#indiewebcamp 2014-04-30

2014-04-30 UTC
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aaronpk yeah I'm doing a rudimentary check at that point before actually parsing the page.
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aaronpk i should probably change that
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Loqi agreed.
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aaronpk Loqi you don't even have your own website
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Loqi dude
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benwerd do you even webmention, bot?
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snarfed hey benwerd, long time no see
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benwerd waves
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snarfed kylewm and i were talking the other day about how to get bridgy to find your notes feed
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benwerd yeah, he nudged me about that
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benwerd happy to add any markup that'd be helpful
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snarfed ah, cool, nm then
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benwerd I'm not quite sure what the best thing to do is there, tbh
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snarfed maybe if we follow multiple rel-feed links, or whatever they are
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kylewm nor I
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snarfed perfect, then we can all just make something up
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benwerd hmm - but I've got like 8 feeds, so that could get heavy on both of our ends
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benwerd perfect
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benwerd rel-feed-main or something?
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kylewm haha, tantek was surprised that I was using rel=“feed” and not rel=“alternate”
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snarfed benwerd: eh i'm fine with it following multiple, we should be able to optimize on our end so it only does it once per silo post
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aaronpk kbs: awesome, nice touch with the icons
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benwerd ok - so shall I mark up with rel-feed?
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kylewm snarfed: do you mean fanning out to read multiple feeds?
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snarfed kylewm: well, multiple rel-feed links i guess, yes
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aaronpk looks awesome! https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2937/14070367724_d3bb56e9da_b.jpg
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kbs aaronpk: oh, thanks :)
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snarfed i'm happy to let you all drive the design decisions (and review), just wanted to confirm that backfeed on benwerd's notes is within reach :P
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benwerd I'll check in some markup shortly and ping you
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kylewm thanks snarfed & benwerd!
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snarfed np!
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aaronpk huh, I didn't know about the "onerror" attribute of <img> tags
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kbs I pretty much just went down the cheat list from owasp - keep learning some new dark corners each time I poke my nose there
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aaronpk nice
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aaronpk this stuff is so hard to figure out without actually implementing it
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KevinMarks_ hm, the only reason I know facebook's f8 is on is a friend posting photos of a video uplink truck, and a journalist coming into SFO
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aaronpk i think I should go build a token endpoint real quick instead of trying to figure it out on the wiki
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KevinMarks_ are they likely to say anything interesting at f8?
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kylewm snarfed: just realized that I check for rel=feed but don’t check the type is html … that’s not great
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snarfed kylewm: heh
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snarfed KevinMarks: yes they are
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snarfed you in particular will like one announcement
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snarfed kylewm: feel free to use util.follow_redirects, it checks for that and a few more nice things
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aaronpk you already know?!
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snarfed aaronpk: yup. you may bask in my amazing coolness
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KevinMarks_ bear in mind that his CEO was facebook's CTO until recently
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snarfed :P
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kbs heh :)
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KevinMarks_ they're adopting OpenSocial?
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KevinMarks_ ;)
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snarfed we're also featured in their keynote
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snarfed lol
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KevinMarks_ so I should livetweet the stream?
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snarfed s/OpenSocial/ActivityStreams/
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snarfed (also lol)
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KevinMarks_ they did support ActivityStreams for a while
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kbs wouldn't it be neat if they added fragmentions on facebook
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KevinMarks_ and then Monica left
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snarfed KevinMarks: sure! if you want
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snarfed KevinMarks: ah right. a whole year or so
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snarfed sigh
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snarfed looking…yup, captured that: https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial#related-work
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KevinMarks_ hm, I'll be on the train during the keynote
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bear hmm, how do I know if my check webmention result is good or bad?
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kbs bear: unfortunately, have to look back on your page :/
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bear ah
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kbs wasn't clever enough to recheck the page, alas :)
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kylewm snarfed: (re: follow_redirects) phew thanks, had no idea how to do it otherwise… since rel-feed doesn’t have to have a type
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snarfed kylewm: well, it cheats and makes a head request, and then depends on the content-type http header…but good enough
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kylewm is that cheating? it kinda seems like the only way to do it :)
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snarfed got me!
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gRegor` Added an inline form to manually send a webmention: http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/ Woo! h/t KartikPrabhu for the ajax-y idea
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bear kbs - so i'm thinking that since the /xss left a mention that it failed?
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: might also want to add a "required" attribute so the modern browsers can save a request incase there is no source ;)
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kbs bear: so in theory, one of the mentions should succeed, and the other (if not correctly stripped) leaves behind javascript that displays alerts and so forth
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gRegor` Hm?
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bear ah
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bear then i'm "safe" for now because I pull in no text - just hcard items
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kbs bear: yea :) pretty much
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bear but this is a nice tool to have - great job!
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kbs I think there's one more test that I haven't added in (adding js within any hrefs within the hcard itself)
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gRegor` It should give you an error message if you submit the form empty, KartikPrabhu
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kbs bear: oh, thank you kindly :)
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yes it does, but only after a request has been sent to your server. If you set "required" on the input, the browser will do it for you :)
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snarfed kbs: sounds like you could attack bear by putting xss etc inside h-card data?
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snarfed (sorry bear :P)
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aaronpk considers making a test token endpoint on something.oauth.net lol
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bear yea, because I just pull in the data without any checks
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kbs snarfed: right, it's a missing test-case indeed. *goes back to add* :)
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bear @snarfed no worries - this is the kind of thing that should be pointed out - so we can give good examples
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gRegor` Ahh. Nice. Didn't know about that.
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 22 karma
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aaronpk maybe oauth.org to start
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KartikPrabhu :D w00h00!
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aaronpk I don't want to abuse my powers mua ha ha ha
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bear kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 4 karma
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KevinMarks_ tokenendpoint.oauth.net ? or does the official name have underscores in?
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aaronpk token_endpoint.oauth.net
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aaronpk token-endpoint.oauth.net
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KevinMarks_ hahaha
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aaronpk juicy-tokens.oauth.net
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aaronpk i don't know why juicy
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KartikPrabhu gregor`: reference: http://diveintohtml5.info/forms.html#required :D
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gRegor` Google sent me there already. :)
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KartikPrabhu of course
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gRegor` I'm thinking of changing the subheadings. Adding "Respond" before the webmention form and changing "Add Comment" underneath to "Or Add a Comment"
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bret juicy-endpoint++
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Loqi juicy-endpoint has 1 karma
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bret or token.oauth.net++
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aaronpk yeah setting up tokens.oauth.net
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: I recently changed my webmention to read "send me the link to your response"
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gRegor` How did we develop before Firebug and Chrome Web Inspector? Seriously.
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gRegor` I noticed that.
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gRegor` So bossy. "send me the link! do it now!" jk
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KevinMarks_ do you have openID delegated to IndieAuth on oauth.net?
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KevinMarks_ that would make someone grepping logs go "huh?"
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: yeah... bossy is sort of my style ;)
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KartikPrabhu you could write "please kindly send me the link... ummkay?"
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gRegor` Haha
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kbs *waves* thanks for the feedback on checkmentions
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@NTN24 Seguramente usted conoce la música indie. Pero ¿conoce la #IndieWeb? Véalo en #5claves @efectonaim -â–º http://efectonaim.net/el-movimiento-indie-web-ya-esta-en-marcha/ (twitter.com/_/status/461309125205319681)
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@infotuitVZ RT @NTN24: Seguramente usted conoce la música indie. Pero ¿conoce la #IndieWeb? Véalo en #5claves @efectonaim -â–º http://efectonaim.net/el-movimiento-indie-web-ya-esta-en-marcha/ (twitter.com/_/status/461309129454518272)
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benwerd kylewm: are the header links I just added to my site any good to you?
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benwerd (in the html header I mean)
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@luiseolartes RT @NTN24: Seguramente usted conoce la música indie. Pero ¿conoce la #IndieWeb? Véalo en #5claves @efectonaim -â–º http://efectonaim.net/el-movimiento-indie-web-ya-esta-en-marcha/ (twitter.com/_/status/461309542102753280)
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@hoyeducacion "@NTN24: Seguramente usted conoce la música indie. Pero ¿conoce la #IndieWeb? Véalo en #5claves @efectonaim -â–º http://t.co/sxeSU4phaw" (twitter.com/_/status/461309651662172160)
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kylewm benwerd: that’s perfect, except your twitter profile links to benwerd.com instead of werd.io
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kylewm (the bridgy thing uses your user profile url to find the h-feed)
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benwerd kylem: boom
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benwerd kylewm: boom
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benwerd also, typo.
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kylewm hehe
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kylewm oooooh, this just might work
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gRegor` Loqi should have "annnnd boom goes the dynamite" in its vocabulary
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Loqi yeah!
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kylewm benwerd: oh darn, it will only work for new posts
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benwerd kylewm: what kind of post would you like? ;)
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kylewm something feisty and political!
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benwerd ha
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kylewm oh… this is bad, bridgy still thinks your domain is benwerd.com
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benwerd could it be getting it from somewhere else?
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benwerd Facebook? something else?
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kylewm i suspect it’s cached from when you signed up
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benwerd just re-signed in. any better?
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kylewm oh nice that works
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kylewm maybe a good feature request for me would be a way to reset your cached syndicated post relationships
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benwerd new post incoming
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kylewm also trying to reply to an old post that didn’t have any previous responses
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kylewm sorry kind of spamming your twitter right now
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@nobantu Nice Post - Thank You! - RT @benwerd Looking forward to #IIW http://werd.io/2014/looking-forward-to-iiw … #indieweb #IIW18 (twitter.com/_/status/461317687876939776)
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kylewm benwerd: posse-post-discovery didn’t find it :( I think there is only one piece missing (famous last words)… it looks for the permalink to a post with h-entry -> u-url, and it doesn’t look like yours have u-url
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benwerd would you agree that it should go on the anchor tag here?
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benwerd <h2 class="p-name"><a href="http://werd.io/2014/looking-forward-to-iiw">Looking forward to #IIW</a></h2>
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kylewm I would probably put it on the link at the bottom of the post (the one with the time)
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kylewm just bc not all of your posts have titles
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benwerd oh, oops - that was already committed, but I hadn't updated the template on my site
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benwerd it's there now
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kylewm nice, so I suspect that will work on future posts
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kylewm thanks for experimenting with me :)
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benwerd always! :)
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@sbenthall @ashedryden @karlnp that's interesting. Network lock in? Have you checked out #indieweb ? (twitter.com/_/status/461326004045111296)
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bret what is this https://checkmention.appspot.com/ thing!?
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@jmsmcfrlnd #indiewebcamp recommended email hosting stack? (twitter.com/_/status/461348813329158145)
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GWG Evening
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KartikPrabhu ok I wrote a response to Joschi Khupal's article. It is online and accepting webmentions but will be public on 2014-05-02. Feel free to openly add any sort of responses through webmentions to it. Link: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation Also try, using fragmentions to reply to specific phrases, I'll play around with implementing that correctly too.
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KartikPrabhu FYI: it is a bit incomplete but I'll fix that soon
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aaronpk KevinMarks: should I set up a copy of indieauth.com at indie.oauth.net? lol
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aaronpk or my.oauth.net
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aaronpk and then use that as the address I delegate my OpenID to?
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bret i bet the association would bring a lot more attention to it
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bret most people I meet know oauth, most dont know much about indieauth
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aaronpk makes sense
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bret aaronpk maybe the github pages thing should be fixed first?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/johnjohnston/461042694954180609/313781964 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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@jmsmcfrlnd might be #indieweb compatible: is anyone already doing docker containers for email stack? #hyoe http://www.jamesmcfarland.com/2014/04/29/hyoe-host-your-own-email/ (twitter.com/_/status/461357392312406018)
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bret KartikPrabhu nice response
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KartikPrabhu thanks! I think it is more aggressive than what others here responded with. Feel free to add disagreements with it using webmention :)
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bret aaronpk I liked yours as well
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aaronpk I like the idea of "my.oauth.net"
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: I'm not sure I understand the different levels of indentation
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bret aaronpk rings kind of close to myopenid
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bret is that a good thing?
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: eh! it is mostly for some layout funkiness, no specific meaning. :P
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aaronpk bret: heh I don't know, the whole openid / oauth thing is kind of a disaster anyway
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bret aaronpk imagine there are 3 energy levels...
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bret ;)
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aaronpk KartikPrabhu: for example the difference in indentation here http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation##voices+are+heard+If+you
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aaronpk wait http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation##voices+are+heard.If+you
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aaronpk http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation##voices+are+heard.+If+you
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aaronpk fragmention fail
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KartikPrabhu I just added the script to my site :P
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: I usually pull out the introduction/conclusion of a section if it has some sort of standout point I'd like to make
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bret Personally i think the wake up call to people talking about how we need open versions of silos or federated this or thats on a silio is worth while. What is the simplest thing you can do that others have already shown possible!?
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bret just a bummer when people confuse that for something else
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@jmsmcfrlnd @bretolius @MailpileTeam yes I've been watching them. If ready they would be my #indieweb client. They are not server side tho. Thus docker (twitter.com/_/status/461363403618267136)
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@jmsmcfrlnd Can any #indiewebcamp #nyc #2014 attendees point me to a recap? #whatdimiss (twitter.com/_/status/461366227584417792)
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Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://dougmckown.com/2014/04/16/why-im-quitting-facebook/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/why (webmention)
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@wraithgar This is the most meta git commit I've ever made #indieweb http://code.danger.computer/the-danger-computer/danger-computer/commit/b4565f8d369cfaa3754b494e1ec71b28cc915c81 (twitter.com/_/status/461375728198492160)
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@patcable @wraithgar i dig yo' #indieweb kick. you gonna run your own email, too? (twitter.com/_/status/461376645249900544)
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aaronpk i'm second guessing this whole JWT thing
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aaronpk now that I'm actually trying to implement a token endpoint
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aaronpk the main problem is the token endpoint gets a request with arbitrary "me" values, so has to first go find the authorization endpoint for the person
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aaronpk so there's 1 GET request
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aaronpk then, for the JWT case, it has to go fetch the public key from the authorization endpoint. or for non-crypto version, makes a POST request to the auth endpoint to verify the code
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aaronpk either way there's an HTTPS request involved
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aaronpk so I don't really see the benefit of the crypto version
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@dotpeople RT @t: Writing & *doing*: @dangillmor post on his own site about #indieweb: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ and syndicates to Slate. (ttk.me t4Vk2) (twitter.com/_/status/461381322632867840)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/459478355080146944/235193328 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/generations (webmention)
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@djp1974 RT @t: Writing & *doing*: @dangillmor post on his own site about #indieweb: http://dangillmor.com/2014/04/25/indie-web-important/ and syndicates to Slate. (ttk.me t4Vk2) (twitter.com/_/status/461430785174552576)
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@brennannovak @jmsmcfrlnd @bretolius if you are waiting for @MailpileTeam to be a fully fledged #IndieWeb client, that... http://bnvk.me/8bu (twitter.com/_/status/461464785754656769)
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ben_thatmust hello all
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GWG Hello, ben_thatmust
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barnabywalters ben_thatmust: your nick got eroded
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GWG Hello, barnabywalters
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barnabywalters in a few years, there’ll just be a “b” left
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barnabywalters morning GWG!
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barnabywalters nice post about some of the design reasoning behind your site
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ben_thatmust yeah i'm still logged in on my work machine
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ben_thatmust i'm working from home today
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GWG barnabywalters: Did you see what I did last night to try and fix it?
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GWG If you pull it up now...
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barnabywalters ah yeah I like that bio better — having the elsewhere icons under your name associates them more clearly
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GWG Yes, but if you view the page on a smaller screen, they pop back into the old position
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barnabywalters it might balance things a little better if there was some whitespace between the header and the body/bio
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ben_thatmust i need to completely redo the front end of my site. I have a lot of stuff to do
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GWG barnabywalters: That side bio is hard coded, which is why it is temporary.
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barnabywalters e.g. maybe the same amount of whitespace between the posts and your bio
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GWG barnabywalters: Not sure what you mean.
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GWG I'm confused about where on the page we are talking about
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barnabywalters GWG: http://waterpigs.co.uk/img/gwg-padding-differences.png
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GWG Is the top one what you are seeing?
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GWG Because my version looks more like the bottom one?
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barnabywalters GWG: yep, I’m seeing the top one
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GWG Odd
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GWG Safari?
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barnabywalters on Firefox Nightly, version 29
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barnabywalters oops, no, version 32
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GWG Okay
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GWG I have Firefox and Chrome installed. And both show a space between the header and the top of the content boxes
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GWG ben_thatmust, can you have a look?
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GWG Since you are here? Do you see a space?
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barnabywalters GWG: ah, my bad, it was a caching issue
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barnabywalters I did a hard refresh and there is now space
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barnabywalters looking good!
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GWG barnabywalters: Good. I was worried there for a moment.
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barnabywalters cache--
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Loqi cache has -1 karma
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GWG I spent a lot of time looking at people's bio bars
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GWG For example yours and aaronpk's have commonalities in content
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GWG Although you align left, he aligns right
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GWG A lot of people put the same info as a content area on top
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GWG A lot of design for me is looking at other people's sites and saying... "I like this...don't like that."
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GWG So, I like having the location. So I'll likely be adding that. But I don't like the idea of being too precise about it.
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GWG I also may add an optional location parameter to the posts, which I don't have now. But it is only useful when I'm somewhere worth mentioning.
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ben_thatmust GWG sure, its at ben.thatmustbe.me ... definitely needs work
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ben_thatmust space where?
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GWG ben_thatmust: Never mind, it was barnabywalters caching, not the site.
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cweiske ben_thatmustbeme, s/decent/descent/
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cweiske s/developement/development/
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ben_thatmust its okay for now only because its still basically SemPress
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ben_thatmust but I don't really like it
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GWG barnabywalters: indiewebify.me is reading the markup for one of the articles instead of the one in the sidebar. Will have to work on that somehow.
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GWG Wordpress assumes multiple authors, and I coded for it as an optional feature, but hid the display. May have to rethink that
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GWG barnabywalters: When there are multiple h-entrys on a page, such as a home page or h-feed, should each have an embedded h-card?
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barnabywalters GWG: up to you. provided the /authorship algorithm can be used to find an h-card — that’s the important thing
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barnabywalters but in practise it’s often easier to include an author h-card per h-entry
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barnabywalters or, as a I do on my homepage, enclose authorless h-entries in an h-feed with an author h-card
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barnabywalters more on http://indiewebcamp.com/feed
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GWG barnabywalters: There are 3 options I see. Strip the h-card on the home page only, and keep it on the single page
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GWG Strip the h-card entirely as there is a big one in the sidebar
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GWG keep the multiple h-cards but mark it up differently
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barnabywalters GWG: you should always have an h-card on the homepage
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barnabywalters the way I would do it on your site would either to mimic what I do (h-feed with author h-card and child h-entries) or what aaronpk does (flat page with h-entries and h-card on)
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GWG Well, that will be something I fiddle with tonight.
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/User:WaterPigs.co.uk (webmention)
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kbs aaronpk: a thought re yesterday's conversation on bearer tokens. I wonder if OTPs can be (ab)used to simplify the authorization endpoint
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kbs and used to obtain a new bearer token.
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kbs flow being something like this.
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barnabywalters kbs: awesome work on checkmention!
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kbs barnabywalters: oh, thank you :)
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barnabywalters mind if I link to it from indiewebify.me?
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kbs love to add any testcases you might have used/run-into as well
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kbs sure, by all means
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kbs aaronpk: user (say) signs into indieauth.com, which then provides a TOTP key for each scope of interest. (eg:) totp-key1-write, ... user installs these keys on their mobile device
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kbs now, a third-party app/website comes along and wants to publish a comment on behalf of user
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kbs now the mobile-app requests the code for a totp-key1-write from the user, submits it to indieauth.com, and gets back a signed token confirming it has the ability to write to the user's site
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kbs signed token == bearer token, used/verified with each call to the user-site as usual
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snarfed btw kbs, i'm going to (periodically) clean up the test mentions on the polytics post. holler if you need any, i can always restore them
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kbs snarfed: :) thanks much - appreciate that you let me test with your page, but don't need them permanently. I'll also give you a heads up before testing again -- should be done for the moment.
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kylewm kbs++
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Loqi kbs has 5 karma
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kylewm I just tried checkmention ... had a false sense of security cause I thought I was using python bleach everywhere
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kylewm but apparently I was not using it in the most important place!
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kbs oh, cool - glad it's helping! I don't use python, so not familiar with the quirks of commonly used libraries. If you notice corners where things could be tested more, please do let me know
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kbs I need to add a rel=me test link, somehow forgot to add that in the last change. (snarfed also uses nofollow everywhere when embedding links, which also seems like a good idea...)
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cweiske you're breaking the internet with nofollow
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kbs :-)
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kbs I blame google and pagerank
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kylewm cweiske: even for links in comments on your site?
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cweiske are they less worth than your own links?
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kylewm I'm not sure, in the indieweb, it makes sense to me that they would get a small bump from being on my low-traffic site, but should not get a big bump for me commenting on a higher traffic blog
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kylewm also while you're here, how do you get pretty urls on http://git.cweiske.de ? :)
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kylewm mine all have all sorts of query parameters on http://git.kylewm.com/
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cweiske kylewm, http://p.cweiske.de/94
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cweiske last line
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kylewm huzzah, thanks!
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kbs oh, neat - didn't realize both of you were self-hosting your git repositories too
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cweiske self-hosting your blog isn't as important as self-hosting your code
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cweiske I also POSSE to github
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kbs ha - that's pretty neat :) I like it
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kbs and a pastebin too, nice
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cweiske federated pastebin actually
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cweiske http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/phorkie-0.3.1.htm
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cweiske version 0.4 even sends webmentions/pingbacks if it forked a remote site
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kbs no kidding - very cool
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cweiske which means it displays forks on other servers
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cweiske and also links to the original server
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cweiske (under development)
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kbs this is way more advanced than I realized :) neat
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cweiske I really need to get the .phar version going, so that people can try it out easily
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GWG Back for lunch
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GWG kylewm, you there?
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kylewm what's up GWG?
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GWG I ripped out the part of my page you commented on.
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kylewm oh, that looks really good!
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kylewm do you like it?
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GWG I need to write a bio now
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GWG On mobile, the top social bar reappears
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GWG Needs more work though. I have a lot of unused space right now
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kylewm whitespace is ok
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GWG Yes, but I think I could add more in the sidebar.
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GWG I may not like it and take it out
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GWG I may try a local time display like some sites
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GWG or a location box
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KevinMarks morning
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kevinmarks.com edited /fragmention (+208) "/* Related work */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks JonathanNeal: have you seen the hypothes.is stuff?
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bnvk yay, a .is domain name :)
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Loqi giggles
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bnvk KevinMarks: that sounds awesome
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kbsriram.com edited /auth-brainstorming (+2550) "additional notes" (view diff)
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bnvk KevinMarks: do you know if the Hypothes.is people plan to allow sites to host their own copy of data?
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KevinMarks not sure - they are keen on the standardisation process, and seem to be open sourcing bits
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KevinMarks time fro #f8 keynote, possibly featuring snarfed
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snarfed does anyone here posse to stack overflow?
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snarfed just curious. didn't find anything on the wiki
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aaronpk following the live blog here http://mashable.com/2014/04/29/facebook-f8-live-blog/
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aaronpk is that a good one or is there a better way?
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KevinMarks live stream?
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KevinMarks https://f8.facebooklive.com/
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aaronpk i don't really want to pay that much attention
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aaronpk would rather switch to the tab and scan some text periodically
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KartikPrabhu updated response to Joschi Khupal: http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation feedback/critique/webmentions welcome before it goes public in 2 days
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@kevinmarks #f8 @finkd: The mobile ecosystem is so siloed - the mobile platformsa are all competing #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461552198330351616)
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KevinMarks Zuck complains about silos!
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kbs KartikPrabhu: dunno, do you think it might restart another round of arguments? :)
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KartikPrabhu kbs: yes. I might :P
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KartikPrabhu it definitely is more aggressive than how others here have responded.
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kbs KartikPrabhu: okay :) the 0.02 that struck me, is that Joschi seemed (to me) to be saying that his notion of indieweb includes people who don't actually build things
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kbs so there's a chance that both of you might be right in different ways.
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@kevinmarks #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461553530910695426)
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@dalmaer RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461553693418991616)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461554094340325376)
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kbs "move fast with stability"? :)
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snarfed hmm. now users have to opt into giving an app access to a post, etc, *per post*?
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snarfed i wonder if that will break bridgy
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KevinMarks per post?
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snarfed i'm inferring from what he just said. very unclear so far. we'll see
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aaronpk anonymous login?
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snarfed kbs: yup. entertaining. i need to go update http://snarfed.org/2013-08-18_im-slow
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aaronpk http://www.scribblelive.com/Event/F8_Keynote/114635161
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aaronpk kbs: I prefer "Move fast and fix things"
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kbs haha :)
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KevinMarks hm, am I lagged
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snarfed eh, i actually like stability better. fixing is ok but better to try to prevent the problems in the first place
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benwerd curious about what the line about not giving access to stuff your friends share with you means
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benwerd could it break, eg bridgy?
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benwerd snarfed++
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Loqi snarfed has 14 karma
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aaronpk "The Anonymous Login feature allows users to try apps without sharing their identity right away."
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snarfed fb's early culture very much glamorized firefighting, which is a very specific culture. (imho not great for eng)
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snarfed aha, ok. if he was talking about anonymous login, then no, bridgy should be fine
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snarfed lots of goog engineers i know who went to fb hated it and left fast
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snarfed since google was much more engineering, less hacking
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snarfed anyway.
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kbs snarfed: great post, nodding my head a lot while reading it :)
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snarfed kbs: thanks!
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KevinMarks but facebook really needed SREs
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aaronpk lol http://www.scribblelive.com/Event/F8_Keynote/114635374 "If you're just joining us, Facebook is unveiling its plan for conquering the entire Internet -- by being the cross-platform infrastructure underlying the whole thing."
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benwerd raises an eyebrow as high as it can go
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KartikPrabhu eyebrows just flew off
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snarfed heh. people said the same thing about open graph a few yrs ago
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j12t Did you guys have any doubts about that?
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benwerd and wasn't that kind of the implication with Google+ too?
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KevinMarks I'm reminded of the "decentralised" slide at F8 that had FB in the centre
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snarfed benward: g+ was maybe more about data/interop standards
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snarfed er benwerd
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snarfed turned out to be more talk than walk, but meh
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benwerd usual apology to mr ward
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benwerd I always assumed they'd attempt to extend the reach of circles to content on the web
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KevinMarks I'm sure they wanted to be cross silo, but the other silos said nope
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KevinMarks bah, stream died
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benwerd oh! just realized that j12t will be at IIW as well
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benwerd They've made space for an Idno demo - snarfed, cool to show them Bridgy while I'm at it?
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snarfed benwerd: of course!
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benwerd groovy
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j12t Duh!
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KevinMarks are they doing speed dating demos again?
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benwerd yes
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snarfed wish i could be there. congrats on getting backfeed working w/o links btw. kylewm did great work there
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KevinMarks or is this a plenary demo?
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benwerd I think 10 minutes long
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benwerd repeated 6 times
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j12t More likely 5 minutes
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benwerd 5 minutes long
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KevinMarks j12t has been at every iiw I think
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benwerd ;)
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KevinMarks cool
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j12t No. But I don’t think I missed more than 2.
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@gcarothers RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461557811160154112)
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KevinMarks speed dating demos is 5 minutes x12 times
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j12t Will do some IndieBox demos
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benwerd awesome
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gRegor` KartikPrabhu: The paragraphs seem oddly aligned in that post
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@_subnet RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461557871332052992)
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benwerd j12t, it'll be good to finally catch up
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j12t yep!
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gRegor` I think it's a good post, though.
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: hmmm... that is me playing with layout. thanks
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gRegor` Footnote 2 has a run-on sentence, if you wanted grammatical feedback. :)
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KartikPrabhu aah! thanks :)
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gRegor` I like the use of "learnt" :)
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snarfed aha, KevinMarks et al, here's the f8 part you all will be interested in
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snarfed tune in
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KartikPrabhu gRegor`: that seems to be a UK English usage a compared to "learned"
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KevinMarks this is a bit where HTML5 has failed to be coherent
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aaronpk AppLinks?
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snarfed well, let him finish
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snarfed but yes
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aaronpk quip! nice
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snarfed this kind of thing will help tantek's personal comms thing a lot
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@kevinmarks #f8 @ilyasu: I've been working with the URL for as long as I can remember. It's the fundamental unit of sharing #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461559116201476096)
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snarfed and other use cases KevinMarks et al have wanted
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KevinMarks and I'm in the tunnel. no video :(
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aaronpk "touch to return to Quip" <- is that part of the applinks sdk?
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snarfed aaronpk: not sure. i haven't seen this presentation, just got to use the api a bit
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snarfed they have a service where you search for an app and it returns the ios url to use, the android intent to use, etc
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: Could you take a look at this:http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation and let me know if it might cause more trouble than is necessary?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronpk oh crazy, huh
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snarfed very very useful
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snarfed we may not love the provenance, but still
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aaronpk wait so what is the new thing? the "return to" link at the top?
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KevinMarks going to an app, not a browser?
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snarfed no, forget about the return part, the interesting part is finding the app link/intent in the first place
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snarfed KevinMarks: right
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KevinMarks so they added a back button to iOS?
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kbs how are applinks different from intents (functionally?)
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aaronpk http://applinks.org/
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kbs aaronpk: thanks
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snarfed the key part is the db that's queryable and kept up to date
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KevinMarks hm, this actually seems evil
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snarfed we can do this now manually, but that's way brittle. this helps
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gRegor` snarfed: bridgy doesn't have a published time on favorites, presumably because Twitter doesn't supply one, right?
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KevinMarks "get stuck in browsers" = use the web
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snarfed sure, i'm ignoring ideology. the *functionality* is useful. if we like it we can go build our own clone that supports the same api, etc
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snarfed gRegor`: right :/
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gRegor` I got my first brid.gy backfeed. On a post from 2006. :) Only because I linked it in a tweet to someone, heh
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snarfed gRegor`: congrats!
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gRegor` I think I will match up the twitter profile URL between the like and the comment on the same post, so I can use the comment's published time.
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KevinMarks it's not so much getting stuck in a mobile browser as getting stuck in a webview on iOS
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snarfed !tell tantek in case you didn't see, fb announced that thing i mentioned a while back: http://applinks.org/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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gRegor` kbs: Maybe of interest: https://github.com/nyarly/simplekey
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Loqi Welcome, indie-visitor! Set your nickname by typing /nick yourname
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gRegor` Found via http://blog.lrdesign.com/2014/03/thoughts-on-keybase-io/
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kbs gRegor`: aha, nice :) thanks for the pointer
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KevinMarks organic tools?
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@kevinmarks #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461561543839084546)
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@samharrelson RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461561670855569410)
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aaronpk lol!
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gRegor` Haha
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@AlexSchleber RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461561736537989120)
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@pauljacobson RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461562882329968640)
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@gno2006 RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461563663410020353)
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@rknLA RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461563757668233216)
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Jeena I am thinking of adding pictures or images or something like that to my blog/ and notes/
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Jeena but I can't quite decide on how to call it, pics/ images/ imgs/ pictures/ pix/ look all funky
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aaronpk Jeena: I also couldn't decide on any of that, or how I even want to host my photos, so I punted for now in favor of an instagram-like stream of photos in my notes
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Jeena hm yeah, I'm more in favour of a flickr photostream with only pictures
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Jeena Perhaps I just should call it pictures/ and just change it if I really feel that it was the wrong name
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kbs doesn't flickr call it /photos ? [muddying the waters as usual :)]
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Jeena hm photos sounds better actually
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Jeena ok photos it is ^^
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aaronpk yeah was thinking "photos" too
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@asunews .@Cronkite_ASU professor @dangillmor talks about the #indieweb movement in a @FutureTenseNow article: https://asunews.asu.edu/20140428-indie-web-movement (twitter.com/_/status/461568337219031043)
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@JoeyEsch RT @asunews: .@Cronkite_ASU professor @dangillmor talks about the #indieweb movement in a @FutureTenseNow article: https://asunews.asu.edu/20140428-indie-web-movement (twitter.com/_/status/461569568742178816)
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bret anyone mind if I remove the link to http://www.cybe.com/start/ from http://indiewebcamp.com/silo ?
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bret i mean.... its so far out there
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aaronpk yeah I was thinking about that today too...
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aaronpk do we have a wiki page for it?
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aaronpk meh
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bret cybe? I mean i cant even think why we would
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bret i can only see this used as an example of how NOT to build projects
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bret step 1) only talk about goals completely out of reach
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/459796428462620672/235193328 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-05-07-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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bret solve all the problems!
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kylewm +1 for removing it
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bret maybe a page of examples of....
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bret not sure how to put it
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bret personal projects where the goals are clearly to lofty?
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kylewm /antipatterns?
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bret its def an antipattern
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bret its somewhere between people who just talk/make materials to help them talk more
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aaronparecki.com edited /database-antipattern (+21) (view diff)
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bret and projects that have such lofty goals that they are kind of insane
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kylewm the “Step 2. ????” pattern :)
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bret haha
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bret love it
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bret feel free to add that to the wiki if you dont see anything else too similar
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bret otherwise I will later
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bret brb
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KartikPrabhu just checked out cybe's manifesto! So many words!!!
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aaronpk yeah just go ahead and remove it ... not worth people spending time reading it, heh
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KartikPrabhu actually i think it is a good example of "more talk, less do"
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@kevinmarks "@whitneyhess: @kevinmarks Facebook is one giant silo!!!" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461586285556023296)
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@joshuajuran RT @kevinmarks: "@whitneyhess: @kevinmarks Facebook is one giant silo!!!" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461586518344495104)
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@HealthSTEM RT @asunews: .@Cronkite_ASU professor @dangillmor talks about the #indieweb movement in a @FutureTenseNow article: https://asunews.asu.edu/20140428-indie-web-movement (twitter.com/_/status/461587473517121536)
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snarfed kylewm: looking at your PR now. re the test failure, if you run alltests.py with —debug, it should show you more details, including a real stack trace
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Jeena is there a h-as-photo?
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tantek If you want to remove Cybe from that page, then please move it to its own /Cybe page and add that to anti-patterns
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 2 hours, 12 minutes ago: Could you take a look at this:http://kartikprabhu.com/article/concurrence-cooperation and let me know if it might cause more trouble than is necessary?
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Loqi tantek: snarfed left you a message 2 hours, 7 minutes ago: in case you didn't see, fb announced that thing i mentioned a while back: http://applinks.org/
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: it seems that the h-as-* is not a microformats pattern
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tantek KartikPrabhu: your post looks great. honest, from the heart, and positively encouraging.
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tantek well, h-as-* does create a microformat object (since it is an h-* classname), it's just not part of any proposed format for doing anything. more of an experiment.
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tantek pretty sure I documented that on the /ActivityStreams page
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Jeena ah, so I do at least no harm in adding h-as-photo in addition to h-entry
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KartikPrabhu Jeena: yeah I don't think there is any harm done.
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tantek snarfed, coincidentally, next post in my series is finally up: http://tantek.com/2014/120/b1/markup-people-focused-mobile-communication
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KartikPrabhu is reading that right now!
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tantek Jeena - correct, though you may want to also add a comment next to what I wrote in /ActivityStreams saying you're doing that
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Jeena ok
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snarfed tantek: definitely! nice work. saw and replied
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jeena.net edited /ActivityStreams (+90) "/* Use with microformats2 */ added h-as-photo comment" (view diff)
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tantek Thanks Jeena!
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tantek snarfed, quickly skimming applinks.org, looks like some interesting design/engineering behind it. Still a bit confused about the "app to app linking" use case. When would I want that? (as a user)
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tantek Actually I should get to bed - don't answer that. :) We can chat more tomorrow. Er, your tomorrow. It's already 2014-05-01 here.
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tantek Happy May Day. Viva la IndieWeb!
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aaronpk is the video going to be posted? the video showed a bunch of good use cases for that
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tantek (as Web Workers, let's make sure our own web sites work)
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tantek aaronpk - I like your design/methodology better. native app -> micropub -> web and then all web<->web
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tantek with the exception of things like http://tantek.com/2014/120/b1/markup-people-focused-mobile-communication of course :)
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tantek for web -> native app
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aaronpk oh this is just so that you can be in the spotify app, click a link, and it launches the songkick app to buy tickets. not really about creating posts or anbything.
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tantek so, it's for app to app bizdev?
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aaronpk more like bringing the web's hyperlink experience to native apps
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aaronpk the idae being if you publish these applinks tags, you don't need bizdev relationships to be able to link to each others' apps
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tantek aaronpk ok that makes more sense
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tantek hopefully it will make native app devs think more "web-like" if they end up creating links to various app states/pages
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tantek then as we close the gap with webapis perhaps they'll create more web apps
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snarfed aaronpk: https://f8.facebooklive.com/videos/418/keynote
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benwerd !tell barnabywalters Any thoughts about what happened here? http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek benwerd - why not link people to a silo to create comments, e.g. Twitter, and just let Bridgy copy them back in?
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tantek should really go to sleep.
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benwerd tantek - because I don't want to encourage that use if I don't have to. If someone's going to comment in a silo, it might as well be mine ;)
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benwerd this way nobody _has_ to create an account on a 3rd party service
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@AAinslie RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461599755555323904)
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@LongHandPixels RT @kevinmarks: #f8 FB is trying to shut down the web and replace it with mobile apps that route through it's datacenters #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461600549641945088)
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@LongHandPixels When is the web going to recognize facebook as damage and route around it? Is that still a thing the web is capable of? #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/461600787584794624)
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KevinMarks I see applinks as a way to further marginalise the browser
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KevinMarks And to make sure that sites decide which apps are approved by them
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KevinMarks Can I make applinks that say to use Firefox mobile for my site? Not an embedded web view?
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aaronpk i still don't quite understand applinks, I'm going to need to try this out with something real before I get it
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KevinMarks So, I'm in sf and have a free afternoon. Where should I tempt east coast journalists here to cover f8 to come and sit in the sun with drinks and talk indie web? Near townsend and 7th helps, but lush is key
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KevinMarks If twitter were smart they'd be ferrying them to their roof garden from the conf
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KevinMarks Applinks are the twitter card for apps, generalised so other apps can do it
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aaronpk so I guess app links are a way to say "this web page is also available at this native app URL"
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aaronpk and facebook provides an API to answer that question, but you can also just read the applinks tags yourself too
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brainTrain I've always been a zeitgeist fan, but that's probably a bit out of the way if you're in SOMA
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kbs benwerd: out of curiosity - has anyone [but me now I guess :)] ever expressed a desire to post 'transient' comments? Ie, things that stick around for a few days but bar anyone archiving them, just disappears
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aaronpk what is this Prefer-Html-Meta-Tags header that applinks references? the only result for it on google is the applinks docs
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KevinMarks Aaronpk more a way to say "don't let anyone else show this url, only these apps" think what http://idontwantyourfuckingapp.tumblr.com sites will do with it
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KartikPrabhu kbs: snap-comment?
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gRegor` Whoa, what's with all of barnaby's comments on http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb that seem unrelated?
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kbs KartikPrabhu: haha - yea, guess that's what it could be called :)
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KartikPrabhu or moment-comment :P
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aaronpk KevinMarks: really? that wasn't my impression at all... also how would that ever be enforced?
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KevinMarks By it happening when you click a link in Facebook, or any app that calls their library
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kbs KartikPrabhu: even better :)
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kylewm benwerd: it looks like you got a webmention from barnaby’s notes stream? that’s … odd
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gRegor` !tell benwerd I'm a fan of flat comments and having a "local" comments option since the majority of people are not webmention capable yet. I actually just implemented interleaving of comments and webmentions: http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm now I want to send a webmention from my h-feed to ben and see what happens… O:)
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gRegor` !tell benwerd It also looks like barnaby's note stream got sent as a webmention? http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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gRegor` Haha
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kylewm argh gRegor` I want to delete that “Nerd” comment from your blog post, it bums me out every time!
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gRegor` Haha. If it helps, it's from a nerd.
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kylewm that DOES help
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bret lol
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gRegor` So not derogatory.
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gRegor` My friend Jon just likes to be a punk
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bret i read it that way^
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kylewm I am overly sensitive to the “don’t you have anything better to do with your time?” people
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gRegor` Ah, gotcha
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bret kylewm: you run into that much?
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kylewm no, not much anymore … it’s cool to be nerdy and obsessive now
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gRegor` Related: I showed off my new manual webmention form to a friend last night. He said "Look. Quit doing things and making me feel bad for just sitting here playing Minecraft."
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gRegor` So I told him I would probably play after I grabbed some food followed by " . . . and BUILD WEBMENTIONS IN MINECRAFT! jk"
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aaronpk that is awesome
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bret i used to play a lot of games, now I feel like i had better things to do with my time
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gRegor` I should build an IWC logo, though
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kylewm that’s great
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Loqi it is probable
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gRegor` Curious, Loqi
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kylewm spend your cognitive surplus how you please!
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bret i didnt used to like the iwc logo that much, but the stickers are really rad i have to say
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bret they look super good
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kbs something I don't yet grasp [on android specifically] is what applinks adds, that isn't already being done by the apps?
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kbs it works the other way admittedly - the apps register for urls, and the caller simply asks the system to resolve any given url
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kbs now it seems that applinks wants to move that [relatively nice] system-provided-user-mediated resolution mechanism into the calling app, which doesn't immediately seem like a better approach
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aaronpk but now it's cross platform!
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aaronpk </troll>
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kbs :-)
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bret the question is pushup counter going to get applinks?
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gRegor` Haha
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kbs is bugged by apps on android that pre-decide how I want them to handle a shared intent
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bret I'm finding the OS X text edit app more and more appealing for writing articles/papers
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bret in plaintext mdoe
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kbs pretty soon you'll be joining kylewm and me in the church of emacs
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kylewm oops, http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb
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kbs oh, you did test it :)
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aaronpk shouldn't that be checking to see if each h-entry is actually in-reply-to the url?
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bret lolwhut
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aaronpk sidenote: i'm about to test my note posting interface with emoji, and syndicating the emoji to twitter
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: it think it is the first h-entry : http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation##only+use+the+first+h-entry+if+there%27s+more+than+one
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aaronpk holy crap it worked
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aaronpk except the twitter card is confuzzled
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aaronpk http://aaron.pk/r4Vq1
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KartikPrabhu i only see Unicode-type anonymous boxes
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aaronpk try safari
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aaronpk https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/13889803488_2bdb022cda_b.jpg
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KartikPrabhu hmm no safari on my computer... but looks cool
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KartikPrabhu seems only safari is supported. Does not work on FF, Chrome or Opera
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bret kbs: i get distracted easily, by plugins and colors... text edit has none of this
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aaronpk there's a chrome plugin for emoji apparently
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kbs bret: :) as a fellow-sufferer of that affliction, I see what you mean
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gRegor` Man, I hate new Twitter profiles.
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KartikPrabhu new-twitter-profile--
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Loqi new-twitter-profile has -1 karma
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kbs I can't read the time well in those glyphs - so he's invited you at 6pm, and you're going to show up at 6.30 - is that how to read them?
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aaronpk kbs: she, yes
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gRegor` "Show me this twitter profile." "Ok, here's some of their tweets." *click link to see all tweets* "Oh, here's all their tweets."
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kbs demonstrates the easily distracted symptom :)
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aaronpk 3-character rsvp, not bad
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kbs aaronpk: (oh, woops.) neat.
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aaronpk (the place is called teardrop)
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kbs oh :) I thought that meant "the usual watering hole"
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aaronpk hehe
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aaronpk it almost is
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@jameschurchman RT @kevinmarks: #f8 if you're not sure what Zuckerberg means by "silos" read http://indiewebcamp.com/silo and marvel at his chutzpah (twitter.com/_/status/461616073214009344)
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bret omfg its so nice out
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aaronpk srsly
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bret gonna go walk around
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snarfed lols at discussing weather in irc
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kbs snarfed: does applinks (on android specifically) turn the decision on what app to resolve a given URL on its head? Ie, normally the caller registers for URLs, and the user mediates which app is used. With applinks, the caller/library directly decides
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snarfed kbs: i don't actually know it in depth, so i'd have to go read the docs with you for detail q's
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kbs er. "normally, the receiver registers.."
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kbs oh :) okay
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snarfed i agree w/you that the original ideas of both android intents and app-independent url schemes are great, and ideally make applinks unnecessary
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kbs just curious - what do you find the best benefit from using applinks? (I assumed you were working on it to some extent, apologies if that isn't the case!)
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snarfed definitely haven't worked on it. at a high level, it seems useful for 1) translating single-app web links (e.g. a quip doc) to an intent/url that opens it in the native app, for all ios apps and android ones that don't correctly/fully register intent filters
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snarfed 2) reliably generating a specific app's url/intent across breaking changes by the app itself
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snarfed (since the applinks db should be kept up to date)
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snarfed …and maybe others
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kbs would that take into account breaking changes by app-version?
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kbs naively assumes that intent-filters are best kept with the app, rather than in a global version-free db :)
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snarfed re versions, maybe! i don't know
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snarfed in general, i agree with you that it's the ideal solution. the problem is that reality hasn't really followed
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snarfed ios not at all, and android weakly at best
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KevinMarks Snarfed the problem is that you no longer get to choose what app to use
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snarfed KevinMarks: eh, i don't know that this changes that much
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KevinMarks Think twitter clients for an example
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snarfed it seems like applinks is useful for when you already know you want a specific app
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kbs the navigation flow docs for android certainly puts the choice right in the caller, as far as I can tell
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kbs rather than in (the android-centric view) of having the user mediate it.
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snarfed it doesn't disable generic cases. generic android intents are still powerful and useful independent of applinks
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aaronpk but won't applinks stop the android intents from working?
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aaronpk cause applinks will translate the web URL to an app URL, then ask the OS to open the app URL instead of the web URL
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Loqi benwerd: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: I'm a fan of flat comments and having a "local" comments option since the majority of people are not webmention capable yet. I actually just implemented interleaving of comments and webmentions: http://gregorlove.com/2014/02/1180/
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KevinMarks For when the site wants only one app. Yes. It works for quip where your site is a stub. It's anti web
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Loqi benwerd: gRegor` left you a message 1 hour, 9 minutes ago: It also looks like barnaby's note stream got sent as a webmention? http://werd.io/2014/im-thinking-about-adding-comments-what-do-you-like-indieweb
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snarfed right. most web links are already app-specific, web intents notwithstanding
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KevinMarks Yes, though if the app isn't installed it may fall back on the web url
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snarfed …which again is web-site-specific
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KevinMarks Or use a Local web view
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kbs also prefers me (the user) to decide which app -- browser or otherwise -- to handle any given url
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KevinMarks So, can I declare to Facebook to open my site in chrome on iOS with this, instead of a web view?
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aaronpk let's use twitter as an example. you're in the Quip app, and click a link to a tweet. Quip uses the facebook SDK which translates the link to twitter.com/xxx to a twitter app link like twitter://xxx, then hands it off to the OS which launches the twitter app.
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snarfed KevinMarks: i don't know enough about the specifics to answer detailed questions, sadly
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aaronpk so instead of apps providing the OS with web links, they now provide the OS an app link, breaking the ability for other apps to handle the twitter.com/xxx link
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KevinMarks Yes
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snarfed aaronpk: right, i see. for content where you reasonably have multiple clients, this isn't the right thing to use
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snarfed …or maybe it is, if applinks can return multiple apps for a given url. not sure.
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aaronpk but... if twitter one day decides to include the applinks tags, then all apps using the facebook SDK will suddently change
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KevinMarks They do let you express multiple apps. But the website declares them. It gets a veto
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snarfed sure. all true., i definitely grant those poinst. there are tons of things that don't have multiple clients though. this is a huge improvement on the status quo for those cases.
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snarfed if it turns out to tie the multiple-client drawback with the single-client benefit, that's a tradeoff to consider
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snarfed i don't know much about the current state on ios. afaik it doesn't let multiple apps register for the same url schemes, right?
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snarfed ie you can only do generic intents on ios right now if you specifically look for each candidate app separately…?
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aaronpk no, an app can register for a custom URL scheme, but behavior is unspecified if multiple apps register the same
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snarfed right
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kbs is still quite perplexed on the android end :)
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jonnybarnes benwerd: kylewm's posts have also ran amuck in your comment section
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kbs eg: if the quip android app registers for a suitable filter - doesn't it automatically work like all similar apps? What benefit do I get by using the applinks navigation mechanism from (say) my messaging app that gets a link to a quip doc?
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kbs also (to KevinMarks point) it lets the user decide which app to use, which seems nice to me
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@rknLA Hero mode goal: open #indieweb index for AppLinks (twitter.com/_/status/461628281389727744)
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snarfed kbs: yes, it's much more useful on ios than android. again though, as a user, you can't meaningfully choose which app to use in every case
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snarfed quip docs are the example here. it's a document silo
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snarfed you can't (easily yet) open them in another app.
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kbs snarfed: I see, interesting.
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snarfed also, minor android point, correctly registering for http(s) urls to your app is subtle and surprisingly few apps get it entirely right
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kbs snarfed: true - but fixing any of this is an update away, while applinks appear to shift the burden to all the calling apps :)
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snarfed example pain: https://github.com/snarfed/open-in-app/blob/master/AndroidManifest.xml
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snarfed background details: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17706667/workaround-for-chrome-on-android-not-firing-intent-when-links-are-clicked
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snarfed kbs: ture
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snarfed er true
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kbs I see your point about access-protected URLs on the web, with no browser-client UI to open them. [I'm not quite as opposed to non-browser clients as KevinMarks :)] but I do also feel it takes the choice away from the user. Maybe this is fundamentally an ios-vs-android thing as well
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snarfed agreed. it definitely does help interop by hurting user choice a bit, and helps ios more than android
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snarfed it does help user choice in a different way, though
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snarfed a *very* indirect way: most apps don't register to handle their http links at all, on either platform. app links will theoretically let me make "glue" apps like open-in-app handle way more apps
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snarfed which will let users choose to open way more links in native apps, if they want, instead of in their browser
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GWG snarfed: I have a Bridgy question for you
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snarfed GWG: shoot
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GWG Right now, I use Bridgy for backfeed, but not for publishing.
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GWG If I disabled the plugin I use and switched, what are the pros and cons, do you think?
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kbs thanks snarfed! think I'm slightly less perplexed after hearing how quip finds it handy, and possibly other situations. I was initially only able to appreciate what KevinMarks and aaronpk were saying, good to get another perspective on it :)
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snarfed GWG: mostly that you can publish things that aren't just posts
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snarfed e.g. comments/replies, likes/favorites, event rsvps
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snarfed kbs: np! yeah, unlike them, i'm not really a big web advocate per se
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GWG What might I want to do on my side if I did?
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snarfed also re quip, fb mostly found it handy, not us :P
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aaronpk i'm still trying to figure this out too
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aaronpk and understand KevinMarks' concerns
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snarfed GWG: glad you asked! https://www.brid.gy/about#publish
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GWG I saw
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GWG I was more thinking...is it worth adding post meta boxes, etc on the Wordpress side rather than hand coding
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snarfed post meta boxes?
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GWG Basically, metadata in the post editor
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GWG Rather than hand adding the classes to links
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snarfed i see
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snarfed maybe!
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snarfed you're beyond me there
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snarfed you might look at idno, i think it has good uis for specific actions like replying, rsvping, etc
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snarfed maybe p3k too?
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GWG snarfed: Long term vs short term planing
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gRegor` snarfed: Is it by design that bridgy comments shows the author URL as the site linked in the profile, but bridgy favorites shows the twitter profile URL?
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gRegor` See: https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/gRegorLove/461318984592150528/461319357659099138 and https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/gRegorLove/461318984592150528/312425223
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snarfed gRegor`: i think it's a sad implementation detail. i have to get favorites by scraping html, so i get much less info
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gRegor` Ohh
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gRegor` No API for favorites?
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gRegor` Silly twitter
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snarfed was the bane of my existence for a while
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gRegor` So it's scraping the HTML of each of my tweets when it gets a reply? Or periodically?
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GWG snarfed: I'm very cautious on getting into Custom Post Types. But it would take it away from the user
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snarfed gRegor`: twitter returns favorite count, and bridgy remembers it and re-scrapes when it changes
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aaronpk adding this to the reading list... http://roverdotcom.github.io/blog/2014/04/16/how-i-removed-email-from-my-life/
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snarfed GWG: yeah. i don't really use post types at all
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gRegor` Ah, clever
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gRegor` What if the comments included a second u-url, for the twitter profile?
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snarfed we could definitely do that
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gRegor` I guess that could mess up some people's implementations if they're only checking for one u-url in the h-card
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snarfed yeah, u-url tends to be singular
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snarfed even though all mf2 props can technically be multiple
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snarfed in any case, i'd accept a PR to do that if you want
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snarfed it'd all be in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial
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GWG snarfed: I don't either. But would you if there was a plugin for it?
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snarfed GWG: ooh, maybe!
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KevinMarks_ more applink hacking ideas http://applinks.org/documentation/##app+whose+web+content+may+be+found+at+another+URL - use this to point to a version of your page that denounces weblinks
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GWG snarfed: That is what I'm thinking about.
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KevinMarks_ s/weblinks/applinks/
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Loqi KevinMarks_ meant to say: more applink hacking ideas http://applinks.org/documentation/##app+whose+web+content+may+be+found+at+another+URL - use this to point to a version of your page that denounces applinks
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GWG snarfed: It is on my 'roadmap', the list of ideas for the fture.
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snarfed great!
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snarfed KevinMarks: lol
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kbs haha
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kbs do you also predict a day when facebook will charge for the "preferred-launched-app" to handle some particularly desirable endpoint? :)
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KevinMarks_ or sell it to a movie for the ultimate in "takeover marketing"
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gRegor` I'm a python novice, so that probably won't happen, snarfed. :) No biggie, though. the u-uid might help, actually. Is that from the twitter API or something bridgy generates?
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kbs :) it's a clever idea. Be curious how it evolves - clearly there's a huge incentive for everyone to add these tags so they can show up directly from links from the facebook app.
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snarfed gRegor`: bridgy generates it. in retrospect, should be the actual url intsead of a tag uri, but meh
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KevinMarks_ remember when half the web went down because the facebook login iframe redirected the container to an error page?
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kbs surfs with noscript and ghostery, and probably half the web is already invisible!
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snarfed gRegor`: mind filing the multiple u-url thing as an issue in https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy ? it'd be great to capture it
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gRegor` Sure
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gRegor` Can you point me in the repo where the uid is generated?
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gRegor` I see they're both "tag:twitter.com,2013:LucyStag" for the comment and like. Wondering if I can reliably extract the twitter name. wasn't sure about that 2013 in there though
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gRegor` Or I suppose if they always match, I could group them together that way (on a single post)
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snarfed sure. for users, it should always be the twitter name. search for tag_uri in https://github.com/snarfed/activitystreams-unofficial/blob/master/twitter.py
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snarfed the 2013 is a compatibility wart. :/ ignore it
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kylewm gRegor`: what are you trying to do, out of curiosity?
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gRegor` kylewm: https://github.com/snarfed/bridgy/issues/133
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gRegor` I would rather have them combined like "John Doe liked this and said: blah blah blah"
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gRegor` Still separate webmentions. I just want a way to group them together on my end and display them.
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kylewm ahh, I bet that would look neat
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gRegor` Or more likely some small text underneath the comment "liked this post"
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snarfed btw kylewm, we definitely don't need to block on that __doc__ mf2py PR
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snarfed just wanted to get the ball rolling
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snarfed thanks!
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gRegor` Ooh, I didn't realize Github issue comments updated in realtime.
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gRegor` I'm still pretty new to Github
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KartikPrabhu snarfed: kylewm:just saw the __doc__ issue. https://github.com/kartikprabhu/mf2py/issues/36#issuecomment-41862638
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kylewm thanks for the reply Kartik,totally agree with your line of reasoning
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KartikPrabhu neat! I was looking to do this myself, but got caught up in other things. If you get to it first, send a PR! :)
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@kevinmarks How about unofficial #indieweb Homebrew Website Club meetup today at 5pm at @RadiusSF cafe? - happy hour, great local food, wifi, power #f8 (twitter.com/_/status/461645870304219136)
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@schnarfed @kevinmarks see you there! (https://snarfed.org/2014-04-30_twitter-kevinmarks-how-about-unofficial-indieweb) (twitter.com/_/status/461646713027973121)
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@MarkLodatoASU RT @asunews: .@Cronkite_ASU professor @dangillmor talks about the #indieweb movement in a @FutureTenseNow article: https://asunews.asu.edu/20140428-indie-web-movement (twitter.com/_/status/461655974130876416)
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acegiak aaronpk: did we decide my markup on acegiak.net was still subpar?