#indiewebcamp 2013-11-30

2013-11-30 UTC
pfenwick, ozten, smus, KevinMarks2, obensource_, obensource and tantek joined the channel
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tantek
good afternoon indiewebcamp
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tantek
what are folks' preferred map display services/libraries for showing visualizations of locations on their site?
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@ShaneHudson
@juice49 Yeah. I'm going to make a set of plugins that will let me take my site the direction I want to take it. Mainly #indieweb things
(twitter.com/_/status/406585956364349440)
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tantek
whoa when did Google Latitude get shutdown?
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tantek
also, re: losing stuff on iOS woes - just tried out this download which seems to view backup content (including txt msgs) quite well: http://download.cnet.com/iBackup-Viewer/3000-18545_4-75692452.html
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href
a long time ago no?
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bret
!tell tantek http://leafletjs.com/ seems to be a popular choice. It renders maptiles and even works on mobile browsers pretty well
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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ShaneHudson
Not sure what the question was but for more complicated things OpenLayers is a fairly good choice. Very powerful although a little outdated performance wise (there is a large update in the works)
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KevinMarks_
Latitude was shut down as part of the Gogole Maps rewrite. there is aversion insdie the G+ app as locations
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KevinMarks_
which is the wrong place for it, I want it on my maps
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ShaneHudson
Yup, it is now enabled by default (at least it was on my nexus 5)
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KevinMarks_
!tell tantek latitude was shut down in August as part of the google maps rewrite https://support.google.com/gmm/answer/3001634?hl=en
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi
tantek: bret left you a message 1 hour, 13 minutes ago: http://leafletjs.com/ seems to be a popular choice. It renders maptiles and even works on mobile browsers pretty well
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Loqi
tantek: KevinMarks_ left you a message 1 hour, 1 minute ago: latitude was shut down in August as part of the google maps rewrite https://support.google.com/gmm/answer/3001634?hl=en
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tantek
bret - good to know. I saw that leafletjs and also modestmaps
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bret
tantek another useful tool for throwing together quick maps is http://geojson.io/
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tantek
wondering if there's a simple <iframe> embed version of any of these
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tantek
where you give it a src URL with lat&lon and it simply embeds the map inside the iframe
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tantek.com
edited /site-deaths (+257) "/* 2013 */ 2013-08-09 Google Latitude retired (thanks KevinMarks for citation)"
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tantek
interesting coincidence, same day as Silent Circle shutting down
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tantek
which was the day after Lavabit shutdown
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tantek
bret I don't really get geojson.io. All I remember about geojson is critically discussing it with aaronpk about its more math than maps and should've been named geomjson (geometry json).
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bret
i guess that makes sense XD
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bret
but its tied to lat long data no?
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tantek
it seems unitless actually
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bret
a new 'private' social network is making rounds https://getsyme.com/
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bret
not sure how to categorize it.... look like a silo that lets you pass around encrypted data
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tantek
bret - Diaspora was originally for people to "share privately with groups"
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bret
Aral is working on launching a phone! http://indiephone.eu/
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tantek
bret - indeed. it's quite hard to launch a "phone".
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tantek
also seems like a lot of overlap with FireFoxOS - perhaps aral can use it as a starting point
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bret
and os and ... whatever else is involved, seems like a huge task
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tantek.com
edited /location (+43) "update stub header, note relation to checkin, event, and note"
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tantek
bret - do you post location/geo information along with any of your notes?
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bret
tantek i have not
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tantek
ok was just curious
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bret
I want to keep track of location data/bookmarks with my site, but nothing has been made yet
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tantek
am looking into how to markup location information in a post
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bret
Lat/long, date and A name would be where I start
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tantek
well date (dt-published) and id (url) are already parts of posts
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bret
oh right ;)
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bret
should it tie in to flight data, like aaron was doing?
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bret
i guess thats kind of its own thing
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tantek
yeah I'm just thinking of current simple uses
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tantek
e.g. tweets have location
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tantek
photos have location
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tantek
both of which are "FYI" type information - not central
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tantek
whereas for a checkin post, location is key/central
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tantek
similarly for an event (post), location is essential
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bret
I think benwerd has a simple location data filed on his post interface
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bret
iirc
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bret
i gotta run! bbl
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tantek.com
edited /location (+240) "update to uf2, note photo/video also commonly have location"
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tantek.com
edited /note (+43) "/* Less Common Aspects */ location rather than geo, but link to both"
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tantek.com
created /Geo (+17) "r"
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tantek.com
created /Location (+22) "r"
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters tried to look at screenshots of notes that you'd posted on your own site, but login on the page doesn't work (and appears to be required) http://photos.waterpigs.co.uk/photos/tags-note/list#
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek
hmm - map links from Twitter appear to be very slow to load
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tantek
e.g. just trying to click on the "Austin, TX" link which goes to a gmap URL: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.26486910%2C-97.73992552&z=15 never finishes loading for me.
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@aaronpk
@dens I hope we run in to each other today! @caseorganic and I would love to catch up!
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tantek
didn't tweets with location used to show a little mini-map?
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aaronpk
yes they did
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aaronpk
do they not anymore?
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aaronpk
oh sad
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aaronpk
tantek: geojson is coming to be the standard in JSON representations of lat/lng data
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aaronpk
all the open source mapping libraries use it
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tantek
aaronpk - do you have any screenshots of Twitter notes with location maps?
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aaronpk
hm let me check
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tantek
I think barnabywalters may have had some but he posted them in openphoto/trovebox and I think something is messed up with his install as it now requires login just to view and the login is broken
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tantek
seriously not going to trust any open source content related projects that the founders/authors aren't self-dogfooding on their primary own domain
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aaronpk
yeah, I never felt comfortable with those photo hosting projects which is why I still use flickr
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aaronpk
oh and because search is hard
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aaronpk
I want my own search app that I can point at all my own websites, kind of like how you'd install a google search applicance for your intranet
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tantek
I wouldn't mind an indiesearch that just searched indieweb sites (and perhaps related community)
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tantek
and was actually *comprehensive*
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aaronpk
a search app that can parse and index microformats2 documents would be sweet
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tantek
as in had all posts indexed
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tantek
Google used to have all my since-2010 posts indexed but at some point they dropped a bunch
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tantek
and don't return comprehensive results any more
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aaronpk
yeah, indiesearch would be cool
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aaronpk
speaking of indie* did you see Aral's renaming of Prometheus?
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tantek
aaronpk - see logs - bret & I already briefly discussed it ;)
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tantek
with Technorati we kind of had that (comprehensive indie search) - in that if you signed up and claimed your blog on Technorati, we would explicitly spider and index your archives
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aaronpk
ah yes
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aaronpk
"Indie, the Indie Spaceship Logo, Indie Phone, Indie OS, Indie Cloud, Empowering Humans, and Deeply Empowering are trademarks of Article 12 Limited."
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tantek
which then provided good incentive for people to put a Technorati Search Widget on their sites
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tantek
(which I built while there - the "searchlet" :) )
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aaronpk
should we just rebuild that? lol
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aaronpk
yeah I'd use it
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tantek
"Enable your readers to search your blog with the Technorat Searchlet."
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tantek
[sic] ;)
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aaronpk
OMG I found one!
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tantek
oh man - the wikipedia searchlet page which I mentioned got deleted after I left Technorati. bastards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlet
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aaronpk
(a tweet with a map)
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aaronpk
I must have been planning on showing mini-maps on my own posts when I took that screenshot
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tantek
whoa nice capture!
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tantek
my guess is that Google said stop
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aaronpk
heh yeah
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tantek
because now they just hyperlink to google map queries like: https://maps.google.com/maps?q=30.26486910%2C-97.73992552&z=15
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aaronpk
or said "ok pay us $$$"
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tantek
right
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tantek
they could have just used OSM
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aaronpk
"just used OSM" is misleading
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tantek
well, Leaflet.js or equivalent as we've been discussing
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tantek
modestmaps
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aaronpk
OSM doesn't really want to provide hosting services to people, despite having a publicly available map
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aaronpk
leaflet is just a javascript library
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aaronpk
you need tiles from somewhere
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aaronpk
mapbox provides tiles as a paid service
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tantek
um: nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?street=2+harrison+st&city=san+francisco&state=ca
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aaronpk
the data for mapbox tiles comes from OSM
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tantek
seems to "work fine"
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aaronpk
FSVO of "fine"
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aaronpk
as in, TOS may prevent you from doing things with it
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tantek
looks like it just required a minimal cc-by/sa attribution to OSM etc
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aaronpk
nominatim is the geocoding/search part of OSM, not tiles
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aaronpk
"The tile service comes with no guarantee as to availability or speed" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Deploying_your_own_Slippy_Map
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aaronpk
"OpenStreetMap data is free for everyone to use. Our tile servers are not."
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aaronpk
"Do not hardcode any URL at tile.openstreetmap.org into an app."
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tantek
hence modestmaps
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aaronpk
modestmaps is just a javascript library too, you still need tiles from somewhere
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aaronpk
the example one http://modestmaps.com/ uses mapbox.com tiles
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aaronpk
mapquest actually does provide a free tile hosting service: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mapquest#MapQuest-hosted_map_tiles (can be used with leaflet or modestmaps or any other JS or non-JS library)
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aaronpk
I should probably do a writup of this stuff huh
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Loqi
yea!
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aaronpk
tantek: do you think you and others would benefit from a full writup of how all this stuff works? what all the pieces are, how to find which ones to use, licensing/TOS stuff, etc?
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tantek
yes - because it is not clear at all
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tantek
the stamen stuff looks reasonable though
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aaronpk
yeah the stamen maps look good for sure
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tantek
so I think stamen solved the tile problem
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tantek
"We’d love to see these maps used around the web, so we’ve included some brief instructions to help you use them in the mapping system of your choice. These maps are available free of charge. If you use the tiles we host here, please use this attribution: Map tiles by Stamen Design, under CC BY 3.0. Data by OpenStreetMap, under CC BY SA."
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tantek
I mean, you're more of a knowledgable expert on this stuff - tell me what I'm missing.
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aaronpk
yes, that looks like they do in fact want people to use the tiles directly
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tantek
yes - per this: "To use these tiles, just include our JavaScript alongside your favorite mapping library:"
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tantek
that sounds like: ok to use our tiles directly, and here's a JS library that does so
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aaronpk
oh funny, what does their JS library do?
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aaronpk
oh clever, it sets all the attribution and min/max zoom level stuff for each JS library
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aaronpk
http://maps.stamen.com/js/tile.stamen.js?v1.2.4 (there is code there specifically for Leaflet, ModestMaps, etc)
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tantek
right
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tantek
ModestMaps is stamen's own library
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tantek
I like "no-frills" :)
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aaronpk
which means you technically don't need the stamen JS library if you just copy the relevant bit of code into your own JS
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tantek
note that they even give you an SSL endpoint for directly loading/access of their tiles
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aaronpk
I should mention that Esri also provides tile services, and thanks to the new "developer plans" we helped introduce, you can use them for free
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aaronpk
easiest way is probably through esri-leaflet: https://github.com/Esri/esri-leaflet
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tantek
I was wondering
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aaronpk
I do like the "grey" basemap. super minimal labels, gets out of the way if you're putting other things on the map: http://esri.github.io/esri-leaflet/arcgisbasemaps.html change to "gray" (sorry for the lack of permalink)
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tantek
pretty
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aaronpk
the national geographic basemap is also really nice
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aaronpk
more of a normal looking map
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tantek
yes that's nicer than the nominatim cartoonish looking SVG
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tantek
(you did notice that they were sending back SVG tiles right? e.g.: http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/search?street=2+harrison+st&city=san+francisco&state=ca )
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aaronpk
yeah, the one on the nominatim link has everything turned on, so it's ridiculously busy looking
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aaronpk
oh yeah
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tantek
maybe tommorris can help with recovering the old page from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Searchlet
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aaronpk
tantek: there's also this that I've been working on, a service that lets you create a simple image map by writing an img tag. no JS needed https://github.com/esripdx/Static-Maps-API-PHP
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tantek
oh that's cool. kinda like google charts img tags
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aaronpk
that's probably what I'm going to use for maps on my site when I finally get around to it
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tantek
that's pretty awesome. would it be ok to show that img and then wrap it in a hyperlink to Google Maps for directions?
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aaronpk
haha yeah sure
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aaronpk
that's pretty funny
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tantek
I'm thinking a lot about maps right now because for me, showing a map is essential for event posts
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tantek
(of the location)
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aaronpk
but yeah, as long as you're following the TOS of whatever tile provider you select (stamen maps are there too) then you can do whatever you want with this
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aaronpk
ah yeah maps for events makes a ton of sense
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tantek
yes - in fact I'm specifically thinking a short and wide rectangle
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aaronpk
yeah! I like that format a lot
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aaronpk
facebook has been doing that, right?
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tantek
right
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tantek
especially in their mobile web UI
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tantek
for events
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aaronpk
yeah orange stands out better
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tantek
to me blue-dot is already used by iOS to mean "your device thinks you're here"
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tantek
and red-dot is the traditional "you are here" on maps
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tantek
fb uses 492x125
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tantek
which I think is a bit too tight
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tantek
I like my 640x160
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tantek
gives just enough more room for many more complete street names to provide quick "at a glance" context
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aaronpk
when it's shorter, you kind of need to be able to recognize the area to get any meaning
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tantek
I like showing sufficient zoom to show a few street names (because I think that really helps with quick recognition of the area)
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tantek
but when you zoom that far in, you need a bit more dimension to show enough space around the destination.
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tantek
man, I was going to write a whole bunch of JS to do this the hard way (but based on reading a <p class="h-geo"> for the coordinates)
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tantek
but now with this static img - I think I may skip all the JS
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aaronpk
yeah, the JS is cool cause people can zoom in and out to get more context, but I think for a sort of "preview" the static img is better cause it loads faster. you can always link people out to a full map for directions and such
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tantek
exactly. minimize JS
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tantek
MFW style
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tantek
the gray is so clean
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tantek
Tufte would approve
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tantek
I suppose I could still use clientside JS to generate the IMG with the static src
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aaronpk
heh true
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tantek
so search bots and other crawlers wouldn't bother to crawl/index the map img
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tantek
they don't need it - it's purely for humans
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tantek
they can pull the location info from the microformats
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aaronpk
OTOH I would actually want facebook and twitter to use the map image as the preview image for my event posts
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tantek
I wouldn't
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aaronpk
the image would be more of a fallback in that case
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tantek
I would want them to use the author-curated "event photo"
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aaronpk
of course, but assuming there isn't one?
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aaronpk
I have yet to include an "event photo" in any of my posts
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tantek
in any of your event posts?
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tantek
but nearly all events I've posted on FB or G+ I've added explicit event photos for the header
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aaronpk
interesting. I like the idea, just have never done it
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tantek
it seems to get more "engagement" on such events
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tantek
perhaps not unlike having an iconic/representative photo on blog posts
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aaronpk
I'm sure it does!
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tantek
plus there seems to be a culture of doing it
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tantek
events my friends organize seem to nearly all have an event header photo
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tantek
and it does seem to add a draw to them
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tantek
people seem to use the "event photo" like crafting an invitation
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aaronparecki.com
edited /p3k (+207) "/* Events */ photos and maps"
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tantek
oh yeah - good call
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aaronpk
ok bedtime for me!
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aaronpk
looking forward to seeing what you do with this!
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+491) "/* event posts */ rough thoughts on event post IA / visual design, cluster related aspects"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (-9) "/* event posts */"
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tantek.com
edited /Falcon (+265) "/* event posts */ possibly do map graphic with JS on clientside to reduce crawling of map graphics"
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squeakytoy, tantek, melvster, bnvk, smus, KevinMarks2, skinny, wyomingplease, andreypopp, milk1, KartikPrabhu, singpolyma, pfenwick, jschweinsberg, CheckDavid, snarfed, friedcell, josephboyle and barnabywalters joined the channel
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 10 hours, 31 minutes ago: tried to look at screenshots of notes that you'd posted on your own site, but login on the page doesn't work (and appears to be required) http://photos.waterpigs.co.uk/photos/tags-note/list#
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barnabywalters
!tell tantek indeed, openphoto broke even though I switched back from the dev branch to stable — and apparently when there’s an update ready to be applied, *every* permalink breaks — a poor design decision. Haven’t fixed yet due to building taproot being higher priority than fixing broken open source software, might migrate all the old content (maybe permalinks too) over
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi
tantek: barnabywalters left you a message 55 minutes ago: indeed, openphoto broke even though I switched back from the dev branch to stable — and apparently when there’s an update ready to be applied, *every* permalink breaks — a poor design decision. Haven’t fixed yet due to building taproot being higher priority than fixing broken open source software, might migrate all the old content (maybe permalinks too) over
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tantek
!tell barnabywalters yikes! breaking permalinks would be a blocker for me - sounds like the Flickr silo is more reliable than OpenPhoto. Any way to export your photos to Flickr?
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Loqi
Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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jonnybarnes
anyone got any guides for syndicatig to Twitter? By which I specifically mean sending the note to Twitter's API
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neuro`
jonnybarnes: the twitter API is pretty clear about that. What do you need more ?
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jonnybarnes
looking at how to authorize my PHP app using OAuth
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ShaneHudson
There are plenty of non-indieweb guides, just have a google. I've used a php repo on github before to do it
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jonnybarnes
I'm already using Laravel 4 so this looks like a good start: https://github.com/thujohn/twitter-l4
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tantek
oh right, the PHP bits to call Twitter's snowflake API
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tantek
once you've got that working, then the fun stuff begins
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@benwerd
Content-specific #POSSE toggles are up and running. Now to make them prettier ... #idno #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/406857963794477056/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/406857963794477056)
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jonnybarnes
why do you call it snowflake?
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tantek
jonnybarnes - because every service thinks they are special and thus deserves a unique API
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tantek
: jonnybarnes - because every service thinks they are special and thus deserves a unique API
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tantek
this is a recent post about it but it's been labeled as such since at least 2008: http://www.devx.com/blog/avoid-integration-snowflakes-api-reuse.html
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tantek
sometimes also called the "Beautiful Fucking Snowflake API" problem
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@chrismessina
And, another beautiful fucking snowflake profile API: http://j.mp/in-profile Sigh. Guess they missed the memo about PortableContacts.net.
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KartikPrabhu
int he context of APIs I just read this nice article : http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2013/11/29/the-lie-of-the-api/
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tantek
that's a good post
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KartikPrabhu
i was curious. What do indieweb folk think of all these silo apis?
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - and previously: http://tommorris.org/posts/2452 (by our very own tommorris)
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KartikPrabhu
yes. of course. I had read that a while back but forgotten
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@kevinmarks
RT @benwerd: Content-specific #POSSE toggles are up and running. Now to make them prettier ... #idno #indieweb https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/406857963794477056/photo/1
(twitter.com/_/status/406864807430594561)
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - and this little quip ;) https://twitter.com/t/status/354760839141658625
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@t
Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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KartikPrabhu
aah I miss out on all the twitter-ness. maybe it is finally time to join twitter and follow all these awesome quips you guys make
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - you don't need to join Twitter to get my quips - you can get them from my home page or legacy Atom feed ;)
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KartikPrabhu
aaha! of course I can! indieweb FTW!
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tantek
re: the lie of the API - while CONNEG is one workaround to separate URLs, the author misses where we've made progress with microformats - the HTML becomes your API.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek - I was thinking the same. With correctly markedup microformats the HTML already has the machine-readable data
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KartikPrabhu
re: the lie of the API - the author is also concerned with general resources like images/videos and the like that might not come packaged in HTML.
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tantek
those have their own URLs already
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Loqi
barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 2 hours, 4 minutes ago: yikes! breaking permalinks would be a blocker for me - sounds like the Flickr silo is more reliable than OpenPhoto. Any way to export your photos to Flickr?
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barnabywalters
good evening
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barnabywalters
tantek: nope, I think flickr -> OP (now trovebox, weirdly) import is one-way only
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barnabywalters
so looks like I need to make some progress on photo posting in #taproot — i.e. something more than just notes with <img> elements in
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tantek
sad to see it become unreliable
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barnabywalters
plaintively tries pulling the latest version to see if that fixes it
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@kyle_wm
A few months late, but I am joining he first federated #indieweb conversation: https://eschnou.com/entry/te http://kylewm.com/note/2013/5512
(twitter.com/_/status/406869032101359617)
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tantek
nicely done kylewm!
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tantek
POSSEing to Twitter, h-entry, rel=syndication, rel=in-reply-to
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barnabywalters
anyone know what happened to openphoto? most of their branding changed to “trovebox”, https://trovebox.com/ but there’s no mention of open source software on that site, and the old openphoto repo hasn’t been touched for 6 months :/ https://github.com/photo/frontend
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barnabywalters
kylewm: your notes are looking good and parsing well! nice work
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barnabywalters
kylewm: you should change the scheme of your twitter syndication links to https so original-post-discovery works
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@kyle_wm
A few months late, but I having fun trying to join the first federated #indieweb conversation :) http://kylewm.com/note/2013/5512
(twitter.com/_/status/406870898390491137)
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barnabywalters
not sure where best to document that twitter syndication https requirement
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barnabywalters
tantek: yes that’s a good place. I was going to put it on /Twitter
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barnabywalters
but I’ll just add a link to rel-syndication
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tantek
because this is about what you publish *on your own site* not on Twitter
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tantek
if I understood you correctly
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tantek
you're talking about rel=syndication links *to* https://twitter.com/
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tantek
then yeah this seems like the right section for it: http://indiewebcamp.com/rel-syndication#Publishing
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tantek
maybe a "Links to Twitter" subsection
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /Twitter (+142) "/* POSSE to Twitter in general */ mentioned tweet URL construction, linked to rel-syndication for more details"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /rel-syndication (+234) "/* Publishing */ added twitter special considerations"
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waterpigs.co.uk
edited /rel-syndication (+1) "/* Linking to Twitter.com */ fixed markup bug"
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KartikPrabhu
webmention Q - When sending a webmention should there be some way of saying what kind of mention is being sent? That is was the target only 'mentioned' in source, or 'quoted', or 'cited' or 'rsvp'ed, or 'reposted'?
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aaronpk
KartikPrabhu: no, that's already handled when the receiver parses the HTML of the mention, based on what kind of microforamts is present
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KartikPrabhu
aaronpk: I realised that soon as I posted the question. But the microformats only have an explicit u-in-reply-to, but no other format to specify the link type (yet!?)
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kylewm
tantek: just saw that my tweets landed here, thanks for the encouragement!
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kylewm
barnabywalters: re: twitter syndication links to https -- ok will do!!
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - what is it that you're trying to do?
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KartikPrabhu
tantek - Basically when parsing webmentions sent to me, I would like to do different things depending on whether say it is a 'reshare' (or as tumblr calls it 'repost') of the original or if it is a separate article that is in reply to one of mine, or if it merely links to mine but is not actually in reply-to.
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KartikPrabhu
so far only u-reply-to is being used, but there might be scope to have more kinds of replies?
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aaronpk
I believe there are a few other types being posted right now
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aaronpk
I know sandeep.io is parsing comments, likes, re-posts and mentions
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aaronpk
and benwerd posts "likes" from werd.io
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KartikPrabhu
will check it out. thanks
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tantek
I think Sandeep is parsing u-like u-repost
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aaronpk
can't find any examples off-hand, but check out the wiki page on "like" and others
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tantek
I think idno can post u-like(s) also (but not yet reposts AFAIK)
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tantek
right, check /like and /repost
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tantek
so right now there are mentions (default), comments/replies (in-reply-to), RSVPs (an in-reply-to with a p-rsvp value), likes (in-reply-to with u-like), reposts (in-reply-to with u-repost)
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tantek.com
created /snowflake (+261) "stub"
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KartikPrabhu
good to know!
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tantek.com
edited /2013/API_All_the_Things (+777) "archive the notes from the etherpad"
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tantek.com
edited /platform (+22) "linky linky"
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tantek.com
created /protocols (+233) "stub"
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tantek.com
moved /protocols to /protocol "singular"
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tantek.com
created /formats (+225) "stub"
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tantek.com
moved /Hosted_API to /2012/UK/Hosted_API "move to event specific path"
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@CindyPond
@LauraMulcahy1 love watching the shifts ... consumers & fans ruling the day while many larger companies still trying to control #ownYourData
(twitter.com/_/status/406895304500604928)
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tantek.com
moved /formats to /format "singular"
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tantek.com
edited /snowflake (+509) "expand definition with summary"
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tantek
somehow related to all this API duplicitousness is APP duplicitousness: http://tommorris.org/posts/8070
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tommorris
tantek: good news - my mother now has a personal domain and web presence. echo parents >> indieweb ;)
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tantek
tommorris - I think you win
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KartikPrabhu
tommorris - you win indeed. I can't get my parents to use a computer even!
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tommorris
she's using wordpress.com premium. think she's quite a way from trying ferocity or falcon or any of other homebrew solutions
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tantek
tommorris - she has her own piece of web real estate as it were, so that's the important start
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tantek
perhaps we should document at least brainstorming strategies for migrating people from wordpress.com hosted - e.g. permalink maintenance (no idea where to start)
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tommorris
you can migrate from wordpress.com-with-your-own-domain to self-hosted wordpress fairly easily
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tommorris
it dumps out a big XML file. you just import that back in
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tantek.com
created /API (+3291) "stub with a bunch of URLs mentioned today in IRC and others they reminded me of"
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tantek
tommorris - sure, migrating to wordpress self-hosted is possible, but I'd say not advised - it's too much of a maintenance hassle
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tommorris
a Wordpress XML archive to HTML w/hAtom tool would probably be quite useful
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tantek
tommorris - just "stubbed" (using that term loosely) this article from scratch (surprised we didn't have something before) http://indiewebcamp.com/API
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tantek
I feel like you might easily think of more to add to it
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tantek
(I mean I only cited two of your posts ;) )
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tantek.com
edited /API (-1) "/* DRY Violation */ ws"
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KartikPrabhu
tantek - adding this article (http://ruben.verborgh.org/blog/2013/11/29/the-lie-of-the-api/) in the context of DRY violation... ?
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tantek
yes - sorry forgot to add that. go ahead.
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tommorris.org
edited /API (+429) "complexity"
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kartikprabhu.com
edited /API (+112) "/* DRY Violation */"
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tantek
great
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tantek
I'm going to split the DRY violation into two sections
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tantek.com
edited /API (+878) "/* DRY Violation */ split into two subsections, different URLs, duplicate content in different format(s)"
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tantek.com
edited /API (+418) "/* DRY Violation */ move App duplicitousness up"
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KartikPrabhu
reading the API wiki page now, it seems to me that the leading philosophy is: publisher publishes only HTML+microformats and clients can parse it in any which way they want. correct?
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tantek.com
edited /API (+29) "/* DRY Violation */ move RSS up as an example of DRY violation of same/similar content, different format, different URL"
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tantek
KartikPrabhu rather, that clients can parse the HTML using common HTML parsing libraries, and the microformats as well simillarly http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers
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tantek
there's more precision there than "any which way they want"
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tantek
and by doing so, they get the JSON or whatever they want, without having to burden *every* *single* *publisher* with publishing duplicate formats or URLs
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KartikPrabhu
yes, by "any which way they want" i meant, they could choose to parse the whole thing to JSON if they wanted to
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KartikPrabhu
cool! we seem to be on the same page! :)
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tantek
speaking of which I remember seeing tommorris and barnabywalters working on a Python microformats2 parser
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tantek
tommorris - could you add the Python uf2 parser to a new "Python" subsection here? http://microformats.org/wiki/parsers#microformats2_parsers
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tommorris
tantek: done
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tantek
good find KartikPrabhu
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tantek
looks like we may have some wiki clean-up / simplifying to do
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tantek
thanks tommorris
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KartikPrabhu
i knew i had seen it somewhere! :P
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tantek
remember that "culture of performing" that I was complaining about from social media interactions? It's apparently far worse: https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/fcc6956937fa :/
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KartikPrabhu
everyone now is a paparazzo and everyone else a Paris Hilton!
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tommorris
this sounds like a very computeranonymous.org conversation.
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tantek
tommorris - while I understand the humor, the serious aspect I'm trying to take to heart is how (if we can at all) can we alter or deliberately design our indieweb publishing and interactions to do better than the dopamine-addiction and crass-feedback-loop traps that social media has wrought.
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tantek
I want to believe we can do better.
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KartikPrabhu
tantek - it might not be a problem of the tools used, but people who use them are not responsible
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - people have many potential natures. The design of the tools and services we use can influence how people choose to behave.
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KartikPrabhu
but once you make web social interactions very very accessible and easy, I don;t see how you can stop people from being a&&#oles on it
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KartikPrabhu
tnatek - but maybe it is a good thing that you are not as cynical as I am.
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - online social interactions can often mirror in-person social interactions (and the full range thereof). but I want to believe we can design for better online interactions, rather than amplifying the lowest common denominator ("gotcha" or shaming culture), or amplifying the dopamine loop of today's posting/acting for likes (which was yesterday's sending emails to get responses, and then habitual inbox-checking)
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KartikPrabhu
it would be really interesting if someone here actually solves this in someway
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tantek
or even just improves upon it
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tantek
I think we have that opportunity
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tantek
and while we eager work on re-implementing silo features, but for our own sites, I'm just asking that we at least *consider* such social-design impacts, in the hopes that we can, maybe in some small way, built a distributed indie web that is more positive, more humane, than the culture(s) silos have amplified
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tantek
s/built/build
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Loqi
tantek meant to say: and while we eager work on re-implementing silo features, but for our own sites, I'm just asking that we at least *consider* such social-design impacts, in the hopes that we can, maybe in some small way, build a distributed indie web that is more positive, more humane, than the culture(s) silos have amplified
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KevinMarks_
this chap is a producer on The Bachelor
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KevinMarks_
not surprising he has poor boundary issues
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KartikPrabhu
agreed! admittedly the small time i have spent on this IRC has been much more rewarding than hanging out on the 'silos'
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tantek
KartikPrabhu - that's good to hear and a good start :)
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tantek
KevinMarks, you might be interested in this presentation - just saw the slides myself: http://www.slideshare.net/dberkholz/assholes-are-killing-your-project (reminds me a lot of past episode that predates this preso)
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KevinMarks_
the 'node committer rejecting neutral pronouns' thing today is a prime example
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tantek
KevinMarks - yes that's where I got the link from
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tantek
from the joyent blog post
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tantek.com
edited /note (+275) "/* Location */ add subsections, indieweb thoughts, twitter tweet with location examples"
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KartikPrabhu
this might be of interest here: http://5by5.tv/webahead/59 the latest WebAhead podcast about Web RTC. about 30 min in they talk about thinking of the web as a telecommunication platform, and the role of silos and federated communication
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tantek
yes there's much promise in that
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tantek
one IndieWebCampUK 2013 presenter showed how he uses his own website + webRTC to let people reach him in whatever country he's in (his site figure out which phone number to forward a WebRTC call to)
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bear
that goal/promise is driving a lot of what my group is trying to do, and ensure that it can happen, with WebRTC
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tantek
it was Sammachin.com
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tantek
ooh - have to run but this section could use subsections for each presenter: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/demos#Selfdogfood_Demos_-_Day_1
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tantek
if one of you has a moment to help a wiki page out !
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tantek
so we could direct link to Sam Machin's demo
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bear
will attempt that now
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tantek
note how the following section *does* have subsections for each presenter: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK/demos#Hack_Day_Demos_-_Day_2
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tantek
thanks bear1
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tantek
thanks bear!
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bear
I will dup what I find in section 2 now - will be done in minutes
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aaronpk
tantek: wow I had completely forgotten about that "sending emails to get responses, then habitual inbox-checking" behavior!
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aaronpk
funny that some things never change, they just adapt to new media
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bear.im
edited /2013/UK/Demos (+391) "added subsections to allow presenter direct links"
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bear
That is the one true constant of all online interactions - the tools, silos, apps, whatever rarely make a difference - it's how people interact with people and themselves. Compassion and Open-ness have to be taught, learned and enforced in order for it to become the norm