#indiewebcamp 2014-07-19

2014-07-19 UTC
#
tantek
GWG - there's certainly an opportunity for someone to build a new real time search engine / site / service
#
snarfed
isn't klout the new technorati?
#
tantek
snarfed klout has search? ;)
#
snarfed
who knows
#
tantek
didn't think so
#
tantek
GWG - problem right now with building a real time search engine is that no one would bother using it unless it had Twitter firehose indexed, which is prohibitive (both from a pay-Twitter perspective, and from a build-infrastructure-to-handle perspective)
#
tantek
even Google couldn't do it
#
tantek
thus it's not time to try that
#
GWG
tantek: I was more thinking of it from the Indieweb perspective. If there is a lower bar substitute.
#
tantek
but maybe time to start experimenting with indieweb-only real time search, if only to provide a service to the community to iterate on
#
tantek
except current majority opinion is that PuSH is too much of a pain to consume, so we're stuck once again
#
mko
It'd basically be a curated search system.
#
tantek
without a practical real time publishing notification protocol
#
mko
The bigger problem that I see would be that it would a pretty serious echo chamber on most topics.
#
tantek
presumably as people develop /readers on their own sites, that will force the issue of real time subscriptions
#
tantek
mko - why? because we seem to agree on everything here? ;)
#
GWG
tantek: What about snarfed's solution?
#
mko
lol. You know it.
#
snarfed
oh god i hope i didn't propose a search solution
#
tantek
mko - I say you're categorically wrong about echo chamber. and the irc logs prove it. :D
#
GWG
snarfed: No, a real time publishing notification protocol
#
snarfed
oh god i hope i didn't propose a real time publishing notification protocol
#
mko
To be fair, tantek, we typically come to a consensus before we really do much posting.
#
tantek
snarfed, you proposed a simplification of PuSH? do tell!
#
GWG
snarfed: You use bridgy/publish, which can be an empty link...to generate a webmention
#
tantek
mko - disagreed. we typically ship stuff on our own sites first, then discuss later
#
snarfed
GWG: ah. webmention…sure
#
tantek
that's the difference, we don't wait around for people to argue
#
tantek
and sometimes, whoever ships something that works wins
#
mko
True story.
#
kylewm
GWG: I'm excited about where you're going with this, webmentions for topic tags?
#
tantek
you might be waiting for consensus … ;)
#
GWG
snarfed: I didn't say it was a protocol. I said a solution
#
mko
So snarfed better ship that real-time publishing notification protocol and search engine.
#
tantek
(ok I'll stop giving mko a hard time for a week :) )
#
GWG
kylewm: It could work, couldn't it?
#
mko
No, tantek. Please don't.
#
kylewm
GWG: I have a half written blog post about it
#
mko
The pressure is nice.
#
tantek
mko - like I said, I'll give you the week you asked for :)
#
snarfed
mko: a) webmention, and b) i punt :P
#
GWG
kylewm: What does it say?
#
kylewm
GWG: we could just start pinging non-existent pages like indiewebcamp.com/indietags/sometopic and I think they'd show up here
#
GWG
kylewm: There a downside?
#
kylewm
so that's my handwave proof of concept
#
GWG
kylewm: So, we were thinking the same basic idea
#
GWG
kylewm: Question is what we are mentioning...the effect
#
kylewm
Something like news.indiewebcamp.com maybe, but that shows recent posts for a given topic
#
kylewm
news.indiewebcamp.com/politics or something
#
kylewm
not sure
#
GWG
Time to bring back the Planet?
#
kylewm
what is Planet?
#
snarfed
kylewm GWG: if you guys come up with a better bridgy publish algorithm for figuring out what to publish based on p-name/p-summary/e-content etc, please do file an issue, i'll happily implement it
#
tantek
is still waiting for a more user-centric term for what is "Planet"
#
GWG
snarfed: I think the image one is the first one.
#
GWG
snarfed: You also have things like h-as-article . Not quite standard, but an optional way to specify such things
#
GWG
snarfed: That one
#
kylewm
GWG: even if you just have a post that didn't work the way you wanted, that would be useful
#
GWG
snarfed: But there are multiple ways to specify content type
#
GWG
kylewm: Which would?
#
tantek
wait is anyone actually consuming h-as-article?
#
tantek
I just put them in my own posts for styling hooks
#
GWG
tantek: I don't know. I stole it from pfefferle's Sempress
#
GWG
tantek: Along with h-as-aside etc
#
tantek
oh boy - class name leakage
#
GWG
tantek: I checked its heritage. It had a pedigree
#
GWG
But, for Bridgy purposes, it could be used for styling
#
kylewm
GWG: even without an algorithm, I would like a GH issue to track example posts, what you wanted Bridgy publish to do and what it did (assuming that's ok with snarfed)
#
snarfed
always ok!
#
kylewm
(I'm amused that 'what is Planet?' worked, but I still don't know what it is)
#
GWG
kylewm: I need to see if there are any Bridgy issues about publish to start with
#
kylewm
it has a tag
#
GWG
Okay
#
GWG
Will need to read to avoid duplication of thought
#
GWG
I probably have read some of them
#
tantek
snarfed, do you have a URL to Twitter location search? I don't think I've seen that before
#
snarfed
tantek: sorry, i don't quite follow
#
tantek
do you have a URL where I can do a location search on Twitter?
#
tantek
you mentioned faceted by location - I've never seen it
#
snarfed
ah. it's in the search sidebar on the left
#
snarfed
"near you"
#
tantek
wow that is horribly incomplete
#
snarfed
tantek: try the top/all switch?
#
snarfed
also most tweets aren't location tagged
#
tantek
I did - "All" "Near you"
#
tantek
same on the indieweb - most posts aren't location tagged
brianloveswords joined the channel
#
kylewm
snarfed: GWG: one more issue to add for publish for me... convert tagged author domains with twitter usernames https://kylewm.com/reply/2014/07/01/1
#
snarfed
kylewm: that would be awesome! tricky though. it's doable for people already signed up with bridgy, but harder if they're not
#
kylewm
agree on all counts
#
snarfed
(i'd also file the reverse feature request w/red wind: convert them back in the replies :P)
#
kylewm
lol, good point
#
snarfed
k, i'm off. looking forward to all the new bridgy publish issues! :P
#
GWG
Challenge...
#
kylewm
I wonder if I could mark up the h-cards in a way that would include the twitter username...
#
snarfed
totally! probably in a data-* attribute
#
kylewm
was just going to ask
#
kylewm
are those "ok"?
#
snarfed
actually i'd add an extra u-url pointing to their twitter.com profile
#
kylewm
as does IndieWebCamp have an Official Stance opposing data- attrs?
#
snarfed
got me. that's where i back away slowly
#
GWG
waits for Socratic like tantek response
#
snarfed
i'd vote for the extra u-url inside the h-card
#
GWG
snarfed: But how does a parser know u-url priority?
#
kylewm
ah gotcha, <span class="h-card"><a class="u-url" href="https://twitter.com/benwerd"></a><a class="u-url" href="https://werd.io">Ben</a></span>
#
snarfed
GWG: it doesn't need priority. in this case it's just searching for a silo profile url
#
snarfed
kylewm++
#
Loqi
kylewm has 30 karma
#
GWG
snarfed: For Bridgy, no. For other choices...
#
snarfed
GWG: yup, i punt. empty link text, display: none, etc.
#
snarfed
(all mf2 properties are multi-valued, so it's technically on parsers and clients to handle it)
#
snarfed
anyway, out for real this time, bye guys!
#
kylewm
the only thing i know is that i'm not indifferent to that idea
#
kylewm
i definitely either love it or hate it and don't know which
#
GWG
Oh?
#
kylewm
ha yeah, just the hidden data part
#
kylewm
maybe the extended h-card for tagged people could be hidden with a way to show it
#
kylewm
like on mko's homepage
#
mko
My new homepage has an even more extended h-card.
#
mko
I've got all of my known identities that I feel could be relevant to someone listed out.
#
mko
So it's first hidden under a "Show Detailed Bio" and then "Show More Detail"
#
GWG
I prefer a different page, than hiding
#
tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+922) "break down search & notification features into specifics in terms of indieweb features, move client support to a new section"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+1) "/* Clients */ as sort of a feature, heading level"
(view diff)
#
mko
It has almost every piece of relevant information that you could want plus all of the potential places that I post, could be contacted, or otherwise reached.
#
tantek
snarfed - for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents
#
tantek
many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve
#
mko
I'd love to have that on its own page with better formatting and features around it, but there's no way to expose it to a parser without changing all of my rel=me links on social services to point to the about page of my website instead of my homepag.e
#
mko
homepage*
#
mko
I'd much rather they point to my homepage, clearly, so I make the content interactively hidden.
brianloveswords, nagaway and scor joined the channel
#
tantek
has a feeling he needs to scroll up to catch up with some discussion
#
tantek
oh oops snarfed left
#
tantek
!tell snarfed for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents. many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
emmak, wolftune, nagaway, androtest, androte46, androte9 and snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 10 minutes ago: for your review, in particular the expanded treatment of search and notification in terms of a bit more detail / description of indieweb equivalents. many of those details are a first attempt - feel free to disagree/dispute/improve http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
androtest joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek: notification part lgtm. search part is a good description of what we'd need to replace twitter on our own site(s), but it's not really a description of twitter's own search, which it probably should be given the section heading
#
snarfed
maybe it should go down into the Replacing section, and revert the feature one to the earlier text, with a big disclaimer?
#
snarfed
you've worked hard on this page and the intent, so i'd defer to you
chrissaad joined the channel
#
tantek
!tell snarfed yes we probably need to at least document the question of what would it take to stop using twitter.com for search
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+174) "/* Replacing */ add point about expanded search for use-cases that you use Twitter search for"
(view diff)
#
tantek
GWG, kylewm, mko - yes u-url for all your profile URLs is sensible. In terms of which matters more, you can always order them (order is preserved when parsing), and use rel=me on them and also use u-uid to what you consider your canonical / unique URL for you.
#
rascul
tantek do you use nginx?
#
tantek
no litespeed
#
rascul
ahh ok
#
rascul
i've been documenting my nginx https work here https://indiewebcamp.com/User:Rascul.io/ssl
#
rascul
i'm still working on it though but plans are to update /nginx with some of the stuff there
#
tantek
sounds like a good plan!
#
bear
yes rascul++ for getting even better cert config items in place
#
bear
rascul++
#
Loqi
rascul has 12 karma
#
rascul
whoa i thought i had nine last time!
#
rascul
i think Loqi is cheating
#
bear
with the list of browsers that don't support SNI being so old now - worrying about it even for IndieWeb stuff is almost a non-issue IMO
#
bear
IE8 being very well distributed
gRegor` joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /tags (+284) "expand dfn inline, list people-tag explicitly"
(view diff)
#
bear
the decision point is if you will force http:// -> https:// on first load
#
bear
if you don't then you can configure the admin and POST routes to be https only and just let it all hang out
#
GWG
rascul: Reminds me to update some of those
#
bear
goes back to packing
#
bear
taxi to airport arrives at 0330 - bed time for me very soon
snarfed joined the channel
#
Loqi
snarfed: tantek left you a message 14 minutes ago: yes we probably need to at least document the question of what would it take to stop using twitter.com for search
#
@t
just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91)
(twitter.com/_/status/490312706650431489)
#
tantek
snarfed - added search to Replacing: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Replacing
#
tantek
and just left it open as "what you use Twitter search for"
#
tantek
which I think will differ from person to person
#
snarfed
tantek: great!
#
snarfed
the search item in the first section still describes indieweb search, not really twitter search, but up to you what to do with that
#
tantek
snarfed - oh right I see what you mean - I got contexts mixed up
#
rascul
GWG update some of what?
#
tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+238) "/* Features */ fix contextual description of Twitter Features, expand search in "replacing" section"
(view diff)
#
tantek
snarfed - thanks for catching that - I was trying to keep too many things in my head and the right thing ended up in the wrong place - take a look now: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#Features
#
tantek
(Replacing section also expanded)
#
snarfed
tantek: np. lgtm!
#
tantek
snarfed++ for so politely saying I think you got the search description wrong in the Twitter features description. Good example to learn from. :)
#
Loqi
snarfed has 37 karma
#
snarfed
tantek: aww thanks. teamwork!
androte17 and krendil joined the channel
#
gRegor`
catches up on logs
#
tantek
is off for the night - will have to get to snarfed et al h-card issue documentation later.
#
gRegor`
mko: I think your links should be "Show detailed bio" and "Show detaileder bio"
Moestradamus joined the channel
#
gRegor`
kylewm: Noticed your note tags don't show up in the mf2 as categories. Is that intended?
jacus joined the channel
paulcp and salanto1 joined the channel
#
kylewm
gRegor`: thanks for pointing that out, no not intended... oversight when i did the new theme
#
kylewm
gRegor`: out of curiosity, how'd you notice? doing something with tags?
#
gRegor`
I was using your note as a quick reference for my note ^, since it's sort of a re-post. The citations, basically.
#
gRegor`
I'm not set up for tags yet, but thought about manually adding the tag "ohgod", heh
#
kylewm
oh man, I almost did the same thing with those three lines!! that's hilarious
#
gRegor`
I only regret I was not actually here during that whole convo
#
gRegor`
I would have been like: michael-jackson-popcorn.gif
#
kylewm
I need to figure out some type of server/performance monitoring...
#
gRegor`
Having problems?
#
kylewm
apparently I've been sending bridgy beaucoups malformed http responses
#
kylewm
and no idea why
#
gRegor`
beaucoups?
#
gRegor`
French malformed http responses? Heh
#
kylewm
i meant it to be pronounced boo-coo though
#
rascul
bookoo
#
kylewm
hehe, thank you
#
rascul
i don't know if that's actually the word you wanted though
#
rascul
that's just what came to my mind
#
kylewm
'twas
#
gRegor`
Ahh. I honestly never knew that was spelled "beaucoup." The more you knoww.
#
gRegor`
I think your like needs your author h-card inside the h-entry, kylewm.
#
kylewm
gRegor`: do you use php-comments?
#
gRegor`
No
#
gRegor`
I thought something was wrong with my parsing (and might be), but it doesn't seem correct per /authorship either.
#
gRegor`
If it was in an h-feed, I could use the "top" h-card
#
gRegor`
Or a u-url == u-uid == current page
#
kylewm
hrmph, yeah I thought it was ok to have a top-level h-card outside the h-entry
#
kylewm
but you're right
#
gRegor`
Er, disregard. That's under rel-author
#
kylewm
/authorship doesn't support that
#
gRegor`
Making the whole <body> an h-feed would work, though
#
gRegor`
With no need to move stuff around
#
gRegor`
Thought maybe that's a bit hacky, since it's not really meant as a feed?
#
kylewm
I should make the whole page an h-entry
#
gRegor`
Oh, duh. Yeah, that works. :)
#
Loqi
it is probable
#
gRegor`
Highly, Loqi
sparverius joined the channel
#
kylewm
I resent gRegor`, does that look better?
#
gRegor`
Hey, don't resent me for this. ;)
#
kylewm
s/I resent gRegor`/I resent, gRegor`
#
Loqi
kylewm meant to say: I resent, gRegor`, does that look better?
#
kylewm
not at all, thank you for helping me fix my broken markup!!
#
gRegor`
Yep, looks like it worked!
#
kylewm
my h-feed needs a p-name
#
kylewm
gRegor`: do you not show comments on your notes yet?
#
gRegor`
Not yet
#
gRegor`
But it all looks correct in the backend
#
gRegor`
My webmention plugin was pretty tightly tied to the blog posts, so I've been working on abstracting it so I can display comments on any URL path, not just an article.
wolftune, sparverius, fmarier and GWG joined the channel
KartikPrabhu, jschweinsberg, glennjones, petermolnar1 and cweiske joined the channel
jschweinsberg joined the channel
julian joined the channel
danfowler joined the channel
#
@jmrobles
Site deaths are one of the big reasons why you should own your own identity and content on the web http://indiewebcamp.com/site_deaths
(twitter.com/_/status/490482541250764800)
Rev_Illo, pbeaulieu and vanderwal joined the channel
#
waterpigs.co.uk
edited /venues (+720) "Documented my venue publishing"
(view diff)
glennjones, chrissaad, friedcell and bnvk joined the channel
#
@OnTheWebz
RT @t: just informed my manager of @chloeweil's passing - I barely held it together. He'd met her @IndieWebCamp NYC in April. (ttk.me t4X91)
(twitter.com/_/status/490516139869360129)
brianloveswords, friedcell and wolftune joined the channel
#
kylewm.com
uploaded /File:kylewm-android-firefox-icons-2014-07-19.png "Firefox for Android icons from kylewm's phone"
#
kylewm.com
edited /icon (+112) "/* Android browser comparisons */"
(view diff)
#
pdurbin
man, Loqi never sleeps
#
Loqi
who, me?
#
pdurbin
Loqi: yeah you
brianloveswords, wolftune, snarfed, cuibonobo and memecake joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
just found out from the site-deaths page that Svpply is going down… guess i need to grab my data
tantek joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
just for some perspective: my primary motivation for moving to indieweb is actually because of these more fragile sites: bookmarks, wishlists, pinboards, etc.
#
cuibonobo
the personal website space is very robust and has a bunch of options to choose from
#
cuibonobo
but a solid place for a wishlist? not so much
crossdiver and jschweinsberg joined the channel
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: yeah, I'm into data liberation and avoiding vendor lock-in
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: do you know of any indie sites that that are being used as a replacement to, say, Evernote?
#
cuibonobo
i'm having trouble finding examples of indie sites being used for private data
#
pdurbin
hmm. I just use git for that. a repo only I can reach
#
cuibonobo
i gotcha. i'm looking to build something that allows my stuff to be searched / sorted / tagged — all the common website stuff, but applied to private data as well
#
tantek.com
edited /Twitter (+60) "/* Replacing */ order a bit by importance / likely frequency of use"
(view diff)
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: would you build mobile apps too? my wife uses evernote but often from a phone or tablet
#
tantek
good morning #indiewebcamp!
#
pdurbin
tantek: mornin'
#
cuibonobo
i don't think i have the time or mental bandwidth to grok native device apps, but i *do* subscribe to the app mentality: my website would be an app that consumes my public data API, posting would be through an app that has been registered with the API, etc.
#
cuibonobo
tantek: hello!
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: the public data api could be git :)
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: hah! true enough, but is there a good way to query flat files?
#
pdurbin
sure. http://ikiwiki.info is backed by git and has search. you could make it private
#
pdurbin
for search ikiwiki uses http://xapian.org
barnabywalters joined the channel
#
tantek
pdurbin do you use ikiwiki?
#
pdurbin
tantek: yes, but my instance is not private: http://wiki.greptilian.com
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: aha. so it needs to be indexed. fair enough. i'm actually between using flat files and then indexing with elasticsearch or using a database for both
#
tantek
pdurbin excellent! will add to wiki
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: careful. don't say database around tantek or aaronpk ;)
#
donpdonp
the policially correct term is 'indexed binary file'
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: haha! i've been lurking for a few days / reading people's sites and had gathered as much :)
#
pdurbin
solr can index from a database. I assume elasticsearch can too
#
Loqi
nice
#
pdurbin
tantek: cool. click on "freedom" at https://www.branchable.com when you get a chance
#
pdurbin
"Everyone should own and control their data. So when you make a web site on Branchable, we don't lock you in. You can use git to download the entire source code of your web site at any time, and move it elsewhere if you desire."
#
cuibonobo
i understand that flat files allow for greater portability, but being able to search them requires building an index (or outsourcing to google) and the link between the files and the index can be very fragile
#
tantek.com
edited /wiki-projects (+95) "add ikiwiki"
(view diff)
#
pdurbin
oh cool, that quote is already at http://indiewebcamp.com/Branchable
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: I don't recall setting up xapian with ikiwiki being too tough. it "just works"
#
pdurbin
these days (at work) I'm using solr
#
aaron_pk
flat file storage sounds cooler if you call it NoSQL
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: well, i feel like there's a trade-off: search solutions that work very robustly with flat files generally can't do faceted search, i.e. only notes, stuff tagged with x
#
aaron_pk
elasticsearch can index whatever you want from flat files
#
aaron_pk
I opted for a regular MySQL index for my flat files tho
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: solr does faceted search. and works with flat files and more with Tika: http://tika.apache.org/1.5/formats.html
#
pdurbin
aaron_pk: interesting. so you could switch your database-cache from mysql to elasticsearch or whatever
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: sure, but the parser between the flat files and the index is the 'delicate' part i had mentioned before
#
pdurbin
sure. you'll want a way to re-index everything if need be. blow away the index and re-index it all
#
aaron_pk
pdurbin: yep. or in my case more likely postgres
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: why is it delicate? in my experience it’s the opposite, because if something goes wrong you can throw away the broken index and just rebuild everything
#
pdurbin
what barnabywalters said
#
barnabywalters
without having to touch actual data
#
aaron_pk
yeah I have a script that I used to build my index in the first place, and several times I've already tossed the DB out the window and rebuilt
#
aaron_pk
(mostly when I was developing my Post class which is responsible for writing the files and updating its index)
#
cuibonobo
well, i was actually looking to use mongodb as storage. so my process would be reversed: dump the database to flat files
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: ah, you might be confusing flat file storage with having a static site
#
pdurbin
it's a free country
#
barnabywalters
are you talking about storing your posts in mongodb and having a build step which produces HTML which you serve?
#
cuibonobo
barnabywalters: nope. in mongo, each entry is a 'document' that doesn't need a schema, so a flat file storage dumped from mongo would look very similar to the flat files you use for your own site
#
aaron_pk
barnabywalters++ for venues!
#
Loqi
barnabywalters has 48 karma
#
aaron_pk
barnabywalters: how did you pick the URL slug for venues? was hoping that would be documented on the /venues page
#
barnabywalters
aaron_pk: er, I just ASCIIfy the name of the venue
#
cuibonobo
barnabywalters: but yes, i was looking to store the posts in mongo and have my site be an app that consumes that data
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: can you shove any flat file into mongo? does it have to be json or something?
#
aaron_pk
barnabywalters: what do you do about conflicts?
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: ah okay. Really the point of the whole storage debate is about the longevity of the *canonical* copy of the data
#
barnabywalters
aaron_pk: currently, nothing. In the future, probably adding the locality/country name to the end of the slug
#
barnabywalters
also planning on showing webmentions for the venues, so a checkin will be a note with a rel-venue (or something) to the venue URL
#
aaron_pk
ah ok. was hoping to steal some ideas from you on that :)
#
barnabywalters
and then other people can also check in to my venues
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: it should be json, but other than that there's no schema per se. so your document could very easily be `{"document":"your data here"}`
#
barnabywalters
aaron_pk: my current thinking is: ASCIIfy the name, if that already exists add the locality and city, if that already exists add an incrementing number
#
barnabywalters
although maybe something more sophisticated like a geohash could be used
#
barnabywalters
s/locality and city/locality and country
#
aaron_pk
the human readable aspect of your current URLs is nice
#
bret
aaron_pk, barnabywalters, is there a DB like interface that queues actions on flat files and prevents concurrent access issues
#
bret
or like some kind of transactional interface
#
barnabywalters
bret: not that I know of, other than good ‘ol locks
#
aaron_pk
bret: I haven't encountered a situation where I would generate a concurrent access issue yet
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: ok. thanks
#
cuibonobo
barnabywalters: hmm. the 'canonical' copy is something that i've also found confusing regarding the indieweb. this is digital data. there is literally no difference between the original and the copy besides the story in your mind
#
bret
meh locks... i wonder if it wold be worth it to have a single writer RCU type thingy over a file system.
#
aaron_pk
bret: a lot of my stuff is done in a queue so it's already serialized
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: there are huge, practical differences such as naming/addressing, access control, resolution, ease of backing up, ease of restoring from backups, etc
#
barnabywalters
but also the term canonical is used for a couple of different things
#
cuibonobo
yes, but the data itself is the same, which is why i take issue with 'canonical'
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: no it is not
#
barnabywalters
for example, my index doesn’t have all the data in the canonical copy
#
barnabywalters
only the bits which need indexing
#
cuibonobo
then can you call it a copy?
#
bret
aaron_pk: what what the queue you used again?
#
barnabywalters
it’s not a copy, it’s an index. perhaps we are talking about different things
#
barnabywalters
what example of copies of data are you imagining?
#
aaron_pk
bret: beanstalkd
#
cuibonobo
in my personal case, if i use mongodb for storage and each item has a unique id, i can dump the entire contents of the database to flat files as id001.txt, id002.txt, etc.
#
cuibonobo
and mongo handles the index for me, so i don't have to think about it
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: and then what are the text files used for?
#
@withknown
We're at the #reclaimyourdomain hackathon this weekend. #indieweb in education is an exciting idea! http://reclaimyourdomain.org/
(twitter.com/_/status/490542672856088576)
#
cuibonobo
barnabywalters: backup of a backup? porting to some other backend? i'm not sure! i was just trying to illustrate that there was no practical difference between what would be in my 'database' and what's in my 'file system'
#
barnabywalters
cuibonobo: there are huge practical differences like ease of backing up, ease of inspection, ease of searching
#
barnabywalters
these are significant things
#
cuibonobo
yes, but which is 'canonical'? that's the only thing that seems weird to me
#
bret
the thing you would never want to lose?
#
barnabywalters
the copy which is actively in use
#
barnabywalters
e.g. the copy which gets changed when you make an edit
#
barnabywalters
at that point that copy is the canonical, “true” representation of the content, and all the other, non-canonical copies are out-of-date backups or indexes
#
tantek.com
created /ikiwiki (+356) "stub with dfn, indieweb example, see also"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
barnabywalters: ok. so in that sense "canonicalness" is the degree of "trueness" of the data.
#
cuibonobo
there's a point where it's kind of blurry though, like if you post something that goes to a cache to be worked on before ending up in your store.
brianloveswords, frzn, fr0zen and vanderwal joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /ikiwiki (+45) "search xapian"
(view diff)
#
@NZN
#indie Education #indieschool & #indieweb & #indietech communities are happening-->points toward new #Admin model #SovereignSourceAuthority
(twitter.com/_/status/490547339464286209)
#
tantek.com
edited /Branchable (+4) "linky"
(view diff)
#
tantek
barnabywalters: that's a great definition / expansion of canonical - could you use that to stub http://indiewebcamp.com/canonical ?
#
greptilian.com
edited /ikiwiki (+17) "/* See Also */ Branchable"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: there's an error at the bottom of http://indiewebcamp.com/permashortcitation that I'm not sure how to fix. "Cite error: <ref> tags exist, but no <references/> tag was found"
#
cuibonobo
seems to be related to the block quotes
#
tantek.com
edited /permashortcitation (-32) "remove ref tags because of error"
(view diff)
scor joined the channel
#
waterpigs.co.uk
created /canonical (+1296) "stubbed definition of canonical"
(view diff)
#
@benwerd
Really enjoying meeting everyone and demoing Known at #reclaimyourdomainla! #reclaimyourdomain #indieweb #escapethesilos
(twitter.com/_/status/490552801169129472)
#
@OYOink
RT @NZN: #indie Education #indieschool & #indieweb & #indietech communities are happening-->points toward new #Admin model #SovereignSource…
(twitter.com/_/status/490555313670881280)
#
barnabywalters
HASHTAG SOVEREIGN SOURCE
#
cuibonobo
ironic that the post that explains sovereign post authority is hosted on blogger :3
#
cuibonobo
*sovereign source authority
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek
aaronpk: since you're into self-recording a lot of stuff - have you seen http://www.reporter-app.com/ ? (developed by Feltron - what he used for the latest Feltron.com annual report)
#
@maxlath
RT @benwerd: My #indieweb life: how my site gives me an awesome social media archive of everything I've ever written http://werd.io/2014/my-indieweb-life-how-my-site-gives-me-an-awesome
(twitter.com/_/status/490562941109149696)
#
tantek
cuibonobo: yes that is ironic. heh.
androtest and snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /like (+31) "note IG uses ♥"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /like (+83) "add a heart as text "graphic" to the top"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /repost (+65) "add ♺ symbol as text graphic"
(view diff)
#
Loqi
[@Addiply] Reading this @benwerd Very interesting.... See https://addiply.3scale.net Plug in local-mobile ads
grantmacken joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+1013) "/* Working On */ webaction buttons in streams"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+436) "/* Working On */ combine the two repost of tweets tasks, move improve reply-context support to second spot"
(view diff)
#
tantek
ok that's enough of a braindump for now of things I've been meaning to get to
#
tantek
in particular since this past weekend's restyling efforts, I've been thinking a lot about in-stream web action buttons (only indieweb example I know of is adactio.com right-aligned links at the end of each post to favorite, retweet etc.)
#
tantek
captured some thoughts on adding in-stream web action buttons here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
#
tantek
and now that I've written that down, time to go for a run to reflect on it to see if I want to change anything when I return (before coding)
#
bret
im blocked by not having a good posting interface...but I could add them for others
#
tantek
bret - exactly - I'm prioritizing what others see on my site over my own posting "interface"
#
tantek
and I'm not letting it block me
#
tantek
bbiab
bnvk, emmak, snarfed and chrissaad joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
lol! still reading through the wiki. listing databases as an anti-pattern is a little absurd. oh boy.
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
does anyone else besides adactio show webaction buttons/links on their posts in their home page stream?
scor joined the channel
#
tantek
cuibonobo - happy that you're at least amused. :)
#
cuibonobo
indeed! :)
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: told ya
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: haha you sure did
#
tantek
hmm… I'm leaning towards use of "like" rather than the generic (but uncommon) "props", or the more strongly worded "favorite" (context: webactions verbs)
#
KartikPrabhu
still a bit confusing to me to use 'like' and 'favourite' to mean the same thing
#
cuibonobo
tantek: there's other services that name it like the icon, i.e. 'star', 'heart'
#
tantek
cuibonobo: really? could you provide specific examples? we've been trying to document them on the /like and /favorite pages
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: what is the difference to you between like and favorite? (Note that no services use both)
#
KartikPrabhu
'like' is me saying to the author 'hey I like this' v/s 'favourite' is marking it for myself... more like a bookmark
#
cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: yeah i think the intention is important. for example, people that 'favorite' things on twitter as a reminder to read later
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: I think 'fav' on twitter is used in both ways... which is why these distinctions are becoming blurred and confusing
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: agreed, fave is more ambiguous
#
KartikPrabhu
like vs bookmark is a good distinction I think
#
tantek
and ironically, "like" is more often used (people "like" things on FB/IG more than they Fave things on Twitter/FB)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: here's a good example of 'heart'-ing http://weheartit.com/
#
cuibonobo
if you look at their feeds, hovering over a post makes a giant heart appear, to mark it as a thing you like
#
KartikPrabhu
naming things after icons would make it more confusing... :P
#
tantek
going to categorize heart as an a variant of like
#
cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: yeah i wouldn't advocate for that :)
#
KartikPrabhu
I have similar confusion about repost vs reshare. I realised that I don't want to 'repost' the entire post from somewhere else... but just reshare it my friends...
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: share is meaningless
#
tantek
(in the context of these web UIs)
#
tantek
(and Android in particular)
#
KartikPrabhu
you mean it is the same as just linking?
#
tantek
worse
#
tantek
they've diluted "share" into meaning "do something"
#
tantek
like you "share" with a printer to print something
#
KartikPrabhu
oh... I see. 'Share' as a word for the UI
#
tantek
"share" is now a joke of a term in any kind of web UI
#
cuibonobo
tantek: that's an interesting perspective. reminds me of this post https://bold.pixelapse.com/minming/share-the-icon-no-one-agrees-on
#
GWG
tantek: How do you feel about the word highlight then? I want to 'highlight' someone else's work?
#
cuibonobo
as in, nobody can agree on the icon because the term itself is meaningless
#
tantek
cuibonobo: as you said, the intent is important, and ironically, the use of "share" has come to mean all intentions, and thus none of them
#
cuibonobo
i agree!
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes then... my intent is to not 'repost' but then what is the word for that... Just telling your friends, 'this is a good post. read it' ?
#
tantek.com
edited /like (+603) "Silo Examples, Variants, We Heart It, move previously to discussion"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
just saw a blog-via-Evernote and died a little inside
#
pdurbin
cuibonobo: so are you still gonna build that Evernote killer?
#
tantek
cuibonobo: I've previously written about the different clusterings/intentions of various types of "sharing" and why "share" is now meaningless: http://tantek.com/2012/152/b1/citation-ui-focus-enabling-design#action-clusters
#
tantek
and of web actions in general: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block#web-action-motivations (though at this point I still had hope about "share" which I've since given up on)
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: i don't want to kill evernote! i just want to make a thing for myself that works like Evernote but isn't tied to their format
#
pdurbin
is it an open format?
#
tantek
cuibonobo++
#
Loqi
cuibonobo has 2 karma
#
pdurbin
email killers never kill email anyway
#
cuibonobo
pdurbin: it's a kind of proprietary XML
#
@t
THIS: "... build stuff which kills your own Facebook usage before trying to kill FB." #indieweb http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1480/ (ttk.me t4QG1)
(twitter.com/_/status/340522539061231617)
#
pdurbin
oh. well at least it's a flat file. xml
#
cuibonobo
tantek: validation!!
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: I'm also interested in moving my notes from evernote to my site. Haven't quite figured out the private posts and log in bits yet
scor joined the channel
#
cuibonobo
KartikPrabhu: yeah. access control is tricky thing.
#
tantek
has never put any content into evernote
#
pdurbin
people swear by it
#
KartikPrabhu
people also swore by Orkut!
#
cuibonobo
i have a bunch of stuff in it. the primary draw for me is 1) just writing a note. no need for titles or anything else. 2) tagging. 3) search. by far the most important feature.
benwerd joined the channel
#
pdurbin
I've started using Google Keep a bit. It's nice.
erinjo joined the channel
#
Loqi
erinjo: bnvk left you a message 1 week, 5 days ago: yo, just testing out something
#
pdurbin
yesterday I found out it does OCR
#
tantek
cuibonobo: that's a very good summary
#
cuibonobo
right now i'm in an after-evernote phase where i'm dropping markdown files in a 2014 folder and using a timestamp as the title. i handle search through spotlight, but it's a little wonky
#
benwerd
waves from the Reclaim Your Domain hackathon at Pepperdine
#
tantek
hey erinjo benwerd - how's the weather in LA?
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: once you have a notes posting on your site, using markdown content should be straight forward, so that is a good first step.
#
benwerd
tantek: it's overcast, which is frankly disappointing
#
benwerd
I have a convertible for the weekend, which illustrates some kind of law or other
#
KartikPrabhu
the other day I tried to export my 'annotations' from Google Play Books and failed!
#
tantek
just updated his software on his site motivated by providing a better markup example to copy / paste into the wiki.
#
tantek.com
edited /webactions (+3302) "why, how, add explicit markup example for how to add webactions to your posts (hope that helps make more happen!), move some background at the top to a history section, been long enough. and prefer like over props"
(view diff)
#
tantek
!tell barnabywalters not sure if it was you or not complaining about "props" but I now agree and have switched it all to "like" as the generic form, e.g. on http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
#
tantek
benwerd, ironically the sun is shining here in SF
#
tantek
cuibonobo: mind adding your summary of the primary draw for evernote to an evernote stub page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Evernote
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: similarly, could you write something briefly about the problem of export of Google Play Books here? http://indiewebcamp.com/Google_Play_Books
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: I will. have some more testing to do
#
tantek
(and perhaps link to it from http://indiewebcamp.com/Google )
#
tantek
intermediate caveat results are ok to document too
#
cuibonobo
tantek: sure thing
#
tantek
encourages others to help with testing / verifying
#
KartikPrabhu
sure... will get on it soon
#
tantek
thanks cuibonobo!
wolftune joined the channel
#
tantek
just changed the /webactions on his /notes from Favorite Retweet Reply to Like Repost Reply, e.g. bottom of: http://tantek.com/2014/175/t1/pdf14-why-need-indieweb-video-slides
#
tantek
going to see how that use of more generic terminology feels
#
tantek
is thinking about replacing the use of the Twitter images as well with emoji instead, e.g. from http://fsymbols.com/emoji/
#
tantek
cuibonobo: apparently I actually documented the rant against "share" a bit more thoroughly on the wiki, with a bit of debate too! http://indiewebcamp.com/share
#
tantek.com
edited /share (+250) "add Icons section with citation"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
tantek: cool. good to know. the fact that the indiewebcamp wiki is actively edited and discussed on IRC is a major draw for me
#
tantek
using IRC and the wiki together like this has shown to be remarkably useful/productive.
#
tantek
(so much so that we have never needed, nor want, an email list)
#
pdurbin
tantek: but! the wiki is powered by a [**shudder**]... database!
#
tantek
pdurbin - indeed! and it used to depend on [**shudder**] OpenID! (Until we came up with the replacement - IndieAuth, and made it work)
#
tantek
perhaps we should replace MediaWiki with your suggestion of ikiwiki ;)
#
tantek
the process of using "old" (established/usable) tools until you've built better replacements is I believe a key part of bootstrapping
#
pdurbin
could do. then all the versioning could be in git. and anyone could clone it and have a local copy
#
tantek
yeah - that's a major appeal
#
tantek
eventually I get to "building wiki page support" for my own site: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#Indie_Wiki but until then I don't really have a concrete suggestion to use one wiki software over another. :/
#
tantek
is seriously tempted to use the Rooster emoji when linking to POSSE tweet copies, e.g. like in mockup here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
#
tantek
🐓 View on Twitter
#
tantek
I mean, it's a bird, right? ;)
#
tantek
I suppose it would only be fitting, especially since benwerd pioneered "chicken" posts. ;)
#
benwerd
highly approves
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: are you sure you want to use those emoji things... not sure they show up in every browser and having a mystery square is not good UI.UX
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: I suppose live testing will tell right? ;)
#
tantek
someone has to find out...
#
KartikPrabhu
cool! I of course recommend SVG icons! ref: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/inline-svg-icons
#
benwerd
Wait for it
#
@benwerd
🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔🐔 (🐔🐔) #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/490613388788396032)
#
benwerd
And indeed: I posted that in Firefox, but it's just empty squares for me in Chrome
#
KartikPrabhu
benwerd: shows up in FF for me but tantek'c mockup doesn't
#
cuibonobo
maybe you guys should make an indieweb font and host it on a cdn
wolftune joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
cuibonobo: no real need afaik lot of CC licensed icons out there: such as http://www.entypo.com/ which I use on my site
#
KartikPrabhu
doesn't seem to have a rooster though
tantek joined the channel
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: your post ate a *ton* of heap memory, likely due to the SVG. So SVG still seems like an impractical memory pig. Not going to touch it.
#
tantek
*viewing your post in a browser
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: hmmm how do I diagnose that?
#
KartikPrabhu
strange since that post has no actual JS running on it except marginalia.js
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: use of SVG causes all sorts of additional memory structures to be created for rendering etc.
#
tantek
benwerd was that an emoji note POSSEd to Twitter? Or a new chicken post variant?
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: oh I see... did not know of that problem. in that case my indieweb post must be using monstrous amounts as all the illustrations are SVG too
#
benwerd
tantek: an emoji note, but I might upgrade my chicken plugin finally ;)
#
tantek
pdurbin which browser?
#
pdurbin
firefox and chrome
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: how did you see the heap memory usage?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: "Activity Monitor" app
#
KartikPrabhu
ok I'll try to fix this if possible
#
tantek
pdurbin: which OS?
#
pdurbin
fedora 20
#
jenmontes.com
created /Evernote (+921) "Overview of Evernote"
(view diff)
#
tantek
pdurbin - good to know. ok, so no rooster emoji in order to be nicer to Linux users.
#
pdurbin
tantek: should I go try in safari? my wife has an imac
#
tantek
pdurbin: likely a platform font issue
#
tantek
I bet it works in Safari on imac
#
pdurbin
no dice. oh well
#
tantek
really? WFM Safari 6.1.5 on OSX 10.7.5
#
tantek
do *any* of those emoji work on any browser on Fedora 20?
#
pdurbin
(back on linux) "like" and "repost" look fine but "reply" is unreadable
#
tantek
how about 🔁 and ↩
#
bret
tantek getting missing chars in windows 7
#
tantek
bret for which?
#
bret
ill get you a screen
#
bret
one sec
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (-3) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ use arrow reply emoji ↩"
(view diff)
#
pdurbin
tantek: looking at http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-07-19/line/1405807819 the first is unreadable but the second is fine
#
tantek
ok good to know so now all three like repost reply should work for you pdurbin: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#webaction_buttons_in_streams
#
pdurbin
yes. all better
#
pdurbin
tantek: I can't read the icon next to this though: 🐓 View (Conversation) on Twitter
#
tantek
bret - that's just the one rooster then, that's fine
#
bret
ah ok
#
bret
wasnt sure
#
tantek
ok got it - no Rooster on Linux or Windows
#
bret
i like the mock up btw tantek++ :)
#
tantek
bret - from your screenshot though, the Like Repost and Reply emoji work fine
#
bret
other than fonts looking like crap on windoes, yes they work
#
bret
windows*
#
tantek
likes text mockups
#
tantek
searches for wikipedia bird unicode and finds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony_punctuation
#
tantek
\(*)>
#
cuibonobo
🐦
#
tantek
bret, pdurbin can you see that ^^^ 🐦🐦🐦
#
cuibonobo
some platforms may not have anything defined for some unicode blocks
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+99) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ note rooster, bird emoji not visible in Linux nor Windows 7"
(view diff)
#
cuibonobo
which now makes me curious about unicode block adoption among platforms
#
tantek
or the platform may support the unicode blocks, but not have any default fonts for rendering those code points
#
bret
I saw \(*)> :)
#
pdurbin
bret: yeah, me too
#
pdurbin
was riveted
#
tantek
bret, I meant the 🐦 from cuibonobo
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+115) "talk bubble also not visible on Linux (fedora 20), but is visible on windows"
(view diff)
#
bret
er.mm wel this irc client does not see it let me check a different one
salanto joined the channel
#
bret
nope
erinjo, wolftune, vanderwal and awolf joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+291) "/* Working On */ so twitter will get a blue t instead"
(view diff)
#
benwerd
Digital lead at a university pointing at a student's own website and domain: "we want this to be the future of the learning management system".
#
kylewm
seeing the same thing as Fedora 20 on Ubuntu 14.04, fwiw
#
KartikPrabhu
benwed: URL... ?
#
tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+43) "/* webaction buttons in streams */ a little font-family tweak"
(view diff)
#
tantek
bret was it you that asked about why have a URL: [ … ] field / input / UI in notes?
#
tantek
when the URL is already in the address bar?
#
tantek
another reason: browser UIs where the address bar is not (easily) accessible, e.g. mobile, or kiosk mode etc., and not having to scan back up to the top of the window for it either.
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: that was me
#
tantek
ah, thanks KartikPrabhu
#
KartikPrabhu
mobile browser UI is a good reason :)
#
tantek.com
edited /citation (+637) "start FAQ with Why a URL UI when address bar has it"
(view diff)
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: isn't the 'not having to scroll' not relevant since on desktops the address bar is always present at the top, while in mobile you might have to scroll a little bit but the address is hidden per the first argument... So the second argument does not add anything really?
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: I didn't say scroll
#
KartikPrabhu
well or 'scan back'
#
KartikPrabhu
in any case that captures the argument well
#
bret
tantek, errrmmm maybe, but not recently
#
bret
i like it. although most url fields designed for sharing I avoid since its usually a disgustingly long tracking url... definately not the case with your layout though :)
#
bret
i would say that the "share this url:..." pattern can be really great, but often misused/abused by darkpatternists
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: the difference is that "scan" literally means what your eyes are doing, the muscle movement of your eyes scanning up - nothing do with with scrolling.
#
tantek.com
edited /citation (+44) "/* Why a URL UI when address bar has it */ link scan to specific meaning of eye-tracking"
(view diff)
awolf joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah fair enough
chrissaad joined the channel