#indiewebcamp 2014-05-09

2014-05-09 UTC
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tantek any software that was vulnerable but which has been patched AND you've already updated your install thereof (or your service provider has)
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tantek hmmm… I should add that meta to the page
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aaronpk i was about to say
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tantek.com edited /Heartbleed (+384) "encouragements to add more services and software" (view diff)
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barnabywalters has finally arrived at a sane abstraction for the indieauth client/server library — example setup code: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/70d290c3e738c713fa55
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aaronpk barnabywalters: what server framework is that in?
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barnabywalters the key was to make the separation between client code (implementing a micropub app) and server code (implementing a micropub endpoint) very clear, whilst allowing them to be mixed
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I use silex for all my PHP projects now: https://gist.github.com/barnabywalters/70d290c3e738c713fa55
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tantek.com edited /Heartbleed (+472) "vulnerability since, This page is for..." (view diff)
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barnabywalters it is the most concise, predictable, bare-bones yet extendable HTTP server abstraction I have ever used
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aaronpk hm i may have to take a look at that then
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tantek.com edited /Heartbleed (+49) "citation for vulnerability widespread" (view diff)
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barnabywalters provided you avoid twig and “service providers” :)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:one-day-event (+1321) "Draft" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: oops, sorry that URL should have been http://silex.sensiolabs.org/ not my gist again :)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-355) "Basic templatizing" (view diff)
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tantek posts to LJ
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tantek dear silos, you will be used to document your threats to break permalinks: http://tantek.livejournal.com/830.html
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+16) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com created /Template:one-day-event/doc (+41) "Created page with "This template is still under development."" (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+29) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+13) (view diff)
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kbs google search has [to some extent] turned the web into a content addressable system - wonder if this might somehow evolve into a less clumsy way to point to content, than permalinks
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-6) (view diff)
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snarfed kbs: yup. big common use case
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+18) (view diff)
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snarfed there's an interesting distinction btw web searches where you 1) already know the exact page you want, and you're just trying to find it, vs 2) you want to find something but don't yet know which page(s) it's on
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+2) (view diff)
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snarfed #1 are called "navigational" queries, and they're huge. usually in the same rough neighborhood as #2 (i think informational queries? forgot the term) in terms of volume
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snarfed at least on google
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kbs snarfed: *nod* yep - I see what you mean, and an interesting point
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snarfed blew my mind me when i first heard that
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KartikPrabhu I still use permalinks to share stuff with my friends... a lot
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kbs The relative volume of #1 and #2 is pretty comparable? yea, didn't know that - that's food for thought indeed :) hm...
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kbs has also generally been attached to his content than their actual location(s) - much of which is also not public
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snarfed metrics on high level search types by volume are really eye opening
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snarfed you wouldn't believe how many people search google for "yahoo.com"
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snarfed or "ebay.com"
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snarfed literally
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snarfed and then click on the first result to go to ebay
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snarfed that's just how they learned to get there
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snarfed massive volume of those queries alone, where the search is literally just a domain, and then the user clicks to go to that domain
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: that is what happened when we had a competition amongst two of our professors to see who can make a FB account the fastest. One of them searched for facebook on Google ;)
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snarfed ahahaha
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: but i'm guessing they searched for facebook, not facebook.com, at least?
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KartikPrabhu hmm must review video to ascertain :P
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kbs heh. [I've also typo'ed domains into the search box a few times, when I meant to type it in the location box]
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snarfed kbs: true! but these people usually navigate to google.com, then type the domain into the search box
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snarfed different, uh, demographic :P
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kbs :) not surprised - I know how my friend's parents use 'the web' - a very carefully memorized sequence of actions to get to a forum page/email etc....
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: "facebook" in the Google search bar in IE
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snarfed ok. they get some credit then. at least two levels up from facebook.com in the google front page text box :P
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kbs idly tries a few content-as-permalink queries
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kylewm kbs: http://www.google.com/search?q=python+requests+documentation&btnI
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kbs kylewm: nice :)
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kylewm ha
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kylewm i should really learn to bookmark things
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Loqi yea
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: use your webste for that. Like adactio publishes "Links" ;)
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kbs I was tryig some random ones from Loqi 's twitter things here. - https://www.google.com/search?q=%22Respect+uses+XDI+as+a+transmission+protocol%22&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gbv=1&sei=LSZsU77iB47IoASu-ICwCA&btnI - not quite right yet I guess.
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Loqi who, me?
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KartikPrabhu tantek is on a 'stub with criticism' tear!
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jgee 19:54:57 Loqi ╡ [[Skype]] N http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/inde │ inimino
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tantek When services do stupid shit and email me about it, I'm gonna out them with public documentation. It's a coping mechanism for receiving faceless impersonal emails.
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tantek jgee?!?
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jgee sorry, wrong window.
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tantek lol
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jgee Getting back into irc after what seems like decades
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tantek welcome jgee!
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kylewm KartikPrabhu: having a section of links on my website feels very 90s (not in a bad way)
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KartikPrabhu 90s++
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Loqi 90s has 1 karma
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jgee Just listened to Amber Case's interview on "In Beta", and trying some of this out
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kylewm more and more i am wanting a list of all the things that have 1 or -1 karmas
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KartikPrabhu aside: one of the more useless headlines I've ever read "University to launch $4.5 billion campaign to support ambitious work"
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kbs (speaking of my idle procrastination https://www.google.com/search?q=site:indiewebcamp.com/irc+%22has+1+karma%22 :)
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kylewm that's great, jgee
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kylewm I listened to that podcast too, really good
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jgee kylewm: it was really.. motivating, both about the reason behind these ideas and the steps to put them into motion
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kylewm kbs: lol, i have a feeling this list would be pretty funny without context
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+52) (view diff)
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kbs kylewm: heh, yeah - think you're right :) I wonder how it handles zeros....
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kbs appspotdomains++
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Loqi appspotdomains has 0 karma
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kbs ah well - unsurprising I guess :)
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kylewm oh that's weird! the other day, it went from -1 to +1
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kbs (and I should stop trolling the bot)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+5) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-10) (view diff)
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kylewm I like that adact.io splits his posts up by content (journal/links/articles) rather than format (notes/articles/likes/replies/reposts)
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kylewm my having separate categories for notes and replies feels a little like when i was a kid and created C:\data\jpg and C:\data\gif
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kylewm instead of organizing pictures by what was on them
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gRegor` {{{{{wordpress-templates|fun}}}}}
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kbs heh. Using google to do string-based 'I feel lucky' searches feels a lot like "fragmentions for the web"
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+21) (view diff)
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jgee kylewm: See Dave Winer's blog for the opposite approach: both long articles and short tweet-like links together in a single list
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-72) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+6) (view diff)
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gRegor` Can someone with better mf2 experience tell me if it's necessary to markup times like this? <time class="value">2014-05-07</time> at <time class="value">18:30</time> e.g. on the HWC meetup pages.
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gRegor` I guess it implied the first <time> will be the date, the second will be the hour+minute?
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gRegor` s/implied/implies
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Loqi gRegor` meant to say: I guess it implies the first <time> will be the date, the second will be the hour+minute?
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kylewm gRegor`: I think it is necessary, in order to crop out the "at" and "local time"
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gRegor` Ah, right.
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kylewm tantek marks posts up on his site the same way
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gRegor` Alternately I could do something like on my site, <time class="dt-start dtstart" datetime="2014-05-01T21:50:33-05:00">May 1, 2014 9:50pm CDT</time>
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gRegor` And the display text could say whatever at that point... afaik
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kylewm that is what i do too
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gRegor` But that also requires stricter input on event datetime
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gRegor` (this is for the one-day-event template on the wiki)
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gRegor` I shall experiment
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@FreeSiteReport http://www.indieweb.biz/ website estimations and traffic net worth $895 http://www.Freewebsitereport.org/www.indieweb.biz (twitter.com/_/status/464581063327899648)
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tantek hey gRegor` saw that you had some uf2 datetime qs
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tantek the existing markup on the wiki is somewhere from minimal to backward compat to overkill ;)
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tantek.com created /IndieBox (+23) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /indiebox (+23) "r" (view diff)
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@aaronpk Just lost all the contacts from my iPhone, no idea why. Time to host my own CardDAV server? #ownyourdata (http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/05/08/2/ownyourdata) (twitter.com/_/status/464592076848771074)
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tantek.com created /Indie_Box (+317) "stub with dfn, presentation" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk oh no :(
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tantek please tell me you had a backup on your computer
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tantek or was it all "just" in iCloud?
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aaronpk well they're all still in icloud
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aaronpk and some on the exchange server
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aaronpk the other problem is i think there's a bunch in exchange that shouldn't be
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aaronpk (esri's exchange server)
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aaronpk i'm also somewhat scared to set up owncloud
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j12t if you are scared to set up owncloud, shouldn’t you be an indie box user? ;-)
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j12t single command install …
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j12t single command upgrade to whatever the next version will be …
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aaronpk it's not the setup that scares me, it's maintaining another system
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j12t I know, which is why indie box includes what we call (pardon the slan) auto-administration
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j12t no work for you
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j12t s/slan/slang/
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tantek j12t - what's the "home music and video serving" features of the current Indie Box?
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tantek and on a more pedantic note, why "Indie Box" instead of "IndieBox" ?
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j12t I thought you hated inter caps
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tantek j12t only when programming ;)
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j12t where are you quoting that from?
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tantek j12t - sorry those are air quotes ;)
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j12t it’s “indie music” not “IndieMusic”, but otherwise no strong preference either way
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tantek see now here's where we run into a naming collision ;)
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j12t so I’d love to have some media apps that use the HDMI output that is on the box
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tantek http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indie_music
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j12t currently we haven’t packaged any, and don’t have time
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tantek j12t so that's basically what I'm wondering about
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tantek actually two things
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j12t but if you’d like to package one and upload to app store, it will just work!
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tantek one - the "box" that has HDMI output that can be used to send video to a projector
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tantek two - the "box" that has massive fast storage and acts as a server of the content
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j12t yes
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+56) (view diff)
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tantek right now I'm using a mac mini for "one" (it's quiet)
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tantek and an iMac with big terrabyte drives for "two" (it makes fan noises etc.)
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tantek when you're watching movies, you don't want any fan noise in the room
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tantek hence separate boxes
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tantek but yes, we're talking about indie music serving and indie video serving
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j12t i don’t have enough experience with this particular box yet to know whether it really needs to run the fan
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tantek oh also my mac mini has a DVD drive so it's also a DVD player
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j12t it’s not terribly loud though, my switch behind my desk is much louder
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aaronpk j12t: "indie music" is a generic term, "Indie Box" is a proper noun, that's why it could be "IndieBox" and still "indie music" makes sense
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j12t yea, I know, naming needs to be improved. rms pointed out that if it is called a box, the licenses involved definitely include hardware/bios etc
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j12t for right now, I’m taking the marketing approach of “let’s call it something that people can relate to and figure out details later"
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tantek oh I think IndieBox is a great name
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tantek instantly resonates
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tantek fills one with hope and expectations :)
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j12t hope and expectations of playing indie music and indie videos, as i am apparently learning this evening :-)
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j12t BTW: first press article just appeared: http://www.thewhir.com/blog/indie-box-one-personal-web-server-home-based-hosting-drawbacks
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tantek so wait, there's an Atom processor, Atom feed format, and Atom web-based code editor?
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j12t and most of them are also made of Atoms
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tantek I don't trust Atoms, they make up everything.
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j12t speak about recursion
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aaronpk it should be noted that most of the TOS of ISPs that people normally think don't allow people to host web servers actualy only prohibit commercial hosting
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aaronpk tantek++
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Loqi tantek has 39 karma
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j12t aaronpk: that’s what somebody at Comcast finally told me after about half a dozen calls. however, their TOS is so unclear that IMHO that had to be intentional
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tantek awesome: "Indie Box One will also provide periodic offsite backups in encrypted form to Amazon S3 or Glacier."
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aaronpk hm interesting
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j12t are you quoting my own language back to me? :-)
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aaronpk this seems like a bogus claim "Another major issue with Indie Box One, from an economics perspective, is that it’s an inefficient use of hardware."
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tantek j12t from the press article!
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aaronpk i assume most of the language from the press article is actually from j12t
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aaronpk cause that's how press works :)
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tantek aaronpk indeed! WTF does "inefficient use of hardware" mean?!?
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j12t actually I never talked to the guy, have no idea who he is
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tantek inefficient as compared to WHAT?
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j12t he took it off indiegogo
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j12t inefficient as compared to 200 customers on the same machine at 60% load
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j12t his is “web hosting review”
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tantek hey j12t, see this from the press article? "many Indie Box One users might just use it as a home media server…" == hope and expectations of playing indie music and indie videos
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j12t :-P
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tantek and I was asking about this *before* I read the press article!!
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tantek :)
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j12t you must clearly be smart
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j12t ok ok ok, i’ll figure out how to meet the needs and desires of the customer
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tantek this-> " cloud provider is able to more efficiently assign resources" HAHAHAHA - said by someone who's never had to maintain such a system.
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j12t well, yea, but I’m happy with the article. some things i would have said differently, and evaluated differently, but it’s largely accurate and positive, so what else do i want!
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tantek j12t - it's a GREAT article.
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tantek congrats
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tantek and props to the Known folks for getting their logo into that graphic into a press article that quickly. wow.
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tantek something is *definitely* afoot at the circle-K
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j12t actually that was me earlier today while sitting at iiw. the graphic is taken from the igg page
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aaronpk there was an article about Known?
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tantek aaronpk - look at the top of the indiebox article
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aaronpk oh!
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aaronpk cool
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tantek speaking of...
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tantek.com edited /Indie_Box (+250) "articles" (view diff)
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tantek j12t I made you a stub page: http://indiewebcamp.com/Indie_Box :)
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tantek (was kind of surprised you hadn't made one already ;) )
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j12t Thank you! This Indie Web thingy is faster than the press :-)
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j12t I’ve been spending my time writing e-mails
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GWG is furious
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tantek I'm pretty excited for the potential of Indie Box
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tantek gives GWG some chamomile tea.
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j12t Glad to hear! I’m oscillating between elation and terror.
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tantek j12t - I think that means you're doing it right.
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j12t oh
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GWG tantek: My internet has been down since Tuesday night. I'm tired of fighting with my cable provider
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tantek GWG - who is your cable provider and do you mind if we document their "reliability" on IndieWebCamp.com?
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tantek since of course that could affect hosting your own server from home
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GWG Time Warner Cable.
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GWG They actually stayed up during the whole of Sandy
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GWG Now they can't stay up this week.
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j12t I used to run a ping cron job, so I would have something in hand when complaining. But uptime has been better here lately, so it’s not needed often enough. We could also POSSE our ping logs from our Indie Boxes :-)
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GWG j12t: Where would you run it from and to?
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j12t from my router, ping something public. then hand over exact outage times
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GWG j12t: I have a second problem.
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aaronpk tantek: what time do you have the space for IWC NYC?
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tantek IWC East?
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aaronpk yeah
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tantek I think we can get in as early as 9am and have it til 19:00
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tantek (at least we did at IWC NYC)
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tantek might be able to push that later but then we run into dinner hours
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GWG I work at home, and my employer mandates a second router provided by them, and they are blocking things. But I'm working on that with them
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GWG j12t: What were you pinging?
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j12t Some server, like Comcast.net or Google or something. Just like 2 packets every 5 minutes or so.
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tantek uh http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/08/us-timewarnercable-comcast-congress-idUSBREA4703O20140508
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tantek "combined Comcast/Time Warner Cable would have … at least 40 percent of the broadband market" :(
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tantek GWG - this is not good.
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j12t and 60% of the downtime market
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tantek where's the "oh snap" emoji?
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tantek j12t when you startup a new indiebox - does it give you the option to simply restore it from some S3 or Glacier account?
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j12t not yet :-)
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GWG tantek: I agree.
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j12t generally an indiebox runs multiple “sites” aka virtual hosts, each of which can run multiple apps
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GWG tantek: It has been all over.
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j12t you’ll be able to “hop” those sites from one box to another
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j12t so if you migrate from an old to a new indiebox, it stays local on the network
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tantek j12t - um that's not what I'm talking about
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tantek the description says it can automatically backup "everything" to S3 or Glacier
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j12t yes, it does this in units of “sites"
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tantek which to me means, that it can also with zero setup automatically restore from S3 or Glacier upon cold start.
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j12t that’s not intended (but you can convince me that it should)
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tantek if backup isn't close to zero config then it doesn't happen
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j12t the use case you have in mind is total distaster?
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j12t well there are different use cases
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tantek and once you have backup that is ~zero config, then restore should be too
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j12t the most frequent one I’ve seen is to move one site from one box to another
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j12t total hardware failure happens far less
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tantek j12t - common use cases: theft, fire, water damage
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tantek hardware failure: disk
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j12t we have two mirrored disks in the box, so the more common case is to add a new disk and rebalance
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tantek rather than attempting to repair your indiebox it may much more time efficient to simply deploy a new one, connect to previous S3/Glacier account, have it restore itself, and be totally up & running as if nothing happened
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tantek then you can reset / repair the broken at your leisure. or send it back for "credit"
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j12t except if you have 100s of GB on your box, and you exceed your monthly bandwidth limit just by attempting to restore half of it
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tantek 100s of GB of video presumably
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tantek not sure what else you'd have 100s of GB of
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aaronpk photos and music
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j12t truth be told, not all of those cases have been modeled out completely
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j12t so if you run some use cases by me, that’d be good!
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tantek j12t - so let's start with this then:
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tantek 1. either you're assuming no music/photos/video on the box in common usage: ergo zero setup backup & restore should be doable (no bandwidth problems)
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tantek 2. or you're assuming music/photos/video usage, and then that's a different problem
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j12t note that indie box software does not really know what kind of data it is dealing with. that’s up to the app
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tantek j12t - note that indie box comes with preinstalled software "apps", so indie box *does* know somewhat what kind of data it is dealing with by default
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tantek so basically, assume any user would want zero admin backup of the data in the default apps.
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tantek and thus restore as well
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j12t my expectation is that users will very quickyl change things around from the factory settings. e.g. assign different virtual hostnames, have multiple instances etc
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j12t e.g. factory default is one virtual host called “indiebox”
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j12t at home in my family, we don’t have that any more, but we have “family” and “jernst” and my wife’s and my kids’ etc
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tantek j12t I would expect all that configuration information to also be backed up and restorable
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j12t i run an instance of shaarli, she runs a separate install
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j12t only mean to say that don’t put much value into the default config
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j12t yes, config info is definitely fully backed up, down to the version of the app
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j12t so restore can be successful even if the app has been upgraded in the meantime
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j12t actually i got to go, wayyy behind on everything … later ...
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tantek later j12t! and once again congrats on this week's launch(es). :)
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aaronpk ok, this is a good reason to use owncloud http://www.tomahawk-player.org/
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aaronpk http://www.tomahawk-player.org/resolvers.html
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aaronpk "Whenever Tomahawk is looking for a song, it searches all of your available content resolvers and then plays it from your best available source."
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aaronpk resolvers include: Spotify, Sound Cloud, and of course Own Cloud!
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tantek.com edited /2014-05-06-iiw-indiebox (+32) "see also" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /store (-30) "/* Platforms */ local link Indie Box" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/2014-05-06-iiw (+2) "/* Session notes */ Indie space Box" (view diff)
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tantek steps away from the wiki for a bit
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aaronpk whoa
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GWG Whoa?
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aaronpk lots of wiki
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+7) (view diff)
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aaronpk i hate when i can't tell if hitting enter in a text box will type a newline or submit the post
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aaronpk finds a n to copy and paste
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aaronpk that worked surprisingly well
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-1) (view diff)
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aaronpk TIL you can paste a link into a facebook post to have it generate the auto-preview, then remove the link and the preview stays!
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bret aaronpk holy cow on your phone
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bret how were you storing your contacts?
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aaronpk bret: they were split between the esri exchange server and icloud
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aaronpk and i had facebook contacts pulled down too
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aaronpk the weird thing is they're all still there, just my phone is empty
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bret o.0
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bret iphones are weird
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aaronpk kind of an excuse to start looking into owncloud tho
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aaronpk i'm still debating between running owncloud on my home server or building CardDAV support into p3k
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+37) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+27) (view diff)
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pauloppenheim aaronpk: why not the apple carddav server instead of all of owncloud? http://trac.calendarserver.org/
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-19) (view diff)
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bret pauloppenheim cool! have you tried it?
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pauloppenheim a little a long time ago
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pauloppenheim it's what's on OS X server
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aaronpk pauloppenheim: the thing that makes me nervous about running a separate project in general is the maintenance overhead of a separate system
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aaronpk (also my server is linux)
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-13) (view diff)
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bret i use google's card dav service
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pauloppenheim right, it's just a python app
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aaronpk so yeah there are a ton of open source carddav servers
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pauloppenheim bret: they have one? or you mean gmail?
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bret gmail
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pauloppenheim aaronpk: i'm not sure there are as many with as much debugging behind them
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pauloppenheim i've been meaning to run it again myself, but my home servers are in more disarray than carddav right now...
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bret pauloppenheim i found adding a carddav account to iphone was a little more robust than the defualt gmail option
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aaronpk yeah that's the situation i want to avoid getting into... a disarray of lots of separate projects
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pauloppenheim yeah, i can relate
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pauloppenheim starting to understand why someone might want a pile of raspberrypi around
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pauloppenheim it's easier to just bring up a new machine than add more to an existing one
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GWG pauloppenheim: You have a pile of pi?
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pauloppenheim GWG: no, but i know people who do and i didn't used to understand why that would be desirable
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GWG pauloppenheim: The pi has pros and cons.
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pauloppenheim and now i'm trying to migrate linux servers to BSD jails and learn docker, so that i can run multiple versions of things
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pauloppenheim and this is all a pain in the ass
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-8) (view diff)
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pauloppenheim GWG: i know
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kylewm wow, the docstrings in ronkyuu use Aaron and Barnaby in place of Alice and Bob
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kylewm that's awesome
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aaronpk haha
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (-82) (view diff)
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bret bear++
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Loqi bear has 4 karma
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gRegor` Stupid MediaWiki. Doesn't replace template variables that appear within *some* HTML apparently.
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gRegor` E.g. an event date in a <time> element.
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+147) (view diff)
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gregorlove.com edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+12) (view diff)
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bret ohh those are looking sweet gRegor`++
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gRegor` !tell aaronpk Do you know if there is a relatively easy to change MediaWiki setting that would properly display template variables within specific HTML? See http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox where the event date template variable works in the date bubble, in a <span>, but fails in the <time> element.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk ugh
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Loqi aaronpk: gRegor` left you a message 24 seconds ago: Do you know if there is a relatively easy to change MediaWiki setting that would properly display template variables within specific HTML? See http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox where the event date template variable works in the date bubble, in a <span>, but fails in the <time> element.
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gRegor` Oops. DIdn't see ya there.
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gRegor` I'm trying to make using the template require minimal/no HTML, but if it's too much of a pain, don't worry about it.
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aaronpk is there a way to include the datetime in a microformats way without using the <time> element?
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gRegor` Meaning people don't have to write <time class="dt-start" datetime="....
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gRegor` Yeah, it works in <span>, so I think that can work for dt-start?
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aaronpk i have a feeling there is no way to easily change the way mediawiki handles html elements
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gRegor` I'll revisit it tomorrow. I'm le tired.
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aaronpk so if you can figure out a way to do it with <span> that's probably better
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gRegor` Thanks, bret
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gregorlove.com edited /Template:one-day-event (+69) (view diff)
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kylewm gRegor`++
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Loqi gRegor` has 3 karma
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kylewm (didn't take earlier :)
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kylewm any feelings about allowing whitespace in tags?
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gRegor` http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2FUser%3AGregorlove.com%2Fsandbox Does that dt-end look correct, since it's the same date it should only have the time?
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gRegor` There is <span class="value" title="2013-05-01"></span> in the dt-end span.
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kylewm gRegor`: that doesn't look quite right, I'm trying to figure out why
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gRegor` I think it's because the <span> is empty. Not sure if that's expected parsing behavior or a bug in the parser
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gRegor` I'm heading to bed for real this time, so I'll take a look tomorrow. I think I actually don't have to have separate spans for date and time
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kylewm might well be a parser bug. if it is php-mf2 and mf2py both suffer from it. g'night :)
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gRegor` Ah, it's expected. <span> isn't listed and "for any other element, use its inner-text." http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_parsing
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gRegor` You win this round, MediaWiki ::shakes fist::
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gRegor` falls asleep
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dariusdunlap Well, I did a pretty thorough look at web hosting options. Don’t have the energy to summarize, but it looks like part of my problem will be handled by moving squarepegfoundation.org to a free (to nonprofits) hosting plan. I’ll try to get around to summarizing all this tomorrow. Now, for bed. :-)
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KevinMarks_ sounds like a very useful thing to read, do put it on the wiki
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tantek definitely! http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting
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j12t http://boingboing.net/2014/05/08/crowdfunding-indie-box-a-huma.html
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tantek yeah!!!!
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j12t now let’s see whether any of this translates into sales!
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tantek now you just have to ship it :)
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j12t I know I can do the shipping. The sales is less predictable ...
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tantek.com edited /Indie_Box (+185) "boingboing!" (view diff)
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@poul_oum "@jedisct1: Sandstorm looks very interesting: https://t.co/L7fEB1aTJc" #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/464675413558853632)
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tantek.com edited /communication (+278) "/* Articles */ Markup for personal comms" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /facepile (+418) "/* Examples */ add Will Norris example, headings for individuals" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+5) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ next one" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Main_Page (+8) "/* IndieWebCamp 2014 */" (view diff)
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@jeena @tobiastom yesterday I deployed "Photos" https://jeena.net/photos/2 how far have you got in #indieweb? (twitter.com/_/status/464707466388074496)
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@EUWatchers @benedikt_wi decentralized social networks? learn about #indieweb #federated #socialnetworks #webmention emerging tech to put it in practice (twitter.com/_/status/464719497304477696)
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david.shanske.com edited /facepile (+0) "/* David Shanske */" (view diff)
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cweiske upload fail: ".png" is not a permitted file type. Permitted file types are png, gif, jpg, jpeg, pdf, txt, svg, ai.
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cweiske.de uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facepile david-shanske-com.png]]""
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GWG Good morning, cweiske
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cweiske hi
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GWG Or, considering the de, good afternoon.
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cweiske.de edited /facepile (+18) "/* David Shanske */ link to screenshot" (view diff)
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GWG What prompted the update?
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cweiske ?
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GWG The screenshot you are trying to post.
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cweiske I could not use several dots in the filename
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GWG I was going to do one, but my internet service has been down for over 3 days, and I'm on a cell.
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cweiske foo.bar.com.png is not allowed
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cweiske.de uploaded /Special:Log/upload "uploaded "[[File:facepile kartikprabhu com.png]]""
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GWG Which is really starting to annoy me.
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cweiske.de edited /facepile (+20) "/* Kartik Prabhu */ link screenshot" (view diff)
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cweiske.de edited /facepile (+137) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ link examples" (view diff)
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cweiske if you give yourself icons that are letters, you can use facepiles to write text
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cweiske "YOU_SUCK"
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cweiske 8 likes more
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GWG That would seem the opposite of like
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cweiske sure
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GWG There is no dislike.
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GWG But, I'm trying to figure out. Are you saying you don't like my facepile?
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cweiske no. this was not against your or anyone else
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GWG Ok
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cweiske just an idea how to hack the system
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GWG I thought it was a nice visual feature people could respond to.
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GWG Instead of merging it in with the comments, which is the default behavior
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cweiske it makes sense to separate them
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cweiske I personally would hide them by default and only show "5 mentions". upon click, the faces would show
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GWG cweiske: Before I respond to that...How much do you know about Wordpress?
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cweiske I know that it's written in php
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cweiske that's about it
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GWG Well, Wordpress has two extension methods.
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GWG Themes and Plugins
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GWG The Facepile I have, I wrote into the theme.
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GWG I may be moving the feature to a plugin, so it could be used in any theme.
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GWG If I do that, I would probably do some different designs to test.
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GWG My Wordpress theme is not following 'best practices'.
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@call_user_func [New]taproot/authentication Makes adding indieauth login (client app) and token generation (server app) to your Si… https://packagist.org/packages/taproot/authentication (twitter.com/_/status/464779343881719808)
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@generic_brian Fucking progress! #badWords #indieweb https://twitter.com/generic_brian/status/464782049170038784/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/464782049170038784)
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voxpelli Seems like AngularJS, Ember.js and the likes isn't mentioned on the wiki
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voxpelli Surely thae client-side approach to rendeirng and logic that Angular and such has doesn't fit well with the IndieWeb
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kbs dunno about angularjs et. al., but it does strike me that indiewebcamp at least is pretty focused on browser-mediated interfaces to the web
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voxpelli kbs: and on parsing pages to find metadata – which isn't feasible if the metadata is hidden inside a javascript-program like in a Angular-site
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brainTrain heh just peeped the logs. Angular js is for me to build my interface. I'm a frontend dev and have built a few modules but want to build a full project
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kbs voxpelli: *nod* I see what you mean, makes sense
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brainTrain I want a logged in component for my indie web site because all of my facebook stuff is locked down, twitter will be public
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Loqi gives brainTrain a logged in component for my indie web site because all of my facebook stuff is locked down
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brainTrain but yeah, I started with jQuery, but my angular code is tiny by comparison which is awesome
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voxpelli brainTrain: am I understanding you correctly that you want to build only parts of your site in Angular?
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brainTrain no, the whole thing will be
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brainTrain I built a box, installed django on it
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brainTrain django will be my backend, angular will handle my frontend rendering and interactions
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voxpelli brainTrain: are you planning on making webmentions and relmeauth/indieauth and such work with that?
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brainTrain there's a bit of a conflict between angular and django templating so I think django's just gonna supply me with json blobs because my angualr html templates tend to be cleaner than my django html templates
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brainTrain yeah now I'm gonna dig into this: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md and see if I can integrate it with django
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brainTrain I integrated sendmail with django about a year ago
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brainTrain which allowed me to use email addresses as endpoints that I could hit by texting
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voxpelli the problem you will have is that if your content is rendered with Angular, then a server fetching your page wont see any links or microformats in the content unless they bootstrap and run your entire Angular app
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voxpelli it's like trying to use Instagram with IndieAuth
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brainTrain so these web mentions scrape then?
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brainTrain and need certain html formatting?
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voxpelli an Instagram profile, http://instagram.com/voxpelli, has a rel-me link, but it is rendered by a client side script so most server lookups wont find it
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willnorris.com edited /Jekyll (-1) "update github URL" (view diff)
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brainTrain hm ok, I think I need to dig into the web mention docs and see what the deal is
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voxpelli brainTrain: yes, for webmentions specifically and for microformat data in general
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brainTrain I don't think I'm 100% following
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brainTrain ok well if it's as simple as html formatting then angular shouldn't be an issue
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brainTrain that's just for interactions and rendering
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brainTrain you can make it do whatever you want
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brainTrain just like jQuery... only fewer lines of js! :D
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voxpelli Angular is a framework though? Not a library like jQuery? But sure, it can be combined with other tools but mostly isn't
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brainTrain it's kinda weird in that respect. In some ways I'd say it's a framework, in others a library
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brainTrain I think you can think of it as a framework for your dom data
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brainTrain so with django I think the best alternative is to not allow django to render html, just have it send angular json blobs. Angular then consumes said blobs and renders html exactly how django would
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voxpelli yeah, but then someone scraping you wont see that html
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kbs [I'd assume the various link tags (<link rel= <a rel= ) ought to be a non-issue - can always embed them statically in the html.]
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brainTrain but you know, you inject angular attributes which abstract certain things and make coding frontend interactions easier
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brainTrain they see the html
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brainTrain the only difference is extra angular attributes
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brainTrain like ng-click="someClickFunction()"
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brainTrain but I have full control of my html markup
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voxpelli kbs: not if all pages are served through a single Angular router which is typically the case for these client side frameworks
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kbs voxpelli: oh, I see -- didn't realize that's how they were used in practice. thanks, interesting
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brainTrain vox: I can add any static html init an angular template soooo I'm pretty sure kbs is correct here
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brainTrain but
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brainTrain I wouldn't use routes
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brainTrain I'd use django's urls
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brainTrain er well... I'm undecided
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brainTrain but will prolly use django's urls
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brainTrain heh whoops * init = into
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voxpelli kbs: if they're using the HTML5 History API rather than hashes for the paths, then the server could render a scrapable version, but then you also duplicate all of the logic in two places almost nullifying the benefits of a client side framework
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kylewm brainTrain: it would be really great if you can document what works and what doesn't with Indieweb <-> client-side rendering on the wiki. sounds like this hasn't *really* been explored yet
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brainTrain yeah for sure
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brainTrain I've been working on a project called brainnewstuff.com
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brainTrain I've been using it to keep track of nerd notes
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brainTrain it's pretty ugly right now but eventually I wanna play around with responsive code snippet and command line snippet formatting that doesn't suck hardcore
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voxpelli agree with kylewm, that would be great
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dunlaps.net edited /web_hosting (+18) "/* Criteria */" (view diff)
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brainTrain once I get this indieweb site going I think I'm gonna use angular (and routes) to have a static angular site which highlights all of the side projects I've started (and barely completed) on my github.io page
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brainTrain and after that I'm thinking of migrating brainnewstuff to its own box, and opening it up to the public
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brainTrain then you'd be able to share notes by doing something like <subdomain>.brainnewstuff.com/some-note-slug
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brainTrain I split the models in two, I've got thoughts which attempt to be atomic and notes are collections of thoughts
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brainTrain that way I can add a thought like "restart-apache" which will render "$ sudo service apache2 restart" and I can re-use that thought on every note that include apache restarts in its flow
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kbs imagines someone coming up with a creative qrcode-as-icon as an alternative to rel=me from silos
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brainTrain my problem is I'm frontend so I don't know how much an apache/django box can handle. I did some research and it seems that you can server a lot from one box if you use varnish, so you know, more to learn. But I'm documenting all this stuff cause I've learned that it's useful to have one place to look :)
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brainTrain but yeah I think I see your concerns with angular vox, you're saying that because of the routing hash it will probably disrupt the web mention crawler, correct?
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voxpelli brainTrain: if you're just doing a personal site, then you likely won't get any scalability issues unless you get on the top of Hacker News or something
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brainTrain exactly, worst/best nightmare. My goal for all of these things is to become as professionally competent as possible, so I've been holding myself back as sort of an extra incentive to do stuff right/completely
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voxpelli brainTrain: well, that and if any good data others would want to parse – like microformats – needs javascript to show then it won't be crawlable
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brainTrain but yeah I know most people think they have a scaling problem but don't
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aaronpk kbs: there was some talk of putting a pixel font footer in profile photos with your URL
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brainTrain ahhh I see, so I'd wanna set up an rss feed or something
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voxpelli brainTrain: see http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark
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brainTrain although mustache is a pretty widely used in js, are you saying that anything I template with that won't be able to be picked up?
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brainTrain cool thanks!
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voxpelli yes, it's like that page says, "if you can't curl it, it's not on the web"
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kylewm it's not totally crazy to imagine django serving minimal microformatted html pages, then client side parsing microformats to json and doing whatever you want from there
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kbs aaronpk: haha, nice :) I was just thinking that most of these sites are making sure that their og: and/or twitter: fields are in shape. So perhaps icons or descriptions migth be an alternate place to pull out information equivalent to rel=me
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Loqi rofl
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brainTrain hmm alright, I think I could get around that by inserting the json into the dom
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brainTrain and rendering some meta tags or something
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brainTrain er well, like I said I'll have to dig into the docs
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brainTrain but I'm pretty good at work arounds and creative solutions :)
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brainTrain I'm pretty sure I have a wedding that clashes with this summer's indie web camp though, which is a bit of a bummer, but it looks like those happen fairly often which is sweet!
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brainTrain but yeah good to know. There are a couple of ways to pass server side data from django to angular. I was gonna just do straight json blobs, but another options is to still allow django to render html and pass the data in that way
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brainTrain and while I do find my angular html templates to be smaller and more maintainable than django ones, it's really not a big deal to set up django to generate html with angular attributes and use angular a bit more like jQuery :)
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voxpelli aaronpk: know a good place in the wiki to add some documentation of pitfalls with client side frameworks like Angular and Ember?
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brainTrain (that's what I'm doing now cause at work we started with jquery a year ago and are slowly migrating to angular for easier maintainability etc )
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kylewm brainTrain: you could parse the html to json with a microformats parser
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kylewm rather than pulling stuff out of the DOM jquery style
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brainTrain ok cool I'll look into microformats parsers
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brainTrain any recommendations? I haven't heard of these suckers
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kylewm glennjones maintains the javascript one
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kylewm and KartikPrabhu the Python one (mf2py)
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brainTrain June'll mark year 3 of me coding for realz, I've learned a ton in that time but there's still way more that I don't know heh :p
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aaronpk voxpelli: sounds like the database antipatterns article
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aaronpk maybe a new header on http://indiewebcamp.com/antipatterns with a short summary, then a new page for it?
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brainTrain oh cool!
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aaronpk or just start with a new section on /antipatterns
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aaronpk "Client-Side Rendering" maybe?
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kylewm brainTrain: I should say tommorris wrote mf2py, and KartikPrabhu is developing a fork that uses BeautifulSoup
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brainTrain but yeah thanks for the cautions all! I've skimmed through some indie webz docs and decided to get the basics of my server squared away before I dove in, so now's the time
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brainTrain interesting. One thing I wanna try out is phantomjs
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brainTrain apparently you can use that to interact with web pages headlessly
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brainTrain I'm assuming you need node, but I'm not sure
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voxpelli aaronpk: yeah – a new section there and link to it from the database antipattern one perhaps
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brainTrain soooo actually that might render js templates because (I'm pretty sure) it's supposed to be a selenium replacement, but I haven't gone too deep into that either so I really don't know
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tommorris brainTrain: PhantomJS can be set up to use WebDriver which lets you interact with it using other languages, not necessarily JS
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brainTrain ah alright, that's even better then!
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tommorris PhantomJS+WebDriver is slower than just writing JS though. I much prefer Python or Ruby, but ended up using JS for some PhantomJS work I’m doing
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brainTrain but yeah the stuff I wanna do with phantom js is pretty low on my priority list as far as for fun coding is concerned at the moment. I'm hoping I can use it to scrape sites that don't have api's and obscure their urls
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brainTrain hm ok cool, thanks tom. Good to know
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brainTrain ok so one high level question. I've been assuming I could use indieweb with my private facebook posts/comments but I'm starting to think that it's really only for public content at the moment (based on the curl comment above)
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brainTrain would that be a correct assumption?
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tommorris I’m using it to scrape Google because Google doesn’t have an API anymore.
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tommorris and when I’m writing content in Vim, I sometimes want to hyperlink words to the top Google result
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brainTrain yeah it's annoying when companies get rid of their api's
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tommorris Google used to have a SOAP API I used. then an “AJAX” API (whatever one of those is).
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brainTrain lol
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brainTrain and now nothing :(
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tommorris they can’t turn off the HTTP+HTML API. I have to spin up a PhantomJS thread to do a search now, but whatevs.
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dunlaps.net created /hostingnotes (+5545) "Created page with "Below are some notes on various hosting providers. Plans and technology change, so be sure to check details. (Original document from [[Darius Dunlap]] for his own decision proc..."" (view diff)
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@CCsolidarity @astradisastra nice book Astra. http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13168201-the-people-s-platform #inequality #nsa #indieweb https://twitter.com/CCsolidarity/status/464798791653421057/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/464798791653421057)
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voxpelli brainTrain: there are experiments in private content, but it hasn't gotten as far as eg. webmentions
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brainTrain the cool thing about scraping though is that you don't need an api! \o/ I looked into doing that with gmail because I didn't wanna create an api integration with them just to have them remove or change it on me, but I got frustrated and just installed sendmail instead (which I think most people would find a bit insane)
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brainTrain ok sweet, then I'll focus on the public side of my server
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brainTrain and get this web mention stuff workin with my twitter account
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dunlaps.net edited /hostingnotes (+77) (view diff)
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dunlaps.net edited /hostingnotes (+2) (view diff)
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dariusdunlap I hope that’s helpful. It’s just a quickly cleaned up version of my notes from my hosting investigation yesterday. FWIW, I think I’ll be moving squarepegfoundation.org to Dreamhost for their free hosting for nonprofits, and then decide what I want to do with the rest of my stuff.
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KevinMarks Gmail has lots of apis
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aaronpk my favorite gmail api is imap
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KevinMarks There's imap, and an Atom one and a json one iirc
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KevinMarks There used to be portable contacts and activity Streams
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barnabywalters aaronpk: so there are typically multiple parties involved in an indieauth-authenticated+authorized transaction — are the names for them documented somewhere?
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brainTrain yeah I just feel like, if I'm going to have to write an api integration that'll eventually change and become more locked down, I'd rather scrape since I'll have to change my code anyway :p
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barnabywalters specifically I am having trouble finding the name for entities who provide tickets and, e.g. host micropub endpoints
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barnabywalters as opposed to being client apps, identities or authorization providers
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iangreenleaf so I've been kicking around this idea, and now seems like a relevant time to share it with you all
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iangreenleaf I want to build a "middleman" API that runs locally, and provides a normal-looking JSON API for our favorite silos
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iangreenleaf but the implementation of each API is whatever - screen scraping, etc
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aaronpk barnabywalters: what do you mean "tickets"?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: eh, tokens
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barnabywalters it’s friday
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aaronpk whee friday
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aaronpk when in doubt, fall back to oauth 2 terminology
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barnabywalters friday is apparently “talk about bioengineering and write documentation” day
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aaronpk easy version: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2012/07/29/1/oauth2-simplified
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barnabywalters so it’s the “resource server”?
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kylewm dariusdunlap: those hostingnotes look really useful, what do you think about folding them into web_hosting as a separate section on specific providers?
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iangreenleaf that make sense? so you'd have a stable-ish and sensible target to build applications against, without being limited to whatever the powers decide to give you officially
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aaronpk in OAuth 2, the resource server hosts both the authoriztion endpoint and the token endpoint
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aaronpk side note: the OAuth 2 people were somewhat shocked that I even considered making those two separate servers
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: perhaps https://github.com/indieweb/php-mf2-shim might be of interest to you as prior art — it screen-scrapes silos into canonical microformats2 json
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aaronpk but it's fine if they're separate systems as long as they have a way to talk to each other
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aaronpk oh man it's friday ignore this
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barnabywalters aaronpk: sure, that doesn’t really bother me — I just need terminology which I can use to reason about this, and write documentation with
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kylewm iangreenleaf: are you familiar with https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial ?
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iangreenleaf barnabywalters: nifty, thanks. that's along the right lines, though obviously I'm thinking more generic
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aaronpk sorry, http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6749#section-1.1
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aaronpk resource server = micropub endpoint
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iangreenleaf kylewm: nice! okay, clearly I'm not the first person to think of this
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aaronpk authorization server = authorization endpoint and token endpoint
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aaronpk i haven't given a different name to the server that hosts the authorization endpoint yet
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kbs has a feeling JWT may be more interesting/useful than OAuth per-se :)
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: well, the only advice I can give is make sure it solves a specific problem :) e.g. php-mf2-shim solves the specific problem of me wanting to get tweets and feeds as if they’d been marked up as microformats without having to use the twitter API
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barnabywalters aaronpk: okay, sounds like “resource server” is the term I was looking for.
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barnabywalters thanks!
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@nobantu Note for 47 of the 92 Sessions at #IIW 18 up on the Wiki: http://iiw.idcommons.net/IIW_18_Notes we're expecting more!! #identity #VRM #indieweb #IndieBox (twitter.com/_/status/464803225099829248)
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dariusdunlap kylewm - I went back and forth and decided to make it a seperate page, at least until I (we?) get around to cleaning up the format a bit. It wasn’t clear where to put it in web_hosting, so I just made a link and a new page.
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kylewm iangreenleaf: I think you have stumbled on (one of) snarfed's raison(s) d'etre :)
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dariusdunlap Does anyone know if https://github.com/tommorris/mf2py is the canonical mf2py?
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tommorris dariusdunlap: yes. at some point, I’ll pull stuff in from KartikPrabhu.
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iangreenleaf barnabywalters: in my mind it's definitely a generic tool to be a building block for other stuff - like official APIs themselves
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tommorris dariusdunlap: the version on my github matches up with the version in PyPI
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dariusdunlap Oh, hi, tommorris! thanks!
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: no problem with generic tools, but ensuring that they solve a specific problem is a good test to make sure that they’re genuniely useful
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tommorris (I might even find some time this weekend to work on mf2py.)
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@nobantu Notes for 47 of the 92 Sessions at #IIW 18 up on the Wiki: http://iiw.idcommons.net/IIW_18_Notes we're expecting more!! #identity #VRM #indieweb #IndieBox (twitter.com/_/status/464803895223791616)
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kylewm dariusdunlap: there's A LOT of information in your notes that is (imo) missing from web-hosting, I say dump it in there, and worry about cleaning up later :)
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kbs iangreenleaf: I wonder if (for instance) being able to post to g+ and instagram through your middle-man might be a handy starting point?
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: oh were you thinking it would implement both read and write? that would be *awesome*
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barnabywalters especially if, for example, it exposed a micropub endpoint (i.e. standard post-creation API) which could post to silos
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iangreenleaf Yep, that's exactly what I have in mind. Like a library the rest of you could use in your various indieweb setups.
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dariusdunlap kylewm: Wihtout considerable editing, it wasn’t clear how to make it fit. I did put a link at the top of web_hosting.
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kylewm dariusdunlap: oh! I missed the link, ok
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dariusdunlap kylewm: and thanks! :-)
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iangreenleaf the unofficial activitystreams look nice, but looks like they're also limited to what the official APIs provide
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kbs iangreenleaf: is your middleman idea an actual code library, or is it a network endpoint?
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iangreenleaf so here's the idea: it's a library that you run yourself that provides a REST endpoint
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iangreenleaf you run it yourself because then it can do scraping from your computer, with your IP
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kbs aha, gotcha.
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iangreenleaf rather than one centralized IP that's suspicious and easily blocked
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dariusdunlap kylewm: yeah, maybe the link to too easy to miss. As I was editing, I thought also that links to specific sections from the host mentions in web_hosting might be useful… so you could click a “Digital Ocean” link on web_hosting that would take you straight to the Digital Ocean section of hostingnotes.
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Loqi [mention] http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2014/04/17/syndication-support-for-idno-email-posting/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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kylewm.com edited /web_hosting (+88) "/* Criteria */ annotate hostingnotes link" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /web_hosting (+19) "/* See Also */" (view diff)
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iangreenleaf I also have some crazy notions about how this is legally defensible as being indivisible from accessing a site through a browser, thus no more a breaking of Terms of Service than all other traffic to a site
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dariusdunlap Maybe I’ll get around to some of this gardening this weekend. Meantime, I hope some people with direct experience with these hosts will contrbute some helpful info.
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kylewm probably worth making a /Digital_Ocean
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kylewm make that DigitalOcean
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dariusdunlap kylewm: thanks! I kinda suck at wikitext. ;-)
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kylewm ha, I mean I just realized that the company name doesn't have a space
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kylewm iangreenleaf: so are you think silo-middleman would totally avoid silo APIs?
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dariusdunlap kylewm: I also think that maybe the providers need to be reorganized in some more useful pattern. Alphabetical by name, maybe? They are now just in the order I did my research.
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iangreenleaf it would use the API if the API is complete and useful and unrestricted
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iangreenleaf basically, whatever gives you the most power
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iangreenleaf oh, and the other part of my vision is to provide a base platform on which it's easy to build and maintain modular parts that do the actual work for each silo
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iangreenleaf because if this became a thing, a) I won't have time to maintain every silo connection myself
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iangreenleaf b) it's probably safer from an operational standpoint to have things separated out a bit
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iangreenleaf if Facebook goes bananas with legal action on the FB module, probably best to have everything else somewhat insulated
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kylewm iangreenleaf: fourthing/fifthing that that sounds awesome. and definitely consider using micropub+microformats for your external API
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iangreenleaf yeah, I'll give some thought to microformats - certainly I'd want the final product to be as "standard" as possible while still offering a full range of access
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kylewm oh awesome! Cory Doctorow article about Indie Box http://boingboing.net/2014/05/08/crowdfunding-indie-box-a-huma.html (via @dariusdunlap)
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iangreenleaf although in practice, it will probably end up being that each module defines its own API
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iangreenleaf there could be several competing FB modules, for ex, with different implementations - it would be great if they each offered an identical API, but realistically that probably won't be 100% true
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dariusdunlap It’s sort of right up Cory’s alley. ;-)
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iangreenleaf so if I started building a proof of concept, what would be the single most awesome silo target that you all would want to use right away?
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kbs has already cast his vote :)
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iangreenleaf kbs: you might win, because I kinda like the G+ idea too - not sure why that silo exists if we can't cross-post from Twitter and otherwise completely ignore it ;)
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kylewm iangreenleaf: i think Instagram is probably the least-well-served currently
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iangreenleaf ok, consensus is either G+ or Instagram :)
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iangreenleaf I'll see what I can get going. Man I wish I had unlimited time so I didn't have to balance cool things like this against actual work and life.
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: that is a common issue :) let us know when you solve it!
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brainTrain w00t! public/private content rendering! https://www.atoddswithclarity.com/ no indie web stuff yet cause now I've gotta go to work
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Loqi :D
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brainTrain thanks for the help and advice with angualr etc :)
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brainTrain (apologies if you got the link and badwords upset you) laser on peeps!
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barnabywalters released just now, in use on waterpigs.co.uk right now: taproot/authentication! https://github.com/taproot/authentication
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aaronpk oo
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aaronpk that was fast
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barnabywalters a library which makes implementing indieauth client apps and resource servers as easy as it should be
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barnabywalters …if you use silex
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chloeweil.com edited /2014/Guest_List (+355) "/* East */" (view diff)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: well all of the code already existed, it just needed to be abstracted in a way which actually made sense, and then documented
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kbs wishes jwt had started from openpgp signatures rather than reimplementing everything :)
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barnabywalters still haven’t written any tests yet
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barnabywalters but ~4 months of active use on waterpigs.co.uk gives me a certain amount of confidence in it
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snarfed public service announcement: if you write or maintain webmention code, please update it to discover endpoints in <a> tags!
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snarfed details: https://github.com/converspace/webmention/pull/32
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snarfed tl;dr: we added it recently so we could support wordpress.com, which doesn't allow custom HTTP headers or <link> tags
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snarfed on the same note, if you run a web site that sends webmentions, check which code or library you use and ask its owner to add this
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aaronpk snarfed: make a short post and post on indienews!
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snarfed aaronpk: definitely! on my todo list
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kbs yikes - copyrightability of APIs reversed? http://www.cafc.uscourts.gov/images/stories/opinions-orders/13-1021.Opinion.5-7-2014.1.PDF
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kbs relevant section on page 5 - "we conclude that the declaring code and the structure, sequence, and organization of the API packages are entitled to copyright protection, we reverse the district court's copyrightability determination" - pertinent to yesterdays discussion from cweiske
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kbs I guess the next question would be whether network endpoint APIs are 'copyrightable'. Ugh, this doesn't make sense to me
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kbs this is pretty dumb, given that [as far as I can see] stewardship of java has more-or-less de-facto shifted to android/google
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kbs (er, dumb for oracle to have started down this path I mean) there's far fewer reasons these days to be coding java other than android
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kylewm snarfed: you might have some thoughts/warnings per iangreenleaf's ideas this morning
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kylewm especially, does a-u support posting in addition to pulling data down?
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snarfed kylewm: sure, link?
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snarfed was it in irc logs?
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snarfed got it, reading
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snarfed a-u definitely supports posting, bridgy publish uses it
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snarfed iangreenleaf: activitystreams-unofficial author here
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iangreenleaf snarfed: hello!
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snarfed in addition to the project, i'd suggest checking out the related work section: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#related-work
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snarfed (if you haven't already)
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snarfed especially https://github.com/sockethub/sockethub
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iangreenleaf yeah, am looking at that now, that looks interesting
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snarfed i'm obviously biased toward a-u, and it does both read and write, and can be used as both library and hosted REST API
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snarfed but sockethub is great too, and broader than a-u (ie supports more silos), if not as deep
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GWG I'm finally 100% back online. What's going on here?
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snarfed logs++ :P
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Loqi logs has 1 karma
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iangreenleaf am I correct in thinking that a-u sticks to the official APIs, and probably intends to do so?
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snarfed iangreenleaf: as opposed to…screen scraping?
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iangreenleaf yeah, or unofficial APIs (borrowing AJAX endpoints)
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snarfed it mostly uses the APIs. there are a few things it scrapes that the APIs don't offer, e.g. twitter favorites
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snarfed but yeah, using APIs is an intentional choice, since they're obviously way more stable and consistent
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iangreenleaf good to know, thanks - so it's more of a practical decision than anything else
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snarfed sure
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iangreenleaf I'll definitely be poking around a-u and sockethub some more
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snarfed great!
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snarfed obviously i'm interested in the same goal as you, definitely ping me if you're interested in working together more!
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iangreenleaf I will - I have no idea how much time I will manage to dedicate to this, but it's been floating around in my head for months now, so I do want to pursue it.
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iangreenleaf Probably would be better for me to glom onto an existing project than try to get momentum behind my own, so I'll definitely think about whether a-u would fit my purposes.
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snarfed great!
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snarfed do you have a specific use case in mind?
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iangreenleaf not a specific personal goal of mine, no - just that it bugs me that it's so hard to write anything to target silos
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snarfed got it
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iangreenleaf I started thinking about it in conjunction with Twitter's ugly API crackdown
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snarfed yeah, they're no fun
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snarfed i'd echo barnabywalters's advice: start with a small concrete use case, helps focus
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iangreenleaf and it's bothered me every time I try to get going on indieweb stuff or alt platforms like Tent
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barnabywalters iangreenleaf: thanks to bridgy, you shouldn’t really need to interact with silos much when building indieweb stuff now
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barnabywalters except for, e.g. reply context fetching and feed subscription, hence my+aaronpk’s work on php-mf2-shim
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snarfed barnabywalters++
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Loqi barnabywalters has 36 karma
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tantek It is amazing how empowering bridgy is.
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tantek bridgy++
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Loqi bridgy has 10 karma
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snarfed thanks tantek!
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barnabywalters snarfed: wat? no, you’re the one who did all the amazing work on bridgy!
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barnabywalters LET THE KARMA WARS BEGIN
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tantek barnabywalters++ for php-mf2 - there is that better? ;)
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Loqi barnabywalters has 37 karma
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snarfed lol. i graciously accept. very glad (and humbled) that other people like it.
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barnabywalters tantek: hah, thanks :)
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iangreenleaf yeah, I know indieweb is more focused on practical solutions (which is great), where I lean towards slightly more ideological radicalism
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iangreenleaf I just hate that we're at the mercy of the silos.
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tantek iangreenleaf: what's your biggest itch right now?
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tantek Jeena++ for getting indie photos working on his own site!
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Loqi Jeena has 6 karma
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tantek barnabywalters: are you @call_user_func ?!?
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barnabywalters tantek: er…
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barnabywalters probably not
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barnabywalters context?
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tantek https://twitter.com/call_user_func/status/464779343881719808
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@call_user_func [New]taproot/authentication Makes adding indieauth login (client app) and token generation (server app) to your Si… https://packagist.org/packages/taproot/authentication (twitter.com/_/status/464779343881719808)
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iangreenleaf Honestly, I haven't been thinking about indieweb much in the past couple months. But in the past, itches have included:
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iangreenleaf * Wanting access to > 200 Twitter history
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iangreenleaf * Wanting to cross-post to G+ (does bridgy do this now?)
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iangreenleaf * Wanting Twitter RSS feeds
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iangreenleaf * Wanting to watch freaking Craigslist
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snarfed ah i have more bridges to sell iangreenleaf!
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tantek snarfed++ for all the bridges he's selling and at what a bargain!
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Loqi snarfed has 19 karma
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snarfed hah
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iangreenleaf :)
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bret snarfed: you did all the work I was avoiding
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tantek iangreenleaf: well I greatly sympathize with that first itch "access to > 200 Twitter history" - that was one of my biggest early itches too.
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snarfed yup. re that, iangreenleaf, do you mean programmatically? otherwise, see the "request archive" button, bottom of https://twitter.com/settings/account
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barnabywalters tantek: ah, looks like that’s an automated account which announces new packages on packagist.org
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snarfed and programmatically i think the api now does it too
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tantek so that's a good one to start with. IMO, getting simple note posting on your own site (and POSSEing to Twitter) is VERY empowering. I'm happy to help with brainstorming that.
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iangreenleaf yeah, back in the day they didn't even offer that. but yeah, programmatically.
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snarfed re twitter rss feed, http://twitter-atom.appspot.com/
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tantek to be clear, it was the first thing I built in 2009, and as of 2010-01-01 I started posting all "tweets" on my own site first, then POSSE'd to Twitter.
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iangreenleaf in my imaginary world, my library would probably be something that bridgy could use to do stuff
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snarfed sure! bridgy current uses a-u in that way
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tantek iangreenleaf: so once you start posting tweets to your own site, you'll have >200 there in no time at all, and then you can backfill from a Twitter export
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iangreenleaf the idea being that bridgy could focus on the bridge part and not the ugly implementation for each silo
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iangreenleaf yeah, so back to that I should really look into a-u some more :)
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snarfed iangreenleaf: definitely!
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snarfed iangreenleaf: re posting to g+, sadly there's no api. see http://indiewebcamp.com/Google%2B#POSSE . there are a couple examples of faking it as a user though (links on that page)
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iangreenleaf how are you doing it in bridgy, then?
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snarfed tantek++ for POSSEing way before it was cool
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Loqi tantek has 40 karma
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Jeena in my ideal world bridgy would be a lib which I could use in my own code and it would make the added back-urls obsolete
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snarfed iangreenleaf: bridgy doesn't post to g+ (or ig), only to fb and tw
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iangreenleaf ah, so https://indiewebcamp.com/Bridgy misled me then
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snarfed Jeena: you mean, for posting to silos?
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Jeena no, more to getting back likes and comments, etc.
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snarfed iangreenleaf: ah, maybe the term backfeed was misleading
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Jeena if posting would be made easier then sure
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snarfed Jeena: ok. what do you mean by back-urls then?
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Jeena I spend quite some hours of work to get posting to silos working
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Jeena the (reposted from https://jeena.net/photos/2) which I have to add to the post on Twitter or Facebook
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iangreenleaf On a side note, what is the Python screen-scraping situation like these days? Last time I looked, BeautifulSoup had fallen apart in the 2->3 upgrade and there was nothing else good available.
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tantek iangreenleaf: ping KartikPrabhu and bear about Python indieweb libs
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tantek and by ping I mean mention or !talk them
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tantek er, !tell :)
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snarfed iangreenleaf: i only use bs4 moderately, but it works fine for me
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tantek was it also kylewm who was working on Python indieweb libs?
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snarfed tantek: yup
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snarfed Jeena: yup, i can commiserate re: getting posting to silos working
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snarfed Jeena: kylewm recently made bridgy detect rel-syndication links, so if you put those on your posts, you won't need the back-urls any more
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snarfed http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication
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Jeena omg is that true?
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tantek Bridgy just keeps getting more amazing
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Jeena holy shit that is amazing!
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snarfed Jeena: true!
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snarfed great contribution by kylewm, he deserves all the credit
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu,bear,kylewm mind starting an article on http://indiewebcamp.com/Python just listing the Python indieweb projects/libs and the IndieWeb examples thereof? (presumably all your personal sites)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Jeena I admit it is a small move but still, move into the right direction by Tumblr http://www.theverge.com/2014/5/6/5684212/tumblr-declares-war-on-the-internets-identity-crisis letting people use more diverse layouts even within the mobile app
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barnabywalters Jeena: I disagree that having a local copy of bridgy would make canonical URLs in POSSE copies obsolete
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barnabywalters if anything, it makes them even more valuable
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barnabywalters as the canonical copy becomes the only place where all responses from *all* silos are visible
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barnabywalters Jeena: also, great work getting implementing photos on your site!
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@dougmckown @benwerd Looks interesting. Does it have #indieweb functionality? (twitter.com/_/status/464830721568174080)
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tantek the permalinks in POSSE copies provide *user* value -> they direct users to the central location where all the action around the post is visible in one place.
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Jeena I was thinking like that: if you post to twitter you get a tweet-id for that post. Then you can check yourself if someone has mentioned that post. Obviously without a lib this is just too much work.
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: you know your site doesn't actually display in Averia?
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Jeena tantek that is true, and it kind of only is a problem on Twitter, nobody ever complained about that on Facebook for example
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: ha ha yeah, it used to but i haven’t updated it yet :)
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tantek Jeena I like the convention of … or : http://permalink for when there is more content
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tantek and (permalink/path) when there is no more content, but to see the activity
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tantek both are auto-linked
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tantek I think this is what aaronpk is doing currently
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Jeena I got so many complains, people didn't get it. I changed it to: (more at: http://example.com/foo)
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tantek so IMO his implementation is closest to what we have to a best practice for POSSE Twitter copies
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tantek as soon as I get *any* additional value implemented on my notes like webmention display, bridgy etc., then I'm likely to switch from permashortcitations to aaronpk's method
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tantek wow the IIW wiki copies of the notes of IndieWeb IIW sessions kept all the links to specific IndieWeb pages within the notes! Glad I linky linky'd them up right away!!!
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tantek e.g. http://iiw.idcommons.net/Join_the_Indieweb
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tantek oh man, IndieWebCamp 2014 is tied East/West at 6 each!!
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Creators <-- who's going to tip the scales?
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Jeena Hm that is kind of sad http://iamshane.com/videos every video says "No video with supported format and MIME type found." in my Firefox
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Jeena but I like that he is hosting his own videos
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luxagraf hey all, new here but been posting my own version of indieweb content for a while now
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Jeena under which domain luxagraf?
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luxagraf luxagraf.net
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luxagraf looking to move from microdata that's there now to microformats
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luxagraf but wanted to see what the recommendation is with v1 vs v2... i see a lot of people are using both
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Jeena oh nice fluid design, I like!
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luxagraf is that necessary
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Jeena I only use v2
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GWG snarfed: I was thinking about your comment while I was in exile.
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Jeena and I haven't had problems with it
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luxagraf that would be my preference as well, but i didn't know if maybe there were a lot of legacy parsers out there that don't understand v2
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GWG snarfed: The character counting for Twitter.
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GWG snarfed: At least I think you were the one who said it.
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GWG snarfed: I found something that would be easy to implement. http://cssglobe.com/jquery-plugin-simplest-twitterlike-dynamic-character-count-for-textareas/ - Will advise.
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snarfed GWG: ah! remind me what i said
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snarfed ahhh right putting that into your twitter posse ui
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snarfed nice!
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Jeena I think if there are then they will die out soon, and honestly there are not many people consuming microformats yet, so I think it is save to just ignore v1
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GWG snarfed: Someone came up with something already. I just have to implement it.
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snarfed GWG: tantek's code is also good. mine is halfway decent too but python so not so useful for you
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luxagraf Jenna: that's good know. I'll stick with v2 only then. thanks
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Jeena np
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snarfed GWG: yup. obviously also see https://dev.twitter.com/docs/counting-characters , it's the final word
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GWG This seemed to have been designed with 140 characters in mind.
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tantek luxagraf - microformats2 is the easiest of all of them to implement, least code, least impact.
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tantek and most immediately testable (with indiewebify.me etc.) and has an impact on indieweb-indieweb use-cases
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tantek least *size* impact
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luxagraf tantek: right.
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tantek obviously they have a positive impact :)
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GWG Is there an indieweb example of a photo gallery?
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GWG Or a photo archive?
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tantek GWG I think aaronpk was experimenting with photo gallery posts?
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GWG That people think is particularly good.
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tantek or was it barnabywalters maybe?
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tantek hmm - no /gallery page
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GWG tantek: I have a gallery format in Wordpress, and an image format. But, it occurs to me that the archive function of Wordpress could display an archive of image format posts.
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Jeena how do you define "photo gallery"?
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luxagraf what would constitute an indieweb photo gallery?
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tantek GWG - could you start a /gallery stub page with a brief link/summary of the gallery format in Wordpress?
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Jeena is https://jeena.net/photos/ a gallery already?
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GWG Jeena: Well, that's the thing. It can either be....a feed of photos, or a single post entry with multiple photos
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Jeena hm
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tantek Jeena - that looks more like a photo feed than a gallery
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tantek I think a gallery implies some sort of explicit curation or decision-making on the poster to put things into a set
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tantek but anyway, once GWG starts the /gallery page we can document different opinions there ;)
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GWG Yes
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Jeena ah like flickr sets? (for example https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeena/sets/72157644283447305/ )
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Jeena hehe ok
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tantek Jeena - yeah
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luxagraf would this qualify as a gallery? http://luxagraf.net/photos/galleries/florida-apalachicola-area/
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luxagraf (pulled from flickr, but I'm probably going to reverse that pretty soon)
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tantek Jeena, as if it wasn't confusing enough, Flickr also has explicit "Galleries" which are your collections of *other peoples photos*!!
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tantek (they can't contain any of yours)
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tantek and your Flickr *sets* can *only* contain your photos
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tantek so there's no way to curate something which you put your and others' photos into!
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tantek (so frustrating)
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tantek (I think Flickr's distinctions are annoying/useless - gallery/set same thing)
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david.shanske.com created /gallery (+775) "Created page with "== Definition == Just like a photo is a post whose primary content is a single photograph or other image, a gallery can be one of two things: * An archive/feed of photo posts *..."" (view diff)
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tantek oh wait, and there's *albums* too
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tantek aarggghg
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Jeena SoundCloud has sets too but you can have your own or other people tracks there
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tantek haha Jeena your photo of yourself with the t-shirt just made me LOL
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GWG Does that definition seem to make sense?
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Jeena hehe
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david.shanske.com edited /gallery (+8) "/* Definition */" (view diff)
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luxagraf tantek: I'm not sure that's true, people curate LOC photos into their own sets: https://www.flickr.com/photos/11418107@N02/galleries/72157630891433488/
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tantek luxagraf - read the fine print in the UI
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tantek "My LOC Favorites
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tantek A gallery curated by pennylrichardsca… "
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tantek *gallery*
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tantek not set
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tantek per Flickr
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luxagraf tantek: ah, right. my bad
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tantek and yes it's confusing as heck
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aaronpk i have been constantly annoyed that i can't put my own photos in galleris
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tantek GWG I'll give it a shot
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tantek BTW galleries confused the Activity Streams folks too
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aaronpk also they just renamed sets to albums
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david.shanske.com created /album (+56) "Created page with "== Definition == An album is a collection of galleries."" (view diff)
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aaronpk which i guess is a better name, but wow it's a bit late
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GWG There.
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GWG A gallery is a collection of photos. An album is a collection of galleries.
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tantek oh you have to be kidding me. there's hierarchies like "album"?!?
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tantek nevermind that there's the collision with music album
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aaronpk wait when is an album a collection of galliers? wtf?
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Jeena Isn't it weird that we are pro flickr users for almost a decade and nobody understands their UI? :D
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GWG Isn't that the definition in design?
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tantek GWG - not buying the album defn unless you've got a citation to a real world example
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aaronpk yeah citation needed
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tantek GWG definitions don't matter. the content that people publish matters.
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tantek design academics are no better (nor worse) than other academics
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GWG So, would a gallery be a collection of albums then?
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aaronpk I have published albums which are a collection of songs I've written
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GWG Am I inverting it?
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aaronpk I have also published albums of photos according to flickr
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tantek GWG stop creating two levels for no reason
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GWG Okay
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tantek c.f. architecture astrononmy
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david.shanske.com edited /album (-56) "Blanked the page" (view diff)
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tantek s/astrononmy/astronomy
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Loqi tantek meant to say: c.f. architecture astronomy
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aaronpk i have the following "Collections" of "Albums" on flickr https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronpk/collections/
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luxagraf thanks all for the advice on microformats versions, i'll be back around soon
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GWG Okay.
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GWG Album - a blank book for the insertion of photographs, stamps, or pictures.
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GWG Album - a collection of recordings issued as a single item on CD, record, or another medium.
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GWG I blanked the page. I'm still confused. But I think we can agree galleries are a thing.
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GWG But may also be called albums too
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david.shanske.com edited /gallery (+48) "/* Definition */" (view diff)
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GWG I'm ceding the gallery floor for now.
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tantek.com edited /gallery (+638) "use dfn, compress dfn, examples vs. indieweb examples, silo examples, Flickr, see also" (view diff)
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aaronpk ugh i'm so sick of hard drives
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tantek spinning vs. solid state?
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aaronpk not sure if spinning is the source of the problem but sure
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tantek or fixed size vs. elastic?
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aaronpk i think all my backup drives failed
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tantek oh F***
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tantek :( :( :(
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aaronpk as i was copying files to a new drive
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barnabywalters tantek: OOI, what is an elastic hard drive?
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aaronpk "ext3_readdir: bad entry in directory #2383875: inode out of bounds"
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barnabywalters aaronpk: aw nasty — nightmare error message :(
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aaronpk i've been having bad luck with hardware lately
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GWG tantek: Your definition is better.
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snarfed aaronpk: ugh. fscking awful. condolences in advance, hopefully you won't need them :/
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+260) "/* Taproot */ linked to taproot/authentication and taproot/subscriptions libraries" (view diff)
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Jeena Hehe jesus christ almost 90k followers :D https://instagram.com/baddiewinkle
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bret ol
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bret l
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Jeena but lol her Twitter is even kind of better https://twitter.com/baddiewinkle/status/456952673128828928 (and she has her own domain but it only redirects to her youtube channel)
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@baddiewinkle Having dinner at hooters! What a babe https://twitter.com/baddiewinkle/status/456952673128828928/photo/1 (twitter.com/_/status/456952673128828928)
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tantek barnabywalters: elastic hard drive = S3 for example
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aaronpk DataVolume Raid 0 0% 15.86 TB Good
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barnabywalters tantek: ah okay
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aaronpk NO.. NOT GOOD
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aaronpk also I don't have 16TB here wtf
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aaronpk do I dare reboot?
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snarfed oh man
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tantek aaronpk - do you have someone you can pair with?
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aaronpk not really
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tantek backup / drive failure is exceptionally stressful and having another set of eyes can be very helpful
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aaronpk this is on a seagate NAS, so I have a weird amount of access to it
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aaronpk i think this is the last time I try RAID stuff, usually ends up being more complicated than it's worth.
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kylewm.com created /Python (+1564) "Add the Python libraries and projects that I know about" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Python (-2) "/* Libraries */ rm extra square brackets" (view diff)
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tantek wow I just found a search for which Bing *blows away* Google
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tantek compare http://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Adudequote.com+plan to https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Adudequote.com+plan
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kylewm.com edited /Python (+279) "added small section for Python-specific hosting options" (view diff)
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tantek reason I bring this up for indieweb: Search using a search engine search box: http://indiewebcamp.com/search#search_box
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tantek involves a "site: … " parameter and you want it to be as thorough as possible
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kylewm aaronpk: we had a RAID array go down here at work recently and lose a ton of data, gave me the impression it was more a false sense of security than anything
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tantek if that Bing vs. Google test is indicative of "site:.." param thoroughness handling, Bing may be better for use as an indieweb search box
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Loqi kylewm: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 16 minutes ago: mind starting an article on http://indiewebcamp.com/Python just listing the Python indieweb projects/libs and the IndieWeb examples thereof? (presumably all your personal sites)
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Jeena fun fact, I had this for a long time on my own website at the bottom, but I used Yahoo search for it. But after a couple of years I just removed it because Yahoo search is so bad ^^
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tantek sadly I didn't find the quote about "things going wrong when the plan gets too complicated" that I was looking for
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tantek Jeena - Yahoo search is now just reskinned Bing search
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tantek and has been since like 2009?
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tantek Bing's "skin" is cleaner and faster than Yahoo's. So no reason to use Yahoo search anymore.
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Jeena I think I removed it around 2011 or something
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kylewm aaronpk: sorry that sounded insensitive, just agreeing (unknowledgeably) that Raid seems like more trouble than it's worth
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aaronpk yeah turns out things aren't as magic as they are in theory
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aaronpk 1) when you buy a device like a NAS both drives are from the same generation so they are likely to fail at the same time
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aaronpk 2) if you back up your NAS to another NAS but then one NAS fails in a way that makes all folders show up empty, then you end up deleting all the files on the backup of the backup
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Jeena oh that was less painfull then i thought, added 5 lines of code to enable webmentions for my photos
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kylewm tantek: where would be a good place to link to /Python from?
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tantek kylewm perhaps /projects
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tantek.com created /backup (+184) "stub" (view diff)
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aaronpk I hereby declare this week the week of aaronpk's unintentional digital cleansing
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kylewm.com edited /projects (+14) (view diff)
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GWG aaronpk, sympathies
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kylewm does anyone else find the hierarchy on /Projects to be 1 level too deep? is it ok to reformat?
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kylewm.com edited /projects (+101) "/* See Also */ added python link" (view diff)
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kylewm actually just removing the = IndieWeb Projects = header accomplishes what I want, any objections?
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kylewm.com edited /projects (+4) "flatten the hierarchy a little" (view diff)
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paulmunday.net created /User:Paulmunday.net (+186) "Created page with "Lives in Portland Oregon. Personal site [paulmunday.net] built using [http://flask.pocoo.org Flask]. The code is available on github: [https://github.com/tallus/monomatapa Mono..."" (view diff)
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paulmunday.net edited /User:Paulmunday.net (+27) (view diff)
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aaronpk now investigating S3 pricing
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@IdentityWoman RT @erinjo: Last thought of the night courtesy of @identitywoman - We're not a science experiment any more. #indieweb #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/464855001135738880)
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@PeteFleck RT @erinjo: Last thought of the night courtesy of @identitywoman - We're not a science experiment any more. #indieweb #iiw (twitter.com/_/status/464855537893384192)
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kylewm any got the skinny on the Idno -> Known name change?
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Jeena hm, how should I mark up my photos index site? I think it would be cool as a h-feed, I will try that
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KevinMarks_ instapaper ships fragmentions support
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kylewm KevinMarks_: wow really? they just started?
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KevinMarks_ the new highlights feature exports fragmention links to twitter+facebook
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kylewm wow, that's HUGE
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aaronpk whoa! example?
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Jeena what is fragmentions?
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Loqi fragmentions is not in the source
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aaronpk Jeena: http://indiewebcamp.com/fragmention
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Jeena so with this you can link like you would to <div id="foo"> with #foo but there doesn't need to be a id or anchor for that in the website?
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aaronpk yep
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Jeena and if the phrase is there more then once it jumps to the first one or something
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kbs aaronpk: also considering glacier maybe? at least, for archival needs. (also tarsnap, if that's something you haven't already considered...)
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aaronpk yeah looking at glacier too
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kbs gdrive pricing is actually pretty good for some things, and no need to also worry about calculating GET/network costs
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aaronpk i don't really trust a relatively new service from google for this
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kbs nods
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aaronpk and dropbox is too expensive for the amount of data i have
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aaronpk oh interesting, so Glacier is 10x the price for the number of requests, but 1/3 the price per gb per month
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rascul http://backupsy.com
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aaronpk yeah i'm not gonna trust any company for long term data archiving that hasn't been around for >10 years
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kbs amazon pricing is kinda tricky to wrap my head around. [and, also suggest tarsnap for a unix-friendly approach]
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bret IndieBox hit boingboing! https://feedbin.com
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bret ack i mean http://boingboing.net/2014/05/08/crowdfunding-indie-box-a-huma.html#more-301633
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kbs https://www.tarsnap.com/ - also easy to figure out costs. prepaid, so no surprises
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aaronpk otherwise i'm just back to essentially my same workflow of migrating storage solutions every 2-3 years
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rascul tarsnap looks interesting
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kylewm I've been trying to figure out what to do with all these picodollars
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aaronpk tarsnap is also like 8x the price of aws
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rascul aaronpk i been using backupsy for a little while now, seems fine so far for my needs
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rascul but it's not my only backup thing either
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aaronpk "seems fine so far" is about the same as my hard drives seeming fine so far
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kbs you also get colin percival :)
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rascul yeah "seems fine so far" doesn't hold a lot of weight for stuff that needs to last
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kbs speaking of migrating storage solutions, that's what I do too :) I just call it being inspired by the tradition of rebuilding shinto shrines every 20 years
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kbs well, all I do is rsync from (drives-2years) -> (drives-current), but it sounds so much better to think of it as following some esoteric buddhist tradition
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kbs sorry to hear about the fsck :( that really sucks
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GWG aaronpk: Tell me what you decide. I keep meaning to explore online
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bret did benwerd every make a post about the idno -> known change?
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bret ever*
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aaronpk kbs: yeah that is what i was in the middle of when the original HD blew up
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kbs aaronpk: aargh!
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aaronpk S3 / Glacier is sounding so much better
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aaronpk I think it'll cost me maybe $40/mo tops
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kbs how many terabytes?
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snarfed bret: i haven't seen one yet
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aaronpk less than 1 if I don't include my movie collection which I can't anymore cause it is apparently gone anyway
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kbs aaronpk: gotcha. :/ hope you recover enough after the fsck
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bret aaronpk: :(
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kbs plonks down money for another external hard drive
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bret have a redundant storage space for movies, but i dont trust it
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aaronpk kbs: luckily they're getting cheap, $120 for 3TB!
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Jeena I really enjoy working on my own website (instead for example producing content which I put into a silo), it really feels like I am doing something worth like, which will be really useful in the future.
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bnvk since y'all talkin HD, have any of you tried connecting USB drives to RaspPi's ?
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kbs aaronpk: yea. I have 2 external hard-drives + (gdrive + dropbox) for my relatively modest needs - and your experience is telling me it's time to roll-over one more set of drives
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aaronpk super not interested in running a RaspPi...
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bnvk how come?
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kbs bnvk: not raspberry pi, but do use openwrt on one of those storage+router-boxes (for yet another archiving thing)
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snarfed Jeena: glad to hear it! your site is coming along great
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aaronpk i don't want another moving part in the stack
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aaronpk i'm comfortable with ubuntu and the update lifecycle of LTS
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snarfed LTS++
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Loqi LTS has 1 karma
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rascul raspberry pi isn't so special when compared to what's available now
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kbs what's a good alternative? I'm looking to move my scripts off the openwrt thing -- just need some low-power box to power a usb drive, that's about it.
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rascul depends on what you need i guess
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rascul i'm not saying a raspberry pi is no good though!
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kbs just power a usb drive :) and well, ethernet
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kbs I was actually thinking about the raspberry pi for that - 3w + usb drive power seems a good fit.
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kbs I currently use it to archie my gmail and facebook
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kbs *archive
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rascul but when compared to things like some of the arduino or beagle boards (among other), the pi isn't as special as it used to be
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rascul eh i didn't mean arduino
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rascul i meant olinuxino
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bnvk ah
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rascul mostly because the raspberry pi is getting old
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rascul can't remember which boards off the top of my head, but i recently saw a couple quad core sbc for <$100
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rascul quad core might be overkill for some sbc applications though!
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kbs what I'd like to do is roughly like this. Once a day, power up a drive, run a couple of scripts to download email from gmail, and photos from facebook. Then, power down drive, and maybe go to sleep, something like that.
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rascul kbs for that use, i would just get whatever i could find that's cheapest
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rascul no need for a fancy, new fangled sbc with all the nifty features if you don't use them
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kbs I'm running a router+openwrt right now (forget the model.) Not very happy with the quality of the hardware - and always worried whether the thing will crash in the middle of a write
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rascul ahh
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kbs I'm not powering down the drive now - that's kinda dumb of me
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kbs so - while I'm changing that setup, figured I might as well get some less funky hardware
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bnvk kbs: it is one of my dreams to hack snarfed's Birdgy code and use that to poll my social data in mbox style flat files that then get indexed by my Mailpile
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kbs haha
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rascul mbox? why no maildir?!
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rascul the future has left you behind!
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kbs I just blogged about something related yesterday - http://kbsriram.com/2014/05/sailing-through-my-online-life.html - documents some details about the gmail/facebook setup on my laptop
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bnvk well, maildir, mbox, something like that
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bnvk not quite sure the details, and how to best segment it
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kbs (I have something similar running on the openwrt thing as well - this is at my friends place...)
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kbs probably has a few too many archiving cron jobs...
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bnvk as it does not make sense to save every lil activity (fav, retweet, mention, tweet) into it's own file
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kbs nods
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kbs For facebook, I only archive photos from specific people - that's the only thing I found I cared about
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kbs bnvk: are you using a raspberry pi at the moment? Or just toying with the idea?
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rascul one of these days i'm gonna check out this mailpile
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rascul boxes are silly, i prefer piles :)
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kbs is sadly old enough to think of "piles" as referring to a medical condition...
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kbs (not that I suffer from it, thank god :)
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rascul i thought of it as a pile of pillows that i could dive onto
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rascul because a box of pillows isn't so great for diving onto
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Jeena Damn the iPhone doesn't add any data to the image when you take it and upload it through safari :-(
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kbs will manfully refrain from various unseemly piles related jokes
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rascul oops i accidentlaly deployed a dev version of a site to the live version and now it's broken!
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rascul damnit now i gotta fix it
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bnvk kbs: yah, I run one at my place. I was running Etherpad on it, but the DB got to 1GB and started having problems
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kbs bnvk: aha, nice. Db running on internal sdcard?
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barnabywalters bnvk: wow, how much are you using that etherpad?!
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rascul Jeena i seem to remember that android does to my images, but that probably isn't much use to you if you're using an iphone
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bnvk yah
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kylewm bret: I'm wondering about "Known" too, we need to poke benwerd for the details. The new name is growing on me though
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barnabywalters 1GB is a lot of text files
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rascul or a few big ones!
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bnvk barnabywalters: not sure, but I think it is because it saves the history as you go
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barnabywalters bnvk: oh sure, but that’s still a whole lot of text
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bnvk we've prolly made like 35+ or so documents
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bnvk maybe more
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bnvk all fairly long + with chats
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Jeena My android does that too and it is my main phone. I just tried with my old iPhone for fun, but it wasn't fun to see, I hoped for geo position and more fun data.
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Jeena I should test the Firefox OS devise
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rascul old iphone? maybe the newer ones do it? i dunno
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Loqi I agree
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kbs bnvk: curious - errors originating from read/write errors on sdcard, or something else?
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kylewm aaronpk: were you about to sort out the information about Amazon Glacier transfer rates? It seemed super convoluted
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Jeena I don't think so, it is a OS thing, not a hardware thing I assume
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rascul Jeena https://blog.mozilla.org/press/2014/05/zte-starts-sales-of-open-c-firefox-os-phone-on-ebay/
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bnvk kbs: not sure exactly, the CPU was pegged at 97% and docs just kinda stopped loading
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Jeena I have a Alcatel One Touch Fire which I got last year in august when I was on vaccation in Poland
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rascul ahh ok
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kbs bnvk: ah, interesting. (and thanks for feedback on experiences :)
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bnvk ah wait, I think it's a NPM update error as new docs seem to be able to create no prob
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bnvk n/m, that killed the daemon, hehe, I think it's the DB size still
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kbs bnvk: if there are any interesting messages from dmesg (or it's equivalent) would love to see them :)
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Jeena hehe Firefox OS at least adds the Camera model: QCAM-AA to the exif data.
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rascul kbs oh i meant to say earlier, maybe you can implement a wake on lan type implementation so your little computer can power down (almost) completely instead of just powering down the drive
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rascul almost completely because nic still needs power!
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kbs rascul: hm, that's an idea. (thinking through how that my work for my needs at least...)
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kbs *might work
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rascul gotta make sure the nic supports it though, then you'll probably want to setup a cron job somewhere to send the magic packet out every so often
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rascul and of course have the little computer shut down when it finishes it's stuff
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kbs *nod* think the mechanics of it could be sorted out, more about when/who would send it the magic packet - it seems to be a question of turtles or something :)
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rascul i like turtles
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kbs (unrelated - it would be nice for me if I could run more powerful apps - I'm limited at the moment to writing the jobs in lua in openwrt. It works, but just barely)
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rascul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMNry4PE93Y
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tallpaul kbs: you might want to checkout cubieboards - Raspberry Pi like with a SATA port
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rascul i've never been a lua fan, probably because i've never had the need or desire to use it
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kbs tallpaul: ah, thank you for that pointer
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rascul cubie... i seem to remember them being pricey?
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rascul olinuxino is good though :)
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rascul or maybe i'm just thinking of a specific cubie
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kbs uses whatever language is handy :)
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tallpaul I seem to remember more than the Pi but better specced
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rascul my remembery could be wrong, i have a brain the size of a peanut
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tallpaul I have one at home, though I've yet to get round to setting it up properly
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rascul and the mental capacity of an earthworm
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rascul no wonder i like to dig holes
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KevinMarks_ hm, what can we do to promote indieweb solution huffduffer over this: http://www.fastcompany.com/3030236/most-innovative-companies/listen-later-introducing-stitchers-instapaper-for-audio
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: have some sort of mobile app
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 19 minutes ago: mind starting an article on http://indiewebcamp.com/Python just listing the Python indieweb projects/libs and the IndieWeb examples thereof? (presumably all your personal sites)
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KevinMarks_ I have a mobile app - Antennapod
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aaronpk oh great now I need to make a /PHP page
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KevinMarks_ https://github.com/danieloeh/AntennaPod
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: oh did not know
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KevinMarks_ it's an open source android podcatcher, handy
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KartikPrabhu I'll try it out. I currently use BeyondPod... but I'll look at this one :)
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kbs is also an avid user of AntennaPod
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KevinMarks_ I switched to it after Listen died, so I know I'll be able to patch it if needed
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kbs oh - is that what huffduffer does! (realization comes late..)
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks_: But my point was that people gravitate towards an integrated experience. Website+App
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kbs I guess technically I could also write a little thing that dumps xml links into my dropbox/gdrive, and point antennapod at it
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kbs oh - it lets me subscribe to others :) should learn to read a bit more before opening my mouth
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kbs oh, it's adactio's invention too - neato.
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kartikprabhu.com edited /Python (+65) "/* Projects */ added details" (view diff)
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j12t Indie Box article in Dutch: http://www.ispam.nl/archives/39844/diy-hosting-met-indie-box-kans-of-kansloos/
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kbs huffduffer++ shame on me for not having found this earlier
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Loqi huffduffer has 1 karma
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snarfed oh man agreed, huffduffer is brilliant
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snarfed huffduffer++
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Loqi huffduffer has 2 karma
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snarfed signing up now
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bear.im edited /Python (+9) "updating entry" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Python (+113) "added Requests" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Python (+38) "small edit" (view diff)
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bear.im edited /Python (+1) "/* Projects */" (view diff)
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bear laughs at the description for the Python lead-in link: "... to the small, vocal minority of IWC Python developers"
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Loqi bear: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 6 minutes ago: mind starting an article on http://indiewebcamp.com/Python just listing the Python indieweb projects/libs and the IndieWeb examples thereof? (presumably all your personal sites)
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tantek to everyone *except* aaronpk, could you add your backup services, storage, software suggestions to http://indiewebcamp.com/backup ? that way it's easier to check them out later as a set instead of having to dig thru IRC. Thanks much!
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tantek (and I only said *except* aaronpk so as to not distract him from his recovery procedures :/ )
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aaronpk hahaha oh I thought that was because mine failed so they should not be added :)
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tantek no I figured that was a possible misinterpretation hence the reason for the except
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tantek and I'm not even going to ask you to document what failed so that others may avoid that approach. ahem. :/
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tantek ;)
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tantek KevinMarks: re: what you can do to promote huffduffer - perhaps start by creating http://indiewebcamp.com/Huffduffer and adding a brief summary!
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tantek creating a page like that with description plus indiewebness (what tech it supports) would like help more than huffduffer++ :)
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j12t Re backup: we have figured that one out with Indie Box
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j12t # indie-box-admin backup -o <file.zip>
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kbs j12t: would love to hear what you are doing?
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tantek j12t I disagree per my questions yesterday
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tantek j12t until you have seamless restore to a brand new indiebox, you don't have backup figured ourt
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tantek s/ourt/out
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Loqi tantek meant to say: j12t until you have seamless restore to a brand new indiebox, you don't have backup figured out
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j12t okay, fair, I was commenting above re backup of an indie site
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tantek same comment
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j12t the long-distance part is not quite there yet
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j12t but the short-distance one is there
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tantek until you have seamless restore of an indie site e.g. to a brand new web hosting service, you don't have backup figured out
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tantek nope, until you have restore figured out, you don't have backup figured out. full stop. you might have something potentially recoverable, and you might not.
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j12t as root, you can do basically an “indie-box-admin backup | ssh new-host indie-box-admin restore”
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j12t the trick is to do that user-friendly, and if the old host is dead
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tantek j12t - assuming old host is dead is *required*
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tantek per aaronpk's scenario - dead harddrives
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j12t (command is paraphrased, and I don’t have time to look it up in detail)
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tantek this is the *typical* restore problem
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j12t I agree with you that that needs more work
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tantek regardless, document what you *have* figured out either in a "backup" section in the /Indie_Box article, or in an "Indie Box" section on the /backup page. Your choice ;)
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j12t See http://indieboxproject.org/wiki/Backup_File_Format
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j12t I’d much rather have it in one place on the web
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tantek great - create a brief stub that just links to that!
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kbs j12t: okay I see - thanks :)
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tantek agreed with DRY :)
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aaronpk is starting to disagree with DRY, cause if I had a bunch of copies of things all over then not as much would be lost
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kbs ^^ :-)
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tantek no you wouldn't know which was authoritative, you'd likely still lose stuff, but then not know about it?
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aaronpk and in some cases lower-fidelity versions would be better than no versions
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tantek also, replication serves a different purpose than DRY
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snarfed heh. i can definitely understand the sentiment. replicating is different from repeating yourself
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snarfed heh. jinx, tantek :P
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tantek :D
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tantek the problem with DRY violations is requiring updating multiple locations, in a non-trivial way
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tantek replication setups are *supposed* to be automatic
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upon2020.com edited /backup (+273) "added link to Indie Box backup format" (view diff)
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kbs (Do Replicate Yourself is the new backronym then? :)
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tantek kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 8 karma
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aaronpk the problem is when the automatic replication deletes the other copy
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tantek who verifies the replicators?
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tantek (insert sci-fi premise here)
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tantek versioning is supposed to help with the replication deletion problem
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aaronpk man even my half-deleted backup looks like it's completely corrupted
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tantek :(
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tantek.com edited /backup (+73) "headers, see also" (view diff)
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upon2020.com edited /Indie_Box (+156) "added article" (view diff)
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aaronpk "Bad file descriptor" trying to copy things
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j12t Is there some place where somebody has collected articles and/or journalists who have written pieces friendly to the cause?
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tantek at some point it would be interesting exploring what it would take to use a silo as a backup of one's indieweb presence
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/Posts_about_the_IndieWeb
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tantek j12t - it sounds like you're talking about *news* about the *indieweb*, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/news :)
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j12t Just looking to augment my journalist spreadsheet :-)
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bret.io edited /backup (+951) "Added jekyll backup strategy" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /PHP (+275) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /php (+16) "r" (view diff)
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bret.io created /git (+101) "Created page with "{{ stub }} Git is a popular distributed source control management system available on all platforms."" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /python (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Python (+26) "see also PHP ;)" (view diff)
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aaronpk the other solution to this backup problem is to just not care about keeping things
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tantek aaronpk - well, or keep fewer things
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tantek it's a spectrum between TB and 0
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aaronpk http://cyborganthropology.com/Digital_Hoarding
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bret aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 449 karma
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tantek throughout college I kept single floppy discipline - that is, everything digital I cared about fit on a single 1.4MB Floppy. crazy huh?
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tantek which made backing up, versioning etc. *trivial*
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bret tantek: wow!
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bret just make lots of copies of that floppy
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tantek there's likely some equivalent today with storage capacity of a cheap (<$1) USB stick or microSD.
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tantek bret, right, and label with the datetime, and chuck into a pile
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bret http://www.saardrimer.com/pics/dctf.jpg
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tantek collect piles per year etc.
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tantek lol
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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bret you could do something similar with git projects.... clone to all devices, backup with free services
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tantek.com edited /PHP (+1) "." (view diff)
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aaronpk|fail my backup server just went offline, and now my main home server just went offline
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tantek aaronpk - are you sure you're not under attack?
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aaronpk|fail heh
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aaronpk|fail maybe I should go home and check
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tantek these are all very low probability events that are occuring nearly coincidentally
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bret aaronpk|fail: you are no longer a cyborg
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aaronpk|fail i'm trying to think how they could be related
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bret beep boop
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tantek.com edited /Python (+121) "dfn" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+357) "/* personal site */" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /User:Kylewm.com (+34) "/* other ideas */" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, obvious relation: you
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tantek hence suspicion of a personal attack
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bret.io created /github-pages (+20) "Redirected page to [[github]]" (view diff)
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bret.io created /Bitbucket (+145) "Created page with "{{ stub }} Bitbucket is a popular alternative to [[github]] as it offers free git individual repository hosting for public and private projects."" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Bitbucket (+5) "Minor Rewording" (view diff)
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kylewm.com edited /Bitbucket (+16) (view diff)
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bret.io created /node.js (+266) "Stubbed out node.js page" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (-397) "/* Project Description */ Removed dead links to out of date info" (view diff)
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tantek bummer that links died, perhaps note that as criticism?
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tantek .
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aaronpk so... home internet failing seems to have been unrelated
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aaronpk just really weird timing
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bret.io edited /Smallest_Federated_Wiki (+34) "/* Project Description */ Added the install command" (view diff)
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bret tantek: Ed deleted his repo as far as I could tell
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bret Ward is still plugging away at SFW
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bret with a working npm install, getting a working wiki is trivial
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bret its pretty rad, really refreshing
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kbsriram.com edited /backup (+1297) "kbs notes" (view diff)
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kbs not specific to indieweb :/ hope that's ok - mainly a pointer to jwz's polemic on backups
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kbs and a chance to talk about also keeping independent backs of email, etc
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kbs s/backs/backups