#indiewebcamp 2014-02-03

2014-02-03 UTC
squeakytoy, edrex_proper, jancborchardt_, sdboyer_, mueslix, reidab and mko joined the channel
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@fdevillamil A great piece about #indieweb: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (twitter.com/_/status/430248435879772160)
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@benwerd RT @fdevillamil: A great piece about #indieweb: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (twitter.com/_/status/430254223175868416)
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@jasim_ab RT @fdevillamil: A great piece about #indieweb: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (twitter.com/_/status/430257513036926976)
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@dmsr #webdev https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention ★'d pfefferle's pfefferle/wordpress-webmention A WebMention plugin for WordPress @GitHub (twitter.com/_/status/430269031212658688)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+187) "/* Taproot */ linked to taproot/archive, reordered some libraries" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Taproot (+117) "/* Roadmap */ added article mentions to done, audio posts to next-up" (view diff)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: @benwerd has offered handmade art with a twist: write an #indieweb reply (like this) & send a webmention. I want one! (ttk.me t4UL1) (twitter.com/_/status/430351998513606656)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: much #IndieWeb Bridgy & #IndieAuth progress! Come to 6:30pm Homebrew Website Club in SF & Portland TONIGHT: http://tantek.com/2014/029/t1/indieweb-progress-bridgy-indieauth-homebrew-tonight (twitter.com/_/status/430352000828854272)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: going to @benwerd's Introduction to the IndieWeb talk late http://werd.io/2014/introduction-to-the-indieweb had another event before. (ttk.me t4UB2) (twitter.com/_/status/430352008735105024)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: Reminder: Homebrew Website Club meetup TONIGHT 18:30 @MozSF @ESRIPDX http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club and http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight (ttk.me t4U55) (twitter.com/_/status/430352025172590593)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: @adactio @jkphl no inferred p-author. Even better, there's the page authorship building block: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (ttk.me t4U51) (twitter.com/_/status/430352035901624320)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: First Homebrew Website Club meetup this year is in one week 2014-015 18:30 both @MozSF @EsriPDX http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (ttk.me t4Ty1) (twitter.com/_/status/430352051068231680)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: @ericnakagawa more validators welcome! Check out: http://microformats.org/wiki/validators Especially: http:///validate-h-entry/ #indieweb (ttk.me t4Tw1) (twitter.com/_/status/430352062128619521)
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Loqi [@DhemillyV] RT @t: 2013 #indieweb pieces: IndieAuth comments webmention events Bridgy
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Loqi 2014 together invincible. ♫ http://vimeo.com/40111334 (ttk.me t4Tu1) (http://twtr.io/hhCJM7gnSx)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: @chloeweil a-ha you do have replies! Awesome! Next may I suggest reply-contexts and webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context (ttk.me t4Ts6) (twitter.com/_/status/430352080835207168)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: @chloeweil well deserved! Long way since @indiewebcamp 2011. For 2014 add @-replies to your site like this ... http://tantek.com/2014/002/t5/add-replies-your-site (twitter.com/_/status/430352083385327616)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: & #indiewebcamp veterans: Post notes on your site instead of or before Twitter. Like @chloeweil http://chloeweil.com/blog/hipster (ttk.me t4Ts4) (twitter.com/_/status/430352087206330368)
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@DhemillyV RT @t: Easy #indieweb 2014 resolution: Post more on your site than Twitter, FB, etc. Like @neilhimself http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2013/12/where-did-i-go-out-what-did-i-do.html (ttk.me t4Ts3) (twitter.com/_/status/430352089706151936)
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@jkphl @SuVeLu Newsletter: Unbedingt! Workshops: naja, wer's braucht. Aber @odladm am Mittwoch, und v.a. IndieWebCamp am Do. +@synthbox (twitter.com/_/status/430374446768349184)
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aaronpk anybody else having weird issues connecting to freenode yesterday and today?
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aaronpk my server for some reason can't resolve irc.freenode.net right now
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peat aaronpk: Yeah, they're seeing a DDOS. :(
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aaronpk oh ok
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EHLOVader aaronpk, if you add regional ones to your list
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EHLOVader or just use a regional one
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EHLOVader http://freenode.net/irc_servers.shtml
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aaronpk oh yeah i should probably do that
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EHLOVader nickserv will also probably take about 10 minutes to identify
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EHLOVader or do anything
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EHLOVader hmm, I wonder why frats and sororities haven't jumped on the international unicode domain name thing yet
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EHLOVader some are already taken
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EHLOVader but I bet a person with ill intent could take all of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_social_fraternities_and_sororities
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EHLOVader and register it as a shortener/hold them hostaage
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EHLOVader the hell is with delta t
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neuro` Piece of advice: use the ipv6 network if you can, apparently the DDOSers don't know about ipv6 yet (maybe a Win XP botnet or something like this)
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peat heh
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EHLOVader lol
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EHLOVader didn't do the frat thing
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EHLOVader but apparently the Panhellenic conference is the smaller list of most popular social frats
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EHLOVader there are 26 of those
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EHLOVader so for around $600 (probably more like $500 for the ones already registered) you could secure all the international domains for greek orgs
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EHLOVader and try to get them to use a shortener service and profit from ads, or reselling rights to orgs
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EHLOVader seems like it would be tricky, but I could see many people using it because of how short and personal it might be
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EHLOVader and now I have shared everything in the public irc logs, my whole plan
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EHLOVader :-/
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EHLOVader do you sometimes redact things? ever? no need here, I don't want to throw money at that
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@kevinmarks http://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb Superbowl ad? Thanks, Squarespace. (twitter.com/_/status/430407291603390465)
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@sandeepshetty RT @fdevillamil: A great piece about #indieweb: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (twitter.com/_/status/430407933948461056)
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@OhhSocialMedia RT @kevinmarks: http://www.youtube.com/ #indieweb Superbowl ad? Thanks, Squarespace. (twitter.com/_/status/430408023505633280)
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Loqi benwerd: tantek left you a message on 1/30 at 3:32pm: - hmm - tried sending you a webmention for your handmade post and it didn't seem to show up: http://tantek.com/2014/030/t1/handmade-art-indieweb-reply-webmention-want
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Loqi adactio: snarfed left you a message on 1/31 at 1:58pm: we're discussing the webmentions that brid.gy sent to your site here: http://adactio.com/journal/6663/#comment-container . feel free to read logs and weigh in!
hober, ryana, gRegorLove, KartikPrabhu, tantek, eschnou, j12t, bret and cweiske joined the channel
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tantek !tell gRegorLove had another thought re: dates from webmentions: receivers of webmentions should keep track of when a webmention for a URL was *first* received (CREATE) and *most recently* received (UPDATE), and may use that instead of (or with) the explicit dt-published / dt-updated respectively. E.g. perhaps some heuristic could be used to determine timezone for dates without timezone, using the webmention absolute time(s).
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk, barnabwalters, benwerd, snarfed, also as webmention receivers (and writers of code that handles as much), do you only use the dt-published from the parsed h-entry, or do you use other information (e.g. webmention received time on your server) ?
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tantek barnabywalters ^^^
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benwerd I use time received as a fallback
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tantek what triggers that fallback?
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barnabywalters pretty sure I do too, I’d have to look at my code though
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benwerd if for some reason it doesn't find the timestamp (NB: I just changed a bunch of code, and I think right now it's _always_ falling back)
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snarfed pfefferle wrote the wm handling code i use. looking at it, he prefers dt-published, then falls back to dt-updated, but doesn't use receive time.
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barnabywalters although I suspect that, long-term, using date received is likely to be the only sane solution
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aaronpk i do the same as benwerd
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barnabywalters because people are going to lie about it
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tantek aaronpk - what if you receive partial information? e.g. a dt-published without timezone?
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snarfed if/when i get to sending updates in bridgy, i'd hope to see more people look at dt-updated, since i'll be setting that appropriately
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aaronpk although i am currently sorting by date received, which gives weird results
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aaronpk i think im' only looking for presence of a dt-published, not verifying it. it's pretty rudimentary
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snarfed barnabywalters: out of curiosity, what's the harm in letting senders specify their timestamps, even if they lie?
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tantek barnabywalters - indeed, they *could* lie about it, but if the dt-published is "close enough" to the webmention received time, then it's probably accurate.
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barnabywalters snarfed: set it to an early datetime and get to the top of the comment thread
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aaronpk you can see some weird results here http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices
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gRegorLove tantek: What I'm implementing currently is tracking whether or not a timezone is in the dt-published. If it's not, I keep track of that and use UTC.
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barnabywalters people *love* getting to the top of pages on the internet
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Loqi gRegorLove: tantek left you a message 6 minutes ago: had another thought re: dates from webmentions: receivers of webmentions should keep track of when a webmention for a URL was *first* received (CREATE) and *most recently* received (UPDATE), and may use that instead of (or with) the explicit dt-published / dt-updated respectively. E.g. perhaps some heuristic could be used to determine timezone for dates without timezone, using the webmention absolute time(s).
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aaronpk (might need to hard-refresh my site since i'm apparently not setting cache headers properly on CSS)
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snarfed barnabywalters: eh. true. i kinda say, let's cross that bridge when we come to it
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aaronpk snarfed: no pun intended?
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snarfed aaronpk: lol
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gRegorLove Haha
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barnabywalters snarfed: agreed, that’s why I’m naively trusting the microformats data for the moment
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tantek snarfed, barnabywalters - it may not be intentional, but rather the result of a (temporary) coding error
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Loqi awesome
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snarfed i definitely biased, since bridgy is a concrete use case for non-now timestamps
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barnabywalters tantek: that is possible too
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tantek barnabywalters - how do you handle dt-published without timezone?
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barnabywalters tantek: taproot remains blissfully ignorant of timezones
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gRegorLove I also believe I will display webmentions in chronological order they were processed by me, instead of the dt-published from the content.
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aaronpk if I don't get timezone info then I believe I assume UTC. (less than ideal)
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benwerd gotta admit, I just stick it through strtotime()
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barnabywalters at some point I’m going to have to fix that
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tantek barnabywalters - uh, so you assume all datetimes are in UTC even when specified as in other timezones?!?
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barnabywalters tantek: IIRC floating timezones will be assumed to be UTC, otherwise explicit timezones are respected
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barnabywalters I punt it to PHP’s datetime implementation right now
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barnabywalters and will fix it manually wherever it proves inadequate
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gRegorLove Which defaults to the server's timezone, unless your PHP code explicitly sets it otherwise.
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tantek ok so that's an underspecified hole that is resulting in inconsistent / suboptimal implementations
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tantek (how to handle dt-published etc. without TZ)
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aaronpk (first thing my php code does is set the server timezone to UTC)
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aaronpk yes, timezones are hard
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tantek so here's a concrete suggestion (looking for implementation difficult feedback/pushback)
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gRegorLove Good idea, aaronpk
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aaronpk KevinMarks: thought you might get a kick out of this: https://www.dropbox.com/sc/sumtxnqt3hy9e4z/Bkb8XPOq7- (probably shouldn't share that too publicly) :)
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KevinMarks hah, very nice
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tantek if dt-published (etc.) has unspecified TZ, either use earlier TZ knowledge of that domain (if that site is pretty consistent about even the implied TZ of posts), or lacking that, if the dates matchup, assume dt-published happened in the hour before the webmention received time, and compute implied TZ accordingly.
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barnabywalters tantek: that sounds like a sane heuristic
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KevinMarks what's that quote? You can tell if someone is a programmer if they shudder or get angry when you mention timezones
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snarfed heh, true
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snarfed tantek: as long as we're honoring the tz when it is there, that heuristic sounds fine to me too
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tantek snarfed - yeah, that entire heuristic block is conditional on the initial test of "if dt-published (etc.) has unspecified TZ"
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snarfed dt-updated too. i'd definitely encourage more people to look at that
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KevinMarks technorati stored all it's data in local pacific time because Dave didn't notice that problem, aaron
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tantek snarfed yes. hence "dt-published (etc.)" :)
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snarfed in practice i doubt we'll see cases where one has a tz but not the other, but i do plan to gradually use and push dt-updated more
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snarfed great!
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tantek snarfed, even with explicit datetime with tz, it may merit some sanity checking with webmention received time.
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tantek though I don't have a concrete suggestion yet
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snarfed yeah. i'm reluctant, since bridgy obviously sends so many of those that are days or weeks old
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KevinMarks I used to pin it to received time if it was in the future
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snarfed but if it's far enough down the fallbacks, sure
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tantek snarfed - one could whitelist certain domains that way too, like bridgy, or like bridgy's specific silos.
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snarfed sure, yeah
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tantek barnabywalters, snarfed, thanks for the implementation perspective sanity check. now to see how hard it is for you guys to implement it - or is it reasonable enough to be worthy of writing up on the wiki as an a priori suggested approach?
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snarfed sure, go for it! maybe leave a !tell for pfefferle too, he probably has as many people running his code as any of us
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barnabywalters agreed, a write-up on the wiki will give us something concrete to test against
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gRegorLove Sounds like a good idea, tantek.
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@galetrail #indieweb @kevinmarks: test (twitter.com/_/status/430431517412954112)
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KevinMarks noterlive users yay
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snarfed KevinMarks: totally!
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snarfed the agony and ecstasy of real users :P
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aaronpk oh hey I got #newnewnewtwitter today
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gRegorLove #new^3twitter
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j12t Hey everybody, next week is #TheDayWeFightBack, and I'm thinking it wouldn't be a bad idea to remind some reporters likely to write about it that Indie Web exists, and why it matters.
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j12t Anybody willing to help"
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j12t ?
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barnabywalters j12t: what is the #dayWeFightback?
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j12t http://www.reddit.com/r/thedaywefightback/comments/1uwmkb/the_day_we_fight_back_february_11th_2014_plan/
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j12t https://thedaywefightback.org/
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j12t I'm thinking lots of stuff will be written about it, and in the larger picture, a writer might well also talk about Indie Web.
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tantek.com edited /web_hosting (+152) "/* Static hosted domain solutions */ subheads for each provider, main page links" (view diff)
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@ricmac RT @caseorganic: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. #indieweb http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (a post about data ownership on @Svbtle and … (twitter.com/_/status/430459515637886976)
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tantek.com edited /GitHub (+632) "link github pages instructions and guides" (view diff)
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@tasselflower RT @caseorganic: A not so Svbtle reminder to own your words. #indieweb http://www.gregoryciotti.com/own-your-words/ (a post about data ownership on @Svbtle and … (twitter.com/_/status/430460322261270528)
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