#indiewebcamp 2014-05-03

2014-05-03 UTC
scor, paulcp and KevinMarks2 joined the channel
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kyank
tantek: FYI, WDC14 will indeed be posting videos of all the talks. It will just take them a month or two to edit them all.
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bret
kyank++
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Loqi
kyank has 1 karma
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bret
taking this debate over to indiechat
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snarfed
a sign that your unit tests are written at the right level: big refactoring, 229 additions/215 deletions in the actual source, only 2 out of 702 lines in the tests had to change
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snarfed
unittests++
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Loqi
unittests has 4 karma
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snarfed
*have*, loqi, have
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tantek
re: faves vs. likes - I called them "props"
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kyank
tantek: FYI, WDC14 will indeed be posting videos of all the talks. It will just take them a month or two to edit them all.
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tantek
kyank great!
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tantek
re: favorites vs. likes. including +1, Digg thumbs up etc.: http://tantek.com/2011/220/b1/web-actions-a-new-building-block#web-action-motivations (scroll down to "props")
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kyank
The videos will appear here: http://www.webdirections.org/videos/
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tantek
gRegor`, aaronpk, KevinMarks ^^^
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@t
Thanks @maxine @johnallsopp! Had fun with #WDC14 closing keynote. Everyone has their #indieweb homework assignment. :) (ttk.me t4Vs1)
(twitter.com/_/status/462409572083585024)
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kevinyank.com
edited /Falcon (-7) "Fix broken logo due to Twitter avatar URL change"
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gRegor`
!tell tantek That reminds me of xanga.com back in the day. They had "eProps." You could give 1, 2, or no eProps along with your comment.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kyank
aaronpk: Facebook not currently supported by IndieAuth, correct?
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aaronpk
Correct, Facebook doesn't return useful HTML in public profile pages
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kyank
aaronpk: I understand why not (backlink is buried in JavaScript page rendering nonsense), but I’m curious why the greyed-out logo is shown under Authentication providers currently supported on https://indieauth.com.
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kyank
aaronpk: Was it supported at one time and the logo greyed out because it had to be removed?
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aaronpk
I don't know, maybe a passive aggressive attempt at shaming them into returning real HTML
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kyank
OK. :)
dybskiy, dybskiy_, squeakytoy, netweb, j12t, snarfed, KevinMarks2, anos, kyank, bear_, eay, ngoldman, hugoroyd, dshanske, benward, jancborchardt, bigbluehat_, rknLA, JonathanNeal, tommorris_, Phae, lmjabreu, b0bg0d___, niven, fmarier, squeakytoy2, gRegor`, dshanske_ and erikmaarten joined the channel
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@t
posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462485392005271552)
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Loqi
tantek: gRegor` left you a message 4 hours, 50 minutes ago: That reminds me of xanga.com back in the day. They had "eProps." You could give 1, 2, or no eProps along with your comment.
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@benwerd
RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462485578122944512)
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tantek
gRegor`: that's pretty funny
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@flinklabs
Great to hear @t talk about the indieweb at #wdc14. Brought back great memories of http://www.neuronwave.com/bcb/ from 2003 and eTech 2004
(twitter.com/_/status/462488322279874561)
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@lnoogn
RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462491020240777216)
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@joshgillies
Thanks to @t not only for his excellent closing talk at #wdc14 but also this #indieweb sticker! :) / @indiewebcamp https://twitter.com/joshgillies/status/462492338191757312/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/462492338191757312)
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@gorhal
RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462505339787948032)
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KevinMarks
kyank, aaronpk: facebook did have proper, crawlable rel="me" at one point
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KevinMarks
then when google actually crawled them, they shut it off
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@sufw
RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462509950246219776)
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@rwDmp
"@t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" Indieweb just takes power from silos and adds it to search engines. So whattedealyo
(twitter.com/_/status/462514513099886592)
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@rvagg
RT @t: posted #WDC14 talk "The Once and Future #IndieWeb" slides: http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover and notes+Q&A https://etherpad.mozilla.org/wdc14 (ttk.me t4Vs2)
(twitter.com/_/status/462530830280056832)
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Loqi
Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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indie-visitor
Mel
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barnabywalters
greetings Melissa! welcome to #indiewebcamp
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Melissa_k
Hi there, thanks!
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bnvk
!tell tantek really great slide show, especially love the matrix silo images ;)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@robdolin
@t Thanks for sharing both slides and etherpad. I had trouble with slides on my @WindowsPhone. Are there #IndieWeb folks in #Seattle?
(twitter.com/_/status/462574640636755968)
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Bridgy (+89) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ added waterpigs.co.uk example"
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@sentience
Spent a few hours today moving http://kevinyank.comkevinyank.com to @jekyllrb in preparation for @indiewebcamp adventure (and new writing!).
(twitter.com/_/status/462602076678144000)
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@sentience
Spent a few hours today moving http://kevinyank.com to @jekyllrb in preparation for @indiewebcamp adventure (and new writing!).
(twitter.com/_/status/462602758063812608)
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Loqi
hehe
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aaronpk
does bridgy pull replies from G+ for "communities" too?
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@kevinmarks
“a homepage URL is a more powerful and flexible way for authors to invite the curious to learn more” http://nedbatchelder.com//blog/201405/github_monoculture.html #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/462627693607919617)
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aaronpk
it's about time for indieauth to get a logo
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KevinMarks3
Let's hope the indieauth logo is better than the OAuth one
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aaronpk
indeed
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aaronpk
maybe we need an IndieAuth sloth instead of the OAuth cat
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: the squashed oauth cat?
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KevinMarks3
The alla
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bnvk
hehe a sloth
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KevinMarks3
s/alla/alleged OAuth bug had a better logo than OAuth /
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Loqi
KevinMarks3 meant to say: The alleged OAuth bug had a better logo than OAuth 
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aaronpk
that was a ridiculous logo
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barnabywalters
aaronpk: very AI
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KevinMarks3
Is that the i in team?
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aaronpk
KevinMarks3: you said that last time too :D http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-02-05/line/1391635119
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KevinMarks3
Clearly it works for me
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KevinMarks3
That's a better referent than subway tokens (which I didn't get as by the time I went to nyc they were mag stripes)
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KevinMarks3
I like it, it has a keyhole resonance too
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aaronpk
i could put key teeth on it too
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bnvk
arronpk: I rather like that logo
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barnabywalters
so here’s what it looks like next to a sign-in box: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/indieauth-logo-inplace.png
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barnabywalters
only comment I’d make is that it looks a little like a warning sign
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aaronpk
ooh good point
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aaronpk
i could round it out, might make it look friendlier
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barnabywalters
maybe — triangle road signs to tend to have rounded corners though
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bnvk
it kind reminds me of the Airwalk (shoes) logo
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bnvk
hehe
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bnvk
a lil spy eye
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aaronpk
barnabywalters: how's that look on your sign-in form?
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aaronpk
should work as a favicon too
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aaronpk
this stuff is super confusing and I want to finish it and be done with it
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bret
the favicon stuff?>
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aaronpk
no the auth stuff
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bret
oh heh, yes
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aaronpk
I'm trying to figure out if IndieAuth can be built completely on top of OpenID Connect or if it's only built on top of OAuth 2.0 (like OpenID Connect is)
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aaronpk
cause it's solving the same problem OpenID connect is but for a less general case, where all IDs and users are represented by URLs
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KevinMarks3
Not sure about blue, too Facebook/twitter?
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KevinMarks3
Could you use the Indie Web camp orange/red palette?
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aaronpk
my hunch is that will look too much like a warning/danger again
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bnvk
I agree with that notion
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KevinMarks3
Hmm. Microformats did well with the green palette
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KevinMarks3
(we had an orange variant too, that got less traction)
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KartikPrabhu
might I suggest just black and white?
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bnvk
I think the blue relating to F/T isn't necessarily a bad thing- it creates an error of familiarity
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aaronpk
here's what it looks like with the microformats color palette http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/indieauth-logo-green-20140503-110726.png
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: I designed it so that if it is rendered as black and white it will still be recognizable, but I think it's important to have color too.
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: hmm fair enough
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KartikPrabhu
might I also suggest that the A be in white and the surrounding space be in colour?
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KartikPrabhu
negative of all previous attempts
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KevinMarks3
I like the green
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: that would require that the border become part of the logo, and I think would look too heavy
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KevinMarks3
I keep imagining a smiley face in the circle...
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aaronpk
border+background
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aaronpk
KevinMarks3: that's probably good :)
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KartikPrabhu
I feel the border is too heavy at present
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KevinMarks3
Is the white part of the logo? If you overlay on a grey, it stays white?
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aaronpk
KevinMarks3: I was thinking it was actually a hole
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kylewm
is it possible to make an svg where the border would be relatively thicker at smaller sizes?
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KevinMarks3
Then you get a problem with dark backgrounds
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aaronpk
kylewm: not that I know of
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bret
looking at the favicon with a black background it looks kinda like a groovy 60's font
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kylewm
that's kinda the problem with one logo for all sizes i guess, borders too thick at large sizes, too thin when small
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aaronpk
yeah typically you have to make several versions of the logo for different sizes and media
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aaronpk
especially when you start getting into small raster land, it's common to make a hand-crafted version of a logo choosing each of the 16x16 pixels carefully
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kylewm
gotcha
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aaronpk
oh wow, openid connect tokens have a property to indicate the method of authentication that was used
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aaronpk
" JSON array of strings that are identifiers for authentication methods used in the authentication. For instance, values might indicate that both password and OTP authentication methods were used."
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aaronpk
that is useful so that an endpoint consuming the token can know how strong the tokens are, so it could implement two-factor auth
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aaronpk
e.g. my micropub endpoint could require tokens that were generated using one method from both lists: ['twitter.com','github.com','google.com'], ['sms','totp']
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KevinMarks3
Hmm, I think white inner on black would show up better. The person in the A becomes manifest
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aaronpk
the space under the A would still be black though
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aaronpk
side note: it is super weird to context-switch between designing a logo and designing an auth protocol
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aaronpk
I think if the logo is going to be on black then the entire thing should be white
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KevinMarks3
No, make the space under the A white too
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KevinMarks3
Then it's clear that you're making the figure/ground split
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aaronpk
ah but I don't think I want it to be blatant, just implied
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: like the b/w version, without actual borders
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aaronpk
yeah as b/w it would not have borders, either the white-on-black or the black-on-white
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KartikPrabhu
then why border on the colour version?
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KartikPrabhu
why not just use green-on-white
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aaronpk
i kind of like the depth it has with the border
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KartikPrabhu
fwiw: i quite like the borderless one. simpler design
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KartikPrabhu
I'm a bit confused about the value-class-pattern. http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing says that value class pattern does not affect URL properties but http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_u-_property has a value-class-pattern step...
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KartikPrabhu
maybe I should ask on #microformats
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KevinMarks
the microformats2 is probably more recent
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KartikPrabhu
yes but it links back to the value-class-pattern page
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aaronparecki.com
edited /auth-brainstorming (+380) "/* Authorization Endpoint */"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: hm the issue I have with that is the white background is kind of dangling, not anchored to anything
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KevinMarks
well, it's like the NBA logo
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aaronpk
the NBA logo is surrounded by a white border which gives it something to attach to
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KevinMarks
ah, I saw it on white
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aaronpk
so imagine the A being a physical object, where would the holes be. i.e. it should be possible to do this with the IndieAuth logo: http://icons.iconarchive.com/icons/iconshock/nba/256/nba-logo-icon.png
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aaronpk
ha yeah like that
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KevinMarks
interesting that the colours are converged
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aaronpk
maybe that's a good reason to use blue
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KevinMarks
If green = open, that's a good association
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KevinMarks
blue=corporate
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aaronparecki.com
edited /auth-brainstorming (+763) "/* Token Endpoint */"
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aaronpk
if I ever make an indieauth iphone app it would probably not be good if there was yet another blue icon
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aaronpk
The IndieAuth logo is not too similar I think
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KartikPrabhu
!tell barnabywalters: does php-mf2 implement the full value-class-pattern parsing or only the plain text part? Using a data element with value attribute does not seem to work. ref: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Basic_Parsing
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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@johnjohnston
http://tantek.com/presentations/2014/05/indieweb/?full#cover #indieweb stuff thinking about #glowscot #domaineofonesown silos and more
(twitter.com/_/status/462692010697449472)
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KevinMarks
I think the logo is different enough, but draws on some of the same resonances
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KevinMarks
it also reminds me of something else, like spy vs spy
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KevinMarks
maybe the hole in the middle can have james bond shoot out of it
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aaronpk
interesting that google's openid connect implementation actually provides two ways of verifying the id tokens, one by verifying the JWT signature, and they also provide an API so you can verify w/o crypto
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aaronpk
"What does authentication mean? The process of establishing and communicating that the person operating a browser or native app is who they claim to be." http://openid.net/connect/faq/
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Loqi
Now: 2014-05-03 15:20:08 PDT Unixtime: 1399155608 NewCal: 2014-2-2, New Wednesday, the 2nd day of the second bim
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aaronpk
thanks loqi
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Loqi
you're welcome
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kbs
aaronpk: shall I go ahead and excise my notes section from /auth-brainstorming? It was mostly a place to record my notes - doesn't seem very relevant to the current state of your work and the wiki page
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@JessiGage
Wolf-man desperately seeking female of breeding age. #giveaway for ebook & gift card. #mywana #freebooks #indieauth http://jessigage.wordpress.com/2014/05/01/get-your-very-own-bearded-virgin-starting-today/
(twitter.com/_/status/462720495389925376)
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aaronpk
kbs: sure, or feel free to move to another page if you think it may be useful for something in the future
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kbs
aaronpk: okay, sounds good. I have it locally, and if somethnig suitable comes up in future I'll push it out again. Nice going btw - been looking at the logs once in a while :)
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aaronpk
yeah i'm trying to get this sorted out today and tomorrow, and to push an update to the indieauth.com home page accordingly
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kbs
great - I know you're trying to get things in shape for IIW - good luck and hope it catches on!
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aaronpk
still wrestling with openid connect
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aaronpk
there's a lot of good stuff there, and I'd like to use it if possible, but it all seems somewhat overcomplicated and definitely covers way more use cases than we need
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aaronpk
I just know that the first thing people will ask at IIW is "how is this different from OpenID Connect" and "why didn't you just use OpenID Connect?"
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kbs
aah, okay :) I haven't worked with openid unfortunately
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kbs
not much idea about the overlap. (FWIW, best part of your implementation [to me anyway] is the use of JWT - it's a pretty elegant way to think about what it's really doing.) Hope you're able to get a few more converts regardless :)
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kbsriram.com
edited /auth-brainstorming () "(-2549) remove notes, maybe reuse later"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
the crazy thing is openid connect pretty much dropped all past attempts and is built on top of OAuth 2.0 now
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aaronpk
and also makes heavy use of JWT
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kbs
Oh, didn't know that - huh, interesting.
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aaronpk
yeah that's why I feel a little bad about doing something slightly different (although much simpler) than OpenID Connect that is *also* built on top of OAuth 2
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kbs
well - as usual, probably best to let the vox populi have the last word and not worry too much about (potentially competing) ideas :)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /auth-brainstorming (+952) "add info about verifying access tokens"
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@StoryandLogic
RT @JessiGage: Wolf-man desperately seeking female of breeding age. #giveaway for ebook & gift card. #mywana #freebooks #indieauth http:/…
(twitter.com/_/status/462729213590925312)
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aaronpk
oh man how can I block those
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aaronpk
maybe ebook?
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aaronpk
hoping to block more than just that tweet
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KartikPrabhu
oh i think people are using indeauth for independent author
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KartikPrabhu
and that looks like an awful book
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KartikPrabhu
how about blocking #freebooks?
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aaronpk
before I blocked #indieauth… (ellipsis char) we were getting a ton cause RTs would truncate "#indieauthor" to "#indieauth…"
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KevinMarks
That these Auth schemes converge isn't a bad thing
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KevinMarks
Also, you made indieauth compatible with openid 1 & 2, which they didn't
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: agreed, which is why i'm hesitant to do things too different from openid connect, like naming things differently
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aaronpk
for example "me" and "client_id" vs "sub" and "aud" http://indiewebcamp.com/auth-brainstorming#Verifying_access_tokens
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aaronpk
"sub" and "aud" being the OpenID Connect terms
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KartikPrabhu
errgh! why such unreadable names!
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aaronpk
see what i mean!
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aaronpk
is it bad that I want it to be a more understandable term?
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KartikPrabhu
nope. i couldn't even guess what "aud" is short for~
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aaronpk
audience
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aaronpk
"aud: REQUIRED. Audience(s) that this ID Token is intended for. It MUST contain the OAuth 2.0 client_id of the Relying Party as an audience value."
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KartikPrabhu
so many properties/tokens with unreadable acronyms
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aaronparecki.com
created /login-brainstorming (+3287) "add simple login example without authorization"
(view diff)
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aaronpk
this one is simpler and doesn't involve a token or micropub endpoint just to sign someone in to the wiki http://indiewebcamp.com/login-brainstorming
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aaronpk
bret: wanna make a similar diagram? :D
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bret
sure!
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aaronpk
cool! should be much smaller
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aaronpk
k i'm out for a while, ttyl!
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bret
cool!
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