#indiewebcamp 2013-10-13

2013-10-13 UTC
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bret !tell shaners Wanna meet up tomorrow at somepoint?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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aaronpk Just finished my "mentions" feed, marked up with h-cite. Hopefully I got all of that right. http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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aaronpk there are a number of different cases I need to handle, when the source contains an h-entry, an h-event, or no mf2 markup, etc. So let me know if you see something that doesn't look right.
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aaronpk clearly I need to do some work on storing my mentions, there seem to be a number of duplicate entries in some cases
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aaronpk also not sure how useful showing mentions of my site from my site are
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aaronpk (a bunch of them here, when I think someone was testing the webmention client http://aaronparecki.com/mentions?before=20130829-110400)
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bret way cool aaronpk :)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/personal-domain (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/ (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (webmention)
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aaronparecki.com edited /comment (+0) "move "reply" discussion lower" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /comment (+1) "moved examples to their own section to make the "how" section read better" (view diff)
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aaronpk almost got real-time comments working! https://gist.github.com/aaronpk/6958924
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/events/2013-09-30-indieweb-dinner (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/webmention (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/comment (webmention)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/h-entry (webmention)
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aaronpk woo
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aaronpk !tell tantek http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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Loqi glennjones: barnabywalters left you a message 1 week, 6 days ago: looks like IWCUK is overfull — any idea if the venue is likely to be happy to accommodate one or two extra people?
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Loqi tantek: aaronpk left you a message 3 hours, 38 minutes ago: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments
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tantek aaronpk - AWESOME!!!
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@t Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389368111428018176)
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@_le_fil_ Tantek: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://t.co/tVpSqViA6J... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter (twitter.com/_/status/389368264851062785)
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tantek aaronpk - I tried to use your webmention form but when I entered http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments it said "You didn't enter a URL!"
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tantek back to curl it is ;)
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tantek and that totally worked. Amazing.
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tantek off to go run in Central Park. once again, congratulations @aaronpk. That's a huge milestone.
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@BarnabyWalters Congratulations @aaronpk on implementing real-time #indieweb comments in #p3k using #webmention, websockets, redis… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4SXD6g/ (twitter.com/_/status/389376653996355584)
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@PoldoSbaffini RT @t: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389382931602763776)
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@kevinmarks RT @t: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389384719214718976)
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@unhosted RT @t: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389388130065084417)
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@jmk Wouldn't it be rad if we could have real time, Facebook-like comments everywhere? We can. /via @t http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389407088763736064)
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@kevinmarks @juliepagano good collation of codes of conduct here: http://indiewebcamp.com/code-of-conduct-examples (twitter.com/_/status/389411062925111296)
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@metasj @bethaltringer Here's a nice #webmention comment tool: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389425189575868416)
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@aaronpk @patrikmalmberg Current personal health accounts are a step in the right direction, but ultimately it requires... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/10/13/6/qs13-quantifiedself-ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/389429747714752512)
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@cstanhope RT @t: Well done @aaronpk! Real-time #indieweb comments: http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/13/1/realtime-indieweb-comments I only mentioned the idea at the ... http://tantek.com/2013/286/t1/real-time-indieweb-comments (twitter.com/_/status/389433764520009728)
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aaronpk tantek: I fixed my webmention form, thanks!
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tantek great!
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caseorganic tantek: would it be possible for you to quickly review my indieweb slides quickly for krtconf? the first two sections are kind of ok, the 3rd needs work. i will convert them into html5 but ppt is good for drafting https://www.dropbox.com/s/xzfqmw9cyfk5o4c/IntroductionToTheIndieWeb.pptx
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+1226) "note 5 post types, bolden each one, move legacy tech to its own section with specific use-cases for each, provide more details of current posting UI, add working on "pre-fill in-reply-to field"" (view diff)
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tantek hello caseorganic!
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caseorganic tantek: i put the rss/atom wars section in, but i need to know if there was more at play then just that
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caseorganic tantek: hello!
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tantek sure, let me braindump one more thing to the wiki
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caseorganic tantek: i could also feed the slides line by line into irc for checking, whichever works better
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tantek ah, if only my IRC client had a link preview feature where it showed the destination of links in IRC in a sidebar as people messaged them in IRC
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caseorganic tantek: yes
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+0) "/* Working On */ move sending webmentions to the top. aaronpk's realtime indieweb comments implementation has pushed me to do webmentions semi-automatically (instead of manual curl) the better to demo commenting on aaronpk's posts in realtime :)" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - you're so productive you're forcing me to reprioritize what I'm working on! :)
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tantek is sad about .pptx for the indieweb slides
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tantek is now really confused about how these can possibly be rendering in FF.
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caseorganic tantek: it is only temporary draft
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tantek sure, editing tool, got it.
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tantek still confused about what is actually rendering them inline in a FF tab.
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aaronpk it might be a dropbox preview thing
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tantek caseorganic my goodness the AOL Hometown messages about moving to Geocities are gold!
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caseorganic tantek: they're my favorite comments :) found them years ago
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caseorganic tantek: i have to go to lunch now -- switching to mobile IRC
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tantek you need to take *just that one comment* and put it on its own slide
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tantek my goodness
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caseorganic tantek: if i switch off, feel free to use !tell command
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caseorganic tantek: will do!
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tantek "FORTUNATELY I SAVED MY WEBPAGE & TRANSFERRED IT TO GEOCITIES."
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tantek (!!!!!)
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caseorga_ Back
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tantek caseorganic: typo: mantually -> manually
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tantek also, problem of Pingbacks presentation - should just show a screenshot of crappy pingbacks
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tantek I can find a sample for you to screenshot
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caseorga_ Tantek: yes please
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caseorga_ Tantek: re: screenshot
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tantek caseorganic, here you go - example of a blog post with nothing but redundant/meaningless pingbacks: https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2013/01/28/privacy-day-2013/ (oh, and some spam too)
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tantek (underscoring your second point about "got overrun by spammers" - which you could/should make into a second/separate slide than the "pingback has bad presentation" point)
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caseorga_ Tantek: ok will break those apart
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tantek each is a strong point on its own
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tantek glad my braindumping to you about 2003 made into something ;)
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caseorga_ Tantek: yes of course
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tantek is hoping for a citation of some sort ;)
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caseorga_ Tantek: haven't gotten to citations yet
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tantek on your "Big difference between 2013 and 2003" - those are good points about tweet become a thing etc. one more point to add:
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caseorga_ Tantek: but there will be solid citations, one reason is so that if people read the slides later they won't write wired articles that make it seem like a guy from google invented IndieWeb
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tantek *users* switched from using *separate* reading/posting UIs of *decentralized* sources (RSS/Atom style) to using an *integrated* reading/posting UI at a *centralized* source wherever users were found themselves posting the most (e.g. Twitter, FB). And the blog/reader/RSS/Atom world either didn't notice or were in complete denial.
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caseorga_ Tantek: I also wanted to check citations before writing them in - the slide on social network supermarkets is from a talk by Chris Messina in 2009 at OSBridge. Had it been talked about beforehand by anyone else to your knowledge?
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tantek caseorganic - yeah - that was odd about Klint's article
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tantek I haven't heard of social network supermarkets before
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tantek also by citations, how do you cite "from an in-person conversation with person X on date Y"?
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caseorga_ Tantek: I'm not sure yet but I was thinking of using the bottom section for that
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tantek ok that makes sense. and dates are important too.
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tantek which is good because you keep track of all that stuff so well!
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caseorga_ Also locations
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tantek true!
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tantek re: 2011: IndieWebCamp Formed
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tantek name names
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caseorga_ Tantek: yes will also include images of the people
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tantek aaronpk & tantek discussed the possibility of IndieWebCamp after being both inspired and frustrated at FSWS2010
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tantek first (2011) indiewebcamp was co-founded/co-organized by aaronpk, caseorganic, crystal beasley, tantek
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caseorga_ Tantek: What do you think about also including a slide on people who have contributed early on to elements outlined in indiemark?
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tantek (all of this is on the wiki, just summarizing here)
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caseorga_ Tantek: summary is good - will make it easier to add slides
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tantek rather than IndieMark - which hasn't been very significant (yet)
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tantek I'd say a slide on discovering webmention, created by a guy in India (show name/photo of sandeep)
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caseorga_ Tantek: ok perfect
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tantek 2011 Indiewebcamp was also *builders only*
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caseorga_ Tantek: an important filtering mechanism for a new community in reaction to the frustration of being at a conference where so much talk happened
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tantek (though we allowed each builder to optionally bring *one* apprentice who was the builder's responsibility to help get them on their own)
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tantek right, we were reacting to the frustrations at FSWS2010, and also at the frustrations of mailing lists which are 99% talk, maybe 1% action.
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tantek maybe include a slide on No Email Lists (red circle and slash through Email Lists, Google Groups, mailman icons/logos etc.)
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caseorga_ Tantek: thus the decision to not have a mailing list at all. Only wiki and irc
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caseorga_ Tantek: and of course the conferences
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caseorga_ Tantek: ok good
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tantek here is a citation for my work on that - to not have a mailing list: http://microformats.org/wiki/wiki-better-than-email
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caseorga_ Tantek: great
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tantek tough lesson learned in the microformats community - even there email lists were overloaded by trolls and talkers, essayists
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caseorga_ Tantek: also worth mentioning rss/atom wars mostly fought over mailing lists as well?
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tantek hah - yeah - you can even point to their archives
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caseorga_ Tantek: ha! Ok
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tantek looks it up
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tantek www.imc.org/atom-syntax/mail-archive/
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caseorga_ Tantek*+
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caseorga_ Tantek++
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Loqi Tantek has 18 karma
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tantek They did have a wiki too btw: http://www.intertwingly.net/wiki/pie/
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tantek that's hosted on Sam Ruby's personal site
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barnabywalters good evening #indiewebcamp
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@aaronpk @aral Was just at the #quantifiedself conference in SF this week and this post came out of it... #ownyourdata http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/10/13/7/quantifiedself-ownyourdata (twitter.com/_/status/389464204375117824)
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: good evening!/morning here
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barnabywalters mafternoon ;)
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tantek caseorganic, pausing momentarily at the "What can you do" slide to change locations
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: t is reviewing my talk for keeping it Realtime Portland next week
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tantek bbiab
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caseorga_ Tantek: ok
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barnabywalters oh cool
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: yeah I have a small draft
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barnabywalters what’s the theme?
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: SILOS
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barnabywalters hopes it’s the talk we discussed after IWCUK
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: I'm giving the closing keynote
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barnabywalters BOOOOO
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barnabywalters (to silos, not closing keynote)
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: it is!! It's precisely the talk
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barnabywalters YAY
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barnabywalters wow, that was quick
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: it came out of a rant tantek gave one night at a bar. It's the "what happened in 2003" talk
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tantek caseorganic, I may want to write a small blog post about my thoughts that I shared with you on what happened in 2003 - just that part - listing of the problems/failures - would you be ok with that?
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barnabywalters ATOM and silos, right?
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barnabywalters or rather, ATOM, RSS and silos
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@aral Reading: The Future of Quantified Self Devices http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices by @aaronpk #ownyourdata #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/389465310090502144)
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: and pingbacks
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barnabywalters oh wow yeah, them
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barnabywalters so when did wordpress go from being one implementation of many to the one implementation to rule them all?
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barnabywalters I’m guessing around 2006-7?
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caseorga_ barnabywalters: actually that's a good thing to bring up and also to ask t
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tantek barnabywalters - perhaps when wordpress.com was launched?
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tantek I think that's what set that in motion
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tantek though not entirely their fault
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caseorga_ Didn't typepad have something like it too?
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tantek as other blogging solutions essentially dropped the ball (multiple times)
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barnabywalters isn’t blaming wordpress — they made a good product, nothing wrong with that
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tantek MovableType's license fumbles pretty much torpedoed their community
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barnabywalters was movabletype also an early one?
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tantek it goes to show how a premature attempt at a business model can doom a whole project and community
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tantek 2004 MovableType license fiasco
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tantek -> Wordpress momentum
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tantek 2007 Movable Type re-released under GPL
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tantek -> too little too late
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@pdugan19 RT @aral: Reading: The Future of Quantified Self Devices http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices by @aaronpk #ownyourdata #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/389466822098956288)
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tantek caseorganic, google movable type license
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caseorga_ Tantek: so because Wordpress was open from the beginning it worked better
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tantek Wordpress was *GPL* from the beginning, to be specific
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caseorga_ Moveable type was used for a lot of enterprise blogs for a while right?
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caseorga_ And then people moved to Wordpress
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tantek it didn't "work better"
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tantek it had *simpler* and *more consistent* story from the beginning
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tantek Movable Type was actually *better* in many ways, features, community etc.
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tantek back in the day
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tantek here's a good post on this: http://www.majordojo.com/2011/02/how-did-wordpress-win.php
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tantek written by "the former Product Manager of Movable Type" (!)
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caseorga_ Wow'
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tantek wow I didn't even notice this had happened just a few months ago! http://markjaquith.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/six-apart-suspends-movable-type-open-source-project/
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neuro` tantek: neither did I and I believe no one did
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tantek caseorganic, for citations like that - when someone gives you a link, and you use it / post it / cite it for other purposes, on Twitter at least the custom is to say hat-tip who you got it from, e.g. "ht: @t"
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tantek I try to keep track of that info (who I got links from) but it's often difficult.
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tantek neuro` - yeah, it is a sad story. A lot of good people put a lot of good time and effort into MT.
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tantek amazing: http://movabletype.org/news/2013/07/license_change_on_movable_type_6.html :/
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neuro` tantek: to be honest, I didn't even know MT was still deunder development
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tantek neuro` open source projects are always "under development" right? ;)
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tantek ok, *now* I'm off to change locations. :)
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@crizzirc RT @aral: Reading: The Future of Quantified Self Devices http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices by @aaronpk #ownyourdata #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/389468936749989889)
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tantek checks the logs
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Loqi shaners: bret left you a message on 10/12 at 6:37pm: Wanna meet up tomorrow at somepoint?
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barnabywalters it’d be really handy to be able to set a TTL for !tell messages
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shaners bret: ping
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caseorga_ Tantek: the ending is the weakest
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caseorga_ Tantek: but if this is the end inspiring speech then I think there should be a call to action. At least get your own domain name
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caseorga_ Tantek: although most people in this particular audience will have one, so I don't want to talk down to them. Maybe WebMention
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caseorga_ And I also want to talk about the future of IndieWeb and where it is going
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tantek caseorganic - let me finish reading through it and I'll think of something ;)
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@BakedIdea Reading http://indiewebcamp.com/Getting_Started (twitter.com/_/status/389477204469362689)
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tantek aaronpk, would be nice if Loqi used ISO-8601 dates, and 24hr time. E.g. instead of "10/12 at 6:37pm" - do "2013-10-12 at 18:37" (maybe even give the time zone or minutes/hours/days ago *in addition* to help provide time-context)
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Loqi woot!
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caseorga_ Loqi seems to like that idea
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shaners caseorga_ I'm reading your slides too.
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shaners maybe mention that interop is at the http/html level
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tantek where?
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caseorga_ shaners: ohh...they're in a very rough state.
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shaners i know. i'm not scared.
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caseorga_ shaners: could you refer to slide number in feedback?
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shaners yep. lemme find a good spot. (it was a left field thought, but i think that bit of #indiewb is an important one)
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tantek caseorganic - it might help as a follow-on to when you mention webmention
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shaners caseorga_ maybe around slide 19, in the "What was supposed to happen in 2003?" section
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caseorga_ K
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tantek shaners - it's too hard to have figured it out at that point
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tantek that's kind out of left field
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tantek however, by first discussing the example of discovering/using/adopting webmention...
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tantek it starts to provide a hint towards "just use http"
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shaners or around 34, in "IndieWeb Principles"
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tantek nah - it's not a principle
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shaners or 36 on webmention
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shaners or 38, federated comments
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shaners wherever you think is good, caseorga_. it's your jam.
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shaners :D
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tantek I'd say after 36, you can make a point about "just use http" as the lesson learned
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tantek then after 38, you can make a point about "just use HTML" as the lesson learned
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caseorga_ Tantek: so for the ending I want to give people hope that we can out of the state of the web we're in right now
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tantek because they're both useful, valid points,
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caseorga_ Tantek: good re:just use HTML
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tantek caseorganic - yeah, got it.
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tantek important to make them as separate points
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tantek because each is important
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tantek good call shaners for bringing it up
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caseorga_ Tantek: I may also add a bit about HTML lasting longer over time - easier to archive, load, preserve
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tantek they're far from widely accepted wisdom yet
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tantek too many backend programmer crowds still stuck on layering crap on top of http (instead of just using http), and using XML/JSON as a panacea when most of the time, "just use HTML(+microformats)" is good enough and simpler for everyone.
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tantek caseorganic, here's some connective material for webmention and "just use HTTP" : http://tantek.com/2013/258/t2/web-protocols-should-use-http-params-no-xml
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shaners honestly, it's the part (JUST™ http/html) the has the most traction when talking with other programmers* because they can use whatever tools they want and still play along
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tantek my experience is that programmers have different reactions to the http vs html pieces of that so mixing them often causes a cognitive dissonance
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neuro` tantek: open source projects may be abandonned
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barnabywalters HTTP APIs are much more accepted than HTML APIs, in the most commonly used sense of “API”
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tantek barnabywalters - exactly
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barnabywalters one way to describe mf2 is “making HTML as easy to consume as a JSON API”
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tantek though when people say HTTP API - they usually mean HTTP+JSON API
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barnabywalters but that explanation only resonates with a particular crowd
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tantek they leave out that detail - that they've wrapped/abstracted stuff in JSON
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tantek same folks would've claimed that Pingback is "just" and HTTP API, neglecting to mention the XML-RPC baggage
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barnabywalters even more significantly, most of the time the URL structures are completely different (e.g. twitter)
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tantek so sad/true
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barnabywalters from the public HTML version, that is
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tantek but I'm not sure that level of detail matters to a broader audience
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caseorga_ Okay, I think the first two parts of the talk are good now
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caseorga_ Good enough to proceed
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barnabywalters aaronpk: thanks for the tip about using redis for pub/sub stuff btw — set up on the pi was super easy!
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barnabywalters now we just have to make PuSH channels as easy to publish/subscribe to
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tantek barnabywalters - I remember sandeep complaining about PuSH being a pain to consume
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barnabywalters tantek: it is, even more so to try to do authenticated/private feeds
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shaners tantek caseorga_ : wrt "ht: @t", i use slash tags for this "/via @t"
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shaners http://factoryjoe.com/blog/2009/11/08/slashtags/
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shaners http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashtag
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shaners http://microsyntax.pbworks.com/w/page/20869411/Slashtags
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tantek shaners - slashtags are far too forced
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shaners not for me.
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tantek people have been using "ht:" and "cc:" etc. *far* longer
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barnabywalters shaners: I used to use slashtags a bit but decided they were ugly and served no real purpose
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tantek it's arrogant/foolish to invent a new syntax that has no advantages over existing emergent syntax
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shaners that's fine.
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barnabywalters esp. as nothing actually consumed them
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tantek @-names were emergently used on Flickr and Myspace - thus it made sense to make them a convention
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barnabywalters shaners: when you use slashtags, who/what are they for?
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shaners primarily for me. for parsing with my eyes and with code.
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tantek there was no prior art for in-text tagging, so hashtags made sense as a simple proposal, especially with *re-using* the IRC channel convention which does indicate a topic of sorts
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tantek but slashtags is just trying to be too clever with a name "slashtags" rather than being clever with researching/re-using existing behavior.
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barnabywalters “with code” — you have running code out there which actually looks a slashtags? what does it do?
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tantek (i.e. slashtags rhymes with hashtags and thus is just trying to capitalize on the popularity of hashtags)
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tantek should just write a short tirade post on why no slashtags.
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shaners that's not true, tantek. chris didn't originally call them that. he called it "the slasher". someone else pointed out the "slashtags" name possibility.
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shaners see the factoryjoe URL above
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shaners barnabywalters: i've written one off scripts to parse through a collection of toots to pull out @users that i was /cc'ing a lot or reposting from /via.
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shaners also, i like a leading sigil better than a trailing one.
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tantek except for the whole existing practice bit
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tantek shaners - appreciate the correction
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tantek "the slasher" - lol
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shaners right?
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shaners but still. my point at the beginning of this thread and still now is that *I use* /slashtags. not *you should* use /slashtags.
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shaners tantek: we don't all do the same things all the time for the same reasons.
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yeah! redis is great.
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tantek shaners - put another way, experimentation encouraged :)
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aaronpk barnabywalters: have you looked at the new PuSH protocol? I haven't really dug into it since the first version
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shaners part of this whole indieweb jam is that we document all the different ways that we do stuff now. and see what shakes out.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: best part is, if i need a few little random key/value persistence, I already have a connection open too
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tantek shaners - and the criticism thereof
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barnabywalters aaronpk: just reading through it now. it actually looks really nice
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tantek hence the points I made above
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aaronpk barnabywalters: totally, great for caching and stuff, also queuing
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barnabywalters but the nice parts aren’t what’s implemented everywhere already :(
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shaners tantek: i agree with you that "experimentation encouraged", but your tone and tactics don't sound like "experimentation encouraged" above. they sound like "don't use slashtags!"
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aaronpk barnabywalters: the next thing I need is a subscriber that can read my mentions feed and send me push notifications http://aaronparecki.com/mentions
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tantek shaners - it's a mix of perspectives
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barnabywalters aaronpk: yeah. indieweb gurdy just needs a power supply and I can start using it in real life!
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tantek shaners - I do think slashtags have been debunked sufficiently to abandon
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shaners nah, i'm good.
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I want to build a bunch of small analysis apps which I can plug my/other feeds into and get interesting stuff out
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shaners p-* is easier to parse because of a leading sigil. same's true for me with /*.
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aaronpk I think I've used the /cc and /via syntax more than cc: and via:
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tantek right, keep on keeping on. maybe you'll discover something new about them that we haven't figured out yet in the 4+ years they've been in the wild
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aaronpk not really sure why, haven't thought too much about it
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barnabywalters like graphs — first target is my old #steps data
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shaners tantek: do you do anything programmatically with cc: and via: ?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: yeah! you saw my QS post from Friday?
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tantek no - just for human consumption
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tantek which I do think is paramount in human text
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barnabywalters aaronpk: I did! great write-up, matches my thinking exactly
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tantek so I put a high priority on re-using established human text punctuation conventions
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aaronpk sweet. I want to start building this in really small pieces
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aaronpk a thing that visualizes your steps woudl be a great first start
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shaners tantek: funny thing is, i've used /slashtags is hand written text now. they've crept into my life proper. :D
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barnabywalters aaronpk: another thing I found I really enjoyed about using redis for my gurdy pi data was that I could use new things which interest me (e.g. node.js, go) for small pieces without having to port everything to a new langauge
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tantek shaners - you're just too slashleet ;)
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shaners aaronpk barnabywalters: i think the M7 motion co-processor is gonna be awesome toward the goal of IndieQS
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shaners tantek :P
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aaronpk shaners: I'm super excited about the M7. I'm going to write a simple step counting app when I get my new phone
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shaners tantek aaronpk: remember that 13yo iOS dev at #xoxo?
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barnabywalters shaners: indeed! would be fun to try to make a small device which does a similar thing without having to buy an iPhone too
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tantek shaners, sort of? I don't allocate much memory for propriety platform ephemera
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shaners i talked him up on the idea of basically a personal fitibt ala M7/indieweb site. he was into it.
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aaronpk barnabywalters: totally! I love that I have a really small node.js script I use for websockets and being able to pass data between node.js and php with no big deal
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tantek shaners - nice! convert those distracted by proprietary platforms/APIs
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barnabywalters aaronpk: the trade-off is fragility and lack of thingness, which matters a lot to me
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aaronpk lack of thingness?
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barnabywalters yeah, the difference between a musical instrument and the setups used by most electronic music performers
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shaners tantek: what i'm excitebike about with the M7 potential is that I *already* carry my iPhone all the time. i'd like to not have as many things on me. e.g. fitbit
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barnabywalters one is a self-contained Thing
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barnabywalters the other is a fragile system
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barnabywalters trade offs are modularity, complexity, fragility and aesthetics
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aaronpk barnabywalters: makes sense
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aaronpk shaners: if I built a simple step counting app that posted data to an API endpoint you configured int he app would you use it?
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shaners heck yes.
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shaners ps, i don't have a 5S yet. that's my post-FHC5 present to myself
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aaronpk cool, I have a plan now for how to start implementing this future http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/10/11/1/the-future-of-quantified-self-devices
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shaners aaronpk: and i'd keep using my fitbit so we can compare datums
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shaners aaronpk: Oh, I already read that. ;)
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barnabywalters btw, anyone who wasn’t around over the last few days: http://waterpigs.co.uk/extensions/weave/
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barnabywalters reviews/bug reports much appreciated
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aaronpk barnabywalters: wow awesome, I haven't actually looked at that on my computer yet
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shaners barnabywalters: i found a bug last night.
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shaners lemme repro it
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barnabywalters shaners: oooh, thanks
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shaners shit. what toot was it?
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shaners aaronpk: someone indieweby replied to you yesterday.
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barnabywalters https://github.com/barnabywalters/weave is a good place to file issues
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aaronpk barnabywalters: you should add a note about chrome extension warning https://support.google.com/chrome_webstore/answer/2664769?p=crx_warning&rd=1
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caseorganic tantek: ok, i am going to add the info to my slides
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tantek caseorganic - um, context? which info? ;)
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barnabywalters aaronpk: bah, I should just shell out the $5 google demands
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caseorganic tantek: feedback you gave me above
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tantek well I figured that ;)
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aaronpk oh is that waht it takes?
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barnabywalters make it up by donating to mozilla or EFF or something
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caseorganic tantek: the hardest part will be the ending
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barnabywalters yeah, to put things in the chrome web store
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barnabywalters f
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barnabywalters for “verification”
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tantek keeps getting distracted by other threads in #indiewebcamp to finish reviewing caseorganic's slides and suggest more ending thoughts
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caseorganic tantek: i noticed ;)
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shaners barnabywalters: does weave work on tweet permalinks or only The Feed?
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aaronpk barnabywalters: it should also rewrite the link on the timestamp to the original post's URL
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barnabywalters shaners: currently only the feed, permalinks coming next version
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tantek whoa that would be cool too!
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shaners ok.
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barnabywalters hmm, it should already rewrite permalinks — what tweet is it not working on?
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tantek +1 on shaners and aaronpk suggestions
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aaronpk yours ;)
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shaners barnabywalters: i found it
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barnabywalters huh, okay. must have broken something
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barnabywalters checks
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shaners goto: https://twitter.com/aaronpk
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aaronpk yeah it's not working on a user profile page either
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shaners yeah it is
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barnabywalters what browsers are you guys using?
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aaronpk chrome
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shaners Safari.app latest
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aaronpk none of the ones on twitter.com/aaronpk expand for me
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shaners compare this toot permalink : https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/389262528338862080
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barnabywalters I see the in-feed relative timestamp links correctly rewritten
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@aaronpk @benwerd This has been happening to me too for a while. Luckily (?) I have a Google Calendar tab open almost all... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/10/12/2/
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barnabywalters checks on chrome
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tantek.com created /citation (+1402) "stub a start - a bit surprised this didn't exist already" (view diff)
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shaners aaronpk's 6 toot down on his twitter page right now
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shaners originally said "@benwerd This has been happening to me too for a while. Luckily (?) I have a Google Calendar tab open almost all... "
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shaners (see https://twitter.com/aaronpk/status/389262528338862080 )
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@aaronpk @benwerd This has been happening to me too for a while. Luckily (?) I have a Google Calendar tab open almost all... http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/10/12/2/
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barnabywalters oh, on a reply tweet?
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barnabywalters this is probably because I’m faking having a microformats parser, and it’s finding the wrong URL
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shaners in the feed, it get's transmogrified into "Spam calendar invites. That's a new one for me."
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shaners yeah, on the reply toot.
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shaners when you parse out the citation short url ( aaron.pk/r4SW2 ), you get a note page with a reply context of benwerd's original note
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barnabywalters yeah, that’s the text of the replied-to note. I’ll use gjones’s mf parser in the next version
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shaners and because that original is first, its content is getting rewritten on top of aaronpk's actual toot in the feed
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barnabywalters currently weave is just looking for the first .e-content, which is fragile and silly
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shaners make sense?
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aaronpk ah thats what you mean by "faking"
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tantek.com edited /citation (+20) "' plus h-card props" (view diff)
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barnabywalters argh that chrome warning is extremely irritating. I’m the user, why can’t I choose whether or not to trust it
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shaners no such warning in Safari.app ;)
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barnabywalters esp. when it’s already asked me if I want to discard or continue
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aaronpk yeah not a fan of that flow
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tantek re: "spam calendar invites". Yeah, email must die.
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tantek it's only going to get worse
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barnabywalters shaners: FF has the best extension installation flow (and upload flow), followed by opera, followed by safari
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barnabywalters chrome probably works really well if you pay google
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tantek what is that? UI blackmail? pay us or else you get a crappy UX!
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Loqi that is soooo strange
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shaners barnabywalters: does FF still require that the app be quit/restarted before the extension is active?
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tantek hahaha
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Loqi rofl
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shaners lollerskates
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barnabywalters shaners: only for extensions which hook into FF’s UI
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shaners ah. ok.
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barnabywalters not for ones which just use JS/HTML, like weave
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shaners word
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barnabywalters and the upload process is *amazing*. they have a web UI which runs a bunch of tests over the extension automatically
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barnabywalters everyone else just has a boring form which gets picky over image dimensions :(
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aaronpk lol
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barnabywalters seriously, apple and opera can’t figure out how to resize an image
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shaners THAT'S HARD! ;)
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aaronpk and it doesn't scale
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aaronpk clearly facebook and flickr are the only ones who are allowde to resize photos at webscale
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barnabywalters oh, I take that back, opera can resize. it’s actually chrome which can’t
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barnabywalters they can’t resize and image, and they want me to pay *them*?!
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barnabywalters s/and im/an im
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: they can’t resize an image, and they want me to pay *them*?!
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@t Brace yourselves, the spam calendar invitations are coming: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/389116829920026624 #efail #indieweb original: http://tantek.com/2013/286/t3/brace-yourselves-spam-calendar-invitations-efail (twitter.com/_/status/389495983648026624)
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shaners tantek: did you change your attribution URL strategy? https://twitter.com/t/status/389495983648026624
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@t Brace yourselves, the spam calendar invitations are coming:
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@hakkiocal RT @t: Brace yourselves, the spam calendar invitations are coming: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/389116829920026624 #efail #indieweb original: http://tantek.com/2013/286/t3/brace-yourselves-spam-calendar-invitations-efail (twitter.com/_/status/389496239374757888)
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tantek shaners - hah - double-meaning
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tantek (unintended)
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tantek oh darn - Twitter doesn't show embedded tweet meta-info when you http link to them instead of https
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tantek deleted
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aaronpk oh hah, the full version has benwerd's tweet after original:
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tantek goes through gymnastics to delete/repost
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shaners so… still using (ttk.me t4SX3)
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@t Brace yourselves, the spam calendar invitations are coming: https://twitter.com/benwerd/status/389116829920026624 #efail #indieweb original: http://tantek.com/2013/286/t3/brace-yourselves-spam-calendar-invitations-efail (twitter.com/_/status/389496878792192002)
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tantek nope, that wasn't it. apparently Twitter only shows embedded preview content on the last link in a tweet.
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tantek lame
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aaronpk even if there is non :(
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tantek I don't always link to Medium posts, but when I do they're about not using your phone: https://medium.com/architecting-a-life/5e9d57919f06
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aaronpk oh, ipad instead? yeah I can get behind that
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barnabywalters tantek: that post mirrors my experiences almost exactly
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barnabywalters especially wrt the social implications of using a larger form-factor device instead of a smartphone
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aaronpk especially with 4G, that's like all the good parts of havin g a phone
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barnabywalters oh, fascinating affordance on that last bullet point
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barnabywalters “(Leave a comment on this bullet point to suggest your own hack.)”
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aaronpk horrrible resulting UI, but yea it's interesting :)
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tantek yeah that is interesting
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tantek.com created /citations (+22) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /giving-credit (+2466) "stub with citations, via, ht" (view diff)
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tantek I think I've sufficiently popped the stack to return to reviewing caseorganic's slides. So, momentary walk/bio break to reset cache memory.
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caseorganic tantek: k
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shaners pop POP!
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caseorganic tantek: found a question you asked earlier " I may want to write a small blog post about my thoughts that I shared with you on what happened in 2003 - just that part - listing of the problems/failures - would you be ok with that?"
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caseorganic tantek: yes, i'm okay with that
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tantek yes! great. thank you.
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caseorganic tantek: i'd like to read it
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caseorganic tantek: but it would be great to keep this talk a surprise for the audience at keeping it realtime
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caseorganic tantek: so if you publish after or on the day i talk (sat) then it won't give away the punchline
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tantek I've been thinking about it ever since I read Anil Dash's "The Web We Lost" and strongly felt that he was leaving out key parts of the story, perhaps unconsciously selectively.
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tantek It really bugged me - like inaccurate portrayals of history you lived/worked through.
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caseorganic tantek: good and important
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tantek caseorganic - I don't plan on providing any punchlines in my post
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tantek just historical documentation
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tantek also, I love how we talk about keeping things a surprise in an open IRC channel that's logged publicly with really nicely discoverable markup ;)
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tantek (just sayin')
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caseorganic tantek: i'm worried that if you do that people will say, 'yeah, we just read that on the internet' when i get to the 2003 part and i'll have to remove it from my slides
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caseorganic tantek: well, it's still a small community ;)
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tantek nah - that nearly never happens caseorganic
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tantek the opposite in fact
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caseorganic tantek: ok good
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tantek when people hear similar/same messages from multiple people
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tantek it increases the credibility/acceptance
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caseorganic tantek: because they'll get more context about it in the talk, and because it's recent news people will be prepped to want more
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tantek like, oh yeah, I heard about this
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caseorganic tantek: great! ok
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tantek right - people usually don't read blog posts thoroughly anyway - tl;dr and all that
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tantek they skim and get a "feeling" for it
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tantek so much so that when you cover details in synchronous real time (a "talk" at a "conference"), even if/when you mention details that I may have blogged, such details will feel "new" to them
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caseorganic tantek: excellent!
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tantek there's a misplaced anxiety over "scoops" in online media that makes very little sense in general
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tantek perhaps for big/popular memes/people (e.g. Apple or movie stars), but for anything industry specific / detailed, I think it's better when people get primed a bit
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tantek but that's just my anecdotal experience with these things
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tantek is curious to hear others' impressions
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tantek resumes reviewing caseorganic preso starting at the "What can you do" slide.
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tantek has skimmed the rest of the slides
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tantek caseorganic: re: 2011: IndieWebCamp Formed -
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tantek in "Must have your own domain name to attend" might want to mention - indiewebcamp wiki used OpenID for that
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tantek helps demonstrate use of existing tech before replacing with better tech
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caseorganic great ok
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aaronpk tantek: recommendation for coffee shop for getting work done a couple blocks from duboce park?
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tantek that way when you transition in the 2012 site to say IndieWebCamp.com switched from OpenID to IndieAuth - you have a story to tell there
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caseorganic ok good
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caseorganic and then define indieauth
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tantek s/site/slide
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Loqi tantek meant to say: that way when you transition in the 2012 slide to say IndieWebCamp.com switched from OpenID to IndieAuth - you have a story to tell there
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tantek based on RelMeAuth - easier to markup, easier to consume, simpler
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caseorganic great
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aaronpk sounds like Bean There is reasonable: http://www.yelp.com/biz/bean-there-san-francisco
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tantek yeah Lower Haight is rough
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shaners bret: what's your afternoon / evening looking like?
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shaners still wanna get together and hack a bit?
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bret ack hey shaners
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shaners hi!
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shaners if you're busy, nbd. we can do it next weekend.
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bret i was pulled into a project on campus all weekend
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bret fun installing windows xp
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bret :/
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tantek aaronpk - curious how bean there has done
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bret yeah, it would work better next weekend
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bret shaners: unfortunately, this whole weekend/week is going to be super busy
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bret for me
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shaners no problem
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tantek.com edited /Events (+1) "move past events to recent" (view diff)
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tantek that thing where you lose track of which window had the current tab that you were focusing on and so you start going through windows trying to close tabs and they remind you of other things to do
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bret shaners: what time are you leaving tomorrow??
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shaners Early O'Clock™
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bret doh
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bret maaaan :(
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tantek whoa - apparently video was taken/posted from the Personal Cloud meetup talks that benwerd, myself and others gave!
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tantek plugs in the headphones
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tantek caseorganic - you may find this useful - as a 5min overview of IndieWeb principles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NUbLJ-Q3Ck
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tantek please feel free to copy all points made in that talk and re-use them in yours
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tantek Thank you Joseph Boyle for taking and posting that video!
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tantek whoa - YouTube share UI has been greatly simplified with a big fat input box to copy the youtu.be shortlink from!
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tantek when did that happen?
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tantek (and they added a nice "[ ] Start at: [5:08]" checkbox to boot!)
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aaronpk nice! yeah youtube has been making tons of little improvements, i've been pleasantly surprised
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tantek oh man, need to take some screenshots - they've really cleaned things up, and these are good UI examples to capture for our own indieweb deconstruction/reconstruction
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tantek aaronpk - also, I'm particularly pleased with how the talk went - in rewatching/listening to it - I didn't realize I packed in so much in to 5 minutes and ended with a solid closer!
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tantek (if I don't say so myself ;) )
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aaronpk sweet! I will have to watch it!
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tantek wait - how do we not have a silo stub page for YouTube?!?
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tantek.com created /youtube (+21) "redirect to their capitalization" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Youtube (+21) "redirect to their capitalization" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Flickr (+70) "Flickr does video too" (view diff)
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tantek is stubbing a YouTube page
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tantek "stubbing"
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tantek.com uploaded /File:YouTube_video_permalink_2013-10-13.png "screenshot of a YouTube video permalink showing their permalink UI and in particular their sharing UI which has been greatly improved"
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acegiak aaronpk: apparently my webmentions are working... excessively so?
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acegiak oh wait, on refresh the double comment disappears. possibly duplicated just in the live update?
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acegiak aaronpk: what I saw was my reply appear twice in the comments stream
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tantek.com created /YouTube (+2254) "stub with UI, screenshot, summary of issues from /why, See Also" (view diff)
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tantek hey acegiak - welcome!
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acegiak tantek: hey, haven't been in here in a while. been focusing on my game
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acegiak saw the live comments thing and thought I'd see if pfefferle's webmentions plugin is working for me, apparently it is