#indiewebcamp 2014-05-14

2014-05-14 UTC
tantek, KartikPrabhu, alistair, caseorganic, circ-user-G6t2q, jedahan, snarfed and gRegor` joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:one-day-event/doc (+684) "/* Blank Template */"
(view diff)
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:one-day-event/doc (+49) "/* Parameters */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:one-day-event/doc (+2) "/* An event with UTC offset */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /Events (+0) "move indie box meetup"
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gRegor`
Woo, nice work snarfed.
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gRegor`
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 20 karma
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@t
> @sciencehackday moved from .com to http://t.co/q77BQMYpVP! Updated my links (as the #indieweb can). You should too! (ttk.me t4W32)
(twitter.com/_/status/466411026880425986)
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tantek.com
edited /why (+115) "/* More robust */ add another example of fixing links when they break"
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snarfed
thanks gRegor`!
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GWG
Good evening.
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bret
do I use rel="me" for an organization web page pointing to its profile page on meetup or twitter?
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GWG
That might be rel="publisher" But I'm not an expert. I'm often wrong
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kylewm
!tell tantek my 2c about parsing mf2 datetimes: the parser pretty much needs to use regex (or equivalent) to recognize a time vs. date vs. datetime. it'd be nice then if parsers used that to produce more uniform output (e.g., choose T xor space for the separator, colon or no-colon for the timezone). would make handling the parsed document much simpler
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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GWG
kylewm: I may be using your likeness in more examples.
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kylewm
GWG: good thing i'm so pretty
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GWG
kylewm: The test post I'm styling happens to be one you send some tests to.
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tantek
kylewm - interesting, so a canonicalization of the date time (timezone)
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Loqi
tantek: kylewm left you a message 2 minutes ago: my 2c about parsing mf2 datetimes: the parser pretty much needs to use regex (or equivalent) to recognize a time vs. date vs. datetime. it'd be nice then if parsers used that to produce more uniform output (e.g., choose T xor space for the separator, colon or no-colon for the timezone). would make handling the parsed document much simpler
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kylewm
oops sorry for Loqiing you, i was looking for you in the t's instead of at the top of the list
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kylewm
and yep, to the extent possible that would be awesome. still makes sense to leave off seconds or the timezone (or the time altogether) if they're not included in the original
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tantek
kylewm it still makes sense to !tell people if they haven't been active recently
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tantek
kylewm - interesting, I think that would be useful yes, and with such details too
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tantek
kylewm - could you add that as a suggestion here? http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming (creating a new subsection at the top works)
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kylewm
happy to!
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KevinMarks
Bret rel-me is a bit tricky fit organizations. It's OK as long as people don't rel me to them as well, which gets all kinds of broken
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KevinMarks
There have been suggestions for membership rels, not sure how much adoption
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kylewm
gRegor`: did you come to any conclusions about the implied date for dt-end? it seems odd to me to have special-case handling for that one mf2 property
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gRegor`
kylewm: You're going to make a regex for all those possible date-time mf2?
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gRegor`
(re: your earlier chat)
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gRegor`
I haven't thought about it. I honestly have only a high level understanding of microformats. I don't know all the ins and outs of what's proper or not for implied values
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gRegor`
I was just going by the mf2 wiki as the authoritative source, and trying to remove the duplication of the event date per tantek's feedback
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kylewm
the former I lifted more or less directly from php-mf2
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gRegor`
I did clone php-mf2 to see about making the implied dt-end work, but haven't gotten further on that.
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kylewm
so my understanding is that mf2 is all about generalizing microformats to be this super small set of rules that could handle any arbitrary property names
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kylewm
as opposed to e.g., hCalendar which can use domain-specific knowledge to say dtend is this and dtstart is that
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gRegor`
Not sure I understand the distinction. hCalendar is a microformat... ?
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kylewm
which is microformats1, and i'm not exactly sure how much it applies to mf2
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kylewm
maybe a better discussion for #microformats?
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kylewm
or for later if you've better things to do
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tantek
yes -> #microformats :)
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tantek
is off to dinner. ttyl!
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gRegor`
http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property (mf2) goes back to the value-class-pattern, so I think it's basically the same.
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gRegor`
It's getting late here so my brain won't work so well. :)
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GWG
gRegor`: What have you been working on?
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gRegor`
Tonight? Minecraft. :)
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GWG
gRegor`: I meant projects?
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gRegor`
More generally, http://indiewebcamp.com/Template:one-day-event and making sure the microformats are as minimal as possible (have to work around some MediaWiki limitations with templates)
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gRegor`
I think it's just about done, though. I think we found a problem in the mf2 parsing not picking up the implied date from the dt-start
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GWG
What will you do next?
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gRegor`
It will make the /events page much more manageable and better looking.
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gRegor`
I'm always tweaking my webmention stuff. Adding admin functionality, trying to join together comments and likes from the same person
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gRegor`
Outside of that, no specific plans
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gRegor`
Going to Portland IWC
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GWG
gRegor`: That last one...what would that look like?
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gRegor`
Example: http://gregorlove.com/2014/01/1178/#w9 under Sheryl's comment would be slightly smaller, and probably gray text "liked on Facebook". If you scroll further down, you'll see the separate webmention for her FB like.
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GWG
So you support local commenting.
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gRegor`
I just made a quick mockup and screencapped my idea: http://snag.gy/IFKh2.jpg
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gRegor`
Yeah, I've used Nucleus CMS for over a decade now and it's always had local comments.
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GWG
So, like that.
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kylewm
aaronpk: i'm looking at php-comments, it returns "published" as a string. do you parse it to a DateTime after that?
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gRegor`
And obviously if it was liked multiple places, it would say "liked on Facebook, Twitter" and so on.
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gRegor`
I don't mind separate webmentions for now, but I also am not a big fan of the facepiles, so this is my goal
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GWG
gRegor`: Oh? Being as I'm developing a Facepile...what doesn't appeal?
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gRegor`
Almost midnight here, I'm heading to bed. Hit me up about that another time, though. :) Mostly just personal preference for my site.
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GWG
gRegor`: I'm curious. Want to improve my work.
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@vrypan
@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466462544790835200)
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@vrypan
.@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466462668581527554)
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@kyle_wm
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466463641739747328)
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@benwerd
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466464327550386177)
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@fdevillamil
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466464538028945408)
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@myleejoseph
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466465454832504833)
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@graffic
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466465825244086272)
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@haverholm
RT @vrypan: .@withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466467640568193027)
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@erinjo
+1000 RT @vrypan: @withknown is a publishing platform for everyone. It's part of the #indieweb movement. Definitely worth giving a try.
(twitter.com/_/status/466470363699118080)
paulcp, tilgovi, KevinMarks, eschnou, Kopfstein, smagali, alistair, Sebastien-L, friedcell, krendil, wagle, ttepasse, pfefferle, tobiastom, jsilvestre, scor, jonnybarnes, bnvk, barnabywalters and pfefferle_ joined the channel
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GWG
Hello, Mr. pfefferle
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GWG
Big fan of your work.
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pfefferle
GWG thanks a lot :)
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GWG
pfefferle: Well, as a Wordpress user, I've found your plugins essential for me not having to try to code my own.
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pfefferle
I am glad you like them! let me know if you miss some features.
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GWG
pfefferle: I have. I'm the one who sent you the comment that prompted you to add the hook for the response code.
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pfefferle
aaaaahhh ok :)
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GWG
pfefferle: Right now, I wrote a plugin to take over the comment template and add mf2 markup, but also redraw the Webmentions as a Facepile using the semantic linkback meta the plugin adds.
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pfefferle
nice! have you released it on github?
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GWG
pfefferle: Not yet. I set up a github account, and there is one thing I want to look at before I upload it. Namely I want to take one more shot at a CSS stylesheet that will best inherit the theme.
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GWG
pfefferle: Also I had some naming issues.
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GWG
I tentatively called it "Semantic Comments" referring to its dependency on the Semantic Linkback plugin, but I'm not sure I like the name.
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GWG
That's not an issue so much though
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GWG
You can see it on my theming test site though
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GWG
A different version of the code is running on my primary site.
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pfefferle
I like the facepile part!
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GWG
pfefferle: That is the primary effect of the plugin. But to do it, I had to take over the entire comment template.
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GWG
pfefferle: I have. I started with looking at it.
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GWG
His requires the genesis framework
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pfefferle
I also made some changes to the comment-html on my theme… perhaps it helps… or maybe you have some improvment ideas for my code https://github.com/pfefferle/SemPress/blob/master/sempress/functions.php#L363
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GWG
pfefferle: I started my project working on a theme based on _s, the Wordpress starter theme.
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GWG
I forked a version of it that had the mf2 markup.
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GWG
Then I built a theme on top of it.
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GWG
Then, I decided to go back and start pulling out pieces of my theme and putting them into plugins.
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GWG
Like the Facepile code
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GWG
So, my site is running the same code, but it is built into the theme. I'll be going back and removing it from the theme and using the plugin as well.
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pfefferle
that’s kind of the same process we tried with https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-uf2
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pfefferle
extracting all the stuff i used in my theme into a seperate plugin
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GWG
Wordpress-uf2 tries to add the classes and such via hooks.
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GWG
I tried it on 2014 though, it made it render oddly for some reason.
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GWG
pfefferle: I've looked through your whole catalog.
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GWG
But, for me, I was looking at people's comments on theme design, and there was a lot of talk that certain features should be in plugins so they could be incorporated into multiple themes.
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GWG
So, I looked at any feature I could have as a theme dependency, but could move out.
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pfefferle
yes, there might be some glitches because the hooks are called on different places (like feeds or in the admin backend) and that might cause some problems
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GWG
There is one more I'll be looking at separating.
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GWG
It generates rel-syndication links
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pfefferle
depending on webmentions?
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GWG
You can see it in the metadata on this post.
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GWG
pfefferle: Right now, it adds post meta for the URLs.
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pfefferle
but what are you using for syndications?
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GWG
pfefferle: The reason I contacted you about the Bridgy response code is that I wanted to take the response URL and store it in the post meta fields I created.
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GWG
pfefferle: A combination of Bridgy and a plugin called SNAP.
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GWG
SNAP by Nextscripts stores the ID of the syndicated post, but not the URL, which you'd have to derive.
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GWG
There is a rel-syndication plugin that extracts the same data from Mailchimp's Social plugin
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pfefferle
yes, i know
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GWG
I figured that the best thing to do is to support all of the major plugins by extracting the data from them and putting it into the same post meta field.
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pfefferle
yes, sounds good… the less you have to parse in realtime, the better...
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GWG
Not sure when I'll get to do everything I am planning. The Facepile code will be up soon. I just ripped it out of the theme and into a plugin on Friday.
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pfefferle
I am curious! drop me a note when you release something!
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GWG
pfefferle: Will do.
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pfefferle
thanks :)
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GWG
The other thing, and I know you have a plugin for it, is webactions.
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pfefferle
yes, feel free to add some more, if you miss some!
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GWG
I figured, if I'm taking over the comment section of Wordpress to do the Facepiles, what else can I stick in.
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GWG
I figured I might as well look at adding webactions to the plugin I'm working on.
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pfefferle
or add them directly
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pfefferle
that’s even better
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pfefferle
I found only two places atm
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pfefferle
the comment link and the comment form
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pfefferle
tried to add a share action to the jetpack plugin but the doesn’t let me...
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GWG
pfefferle: Since my plugin completely replaces the comments.php with my own version...adding webactions in fits.
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GWG
That will likely be after I release it to github.
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GWG
Hopefully my coding skills are up to the task.
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pfefferle
I am sure they are!
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pfefferle
And ask if I can help you with something!
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GWG
I was trying to figure out if I wanted to add local 'likes'.
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GWG
In addition to ones coming through Webmentions
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GWG
Not sure if you have a thought about that.
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GWG
I was looking at your webmention code, which uses comment type "webmention" and thinking if I did, I could create a 'like' type and use the same Facepile code to render it
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pfefferle
never really thought about that before
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pfefferle
yes, sure… but keep in mind that not every theme supports custom comment_types
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pfefferle
that’s why i added the possibility to change that
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pfefferle
but it shouldn’t be a problem if you only use them for the facepile section
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GWG
And if rendering if done by my code
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luxagraf
hey all, I'm the process of writing up my thoughts on moving from schema.org microdata to microformats
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luxagraf
wanted to ask though, technically there's no reason you couldn't use both right?
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luxagraf
Other than google says it's crawlers might get confused
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barnabywalters
luxagraf: ha ha really? where do they say that?
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barnabywalters
that sounds ridiculous
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barnabywalters
technically there’s no reason you can’t use both
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luxagraf
right? I'm trying to find the tab with an attribution hang on
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pfefferle
there is no reason… I use both for a longer time and it seems there are no problems with it
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luxagraf
hmm, maybe I dreamed that, can't find a source now
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luxagraf
pfefferle: good to know
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luxagraf
hmm, closest thing I can find is that google recommends "you should pick one markup standard and use it consistently across the page" https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/1093493#technical
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luxagraf
Interestingly that same page also says Google will ignore hidden content even if it uses value-title
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pfefferle
i think with hidden content they mean ”ždisplay: none“ stuff
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luxagraf
pfefferle: right, but my understanding what that the value-title pattern is supposed to overcome that
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luxagraf
google's rich snippets tool also seems to ignore microformats in <data> tags
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barnabywalters
I finally have a reason to implement indieweb events! http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4W4Dvv/
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barnabywalters
but a note will have to do on such short notice
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barnabywalters
hopefully bridgy will manage to backfeed RSVPs successfully
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pfefferle
that might be… the parser is not that new… it also ignores all mf2 formats
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luxagraf
pfefferle: yeah I dropped in the v1 syntax as well. now thinking I might revert to v2 only, but with all the old microdata as well just for google/bing/etc
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tbrun
NICK tbrun
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pfefferle
luxagraf sounds good
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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aaronpk
kylewm: yes to your earlier question, I usually return dates as full iso8601 strings and then parse them into a datetime object when I need to
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kylewm
aaronpk: ok thanks, how hard do you have to work to parse it? (I'm asking because of http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing-brainstorming#Canonicalization_of_datetime_output)
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@CallMeAlien
RT @t: speaking on #indieweb at Personal Democracy Forum #pdf14 NYC 2014-06-05! http://personaldemocracy.com/product/personal-democracy-forum-2014-registration Code: SPEAKER3DE7CE1F (ttk.me t4W21)
(twitter.com/_/status/466598689445019649)
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aaronpk
kylewm: by "parse" I just mean pass off to the DateTime class and it handles it
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kylewm
ah, that's what i wondered. php must be more forgiving than python's strptime
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barnabywalters
!tell kylewm yep, new Datetime($string) will try very hard to parse what you pass it. Python’s equivalent is http://labix.org/python-dateutil#head-c0e81a473b647dfa787dc11e8c69557ec2c3ecd2
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters
!tell snarfed I posted an event to facebook linking <—> with rel-syndication from an h-event on my site, do I have to do anything special to get Bridgy to backfeed RSVPs?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: the event needs to be public
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: it is
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aaronpk
I've always put a link back to my canonical post as the last thing in the event's description, i'm not sure if the new posse-post-discovery code finds facebook stuff too
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: okay — I added the URL to the end of the description, so hopefully it’ll work
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barnabywalters
it’s had one RSVP but no backfeed, so I’m wondering if I did something wrong :)
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barnabywalters
tgbrun: I just replied to that article from my site — hopefully it’ll show up in your moderation queue :)
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tgbrun
<barnabywalters> Got the comment back,it is good to see that the linkback works as advertised!
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barnabywalters
tgbrun: yay!
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Loqi
yay!
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tgbrun
I did not realize that the twitter post would get here so quickly, what a community!
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@kevinmarks
@briankardell @poulpita I mean that from their names you link to their twitter accounts. Link their personal websites instead #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/466609750491557888)
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@Ladyfire_News
Integrity Investor seek #genshibox #CraigAnthonyPerkins #tech #seedinvesting #startups #angelinvesting @indiewebcamp
(twitter.com/_/status/466615291049291777)
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barnabywalters
^^^ what does that even mean
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aaronpk
good question
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tantek
Genshibox is like another indiebox I think.
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@Ladyfire_News
get the https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/genshi-box-personal-social-networking-appliance to people with the need for #Internetaccess but without the means #tech #indieweb #isp #opensource
(twitter.com/_/status/466618241406599168)
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Loqi
kylewm: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour, 19 minutes ago: yep, new Datetime($string) will try very hard to parse what you pass it. Python’s equivalent is http://labix.org/python-dateutil#head-c0e81a473b647dfa787dc11e8c69557ec2c3ecd2
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Loqi
snarfed: barnabywalters left you a message 1 hour, 35 minutes ago: I posted an event to facebook linking <—> with rel-syndication from an h-event on my site, do I have to do anything special to get Bridgy to backfeed RSVPs?
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snarfed
barnabywalters: i'll take a look
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KevinMarks
I'm reading archives, so some delayed responses coming up
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tantek
gets the popcorn.
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KevinMarks
Which is a scientist calling for self-dogfooding
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KevinMarks
(still need a better name for that)
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aaronpk
eating your own ice cream
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aaronpk
or eyoic for short
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aaronpk
cause that's pronouncable
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KevinMarks
That was what I was getting at with Dave Singer and w3c
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tantek
self-taste-testing?
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kylewm
isn't the whole point of "dogfood" that it's supposed to be gross? you shouldn't give your users dogfood while you eat people food.
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snarfed
joins tantek
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kylewm
i have always liked it since Steve Yegge's accidentally public rant about google's platform
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KevinMarks
Right, but by the time you get to self-dogfooding it becomes very opaque - the metaphor takes too much explaining
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kylewm
fair enough, i understand the rationale for adding self- but it does seem redundant
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KevinMarks
Scratch your own itch is the competing meme
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tantek
KevinMarks - they're not quite the same
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tantek
in fact they're totally different
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tantek
how are they competing? they're complementary
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tantek
"Scratch your own itch" -> how you prioritize. Answers the question: What should I work on next?
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snarfed
!tell barnabywalters funny. i added the fb event oauth scopes after you signed up, so your bridgy access token doesn't include them. if you re-signup for bridgy, it should start backfeeding the rsvps
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
"selfdogfood" -> answers the question: Is what I have built now of any value to anyone?
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tantek
"Scratch your own itch" -> figure out what food to make/cook next
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snarfed
tantek++
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Loqi
tantek has 41 karma
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aaronpk
I still don't like the negative connotations of dogfood
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tantek
"selfdogfood" -> eat the food I made/cooked and see if it's good enough at least for me.
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tantek
it's more like selfpotluck
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kylewm
I don't like the lactose tolerant connotations of icecream ;)
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aaronpk
actually "potluck" is a great term
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aaronpk
because you wouldn't bring food to a potluck that you wouldn't eat yourself
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KevinMarks
that's why I said competing. In startup circles there is an ongoing "build something that solves a problem you have" exhortation
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snarfed
the one thing i'll say in defense of self dogfood is that it's by far the best known and accepted term
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snarfed
that's probably much more valuable than any (lightly) negative connotations
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snarfed
immediately regrets joining the debate
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KevinMarks
Yes you would aaronpk. Lots of people bring cookies to Potlucks that they would never eat
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KevinMarks
Maybe my parents with teenage children Potlucks are different?
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KevinMarks
Stone soup is the other metaphor there maybe?
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tantek
KevinMarks: which "startup circles" are these? I keep hearing about "build an app to get all of someone's friends to join then flip it"
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tantek
snarfed++
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Loqi
snarfed has 21 karma
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tantek
KevinMarks: that's a good point. Some use potlucks (especially picnics) as an anonymous dumping ground of food they don't want.
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tantek
Stone soup is even less appealing than selfdogfood
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tantek
and frankly, with the story behind stone soup - that's more of a monoculture reference
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tantek
turns out, stone soup is actually a *bad thing*
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tantek
(getting everyone to contribute to one big pot for everyone)
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tantek
per all the experience with monoculture
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tantek
might be time to document some of this "controversy" on the /selfdogfood page
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KevinMarks
Stone soup is a story about being a free rider that pretends to solve a collective action problem
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tantek
KevinMarks, yeah, plenty of anti-patterns in that story
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KevinMarks
Oops, missed my stop
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gRegor`
selfpotluck++
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Loqi
selfpotluck has 1 karma
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@arielwaldman
RT @t: > @sciencehackday moved from .com to http://t.co/q77BQMYpVP! Updated my links (as the #indieweb can). You should too! (ttk.me t4W32)
(twitter.com/_/status/466650414675677184)
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@sciencehackday
RT @t: > @sciencehackday moved from .com to http://t.co/q77BQMYpVP! Updated my links (as the #indieweb can). You should too! (ttk.me t4W32)
(twitter.com/_/status/466650662508724224)
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@blackibiza
RT @t: > @sciencehackday moved from .com to http://t.co/q77BQMYpVP! Updated my links (as the #indieweb can). You should too! (ttk.me t4W32)
(twitter.com/_/status/466652027339436033)
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tantek-ipod
Random
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@CoderDojoVA
#indieweb about teaching people to #selfprovision data+communication capabilities.#Reclaim the same.#Fredx skill building underway+growing..
(twitter.com/_/status/466660383479316480)
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bnvk
aaronpk: plz subscribe me to the mailing list :)
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aaronpk
bnvk: done! will be sent on friday!
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Loqi
does a happy dance!
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ben_thatmustbeme
mailing list?
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ben_thatmustbeme
yeah, i'd like to be in on that
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aaronpk
cool, give me an email address to add!
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ben_thatmustbeme
ben@thatmustbe.me
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ben_thatmustbeme
difficult to guess
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aaronpk
added!
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bret
lol selfpotluck
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bret
bringing something to a potluck and eating your own food
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brainTrain
too hot to type
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ben_thatmustbeme
why thank you, but i don't know how you can see me
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brainTrain
I've been internetting for a while. You get to the point where you just know
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brainTrain
it's the vibrations that come off of the screen or something :p
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tgbrun
quit:
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@briankardell
@kevinmarks I have updated the 3 I know (and linked to @BoazSender's post just now)... Thanks for noticing that <3 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/466704492130365440)
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aaronpk
!tell tantek getting 502 bad gateway from http://cassisproject.com/
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@Ladyfire_News
@billmaher check out our project Bill #indieweb friend https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/genshi-box-personal-social-networking-appliance #freeInternetforall #InternetPrivacy Help us with our project
(twitter.com/_/status/466723067834937344)
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@encycl
Sad to say I'll have to find a replacement for my <3 browser @firefox. The decision to add @Adobe's DRM code is wrong. #FAIF #OwnYourData
(twitter.com/_/status/466727495429914624)
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jedahan
so...anyone else getting a novena? I feel like indiewebfolk who are interested in free hardware would like the platform :)
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pauloppenheim
is the internet not bothering to *read* the mozilla DRM note?
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pdurbin
what note?
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pauloppenheim
how it works
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pauloppenheim
and that it's optional
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pauloppenheim
and that they may have finally figured out proper sandboxing? ;)
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pdurbin
hmm. thanks