#indiewebcamp 2014-03-21

2014-03-21 UTC
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tantek
or rather, if the format recommends escaping, it's a format failure.
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tommorris
aaronpk: there’s nothing particularly wrong with putting Atom elements inside RSS 2.0 feeds, except for the whole RSS 2.0 thing. ;)
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tantek
escaping makes feeds *even bulkier*
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tantek
hey aaronpk - next IndieWebCamp is actually NYC so I'm going to fix the top level redirects to point to that (rather than /2014 PDX)
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tantek.com
edited /Guest_List (+4) "NYC is the next one"
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tantek.com
edited /Schedule (+1) "NYC is the next one"
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tommorris
my feed is broken at the moment. I’m so tempted to just replace it with the output of an hAtom converter.
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tantek
do it! Would be interesting to see the result
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tantek
that would be a nice thing to run at the community level
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gRegor`
tantek: I got the new attendee template in place on http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List#Creators
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gRegor`
Next I'm going to set up a slightly modified version for apprentices.
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tommorris
tantek: the only thing that is putting me off is I have some custom feed stuff for App.net
pfenwick, krendil, KevinMarks, melvster, KartikPrabhu, ricmac_, npdoty, fmarier, scor, pauloppenheim and ricmac joined the channel
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kylewm
I used the hashtag #siloproblems on Twitter, and it would appear the other hits are people dealing with actual grain silos, and people who work at a fish-n-chips place in NY :D
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snarfed
kylewm++
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Loqi
kylewm has 5 karma
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snarfed
i have this far-off idea to eventually bundle activitystreams-unofficial, portablecontacts-unofficial, etc all together, unify the APIs, and rename the whole library "granary" in line with the silo metaphore
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snarfed
i own granary.io and everything
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snarfed
yet another buy-the-domain-and-maybe-never-get-to-the-actual-project
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kylewm
love it, and I just learned the correct spelling of that word
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snarfed
granary?
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kylewm
yes, would've thought "grainary"
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kylewm
ohh, hadn't looked at portablecontacts before
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kylewm
that's very nice!
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KartikPrabhu
w00t! added short url redirection http://kartikprabhu.com/~n3 any thoughts?
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Loqi
giggles
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kylewm
is "3" the database id?
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kylewm
maybe I have really drunk the IWC koolaid, but http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic put me off using the db id in my permalinks
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kylewm
I like the ~ though, reminds me of the good ol' days :)
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KartikPrabhu
it is an encoded id which turns out to be same for lower numbers
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KartikPrabhu
i did not understand the algorithmic page :(
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kylewm
I guess the idea that (e.g., if you lost your database), you could conceivably re-create the links if they are based on something
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KartikPrabhu
oh i see. is the problem that if my database table changes then all ids will be mixed up and mess up my urls?
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kylewm
the database won't renumber your rows, but if you exported and reimported somewhere else, maybe they could?
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kylewm
a little out of my depth now
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KartikPrabhu
yeah must ask tantek
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KartikPrabhu
!tell tantek: I was implementing a shorter URL scheme using db ids. but a bit confused about it due to http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic ... any elaboration would be helpful! :)
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm
!tell Loqi thanks for all your hard work
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
nice tr kylewm
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kylewm
was kinda hoping (s)he'd explode
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KartikPrabhu
yeah Loqi is sort of smart
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Loqi
dude
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: do you have short urls? if so, how do you generate them?
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kylewm
I followed tantek's algorithm more or less to the letter (except I think I am using UTC times where he uses Pacific)
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kylewm
uncreative...
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KartikPrabhu
so it is datetime+?
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kylewm
after 5pm yes
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kylewm
sorry is that what you meant?
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KartikPrabhu
oh no found the algo. I was asking datetime can't be enough but there is some unique identifier
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kylewm
oh, yep datetime.toordinal() - date(1970, 1, 1).toordinal()
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KartikPrabhu
yeah but usually there can be multiple posts a day specially for notes
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kylewm
so there is a fourth # tacked on at the end that is a counter within the day
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KartikPrabhu
oh but what if you delete a note?
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kylewm
which feels a little bit like the same problem algorithmic warns against, but i couldn't think of a way around it
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kylewm
I had that question too
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kylewm
that would make it more difficult to reconstruct in the future
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kylewm
wondered if ppl "hide" notes instead of deleting them
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KartikPrabhu
but i like the algorithmic idea in spirit. interesting. will wait for tantek to arrive
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kylewm
cool, I'm heading out but will be interested to know what you find out, good night!
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Loqi
sweet dreams
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bret
Made a little bit of progress. Hating the node express web framework the more I use it. iwc-log-feed.herokuapp.com
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bear
our node devs like Hapi (after having done express for 2 yrs)
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bret
I can't figure hapi out
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bret
Trying to get their deva to write better exMples and tutorials
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bret
Devs
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bear
yea, they have a contest active for that
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bear
our dev (who is a hapi contrib) just pointed me to this post @bret -- https://medium.com/p/d82777afaa4b
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bret
bear: rad!
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bear
hope it helps
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bret
maybe, i need a lot of hand holding still. like, full on project walk throughs
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bear
nods
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bret
im starting to think node isnt the greatest place to start
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bret
i gtg to bed
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bret
later!
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bear
night!
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cweiske
it'd be nice if the wiki would store my URL, so that I don't have to type it on the next login
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cweiske.de
edited /code (+159) "/* Cross-site fork buttons */"
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Loqi
tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 5 hours, 19 minutes ago: I was implementing a shorter URL scheme using db ids. but a bit confused about it due to http://indiewebcamp.com/algorithmic ... any elaboration would be helpful! :)
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tantek
!tell KartikPrabhu using db ids is NOT algorithmic and introduces fragility.
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yeah I sort of understood that later. but ins't using n-th note on this day fragile too, if you delete that note?
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Loqi
KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 56 seconds ago: using db ids is NOT algorithmic and introduces fragility.
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tantek
if you delete a note then it's fine for it to 404, unless it's a comment in which case you want it to 410 to follow comment CRUD protocol
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KartikPrabhu
yes but if you base your URL shortening on "date + nth note on this date" (assuming that is what Whistle is doing) then it will mess up the other URLs
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pauloppenheim
KartikPrabhu: if you want a tag more specific than day, would timestamp work?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - per the need to 410 gone for deleted comments, even your deleted notes should have tombstones
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tantek
and thus you won't re-use their nth-ness.
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KartikPrabhu
pauloppenheim yes that is one of the thigns I am considering. but doing it with slugs would be best IMO
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: aah I see
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KartikPrabhu
much thought needed.
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tantek
also doing it with slugs is a bad idea, because your slugs should be editable without breaking the permalink
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KartikPrabhu
interesting. so using slugs in URLs is a bad idea?
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tantek
no, depending on them for uniqueness is a bad idea
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pauloppenheim
ie, /2014-03-21/ - post index, and /2014-03-21/00:15/ could be the single post index?
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tantek
kartikprabhu - all these design decisions and more are explained here: tantek.com/w/Whistle
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tantek
pauloppenheim: or you might post more than one thing per second
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tantek
er, per minute
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pauloppenheim
i'm personally not convinced by the idea of "permalink", i'm not sure anything on the web will be "permanent"
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KartikPrabhu
yes diud read that hence all the confusion. That goes against everythign I have built so far :(
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tantek
there's lots there that goes against A LOT of things that were built before
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tantek
deliberately
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KartikPrabhu
true. but now I am conflicted whether to correct using slugs for unique URLs or to keep going with it
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - you asked about the slug, but you must have missed this then if you did read that page: "The slug is purely for display and search, the unique portion of the URL is actually:"
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tantek
anyway, the slug is semi-human-readable, thus it should be editable without breaking anything
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tantek
thus it is unsuitable for permalink status
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pauloppenheim
the issue is selecting immutability - you can make anything not change, so long as it remains actually immutable
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KartikPrabhu
needs to make a decision. sounds like designing :P
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pauloppenheim
KartikPrabhu: a content hash won't change ;)
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pauloppenheim
SHA256 url :)
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pauloppenheim
that's "permanent"
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pauloppenheim
i'm a bad person to talk to about this right now, i'm actually dealing with it professionally right now
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tantek
pauloppenheim: not helpful for a permalink, since content does change :P would be helpful for a checksum, but that's different.
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KartikPrabhu
on a more positive note. Just showed off POSSEing notes to twitter to a friend and the reaction went "oooo nice!!! O_O le me is impressed"
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tantek
that's great!
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tantek
re: "sounds like designing" - that's why I documented my design with reasoning, so you could just copy it if you wanted to.
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pauloppenheim
if it changes, date becomes less meaningful
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: yes. and I am very glad you document all of this. Much to learn!
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tantek
I was tired of people building fragile systems, and then copying their designs in a cargo cult manner.
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tantek
So I figured I'd fix it, and show my work, hoping that some folks might find that (and check my work!) instead of just doing things the way everyone else does things.
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tantek
database ID crap, slugs as fragile permalinks etc.
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tantek
so much badly designed software out there
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KartikPrabhu
yes. I learnt to use slugs from Django tutorials :|
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pauloppenheim
dates are fragile for mutable content
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pauloppenheim
IMO wikipedia is a better example for URLs with mutable content
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pauloppenheim
(ie, using a moved page for renames, with an indication of move)
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tantek
there's a lot of crappy designs in frameworks. A LOT.
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tantek
pauloppenheim: creation dates are not fragile.
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pauloppenheim
tantek: they're not memorable
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KartikPrabhu
wishes he had thought of the whole URL thing before making stuff
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tantek
pauloppenheim: they are memorable approximately, and relative to other things, so as long as you can remember things nearby, you can easily find them
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pauloppenheim
i've actually had problems with this from using a date indexed system for over a decade
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: got to start with well designed URLs for a website
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KartikPrabhu
yes. but once a mistake is made there should be a way to correct it
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pauloppenheim
KartikPrabhu: yes, that is the important part
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pauloppenheim
unfortunately the idea of "permalink" makes changing difficult
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pauloppenheim
it may be worth giving up on the idea if your content is still searchable somehow
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KartikPrabhu
yeah I'll have to think a nit more on how to make this work
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tantek
creation date works fine
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tantek
also for searchability - hence the permashortcitations
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tantek
pauloppenheim: I'm having difficulty connecting any of your criticisms to real world examples.
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pauloppenheim
i took a photo of a notecard of the 10 places i want to visit in the next 20 years, sometime in the past 5 years
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pauloppenheim
now find it
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pauloppenheim
i can sit and try to specify the date better, but if it had only been tagged "travel", i would be able to find it in a snap
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pauloppenheim
human memory is demonstrably fallow
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pauloppenheim
it is located at a canonical path on my hard drive, but that path has no indication of the topic.
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pauloppenheim
there's an example for you.
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@xjunhee
RT @RPlayerword: @xjunhee RT?NEW FANBASE,SEDIA WGF,WGL,MENFESS,CURCOL,REQPICT,GAMES,MINTA SARAN UNAME?BOLEH!NEED ADMIN CEK WEBMENTION FOR F…
(twitter.com/_/status/446914545978589184)
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KartikPrabhu
well! that is a spam bot
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pauloppenheim
tantek: don't get me wrong
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pauloppenheim
i wish my scenarios wasn't a problem, because then I would have one less problem :)
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tantek
!spammer xjunhee
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Loqi
Got it! There are now 10 spammers blacklisted
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tantek
pauloppenheim: that's poor reasoning. yes you should tag stuff. does the obviate the need for simpler permalinks? no. do permalinks solve everything? no. they never claimed to.
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pauloppenheim
then what's the value?
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cweiske
something you can link to
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cweiske
and knowing that the link will not break
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pauloppenheim
cweiske: right, but the wikipedia solution works for that constraint as well
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tantek
pauloppenheim: wow really? simple and short way of sharing a pointer to some info on the web.
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pauloppenheim
and does not require "url design"
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tantek
pauloppenheim: not true. stuff (including URLs) get deleted on wikipedia all the time by deletionists.
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tantek
WP URLs are badly unreliable in that regard
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: can anyone use the spammer commnd?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: no, I think there's a whitelist
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tantek
but if you want to simple do the commands with a !tell aaronpk,tantek in front of it - one of us will notice and do it I'm sure ;)
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pauloppenheim
tantek: false
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tantek
pauloppenheim: "does not require url design" - only if you don't care about the UX of URLs
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pauloppenheim
tantek: deleted pages show up
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pauloppenheim
(related, lol)
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cweiske
it's 404 nontheless
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cweiske
HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found
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pauloppenheim
that's an artifact of implementation
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pauloppenheim
it could be 410 just as easily
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tantek
WP pages get moved then original URLs get re-used
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tantek
WP pages for one thing / person get used for another
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pauloppenheim
that's WP, I never advocated for that
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tantek
sometimes for disambig
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tantek
so no, WP URLs are crap for permalinks - sorry - and that was the case you were making
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pauloppenheim
wait, you mean wordpress, or wikipedia?
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tantek
wikipedia
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pauloppenheim
no, they remain meaningful, because they have history
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pauloppenheim
in the face of renames and deletes
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tantek
haha that's funny - clearly you haven't see what happens with moves and redirects and overwrites thereof
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tantek
Mediawiki is actually not great at that
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pauloppenheim
i'm confused, because i have, and that is exactly the reason i am advocating its usage
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tantek
once you've moved a page, and it leaves a redirect in place, if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost
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tantek
you can't find it
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tantek
it's gone
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pauloppenheim
old URL still works
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tantek
re-read the steps I said
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tantek
anyway, off to bed, if you think Mediawiki is a good solution for permalinks, then run it on your own domain!
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pauloppenheim
tantek: moving a page doesn't delete it
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pauloppenheim
the name remains claimed
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tantek
til then - your advocacy is more talk than real
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tantek
you're still not reading
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tantek
" if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost"
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pauloppenheim
i think the redirect strategy
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pauloppenheim
and mine's not done
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tantek
so yeah - that happens on WP all the time
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tantek
anyway, like I said, go for it, run Mediawiki on your own domain
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pauloppenheim
i'm interested in their redirect strategy, not their software
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pauloppenheim
i have run it, it makes me too frustrated otherwise
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tantek
then reimplement the bits you like
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tantek
to prove your point(s)
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pauloppenheim
it's just not there yet
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tantek
great, add it to the /projects page when you've got something to show
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tantek
until then, you're comparing vapor with shipping sites
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pauloppenheim
i think wikipedia is rather extant
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tantek
*personal* sites
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pauloppenheim
but regardless of cred or argument, it is a thing that i want
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tantek
already showed above how WP names fail
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tantek
"once you've moved a page, and it leaves a redirect in place, if that redirect is replaced with content, then POOF all previous history is lost"
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pauloppenheim
tantek: i'm not convinced you have
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tantek
have seen it happen
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pauloppenheim
for the page i have been referencing
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pauloppenheim
it just becomes another entry in the history
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pauloppenheim
i mean, hopefully the URL has meaning, and the new thing that goes there has the same meaning as the old thing
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pauloppenheim
but if not, the data is still there
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tantek
perhaps that page will be better gardened
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tantek
I've seen others (couple of years ago, not sure which now) that were not
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tantek
so yeah, if people have good behavior with change comments, that helps
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tantek
but that's a people thing, not a system thing
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pauloppenheim
regardless of behavior the data is there
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tantek
no the data is only there in the change comments, which are based on human behavior
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pauloppenheim
but yeah, not necessarily awesome, but possibly more human-valued than a raw date, but maybe not as much as a slug
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tantek
hence why I use both in my URLs
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pauloppenheim
but then it's not a permalink if you change it
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pauloppenheim
hence we've come full circle
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tantek
it is in the same way that random referrer query strings are irrelevant
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tantek
nothing says the entire URL has to be the "perma" part of the permalink
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tantek
you go build your system and we can compare.
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pauloppenheim
i guess people do modify URLs to find what they want...
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tantek
until then I think you're arguing about mostly a hypothetical way of maybe using some of mediawiki's mechanisms but reimplemented
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tantek
so - have no idea if anything you're suggesting will actually work as you claim
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pauloppenheim
well, i *could* use mediawiki, but i am not sure i want to live with it
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tantek
til you build and use it
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tantek
I wouldn't
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tantek
others have abandoned it (e.g. aaronpk)
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tantek
anyway, I am interested in the larger topic of indie wiki pages - and the design thereof. I've written a bit of code but mostly documented by brainstorming here if your'e curious. http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki-projects#Brainstorming
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pauloppenheim
mediawiki eats crackers in bed
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pauloppenheim
aha, more tantek brain dump to soak up, i like
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tantek
the design is by no means complete, but I'm fairly convinced of the line of thinking.
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tantek
might still run into obstacles while implementing, usual caveat
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pauloppenheim
that's half the fun
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tantek
figured I'd at least braindump the design so far rather than waiting for a sense of completeness/pefection
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pauloppenheim
we're on unexplored land
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tantek
anyway, see what you can get working minimally and quickly
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tantek
or feel free to park your design thoughts somewhere too and move on to something simpler and quicker. both are reasonable approaches.
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pauloppenheim
that's back-burner, next is simple indieauth
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tantek
as long as you get *something* done
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tantek
yeah - do you keep a list?
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pauloppenheim
it's slow, man
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pauloppenheim
not online
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pauloppenheim
it's in a text file
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tantek
e.g. on your http://indiewebcamp.com/ User: page?
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tantek
might help to keep you focused
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pauloppenheim
i want to get indieauth working so i can share things with friends :P
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pauloppenheim
privately, that is
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tantek
great - start with just that item then!
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tantek
(I mean a list with)
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pauloppenheim
yeah, that's fair
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tantek
woot!
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tantek.com
edited /events/2014-03-12-homebrew-website-club (-42) "/* Photos */ use uploaded photo"
(view diff)
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tantek
good night!
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Loqi
gute nacht!
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pauloppenheim
night tantek
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tantek.com
edited /Main_Page (-10) "/* Homebrew Website Club */ update photo, and date of next event. let's see if it gets created tomorrow ;)"
(view diff)
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@codeshaman
@davidmead Been reading about #indieweb, and it looks like just the thing for me. We should talk. I need perspective and tips.
(twitter.com/_/status/446966441674149889)
melvster, Sebastien-L, scor, LauraJ, jedahan, tantek, glennjones, fffuchs, chloeweil, squeakytoy and Guest9599 joined the channel
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@davewiner
If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://scripting.com/2014/03/21/theWebIsMadeOfInterop.html
(twitter.com/_/status/446998685411713024)
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@davewiner
@dsearls, please ask your friend @kevinmarks, to support RSS in his "IndieWeb" work. It's good for web independence and interop.
(twitter.com/_/status/446999178351509504)
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@davewiner
If you love RSS, @jeremyzilar, host of the next IndieWebCamp, it's part of what makes the web independent. It's not optional! :-)
(twitter.com/_/status/446999625585942528)
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@boringfileclerk
RT @davewiner: If you love RSS, @jeremyzilar, host of the next IndieWebCamp, it's part of what makes the web independent. It's not optional…
(twitter.com/_/status/446999740430159872)
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@davewiner
I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/446999842725040128)
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@FamilyCTO
RT @davewiner: If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://t.co…
(twitter.com/_/status/446999844553375746)
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@webtechman
RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/447000195092713472)
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@gravatt
RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/447000198024155137)
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@io_panic
RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/447001111510396928)
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@davewiner
@davidmead @t -- someone sent me a pointer to this page -- http://indiewebcamp.com/feed -- not much love there for RSS. ;-(
(twitter.com/_/status/447005844778270720)
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@davidmead
@davewiner Thanks. I'm diving back into #IndieWeb after some years away. Wasn't aware of a move from RSS. I'll have to read more. /cc @t
(twitter.com/_/status/447007751265202176)
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KartikPrabhu
looks like tantek just got invited to a twitter indieweb/RSS discussion
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@robverhoeven01
When will the SmartTV manufacturers become relevant again? #ownyourdata #owntheuserexperience
(twitter.com/_/status/447012713487937536)
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kylewm
I'd love to see an example of a "tombstone" for a deleted post, if anyone has one handy
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kylewm
nm, found via the wiki
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+558) "/* App Information */"
(view diff)
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+2) "/* App Information */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+878) "/* Examples */"
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: what is the tombstone example?
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KartikPrabhu
or where on the wiki?
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KartikPrabhu
nvm found it too :P
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KevinMarks
Irony of Dave doing this on twitter, where he blocks me is amusing.
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kylewm
It would appear that werd.io actually returns 410 for any URL miss http://werd.io/2014/nothing-here not just posts that have been deleted.
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kylewm
Is it worth actually tracking deleted post to differentiate between "never here" and "not here anymore"?
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: shouldn't "never here" be a 404 and "not here anymore" be a 410?
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kylewm
KartikPrabhu, that's what I'm wondering. It looks like idno returns 410 for both cases
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: yeah you are right. At first I thought the pages might be the same but different status codes, but no they are both 410
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KartikPrabhu
!tell benwerd: any reason idno seems to return a 410 status code even if the page never existed, instead of 404?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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bnvk
!tell aaronpk how often does the wiki kill my session login?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+629) "/* Advantages */"
(view diff)
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Loqi
aaronpk: bnvk left you a message 7 minutes ago: how often does the wiki kill my session login?
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bnvk
oh, hehe, hi
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aaronpk
bnvk: I tried to set the cookie length to like 60 days, but that might only take effect after the next time you log in
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aaronpk
it seems to not be killing my session frequently the last couple days
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bnvk
awesome, yah, it killed my session while I ate lunch and lost something I was typing :)
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aaronpk
yeah i'm still logged in this morning after not touching the site since like 18 hours ago
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aaronpk
ah yeah, I never trust web forms to actually keep what i'm writing over a long period of time in general
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aaronpk
either short edits committing often, or I write in a local text file
#
@gRegorLove
@girlvsplanet It's a nice-looking, easy to use article engine. Except you don't get to own your data. #indieweb @Medium
(twitter.com/_/status/447047276720947200)
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bnvk
usually I do as well, but this was only 2 sentences
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aaronpk
whoa @davewiner went on a twitter rampage this morning
#
aaronpk
KevinMarks: did he really block you on twitter?
#
KartikPrabhu
oh man! he still thinks there is a "indiewebcamp war on RSS"!
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: kylewm: also see: http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: yes that would be one reason for the whole deleted/never here discussion
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aaronpk
ah cool just wanted to make sure you saw that page :)
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: how is your war on RSS going?
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (-4) "/* App Stores */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (-4) "/* App Developers */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+4) "/* Developers */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+4) "/* Stores */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+420) "/* Updating of App Configs */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+60) "/* App Information */"
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cweiske.de
edited /store (+100) "/* App Information */ link DOAP"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+404) "/* Store Development Stages */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+1) "/* Projects */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (-3) "/* Platforms */"
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brennannovak.com
edited /store (+3) "/* Platforms */"
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snarfed
glad to see we're working on the store page
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snarfed
i've always said that's the key thing indieweb is missing
#
snarfed
monetization!!!
#
snarfed
(kidding)
#
bnvk
hehe, you joke, yet I have plans... mwuhahahaha
#
Loqi
hehe
#
bnvk
well, actually, it would work really nice with this idea floating around the crypto currency communities called DAO (distributed autonomous organization), imagine auto payments getting handled via a blockchain upon install of something
#
kylewm
snarfed: is it possible to use activitystreams-unofficial as a library, without google app engine?
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snarfed
kylewm: it's encouraged!
#
snarfed
oh, w/o app engine
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snarfed
it *should* be usable w/o app engine…but may be rough
#
snarfed
i definitely want it to work though, so i'm happy to help
#
kylewm
actually all I want to do is test parsing https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576 to see if it finds the permashort citation
#
@kyle_wm
Facebook warning me about following a t.co link to NYT! #siloproblems (kyl.im n4VA1) https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/446818317408280576)
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snarfed
it may be as easy as pulling out the appengine imports and cleaning up any dangling usages, which should be minor
#
snarfed
i haven't updated it in a while though. i'll do that now.
#
@andrewshell
RT @davewiner: If you love interop, ask the "IndieWeb" guys, @tantek, to accept RSS. It's here, now, let's make it work better. http://t.co…
(twitter.com/_/status/447057872095285248)
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snarfed
bnvk: interesting! DAO sounds like "direct democracy" or "participatory economics"
#
aaronpk
is not interested in blockchain-based currencies. wake me up when there is something different.
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snarfed
currency is the kind of thing where i want to be a very, very, very *late* adopter. not an early adopter.
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aaronpk
has actually used a real "indie" currency daily for the past 8 years
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bnvk
snarfed: yah, sounds about right
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aaronpk
i say "real" because I am able to get use out of it and none of you have to even know it exists
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snarfed
aaronpk: …begs the question...
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aaronpk
you don't even have to believe in it
#
bnvk
aaronpk: what is your particular qualm with blockchain based technology as a whole?
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snarfed
grabs popcorn
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bnvk
aaronpk: I figured you just didn't like the runaway money hungry investor bitcoin mentality, not blockchains as a whole
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gRegor`
Haha
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bnvk
so it's just that aspect, gotcha
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kylewm
snarfed, ok I didn't need to test at all, just look closer at the regex, oops
#
aaronpk
doesn't really want to get into it. it's a relatively unpopular opinion these days, and I have something that works for me, so meh
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snarfed
kylewm: aha, good
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snarfed
updates twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com anyway
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snarfed
kylewm: happy to accept PRs if the regex needs improving
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kylewm
it expects (sensibly) the citation to be at the end of the source .. but when you include media in a tweet it sticks a pic.twitter.com link at the end
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snarfed
ahh right
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gRegor`
Is the indie currency you speak of, "USD", aaronpk? :)
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aaronpk
gRegor`: no, it's trading coffee debt
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snarfed
i originally accepted permashortcitations anywhere, but there were too many false positives
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bnvk
aaronpk: fair, I wasn't wanting to rile you up, was just curious as I remember how interested you were in making your own currency / methods of exchanging money
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gRegor`
Ooh. Nice, aaronpk. :)
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aaronpk
basically a shared ledger with a small group
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gRegor`
I like the idea of coffeecoin.
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snarfed
kylewm: just fyi, PSCs never got much adoption, and it's not clear that they will
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bnvk
gRegor`: wait, did you see my blog post?
#
aaronpk
which is only vaguely a currency, but then bitcoin is also just a shared ledger with a much larger group
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gRegor`
bnvk: Nope. Link?
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snarfed
permashortlinks may have a bit more potential, e.g. (kyl.im/n/123) as opposed to (kyl.im n/123)
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bnvk
oh, ref: aaronpk mention of coffee, hehe
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gRegor`
Oh, I thought maybe you'd written a post about "coffeecoin"
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kylewm
snarfed, interesting, yes that makes sense. trade people asking "what are those cryptic codes at the end of yoru tweets" for "why do you always link to stuff at the end of your tweets"?
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kylewm
snarfed, thanks for the food for thought (and I still want to play with activitystreams, but GAE was giving me fits this morning so I gave up)
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bnvk
gRegor`: but this is what I mean http://bnvk.me/61E
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bnvk
just a scribble really
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snarfed
kylewm: yeah. i still don't think we've found a way to do original post links in twitter that other twitter users are ok with
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gRegor`
PSC? Perma short code?
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snarfed
np kylewm! feel free to ping me on gae problems too, i'm pretty familiar with it. :P happy to help
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snarfed
gRegor`: permashortcitation
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snarfed
i wouldn't encourage using them, but that's just my opinion
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gRegor`
Ah
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gRegor`
Yeah, it doesn't seem likely we'll ever need to prove our indieweb post is the original post, right?
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snarfed
oh no, they're not really for "proof" as much as just linking back without implying that there's more content in the original post when there actually isn't
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gRegor`
And original post discovery, right?
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gRegor`
It would be nice if Twitter supported it as metadata
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snarfed
definitely!
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kylewm
I looked through the API quite a bit, was hopeful that they'd let me sneak something into "entities" but no dice :)
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kylewm
what if you had a webmention-like endpoint for syndication-reverse-lookup?
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kylewm
i guess it would add yet another step to original-post-discovery... need to give it some more thought
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aaronpk
ha interesting
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aaronpk
but you'd have to know the domain to go look at before you could do that
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: Any reason base60 uses 'underscore' instead of 'hyphen' ?
#
KartikPrabhu
or any reason switching to hyphen would be bad?
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snarfed
aaronpk, kylewm: true. easy to use the web site in the profile, though, rel-me/indieauth style
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snarfed
bridgy already now pulls and uses that when it's available. needed it for publish.
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aaronpk
that seems highly silo-specific
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aaronpk
like how do you get to the profile given a permalink to a tweet?
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tantek
whoa lots to catch up on
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tantek
KartikPrabhu that thing about identifiers
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tantek
pretty sure choice of symbols is already covered in tantek.com/w/NewBase60
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tantek
scrolls up
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snarfed1
btw, little-known feature: you can use twitter-activitystreams.appspot.com (and facebook-activitystreams.appspot.com, etc) to convert any silo post to mf2, either html or json
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tantek
KartikPrabhu: what war on RSS? the Atom/RSS war? That's over. They both lost.
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snarfed1
both web ui and api available. just authenticate and then set the format drop-down to json-mf2 or html
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KartikPrabhu
tantek: no i realise I can't use both "human readbility" but I could replace underscore with hyphen? I was referring to a Dave Winer tweet :P
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aaronpk
tantek: actually it looks like hyphen appears first in the list of "HTML ID and NAME tokens", and the derivation section fails to mention why underscore over hyphen
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tantek
Kylewm - you should add that photo and commentary to the /Facebook page https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576
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@kyle_wm
Facebook warning me about following a t.co link to NYT! #siloproblems (kyl.im n4VA1) https://twitter.com/kyle_wm/status/446818317408280576/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/446818317408280576)
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kylewm
tantek, I was going to but later realized it was doing it for every outgoing link
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tantek
kylewm - that's still a bad UX
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tantek
that's the point, not the NYT part
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kylewm
OK, just at first I thought it was explicitly marking t.co (twitter) links
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kylewm
inter-silo malice
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kylewm
(like how instagram photos don't show up in twitter streams)
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aaronpk
that was instagram's choice tho, not twitter's
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tantek
aaronpk - BS - they're both at fault
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tantek
Twitter is insisting on others' adopting their proprietary TwitterCards metacrap
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tantek
Instagram just said no to that, which is perfectly reasonable
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aaronpk
yeah, just pointing out that it wasn't like twitter was directly attacking instagram on that
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gRegor`
Hm, I always assumed it was Twitter since instagram links worked one day but not the next
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tantek
Instagram experiment with Twitter Cards and then dropped them. I don't blame them.
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aaronpk
instagram just removed the proprietary twitter card markup
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gRegor`
I thought it was exactly that, since they launched their own pic service
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gRegor`
Ah
#
@ShaneHudson
I think #indieweb might like this slide #edgeconf. Removing data from monopolies https://twitter.com/ShaneHudson/status/447066612558860288/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/447066612558860288)
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KevinMarks
After twitter revoked instagram friend lookup on twitter, iirc
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tantek
BTW - I was able to get instagram to adopt rel=me - so if there's more standard markup we want them to add - we can do so too
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tantek
KevinMarks - yup - love those bizdev mindsets
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tantek
(not)
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tantek
ShaneHudson - how does that slide support anything indie*web*?
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KevinMarks
The really stupid one was twitter revoking Google's firehose access. Now they're wondering why growth is falling off with tweets hard to find
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tantek
hey bnvk what "sounds sensible" to you?
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tantek
!tell bnvk what "sounds sensible" to you?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek
KevinMarks - growth falling off? citation?
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Loqi
benwerd: KartikPrabhu left you a message 1 hour, 48 minutes ago: any reason idno seems to return a 410 status code even if the page never existed, instead of 404?
#
@nobantu
LastDay4 #IIW EarlyBirdRegistration : http://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-xviii-18-2014a-tickets-10266396067?aff=eorg May 6 - 8 #PersonalData #VRM #indieweb #personalclouds #privacy #unConference
(twitter.com/_/status/447068657877655553)
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KartikPrabhu
The SEO folks seem to be selling microdata and RDFa really hard
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benwerd
(The SEO reply to @EvilTantek is the best thing I've seen this week)
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snarfed1
KartikPrabhu: as tantek would say, "step back slowly"
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snarfed1
hey benwerd! long time no see
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benwerd
howdy!
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snarfed1
glad austin didn't kill you :P
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KevinMarks
This has led to reports of twitter abolishing @ and #, though Vivian schiller denied that
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tantek
SEO folks enjoy jumping through Google's hoops no matter how high
#
benwerd
snarfed1: I literally had to have an FBI background check while I was there. Rigorous.
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tantek
Google's good at making them SEO folks do tricks.
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snarfed1
ugh snarfed1. brb.
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tantek
KevinMarks - people misinterpreting things on Twitter? I'm shocked. ;)
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tantek
hiding the "@username " at the start of replies makes sense in a threaded display context.
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KevinMarks
Though it may get odd with multiple replied to people
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KevinMarks
Tantek if instagram has rel me, would it work for indieauth?
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Loqi
bnvk: tantek left you a message 15 minutes ago: what "sounds sensible" to you?
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aaronpk
bnvk: what happened to your rss feed? there's no content in it https://brennannovak.com/feed
#
bnvk
ooo, not sure, shoot
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KartikPrabhu
stop hating on RSS you guys
#
bnvk
tantek: where did I say "sounds sensible" ?
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bnvk
damn it, my RSS was working
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KevinMarks
We don't hate rss, we just feel it should retire gracefully
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gRegor`
Hahaha to @eviltantek and @silowebcamp
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snarfed
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 8 karma
#
KartikPrabhu
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 9 karma
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benwerd
KevinMarks++
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Loqi
KevinMarks has 10 karma
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snarfed
man. rss/atom opinions are such a great example of how even in a community this small, there are vocal minorities and silent majorities
#
snarfed
gotta love human nature
#
gRegor`
"I think it [the wah wah peddle] had its moment a long time ago. Kinda like Netscape or something." - Moby
#
gRegor`
I don't really get the anti-RSS sentiment.
#
@blaine
@davewiner @marcusnelson @ralphm we sure tried. I sure tried. A lot. For years. Until I gave up because, well, egos. Fuck egos.
(twitter.com/_/status/447053221786562560)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - it's not hate, it's more sadness & disappointment.
#
tantek
hahaha - what?
#
snarfed
gRegor`: i think i do. plain html wasn't enough on its own, but with microformats, feed readers have all the info they need from a blog's html itself. they shouldn't need a separate feed file.
#
KartikPrabhu
I was of course being snarky/sarcastic about the "hate RSS" thing
#
gRegor`
Oh, I know, KartikPrabhu :)
#
snarfed
…which i agree with…but i think we've overstated our case, and people have interpreted it as "we hate rss/atom," as opposed to, "we think mf2 is a good successor"
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - yeah, it's just a sad situation though.
#
tantek
snarfed - nope, not "people have interpreted" - just a strawman
#
snarfed
tantek: do you agree with that summary? you probably feel the strongest, so i'm curious if i have it right.
#
bnvk
I wonder if it was more that the virality and people centric (avatars, names, etc... that jack into our big social brains) inherent to social media, yet devoid of RSS, that really killed it, not all this speculation
#
snarfed
eh maybe. the language on /feed is (or maybe was) probably stronger than most of us would agree with
#
tantek
snarfed - nah, the real tragedy is the time wasted on the RSS/Atom wars.
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tantek
so we just ignore them
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tantek
bnvk - bingo - RSS was/is being abandoned. We just documented it.
#
tantek
don't blame the messenger
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gRegor`
Oh, so this is the "RSS is dead" argument?
#
gRegor`
Meh
#
tantek
gregor - yeah exactly
#
gRegor`
A whole lotta sites out there have RSS feeds, for them being so dead.
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tantek
gregor - fewer and fewer
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tantek
that's the point, hence *dying*
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gRegor`
Examples?
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KartikPrabhu
Yes, but how many people consume them?
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tantek
gregor - /feed
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gRegor`
KartikPrabhu: Far more than consume mf2
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tantek
like I said, we're just documenting the demise of RSS, not causing it
#
gRegor`
I'm all for improving (mf2 feeds), but I think the "RSS is dead" is silly
#
tantek
bnvk - you're own RSS feed dying proves the point
#
tantek
not worth the maintenance tax
#
tantek
your* own
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bnvk
that just broke, I fixed it a few months ago, but yah... the fact that it was just brought to my attention
#
bnvk
validates your point
#
KartikPrabhu
oh no one is claiming that mf2 is the bestest. but it does some of the issues with RSS
#
bnvk
sigh
#
gRegor`
I didn't think "we" (or anyone) are causing it. I just have seen articles for years about RSS dying, yet it's still here (and haven't seen much evidence of it dying).
#
KartikPrabhu
solve some
#
tantek
bnvk - oh it broke before?
#
tantek
how long did it take for someone, *anyone* to mention it?
#
tantek
how long was it broken?
#
bnvk
not sure
#
tantek
doesn't that seem to indicate no one is actually consuming it or cares?
#
bnvk
I believe snarfed pointed it out
#
tantek
so all this "people consuming RSS" rumors are basically overplayed
#
gRegor`
I set up my RSS feed years ago and it's been working fine. *shrug*
#
tantek
gregor - you're an exception
#
tantek
so good for you
#
tantek
similarly I setup my Atom feed years ago and it's been (mostly) working
#
tantek
(only real problem was excess bandwidth)
#
tantek
so someone/something polls it a lot, but who knows who actually cares?
#
bnvk
yes, but it's an interesting flaw perhaps in feed readers that they didn't make the "report broken feed" to owner an easy users project
#
bnvk
process
#
gRegor`
Similarly, every WordPress install has a feed that works out of the box, sans messing it up manually or with a plugin. (latter is hypothetical, I've not seen it personally)
#
gRegor`
I agree on the DRY point, of course
#
KevinMarks
Also that your xhtml embedding blows up feed readers that assume crappy escaping
#
tantek
bnvk - that's what you see as "an interesting flaw … in feed readers" ?!?!?
#
tantek
not the lack of integration with posting tools etc.?
#
bnvk
tantek: you're saying user feedback should be on the onus of the platform doing the publishing detecting the post is broken?
#
bnvk
errr *feed* is broken
#
tantek
bnvk - I'm saying you're lost in the weeds of a 2000-era mindset. "feeds" "syndication" etc.
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snarfed
i kinda feel like we're agreeing violently, and the only argument is over degree
#
snarfed
saying *no one* consumes rss/atom is an overstatement, but we'd probably all agree that *fewer and fewer people* consume it
#
tantek
if you're focusing on such problems
#
tantek
snarfed - right
#
snarfed
and "fewer and fewer" still means we should migrate to mf2, etc
#
tantek
the only way to "win" the RSS/Atom war is not to play
#
tantek
hence not worth engaging on this nonsense on Twitter
#
tantek
where the few folks advocating RSS do so, by posting content somewhere WITHOUT an RSS feed.
#
snarfed
right. and those of us who still use and love our feed readers can keep using them, right now, while we work toward replacing rss/atom
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tantek
snarfed - I have no imminent plans to turn off my Atom feed for example.
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snarfed
glad to hear it! since i still happily consume it :P
#
KevinMarks
Reading the issues and tests for universal feed parser is a useful corrective to thinking rss works
#
snarfed
but yeah. anyway. we should find some other big piece of indieweb news to try to distract people :P
#
tantek
snarfed, true!
#
snarfed
quick, someone ddos twitter!
#
snarfed
(kidding. kidding. don't. nsa, i'm a good guy, i swear.)
#
bnvk
tantek: I don't think i'm lost or stuck in a 2000-era mindset, thank you ;)
#
tantek
… says the guy working on EMAIL
#
KevinMarks
I just discovered that Google now can listen to the TV and tell me what is on.
#
tantek
yeah, I was off by a couple of decades. ;)
#
tantek
KevinMarks - like Shazam for TV shows?
#
KevinMarks
Yes, though apparently only live ones, not DVRd
#
tantek
snarfed, Bridgy really helped a lot of people "get" POSSE / backfee
#
bnvk
I realize that, yes, I'm working on an app built on a protocol with a 2.5 billion person adoption ;)
#
tantek
s/backfee/backfeed
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: snarfed, Bridgy really helped a lot of people "get" POSSE / backfeed
#
snarfed
tantek: that's great! i'm glad to hear it
#
tantek
similarly, integrated reading/writing UIs will help another set of folks "get" it
#
snarfed
man, i hope!
#
tantek
in terms of why an indieweb site matters, much more than separate feeds/readers
#
bnvk
with that said, I'm gonna give it the ole college try for another year or two, if email is still as dismal I'll agree with ya full :)
#
tantek
bnvk - given how distributed/federated email is, I want to believe it is "just" a UX problem - but it's not. comes back to the difficulty of hacking your own email server etc.
#
bnvk
like I said, give it a year or two ;)
#
tantek
but yeah, if you can solve that problem, you will have achieved something incredible.
#
tantek
totally. not going to underestimate you. :)
#
tantek
(to be clear, I *am* rooting for you to succeed)
#
bnvk
I know, I think :)
#
aaronpk
related to integrated read/write UIs... I had really good luck so far writing a microformats2 adapter into the selfoss reader
#
aaronpk
the next step of course is to put the "write" UI into it using micropub
#
aaronpk
selfoss seems to be the farthest along reader that I could do that with, so I'm tempted to find/make some time for that and dive into it
#
snarfed
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 400 karma
#
aaronpk
I don't really want to write a whole new reader from scratch
#
bnvk
Selfoss is a dreary lil town outside of Reykajvik with a river running through, and terrible restaurants!
#
KevinMarks
I need to unfuck noterlive.com and get back on the micropub coding
#
tantek
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 401 karma
#
bnvk
aaronpk: is that committed here https://github.com/aaronpk/selfoss ?
#
bnvk
aaronpk++
#
Loqi
aaronpk has 402 karma
#
aaronpk
that's my fork, I haven't submitted a PR yet cause it's still kind of messsy
#
aaronpk
hey! what
#
bnvk
for anyone else? or do the gods hate me
#
gRegor`
502 here
#
snarfed
KevinMarks++ for unfucking
#
gRegor`
Bad Gateway! Go stand in the corner and think about what you've done.
#
snarfed
(…anything really)
#
snarfed
gRegor`: lol
#
aaronpk
working on it
#
aaronpk
not sure what happened, php-fpm stopped responding
#
bnvk
cool
#
KevinMarks
I love that the whole of Turkey is discovering dns and VPN tools
#
benwerd
Did you see that 8.8.8.8 graffiti? Amazing.
#
@enginonder
#twitter blocked in #turkey tonight. folks are painting #google dns numbers onto the posters of the governing party. https://twitter.com/enginonder/status/446819815106576384/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/446819815106576384)
#
benwerd
A little odd that it's Google's DNS that's being promoted, mind you.
#
benwerd
Btw, anyone encountered Twister? It's (I'm not joking here) an encrypted decentralized Twitter partially based on the Bitcoin protocol
#
tantek
benwerd, this is how it starts. govts screw up so badly that people being trusting and advocating multinationals instead.
#
tantek
multinationals aren't going to take over, they're going to be handed authority by the people
#
tantek
cue all scifi dystopia scenarios where multinationals run things and natl govts are odd little leftovers.
#
KevinMarks
I heard about it. Bitcoin as pki, bittorrent as distribution?
#
benwerd
tantek: Which isn't a million miles away from the situation we currently enjoy, unfortunately, particularly behind the scenes. Completely agree.
#
KevinMarks
Eric shmidt explicitly stated that, Tantek
#
benwerd
KevinMarks: Right. Couldn't install it, because of really onerous dependencies. But interesting.
#
tantek
benwerd agreed, point is, this is how it transitions to being in front of the scenes.
#
benwerd
Agree again.
#
gRegor`
Speaking of things built on cryptocurrencies, .bit is an odd little DNS based on namecoin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.bit
#
tantek
KevinMarks, from that medium post, the last image has a poster on a metal wall that says: DNS NASIL DEĞİŞTİRİLİR? which translates to: "How to change DNS?"
#
tantek
and note the subheadings: ANDROID and PC/FIREFOX :)
#
tantek
amazing.
#
KevinMarks
That turkey's twitter traffic went up...
#
tantek
that image is so gibsonian I just don't even
#
tantek
(as in William)
#
benwerd
I'd love to know who's printing & distributing the posters
#
tantek
I want a copy of that poster
#
tantek
seriously
#
Loqi
gives tantek a copy of that poster
#
tantek
thanks Loqi ;)
#
Loqi
you're welcome
#
tantek
Nevermind people "not understanding URLs", people are being taught about DNS!
#
KevinMarks
And VPN too
#
tantek
so can the people adapt faster than the authorities can shutdown/intercept the adaptations?
#
tantek
this will be interesting to watch
#
@kevinmarks
“the Extraordinary comes from the Extra Ordinary. So: you are an artist. You always have been.” http://sxsw.com/music-film/news/2014/jarvis-cocker-watches-hackers-writes-sxsw-huffpo #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/447087862681305088)
#
tantek
KevinMarks - I didn't get it - what was the point of that speech?
#
KevinMarks
Jarvis Cocker may be a bit of an acquired taste. I am a big fan of his work, which is oblique and pop and eclectic at the same time. His point about "get on with it" felt indieweb to me
#
KevinMarks
Hmm that liberation link gave me a JS popup claiming I have viruses on my Android. Shady.
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benwerd
oh ffs. invited to a private, highly sensitive lung transplant discussion group, with serious data implications.
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benwerd
it's on facebook.
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kylewm
snarfed, my site seems to have made a mess of my reply to your reply
#
aaronpk
bret: do you have access to a laser cutter?
#
gRegor`
That huffpost link a bit ago reminded me how much I dislike loading their bloated pages, so I just set up an instapaper bookmarklet: http://pastebin.com/01fgqFFL
chloeweil and paulcp joined the channel
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kylewm
huh, so is class="p-in-reply-to h-cite" the right way to markup a reply context? and if so, what happens if there is a class="u-url" somewhere in the content of the comment? e.g., http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1 snarfed's comment has a u-in-reply-to inside it
_skinny, paulcp, JasonO, eschnou and caseorganic joined the channel
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KartikPrabhu
kylewm: afaik reply-context markup goes "u-in-reply-to h-cite" then if the h-cite has any "u-url" then that is the url of the reply-context. If it has another "u-in-reply-to" then that is scoped to the h-cite itself
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kylewm
thanks KartikPrabhu, So https://indiewebcamp.com/in-reply-to says p-in-reply-to is OK when you want to have more info than just the url ... but then I'm not sure what to do if there is more than one u-url inside there.
#
kylewm
it might be ok... maybe the worst that can happen is a duplicate u-url to the source comment that
#
KartikPrabhu
should't things have onyl one u-url anyway?
#
kylewm
but I'm just including the e-content object from the other person's comment
#
kylewm
(which is probably not brilliant/safe)
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah I still have to do proper reply contexts. Maybe i'll run into these issues then
#
kylewm
in the meantime if you want to reply to me and stick malicious <script> tags in the comment body, you are welcome to ;)
#
snarfed
kylewm: back now. any conclusion on your reply mf2 q's? need anything from me?
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tantek
catches up on logs.
#
tantek
ooh reply questions
#
tantek
this is good stuff
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snarfed
i'm jealous
#
kylewm
snarfed, I changed my markup a little bit and it updated and looked better. and thanks!
#
tantek
interesting. is that a multireply or a thread?
#
kylewm
multi-reply
#
tantek
sweet
#
kylewm
thanks :) i hope to do threading eventually
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KartikPrabhu1
so multireply is one reply after another, where as thread is many replies to the same thing?
#
tantek
is updating the multireply page right now as we speak for exactly this reason (that there's such a question)
#
KartikPrabhu
you're goddamn right!
#
KartikPrabhu
:D been meaning to do that somewhere for quite some time
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tantek.com
edited /multiple-reply (+590) "dfn, resort headers, indieweb examples, silo limitations, brainstorming"
(view diff)
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - does this help answer your question? http://indiewebcamp.com/multiple-reply
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: I seeI had it the other way round... interesting
#
KartikPrabhu
love how idieweb implementations are going beyond just immitating silos
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: Twitter's display of a chain of replies and/or many replies to the same thing are so similar that it's hard to tell just by looking
#
tantek
so no surprise there's confusion
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - indeed! going beyond what silos do is one of the huge benefits of having and creating your own IndieWeb site!
#
tantek
snarfed, earlier re: permashortcitations vs. permashortlinks, I tend to agree with you
#
tantek
as our "original posts" becomes more and more useful than any silo POSSE copy, it will make more and more sense to just use permashortlinks in POSSE copies - since users clicking on those will see more information (e.g. more indieweb/cross-site comments / likes)
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snarfed
probably yeah
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tantek
snarfed, do you think it would be helpful to describe permashortcitations as a transitional approach?
#
tantek
I'm trying to figure out a way of capturing some of the consensus coming out of the discussions here.
#
snarfed
tantek: maybe! transitional…to what?
#
tantek
transitional to permashortlinks
#
tantek
everywhere
#
snarfed
or at least, to original post links, which may be permashortlinks (but don't have to be) …?
#
tantek
to perma(short)links :)
#
snarfed
sure, i agree
#
snarfed
i might describe PSCs as a worthwhile experiment which didn't catch on
#
snarfed
since we were doing original post links and PSLs before them
#
snarfed
and also after them
#
tantek
you don't see any value even in the case where the original provides apparent end user benefit over the silo copy?
#
tantek
the "I clicked on a link and saw nothing new" problem
#
snarfed
sorry, trying to parse. i don't see any value in…PSLs over normal permalinks?
#
tantek
PSCs over P(S)Ls
#
tantek
in the case where the original has nothing substantial beyond the POSSE copy
#
snarfed
oh. i agree that was the initial motivation, but in practice, i think we heard that PSCs annoyed people just as much as PSLs
#
snarfed
PSLs were annoying when there was no add'l value
#
snarfed
PSCs were annoying because ppl didn't understand them
#
tantek
interesting, I heard much *less* annoyance
#
tantek
non-zero, but definitely less
#
tantek
have you not found any other PSCs via Bridgy?
#
snarfed
eh. we may be overthinking it. there's definitely been usage of all three, but maybe not enough to conclude anything clear yet. that's fine.
#
snarfed
good question! honestly i don't know. hard to data mine for, but i could try.
#
snarfed
personally i only remember seeing PSCs from you, andy sylvester, and kyle
#
tantek.com
edited /silo-quits (+561) "Dadepo Aderemi quits facebook"
(view diff)
#
tantek
snarfed - do you have twitter accounts for sylvester and kyle?
#
tantek
kylewm, KartikPrabhu, were the "p-in-reply-to h-cite" questions answered?
#
tantek
(can't quite tell from the logs)
#
snarfed
tantek: yeah, AndySylvester99 and kylewm
#
snarfed
i'm wrong, i don't see a psc from andy
#
KartikPrabhu
tantek: somehow kylewm seemed to have multiple url props for his reply, which shouldn't happen really I think
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - at which page (URL) ?
#
tantek
wants to compare presentation meaning vs. markup
#
KartikPrabhu
repost: ylewm: huh, so is class="p-in-reply-to h-cite" the right way to markup a reply context? and if so, what happens if there is a class="u-url" somewhere in the content of the comment? e.g., http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1 snarfed's comment has a u-in-reply-to inside it
#
tantek
yes to first question
#
tantek
is looking at the markup
#
KartikPrabhu
i think I have been using u-in-reply-to but that shouldn't be a diff
#
tantek
either should be ok
#
tantek
u-in-reply-to works if all you have is a URL
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu: so the question you ask re: u-url has a literal answer and I think an actual answer
#
tantek
literal answer - there is no u-url inside the content of the comment from snarfed
#
tantek
actual answer - if you're going to copy the e-content from someone's comment post to your own site, you need to be careful of all sorts of things people can do (un)intentionally in their markup that could screw up (visitors to) your site.
#
tantek
imagine if he'd put a <script> element inside his e-content - would you happily include that in your reply-context?!?
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah that would be a disaster indeed
#
tantek
in fact that might make for a good indiewebify webmention receiving test
#
aaronpk
<script>alert('you coulda been hacked')</script>
#
KartikPrabhu
i think mf2 parsers are supposed to filter those in the value property, but for the html proerpty i think the site author should filter appropriately
#
snarfed
tantek: in the scrollback, kylewm jokingly invited people to do exactly that (send <script>s to him in webmention e-contents)
#
tantek
have indiewebify send you a webmention comment that includes a <div class="e-content"><script>alert("Your server should filter e-content before reserving it")</script></div>
#
tantek
KartikPrabhu - so that's the larger problem with http://kylewm.com/reply/2014/03/21/1
#
snarfed
aaronpk and i and others have discussed this before. obviously you want to sanitize, but there's also clear value in including *some* tags. links, images, etc
#
tantek
it doesn't appear to be sanitizing the e-content from snarfed's site
#
aaronpk
snarfed: I disagree, I would rather re-link everything myself
#
tantek
including looking out for any naked uf2 properties
#
snarfed
no, i didn't mean to imply kylewm is sanitizing,.
#
snarfed
just that it's a good idea in general.
#
KartikPrabhu
yeah i think kylewm does not do that yet
#
snarfed
aaronpk: sure, that works too. but it's more than just links. imgs, <code>s, etc
#
snarfed
an easy first implementation is just a simple tag whitelist
#
aaronpk
I want to accept only a plaintext note, and if you have a bunch of formatting in it then it's probably an article and i'm just going to link to it with the article name anyway
#
tantek
I feel like we've documented discussion of this before
#
tantek
sanitization approaches/neeeds
#
aaronpk
probably in the reply page
#
aaronpk
or commnts
#
KevinMarks_
like google's sanitizing image proxy?
#
snarfed
aaronpk: eh i dunno. i definitely see value in some formatting in comments, mainly styles, links, and imgs
#
snarfed
hell, people use them often in comments in silos. pictures and links in twitter/fb replies, bold/italics etc in g+ comments
#
aaronpk
links can be re-linked, I don't really want someone to put an image in my comment thread, the only one that reall can't be reconstructed is <code>
#
gRegor`
I see value in some formatting, too, but sanitizing HTML is a nightmare
#
snarfed
sure. and to be clear, everyone gets to make their own call. but i know i'd allow imgs in comments on my site, and i'm not alone
#
KevinMarks_
you need to whitelist
#
tantek
y'all need to document your existing approaches/implementations
benwerd joined the channel
#
snarfed
tantek: agreed!
#
tantek
a bit too much "you need to" handwaving, KevinMarks :P
#
snarfed
KevinMarks: agreed. for those of us who want to allow some tags, i'd suggest we look at existing comment tag whitelists like wordpress's.
#
snarfed
takes a todo to find it and copy it to the wiki
#
KevinMarks_
that link is a very good resource
#
aaronpk
snarfed: wait til you get a reply from me that contains a 10x2000 px vertical image :)
#
tantek
KevinMarks, depends on what you want to have happen on your site!
#
snarfed
aaronpk: heh. that's the beauty of hand moderation. everything has edge cases, but that doesn't mean you ditch the common case
#
tantek
aaronpk - lol
#
gRegor`
Agree on whitelisting, but even if you just allow <img> I think you can insert javascript that way. I thought I saw that, at least.
#
gRegor`
Granted, my approach is that webmentions won't be displayed until I approve them, or if I whitelist the domain they're coming from (trusted parties)
#
tantek
sigh, all I said on http://indiewebcamp.com/comments-presentation is "e-content … use that, after filtering out unsafe HTML"
#
tantek
that's pretty insufficient
#
tantek
ok creating a sanitize page
#
tantek
unless someone has a better / more findable naming suggestion
#
KevinMarks_
the most insanely thorough sanitizer is caja https://code.google.com/p/google-caja/
#
tantek
to what end?
#
tantek
there's user experience trade-offs that none of those documents mention
#
tantek
I could even see variable sanitizing based on WHO the comment is coming from
#
tantek
e.g. maybe I allow images from trusted friends
#
tantek
and only plaintext from random commenters
#
tantek
this "one sanitizing approach fits all" approach is really shortsighted
#
tantek
rather, plumbing-focused instead of UX-focused
#
KevinMarks_
my point in posting those two links are that this is a deep hole to explore
#
tantek
which of course is expected from the domains those links are at
#
aaronpk
berlol
#
aaronpk
this is what happens when your ssh session to your IRC terminal is laggy
#
tantek
oh dear
#
benwerd
pioneers where he can
#
tantek
aaronpk, you weren't blarging at the Secret PESOS?
#
aaronpk
i was blarging at my "berlol"
#
aaronpk
which was supposed to be "benwerd lol"
KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
tantek
or you could POSSE to Secret by putting the permalink into a QRcode as the bg image
#
aaronpk
haha oh no
#
benwerd
it's friday afternoon and I was fixing databases until 3am. this is all I got.
#
snarfed
hell, also s/Secret/Instagram/
#
gRegor`
I was wrong. The exploit I was thinking of requires an iframe, but the payload is obfuscated in a PNG: http://blog.sucuri.net/2014/02/new-iframe-injections-leverage-png-image-metadata.html
#
tantek
anyone reverse-engineered the Secret permalink ID format? e.g. wcoubyckjckgvstnwkkrcmrbbr
#
tantek
1. reverse engineer that
#
gRegor`
So shouldn't be an issue, presuming you don't display an iframe when showing comments from other sites. :)
#
tantek
2. iterate through all previous Secrets
#
tantek
3. publish to notsosecret.tumblr.com
#
tantek
or just ping the internet archive with all secret permalinks
#
KevinMarks_
Didn't Brad Fitzpatrick make his FB profile picture a QR code of his own domain?
#
gRegor`
To identify users, tantek?
#
tantek
gRegor - nah, just to get a raw dump of everything
#
tantek
you know, for the archives
#
tantek
KevinMarks - yeah that was his rel-me hack back in the day
#
benwerd
backs away slowly from himself
#
bret
aaronpk: yeah a big one!
#
gRegor`
Hahaha
#
aaronpk
bret: YAY caseorga_ would like to cut something with it!
#
Loqi
does a happy dance!
#
bret
what are you trying to cut?
#
aaronpk
thin wood to make a game board
#
KevinMarks_
and I can't see benwerd on secret
#
benwerd
its algorithm is the ultimate silo black box
#
benwerd
it lies, proveably
#
gRegor`
I was reading about how it works the other day. Interesting.
#
bret
aaronpk: rad! it runs with some funky software but we can probrably figure it out
#
tantek
"secret sauce"
#
tantek
you need to self-heart to share your own with all your friends
#
tantek
er, followers
#
aaronpk
wait that works?
#
benwerd
aaronpk: I'm pretty certain it sometimes labels friends as being generic area posts, as friends of friends, etc
#
tantek
it only sends a subset of the secrets from those you follow
#
aaronpk
benwerd: I think if someone has fewer than 8 contacts then it intentionally shows up as area posts
#
tantek
it sends you ALL of the secrets that your friends heart
#
aaronpk
benwerd: so maybe thats what you were seeing?
#
benwerd
could easily be
#
KevinMarks_
except 'friends' is iOS addressbook, which for me is pretty random as I haven't used Apple addressbook since 2007
#
gRegor`
https://medium.com/secret-den/12ab82fda29f See "What doesn't happen"
#
aaronpk
heh, i have the opposite problem. i let facebook sync with my ios addressbook so all my facebook friends are potentially secret friends
#
benwerd
it's going to be pretty fun when they port to android and suck up everyone's google contacts list
#
KevinMarks_
which is huge. Though most iOS users do use the addressbook
#
KevinMarks_
this numberwang version needs to say "thats wangernum and rotate the board"
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gRegor`
On the wiki guest list, is "Missed You" for people that said they were coming but didn't show up? Otherwise I'm not sure the difference between "Regrets" and "Missed You" http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List
#
KevinMarks_
oh wait, it just did
#
snarfed
gRegor`: i think people put themselves in regrets, and put others in missed you
#
bret
how do people parse h-entry without losing html links?
#
bret
do you sanitise the html? or re-link the value?
#
gregorlove.com
created /Template:Attendee-apprentice (+1102) "Creating apprentice version of Template:attendee"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
bret: heh. we had a big discussion about that just an hr or so ago. check logs.
#
bret
XD ok
#
bret
missed that
#
@scottcsherwood
#OwnYourData "We believe in data portability. For that reason, our players can get an export of all of their data at any time" - @al86shaw
(twitter.com/_/status/447136608245264384)
#
snarfed
tl;dr: some people strip them entirely, some include them entirely, some want to sanitize. tag whitelist is probably a good place to start, e.g. http://wpbtips.wordpress.com/2010/05/23/html-allowed-in-comments-2/
#
bret
html sanitizing.... thats a thing I could probrably find a library for
#
tantek.com
created /sanitize (+1628) "stub with some stuff off the top of my head and from IRC"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /plaintext (+35) "linky, see also"
(view diff)
paulcp joined the channel
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+111) "/* Testing with new template */ Template:Attendee-apprentice"
(view diff)
#
tantek
KevinMarks, snarfed, benwerd, aaronpk, please add to this and especially what you personally do on your own site (what markup you allow etc.) http://indiewebcamp.com/sanitize
#
bret
hey aaronpk, why do the logs have a bunch of 'U+0002' in them?
#
aaronpk
might be an irc control character sneaking out
#
snarfed
thanks for starting the stub, tantek! updating now
#
bret
its pissing off these feed readers >:[ now, to figure out how to kill it
#
werd.io
edited /sanitize (+47) "/* IndieWeb Examples */"
(view diff)
#
snarfed.org
edited /sanitize (+236) "/* Approaches */ more on whitelisting HTML tags"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /Secret (+422) "stub"
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KevinMarks_
I remember Google reader had a stupid feed sanitzer that would break blockquotes
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bret
the irc logs-atom feed is close. running into sanitation issues though.... going to try a few things. here is a preview of the html that comes in the feed though: http://iwc-log-feed.herokuapp.com/htmltest
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tantek.com
edited /sanitize (+46) "npmjs"
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bret
this will be good experience to build an h-feed to atom proxy next
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gregorlove.com
created /Template:Attendee-apprentice/doc (+1648) "Template:Attendee-apprentice documentation"
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snarfed.org
edited /sanitize (+268) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ wordpress"
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bret
then I can experiment with publishing h-feed only, with atom provided by the proxy
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gRegor`
Any other wiki template requests? I'm on a roll. :)
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tantek
yes, in the Guest Lists, "Regrets" is for when people explicitly cancel (e.g. even if they just message this channel saying they're sorry they can't go
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tantek
whereas "Missed You" are for no shows
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tantek
It's a polite way of keeping track of people who were too rude/inconsiderate to explicitly cancel
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bret
more like shame box
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tantek
bret - subtle shame box - for those in the know
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tantek
I chose the headings very deliberately
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bret
i think you did well
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tantek
so that there was no obvious shame in anyone's name coming up in a Google result
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tantek
because that's not helpful
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tantek
but it is helpful to keep track for the community
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gRegor`
Makes sense
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tantek
so that we learn and can encourage people to behave better in the future (e.g. in in-person conversations)
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kylewm
sorry I missed the conversation about sanitizing, but it answered all my questions except maybe one -- would you recommend just always removing class="..." /style="..."
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tantek
ok I think I've caught up with wikifying stubs for today's conversations
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tantek
kylewm - good q
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tantek
easy/safe thing to do is to remove both
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KevinMarks_
if you remove classes won't you eat any embedded microformats?
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tantek
another alternative: drop "class", but keep "style" from "trusted" commenters
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tantek
KevinMarks - indeed
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tantek
just as "plaintext" removes plenty of nice styling
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tantek
and might change meaning
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tantek
KevinMarks, I think someone has to be brave and attempt a clever way to keep class names without risking the page content before we can recommend anything like that.
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tantek
and so far, no one has
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tantek
if you get comment embedding working on your site with class names included, that could be a good starting point for analysis.
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kylewm
I suppose it would be nice to keep microformats, if you can sandbox them within the comment body?
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kylewm
the problem I had is they were leaking into the h-cite they were part of
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tantek
the problem is with naked uf property class names in the e-content that are outside of any embedded h-*
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tantek
right, that get "hoisted" (as KevinMarks would say) up to containing h-*, e.g. h-cite
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KevinMarks_
hm. So put a class="h-quoted" around them?
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gregorlove.com
edited /User:Gregorlove.com/sandbox (+470) "empty list placeholder"
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tantek
Kevinmarks - you do realize an "h-quoted" inside an "h-cite" seems silly right?
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tantek
I mean, they're kind of the same thing
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KevinMarks_
yeah, just thinking of a way to avoid hoisting
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gregorlove.com
created /Template:Attendee-placeholder (+653) "Creating placeholder version of Template:attendee"
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tantek
KevinMarks, kylewm it sounds like we're in new(ish) territory here
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tantek
with "rich embedded citations" of a sort
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tantek
far beyond TCMOS or any other similar recommendations (which all only handle plain text embedded citations)
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (-362) "/* Wait List */ Trying out the placeholder template."
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (-68) "/* Apprentices */"
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kylewm
tantek, it's really interesting stuff... it seems a shame to lose the metadata
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kylewm
though i can't think of a use case for keeping it right now
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snarfed
perfect timing for this sanitizing conversation
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snarfed
is composing a reply to benwerd, and putting a URL directly in the contents, just because he knows benwerd strips html tags but auto-linkifies URLs
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+118) "/* Apprentices */"
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benwerd
snarfed: I need to switch to something more intelligent
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benwerd
(repeat that refrain for all kinds of things)
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snarfed
benwerd: eh. maybe, eventually, if it itches enough. ruthlessly prioritize, i say!
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tantek
benwerd, or at least capture your itches so you can decide later whether they really itch that much or not.
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tantek
also interesting to the rest of us to see what's itching you ;)
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benwerd
I need to update that itches page
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tantek
needs to go finish a blog post on URL experiments
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (-277) "/* Remote Participants */ More Template:Attendee in the wild!"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (-121) "/* Regrets */ Switched to Template:Attendee-placeholder"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+111) "/* Missed You */ Switched to Template:Attendee-placeholder"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (+117) "/* Regrets */"
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gregorlove.com
edited /2014/Guest_List (-31) "/* Missed You */"
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tantek.com
edited /multiple-reply (+95) "/* IndieWeb Examples */ kylewm"
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gregorlove.com
created /Template:Attendee-placeholder/doc (+1195) "Created page with "This template is used to generate a block when no one is on the list yet. == Blank Template == Copy, paste, and optionally enter a custom message: <pre style="line-height: 1.4e...""
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tantek
it's great to work with so many builders and creators. thank you all for being here.
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kylewm.com
edited /multiple-reply (+146) "/* Kyle Mahan */ added a little context about my use of multi-reply"
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gRegor`
http://indiewebcamp.com/2014/Guest_List has templates for all the lists now.
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gRegor`
And some hopefully helpful links to the templates / prompts in HTML comments when adding yourself to an empty list.
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gregorlove.com
edited /Template:Attendee-placeholder (-41) "Remove mf since it's a placeholder, not an actual person."
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snarfed
welcome tantek. great to have such a good community organizer too. thanks for rallying us all!
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gregorlove.com
created /Category:2014 (+47) "Mirrored description of 2013 category"
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bret
thanks t, and thanks for your hard work as well :)
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@malcolmblaney
RT @davewiner: I'm calling on the people who run "IndieWebCamp" to give up the fight against RSS. It loves you! Love it back. ;-)
(twitter.com/_/status/447153238853165056)
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KevinMarks_
should I ask dave if he wants to be an apprentice?
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bret
no you shouldnt
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bret
not sure what to do
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gRegor`
Haha, that would be funny.
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bret
it would be patronizing
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KevinMarks_
it would be, I was joking
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bret
its cool to see his taking positie stance though
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gRegor`
(Yeah, I didn't think anyone actually would)
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gRegor`
So I'm not in the know, is this Dave/IWC an ongoing thing, or did he just mention IWC today kind of out of the blue?
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bret
more positive*
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bret
he noticed rss criticism on the feed page
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KevinMarks_
he's only a rel="me" away from being able to sign in
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bret
didnt lke it
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kylewm.com
created /User:Kylewm.com (+607) "about me"
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bret
debate with dave doesnt seem terribly productive, but it would be really cool to get him to at least understand waht we are trying to do here
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benwerd
Complicated by a bunch of our (justified) criticisms towards an unrelated piece he wrote the other day, but I think he'd be an interesting perspective.
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KevinMarks_
I'd like to invite him to IWC NY
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bret
benwerd: that was tough to read/watch
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kylewm
benwerd, he said something to you like "I don't believe any of things you think I believe" did he expound on that at all?
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benwerd
kylewm: not at all
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KevinMarks_
He said that in context he was saying it was a risk, but one you should take. It didn't read that way
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benwerd
It really didn't, and that was enough to make it concerning
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bret
but a totally rss feed hardened perspective would be nice, in direct context to all the stuff happening here
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gRegor`
Are there any other examples of "mentions" streams, a la http://www.sandeep.io/mentions? I don't see anything on the wiki specific to that.
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gRegor`
I am working on something similar, but I think I'm going to show the text of replies, so it appears more like the "Notifications" tab on Twitter
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kylewm
gRegor`, I have mine as a (unpublicised) atom feed http://kylewm.com/mentions.atom
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