#indiewebcamp 2014-01-03

2014-01-03 UTC
#
tantek
snarfed - I think by the statement she meant that for her purposes, she built Twitter.
#
tantek
or at least the original Twitter - which was "just" a note posting site.
#
tantek
or feature
#
tantek
and I think that framing is totally reasonable
#
tantek
for anyone to say "I built Twitter" means the 2006 version of Twitter - that's a perfectly fine bar for indieweb sites
#
tantek
and hence I'm challenging the folks who have been here for a year or more to do so :)
#
snarfed
i guess. the vision and challenge, definitely, i'm there
#
snarfed
the article intro…eh. i guess it just didn't work for me. to the average reader, it's such an overstatement, and so context-free, that the confusion detracts from her message
#
snarfed
but maybe her regular readers will be more used to it
#
tantek
I think it's reasonable to ask those of us who have been talking the talk for over a year to walk the walk of tweeting from/at their own website
#
snarfed
definitely! it just took me a while to understand that meaning, and i've been hanging around indieweb for a while.
#
snarfed
anyway. i'll stop picking nits :P
#
tantek
heh. and she was at the very first IndieWebCamp in 2011 in Portland!
#
tantek
as adactio's apprentice even
#
tantek
awesome
jchivers joined the channel
#
bret
yeah she did a really good job on her site
#
tantek.com
created /events/2013-11-20-homebrew-website-club (+215) "stub and notes on how to backfill this page"
(view diff)
edwardasykes joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club (+344) "add Previously section"
(view diff)
paulcp_ joined the channel
#
tantek
so far we have three folks publishing indie events posts: http://indiewebcamp.com/event
#
tantek
is anyone else considering this or working on it? I am, but the design and coding has been taking me longer than expected. My notes so far: http://indiewebcamp.com/Falcon#event_posts
#
tantek
but just like we have text note fallbacks for RSVPs (which I do implement), has anyone considered text note fallbacks for event posts?
#
tantek
especially with invitations?
#
tantek
I think benwerd did invitations in one of his events but I can't find it: http://indiewebcamp.com/event#Invitations
#
tantek
I think in a text note equivalent could just use cc: @… etc.
tommorris joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /event (+131) "add benwerd example with invitations"
(view diff)
hugoroyd_ joined the channel
#
@shawnokeefe
RT @t: Easy #indieweb 2014 resolution: Post more on your site than Twitter, FB, etc. Like @neilhimself http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2013/12/where-did-i-go-out-what-did-i-do.html (ttk.me t4Ts3)
(twitter.com/_/status/418904646480973827)
#
the_merlin
oh hey! hello benwerd
#
benwerd
howdy! :)
hadleybeeman joined the channel
#
the_merlin
so I'm a tad confused - took a look at the site and it looks like it's for one specific event, but you're advertising other events (including the homebrew website meetup) on the same site?
#
the_merlin
^ tantek perhaps?
#
benwerd
indiewebcamp.com is really (has become?) an umbrella site for the whole indieweb community, rather as well as the thematic events
#
benwerd
kind of the wikipedia of indieweb
caseorganic joined the channel
#
benwerd
down to this conversation already being in it.
#
tantek
"wikipedia of the indieweb" :)
#
tantek
the_merlin - there are event-specific pages on the site yes
#
tantek
and then it links to pages of a more general sort
#
tantek
on the broader indieweb topic
rknLA joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /event (+1460) "/* Design Brainstorming */ add a POSSE section with some thoughts on where and how to POSSE"
(view diff)
CheckDavid joined the channel
#
tantek
tommorris - does OSM have a field for venues for a Twitter account that is *unique* for that venue?
#
tantek
1:1 correspondence that is
#
the_merlin
ah-haaaa thanks for the infoes :)
#
bret
the_merlin, how did you make your way here?
#
tantek
tommorris - e.g. @MozSF is unique for the Mozilla *San Francisco* office
#
tantek
as is @MozPDX for the Mozilla Portland office
#
tantek
but for example @PapaloteSalsa has two locations and thus wouldn't qualify / work for this.
#
tantek
just wondering if OSM has solved this problem or not (e.g. with custom tags/fields), and if not, considering trying to solve it
snarfed joined the channel
#
the_merlin
bret: tantek shot me a link to the homebrew website event
#
bret
right on :) welcome and you should totally come, its fun!
fmarier joined the channel
#
the_merlin
danke! I'll try!
#
@teamidno
Idno will be at the Homebrew Website Club at Mozilla on January 15th. You should come too! http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2014-01-15-homebrew-website-club #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/418912563699519489)
#
tantek
nice!
#
bret
no way, is that going to be a multi-user idno powered website?
#
tantek
I would suspect as much
caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek
Hmm - I would have expected this to be an RSVP post: http://hello.idno.co/2014/idno-will-be-at-the-homebrew-website-club-at-mozilla (but it looks just like a note)
#
rkn.la
created /User:Rkn.la (+14) "Created page with "http://rkn.la/""
(view diff)
#
benwerd
tantek: point taken - you're right, I didn't use an RSVP when I should have
#
benwerd
aaronpk: yes it is, once I've implemented & integrated IndieAuth
#
tantek
benwerd - well, it's an interesting data point it is
#
tantek
I'm thinking UI flow details
#
tantek
was there just barely too much cognitive load to think to switch it from a note to an RSVP that it didn't happen?
#
tantek
I wonder if need to some sort of eventiness detection of notes and then further detect whether it is an event or an RSVP post and then offer to switch the type accordingly
#
aaronpk
tantek: my UI does exactly that :)
#
tantek
benwerd - whoa the URL is invisible until I hover over it: http://hello.idno.co/2014/idno-will-be-at-the-homebrew-website-club-at-mozilla
#
benwerd
yeah, I'm mucking about with the CSS
#
tantek
aaronpk - WHOA that is cool. Definitely need a screenshot or something of that.
#
benwerd
if you hard refresh that should go away
#
aaronpk
it's pretty subtle in the UI, but works well
#
benwerd
aaronpk: that is super-neat
#
tantek
a-ha - that potentially makes it even easier
#
aaronpk
it parses the reply URL and looks for an h-event and if it finds one, sets the type to an rsvp and prompts me to select yes/no/maybe/other
#
tantek
if the page is about an event (e.g. top level microformat is just one h-event) then that could be used to imply event/RSVP post
#
tantek
aaronpk - you beat me to it!
#
tantek
that's awesome
#
benwerd
I do that with my Firefox Social API stuff, but not with the main UI, which is silly. Nice work! Will try and catch up tonight
poppy joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvp (+263) "/* Aaron Parecki */ note implementation of autosuggest for RSVPs (as noted in IRC)"
(view diff)
#
tantek
aaronpk - is this about right? want to add any more details? http://indiewebcamp.com/rsvp#autosuggest
#
aaronpk
that about sums it up!
#
tantek
aaronpk - do you have to explicitly choose "reply" in your UI? Or if you just happen to paste in a URL to an event into a note does p3k handle that too?
#
aaronpk
there's no "post type" option if that's what you mean. There's a field for the reply URL, and if there is nothing there, then it's a note. otherwise it's a reply or RSVP
#
tantek
ok so p3k does not try to parse a URL in the note field then? only in the reply URL field?
#
aaronpk
interestingly, since i'm almost done with my indieauth todo list (http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-12-30/line/1388444098) I will actually be able to allow others to sign in to p3k and use my posting interface to create content on their own site
#
aaronpk
tantek: correct, no parsing of URLs in the note field
#
tantek
in that case - not sure that would have helped benwerd - as it looks like he just pasted the event URL into the one text field
#
aaronpk
ah! right, his wasn't a reply
#
tantek
the extra overhead of having to think that it's a reply might sometimes be just too much for someone to remember to do
#
bret
looks like your writing a reply /clippy
#
tantek
especially since RSVP == a "reply" is not totally obvious to the non-French speaking ;)
#
aaronpk
hah I didn't even think about that
#
aaronpk
actually that brings up an interesting thing I"ve been struggling with too
#
tantek
bookmarks? ;)
#
tantek.com
edited /rsvp (-9) "/* autosuggest */ upgrades replies"
(view diff)
#
aaronpk
sometimes I've felt awkward posting an RSVP as a reply, such as in benwerd's case, he was really posting a note about the event which happened to say he was going
#
@t
@chloeweil well deserved! Long way since @indiewebcamp 2011. For 2014 add @-replies to your site like this ... http://tantek.com/2014/002/t5/add-replies-your-site
(twitter.com/_/status/418919612173266944)
#
tantek
aaronpk - how is "a note about the event which happened to say he was going" not an RSVP?
#
tantek
physical RSVPs were actual notes that people sent about an event
#
tantek
in fact, many (most?) wedding RSVPs are still notes
Loqi joined the channel
#
aaronpk
weirdest restriction on a username: "It cannot contain nine or more numbers."
#
tantek
which site?
#
aaronpk
wells fargo
#
tantek
oh - to prevent use of phone numbers?
#
tantek
or prevent use of account number as username
#
aaronpk
both of those seem likely
#
aaronpk
same restriction on the password
#
tantek
I'm willing to bet people were trying to create user names with their account numbers not realizing that's a huge security risk
#
KevinMarks
Wells Fargo used to require you to use your social security number as username
#
aaronpk
lol oh yeah I remember that... some other bank I used to use did that too
#
KevinMarks
So they may be trying to stop that now
squeakytoy, caseorganic and skinny joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /reply-context (+17) "/* See Also */ webmention"
(view diff)
#
tantek
welcome back Loqi
#
Loqi
who, me?
#
aaronpk
i want to archive all those so I have them after tumblr is gone
#
tantek.com
edited /reply-context (+141) "Notifications webmention"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
edited /reply-context (-5) "/* Notifications */"
(view diff)
#
tantek
interesting that chloe is using Twitter status ids for her permalinks
#
tantek
on replies
#
tantek
hmm - why didn't Loqi get that tweet? https://twitter.com/t/status/418934460051382272
#
Loqi
https://twitter.com/t :: @chloeweil a-ha you do have replies! Awesome!
#
tantek
mentioned both indiewebcamp and webmention ;)
#
@t
@chloeweil a-ha you do have replies! Awesome! Next may I suggest reply-contexts and webmention http://indiewebcamp.com/reply-context (ttk.me t4Ts6)
(twitter.com/_/status/418934460051382272)
tantek, squeakytoy2, snarfed and skinny joined the channel
#
@djp1974
RT @t: Easy #indieweb 2014 resolution: Post more on your site than Twitter, FB, etc. Like @neilhimself http://journal.neilgaiman.com/2013/12/where-did-i-go-out-what-did-i-do.html (ttk.me t4Ts3)
(twitter.com/_/status/418943082076184576)
bnvk, CheckDavid and skinny joined the channel
#
poppy
that was my resolution 2 years ago
#
poppy
turns out i just stopped putting things on the internet for the most part
squeakytoy, Loqi, melvster, igalic and KevinMarks joined the channel
#
aaronpk
this post http://aaron.pk/m4Tsvp5 was created from my new indieauth-enabled iphone app! https://github.com/aaronpk/PushupCounter-iOS
squeakytoy and mcepl joined the channel
#
snarfed
oh wow, nice!
cweiske joined the channel
#
aaronpk
it's coming together!
pfenwick, squeakytoy2, melvster, squeakytoy and bear joined the channel
#
@kartik_prabhu
#Memory: I was once accused of not having a web-presence 'coz I didn't have an account on #Orkut! #Irony: Posted on #Twitter #indieweb
(twitter.com/_/status/419006355572129792)
pfenwick, tantek, KartikPrabhu1 and KartikPrabhu joined the channel
#
@Brironic
@aaronpk I don't think StackOverflow supports OpenID 1. Will IndieAuth support OpenID2?
(twitter.com/_/status/419010244522430464)
#
@aaronpk
@Brironic I'm able to sign in to stackoverflow just fine, did you encounter an issue with it? #indieauth (http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/02/1/indieauth)
(twitter.com/_/status/419011792866508800)
#
@aaronpk
@Brironic Now I'm confused. Are you on IRC? Might be easier to continue the discussion there... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2014/01/02/2/indieauth
(twitter.com/_/status/419013299036901376)
KevinMarks, LauraJ, eschenal, mcepl, schalkneethling, glennjones, pfenwick, igalic, adactio, melvster, barnabywalters, BjornW, CheckDavid, bnvk, pasevin, snarfed, eschnou, tantek, jchivers and jchivers_ joined the channel
bpayton joined the channel
benwerd joined the channel
#
tantek
that thread is getting pretty hilarious
#
barnabywalters
csvconf.com not transmitted as text/csv
#
tantek
barnabywalters - I don't see any mediatype information: http://web-sniffer.net/?url=http%3A//csvconf.com/
#
barnabywalters
perhaps not, but they’ve included a <style> element in the body
#
barnabywalters
so the source isn’t actually csv whatever the media type
#
tantek
oh I didn't view source. odd.
#
barnabywalters
didn’t know about web-sniffer.net, that’s handy
#
tantek
maybe that's their hack for sending CSVs to browsers - just append that inline style sheet at the server when sending the file
#
tantek
too bad csv doesn't have a comment syntax that could comment out the style sheet ;)
#
tantek
(from csv parsers)
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
tantek
barnabywalters - even more handy than web-sniffer.net is the one-click favelet for it that I wrote:
snarfed joined the channel
#
tantek
barnabywalters see: favelets.com
#
tantek
under Learning / HTTP in the column
#
barnabywalters
DHTML! there’s a term you don’t often hear
#
tantek
barnabywalters - indeed, I've left the deliberately dated copy there. page/site was created in 2001-09-07.
#
tantek
(history at bottom)
#
barnabywalters
that’s a nice little blob of history
#
ShaneHudson
Talking about history... what do you all think of changing design for old content? I know the bbc, tantek and zeldman all do a good job of keeping the old designs active for old content
Acidnerd joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson
Should I attempt to do that, bearing in mind I'm using Wordpress?
#
tantek
ShaneHudson - I used to - since 2010 the designs have been mixed
#
tantek
since the style sheets were snapshotted to the year, but the markup is now all "live" generated by the latest Falcon
#
tantek
which has often required backcopying current year style sheets to previous years
#
tantek
I haven't figured out a system for year-specific style sheets and templates - though it's theoretically possible.
#
tantek
(and that's the direction Falcon is heading in)
#
ShaneHudson
Mine wouldn't be so much year based as use this theme for the dates between this and this, use current for others
#
tantek
well year-based is just one case of " use this theme for the dates between this and this"
#
ShaneHudson
Not sure if there is any point, but I like keeping a good archive
#
ShaneHudson
yeah true
#
tantek
and the simplest to build (for me and my permalink structure)
benprew joined the channel
#
tantek
I used to change my "themes" monthly for a while
#
tantek
selfdogfooding various bits of CSS as we worked on the specs and browser implementations for them
#
barnabywalters
tantek: “theme” referring to CSS+JS+HTML?
#
ShaneHudson
Oh right, that makes sense :) I'm thinking about redoing mine in flexbox but I might wait a few months before I do a major overhaul on design
#
tantek
though the markup was reasonably stable
#
snarfed
ShaneHudson: fwiw, each time i've migrated servers/designs, i've applied the new design to old posts, and i'm always glad i did later
#
tantek
part of the challenge was to keep changing the CSS while the markup stayed the same
#
ShaneHudson
currently focusing on content and content navigation, currently mine is awful for that
#
tantek
the opposite is much harder
#
tantek
keeping the CSS the same while changing the markup
#
ShaneHudson
Yeah, since I am using Wordpress that isn't so much of a problem as the theme handles the markup and style, I would do a major change in a new theme
#
ShaneHudson
Though not actually tried it to see if it is possible to use both haha
#
snarfed
yeah. plus, you want to expect to change server software every ~5y or so, and designs maybe more often, which means you'd end up maintaining N old designs
#
Loqi
hahahaha
#
snarfed
not sustainable
jacook joined the channel
#
ShaneHudson
yeah that's true
#
snarfed
plus, when i've changed things, i usually like the new design better anyway, so i kinda want it to apply to old posts too
#
tantek
snarfed, the "server software every ~5y or so" is an interesting wrinkle
#
ShaneHudson
I've been planning to move to Ghost but better off staying on Wordpress for now since I know it so well and don't have much time
#
tantek
you could always export static pages for your current software before switching to the new
#
ShaneHudson
Still want to get web mentions working, never fixed the problem I had trying to make the plugin
#
snarfed
tantek: yup! i actually started out keeping posts in text files in version control with a little html and markdown, and that's survived pretty much intact across three very different servers
#
tantek
snarfed - re: "apply to old posts too" to me the look & feel of the old post has so many associative memories with it, like the cover/style of an old book, that I prefer to keep the old styles.
#
snarfed
…similar to everyone's)
#
snarfed
tantek: definitely understood. glad we each get to make the choice ourselves! :P
#
tantek
snarfed - ideally I'd like to provide *both*
#
snarfed
ShaneHudson: definitely! are you using pfefferle's? i'm on an old version, but i might be able to help
#
tantek
the originally published styling, and whatever "current" styling I'm using
#
snarfed
tantek: ahhhh great idea. i keep old screenshots for the same reason, but fully usable old styles would be even better
#
barnabywalters
well, with microformats+HTML templates and archives of CSS that could be quite easy…
#
tantek
I'd provide the old style for direct permalink access - to me permalinks are way of linking to the past.
#
barnabywalters
provided all your previous content was marked up with microformats
#
snarfed
right! my old ones were tied up with the server software, but using (or exporting to) pure html/css is easier
#
barnabywalters
just parse the older version and render it into the latest version
#
tantek
and then whenever the posts showed up in list views (search results etc.), new style (and if you clicked through also)
#
tantek
with then an option to view the post as originally published.
#
tantek
barnabywalters - that's exactly the approach I'm taking with Falcon and my pre-Falcon blog archives :)
#
barnabywalters
tantek: cool! really looking forward to seeing that in action
#
tantek
me too :)
#
tantek
in the theme of "what am I still (or more) using FB for" and more far off future indieweb thoughts - anyone have any ideas about the indieweb equivalent of "Group" pages?
#
tantek
it's easy to say, oh that should just be a business opportunity for an aggregator, and you can post on your own site and webmention to send it to the group.
#
tantek
but I'm also thinking about not wanting to lose all the content in groups I'm part of, not just the stuff I personally post.
#
barnabywalters
so, is a group a shared tag?
#
tantek
I think that could be a good start
#
tantek
group posts are often group-only readable
#
tantek
so there's issues of ACLs
#
tantek
or even *delegated* ACLs
#
barnabywalters
but then you have joining and moderation stuff, which is difficult
#
tantek
i.e. I post something semi-private that I say anyone in this "group" can see, including people that join the group in the future.
#
barnabywalters
tantek: in what case have you wanted to do that?
#
tantek
I was just copying a URL :)
#
tantek
and noticing that it looks like everything in group is public. interesting.
#
tantek
oh *except* for photos!
#
tantek
which I think require either login or membership to see - and otherwise you get the broken image icon and alt text!
#
tantek
oh nm - just image loading problems. ctrl-reloading the specific images seems to fix them.
paulcp joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
so in this case (wanting to post something to a group which is public to anyone who looks at the group) the actual desired effect is for it *not
#
barnabywalters
s/*not/not to be visible in listings on your own site
#
Loqi
barnabywalters meant to say: so in this case (wanting to post something to a group which is public to anyone who looks at the group) the actual desired effect is for it not to be visible in listings on your own site
#
barnabywalters
apart (maybe?) from people logged in to your site who are also in the group
#
tantek
I'm not sure about that either
#
tantek
posting to a group is kind of like an @-reply in that regard
#
tantek
rather, posting to a *public* group
#
tantek
you may want it sometimes visible on your own site
#
tantek
even Twitter has the "All" and "No replies" links/switches on profile pages
#
barnabywalters
it’s often nice for outsiders to be able to see that kind of stuff, so that they can become insiders if they want
#
tantek
I show @-replies on my home stream, others do not
#
barnabywalters
unless it gets overbearing
#
barnabywalters
and clutters up your “main” stream
#
tantek
right, depends on how you use @-replies, too heavily and you get clutter
#
tantek
it looks like noise to those not in the conversation
#
benwerd
Waking up on this: there are ad-hoc groups (eg hashtags) and explicit groups (eg forums). My take on the latter is for someone to be the "host" of the group, and allow others to log into it / post from their own interfaces using applicable APIs like the one aaronpk's been working on.
#
barnabywalters
equally, if people can’t see the conversation they can’t join in, which can be abad thing
#
tantek
and I do admit my own practice of always showing all my @-replies makes me consider the public viewing context when writing replies
#
benwerd
The former really needs some kind of search
#
barnabywalters
tantek: likewise
#
barnabywalters
benwerd: like a indiewebcamp.com/commons?
#
tantek
barnabywalters - although in general I think I've adopted that mindset - even in public mailing lists where only a few people "normally" see it - I expect that anyone anytime could cite a public URL
#
tantek
so anyone *could* read a public "group" post, so you have to assume anyone may
#
tantek
even if it doesn't show up in everyone's streams realtime
#
barnabywalters
tantek: to a certain extent that even applies to private content, depending on whether or not you trust the recipient(s) not to copy/paste private content into a public area
#
tantek
benwerd - the "someone to be the "host" of the group" feels problematic too though
#
benwerd
barnabywalters: not sure. naively kind of wish that PuSH had a history feature, so you could "scroll back" on anything that had been pushed to a hub
bnvk joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
benwerd: rel=prev on a h-feed?
#
benwerd
tantek - depends on the context, I think. agree that in some cases it's problematic, but eg, if I'm hosting a group to plan a party, that's probably ok
#
tantek
barnabywalters - yes - to a certain extent. However, then you can speak with the context that if a private recipient does propagate it, they may incur some personal social consequences for doing so.
#
tantek
benwerd - it works for personal events yes
#
tantek
I don't think it works for community things
#
barnabywalters
point is, security is a computer problem, privacy is a human problem
#
benwerd
tantek - agree, and here we're getting into the realm of group ownership / distributed responsibility, which is interesting in itself
#
tantek
barnabywalters - heh, most security problems these days turn out to be human interface problems ;)
#
barnabywalters
with all the fuzziness and inconsistency that carries with it
#
barnabywalters
tantek: heh, true
#
tantek
benwerd - re: "realm of group ownership / distributed responsibility, which is interesting in itself" sure - it can be "interesting", or we can just copy the UX models of successful group hosting silos - e.g. FB
#
benwerd
not just for groups but for anything. "these people can post to / edit / change rights on this feed"
#
tantek
that's the point, we don't have to reinvent the UIs for this stuff
#
tantek
but if we came up with simple "indie groups" that worked close enough to how FB groups work - we (and others) could easily use them with minimal cognitive overload / dissonance.
#
tantek
I'm using FB groups as a "good example" in contrast to say G+ Communities, or Google Groups, or other examples of bad group UI
#
benwerd
tantek - totally agree, but there's still the added case of where the content lives (which is what I meant by "hosted" - it's stored on one person's server in that case). that's what I mean by the interesting part.
#
tantek
benwerd - I think the question you're asking is, where is the canonical copy of the conent
#
tantek
content
#
benwerd
exactly that
#
tantek
because of course this is all copied back/forth from personal permalinks via webmention ;)
#
benwerd
right, totally. but does the canonical copy live on the site that created the group, or ..?
#
barnabywalters
so the closest thing we have to this at the moment is probably indienews
#
tantek
barnabywalters - I'd rather reverse engineer a working UI (e.g. FB Groups) than try to incrementally build up from something that doesn't work like a group.
#
tantek
benwerd - the indie answer to the "canonical" copy is whoever created that particular piece of content
#
tantek
yet for my own purposes, just like we're talking about having personal indie readers, I want personal indie groups that live on my site as copies of the group activity happening elsewhere on others' sites
#
barnabywalters
tantek: was referring to the canonical copy thing, where on indienews it’s the creator’s copy
#
barnabywalters
off for sushi, bbiab
#
tantek
I don't want to go to a different site to do "group" things, just like I don't want to go to a different site to do "reading"
#
benwerd
right, so if I create a group, it lives on werd.io or wherever I chose to create it. I can then allow other people access not just to post to it, but also to invite other people and (eg) add other people as admins so they can change its behavior. copies can exist, and members interact on their own sites, but they're always pinging back to that original version
#
benwerd
definitely agree. it shows up in your own space, you interact with it on your own terms.
#
tantek
benwerd - well we're talking about two different things there
#
tantek
creating a group vs. joining a group
#
tantek
it's "joining a group" that to me resembles the indie reader use case
#
tantek
where I want to be able to interact with a group without having to visit wherever the group happened to have been created
#
benwerd
I totally get you, and agree. I just also think that, for example, FB groups are made more valuable by those other membership activities. I'd argue that posting, joining and inviting should all be possible in your own reader interface. Ideally administering and toggling membership permissions (if you have the ability), too.
pasevin joined the channel
#
tantek
I think the URL that the canonical group lives at is important
#
tantek
the domain that is
#
tantek
and not having to have that be a personal domain
#
tantek
and yet - there's the problem of shutdown vulnerability
pasevin joined the channel
#
benwerd
so you could have sites that are *just* groups. would make sense
#
benwerd
you could sling one up for a conference, for example.
#
tantek
I think admins for such "indie groups" must have another ability given to them, the ability to recreate the canonical URL of the group, from their own indie copy of the group
#
benwerd
effectively reposting / repointing a group
#
tantek
so an admin of an indie group would commit to always have a copy of everything in the group, copied to their own indie domain
#
benwerd
makes sense for all indie content too: being able to say, "hey, this object now lives over here"
#
tantek
well I'm not sure I want to generalize to that
#
benwerd
and have references in users' reader interfaces adapt accordingly
#
tantek
as that's much harder general problem
#
tantek
which is why I'd prefer to scope it to just the group problem and see if it's possible to even solve it for that
#
benwerd
right, but it seems like if we can make the mechanism for groups, we can walk back to the general case
#
benwerd
they're not unrelated
#
tantek
we may be able to yes
#
tantek
I'd just like to avoid it as an initial constraint/consideration
#
benwerd
makes sense
#
tantek
groups are hard. they're the main reason that Messina proposed the hashtag in the first place.
#
benwerd
Yes. I've built them a bunch of different ways, and don't particularly like any of them.
#
pdurbin
tantek: what do you like about facebook groups vs. google groups and google+ communities?
#
tantek
even FB has *two* ways of doing groups
#
tantek
pdurbin - google groups is a disaster of a UI - I'm sorry if that's not obvious I don't want to waste any time on it (it's that bad)
#
pdurbin
yeah, a disaster. I agree
glennjones joined the channel
#
tantek
google+ communities are mostly slow as crap (bad JS devs), and super bulky / spacey in design (wasteful)
#
tantek
actually most of G+ is slow as crap
#
tantek
and I mean in relative terms - compared to FB
#
tantek
regardless of browser, device, etc.
#
pdurbin
hmm, I mostly used google+ from my phone. and communities seem fine. I'm not a big fan of the non-mobile UI for google+
benwerd_ joined the channel
#
tantek
right they had to write a non-web-app because they couldn't figure out how to build an efficient web experience
#
pdurbin
I don't use facebook much... only have a fake account... haven't tried their groups feature
#
tantek
OTOH the FB mobile site is incredibly efficient and effective (even better than their iOS app)
#
tantek
I resisted using FB groups out of principle, but when I saw how easily so many people are able to interact with them, and with high signal to noise, then it made me take notice.
#
tantek
both FB actual "groups" and "pages" work like groups - different flavors
#
pdurbin
tantek: have an example of a facebook group you like? maybe something with a tech focus?
#
tantek
nothing with a tech focus no
#
tantek
it's the non-tech groups that I've found interesting - appealing to a more diverse set of folks with differing interaction expectations
#
pdurbin
any public groups? or do they all require logging into facebook?
#
tantek
I posted one earlier
#
pdurbin
scrolls
#
pdurbin
"free hugs"
#
tantek
oh but the price is high - and your muscles feel it for days
#
benwerd
I think the analogy of a feed you can join sits well with me
#
benwerd
Fb effectively does that (groups are a variation on the personal profile) and it allows a lot of the same techniques to be re-used. I also like the idea of adding delegated, granular CRUD permissions to *any* feed, which is something I might play with.
#
tantek
also interesting - that example of NPSF - that's actually a FB "page" - and yet it is functioning quite well as a group
#
tantek
more interesting: anyone (with login) can "Like" the group (thus "joining" it), and then "comment" or post things to the group - and yet - it doesn't get spammed.
#
tantek
unlike say Twitter, where anyone (with login) can post a hashtag (thus "joining" it), and then comment or post things to it - and gets spammed - A LOT
#
tantek
so what's going on there?
#
tantek
or am I just missing obvious examples of FB pages/groups that get spammed?
#
benwerd
I've definitely seen them get spammed
#
benwerd
But you can moderate them
#
pdurbin
tantek: censorship ;)
#
benwerd
That happens much less easily with hashtags (you can mark a user as spam, but there's no "owner" of a hashtag)
#
tantek
pdurbin - so hashtags have no admins - is that what you mean?
#
tantek
and yes Twitter's spam handling is horrible
#
pdurbin
my expectation is that hashtags are uncensored
#
tantek
(as in doesn't seem to really take any effect in the UI)
#
pdurbin
this very channel could get spammed... I'm glad it doesn't :)
#
tantek
pdurbin - sure, and we have a few admins since we registered the channel
#
tantek
here's another theory for FB groups vs. Twitter hashtags -
#
tantek
posting to a FB group is a very deliberate thing, you have to go to a different page/URL to post to it
#
tantek
posting to a Twitter hashtag is incidental, you merely mention it
#
tantek
it may be a case where having a more explicit UI (slight barrier) actually helps
#
pdurbin
google+ adds hashtags without you even asking
#
tantek
and G+ hashtag search is pretty crappy. well, as is FB hashtag search to be fair.
#
tantek
Twitter's search has at least improved considerably in the past year
#
pdurbin
i have pretty good luck finding old posts on google+ ... it's one reason I use it
#
tantek
interesting - as my experience has been it's been difficult to find old posts on G+ - especially those I've commented on
#
pdurbin
oh, well, I only post publicly
#
pdurbin
anyway, I like the idea of indiegroups or whatever
#
pdurbin
how can you own your group? host mailman on your domain? run a forum on your domain? run discourse on your domain?
#
tantek
public indie groups are a good place to start. clearly public groups "work" for some set of use-cases - as illustrated by https://www.facebook.com/NovemberProjectSF
#
pdurbin
yeah, public ftw
#
tantek
I think a group that works and survives isn't "owned" by anyone, it's owned by all the members and perhaps recreatable by the admins
squeakytoy joined the channel
#
pdurbin
yeah, owned by whoever is renting the domain I mean, I guess
#
tantek
so I do not think hosting a group on your own domain makes sense. for events yes (as benwerd points out), but not for persisting groups
#
tantek
pdurbin - right, there is the question of how to create / share / use / maintain a domain for a group
#
pdurbin
sorry, i meant your group's domain... http://groups.indiewebcamp.com
#
tantek
sure - that could be a good starting place for experimentation
#
tantek
and then groups that wanted to split off to their own domain could do so
#
pdurbin
of course I'm reminded of this... Groupware Bad - http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html :)
#
tantek
love that post
#
tantek
tl;dr - "new calendar server project" that dooms it right there ;)
#
tantek
and this gem: "Groupware" is all about things like "workflow"
#
tantek
and this: because there was going to be absolutely no buy-in from the "itch-scratching" crowd.
#
tantek
I'd forgotten that bit of that post, will have to use that as a way to debunk proposals in the future - "no buy-in from the itch-scratching crowd"
#
tantek
(I mean, we're all one big itch-scratching crowd here, right? ;) )
#
tantek.com
created /group (+528) "stub with a few things, pointers to IRC, jwz post"
(view diff)
#
snarfed
i know it's sticking my neck out a bit, but i have to admit, that jwz post follows something i personally think is a broader antipattern
#
snarfed
grass roots stuff like indieweb tends to focus on consumer usage, which is great! except when it leads us to think that's the only usage that matters
#
snarfed
yes, enterprise, workflow, etc are incredibly boring and dinosaur-ish…but they're real needs for big orgs
#
tantek.com
edited /group (+39) "capture indie group phrasing"
(view diff)
#
tantek
barnabywalters, benwerd, pdurbin - here's an attempt at a start to capture some of this on indie groups, please add more http://indiewebcamp.com/group
#
snarfed
it's totally ok if we don't care about them and don't build for them. but they do exist, and it is ok for other people to build stuff for them…and even for us to occasionally accept good ideas from them
#
snarfed
anyway. done w/my rant. :P
#
tantek
snarfed - I think it's better to create software that alters big org cultures
#
tantek
than attempt to create software that matches existing big org culture
#
tantek
pretty sure that's the perspective where jwz's disdain for "enterprise" comes from
#
snarfed
for some things, definitely
#
tantek
and not just software, devices, services
#
tantek
the larger point being
#
tantek
enterprise actually fails at innovation
#
tantek
(in their own tools)
#
snarfed
sure, but innovation is only one goal. it's not necessarily what all orgs should be trying to do
#
tantek
and you need enthusiasts (e.g. Homebrew Computer Club) to invent the PC to displace the minicomputer/mainframe
#
tantek
to provide the tools that enterprise will eventually adopt
#
tantek
not the tools they think they need
#
snarfed
some enterprises, yes, but not all. e.g. gov't and military are two examples where creating products, innovating, etc aren't their jobs, and hierarchical approvals, workflow, etc may be ok
#
snarfed
there are lots of kinds of orgs out there, with different needs. we don't have to serve them all, but it's ok for other people to!
#
tantek
sure people should work on what they want to
#
tantek
I think jwz's point is that it's a likely waste of time
#
tantek
especially in terms of adoption
#
tantek
i.e. indie/consumer innovations often get adopted by enterprise
#
tantek
but not vice versa
#
tantek
so it makes sense to start indie/consumer
#
tantek
even if you're eventual goal is enterprise
#
tantek
s/you're/your
#
Loqi
tantek meant to say: even if your eventual goal is enterprise
#
tantek
snarfed re: "leads us to think that's the only usage that matters" - right, that's a good way of phrasing the problem
#
snarfed
yeah. i guess i'm just sensitive to overstatement. jwz literally says, if you're making a calendar for enterprise, your use case should be, how does a 22 yr old use your software to get laid. pretty ridiculous.
#
tantek
it's not the only usage that matters, just the first usage that matters. the others can come later and be built upon it. user/individual first, group/hierarchy/management second.
#
snarfed
but overstatement is good at getting a message across and making people think
#
snarfed
agreed. we're probably in violent agreement at this point
#
tantek
yes - it's classic jwz overstatement style to make his point.
edwardasykes, barnabywalters, eschnou, benwerd, tantek, CheckDavid, paulcp and jchivers joined the channel
#
KartikPrabhu
damn! missed barnabywalters by 2 mins
edwardasykes joined the channel
#
tantek.com
edited /group (+1070) "see also hashtags, and braindump contrasts between groups and hashtags"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /Hashtags (+21) "r"
(view diff)
#
tantek.com
created /Hashtag (+22) "r"
(view diff)
benwerd joined the channel
#
pdurbin
phew! done shoveling (lotta snow in boston)
#
pdurbin
!tell tantek nice "group" writeup
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
dvirsky joined the channel
#
pdurbin
!tell barnabywalters you mean you aren't going to http://dhtmlconf.com ? ;)
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
tantek joined the channel
#
Loqi
tantek: pdurbin left you a message 34 minutes ago: nice "group" writeup
#
tantek
thanks pdurbin. please feel free to edit/correct/expand
#
tantek
also it would be good to capture your positive experience with G+ somehow
#
tantek
pdurbin you noted that based on the way you use G+, you're able to easily find old posts
#
pdurbin
t'is true
#
tantek.com
edited /Google+ (+194) "stub a Searchability section"
(view diff)
edwardasykes, dvirsky_ and barnabywalters joined the channel
#
Loqi
barnabywalters: pdurbin left you a message 18 minutes ago: you mean you aren't going to http://dhtmlconf.com ? ;)
#
barnabywalters
pdurbin: LOL
schalkneethling joined the channel
#
tantek
haha - so good
#
barnabywalters
KartikPrabhu: RE no p-name, it’s because that validator is currently very focused on notes rather than named posts
#
KartikPrabhu
aah i see! good to know
poppy joined the channel
#
christopheducamp.com
edited /selfdogfood-fr (+4493) "[fr: translation sync'd with original]"
(view diff)
#
christopheducamp.com
edited /selfdogfood-fr (-4) "[fr ''Ce contenu a démarré sur [[selfdogfood]]'']"
(view diff)
#
christopheducamp.com
edited /selfdogfood-fr (+73) "[fr: sync with original : section voir aussi ]"
(view diff)
paulcp joined the channel
#
tantek
Great post Ryan! http://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond Really like the prune & batch suggestions. Absolutely right about minimizing context-switches. Blogged about pruning a little over 10y ago: http://tantek.com/log/2003/04.html#L20030421t1700
#
snarfed
thanks tantek!
icco joined the channel
#
tantek
snarfed - just tried sending you a webmention for that comment and got a 400 Bad Request {"error":"no_link_found"}
#
snarfed
hmm, looking
#
snarfed
what was the source url?
#
snarfed
oh from irc!
#
tantek
aside: barnabywalters - awesome that you're keeping an uptodate deployed version of indiewebifyme. would be nice if you were able to deploy to indiewebify.me also!
#
tantek
the fact that we have such a nice h-entry validator at all is incredible
#
barnabywalters
tantek: indeed, I need to sort it out with bnvk
#
barnabywalters
tantek: thanks! we have various improvements in the pipeline
#
tantek
I bet he's too distracted with working on email ;)
#
barnabywalters
distraction^2
#
snarfed
my webmention plugin's mf parser isn't finding the h-entry. whee. added to my todo list. thanks for the nudge.
#
snarfed
hah, distractions, agreed
#
tantek
snarfed - which parser are you using?
#
snarfed
not sure. i use pfefferle's wordpress-webmention plugin with minor tweaks
#
snarfed
looks like mf2. may be an old version.
#
tantek
hmm - that should be PHP which should just be using barnabywalters' parser
#
tantek
pdurbin - sounds good - go for it - feel free to edit the IWC G+ page directly
edwardasykes joined the channel
#
snarfed
pfefferle rewrote the plugin, and i haven't upgraded yet, so it's on me. thanks for the nudge.
#
pdurbin
hmm. RelParser::InsecureRedirectError at /auth/start
#
barnabywalters
snarfed: where’s the h-entry not being found? http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388788648?
#
barnabywalters
but there’s no *link*, only the URL in plaintext
#
snarfed
i'm sure i'm using an old version of mf2
#
snarfed
and the client side code that looks for it is complicated: https://github.com/snarfed/wordpress-webmention/blob/master/webmention.php#L391
#
barnabywalters
because it’s marked up as p-content not e-content
#
snarfed
i doubt it's worth debugging this too much, though. i should spend that effort upgrading to pfefferle's new code instead.
#
tantek
barnabywalters - good catch. I think it should be using e-content. ping aaronpk
icco joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
especially with the new e-* parsing rules, there’s no particular reason to use p- for content any more
#
snarfed
ah, agreed, good catch
#
barnabywalters
as the p- parsed version will always be available
#
tantek
indeed
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
thinking of abandoning the whole /notes /articles /music URL thing and just having posts, which can be navigated in chronological order, by “type” or tag
#
tantek
!tell aaronpk there's a rough consensus that the indiewebcamp IRC archive h-entry markup for individual lines should be using e-content instead of p-content: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388789951
#
Loqi
Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
#
tantek
barnabywalters - that doesn't like abandoning, just rewriting the backend
#
tantek
as in, presumably you'd keep the URLs working to produce the same result, as you say, "by 'type')
#
tantek
sounds like you're saying you're thinking of *adding* "just having posts, which can be navigated in chronological order"
#
tantek
it would be interesting to hear your reasoning as to why you're considering this switch/addition
#
barnabywalters
tantek: yeah, that could be a good evolutionary way of looking at it. maybe draw some inspiration from flickr for variously scoped previous/next navigation, e.g. prev/next “thing”, prev/next thing *of this type*
#
tantek
my prev/next post nav buttons came from the 2012 era version of flickr.com :)
#
barnabywalters
reasoning is: currently there’s too high a barrier to adding new types of things to post, and too much to maintain
#
tantek
pdurbin - that's not a very nice error message
#
tantek
pdurbine - which auth provider did you try with IndieAuth that gave you that?
#
aaronpk
pdurbin: can you tell me how you got that? I've heard that one come up a couple times, but I thought it should be giving a better HTML error with a description
#
Loqi
aaronpk: tantek left you a message 4 minutes ago: there's a rough consensus that the indiewebcamp IRC archive h-entry markup for individual lines should be using e-content instead of p-content: http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2014-01-03/line/1388789951
#
tantek
possibly Twitter? if so, your home page needs to link to https://twitter.com… not just the http: version
#
tantek
found pdurbin's home page via /irc-people :)
pasevin joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
wishes colloquy could easily be extended to make /name a shortcut for http://indiewebcamp.com/name
#
aaronpk
doesn't colloquy have a plugin system?
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: not that I was aware of, but maybe
#
aaronpk
so with e-content, can I include HTML entities now?
#
aaronpk
ah yes, this looks good now
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: the new e-parsing rules allow consumers to see properties as the original HTML or the content parsed as if it was a p-* element, i.e. “safe”
#
barnabywalters
so you can put whatever you like in e-*
#
tantek
aaronpk - numerical entities preferred
#
barnabywalters
aaronpk: looking good!
#
aaronpk
tantek: hm what's the php function for that?
#
barnabywalters
tantek: why? xml compatibility?
#
aaronpk
it's using htmlspecialchars now
#
barnabywalters
htmlentities() possibly, though that might use named ones for some things
#
aaronpk
this one? php.net/mb_encode_numericentity
#
tantek
actually scratch that, just use UTF8
jchivers joined the channel
#
tantek
I find htmlspecialchars tends to overencode thing
#
tantek
things
icco, benwerd and caseorganic joined the channel
#
tantek
digs up his cassis function for this
#
tantek
oh nm - htmlspecialchars is good to go for this use case
#
tantek
cassis.js just reimplements in JS so it can be used "natively" in either PHP or JS :)
caseorga_ joined the channel
#
barnabywalters
it would be so cool if github could link to language symbols e.g. function or class names
#
tantek
yeah - they should get their own HTML IDs!
#
benwerd
love that. and then if references in the code would link to the definitions .. full-blown IDE territory, but, man.
#
tantek
HTML IDE
#
benwerd
I haven't really played with any of the actual HTML IDEs (except for 5 mins with Cloud9) - anyone else?
#
tantek
those are all more JS IDEs than HTML IDEs
#
tantek
I don't think anyone has actually tried to build an HTML IDE
#
tantek
(an IDE that uses HTML, not an IDE *for* HTML)
#
tantek
benwerd you had mentioned some posts about various indieweb things sounding crazy - was that on twitter or?
KevinMarks joined the channel
#
Loqi
https://twitter.com/jasonkneen :: Reading an article about indieweb and thinking wtf?
#
tantek
heh Loqi
#
Loqi
dude
#
tantek
ironically he does have his own domain: jasonified.com (even if it is hosted on Tumblr ;) )
#
tantek
as does the other person in the conversation: paul.kinlan.me
#
tantek
at least he's using Octopress
#
tantek
benwerd - I thought they were attacking/criticizing your work/posts in particular - I wonder what article they were referring to
#
benwerd
hard to know, although I was also defending my (admittedly straw-man-y) "do we need the Internet?" post over on Fb
#
tantek
given the timeframe - 2013-12-31
#
benwerd
Shrug. I'm a little weirded out by us being described as "these idiots"
#
pdurbin
tantek: sorry. kids. can't concentrate. was trying github
#
tantek
ironically that kind of description does more to discredit those making the statement
#
tantek
pdurbin odd. hmm. aaronpk ^^^
#
tantek
benwerd - it's a simple maturity/intelligence test - criticism of people rather than behaviors or ideas indicates either laziness or fear of engaging the ideas themselves.
#
tantek
publicly ad hominem attacking a specific person or group (especially without citation) indicates a lack of understanding of the previous statement
#
tantek
(internal consistency check: the previous two statements are indicating/criticizing behaviors, not individuals nor groups)
#
tantek
snarfed - fascinating - my favorite of your tweet just mentioning your blog post showed up as a favorite of the blog post itself! http://snarfed.org/2013-05-31_fighting-information-overload-and-beyond#comment-1171124
#
tantek
so does every tweet you make that links to that blog post act as a proxy for that post in terms of favorites, @-replies, and retweets?
#
snarfed
yup! indieweb is agnostic - a reply is also a post in its own right - so bridgy tries to be similarly agnostic
#
pdurbin
tantek: if you want to add that link, please go ahead
#
snarfed
or maybe flexible, or whatever adjective
#
tantek
pdurbin - I'd like to make sure we sort out whatever indieauth problem you were having.
#
snarfed
although i guess that's mostly just about the original post discovery algorithm
#
tantek
I'm not sure that's agnostic as it is including a second-degree of interactions semi-automatically
#
benwerd
(snarfed: I loved that aaronpk's Twitter favorite showed up as a like on my post. Really slickly done.)
#
snarfed
thanks!
#
tantek
benwerd - which post?
#
snarfed
took a while for webmention.io to accept the webmention, but it did eventually
#
tantek
snarfed - btw the "via twitter.com" etc. links are essential to understanding and very well done in your UI
#
tantek
as in - how did this favorite get here? oh that's how.
#
snarfed
agreed. there are a lot of moving parts, so provenance is really helpful
#
ShaneHudson
Anyone know why when I run my site through indiewebify.me it says neither my email or twitter can be fetched? Despite having rel="me"?
#
barnabywalters
ShaneHudson: currently indiewebify.me h-card validation only looks at microformats properties, not rel values (apart from for rel-me detection)
#
snarfed
tantek: you'll get more favorites, etc when you sign up yourself! (/plug :P)
#
tantek
yeah seriously :)
#
ShaneHudson
barnabywalters: Ah, ok. So my site isn't broken? Lol Thanks!
#
tantek
hmm - I just favorited benwerd's post and it's not showing up when I refresh his post
#
tantek
I wonder what the lag time is on favorite propagation
#
tantek
is that Twitter -> Twitter streaming API -> bridgy -> idno on werd.io?
#
tantek
(wondering where the lag is)
#
snarfed
neither you nor ben are signed up :P
#
snarfed
…really?
#
snarfed
looking
#
snarfed
oh! true
#
benwerd
newly, today
#
benwerd
but I am :)
#
snarfed
ah, that's why. welcome!
#
tantek
benwerd - but that favorite says it showed up 4 days ago
#
benwerd
it did
#
benwerd
because aaronpk was signed up
#
tantek
how's that possible if you only signed up today?
#
benwerd
(I assume)
#
tantek
that's very confusing
#
tantek
I thought the sign-up part was only for the *receiver* of webmentions
#
tantek
not for every person doing the favoriting / @-replying / retweeting
#
snarfed
it is a bit confusing. it's both sender and receiver for twitter favorites, but receiver only for everything else
#
snarfed
just because i didn't restrict the streaming api part, and i liked the result
#
tantek
snarfed - why? I'd think receivers would want to get *all* their favorites
#
tantek
not just from those who happened to have signed-up with bridgy
#
ShaneHudson
Hmm just read that twitter conversation between Paul, Jason and benwerd... shame they don't get it. Perhaps it is worth talking to Paul and perhaps writing a html5rocks article about it?
#
tantek
Shanehudson - you mean post a non-ironic article on a silo about the indieweb?
#
snarfed
tantek: sorry, i was unclear. it's the other direction. receivers get all replies/reshares/likes of their stuff. they also *send* their twitter favorites to everyone, but only twitter favorites right now, for no good reason.
#
tantek
ShaneHudson - my experience has been that it's a more effective use of time to *do* (i.e. improve your own indieweb presence) than *tell* (write posts on others sites about the indieweb)
#
ShaneHudson
Haha it is not a closed silo though, fully open source and non-exclusive right to post articles so could be POSSed
#
ShaneHudson
that's a fair point :)
#
tantek
you know the drill, ignore the haters, go create something
#
tantek
which reminds me