#indiewebcamp 2014-04-21

2014-04-21 UTC
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rascul
sudo make me a sammich
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KartikPrabhu
kbs: thanks. no, I usually like right-heavy sites. I just played around with the grid till I was satisfied :)
pfenwick, benprew, KevinMarks, squeakytoy, cnxtrm and tantek joined the channel
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acegiak
do we have a flow for replies to replies? like, if someone posts a comment reply to one of my comment replies to another post do I just display the comment and then send an update webmention to the post I'm replying to?
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tantek
acegiak - by flow, I presume you mean *user* flow? If so, how do you want your comments to look on your site?
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@zloozshop
Dapatkan Diskon 25% untuk pembelian paket web hosting atau pembuatan toko online di http://www.indieweb.biz dengan belanja T-shirt min 150rb
(twitter.com/_/status/458063037375987712)
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acegiak
Loqi: tell tantek I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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Loqi
yeah!
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acegiak
!tell tantek I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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snarfed
heh, KartikPrabhu, jinx :P
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snarfed
KartikPrabhu: deployed your change. congrats! i'm also inviting you to the app engine project so you can see the stats and logs
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@VSChawathe
@paullindquist @AlainCouthures Personally that's exactly why JSON/PHP centric @indiewebcamp resonates with RDFa/XProc/PERL6 oriented me..
(twitter.com/_/status/458112130965700608)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /databases-antipattern (-6) "/* Caching ok */ phrasing"
(view diff)
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aaronparecki.com
edited /databases-antipattern (+32) "/* Caching ok */"
(view diff)
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@yatil
Just proposed some accessibility improvements to the #indieweb fragmentions script: https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6 /cc @adactio #HappyEaster
(twitter.com/_/status/458148247690022912)
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KartikPrabhu
any javascript experts? is there a event that triggers on selecting a text?
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KartikPrabhu
only for input and textarea :(
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rascul
so it appears
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KartikPrabhu
I am trying to replicate the select functionality here https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/b21bfc1f63c7
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rascul
whines about people who don't validate their html and css
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KartikPrabhu
sorry! :) I wnated to extend on /fragmention so I can get the /fragmention for a selected piece of text
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rascul
eh wasn't referring specifically to you
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KartikPrabhu
no worries! my html usually is validated. (I hope!) I guess I can try using a mouse only approch
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@voxpelli
@mrmzholland If you still want webmentions to test, then try my https://github.com/voxpelli/node-webmention-testpinger if you have a local version of your site to test on
(twitter.com/_/status/458200628914053120)
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu, KevinMarks, have either of you ever tested the accessibility of hash change or scrollIntoView? https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6
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Loqi
tantek: acegiak left you a message on 4/20 at 7:16pm: I was worried about how to display this http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg but now I realise we don't have any standard way of doing salmon-like upstream comment flows?
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tantek
!tell acegiak that http://acegiak.net/files/2014/04/commentreplytree.jpg diagram looks a lot more complicated than any existing real world comment threading UI, so I would punt on that much complexity. Check /multireply for some simpler thoughts/examples.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi
benwerd: KevinMarks left you a message on 4/4 at 4:50pm: I see the NYT cited you http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/bits/2014/04/04/why-mozillas-chief-had-to-resign/
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benwerd
braces himself
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benwerd
unbraces himself
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kylewm
!tell snarfed I reeeeeally appreciate the detailed review and suggestions
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kylewm
wish i got that kind of feedback at my job ;)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KevinMarks
Wow, long lag there. Hi Ben.
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benwerd
Hi :) Back from a week at a trade show in Vegas, and a week of meetings in Texas. Pass me the kale.
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benwerd
Looking forward to HWC this week.
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kylewm
benwerd: super random question for you about idno. is there a good way to programmatically find /content/all from the / page? (i'm working on a bridgy feature to parse rel=syndication links)
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benwerd
kylewm: it's certainly always linked in the page source, but I'd welcome any thoughts on how to mark it up to make that easier
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kylewm
hmm, the best i've come up with so far is following rel="feed" based on http://indiewebcamp.com/h-feed#canonical_feed_autodiscovery
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KevinMarks
JonathanNeal: that seems an argument for adding focus() back?
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JonathanNeal
Yes, or something else, like selecting the text.
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tantek
benwerd - glad to hear it! could you post an indie event and POSSE FB copy for HWC this week? http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club#URLs
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benwerd
tantek: I will do so shortly!
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rascul
need more east coast indiewebs!
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rascul
can't make nyc this weekend :(
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Loqi
aww, cheer up
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tantek
thanks benwerd!
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tantek
rascul - bummer! any friends you know who would be interested? spread the word!
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rascul
i been trying to get a couple people into the indieweb stuff but it hasn't taken hold yet
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rascul
if i knew the nyc thing was happening well enough in advance i maybe coulda got up there, i'm about 250 miles away
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tantek
rascul - oh no problem - that's understandable
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aaronpk
benwerd: Portland is at Esri PDX this week
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benwerd
ok, will fix
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KevinMarks
What's 250 miles from nyc?
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benwerd
Anyone else going to IIW this year?
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Loqi
snarfed: kylewm left you a message 57 minutes ago: I reeeeeally appreciate the detailed review and suggestions
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snarfed
kylewm: welcome! sorry it was so nitpicky. i really appreciate the contribution, so it's a win win
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snarfed
acegiak: i think mf2 can represent nested reply trees like that - even if it might take N http fetches to resolve the whole thing - so it's more a question of how each site chooses/implements rendering and reply-contexts, right?
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snarfed
there's definitely plenty of prior art to use as examples for that part
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KevinMarks
I signed up for iiw too. We can co-opt an indieweb track. I expect johannes will be there too
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j12t
Yes I will
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j12t
And I’m supposed to tell you that there is an IndieWeb-community-specific discount
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j12t
tell you all in the community
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j12t
if you want to go, talk to me or Kaliya
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KevinMarks
The discount code for indieweb at iiw is INDIE_XVIII
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KevinMarks
Which is 20% off
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sparverius
iiw looks super sweet
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@kevinmarks
“ How can you trademark “indie”? Doesn’t everyone see the irony here?” - @haxor http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325638 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/458296120171446272)
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aaronpk
KevinMarks: he did back down on that one
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KevinMarks
Yes, and that's right under what I linked to.
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aaronpk
ok cool
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aaronpk
well, buried in there anyway
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aaronpk
"wall of text"
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KevinMarks
I could tweet a quote from aral too, I suppose. There's enough aral in the main post though.
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KevinMarks
Clearly I should use fragmentions
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KevinMarks
Hmm. The problem of "I want to share a quote from and a link to this page" requiring two things on the clipboard could be solved by fragmentions too
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aaronpk
I just use JumpCut to give me a stack of clipboards
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KevinMarks
I'm thinking about the phone here, but desktop works too
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snarfed
aaronpk: aka the emacs kill ring!
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JonathanNeal
Anyone here experienced with testing pages for accessibility?
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icco
JonathanNeal, like handicap accessibility or am I up accessibility?
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@ShaneHudson
RT @kevinmarks: “ How can you trademark “indie”? Doesn’t everyone see the irony here?” - @haxor http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2014/04/20/its-indie-time/comment-page-1/#comment-325638 #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/458302150708572160)
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JonathanNeal
I’m interested in knowing if scrollIntoView triggers anything in accessibility tools, or if I need to alert the user to a change of page view differently https://github.com/chapmanu/fragmentions/pull/6
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JonathanNeal
icco: sorry, but I don’t think that is going to address my question, but I’ll not bother you.
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icco
ok dokee, just a shot in the dark, good luck.
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KevinMarks
Says it should, but not how
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tantek
aaronpk, caseorganic, kevinmarks - currently we we have two levels of participants at indiewebcamps: Creators & Apprentices
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tantek
I'd like to consider introducing a third level between those two: Bloggers
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tantek
As we start to reach out to and bring in Generation 2 folks, we're encountering more and more traditional bloggers, and I think it would be good to explicitly include them
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tantek
bloggers are people that do already have their own site, and regularly (like say at least once a month) post on it
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tantek
but may not consider themselves creators/builders, and they might not have indieauth setup either.
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tantek
so they're more than an apprentice (since they already have their own site and are posting on it), but don't feel like calling themselves a creator (what I've heard from a few)
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tantek
what do you think? thinking of introducing this new level for IndieWebCampNYC and then explicitly reaching out to NYC bloggers like Anil Dash etc.
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KevinMarks
Interesting. I think of bloggers as creators.
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aaronpk
interesting
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KevinMarks
Is it more that they don't like the "apprentice" nomenclature?
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tantek
KevinMarks - I also think of bloggers as creators, but they don't think of themselves that way
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aaronpk
but you're saying bloggers don't think of themselves as creators?
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tantek
because they associate "creator" with developer/designer
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aaronpk
beat me to it
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tantek
KevinMarks - they're also not "just" an apprentice
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KevinMarks
http://indiewebcamp.com/generations already defines bloggers as #2
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tantek
KevinMarks: some bloggers are happy to apprentice with a creator, others feel they're already indieweb like but are not quite a creator, so they feel they don't quite fit
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tantek
KevinMarks: right - hence why I want to explicitly include bloggers as a sign-up group
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KevinMarks
makes sense.
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tantek
this also has a nice letter ranking [C]reators [B]loggers [A]pprentices
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aaronpk
I like it
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: not really sure how accessibility works with fragmentions. How do browsers usually do that?
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tantek
anybody else have any opinions on adding "Bloggers" as another level of participant between Creators and Apprentices at IndieWebCamp?
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tantek
caseorga_: thoughts?
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KartikPrabhu
gregor`: is there a HWC-Chicago this week?
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gRegor`
I was planning on it. I put it on the wiki and RSVPed
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snarfed
tantek: +1
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: well, it seems like JAWS does something with scrollIntoView
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snarfed
would you still expect that they'd be able to indieauth in and rsvp themselves?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: aah so it would be device/app dependent
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KartikPrabhu
gRegor`: cool! I'll do that too
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KevinMarks
Judging by indieWebcamp SF, getting indieauth working is a good initial task to try with help. There are enough steps that it puts people off, but works as a first achievement
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tantek
KevinMarks - agreed that it's a good initial task (per /Getting_Started ) - disagreed about the "enough steps". There shouldn't be. Sounds like a documentation or a communication problem.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: on a related note, I was attempting to replicate the select text functionality here https://medium.com/cool-code-pal/b21bfc1f63c7 for fragmentions. Basically the idea being you select a text and you get a contextual menu that gives you its fragmention for sharing. But I am not good with Javascript
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KartikPrabhu
the most I was able to do is get the select text in an alert box: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html
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JonathanNeal
Great idea!
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KartikPrabhu
ultimately it could just be in the browser menu with 'copy paste' and all those options
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gregorlove.com
edited /databases-antipattern (+945) "/* MySQL portability */ I feel this is a misleading example. Comments welcome."
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
on iOS you could add a service, though those are obscure enough poepl don't know about them
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: this is for fragmentions?
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KevinMarks_
there may be a way to affect the popup menu with a plugin, though doing something like medium would be more subtle
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: right now it is only on 'mouseup' event so no touch but I haven't written any touch based JS ever!
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KartikPrabhu
also annoying popups are annoying!
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tantek.com
edited /databases-antipattern (+924) "/* MySQL portability */ MySQL upgrades can blow away databases, WordPress upgrades can silently corrupt UTF8 content"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
edited /databases-antipattern (+315) "/* MySQL portability */ another citation of MySQL portability failure"
(view diff)
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tantek
you want citations? I got citations. No desire to ever bother with setting up / learning / using MySQL until this kind of nonsense is completely fixed. Never had any of those problems with simple flat UTF8 text files.
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KevinMarks_
I remember that at Technorati. Had do some very delicate and careful work to keep the utf8 data we'd been storing int he DB to stay in utf8 when SQL decided that it finally understood utf8 and "helpfully" re-encoded from the old defaults
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tantek
right, needing "delicate and careful work" = fragile system.
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KevinMarks_
similarly with encoding assumptions in the various programming languages int he chain there
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KevinMarks_
PHP did something similar, changing default encoding assumption between versions
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KevinMarks_
Java assumed everything should be 16-bit unicode.
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KevinMarks_
Perl didn't give a fuck
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KevinMarks_
Python understood unicode, but you had to remind it not to default to coercing through ascii or get runtime errors
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KartikPrabhu
this is quite ironic in the light of this tweet https://twitter.com/VSChawathe/status/458112130965700608
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@VSChawathe
@paullindquist @AlainCouthures Personally that's exactly why JSON/PHP centric @indiewebcamp resonates with RDFa/XProc/PERL6 oriented me..
(twitter.com/_/status/458112130965700608)
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KartikPrabhu
would have never thought indiewebcamp gave the impression of being JSON/PHP centric
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kylewm
ohhh Anil Dash would be awesome to have at an IWC. kottke.org is in NYC too
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KevinMarks_
and paul ford
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: I think https://github.com/indieweb definitely gives that impression
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KartikPrabhu
possibly! hey how do we python guys get added to that :P
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kylewm
does anyone show reply contexts for h-events?
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aaronpk
kylewm: yes I do, but the link I was about to send you is broken!
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aaronpk
it should be fixed when I push up my DB stuff... crap
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kylewm
oh sounds good! sorry it is broken but i can wait :)
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aaronpk
seriously considering adding a continuous integration test suite to my site so I can't accidentally do crap like this
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KevinMarks_
aaronpk: you can add a comment to the db thread Tantek was posting
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snarfed
testing++
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Loqi
testing has 3 karma
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aaronpk
yeah I want to set up a list of URLs to watch and the test script will make sure they always return sane results, looking for my HTML header and also looking for the parsed microformats to be as expected
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aaronpk
hm citation needed for "[mysqldump | scp | mysql] doesn't work across MySQL versions/configurations"
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aaronpk
in my experience that's actually the *only* reliable way to port data between different mysql versions
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aaronpk
or between servers
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KevinMarks_
encoding can still bit you
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aaronpk
yes definitely
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aaronpk
but that's different from "doesn't work"
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snarfed
agreed, i've definitely done that across *many* different mysql versions
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snarfed
i'm sure there's some set of versions that might break some part of it, but anecdotally, i'm guessing it's a minority
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KevinMarks_
I remember it circa 2005
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aaronpk
I want to update that to be more specific about the encoding problems and --skip-extended-insert
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KevinMarks_
the comment about "use utf8 in the first place" is a wonderful bit of "If I were going there I wouldn't be starting from here"
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KevinMarks_
remembers having to cope with webpages and feeds with multiple encodings mixed together, because people copy/paste
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aaronparecki.com
edited /databases-antipattern (+37) "/* MySQL portability */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
wow, chrome can no longer search for python files
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KevinMarks_
if I go to google and search for [sanitize.py] it hides the search box, puts sanitize.py in the adderss bar, and then fails as it isn't a URL
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KevinMarks_
is .py a TLD?
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KevinMarks_
ah, paraguay
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kylewm
ack ebcdic!
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bret
KevinMarks_ press tab!
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KevinMarks_
well, that works, but showing the search on the "domain did not resolve" page would make more sense
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bret
i agree
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bret
whoa, when did that get written?
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bret
rad!
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KevinMarks_
amber wrote it after indiewebcamp sf iirc
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kbs
hm, how do plain-text files escape the 'what-encoding-am-i-in' issue?
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KartikPrabhu
kbs: i think the point being made is that they are more robust to changes...
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kbs
I think that argument makes good sense to me :) but maybe I misunderstood the specific complaint about encoding formats
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kbs
[I find git to be a fairly handy database, for plain-text content especially]
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KartikPrabhu
kbs: that seems like a good idea!
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KevinMarks_
they don't escape the problem, but they are less likely to be globally breakable
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kbs
KevinMarks_: makes sense *nod*
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KartikPrabhu
yeah that is mostly what i got from that disucssions
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KartikPrabhu
also trying to save timezones in MySQL was a pain!
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aaronpk
timezones are a pain in general
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KartikPrabhu
but very easy to do in ISO format in text files
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu: past tense? are you moving to flat files?
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kbs
fewer expectations from text files, hence easier to see the issues :)
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KartikPrabhu
past tense because I got it working! Though I am trying to move to files
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: if you end up making a flat file system that work with python let me know :P
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kylewm
oh oh makes sense
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KevinMarks_
timezones are a way to create dependencies in your code on legislative bodies in countries you have never heard of
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tantek
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 20 karma
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tantek
KevinMarks: [named] timezones you mean, right?
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KevinMarks_
yes, fair
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tantek
as opposed to numerical offset timezones
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tantek
ok cool, just wanted to know before I quoted you :)
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KevinMarks_
numerical offset timezones are just maths
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tantek
drat - too long for me to quote in a single Falcon tweet ;)
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: agreed! hence using the numerical offset method using ISO formats in text files is great!
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KevinMarks_
you could trim "are a way to"
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aaronpk
problem with numerical timezone offsets is you can't store it in a user profile as a preference
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aaronpk
cause then you're wrong half the year
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KevinMarks_
move to arizona
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aaronpk
yeah arizona isn't big enough to fit all the users
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tantek
aaronpk - you can store their home city as a preference
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: DST?
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aaronpk
but then you have more problems
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aaronpk
city names are more variable than timezone names. at least there are well maintained lists of timezone names.
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tantek
if you're going to do dynamic (i.e. OlsenDB) lookup, then might as well do dynamic lookup from a piece of real-world human static information (home city) rather than named TZ
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KevinMarks_
updating your user profile twice a year is probably a good idea anyway (I just realised I hadn't updated mine on blogger in 2 years yesterday)
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tantek
aaronpk - that depends on the choosing UI. e.g. if you use a map and let a user click on their home city
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tantek
none of this typing nonsense that iOS does
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tantek
(seriously, why are there ANY UIs, especially on mobile that make you *type* the name of a city?!?)
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aaronpk
i'm talking about what you actually store in the system tho. the city name? city+region+country? some sort of globally unique city ID? the lat/lng?
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tantek
is tempted to propose an <input type="locality">
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snarfed
kylewm, KartikPrabhu: if you want an example of a flat file based python CMS, pyblosxom is a decent self contained one
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snarfed
(if a bit long in the tooth)
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tantek
aaronpk - per vCard/hCard/adr/h-card/h-adr - this is a solved problem :D
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_, JonathanNeal: is there someplace the fragmention algorithm is located? That is a set of rules that a fragmention string should follow so that the search works as expected?
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tantek
locality, region, country-name
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aaronpk
but it's still not easy enough to find the timezone or location of a city given that information
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KartikPrabhu
snarfed: thanks! will look into it. I was more inclined to use mf2+HTML to store and mf2py to retrieve. Golden Hammer and all :P
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aaronpk
cause no way am I going to stick a database of all cities into my code, that's huge
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tantek
aaronpk - how is that not a simple web service?
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tantek
+ caching = done?
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aaronpk
it is, it's called geocoding
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KevinMarks_
typing a name is easier than reading a map for a lot of people
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tantek
KevinMarks: what? citation for that user study please
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aaronpk
(i would much rather type the first few letters of a name and click from a filtered list than use a map)
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aaronpk
especially when adding more cities to my world clock or weather app, cause i'm usually not at the location i'm trying to add, and i dont wanna pan a map around all day to find the city i'm traveling to next week
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kbs
haha :-)
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kbs
has trouble with finding his way around, and can relate :)
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tantek
the street signs problem is real
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tantek
especially in older countries
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kbs
Buying my first GPS was like wearing spectacles for the first time...
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aaronpk
fwiw I use this a bunch to find the timezone given a lat/lng https://github.com/aaronpk/Timezone-API
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KevinMarks_
I use google maps spoken directiosn while cycling, and it says shit like "go north east"
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KevinMarks_
like I'm the one with a compass in
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aaronpk
with a good geocoder you could go from locality+region+country to timezone offset
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tantek
right
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aaronpk
unfortunately it's not trivial to find or run a good geocoder
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aaronpk
most of the issues around it end up on the business/licensing side rather than technical
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KevinMarks_
also it says "california bike route 37" (Or something) when it means "Market Street"
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tantek.com
created /timezone (+240) "stub based on kevinmarks dfn"
(view diff)
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tantek
aaronpk - fine, I've stubbed a wiki page on it, feel free to document your implementation / brainstorming ;)
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KevinMarks_
why are obviously synthetic people tryign to friend me on facebook? https://www.facebook.com/lanshi.shi.9
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KartikPrabhu
synthetic people are people too! :P
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tantek
KevinMarks - it's natural in the course of evolution of any online "social" network
jedahan_, benwerd and benwerd_ joined the channel
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: did you find what you are looking for?
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tantek
!tell kylewm re: "reply contexts for h-events" do you mean like, in an RSVP post?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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kylewm
tantek: yes, exactly
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Loqi
kylewm: tantek left you a message 19 seconds ago: re: "reply contexts for h-events" do you mean like, in an RSVP post?
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tantek
kylewm - check the current RSVP examples - pretty sure they all have *some* sort of reply-context: https://indiewebcamp.com/RSVP#IndieWeb_Examples
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kylewm
whoa, that looks awesome aaronpk
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aaronpk
thanks!
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kylewm.com
edited /rsvp (+1) "/* Nick Doty */ .com -> .name"
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junglecode.net
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+306) "/* Creators */"
(view diff)
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tantek
Woot!
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tantek
welcome jet!
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jet_
tantek: thx!
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tantek
related to this whole "indie-*" conversation: https://twitter.com/t/status/458375088312942592
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Loqi
[@t] @dsearls @aral I agree with @haxor.
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aaronpk
quoting aral, "I don’t think the benefit of using Indie as the trading name for Article 12 Ltd ... is worth the confusion and fear/uncertainty/doubt that it might cause. So we’re going to drop it and use the current company name..."
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aaronpk
and "I’ve now removed Indie from the list of trademarks on the site."
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tantek
aaronpk - that's just the word "indie" by itself (which yes was ridiculous)
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tantek
AFAIK he still wants to trademark specific prefix uses like "indie phone"
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tantek
which is why I said it's a generic prefix
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aaronpk
I believe that is the case yes
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aaronpk
so funny thing about trademarks...
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tantek
also this whole thing about worrying about trademarking product names before you have anything to show/ship is ridiculous
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tantek
so I'm kinda calling bullshit on that
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aaronpk
so a trademark has to be an adjective, not a noun. so actually "Indie" makes a better trademark than "Indie Phone"
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tantek
^^^ IANAL
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aaronpk
IANALBHTTLOLR
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aaronpk
(but have talked to lots of lawyers recently)
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KevinMarks_
whereas registering domain names before you have anything to show is perfectly reasonable
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benwerd_
looks at his domain name portfolio and coughs nonchalantly
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tantek
KevinMarks - domains names are much cheaper :)
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KevinMarks_
which reminds me, does anyone what pythononaplane.com before I let it lapse?
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KevinMarks_
s/what/want/
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: which reminds me, does anyone want pythononaplane.com before I let it lapse?
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aaronpk
also trademarks apply in a specific industry, which is why companies like GitHub register their trademark for both software as well as t-shirts
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aaronpk
s/t-shirts/apparel
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Loqi
aaronpk meant to say: also trademarks apply in a specific industry, which is why companies like GitHub register their trademark for both software as well as apparel
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benwerd_
For me, I find the withdrawal of indie as a trademark in order to play well with the community hard to reconcile in good faith with very public condemnations of organizations related to the community.
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@t
@dsearls @aral Want to be "indie"? Tweet from your own domain. Til then it's all tweet no action. #indieweb cc: @haxor (ttk.me t4Vg4)
(twitter.com/_/status/458377124005826560)
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tantek
benwerd - yeah, the public condemnations aren't very "community" aware are they?
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aaronpk
which organizations are these? I must have missed something
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tantek
like Mozilla
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benwerd_
lots of mozilla-bashing due to its revenue ties to google.
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KevinMarks_
aral is pushing the "silos are evil corporations" line hard
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tantek
which is not helpful
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aaronpk
super not helpful
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tantek
silos are clumsy corporations
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KevinMarks_
as opposed to the "silos are a design error which we can mitigate" one
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tantek
clumsiness sometimes looks like evil
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tantek
KevinMarks, exactly
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JonathanNeal
KartikPrabhu: did you find what you are looking for?
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tantek
or, silos are scaffolding we can use to build out the indieweb
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@_tessr
@benwerd @caseorganic definitely very thought-provoking, especially as someone working on a 3rd party platform. Trying to be responsible.
(twitter.com/_/status/457217377801756672)
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aaronpk
she works at Medium, where Amber's indieweb talk was hosted last week
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tantek
thought provoking the troops at Medium is a good approach
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KevinMarks_
we had a good chat with them in the pub afterwards too
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tantek
KevinMarks - I'd like to hear more about that
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KevinMarks_
I was talking about wanting them to be a good PESOS player
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tantek
better to have them be a good POSSE player
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KevinMarks_
let us publish medium posts on our own domains, like blogger used to with ftp
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tantek
e.g. have specific UI for cross-posting to Medium
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KevinMarks_
they see themselves as an authoring environment primarily
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tantek
not a magazine?
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aaronpk
sounds like they'd make a great micropub client :)
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KevinMarks_
also talked about webmentions (and fragmentions) feeding into their comments system
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KevinMarks_
and their invisible UX problems
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KevinMarks_
who knew they had a download option? or rel-author support?
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KevinMarks_
they were talking about "embedding medium posts on your site"
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tantek
glad we captured that FAQ :)
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KevinMarks_
ie thinking like youtube
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tantek
KevinMarks_: sigh. they don't get it. no one wants that nonsense.
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aaronpk
(it only partially answers his question, cause heroku and meteor are not quite the same as a generic web host)
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KevinMarks_
well, people do - see scribd etc
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tantek
scribd is for hosting *other peoples* PDFs
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KevinMarks_
but posting to my own site too is better
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tantek
not your own content
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tantek
I mean, in practice
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KevinMarks_
OK, slideshare then
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KevinMarks_
I said "that worked really well for google wave"
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@aaronpk
@JohnB In general, it's not lock-in if you can easily pick up and move somewhere else. cc @caseorganic More info... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/04/21/1/indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/458379233069260800)
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tantek
KevinMarks LOL! Nice retort. Were they speechless?
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kylewm
aaronpk: I don't understand "trademark has to be an adjective, not a noun" ... what's an example of a trademarked adjective?
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aaronpk
kylewm: technically every trademark is an adjective that describes a generic noun
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: not really! basically I'm trying to reverse the fragmention algo to make my "find the fragmention for this piece" mock up
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KevinMarks_
it was a bit mean, really. we went back and forth a lot, with me making more blogger analogies
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aaronpk
Xerox copiers, Kleenex tissues...
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kylewm
oh, like Nabisco Foods
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kylewm
there you go, ok that makes sense
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KartikPrabhu
Google Glass not Glass to be more topical
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aaronpk
yep. so "Indie phone" would work if "Indie" is the trademark
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kylewm
what about iPhone?
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KartikPrabhu
"i" possibly might do it
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aaronpk
iPhone mobile digital device
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aaronpk
LaserWriter printer
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KevinMarks_
If I download my posts from medium, I get standalone html files
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KevinMarks_
with Exported from Medium on April 21, 2014. View the original at the bottom
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j12t
I have never heard that adjective explanation of trademarks, and I have heard the speech many times.
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aaronpk
Retina display
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j12t
there’s a product category, and the mark identifies a particular product from a particular vendor within the category
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-04-23-homebrew-website-club (-20) "/* URLs */ add SF URLs"
(view diff)
jet_ joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: you think it is possible to automate that from Medium? Also what happens to the "annotations"?
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KevinMarks_
however it hotlinks the image files on their site
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KevinMarks_
don't know, not got any
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KartikPrabhu
I'd annotate things as a test case... you got a link?
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aaronpk
if you incorrectly use your trademark as a noun, you risk losing it. that's why companies like Adobe push so hard to keep using "Photoshop" properly
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KevinMarks_
pretty sure it keeps them
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KevinMarks_
or a verb
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KevinMarks_
"google that"
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j12t
…as a noun that describes the category, not the product
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KevinMarks_
"xerox that"
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KartikPrabhu
man! now I should come up with a clever annotation :P
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KevinMarks_
"eventually every domain becomes a porn site"
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KevinMarks_
I think I cited that in my other post too
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tantek.com
edited /Blogger (+291) "criticism templates use XML"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
wonders if timbl has said that in public
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KevinMarks_
makes it public
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tantek
benwerd, does idno support receiving pingback (as well as webmention) for comments / RSVPs?
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tantek
Thinking of asking [B]loggers for IndieWebCampNYC to RSVP by blogging on their own site that they're going (i.e. if they don't want to or can't setup IndieAuth)
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tantek
and then thought, what if we asked them to cite / link to a specific indie event URL
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tantek
and thus pingback to it
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KevinMarks_
interesting, my post is in this collection: https://medium.com/opposite-of-fragile
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aaronpk
benwerd_: if not, you can quickly enable pingback support via the webmention.io forwarding
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benwerd_
tantek: it does not, currently
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benwerd_
aaronpk: I'll take a look at that, but might also try and implement native pingback
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tantek
does View Source on http://werd.io/2014/homebrew-website-club-3 and doesn't find any rel=pingback
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benwerd_
yeah, not yet - but it's something I can take a look at ;)
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tantek
benwerd, even though you can't make it, perhaps you could post an indie event for IndieWebCampNYC also?
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: do let me know how the annotations export (if they do...) interested to see their markup
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tantek
is embarrassed he still doesn't have indie event posting support, nevermind receiving/displaying webmentions/RSVPs :/
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KevinMarks_
I think they don't
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tantek
got distracted by people focused mobile comms.
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KartikPrabhu
aah well!
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KartikPrabhu
fragmentions ftw!
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KartikPrabhu
side question: does anyone like the "5mins to read this" warnings that websites have?
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aaronpk
benwerd_: the pingback xml is annoying but not the end of the world to deal with, but using webmention.io forwarding is easier :)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: never believed them
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: speed reader?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: totally subject dependent
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KartikPrabhu
true! and it seems more like a warning than an invitation
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kylewm
I like them, KartikPrabhu. or perhaps, i dislike the opposite, where it's hard to tell how long something is because it's split up into pages
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: pagination is quite bad... specially for really small articles.
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KevinMarks_
hm, also medium exports name="12c9" on the paragraphs
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tantek
not id?!?
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tantek
deprecated
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+908) "add blogger instructions and section, prioritize in-person Creators, Bloggers, Apprentices over other participants"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
going to see if I can make my fragmentions post work on medium
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tantek
aaronpk, kevinmarks, benwerd, snarfed, please review my addition of "Bloggers" as a third type of participant here and let me know if that sounds good to you: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC/Guest_List
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KevinMarks_
interesting, pasting from HTML works pretty well
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KevinMarks_
though medium doesn't have a way to style something <code>
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC/Guest_List (+0) "/* Capacity */"
(view diff)
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KevinMarks_
are medium posts expected to have an image at the top?
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tantek.com
created /IndieWebCampNYC (+22) "redir"
(view diff)
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tantek.com
created /NYC (+22) "r"
(view diff)
benprew joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
fragmentions link getting demo update: http://kartikprabhu.com/static/demo/fragmention.html select some text to see its fragmention in the top-right corner :) no claims of being correct also wip
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KevinMarks_
heh, if I try to click the fragmention link to copy it, it changes
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KevinMarks_
put it in a textarea?
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KartikPrabhu
it does :(
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: browser? it seems to work in FF
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JonathanNeal
But ideally, you wouldn’t just update the hash on select.
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KevinMarks_
I think I double-clicked to select he text and it went odd
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benwerd_
oh, hey, medium just sent me an email about this.
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: man my JS looks much more horrible! than yours :)
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KevinMarks_
about what?
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KevinMarks_
me posting?
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KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks_: in FF even double clicking and all that works correctly .... browser quirks :(
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JonathanNeal
So, what do you think is a good experience for creating fragmentions? That when you highlight text, it gives you a little popup like you’ve done?
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KartikPrabhu
JonathanNeal: Not pop up but something like what medium does. A little contextual button shows up close by, which you can click to get the link
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KartikPrabhu
ideally it would be in the browser contextual menu
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KartikPrabhu
oh it stopped raining! walking home... be back in a bit
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC (+638) "/* Organizers */ note we should explicitly invite NYC creators and bloggers who have shown interest in the indie web"
(view diff)
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tantek
everyone: if you've got suggestions for NYC based creators or bloggers we should reach out to - please add them here: http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/NYC#Invite_NYC_Creators
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tantek.com
edited /2014/NYC (+32) "/* Invite NYC Creators */ linky"
(view diff)
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Uksurreyman
hi
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tantek
hello Uksurreyman!
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KevinMarks_
hm medium pretty-prints the CSS it injects, but dumps the HTML in without newlines after the paragraphs
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KevinMarks_
and id doesn't export annotations
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Loqi
KevinMarks_ meant to say: and it doesn't export annotations
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tantek
probably because they need a format for that ;)
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kylewm.com
edited /2014/NYC (+113) "/* Invite NYC Bloggers */ added kottke"
(view diff)