_
which I think Dave gets - his company was called userland after all
#
tantek
software is disposable and nearly irrelevant except as a means to an ends
#
tantek
the fact that winer puts that first in that list shows a misunderstanding of priorities
#
bret
err more, on the app store model than native apps, but they go hand in hand
#
bret
the more I read winer, the less I respect his views. hes contradics himself all the time
#
KevinMarks_
theres an interesting bit of meaning shift going on around "native"
#
KevinMarks_
I wonder if "native advertising" will taint "native apps"
#
bret
cant install adblock on an iphone
#
KevinMarks_
I respect Winer for building things and talking about them in public - he has been doing that for 20 years and is a role model in that respect
#
bret
(rooting does not count)
#
KevinMarks_
by keeping his history up, you can see him changing his mind over time, which is a good thing
#
bret
KevinMarks_: I respect that too. It's his inability to process cometing ideas that is frustrating
#
bret
competing*
#
bret
KevinMarks_: at least in the short term
#
aaronpk
wow he really did build a JSON version of his RSS feed http://scripting.com/rss.json
#
bret
has he ever made a coherent argument against microformats, other than its not rss?
#
KartikPrabhu
I should put out a YAML version of my feed
#
aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: and protocol buffers
#
aaronpk
or whatever the successor of that is
#
KartikPrabhu
what is protocol buffers?
#
Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "protocol buffers" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=protocol+buffers
#
aaronpk
it's a google thing
#
KevinMarks_
the chap building the successor came to homebrew 2 weeks ago - sandstorm was it?
#
aaronpk
binary serialization format
#
KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: just saw. blergh
#
kylewm
he built Protocol buffers too
#
kylewm
Kenton
#
tantek
is this another twitter debate?
#
aaronpk
I don't think so
#
KevinMarks_
if they can get the capabilities stuff right, it could be very interesting
#
tantek
I mean all the winer discussion - what's actually new or is this another rss flareup?
#
kylewm
tantek: j12t accused him of being #indieweb
#
tantek
oh boy
#
aaronpk
kylewm: lol
#
kylewm
good natured enough, no debacle
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KevinMarks_
what is sandstorm?
#
Loqi
Sandstorm is open source software project that aims to make self-hosted personal clouds easy as well as offering a hosted paid version for less technically inclined users http://indiewebcamp.com/sandstorm
#
@_AndreasGrimm
the open, #indieweb will take over .. again. @t did an awesome talk at #webdirections. https://www.youtube.com/ no more silos!
(twitter.com/_/status/500414956660355072)
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kylewm
that's interesting "The Sandstorm platform sits between the user and the app, so when an HTTP request arrives at the app, it is already annotated with information about the user’s identity and permissions as authenticated by the platform."
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KevinMarks_
I didn't completely get this 2 weeks ago (partly because we were talking about macrelics at the same time)
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KevinMarks_
very interesting
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KevinMarks_
wonders if I can fix my noterlive deployment problems with sandstorm
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KevinMarks_
lines up the yaks
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KartikPrabhu
what us yak shaving?
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KartikPrabhu
what is yak shaving?
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Loqi
It looks like we don't have a page for "yak shaving" yet. Would you like to create it? http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/index.php?action=edit&title=yak+shaving
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rascul
any recent indieweb related talks to watch? last i saw was KevinMarks_ at ignite
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KevinMarks_
how was that one?
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rascul
it was good i liked it
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rascul
ooo i forgot about that one, thanks aaronpk
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rascul
looks like two there i haven't seen yet
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rascul
KevinMarks_ i found it on youtube a couple days after it happened
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rascul
i especially liked your volcano fax number :)
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KevinMarks_
I should add it to that page
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kylewm
plz do
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rascul
i didn't find a video of the individual talk, it was near the end of a long video of what appeared to be all the talks for an hour or two i think
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KevinMarks_
not mine, it's a shadowy group of unnamed people at schema.org's volcano fax number
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KevinMarks_
and Dan, bless him
manny__, paulcp and npdoty joined the channel
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KevinMarks_
wondering if I should keep pestagram running
tantek-ipod, awolf, tantek_, paulcp, benwerd and manny__ joined the channel
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tantek
^^^ we allow non TLD paths?
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tantek
rascul, mine from Web Directions just got posted
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
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tantek
should add that to the /videos_about page
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tantek
is this a Node error message? "Unable to connect to any application instances."