#indiewebcamp 2014-03-18

2014-03-18 UTC
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tantek.com edited /photos (+1769) "brainstorm subsections, add POSSE thoughts, add Why POSSE rather than TwitterCard here for now" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk, kylewm -- ok added based on above IRC discussions -- feel free to add to or edit
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/photos#POSSE
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tantek continues to pop the stack
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tantek ok didn't see/hear any objection to "feed file" so I'm going for it
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bear KartikPrabhu ++
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bear KartikPrabhu++
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Loqi KartikPrabhu has 10 karma
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bear ^^ for teaching me something about a Python module I didn't know about
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snarfed aww
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bear I *love* learning new things and that was a fun one to learn
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bear urljoin - I didn't know it existed
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snarfed whoa me neither!
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snarfed looking now
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snarfed oh man, nice
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bear yea - it solves in a single call the relative webmention issue
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kylewm snarfed: is "Bridgy Publish" common knowledge (i.e., ok to reference on the wiki)?
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tantek I believe it was openly demonstrated at IndieWebCampSF
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snarfed kylewm: sure, feel free to mention on the wiki
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tantek and summarized in KevinMarks' tweets
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snarfed i still need to add some ui and write docs before i announce it more loudly, but i'm not hiding it
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tantek.com created /feed_file (+880) "stub to start distinguishing separate feed files from the broader notion of "feeds"" (view diff)
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kylewm great, I just wanted to say "Bridgy Publish may help with POSSEing pictures to twitter and facebook", just so there's no confusion about the direction
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kylewm.com edited /photos (+44) "/* POSSE */ tiny clarifications of notes on POSSE vs. TwitterCards" (view diff)
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snarfed sure!
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kylewm and thank you for writing up those notes, tantek
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tantek kylewm - no problem, and thanks for the edits! :)
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tantek.com edited /feed_file (+7) "because yes, XML is legacy so we should be explicit about that" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /webmention (+216) "/* Why webmention instead of pingback */ Why webmention instead of Trackback so hopefully those tweeting about it have a chance of finding this by websearching for it" (view diff)
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nslater why use web mentions over http referers?
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nslater i asked that here:
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nslater http://stackoverflow.com/questions/22114335/why-use-trackbacks-instead-of-the-http-referer-header
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nslater but i'm not sure my question was answered
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tantek.com edited /feed (+139) "note historically feed files" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim nslater: i have been wondering that as well, but i suppose a simple answer is "intention"
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tantek I thought so too, but the SO answer is decent too
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nslater i wonder why that matters and why it's worth the complexity tradeoff
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tantek which is that HTTP referrers will happen A LOT
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tantek and cause extra processing
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tantek if used for this
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tantek whereas a webmention has more specific semantics
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tantek first time you get one it's like a "Create"
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tantek and second/further times it's an Update (or possibly Delete)
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aaronpk you could always make an http referer -> webmention bridge and see what happens :)
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aaronpk or just start parsing your referers and displaying them as comments if you find a post
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aaronpk like you said, the burden is on the linked-to site to parse the headers, so you can do it if you want without asking permission from anyone
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tantek.com edited /CRUD (+154) "more linky/phrasey for discovery" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim i hacked a test system for that a while ago, my issue was coming up with a way to handle and make sense of everything
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kylewm If someone posted a link to your site and no one ever clicked on it, would you ever get an HTTP Referer? asking out of ignorance
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pauloppenheim kinda becomes a crawler
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aaronpk kylewm: no
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pauloppenheim kylewm: no
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aaronpk it's sent by the browser
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aaronpk of course the linking site could make an HTTP request with the referer when the reply is created (which would be very similar to webmention then)
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tantek.com edited /CRUD (+60) "dfn abbr" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim ahh, right
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tantek kylewm - does this help? http://indiewebcamp.com/CRUD
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pauloppenheim nslater: privacy-minded individuals may disable sending referrers
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nslater pauloppenheim: all you need is a single referer
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nslater google bot is likely to provide that
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nslater number of referers could even be used as a metric to gauge importance
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nslater (number of occurrences of each url, i mean)
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tantek also re: HTTP Referers: http://ocaoimh.ie/2005/03/01/bye-bye-referer-spammers/
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pauloppenheim I'm unsure if bots send referrer
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nslater wrt spammers, trackbacks get spam. sure other protocols do too
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tantek nslater, relative amounts matter
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tantek not just if or not
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pauloppenheim but yeah, the referrer spam problem means that if you use it, you need to tool it
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nslater nods
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nslater though this seems like a game of cat and mouse
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nslater if you choose one protocol over another based on that, and then it gets popular, ... uh oh :)
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nslater would make even less sense to advocate based on that justification
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pauloppenheim nslater: one other nice thing about webmentions is that your webmention processor can be any URL
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pauloppenheim it would be easy enough to pack up and ship out logs too I suppose, but this is built in for the case of static sites
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tantek nslater - that's not the conclusion I come to, but rather that we have a window of opportunity to strengthen webmebmetion before it gets hit badly.
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KartikPrabhu bear: sorry I missed your question, but you seemed to have found that it works! :D
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tantek nslater - ok catching up to NewBase60 :)
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bear KartikPrabhu - yes :)
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tantek re: Flickr, yes, saw that, and cited it in my work on Whistle in particular: http://tantek.com/w/Whistle
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tantek so, problem, Flickr does not follow ASCII ordering
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nslater well my point is: spam is a common denominator. it makes no sense to sell a less popular system for its low level of spam, unless those low levels are attributable to the system, and not the lack of popularity. and if there were a way of protecting webmention against spam, presumably the same system could be tooled for other systems also
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tantek or rather base58
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tantek does not follow ASCII ordering
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nslater tantek: ah, yep. i saw you cited them, but was wondering what the deficiencies were
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tantek nslater, the reasons to use webmention are well documented: http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention#Why
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tantek note that spam is not mentioned
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tantek "makes no sense to sell a less popular system for its low level of spam" is a strawman argument - no one is doing htat
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tantek s/htat/that
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Loqi tantek meant to say: "makes no sense to sell a less popular system for its low level of spam" is a strawman argument - no one is doing that
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tantek nslater - re: deficiencies - short version, base58 etc. do not follow the methodologies given here: tantek.com/w/NewBase60#Methodology
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nslater the doc cited says its simpler than pingback. but as i say in my SO question, it still seems more complex than http referer. so interested to learn what is gained by adding that complexity
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tantek so you can figure that out by searching for why pingback instead of HTTP referers
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tantek a > b > c. transitive. QED.
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nslater assuming i agree with whatever i find :)
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pauloppenheim tantek: assuming all sets of arguments adhere to logic
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tantek both are reasonable bayesian assumptions :D
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nslater i didnt understand why pingbacks were used either
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bear.im edited /feed_file (+751) "a question about how mf2 feed will handle a more real-life feed file entry" (view diff)
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pauloppenheim nslater: i am with you on this one
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pauloppenheim nslater: but for right now the tool i was making to deal with referrer chomping is way more daunting already
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pauloppenheim nslater: to the point where i open that codebase and just close it again
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nslater i'm less interested in "are webmentions better than trackback/pingback/etc" and more "why does anybody use these things in the first place?"
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nslater pauloppenheim: hmm
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tantek nslater, pauloppenheim, yes, and your approach is the right now, question something by implementing the alternative that makes (more) sense to you. and document what you discover!
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tantek s/now/one
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Loqi tantek meant to say: nslater, pauloppenheim, yes, and your approach is the right one, question something by implementing the alternative that makes (more) sense to you. and document what you discover!
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pauloppenheim nslater: least of which because it assumes my webserver is logging referrer already
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nslater agreed
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tantek (with?)
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nslater your previous statement
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tantek there's nothing saying that webmention (or use thereof) can't be simplified further. someone just hasn't done it yet. ;)
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tantek bear, your questions aren't really about feed files
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bear yes, I'm realizing that as I go back and re-read
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bear I was just in the process of removing it
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nslater what's funny tantek is that i look at your NewBase60 method, and i think "damn, that's not quite right" and i want to make my own
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nslater cf. https://xkcd.com/927/
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bear.im edited /feed_file () "(-751) removed question because it really isn't about feed files" (view diff)
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nslater specifically, i don't like capital letters
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tantek nslater - google for "slice a url" :)
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bear I've just realized that I need to implement feed in order to grok why I am uncomfortable with it
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nslater does so
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tantek nslater, I like ASCII ordering ;)
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tantek bear, feel free to add questions about "how to" to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry
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tantek with specific examples of posts (permalinks) you want to markup with such special features
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bear nods
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nslater was just reading http://www.nngroup.com/articles/url-as-ui/ linked to from timbl's cooluris page, wheren neilsen argues that mixed capitalisation is bad for useability. he might be right. i just think they look ugly in urls. heh
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tantek which lends more credibility to your questions (beyond being theoretical or possibly based on dated assumptions / use-cases)
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bear I am going to gather some real world examples of past feeds that i've had to implement using atom and rss
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tantek nslater - yes, I tend to agree with that - for long URLs
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nslater right
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nslater reads /2011/238/b1/many-ways-
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tantek hopes he doesn't depress nslater too much. ;)
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tantek.com created /Keynote (+644) "stub with the obsolescence problem" (view diff)
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nslater hehe this is funny
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nslater though i feel like you're missing a line
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nslater the amount of times i've heard from the semweb folks that uris are *completely opaque* ;)
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tantek nslater - oh I have a different post for that ;)
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tantek starting with http://tantek.com/2014/071/t2/new-reason-just-url
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tantek then just keep clicking the right arrow :)
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nslater i read the URI spec one day, and was surprised to learn that everything after the third "/" is just binary data
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nslater i.e there's no default character encoding for urls!
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nslater could be anything you like. completely not specified. could be the binary for a png for all the spec cares
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nslater (there are a few reserved octet sequences, so you might have difficulty with that, but who knows)
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tantek for the LOLworthy thread: https://twitter.com/t/status/443890173047484416
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@t Yesterday I tried again to find a good use for "URI" (vs "URL") and found a new reason for just "URL". #nerdproblems (ttk.me t4V12) (twitter.com/_/status/443890173047484416)
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nslater i think i was looking into this because a url i was trying to use was being turned into mojibake by something
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pauloppenheim tantek: that thread is both lulzy and depressing, as is the article
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nslater read that thread
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nslater uses URLs on purpose most of the time
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pauloppenheim tantek: i actually know a scheme that is not a protocol
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tantek pauloppenheim - so do I. Hence "Launchers" :)
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nslater mailto:
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tantek there's lots of them
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tantek as Rainman would say
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nslater data:
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pauloppenheim right
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/445728422820462592)
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tantek #GoogleReader?!? What does that even mean/do?
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KartikPrabhu I don't understand why people are so nostalgic/sentimental about GoogleReader
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tantek indeed
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KartikPrabhu remembers posts about death of syndication because of Reader shutdown!
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tantek has been swapping those memories out to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed#Shutdowns
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KartikPrabhu what is a good way to reply to a note that also has a syndication version? For a use case, I have a reply http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader to barnabywalters post which I can webmention to him, but if I also add a link to his twitter synicated version i can use bridgy to POSSE as reply to his tweet. But then I'll have replied to 2 versions of the same thing...
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KartikPrabhu is confused how to handle this
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tantek KartikPrabhu - oh there's an answer, and a few of us are doing it
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tantek it involves two in-reply-tos
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tantek and it's explained here: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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KartikPrabhu yes but does that not indicate that both the in-reply-to are actually copies
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tantek it doesn't need to
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tantek finds a recent example
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tantek here you go: http://tantek.com/2014/067/t2/amazing-indiewebcamp-hack-day-full-posse-roundtrip
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tantek and there's a bunch here too: http://indiewebcamp.com/reply#POSSE_a_comment
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KartikPrabhu cool! I'll manually add both urls for now. will implement syndication discovery later. thanks
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brennannovak.com created /Store (+2943) "Created page with "As the number of IndieWeb related apps grow, so will the job of choosing which apps you want to install and what is compatible with your server. The goal is to create an easy to ..."" (view diff)
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brennannovak.com edited /Store (+3) "/* Examples */" (view diff)
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tantek those would be *Silo* examples :P
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tantek great to see this page started! thanks bnvk
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bnvk tantek: i'm super excited about exploring this aspect of IndieWeb, and making it easy to install different apps on different platforms :)
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tantek also the question of install *where*
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tantek app stores are typically for the *client*
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tantek whereas it looks like you're thinking installing on the *server* (e.g. prismbreak etc.)
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bnvk right, I need to write more, but its getting late here and wanted to push up something
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tantek so you might want to distinguish those
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kylewm tantek, so is the burden on the receiver to de-duplicate those replies? (remove comments where comment->permalink == comment->source->rel-syndication)
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tantek because otherwise it's apples and oranges
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tantek VERY different install / setup requirements
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bnvk definitely
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tantek kylewm - yes - see /webmention page for de-duplicating advice
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tantek bnvk - the FirefoxOS app store uses open formats & protocols for this already too
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tantek so there's already open prior art to "just use"
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bnvk the first case of this "app store" is create something that can used in ArkOS as well as IndieBox, that then hands off the machine instructions to their middleware
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tantek rather than documenting needs for a new format etc.
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tantek bnvk - so you're talking *server* app store
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tantek so that's very different
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tantek but you're using "examples" of *client* app stores to try to inform your design
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tantek you may have an impedance mismatch there
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bnvk well, server, is a lose term, a raspberry pi at home or a laptop... not much difference
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tantek might be more confusing than helpful
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tantek it's not a "loose term"
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tantek because it's in terms of user functionality
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bnvk mac desktops also have an app store
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tantek doing something for the user (client), vs. serving stuff across the internet to others (including the user) (server)
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tantek bnvk - yes, that's also client
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bnvk it's almost identical to the mobile one
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tantek so you need to split this into client vs. server sections on Store
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bnvk what do you mean by client then?
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tantek otherwise it's going to be VERY confusing
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tantek bnvk - all the existing stores you mentioned are ALL client
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tantek iOS, android, macos
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tantek etc.
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tantek whereas your brainstorming for Arkos indiebox etc. are all *server*
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bnvk by client do you mean "computer where software is installed" ?
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tantek where comparable examples would be things like Cpanel
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tantek bnvk see above about function focus
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tantek doing something for the user (client), vs. serving stuff across the internet (or an intranet) to others (server)
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bnvk so, are you saying navigating this interface I am talking about on a Raspberry Pi and using it to install software (on the Pi) would be server
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tantek bingo
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bnvk but then using this on your laptop would be called "client" ?
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tantek right, you *use* your laptop as a client
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tantek and you *use* the pi as a server
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bnvk mmm, I could also use my laptop as a server ;)
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tantek "could also use" is theoretical line of thinking - not useful sorry
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tantek or rather, adds noise to the discussion,
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bnvk I like thinking all of my devices as equal citizens on the net
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tantek that's a mistake
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tantek from a user-centric perspective, it's also a false perspective
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tantek from a security perspective, it's a false perspective
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tantek from a "how reliably are they connected to the net" perspective, it's also false
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bnvk I don't quite follow what "false perspective" means, unless it's just a nice way of saying "you're wrong"
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tantek provably wrong ;)
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bnvk my thinking is, most user's don't understand client and server
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tantek bnvk - no they understand client
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tantek they don't understand server
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bnvk really?
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tantek users don't typically manage servers
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tantek nor install software on them etc.
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bnvk a lot of users don't understand "web browser"
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bnvk they understand this device, that device, or "somewhere on the intenet"
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tantek not compared to server
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tantek bnvk - I reject "a lot of users don't understand "web browser" "
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tantek users install web browsers all the time
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tantek and you're falling into the "everyone" trap by saying "a lot of users"
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bnvk so because they install software, they understand what "type" of software it is?
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bnvk and how that functions in a greater eco system?
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tantek and security assumptions etc.
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tantek they understand what type of device it is
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bnvk tantek: what security assumptions are issues when considering a Pi or a laptop equal citizens?
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tantek again usage
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tantek leaving something on the network accessible from the internet
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tantek client vs. server security scenarios / attack vectors are different
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tantek overlapping, but different
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bnvk ok, sure
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tantek anyway have to run
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tantek but you need to split the page and make the client / server distinctions - or else it's going to be confusing / misleading
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pauloppenheim if we lived in Vint Cerf's store-and-forward post-IP-protocol future, laptops can be servers. Until then it's probably a bad idea.
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bnvk cheers, I'll be refining it more tomorrow and this week
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bnvk pauloppenheim: what do you see the main obstruction to laptops being servers? The IP4 issue?
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pauloppenheim they are regularly disconnected from the internet
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bnvk ok, what about home PCs?
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pauloppenheim bnvk: i do not know your technical background, so i do not know how seriously to take your inquiry
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bnvk i'm a software engineer and designer, I run a couple linode boxes, I used to run HTTP, FTP "servers" from my home windows PC in the 90s... I'm building Mailpile right now
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nslater of course, home laptops could be servers in the federate web
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nslater but we'd need some clever arch to make that happen
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pauloppenheim bnvk: what happened when you ran servers from your home PCs?
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nslater data would need to be redundant. lots of ways to approach that. you could bi-directionally replicate between peers, so that everybody has a lot of the data, and then you just end up requesting from whoever is nearest (and online)
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nslater one of the things im interested in adding to couchdb is bittorrent sync protocol
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pauloppenheim nslater: but that does not exist today for the media currently under discussion
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bnvk pauloppenheim: what do you mean what happened?
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pauloppenheim you can easily transmit immutable media that way today using bittorrent, yes.
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nslater pauloppenheim: it does actually. you can do it with couchdb. though you'll hit a snag with addressing
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pauloppenheim bnvk: can I access an URL that you were hosting on that machine in the time period you speak of?
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bnvk no, that was a 133 MHz pentium 1 that sadly has gone to the great silicon pile in the sky
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pauloppenheim nslater: i think that addressing snag is more than a snag
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bnvk but you can access this on my Air pauloppenheim: right now http://django.bnvk.me
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nslater pauloppenheim: oh?
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nslater pauloppenheim: bittorrent uses trackers for this, of course. why not trackers for the web
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pauloppenheim bnvk: ping: unknown host http://django.bnvk.me
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nslater magnet links instead of URLs for your website :)
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pauloppenheim nslater: i would love to see trackers for the web
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bnvk pauloppenheim: rly?
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pauloppenheim bnvk: i think you are proving my point
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bnvk whre are you ?
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pauloppenheim ya, rly
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pauloppenheim CA, USA
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nslater i see "Yo Dawg, I am a webserver coming from a Macbook Air using Pagekite"
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bnvk yep
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bnvk that's what you should be seeing
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pauloppenheim now it's working
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bnvk yah, I just turned on the daemon
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bnvk this is coming from Pi next to me http://moondog.bnvk.me
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bret works
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bret neat!
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nslater bnvk: so pauloppenheim's point is that a typical characteristic of a website is that it is always available. which is why websites are typically hosted on dedicated hardware, in dedicated buildings
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bnvk once IP6 rolls out more stuff like this will be much easier to do
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KevinMarks but still intermittent
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bret i have ipv6 at my house... sadly not a router that can support it
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bnvk right, that is "typical" assumed characteristic of a website
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KevinMarks this is where the "static with enhancements" idea works, IMO
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nslater one way of getting past that problem is to distribute your site across lots of machines. but the current web isn't set up to handle the addressing issues that come with that right now
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bnvk I don't want to assume that I always want all of my personal indie data always on, some data yes, some data, I'm fine with it being not accessible when I'm not online
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pauloppenheim nslater: round-robin dns and load balancing work fine today
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nslater pauloppenheim: not so well for an indie federated web where your data is on your friends laptops, though
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pauloppenheim bnvk: i would not assume that opinion generalizes, especially to laptops
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nslater yes, if you're balancing across a known pool of servers
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bnvk pauloppenheim: yes, that's why a lot of people like the raspberry pi idea
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pauloppenheim don't get me wrong guys, i agree this would be nice
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pauloppenheim but it does not work today
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bnvk would be nice, let's friggin build towards it
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bnvk if we say, the way the internet has gone the last 15 years is how it has always been and always will be, then that's how it will stay
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nslater one thing i like about couchapps is that they like the git of websites. i publish a couchapp, and you can clone it like you can clone a git repo. and someone can clone it from you. and we can merge in any direction we want
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bnvk personally, I'd like to not have to pay hosting companies when I can leave a small machine on at home
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pauloppenheim i'm not a spokesperson for this community, but it feels like that is another project, not the indieweb
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nslater in the same way it doesn't make sense to talk about a git repo being "online" it doesn't make sense to talk about a couchapp website being "online". it's a different way about thinking about the locality of a site
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pauloppenheim bnvk: you can leave a machine on at home if you want to, that does work today
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bnvk nslater: of our early IndieWeb friends Max Ogden made a couchapp clone of diaspora alpha like that
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pauloppenheim well, as much as your ISP works
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nslater oh max is an indie webber is he? cool
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nslater <3 max
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bnvk well, sorta, yes, was, maybe still?
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bnvk here it was https://github.com/maxogden/monocles
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nslater nice
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nslater have you read about unhosted before?
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bnvk yah, I'm friends with some of those dudes
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nslater unhosted is like your idea but even more extreme
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bnvk pauloppenheim: using pagekite if my ISP switches my IP or anything it adjusts to that as it pokes a hole through the LAN via reverse proxying
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bnvk nslater: right, I like that unhosted stuff, it's far out, but neat
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pauloppenheim bnvk: right, but your ISP connection might go down or otherwise be flaky
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bnvk nslater: if you like that checkout http://maidsafe.net
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pauloppenheim bnvk: but that might be acceptable to your purposes
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bnvk pauloppenheim: right, of course, my home connection is usually good enough- my personal site is not mission critical data that lives depend on, it's blog posts, notes, and my portfolio ;)
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pauloppenheim right
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nslater nice!
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pauloppenheim well, portfolio
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bnvk hehe
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pauloppenheim i've literally had my site go down during a job interview, and one of my interviewers said something snide about "well, good thing we're not interviewing you for operations"
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nslater i quite like the idea of only having your website available when your computer is running
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nslater it's counter-culture in a pleasing way
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bnvk lol, friggin interviewers
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nslater probably wouldn't do it myself though. perhaps better left as an idea ;)
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pauloppenheim nslater: go for it
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bnvk nslater: yes, it's kinda punk
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nslater having a website that only works when a raspi is on makes total sense though
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nslater assuming the website is related to the functioning of the raspi
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bnvk and in an indieweb "having conversations with my friends via our personal sites" I think it fits decently
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nslater will have to look at http://maidsafe.net/ later
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bnvk yah, they've put a lot of work into it
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bnvk anywho, good night gentle dudes, it's 2 AM here in Iceland, góða nótt ;)
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Loqi sleep tight!
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bnvk takk, Loqi
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pauloppenheim goodnight!
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@jciarletto Starting down the path of marking a small corner of the internet as “mine”. Indie web content here I come. #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/445744429987414016)
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KartikPrabhu some feedback for reply-context url display http://kartikprabhu.com/notes/nice-indieweb-reader :)
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: looks like a good first pass!
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snarfed next step might be to use twitter's embedding for tweets, or summary or title (forgot the mf2 properties) for normal posts when available
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KartikPrabhu yes! also auto-tagging tags :)
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Loqi caseorganic: tantek left you a message 4 hours, 22 minutes ago: - need to post a screenshot of that "This presentation cannot be opened b/c it is too old." !
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KartikPrabhu !tell barnabywalters: sorry for the double webmention to http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4V6Fna/ I thought it might update the mention not repeat it. Also, I was wondering why my photo didn't show up?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu bear: the new relative url thingy works great!
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bear excellent!
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bear I love simple solutions like that
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KevinMarks KartikPrabhu: what would the auto-tagged tags link to?
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snarfed KevinMarks: maybe lists of his own tagged posts on his site
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KevinMarks hm, interesting
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KevinMarks !tell tantek have you thought of autolinking #tags in cassis too?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu KevinMarks: yes link to related notes through tags :)
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KartikPrabhu but first I must tag notes
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wagle what do you guys use to send outgoing email from your own domains? (ie from home?)
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wagle (my port 25 is blocked by my ISP)
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kylewm_ wagle, even if it weren't blocked, I believe a lot of times mail that comes from residential IPs gets marked as spam ...
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kylewm_ I have a digital ocean VPS that is configured as a mail server... but it was a royal pain to set up
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kylewm_ and still not sure I did it right
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wagle i'm trying to run a bugzilla, need to send email to people with status updates, etc
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wagle yeah, was thinking that DO might be a way to go
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wagle still checking that a FTP server really costs $5 / month to run
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kylewm ohh, can you use one of the services with a free tier? just a sec looking up the one I have used
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kylewm Postmark, but I've only used it on heroku :/
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kylewm.com edited /email (-1) "it's -> its" (view diff)
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wagle day 17, and only $2.53
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wagle looks up postmark
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 24 minutes ago: have you thought of autolinking #tags in cassis too?
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wagle hmm.. heroku has a est cost field to display to you
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wagle but they wanna invent all new flashy terms for everythng
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wagle begins to wrap brain
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wagle i'm only expecting a few emails per month
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tantek good evening #indiewebcamp!
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tantek checks logs
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wagle no, i take that back, maybe a few a day to my regular email
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tantek Loqi, why are the logs empty?
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tantek nevermind Loqi
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Loqi yeah!
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wagle i have full logs for a month or two
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wagle in quassel
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kylewm tantek, am i right in thinking the "today" links are still on UTC time?
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tantek notes that the /topic redirects to logs for tomorrow ;)
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tantek kylewm - that appears to be what is happening yes
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tantek aaronpk ^^^
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wagle ooo
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wagle useful
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tantek wat
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wagle logs for tomorrow
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kylewm :)
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wagle sorry
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tantek imagines a markoff chain that generates tomorrow's logs, today.
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kylewm wagle, I have a heroku app that sends me like 3 emails a month and it's definitely free... but I have no idea if you could wire up bugzilla to talk to an external service for mail. might be easier to just configure it to send through an outside smtp
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kylewm sorry to not be more helpful
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wagle the bugzilla test case sent one email to a home mail sever, but the latter doesnt know how to email to the world
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wagle no, heroku looks interesting, it might do it
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wagle can i borrow your markov chain to project what I will know by tomorrow about email and heroku?
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wagle would ave a alot of time and effort
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wagle save
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kylewm we need a psychic robot!
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wagle Loqi: are you psychic?
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wagle awww.. dont have a full loqi instance here?
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tantek KevinMarks, indeed thought about #-autolinking but to what destination?
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KartikPrabhu tantek: could you not #-autolink to a feed of notes with that tag?
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tantek KartikPrabhu - nearly no one implements that
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tantek "feed of notes with that tag"
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KartikPrabhu i see. is that for some specific reason? people do link tags on articles to a list of articles with the same tag
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tantek just one example so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/tags
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KartikPrabhu is the idea that such autolinking is useful only in a silo like twitter?
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KartikPrabhu where notes from many authors can be listed?
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snarfed KartikPrabhu: no, i don't think so
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snarfed it's a common feature in many blogs and cmses
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snarfed "nearly no one" isn't accurate, regardless of that wiki page :P
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kylewm1 \quit
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KevinMarks2 I suppose you'd have to give it a tagspace to use
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KevinMarks2 WordPress generates one per blog, and a global one
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KevinMarks2 As does blogger
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acegiak pfefferle: hallo! did you see what I pushed for sempress?
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bnvk http://smalldata.tech.cornell.edu/
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pfefferle acegiak oh no... seems that i missed that... will have a look
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tantek !tell KartikPrabhu,snarfed,Kevinmarks I mean, yes, linking # hashtags to *something* makes sense, it's just there's no one consistent UI/UX for this (that I know of). Add proposals to: http://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle thanks for the tipp
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tantek !tell aaronpk I noticed some of your posts here show your name (alt text?) instead of icon/avatar: http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indieweb
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@brennannovak Scheming with @barnabywalters @cznweb #IndieWeb about how to bring a graphical App Store like experience... https://brennannovak.com/notes/404 (twitter.com/_/status/445912516208521216)
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@cznweb RT @brennannovak: Scheming with @barnabywalters @cznweb #IndieWeb about how to bring a graphical App Store like experience... https://t.co/… (twitter.com/_/status/445925102849654784)
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Loqi snarfed: tantek left you a message 1 hour, 57 minutes ago: I mean, yes, linking # hashtags to *something* makes sense, it's just there's no one consistent UI/UX for this (that I know of). Add proposals to: http://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag
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bnvk !tell barnabywalters what do you think about these domains http://www.godaddy.com/domains/searchresults-new3.aspx?ci=54814&isc=GPPT03C700 ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bnvk !tell tantek what do you think about these domains http://www.godaddy.com/domains/searchresults-new3.aspx?ci=54814&isc=GPPT03C700 ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tommorris Rails upgrades are so much fun.
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Loqi barnabywalters: KartikPrabhu left you a message 11 hours, 51 minutes ago: sorry for the double webmention to http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4V6Fna/ I thought it might update the mention not repeat it. Also, I was wondering why my photo didn't show up?
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Loqi barnabywalters: bnvk left you a message 31 minutes ago: what do you think about these domains http://www.godaddy.com/domains/searchresults-new3.aspx?ci=54814&isc=GPPT03C700 ?
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barnabywalters bnvk: I think that link is broken (typical go daddy)
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barnabywalters it’s just showing me a spinny thing
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cweiske barnabywalters, http://cweiske.de/tagebuch/tiny-tiny-rss-feed-detection.htm#enhancements for a screenshot how tt-rss allows you to select the feed
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barnabywalters cweiske: nice! that sounds like a sane algorithm
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barnabywalters all implemented client side?
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cweiske no, via ajax
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cweiske server-side
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cweiske in php
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barnabywalters ah, okay
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aaronpk good morning indiewebcamp!
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Loqi aaronpk: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 33 minutes ago: I noticed some of your posts here show your name (alt text?) instead of icon/avatar: http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indieweb
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barnabywalters morning aaronpk
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aaronpk !tell tantek that is a side effect of when my site archives its own content using indiearchive. not sure why the photo is missing there. either way this is getting fixed in my next push.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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bnvk barnabywalters: friggin GoDaddy
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tommorris rails app deployment needs to be much, much easier.
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bnvk looks like indieappstore.com is taken, but .net, .org, .info, .us are all available, or another URL could be figured out
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barnabywalters tommorris: s/rails app/
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tommorris might look into something like Docker soon to see if that might make things suck less.
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bnvk or I could try emailing the owner of the .com
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barnabywalters bnvk: might be worth a try — if not I’d say .org is most suitable
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bnvk feel free to weigh in aaronpk :)
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bnvk barnabywalters: yah the .org is nice, something .us feels decent as well, considering we have indiewebify.me
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barnabywalters install.us
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barnabywalters install.us/please would be the British English version
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bnvk hehe
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barnabywalters !tell KartikPrabhu pretty sure both are my fault as your markup looks fine — double mention might even be an index locking problem on my side. Not sure what’s going on with author markup but yours looks good — could be improved with url property though :)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tommorris waves a warm welcome to dangillmor
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: tantek left you a message 3 hours, 24 minutes ago: I mean, yes, linking # hashtags to *something* makes sense, it's just there's no one consistent UI/UX for this (that I know of). Add proposals to: http://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: barnabywalters left you a message 16 minutes ago: pretty sure both are my fault as your markup looks fine — double mention might even be an index locking problem on my side. Not sure what’s going on with author markup but yours looks good — could be improved with url property though :)
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dangillmor Good to be here...
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@PodcastFrance J'écoute #onvar épisode 32 de @indiewebrecordings => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-32.mp3 via @Podcast_Addict (twitter.com/_/status/445949896684994560)
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barnabywalters welcome dangillmor!
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aaronpk uhoh
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KartikPrabhu barnabywalters: yes url prop is something to add for sure
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/445951283426373632)
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kylewm morning KartikPrabhu, fyi I'm working on value-class-pattern parsing for datetimes
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kylewm my first pass at just naively joining them together was not great :)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: morning! sounds great. I made some changes in the past week to mf2py just so you know
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KartikPrabhu always better to have something and then iterate
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kylewm oh great, thank you, I will pull from upstream
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tommorris just started publishing a new type of content - a place.
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tommorris http://tommorris.org/places/1
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aaronpk oo
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aaronpk sequential numbers?
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tommorris Yup.
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tommorris Only one post so far.
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KevinMarks2 In the hallowed instagram tradition
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aaronpk there's a review there too?
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tommorris Yep, will be marking up geo and h-review
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tommorris Wanted to get it up on the web first.
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tommorris The difficult bit was building some geo-hierarchy
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barnabywalters tommorris: nice work!
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tommorris so there’s http://tommorris.org/places/uk and http://tommorris.org/places/uk/london so far
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tommorris Basically I wanted a place to put all the stuff I’d chucked into Foursquare.
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kylewm KartikPrabhu, do you know if your changes (from the last week or so) will pull out the u-url from http://tantek.com/2014/030/t1/handmade-art-indieweb-reply-webmention-want ?
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aaronpk oboy hierarchy stuff gets complicated fast
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aaronpk I was thinking about doing places entirely with tags, so there's no hierarchy just a bunch of tags
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tommorris aaronpk: yeah. I ended up deciding to build my own. countries (which use domain name suffixes), then ‘areas’ which are nested. it’s done solely on the basis of my own need.
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aaronpk like your place "1" would be tagged "uk" and "london"
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tommorris so, I may rearrange the hierarchy whenever I feel like it. ;)
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tommorris but equivalences will be declared with Wikipedia, Wikidata and OSM.
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: you can test mf2py live from http://kartikprabhu.com/connection/mfparser except of course absolute normalization of urls
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KartikPrabhu which I have tested independently
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KartikPrabhu tommorris: places! good stuff
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kylewm KartikPrabhu, oh right! so that's interesting, u-url and u-uid for the h-entry are empty
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@PodcastFrance J'ecouye #onvar 32 et 33 de @IndieWebRecords => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-33.mp3 (twitter.com/_/status/445954601385463808)
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: yeah that is weird
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: aah those should come from a value of an input element
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KartikPrabhu which isn't in the spec!
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: u-url and u-uid in http://tantek.com/2014/030/t1/handmade-art-indieweb-reply-webmention-want are as value attribute of input element but mf2 spec does not have rules to parse those.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KartikPrabhu !tell tantek: scratch that my bad. there is a rule
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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kylewm hehe
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: seems the url parsing rules are incorrect. I'll fix those
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KartikPrabhu it is basically missing exactly that use case :|
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: pushed fix
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KartikPrabhu kylewm: also live on the site :)
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kylewm KartikPrabhu, lol, that was quick
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Loqi tantek: bnvk left you a message 1 hour, 44 minutes ago: what do you think about these domains http://www.godaddy.com/domains/searchresults-new3.aspx?ci=54814&isc=GPPT03C700 ?
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 1 hour, 3 minutes ago: that is a side effect of when my site archives its own content using indiearchive. not sure why the photo is missing there. either way this is getting fixed in my next push.
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 14 minutes ago: u-url and u-uid in http://tantek.com/2014/030/t1/handmade-art-indieweb-reply-webmention-want are as value attribute of input element but mf2 spec does not have rules to parse those.
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Loqi tantek: KartikPrabhu left you a message 14 minutes ago: scratch that my bad. there is a rule
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tantek heh
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KartikPrabhu eh! ignore those tantek :)
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aaronpk lol wow
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tantek bnvk I'm not seeing anything at that godaddy URL sorry
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KartikPrabhu there should be a way to scratch your last tell message
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aaronpk !untell?
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tantek just an empty form with a spinner
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KartikPrabhu or !scratchthat :)
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tantek usually JS crap app
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tantek !tell bnvk godaddy JS crap app fail. no results.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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@kevinmarks "@firefox: "Keep the Web in people's hands." -@MitchellBaker https://www.youtube.com/ #TheOpenAgenda" #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/445960132770279425)
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tantek aaronpk, looks like Loqi is pruning youtube URLs from tweets ^^^ (original tweet has completely link)
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bnvk tantek: yep, sorry, GD so hatable! Was saying indieappstore.com is taken, but .net, .org, .info, .us are available- thoughts? :)
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Loqi bnvk: tantek left you a message 6 minutes ago: godaddy JS crap app fail. no results.
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tantek not sure what it would be for?
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tantek I'd say better to spend time clarifying thoughts first (e.g. on the wiki) - there will be plenty of domains to choose from once you have a solid idea what you would use it for.
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aaronpk tantek: it's a problem with following the redirect. i think youtube is sending a different URL back for the loqi user agent
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tantek which redirect? t.co?
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bnvk tantek: I have what I think is a solid idea (baring explaining client / server qualm you have) as outlined in the wiki, I guess you disagree
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tantek if you can't explain the UX simply, then I don't think you have a solid idea. just my opinion.
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tantek takes another look at the wiki
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bnvk explain the UX?
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waterpigs.co.uk moved /Store to /store "store is not a proper noun"
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tantek haha just went there barnabywalters right before you did that move :)
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bnvk tantek: see"Store Development Stages"
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bnvk me too
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /store (+5) "/* App Information */ copy edit, this ‘aint github edit" (view diff)
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bnvk my thinking is cloning the Prism Break repo, styling it up a lil bit differently then adding it to whatever domain is chosen which will make the http://indiewebcamp.com/Projects type thing a bit more user friendly for the IW curious user
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bnvk of course, a lot of the projects are not super easy to install yet, but it will lay a foundation for that sort of experience people are used to
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tantek bnvk - none of the projects are super easy to install yet
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tantek so I'm not sure there's anything to lay a foundation for
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tantek nor any experience to draw from about what such an experience should be like
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bnvk the foundation of the user flow of getting involved with indie web and installing an IW app- so in 3, 6, 9 months when one or more projects are easy to get working, the UX of choosing and quickly browsing will be handled to some degree
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bnvk of course, this will be iterated on along the way
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tantek To be clear, if you think that's the next highest priority for you personally, e.g. for making it easier to (un)install on your own personal site, then go for it.
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tantek you might want to first look at who's actually making progress on this front, e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/sovereign
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tantek and it's really at just the "installation" phase of figuring stuff out now
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barnabywalters actually out of all of us bnvk has more projects ready (ish) for widespread use, in Mailpile and SocialIgniter
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tantek store = installation + payment
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@teamidno Check out our submission for the @knightfdn #newschallenge: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/idno-a-collective-storytelling-platform-that-supports-the-diversity-of-the-web #indieweb http://hello.idno.co/s/4fswb (twitter.com/_/status/445964663633637376)
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barnabywalters yay!
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Loqi woot
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bnvk yayay, way to go IDNO
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tantek go Idno go!
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barnabywalters everyone go “applaud” that submission
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tantek barnabywalters - I'd challenge that assertion. I don't believe any project is "ready(ish)" for widespread use until you've got at least a few alpha/beta users that can confirm as much.
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tantek bnvk - is anyone else using Social Igniter on their own domain? add them! http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#Social_Igniter
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barnabywalters tantek: AFAIK Mailpile has a number of alpha users
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bnvk tantek: cool, my thinking is there are also other projects like OwnCloud that can be added as well
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bnvk Many of these not technically IW in that they don't have micro formats as part of their structure, but this move could be an olive branch to those communities / projects
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tantek bnvk - it's not about microformats - it's about whether or not the project creators / developers actually selfdogfood their own projects on their own domains
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tantek without that - I hate to say it - but the projects are *ignorable* - because they will eventually die
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tantek very poor investment of time
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tantek and if the project creators / developers actually selfdogfood, then document them in the wiki: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects
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bnvk tantek: hangin with the ownCloud devs in Berlin, close to 100% of them self dog food
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bnvk I use it daily
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tantek then add them and their personal domains which are running it to this: http://indiewebcamp.com/projects#ownCloud
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tantek so far there are zero devs on it there
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tantek (devs on the project itself)
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tantek basically I'm saying that unless you can take the few minutes to document with specific names and URLs, I'm not going to believe you
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bnvk uh... just because they haven't seen the value in adding themselves to our wiki != your assumptions are correct
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tantek *you* can add them to the wiki
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bnvk that feels like a waste of time to me
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tantek but if *no one* wants to bother to add them, then yes, why bother
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tantek bnvk - it's a good way to filter out projects that won't last
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tantek if no one involved with them, or who has heard of them, can't be bothered to add a few lines of text
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tantek it's a "proof of work" protocol :P
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bnvk attending their hackathon and seeing 60+self dog fooding devs, as well as the 98 daily who are in #owncloud-dev, as well large German universities using it for their students was enough verification for me
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tantek flash in the pan
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bnvk meh, whatever
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tantek numerous projects over the years have held big hackathons, and then died
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tantek or worse, they turn into monocultures
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bnvk sure
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tantek anyway - feel free to add citations for this stuff here: http://indiewebcamp.com/ownCloud
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bnvk that still doesn't make them any less relevant
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tantek that's the whole point of "proof of work" style challenges
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tantek if something/someone isn't able to step up to the challenge, then yes, it DOES make them less relevant / worth spending time on
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tantek especially when the challenge is so small like add a few lines of text
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /ownCloud (+133) "added bnvk dev selfdogfood citation" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /ownCloud (+14) (view diff)
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tantek bnvk - examples: whatever happened to Locker Project? or Unhosted?
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waterpigs.co.uk created /OwnCloud (+21) "Redirected page to [[ownCloud]]" (view diff)
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barnabywalters jeez, what is up with mediawiki redirect syntax
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barnabywalters such inconsistency
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bnvk tantek: yes, Locker was a said case of not figuring out how to sustain itself, then selling out. Jeremy used to dog food ;)
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tantek bnvk - never saw any URL evidence of selfdogfooding of Locker Project.
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tantek and yes, I did ask Jeremy directly for it
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tantek barnabywalters - lowercase works too: #redirect:[[ownCloud]] - and easier to type
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bnvk the evidence I saw was Jeremy had his personal social data backed up to a USB key he had stored on his bracelet
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tantek but his own website didn't seem to use it
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tantek there wasn't anything "web" about it
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barnabywalters another example, sadly, is OpenPhoto — it’s tricky to figure out exactly what’s happened to it since it became Trovebox
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bnvk I believe he didn't have a personal website with a public URL as he was envisioning as a way to backup personal data in one place
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tantek non-web projects are fine, they're just not "indieweb"
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barnabywalters and my installation is still broken :(
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tantek barnabywalters - yeah
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tantek did the openphoto pages get moved accordingly?
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brennannovak.com edited /ownCloud (+125) (view diff)
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barnabywalters on the wiki? I don’t think anyone noticed/cared enough to do that bit of maintentance
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tantek.com edited /photos (+30) "/* Software */ update to Trovebox" (view diff)
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tantek wow there never was an "openphoto" page created!
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tantek guess people really didn't care much about that project
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bnvk tantek: a lot of privacy minded people might not want to list URL's publicly to sites that contain their personal data, not sure how that real world concern fits into your rubric
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tantek bnvk, based on experience I'm skeptical of those that don't show their work, it's that simple.
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barnabywalters bnvk: I made some changes to indiewebify me (reply/like/repost validation, datetime error detection, improved content display) — can you deploy? changes require a composer update
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tantek at the Federated Social Web Summit, some of the biggest talkers were "privacy minded people"
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tantek and the sessions about privacy / security
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bnvk barnabywalters: yah, I'll do that now
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barnabywalters bnvk: thanks!
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tantek LOTS of handwaving - very little actual work / shipping
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tantek bnvk - do any of those privacy minded people use Twitter to post public tweets?
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bnvk in some cases you're definitely right
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bnvk yes, some of these people absolutely do
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tantek let me guess - they discuss things on a mailing list too?
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bnvk mmm, can't confirm or deny that
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bnvk lol
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tantek haha
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tantek barnabywalters do you still "use" Trovebox? or is it just in a dead state on your server and you haven't transferred stuff out yet?
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kylewm !tell KartikPrabhu, I set up a mf2py endpoint for my branch here http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url= . you can see the changes from the PR I sent here in the published properties, http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2014%2F075%2Ft1%2Factions-consequences-planning-regardless
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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barnabywalters tantek: it’s dead, pending transfer of relevant content to Taproot
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barnabywalters I could probably attempt to debug the JS-related problem but would rather put that time into making getting Taproot displaying photo posts better
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tantek ok - I'm deleting your testimonial about it being "a good candidate for being in the Production section. It’s reliable and fairly well polished"
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barnabywalters go ahead
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tantek I wonder about j12t
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tantek !tell j12t are you still using Open Photo / Trovebox "running a private instance for … family pictures" ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com created /Trovebox (+1774) "stub at least for historical purposes" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /projects () "(-527) rename open photo to trovebox, link to main article, demote from production section back down to experimental due to problems, drop barnaby as user of" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Trovebox (-8) "/* Formerly */ de-dup pending" (view diff)
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barnabywalters bnvk: oops, I seem to have accidentally replied to your comment on the idno KNC thing! UI weirdness
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bnvk hehe, yah, I saw that
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barnabywalters the “comment” box is completely separate to the rest
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bnvk yep
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barnabywalters acegiak: looks like your likes are marked up with h-like-of! that should be a h-cite, and here’s a fancy webpage demonstrating it: http://indiewebify.waterpigs.co.uk/validate-h-entry/?url=http%3A%2F%2Facegiak.net%2F2014%2F03%2F16%2Fhttpaaronparecki-com-watching-videos-of-yesterdays-flight-set-to-music-longphoto%2F
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tantek yeah - like "u-like-of h-cite" right?
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barnabywalters indeed. I’ll add a code sample later. got to go now
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dangillmor Can anyone point to a graphic that would help a novice understand indieweb principles?
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tantek dangillmor - coincidence - Amber (caseorganic) just started working on exactly such a diagram yesterday
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tantek !tell barnabywalters heads up, appears your POSSE tweets may be truncating URLs, e.g. https://twitter.com/BarnabyWalters/status/445966450017058816 links to: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submi (which is a 404) (/me has a feeling he's going to get a CASSIS bug report as a result)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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KevinMarks so, are we goign to do an indiewebcamp knight submission?
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Loqi KevinMarks: tantek left you a message 6 hours ago: I mean, yes, linking # hashtags to *something* makes sense, it's just there's no one consistent UI/UX for this (that I know of). Add proposals to: http://indiewebcamp.com/hashtag
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KevinMarks see also https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/stop-letting-facebook-own-your-data-web-applications-should-ask-you-for-your-data-not-the-other-way-around
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KevinMarks https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/idno-a-collective-storytelling-platform-that-supports-the-diversity-of-the-web
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snarfed the LinkedData reference in that first proposal is new to me. anyone familiar with it? http://linkeddata.org/
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snarfed looks a bit like a semantic web thing
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tantek snarfed, yeah, step back slowly ;)
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snarfed heh, yup
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tantek lest you get trapped in circular semantic discussions
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tantek KevinMarks - is this what DanGillmor was talking about?
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tantek if so, want to start drafting it on the IWC wiki?
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KevinMarks tantek: yes, it's due today
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tantek feel free to use wiki/etherpad for drafting it then so the rest of us can give feedback. submit it when you feel it's good enough.
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bret aaronpk: what is http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/feed.atom used for?
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Loqi http is not ok
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bret ok Loqi
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bnvk fans of my project Mailpile, feel free to express your appreciation at https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/mailpile-secure-e-mail-for-the-masses :)
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bret is anyone else doing a challenge?
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KevinMarks anyone interested in https://2014.battlehack.org/
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tantek bnvk woohoo!
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tantek bnvk I think idno is also: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/idno-a-collective-storytelling-platform-that-supports-the-diversity-of-the-web
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KevinMarks also camlistore
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tantek heh just saw bnvk's comment on that :)
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tantek discovers that Zuck's FBID is 4
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tantek is hacking URLs for personal comms :D
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KevinMarks heh
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KevinMarks that's like instagram's location IDs
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KevinMarks 1 is their office
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KevinMarks 10 is the Bloodhound Bar
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aaronpk bret: I was experimenting with PuSH for the IRC logs, trying to get google to index the chat logs faster
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aaronpk (re: the atom feed for irc logs)
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tantek anyone know a test account for gtalk? paging XMPP peeps bear et al
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bear you need a testing account against gtalk?
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aaronpk did you just say paging?
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bear :)
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@SergioLuque RT @PodcastFrance: J'ecouye #onvar 32 et 33 de @IndieWebRecords => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-33.mp3 (twitter.com/_/status/446004537086992385)
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@EsportTalks RT @PodcastFrance: J'ecouye #onvar 32 et 33 de @IndieWebRecords => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-33.mp3 (twitter.com/_/status/446004537099571200)
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@IndieWebRecords RT @PodcastFrance: J'ecouye #onvar 32 et 33 de @IndieWebRecords => http://indiewebrecordings.com/podcasts/onvar/Onvar-Episode-33.mp3 (twitter.com/_/status/446004537074397184)
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tantek wat
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aaronpk adds "PodcastFrance" to the blacklist
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KevinMarks what do you mean a test account?
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bear I thought any gmail account could be used for tests - they are easy to create
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bear will be back in 30
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@benwerd Loving the new, super-clear #indieweb description over at http://t.co/hQkBbdidjI. Nicely done. (twitter.com/_/status/446005154437799937)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/2014/loving-the-new-super-clear-indieweb-description-over-at-nicely-done linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (webmention)
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tantek !tell brianloveswords are you still available to help with co-organizing IndieWebCampNYC?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek And on that note - consider this a call for co-organizers for IndieWebCampNYC - who else is in NYC and can help organize, get local sponsors etc.?
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caseorganic dangillmor: tantek: yes, working on the diagram this evening, likely after our call
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tantek great!
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dangillmor caseorganic: tantek: glad to hear. I was hoping to attach to a Knight application I'm submitting separately (to create an "Open Internet MOOC") but look forward to seeing it!
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tantek looks up MOOC
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caseorganic dangillmor: great! when do you need it by?
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tantek Knight apps due today right?
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dangillmor it closes in <70 minutes. don't worry, image is not essential.
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Jeena Haven't have time following here due to new job and everything, but the setup I created before that works pretty neat so I am still posting everything to my own website and POSSEing.
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snarfed glad to hear it Jeena!
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snarfed how's ramp up at the new job?
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Jeena It works quite well, the C++ they use isn't very complicated so I haven't had problems yet. The most I have to learn is how to use cmake and emacs (I had to pic some editor for Linux and vi didn't really work for me)
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Jeena love the fact that there is so much talk and effort put into open source and open protocols, etc.
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snarfed that's great! glad to hear it's going well
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Jeena for example for inter process communication instead of inventing something propriatary we always use dbus
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snarfed ah nice
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Jeena and it looks like I will be writing software for Tizen too
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snarfed interesting!
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aaronpk has anybody published public todo lists on their site? anything like foursquare's todo lists even?
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tantek aaronpk - I believe our IndieWebCamp user pages have to do lists ;)
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Jeena they want to use Tizen in IVI (in vihicle infotainment) devices too, I always thought it was "just" a mobile phone OS.
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aaronpk hmm that is true!
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aaronpk I want to publish a "todo list" of places to go, then check them off when I check in to places
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tantek aaronpk - I'd be more interested in the query/notification half of that
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tantek e.g. I am here (latlong), what to-dos do I have nearby?
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tantek geonotes style
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aaronpk ah yeah. in this case I have a specific use case for the list, the goal is to go to all the places so I will likely be picking a place ahead of time.
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tantek then it seems like the "checking off" could be completely passive - just watch your checkins stream, query your store for to-do's, and check them off automatically.
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tantek no need to even publish your to-dos
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bear tantek - the one I know of is guru@googlelabs.com
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aaronpk I actually only want to check it off the list if I go there with a specific person, so... :)
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tommorris Just published another ‘palce’: http://tommorris.org/places/2
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tommorris ‘place’ rather ;)
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tommorris Now making a list of all the bars and restaurants I need to review on my site.
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aaronpk tommorris: so are you actually publishing reviews?
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aaronpk or are these "place" records that you may create checkin posts that reference later?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/446005154437799937/16168410 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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snarfed huh, right. indie reviews. i should think about adding similar markup to e.g. https://snarfed.org/movies , https://snarfed.org/beer , https://snarfed.org/restaurants , etc
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/446005154437799937/13621 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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aaronpk whoa neat
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kylewm you have interesting movie taste, snarfed. what does it mean if a movie has more than 1 marker?
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snarfed yeah, good question. it means i both liked it and didn't like it
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snarfed good parts and bad parts, etc
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snarfed or like e.g. requiem for a dream, it was clearly a great movie, but so harsh or intense i couldn't take it
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snarfed other lists: https://snarfed.org/lists . gotta love data nerdery.
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tantek just figured out that gtalk: URLs fail in iOS7
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kylewm I want to watch all the movies that have all three good/bad/indifferents :)
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tantek or rather, the Google Hangouts app fails to register itself as handling gtalk: URLs
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snarfed kylewm: lol. maybe two or three total?
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snarfed tantek: yup, that
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tantek sigh
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tantek skype has no such trouble with skype: URLs
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tantek also FB Messenger app fails to register as handling fb: URLs
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tantek also on iOS
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snarfed tantek: clearly you have no choice but to switch to android
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snarfed ducks
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tantek whereas even the AIM iOS app registers to handle aim: URLs
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tantek snarfed - hehe - these are links for OTHER PEOPLE to click on
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tantek so I'm just going to hide what doesn't work on iOS, when iOS users visit
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snarfed clearly they have no choice but to switch to android :P
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tantek and similar for Android users I will hide SMS / Facetime icons
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tommorris aaronpk: they are sort of half way between reviews and checkins. really just “these places are interesting”.
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snarfed well, or pop up an alert, so they at least know they *can* use those methods
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tantek oh, because "pop up an alert" is such a nice user experience :P
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tantek people are happier not knowing what options don't work for them
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snarfed !
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tommorris iOS really needs to steal web intents from android. it’s one thing android has gotten right that iOS is failing at.
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tantek tommorris - sort of?
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snarfed tantek: those options work fine, they just have to open the apps manually
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aaronpk iOS already has some of web intents
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tantek tommorris - you mean just "intents"
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tantek or "android intents"
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aaronpk s/web //
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: iOS already has some of intents
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snarfed btw, sms: or smsto: don't work on android? i think they should
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tantek hahaha you're all calling it "web intents" when "web intents" are the thing that died
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Loqi hahaha
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tommorris heh. brainfucked.
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hober intents is awful api
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tantek that's "web intents" for you. long on evangelism. short on actual UX / just-make-it-work
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hober way too abstract
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tantek awesome, web intents are apparently a good way to wake up hober
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hober :)
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tantek maybe we should call them hober intents :D
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hober nooooooooooooooo
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tantek I suppose that should have been a >:)
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tantek snarfed, sms: does not work on android to txt iMessage/AppleID addresses
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tantek now has a test page up for various links
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snarfed tantek: ah, sure. so you can use a phone number, just not an imessage address
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tantek who wants to help test?
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tommorris tantek: on the “sort of” front - I’m not sure what the ‘places’ thing on my site will become. It’s reviews+foursquare tips but with some genuine tommorris™ snark added.
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snarfed i wonder if there's a third party imessage app on android
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aaronpk snarfed: there is, but that's super sketchy
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caseorganic dangillmor: 70 min - that's a short time period. I'm doing employee reviews today so I won't be able to finish the diagram in time. Definitely in time for the Knight Grant, though!
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tantek tommorris, but you repeat yourself: "on my site" and "with some genuine tommorris™ snark added"
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snarfed aaronpk: super sketchy or nothing, i guess
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tantek tommorris sounds like "venue" pages, which then have a collection of h-reviews on them
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aaronpk it's made by some chinese company that has to run servers to "help" with the connection, so...sure..
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tommorris notes that he has ‘We the Media’ on his bookshelf.
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tantek tommorris: http://indiewebcamp.com/venue
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tantek aaronpk LOL!
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tantek snarfed, you have an android right?
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tommorris Android iMessage implementation: sends it using iMessage via Mechanical Turk.
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snarfed tantek: yeah
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snarfed want some testing?
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tommorris I mean, the NSA are reading it anyway. May as well have some dude in India read it for a tenth of a cent too.
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KevinMarks has androids
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KevinMarks also firefoxOS phone
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@RossGoodman @pfefferle Just started experimenting with the webmention plugin on my wordpress blog .... (twitter.com/_/status/446022493485428736)
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KevinMarks 2048 starts faster on the FirefoxOS phone than Threes does on iOS
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KevinMarks should do a video
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dangillmor My Knight News Challenge entry: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/the-open-internet-mooc
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kylewm dangillmor++ that sounds amazing
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Loqi dangillmor has 2 karma
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caseorganic dangillmor: very nice
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caseorganic dangillmor: there are literally 13 min before submissions end?
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caseorganic dangillmor: do you have a draft for the indieweb one we talked about? I had no idea submissions were ending so soon! there's no time!
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aaronpk oh no!
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snarfed QUICK EVERYONE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO SOMETHING
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KevinMarks wht, 13 mins?
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KevinMarks I was just drafting one
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KevinMarks but I thought it was midnight
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caseorganic dangillmor: i wish you had let me know yesterday! i would've moved our call to 7am.
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caseorganic KevinMarks: i also thought it was midnight
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caseorganic KevinMarks: can you share yours?
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KevinMarks procrastinators uniye
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KevinMarks of course, but it isn't written
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KevinMarks I literally just started it
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caseorganic if we had an hour -- but 10 min
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caseorganic KevinMarks: copy paste it here, maybe i can submit one
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caseorganic 10 min left
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caseorganic and that diagram - i don't have it made yet
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kevinmarks.com created /KinghtChallenge2014 (+463) "Knight foundation submission" (view diff)
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caseorganic KevinMarks: thanks!
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caseorganic KevinMarks: can you fill in more aobut salary?
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caseorganic 3 $75k fellowships to allow work on the indieweb
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dangillmor KevinMarks: that sounds terrific
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kevinmarks.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+544) "/* IndieWeb Fellowships */ add other fields" (view diff)
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dangillmor caseorganic: I only found out today about the weird mid-day deadline.
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KevinMarks do the proposals normally have cash prices attached?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: i don't know.
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dangillmor KevinMarks: I don't see any field asking for one in this form. Do you?
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KevinMarks dan?
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caseorganic aaronpk: i'm looking for the OSB proposal for indieweb - do you have a copy? can't find on my wiki
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KevinMarks do we put ambers indieweb explanation video?
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aaronpk oh let me check
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caseorganic KevinMarks: good idea
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caseorganic KevinMarks: the one from New Relic
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KevinMarks URL?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: add it to the wiki page
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aaronpk caseorganic: it was oscon
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aaronpk if you sign in you can see yours
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aaronpk http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/user/proposal
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caseorganic KevinMarks: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Au4bHb5twF4&feature=youtu.be
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caseorganic aaronpk++
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Loqi aaronpk has 396 karma
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kevinmarks.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+467) "/* IndieWeb Fellowships */" (view diff)
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caseorganic KevinMarks: thank you - keep going - we have 2 min left and i'm submitting whatever i have in that 2 min period
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dangillmor KevinMarks: even a barebones submission is better than none...
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KevinMarks are you submitting, amber?
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KevinMarks OK
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caseorganic KevinMarks: need bio for you kevin
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caseorganic KevinMarks: need dangilmor bio
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KevinMarks https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ElQ9g1rVwEU6ETSc1M7hfYm5jiO75dT6yMqCv98lJEc/edit
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KevinMarks Kevin Marks is building a startup based on indieweb principles. Over the last 20 years he's moved between giant companies and founding startups - BBC, The UK MultiMedia Corporation, Apple QuickTime, Technorati, Google, BT, Salesforce. The common thread has been working out how people, computers and media can complement each other, and solving the engineering and social problems where they meet. He is one of the driving force
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dangillmor caseorganic: feel free to mention me but not as a co-applicant, because i'm writing about indieweb
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caseorganic ok
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KevinMarks mention dan as an example of the stage 2
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KevinMarks if you link to the progress pyramid
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kevinmarks.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+308) "/* IndieWeb Fellowships */" (view diff)
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@GeekGawk #geek #nerd #gamer: Indieweb and Feeds - Dave Winer: If this article about feeds on the IndieWeb... http://www.geekgawk.com/2014/03/15/indieweb-and-feeds/ #GoogleReader (twitter.com/_/status/446029709185269760)
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kevinmarks.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+154) "/* IndieWeb Fellowships */" (view diff)
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kevinmarks.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+114) "/* IndieWeb Fellowships */" (view diff)
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KevinMarks I have one saved in draft there
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tantek ah, nostalgic CamelCaps ;)
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tantek so I think @GeekGawk may be an ignorant spammer
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KevinMarks WikiWeirdsWords
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tantek investigates
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tantek 438k tweets?!?
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tantek uh no thanks.
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tantek !spammer GeekGawk
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Loqi Got it! There are now 9 spammers blacklisted
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caseorganic KevinMarks: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web
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tantek so who has an iOS device and wants to try contacting me via a web page?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: if you see any edits needed let me know
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caseorganic KevinMarks: very strange, it allowed me to submit
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aaronpk caseorganic: !!! you did it!
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tantek nicely done!!!
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aaronpk "Feedback starts in 1 hour"
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caseorganic there are 639 submissions
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aaronpk that's not that many
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tantek kevinmarks do you have your iPod working?
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aaronpk tantek: i can try
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KevinMarks I do
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KevinMarks what do yo need?
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caseorganic KevinMarks: everyone should vote it up
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KevinMarks is there a special page, tantek ?
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tantek KevinMarks - check your PM
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caseorganic ok, done https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web
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caseorganic upvotes needed, if possible
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caseorganic they call them "applause"
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/446005154437799937/12920742 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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@aaronpk Two great #indiewebcamp submissions for the Knight #newschallenge! https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web ... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/03/18/2/indiewebcamp-newschallenge (twitter.com/_/status/446036426291834880)
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aaronpk just sent 20 "views" to the submission page from that tweet
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aaronpk guessing they're counting pageloads, so all the twitter bots count
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KevinMarks !tell tantek the Fb messenger link threw an exception and crashed on Android
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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aaronparecki.com edited /KinghtChallenge2014 (+3514) "copied content from application" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com moved /KinghtChallenge2014 to /knight-challenge-indieweb-application-2014 "lowercase and fix typo"
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KevinMarks you naught k-nig-hts
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Loqi tantek: KevinMarks left you a message 8 minutes ago: the Fb messenger link threw an exception and crashed on Android
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KevinMarks wow, looks like it's catching
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@benwerd @ricmac We think the indieweb holds promise for the future of the web. (twitter.com/_/status/446040031317078016)
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tantek darn it colloquy crashe
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tantek d
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tantek losing PM logs of course
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tantek heh KevinMarks - crashed Android. oh well ;)
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tantek try updating your FB Messenger app?
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KevinMarks the otehr link worked I think
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tantek did the Skype call link work then?
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tantek I thought I saw a missed call
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tantek KevinMarks reload
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KevinMarks yes, it made a call
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KevinMarks the fb-messenger link gives an error
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KevinMarks the otehr one worked
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KartikPrabhu man, that is a good write-up to come up with in 10 mins!
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Loqi KartikPrabhu: kylewm left you a message 4 hours, 27 minutes ago: set up a mf2py endpoint for my branch here http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url= . you can see the changes from the PR I sent here in the published properties, http://kylewm.com/api/mf2?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F2014%2F075%2Ft1%2Factions-consequences-planning-regardless
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KartikPrabhu i know Loqi!
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tantek ok good to know
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KevinMarks so the exception was probably just java being java
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tantek KevinMarks - there should only be one fb-messenger icon now
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KevinMarks right, but thta one doesn't work
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tantek that seemed to work for Aaronpk on Chrome / iPhone
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KevinMarks the other one did
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KevinMarks (on second attempt)
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aaronpk fb messenger worked for me, facebook app did not
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tantek let me guess - you have the FB app installed but not the FB Messenger app
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KevinMarks no, both
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tantek s/you/KevinMarks
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Loqi tantek meant to say: let me guess - KevinMarks have the FB app installed but not the FB Messenger app
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@kartik_prabhu RT @aaronpk: Two great #indiewebcamp submissions for the Knight #newschallenge! https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web ... http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2014/03/18/2/indiewebcamp-newschallenge (twitter.com/_/status/446041769319231488)
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tantek aaronpk reload
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KevinMarks I use fb messenger to talk to my sons
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tantek KevinMarks - interesting, then maybe that link only works in Chrome / iOS?
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tantek and not in Safari?
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KevinMarks wonder if there is a fb-paper: linke
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tantek also - retry the SMS link
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tantek I took out the "body" param
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tantek which supposedly iOS doesn't support
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KevinMarks on iOS?
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tantek yeah
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KartikPrabhu aaronpk: your twitter cards seem to be not working! The "view on web" link does not show anything.
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aaronpk uhoh!
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KevinMarks now tryign to send to //tantek@tantek,com on android
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KartikPrabhu should implement repost on notes
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tantek KevinMarks - no disclosing addresses in IRC - especially when logged - you know the etiquette ;)
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tantek KevinMarks - just try iOS, n.m. android
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tantek thanks!
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KevinMarks sorry
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tantek iOS Safari
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KevinMarks works but no to:
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aaronpk whoa weird, the "view on web" thing is totally broken
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aaronpk i wonder what changed
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tantek KevinMarks - did you reload?
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tantek on iOS Safari
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KevinMarks did you get the ones via hangouts?
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@bretolius RT @teamidno: Check out our submission for the @knightfdn #newschallenge: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/idno-a-collective-storytelling-platform-that-supports-the-diversity-of-the-web #indieweb http://hello.idno.co/s/4fswb (twitter.com/_/status/446043249048690689)
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tantek KevinMarks - what link(s) activated Hangouts? on what device/browser?
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@nozzlsteve Take back our digital IDs from 3rd parties! A much-needed solution to a broad problem. https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web (h/t @aaronpk) (twitter.com/_/status/446042159033380864)
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tantek KevinMarks do you have the AIM app installed?
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tantek on iOS?
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KevinMarks no
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KevinMarks the txt message link did on android/chrome
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tantek did what?
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KevinMarks it opened hangouts (which is sms too now)
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tantek did Skype ask you to confirm before making the call or did it just do it?
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KevinMarks it sent an mms to your email
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tantek aha
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KevinMarks no, did not confirm
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tantek whoa.
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tantek FaceTime does prompt to confirm
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tantek interesting
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KevinMarks not sure tel: does either
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KevinMarks hello richard
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bret caseorganic: nice work on the writeup! :)
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caseorganic bret: thanks! can you "applause" and comment on what it means to you? might help a bit
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bret i did the applause part
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caseorganic bret: options on the page for that at the bottom
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caseorganic bret++
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caseorganic thanks!
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Loqi bret has 7 karma
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tantek-ipod Tantek is back via iPod
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tantek-ipod So Hangouts app takes over SMS: but fails to support gtalk: !?!
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tantek-ipod (On android)
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KevinMarks looks like it
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tantek Ok I'll pass that along to some fiends who work on it. And then I'll blog it.
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tantek s/fiends/friends
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Loqi tantek meant to say: Ok I'll pass that along to some friends who work on it. And then I'll blog it.
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bret google talk is in a weird state
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bret tantek: gtalk can message aim users though!
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tantek Yeah
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tantek Bret which gtalk app?
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tantek Certainly not Hangouts app
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tantek It can't handle gtalk: urls
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bret tantek: errr at least through the xmpp gateway
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bret i guess my gmail is still using old hangouts
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bret or just 'gtalk'
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bret so confuse
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tantek Web UI then
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bret caseorganic: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web#c-cf9b2d0406020c56599f9a93708832b5
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bret tantek: are you on aim right now?
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tantek_ yes
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caseorganic bret: thank you thank you!
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caseorganic bret++
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caseorganic ben's is awesome, too. really happy two indieweb submissions are live!
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caseorganic ben's: https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/idno-a-collective-storytelling-platform-that-supports-the-diversity-of-the-web
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bret i would really love to see ben and erin get some resources
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bret for idno
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dangillmor idno looks like a great project...
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caseorganic bret: me too
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caseorganic bret: if the fellowship grant goes through ben would be a candidate as one of the recipients
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Loqi benwerd: caseorganic left you a message 1 week, 3 days ago: Thanks to you and Idno for lunch! It's delicious
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Loqi benwerd: barnabywalters left you a message 1 week, 1 day ago: markup weirdness spotted on http://idno.co — there’s an a> after the “Patrons” link
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 3/17 at 4:51pm: when you did start POSSEing photo posts to Twitter? Do you have an example of an early photo post with Twitter POSSE copy?
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benwerd Ah, the "ben hasn't been in the channel for ages" dance.
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benwerd Huge thanks for everyone's support on the News Challenge post btw. Really very much appreciated. All an attempt to work on this stuff full-time!
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tantek benwerd - yay!
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Loqi :D
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benwerd tantek - I hope you had wonderful birthday celebrations last week, too. Sorry I was not able to participate.
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benwerd (Did you get my birthday webmention?)
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tantek benwerd - thanks! Figured you had other obligations.
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tantek still doesn't have a good UI for checking his webmentions in general :/
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benwerd Yeah, I *still* haven't figured out notifications
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benwerd hoping to sort that out
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tantek benwerd - stub page started: http://indiewebcamp.com/notifications
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tantek maybe add it to your to do list on your User page ;) http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Werd.io
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benwerd groovy. and yes!
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werd.io edited /idno (+23) "/* Itches */" (view diff)
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tantek yes!
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benwerd I've been working on web notifications for $dayjob, and they work *so* well on Firefox for Android
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benwerd the combination of server-sent events and web notifications is killer
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tantek anyone have the AIM app installed on iOS or Android?!?
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benwerd no
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tantek DanGillmor ?
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bret aim is so oldschool!
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tantek dangillmor do you have the AIM app installed on your Android?
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bret the aim link on your site is 'invalid' on iOS
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tantek bret - yeah - without the app installed - that's what iOS does
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tantek for any unknown protocols
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tantek it's kind of crap UX on the part of Apple
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dangillmor Not on my phone. I generally do IRC only on my laptop.
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tantek dangillmor *AIM*
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tantek not IRC
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bret i can install it
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tantek bret - cool
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dangillmor tantek: duh. still no.
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tantek so you don't do AIM from your phone then. interesting.
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bret i can aim from my phone, but it goes through irc XD
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pauloppenheim tantek: does anyone use the official AIM client?
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pauloppenheim i haven't seen it for *years*
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tantek pauloppenheim - only on iOS
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tantek on mac I use Adium
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tantek bret - but your irc client doesn't handle "aim:" URLs right?
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tantek otherwise you wouldn't get that error
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benwerd Interesting. I'm Hangout / Facebook only on Android. Actually hadn't considered other IM clients.
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bret tantek: nope ;(
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bret :(*
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bret WhatsCrap
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tantek not going there
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bret loljk
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Loqi lolz
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bret i have to make an account
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bret one sec
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pauloppenheim did you hear that one joke, how many hackers does it take to make an AIM account?
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bret how many?
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pauloppenheim count(#indiewebcamp)
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pauloppenheim or rather, just one, but 93 others to lurk on it, i guess
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dangillmor tantek: i've installed TextSecure for mobile messaging.
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tantek sweet
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bret tantek: did you get that?
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tantek indeed! from what device was that
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bret iphone
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tantek / browser
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bret safari
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bret mobile
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tantek ok so at least that works
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bret can you link to an imessage account?
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tantek I can
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tantek see your PM
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tantek whoa when did we get to 90+ in the channel?
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@schafer42 RT @nozzlsteve: Take back our digital IDs from 3rd parties! A much-needed solution to a broad problem. https://www.newschallenge.org/challenge/2014/submissions/indieweb-fellowships-for-the-independent-and-open-web (h/t @aaronpk) (twitter.com/_/status/446056121451958272)
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KevinMarks2 When we all signed in on multiple gadgets?
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pauloppenheim lol
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pauloppenheim hey man, i'm only in here once now
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jonnybarnes speak for yourself KevinMarks2
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benwerd well, yourself and your clones
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pauloppenheim anyone in here have experience recovering an eCryptFS volume?
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tantek is now signed in only once also
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pauloppenheim nevermind
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pauloppenheim as is usual, asking precedes finding the answer
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tantek Thanks for the testing snarfed aaronpk KevinMarks bret!
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snarfed glad to!
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tantek Some fascinating results
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tantek And this stuff is not well documented.
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pauloppenheim tantek: what are you working on?
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tantek pauloppenheim: http://tantek.com/2014/067/b1/building-blocks-people-focused-mobile-communication
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pauloppenheim tantek: yeah, i recall that. AIM scheme dispatch testing?
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tantek That and more
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pauloppenheim that is awesome, i am sorry that I have not helped more
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tantek It's ok. If you want to try out some of that stuff you can start with an hcard on your home page
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pauloppenheim tantek: i have one already!
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tantek Cool!!
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pauloppenheim tantek: what i really want to do is implement indieauth so you can see more info than is already up there when you log in
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tantek Yes!
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pauloppenheim but that is in due time, work is presently pressing
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/benwerd/446005154437799937/730373 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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tantek The poor ux / handling of unknown / unregistered URL schemes is making me wonder if instead every comm service should simply support a web UI that you can directly link to
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tantek To a link to start a message/call with a specific person
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bear we are exploring that to get xmpp presence out to the web so folks don't have to grok what xmpp:// is
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tantek Eg https://mobile.twitter.com/t/messages
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tantek bear: The problem is that browsers do a horrible job with new schemes
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pauloppenheim tantek: there's a general content-type handling problem on most OSes
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bear yep - that's why we are going to make them active buttons
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tantek What apps handle xmpp: on what OSes?
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bear and have it all done via http
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tantek pauloppenheim: Not true
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tantek Content-type handling is done quite well
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tantek The fallback is you get a file download
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pauloppenheim tantek: right, i mean the OS UX when you try to open a file of an unknown content type
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pauloppenheim tantek: or even known content type with multiple providers and no default
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tantek Whereas with URL schemes you get a cryptic jargon error
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tantek Even on iOS
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bear yep
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pauloppenheim tantek: the "open with" pattern that most OSes now use is a good workaround, but Android's no-default-intent-handler popup might be a better hack
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pauloppenheim tantek: it's not too bad on firefox
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bear it's not fun at all when the instructions are all about "open your browser config… make 3 entries… open your OS registry…"
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tantek Bear I agree, all with http until browsers figure out a better ux for handling unknown schemes
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pauloppenheim "The address wasn't understood
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pauloppenheim Firefox doesn't know how to open this address, because the protocol (asdf) isn't associated with any program.
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pauloppenheim You might need to install other software to open this address."
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bear at least with Firefox on OSX I get a dialog to open iChat for xmpp:// - on chrome it just does a google search :/
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pauloppenheim which of course is better than just opening gedit like gnome-shell / nautilus does...
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bear nods and cries
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bear wanders off to find a beer
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snarfed cheers bear!
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bret you know whats even more anoying? when safari opens mail.app when you accidentally click on a feed link
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pauloppenheim may the beer staunch the tears, bear
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tantek Bear what about on mobile?
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tantek Bret that's hilarious
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bret its pissing me off