#indiewebcamp 2014-01-15

2014-01-15 UTC
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aaronpk also there's always the neat trick of using 3/4 fake MX records that route to a server that doesn't respond, and spam servers will just stop trying but real mail goes and tries the other MX answers
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pdurbin aaronpk: you sound not so sure ;)
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aaronpk about SPF?
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aaronpk actually yeah that is totally DNS only because I've had to update DNS settings to allow amazon SES to send mail from my domains
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pdurbin that's better ;)
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@peterjanes Wow, this is horrible (and still ongoing): http://www.rootsmusic.ca/sonicbids-fail-plus-tips-for-alternatives/ #music #fail #ownyourdata @shawnacaspi (twitter.com/_/status/423245103222640640)
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tantek scrolls up and notices aaronpk's ping about rel values
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tantek micropub_endpoint is ugly and stinks of user-unfriendly programmer naming thinking
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aaronpk :) I've got my finger on the trigger, just say the word
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tantek something XML people would come up with
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aaronpk i think that is quite likely the case
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tantek or worse, Java
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tantek sees the email provider discussion
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aaronparecki.com edited /micropub () "(-731) use rel="micropub"" (view diff)
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tantek and wonders about /email
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tantek aaronpk, note also rel="hub" is what PuSH uses. not "hub_endpoint" nor "push_hub_endpoint" or any other namespaced garbage
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aaronpk wiki page updated and indieauth client updated
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aaronpk that's a great example, thanks
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bear \o/
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bear for what it's worth, email is one of the few "just don't run your own" services even for me
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bear dkim, spf, spam traps, greylisting… all just much nicer to spend $10 a month and let someone else deal with it
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bear hmm, and it's not even $10 a month anymore
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tantek bear - I noticed you added a bunch of good info to the /email page
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bear yea, I was updating my server and in that groove… so wiki edits were at the top of my brain
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tantek I'm a little confused though - How To Accept Inbound Email and As a server daemon as section headings seem more jargony than the flat structure we have going on on the /web_hosting page
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tantek i.e. on web_hosting, we have: http://indiewebcamp.com/web_hosting#Services_by_Type
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tantek and then a flat list of sections - which seems easier to browse
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tantek any chance we can do something similar in /email ?
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bear not sure what I would use to replace "As a server daemon" ...
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bear but I get your point
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tantek start with replacing "How To Accept Inbound Email" with "Email Services by Type" perhaps
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tantek and then figure out how to reorganize everything below that into a flat series of sections
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bear k
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tantek "roughly ordered from easiest/cheapest/friendliest to most powerful/technical. "
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tantek like even the equivalent of "Custom domain silos" would be "Custom domain email providers" and include things like * Gmail - which lets you set it up so it receives and sends as if it is your own domain
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tantek etc.
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bear yep, working on it now
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tantek great
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tantek the general idea of documenting the spectrum of ways to use your own domain for email is quite valuable to indieweb folks
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bear.im edited /email (-13) "/* How To Accept Inbound Email */" (view diff)
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bear quick edit to get what your suggesting into place
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tantek nice
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pdurbin bear: hear hear on the don't run your own email thing
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bear :)
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aaronpk yeah I only run my own email server so I can quickly set up forwarding aliases and new domains, but everything funnels to my gmail account which is where I actually read everything
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aaronpk I read the "how to set up postfix with virtual users and mysql and blah blah" uttorial on howtoforge once long ago and have been running that server ever since :)
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bear I use mailroute -> postfix -> dovecot -> thunderbird
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bear using mailroute makes setting up postfix *so* much nicer
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tantek those kinds of notes could really help people out who are considering solutions
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tantek do those fall into any of the existing categories in http://indiewebcamp.com/email#Email_Services_by_Type ?
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jonnybarnes I'm just sticking with fastmail for the moment
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bear I was just thinking about how to add the info to the wiki
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jonnybarnes secure connections from all my devices
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tantek e.g. for each "type" subsection, there should be a note about "IndieWeb community members using this approach: "
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jonnybarnes only downside for me is no PGP support
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tantek which will help illustrate which approaches are more real world than others
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bear working on some additional info for the different mail types
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bear including scenarios as an intro piece
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tantek.com edited /email (+989) "/* Email Services by Type */ add Custom domain email providers as an initial subsection with example of gmail" (view diff)
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tantek bear - just added the mail type I suggested - the equivalent of Tumblr, which is essentially what gmail is
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tantek scenarios?
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bear ah - I see what your were saying
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tantek more important to just document *actual* types in use by indieweb folks
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tantek rather than theoretical scenarios
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bear yea, I was going down a rabbit hole
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tantek jonnybarnes how does fastmail work? is it free?
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tantek how do you configure it to use your personal domain for receiving/sending to/from?
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tantek.com edited /email (+15) "/* Gmail */ main" (view diff)
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tantek bear - yeah - avoid those theoretical rabbit holes - they're not really worth documenting because they're not what people care about when they're trying to set something up that works
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bear.im edited /email (+177) "mailroute" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes tantek: I think I can do what I do because I'm on a paid tier, you get a username@fastmail.fm account, which is itself free, and once you point you MX records to their servers for your domains, then you can set it up so that blob@domain.com goes to your fastmail.fm inbox.
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jonnybarnes you can also reply to an email from any address you've configured
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bear.im edited /email (+269) "adv/disadv entries" (view diff)
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aaronpk oh! I remember now... I got the "authorization_endpoint" and "token_endpoint" names from OpenID Connect
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aaronpk http://openid.net/specs/openid-connect-discovery-1_0-21.html#ProviderMetadata
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tantek so is fastmail freemium? is Mandrill?
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tantek aaronpk - sheesh - is OpenID Connect even implemented/deployed by anyone? I was pretty sure it was a dead end.
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bear fastmail has plans from $10 to $120
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jonnybarnes.net edited /email (+200) "/* Custom domain email providers */ adding fastmail" (view diff)
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aaronpk really? I thought it had more adoption than, say, OAuth 2.0 discovery drafts
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tantek besides they can't even decide on their method for namespacing. e.g. openid.server with a "." for namespacing
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tantek aaronpk - do we know ANYONE that uses an OpenID Connect ID?
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bear OpenID is going to suffer a big drop in usage once MyOpenID closes down
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aaronpk yeah, google is doing it https://developers.google.com/accounts/docs/OAuth2Login
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tantek aaronpk - Google is not a person
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aaronpk openid connect is really an identity layer on top of oauth, which is what everyone wanted oauth to be anyway
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aaronpk I mean I'll make stuff up all day long, I just figured it'd be better to base this off of current implementations
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tantek Google implements/deploys all kinds of crap that never gets any actual adoption. Or sees a brief spike and then gets neglected and shut down.
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tantek implementations without actual users are worthless
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tantek well, *nearly* worthless
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tantek I suppose they can work as proof of concept prototypes
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aaronpk http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10488973/openid-connect-providers
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bear.im edited /email (+292) "fastmail details" (view diff)
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tantek providers != users
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aaronpk well there can't be any users until there are providers
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tantek provider - singular
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tantek so there's over a dozen listed there - anybody (any humans) using any of them ever?
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aaronpk I can't find any examples
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tantek right - so until otherwise proven, all of those providers fail the selfdogfood test
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aaronpk all I was pointing out is where I got the names "authorization_endpoint" and "token_endpoint". I didn't have any other better ideas for the names anyway.
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tantek yeah totally!
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bear.im edited /email (+182) "add Pobox" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes thanks bear for the email edit
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bear yw
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tantek aaronpk - I guess I was questioning the naming abilities of folks who evangelize/deploy providers without pointing any actual users, especially the folks working on the providers themselves.
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bear groking now what t meant - having the more common (and useful) email examples up top makes more sense
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aaronpk ah
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aaronpk I am actually much happer with the rel=micropub name, that makes a lot of sense
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aaronpk I don't see any real issues with "token_endpoint", since it's pretty descriptive of what it is, and "token" doesn't really cut it.
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jonnybarnes my country makes me proud at times http://i.imgur.com/wd3NbJk.jpg
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tantek oh dear what happened there
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jonnybarnes the bus was redirected due to an accident or something
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jonnybarnes and the new route had a bridge that was too low
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bear ouch
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tantek ouch++
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Loqi ouch has 1 karma
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tantek lol
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jonnybarnes what I love most is theres a sign on the bridge as well http://goo.gl/maps/kojy7
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bear removes "stub" reference from email page
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bear.im edited /email (-10) "removed stub flag" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.lahtela.com/hueman-theme-google-authorship/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry (pingback)
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KevinMarks aaronpk: there is the Account Chooser stuff that was done with openid connect: http://accountchooser.net/developers
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KevinMarks doesnt look like anyone has touched it in a year though
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KevinMarks though google login is looking more like that now
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aaronpk oh yea.. where did I see that first?
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aaronpk and who ended up using it anywhere?
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KevinMarks not seen much uptake. Tim Bray was evangelising it at IIW https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2012/11/28/AccountChooser
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KevinMarks google's ownsite version is the default now: https://accounts.google.com/AccountChooser
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JonathanNeal Is there ARIA role or similar attribute that identifies a link as being to the current page, like one would find in a navigation menu?
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snarfed u-url?
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snarfed JonathanNeal: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-entry
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snarfed depends on whether you're producing or consuming though. mf2 isn't exactly widely adopted yet
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JonathanNeal snarfed: that's a clever solution.
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snarfed really? i don't know about clever so much as it's just the spec :P
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snarfed but thanks!
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JonathanNeal Well, I hadn't considered bringing microformats into the picture.
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JonathanNeal I never think of microformats when it comes to things like navigations or articles.
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@ehafen Peter Suter: Zweiklassenmedizin verhindern - Debatte Nachrichten - NZZ.ch http://www.nzz.ch/meinung/debatte/zweiklassenmedizin-verhindern-1.18221051 Outcome-based Medizin durch #ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/423347242158661633)
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Jihaisse Hello
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@glennjones @snarfed_org yes looking at webmentions next, the importers part a bigger project, some of which maybe open sourced down the line. #indieweb (twitter.com/_/status/423412362176368640)
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glennjones.net edited /POSSE (+363) "/* IndieWeb examples */" (view diff)
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glennjones.net edited /webactions (+180) "/* Action tag examples in the wild */" (view diff)
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@franatique @flexewebs here is a jumpstart to get you started on the #indiedata stuff http://indiewebify.me/ (twitter.com/_/status/423433886757289984)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /personal-domain (+348) "/* Why */ added brian’s anecdote about Sveinbjörn.[org|com]" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /personal-domain (-1) "/* Examples of domains being used IRL for disambiguation */ corrected domain" (view diff)
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jonnybarnes barnabywalters: is there an actual quote somewhere you could link to?
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jonnybarnes so that when you click Brian Suda you go to the source
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@Emmairl @BillCorbett I keep sayin' it and sayin' it - Own Your Data! Now the cloud OWNS Manahattan! Wall Street! Broadway! Heavens! #OwnYourData (twitter.com/_/status/423498955121377280)
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barnabywalters jonnybarnes: that’s the first time it’s been published on the web AFAIK
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barnabywalters I might be able to get Brian to publish it on his own site
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barnabywalters but IWC.com isn’t wikipedia, original material is okay
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@t @adactio @jkphl no inferred p-author. Even better, there's the page authorship building block: http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (ttk.me t4U51) (twitter.com/_/status/423538614857789440)
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@jkphl @t Yep, that's is exactly what I knew and what I implemented into the webmention parsing on my site — and what's failing on @adactio's site (twitter.com/_/status/423543899148124161)
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andysylvester.com created /User:Andysylvester.com (+241) "Created page with "Andy Sylvester Aerospace engineer doing software development in the Portland area http://andysylvester.com Projects Working on adding IndieWeb features to my website and narr..."" (view diff)
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@AndySylvester99 @aaronpk I can't come to the Homebrew Website Club tonight, but would like to participate, just made userpage at http://indiewebcamp.com (twitter.com/_/status/423550127475675136)
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kevinmarks.com edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+86) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/comment/twitter/t/423538614857789440/423550317758664704 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/snarfed_org/423550127475675136/139199211 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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sparverius so i guess hwc is tonight
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aaronpk indeed!
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snarfed hell yes!
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snarfed we should spam social media more today
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Loqi agreed.
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aaronpk i've been so bad about posting things online recently
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snarfed i heard we might have an nyc contingent tonight too…?
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snarfed or am i imagining it
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sparverius well i cant go
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sparverius which really sucks (for me)
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aaronpk aw too bad!
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bret sparverius what about in two weeks? :p
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bret aaronpk looks like obensource and edrex might make it https://twitter.com/bretolius/status/423369042271797248
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aaronpk oh nice!
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sparverius bret: absolutely yes
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/feed_reader (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/indieauth (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/site-deaths (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-14/line/1389690247 (pingback)
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snarfed re posting online, tag aaronpk, you're it :P
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@snarfed_org Homebrew Website Club is tonight! 6:30PM PST at @MozSF and @EsriPDX. Join us! http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/423586870144942080)
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peat Aww dang, wish I could attend.
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@peat RT @snarfed_org: Homebrew Website Club is tonight! 6:30PM PST at @MozSF and @EsriPDX. Join us! http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (twitter.com/_/status/423587477924745216)
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snarfed :P we'll miss you peat. next time!
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/snarfed_org/423586870144942080/423587477924745216 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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peat :)
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aaronpk snarfed: awesome post!
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tantek.com created /events/ (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /events/ (+0) "r" (view diff)
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snarfed thanks aaronpk!
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bret I know there are free ssl options, but why, in general, do SSL certs cost so much? Don't wildcard certs for subdomains cost a significant ammount?
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/423538614857789440/18299065 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship (webmention)
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bret bridgy is so cool
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snarfed thanks bret!
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snarfed sorry for the webmention spam here in irc
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aaronpk partially my fault
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aaronpk tho if anyone wants to go send a pull request to webmention.io i'm all ears :)
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snarfed aaronpk, do you know what you would change? just switch to using u-url? or something more?
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aaronpk yeah, primarily sending the u-url value in IRC
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aaronpk but also eventually parsing the page for things like u-like or u-repost and rendering the txt as "@t favorited a post that linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship"
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snarfed ooh true
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aaronpk but just using u-url would be a good start
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/like/twitter/t/423586870144942080/11628 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (webmention)
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tantek yes, great post snarfed!
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tantek haha bridgy is faster than my typing
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snarfed thanks tantek!
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snarfed lol good
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snarfed it's using twitter streaming api for RTs as well as favorites now
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snarfed i tried doing replies that way too, but it didn't fully work right, so back to polling. ah well
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tantek looks like we're going to get it on air.mozilla.org as well
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snarfed oh wow, nice!
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aaronpk tantek: let's connect a little early to try to sync up the video again, yes?
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tantek which means both live broadcast worldwide and recorded for later viewing (unless folks object I guess)
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bear that will be very nice for us remoties
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tantek aaronpk - we can try - I don't suppose you use Vidyo do you?
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aaronpk haven't heard of it
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aaronpk ah, no, we have a cisco thing
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tantek it's the software we run to do the video connecting
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tantek just runs on a normal computer
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aaronpk can I install it on a computer here? or do I need a mozilla account?
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tantek that's a good question or two
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tantek finds https://wiki.mozilla.org/Vidyo
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aaronpk "However, non-employees can take part in such meetings using a guest URL"
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tantek this sounds interesting
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tantek I wonder if the Vidyo client is free?
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aaronpk it might prompt me to download it if you send me a meeting URL
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tantek is investigating.
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snarfed good old ryana. anyone here use adium and know how to hide nickname changes?
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snarfed i've looked and tried a few times, but failed so far
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bear isn't it Display → Show Join/Leave Messages. Unchecking "Show/Join Leave Messages"
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snarfed that's join/leave, not nick changesa
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snarfed sadly
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bear oh - sorry
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@t Reminder: Homebrew Website Club meetup TONIGHT 18:30 @MozSF @ESRIPDX http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club and http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight (ttk.me t4U55) (twitter.com/_/status/423604747325964288)
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@kevinmarks RT @t: Reminder: Homebrew Website Club meetup TONIGHT 18:30 @MozSF @ESRIPDX http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club and http://snarfed.org/2014-01-15_homebrew-website-club-tonight (ttk.me t4U55) (twitter.com/_/status/423605431336828928)
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Loqi [mention] https://brid-gy.appspot.com/repost/twitter/t/423604747325964288/423605431336828928 linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (webmention)