#indiewebcamp 2013-09-03

2013-09-03 UTC
tantek and matthewlmcclure joined the channel
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aaronpk WRT the problem of inserting past posts when my URLs are numbered sequentially, I'm thinking about moving to an entirely timestamp-based URL scheme
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aaronpk then as long as I don't have two posts on the same second I won't collide
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aaronpk this URL http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/09/01/1/mint would become http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2013/09/01/9W/mint (9W = 9:30 in newbase60. I could assume a 2-char time portion implies ":00" seconds)
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aaronpk the time portion would be based in the local timezone of the post just like the date portion is
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aaronpk this would let me go back and insert a post at 8:30am (/8W) if I needed to later
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aaronpk for example, when syncing posts created while offline!
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aaronpk curious about your thoughts in particular, tantek
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tantek oh hello
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aaronpk hi. been IRL most of today.
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tantek me too
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tantek but watching logs
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aaronpk same
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@paaast RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374730660248035328)
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tantek btw NewBase60 makes for particularly good H:M:S compression
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aaronpk exactly
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tantek I mean, you can keep the 3 digits
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aaronpk ah yea, guess I don't really need to save the 1 char
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tantek each of H,M,S uses exactly 1 NewBase60 digit
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tantek precisely
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aaronpk yea that was why I wanted to new it in particular to compress the time component
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aaronpk s/new/use/
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Loqi aaronpk meant to say: yea that was why I wanted to use it in particular to compress the time component
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aaronpk wtf
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tantek I did consider this in the design of NewBase60 - of how it would be applicable to minutes/seconds particularly well
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aaronpk if the year weren't 36*5* days it would be awesome for compressing the day too :P
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tantek and the nice thing is, the first digit (hours) is particularly readable since it's just 0-9A-N
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tantek or rather, guessable
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tantek easily decodable - not necessarily readable, until you get good at decoding ;)
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tantek aaronpk - the 36*5* problem is precisely why I decided to go with "days since epoch start"
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tantek which fits nicely in 3 digits
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aaronpk ah yea that's good
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tantek thus 3 digits for the date, and 3 for the h:m:s
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tantek that's why I chose epoch start days
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aaronpk so my short URLs would be 6 chars exactly
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tantek I almost decided to do that
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tantek and then realized I didn't post often enough
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aaronpk er, 7 cause of the post type
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tantek your short paths at least ;)
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aaronpk yeah I prefer the more readable and longer format for the full URL
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tantek definitely
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tantek !tell barnabywalters since you were conversing back/forth with Aral, want to reply to https://twitter.com/aral/status/373919098805440512 with a link to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup ?
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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tantek oh neat - Loqi is smart enough not to expand tweet URLs in !tell messages
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aaronpk fsvo "smart"
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tantek ;)
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aaronpk still haven't heard back from him on https://twitter.com/aral/status/374284770454536193
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@aral @aaronpk Thanks, Aaron, will read tomorrow :)
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tantek it's probably because your post completely debunked his ;)
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aaronpk heh
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neuro` Morning
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tantek evening :)
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tantek neuro` we decided to move xtof to "creators"
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neuro` tantek: and you were right. I backlogged last night.
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neuro` I think he confused Indiewebcamp in general and indiewebcamp UK for that apprentice thing.
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neuro` And translation is still creation.
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tantek indeed it is
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tantek so is customizing wordpress or plugins etc.
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neuro` I think we all agreed that xtof's not an apprentice anyway.
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tantek indeed
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tantek hello gjones!
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tantek looks like are at capacity for IndieWebCampUK
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gjones tantek your right its a shame the venue will not allow more people, there is space but they have a limit for the whole building and there are other events on - Aral should ask to see if we could up it a little
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tantek yeah
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tantek do you know the capacity of each room?
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tantek hello LauraJ
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LauraJ morning folks
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gjones It depends on how they are setup, the max capacity for the main room is 60 people - we do skillswap meet ups there and you can get that many in if you have the seats in rows. The other room max is 30 people
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tantek ok
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gjones I will DM Aral now and ask the question
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tantek cool - we should note the room capacities on the wiki
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tantek LauraJ - want to add yourself to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc-people ?
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tantek gjones - current wiki says 30 people and 15 people: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Space
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tantek (capacity in the rooms)
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gjones That's because the rooms are going to be setup around tables and those are the rough number of seats for that type setup. We can move things around if we need to fit in more people in
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tantek oh ok - that sounds good
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tantek I wonder if we may use the lobby for small discussions
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gjones Aral is going to ask today, its still only 7:30am here! Sounds like we may get some flexibility on numbers - will get back to the list when I find out more
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tantek great
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gjones I think the main lobby will have an exhib on part of brightondigitalfestival.co.uk and one of the reason for the overall number limits
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tantek speaking of brightondigital - were we able to get added?
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LauraJ tantek: can do - sadly not going to make it in person
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tantek oh sorry to hear that!
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tantek maybe remote participation?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Remote_Participants
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@aral Facebook and Google will offer you the Freeternet. Ask: why is it free? What’s is their business model? #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784417602232320)
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LauraJ tantek: we'll see - kinda busy organising okcon.org ;)
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tantek gjones any chance of getting IndieWebCampUk listed in http://www.brightondigitalfestival.co.uk/events/?filter_dates=7,8 ?
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@aral The Freeternet is not the Internet. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784523768463360)
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@aral There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784644396642304)
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@renedx RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784719676014592)
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@nternetinspired RT @aral: Facebook and Google will offer you the Freeternet. Ask: why is it free? What’s is their business model? #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784771727310848)
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@braempje RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374784872378015745)
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gjones I am a stack out with a lot of other stuff and the process involves creating artwork etc - but I will see if I can look at it late tonight
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tantek LauraJ - cool - open knowledge sounds good
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tantek can you simply use the IndieWebCamp logo as is?
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tantek (gjones can you simply use the IndieWebCamp logo as is?)
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@aral Free is one of the most confusing words in the English language. Free as in liberty = good Free as in cost = not always good #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374785664472350720)
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tantek gjones - see: http://indiewebcamp.com/press-kit
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tantek.com created /logo (+23) "for now" (view diff)
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gjones I will have a look at tonight, I need to get on with work as I have a full day ahead and not much time to get everything done :)
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@notatibm RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374795291364712448)
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@prashantsani RT @aral: Facebook and Google will offer you the Freeternet. Ask: why is it free? What’s is their business model? #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374798501726527488)
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nightlight.ws edited /2013/UK (+372) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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@jantjeman RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374802279049994240)
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@8DH RT @aral: Facebook and Google will offer you the Freeternet. Ask: why is it free? What’s is their business model? #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374803910319288320)
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@CraigGrannell RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374806740896088065)
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@sockethub @snarfed_org thanks for the kind words. your project is a great piece for an indieweb server and could compliment future sockethub apps (twitter.com/_/status/374808410509701120)
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@julien51 RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374808426142248960)
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@ianc14 RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374810091997765632)
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@AzraQ RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374811374053888000)
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melvster so google play will now take over your phone ... great
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melvster "If you ever question the power of Google Play Services, try disabling it. Nearly every Google App on your device will break."
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lbj.org.uk edited /IRC_People (+47) "added lauraj" (view diff)
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@dannystewart RT @aral: “Google Play Services is Google’s new platform.” (And it’s closed.) http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/09/balky-carriers-and-slow-oems-step-aside-google-is-defragging-android/ Ht @0xabad1dea #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374824893457891328)
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 6 hours, 41 minutes ago: since you were conversing back/forth with Aral, want to reply to https://twitter.com/aral/status/373919098805440512 with a link to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup ?
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrAWo/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (pingback)
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barnabywalters tantek: done http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrAWo/
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neuro` barnabywalters: your reply context UI is great
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barnabywalters neuro`: thanks!
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barnabywalters hopefully it’s helpful for others to build on
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barnabywalters I basically copied twitter and then evolved it to handle some issues I was finding
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barnabywalters like adding a max-height after replying to an article :)
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@DigitalBrighton Latest #BDF2013 event: #indiewebcamp 2013! http://www.brightondigitalfestival.co.uk/events/indiewebcamp-uk-2013/ (twitter.com/_/status/374842979342483456)
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@ZapArtUK RT @DigitalBrighton: Latest #BDF2013 event: #indiewebcamp 2013! http://www.brightondigitalfestival.co.uk/events/indiewebcamp-uk-2013/ (twitter.com/_/status/374843366376108032)
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@fruitingbodies Genuine question: why is there only 1 women out of 28 creators on #indiewebcamp guest list? http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Guest_List (twitter.com/_/status/374844167823708160)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+157) "/* Guest List */ Added big red “full” warning, moved Mime Cuvalo to waiting list" (view diff)
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barnabywalters https://twitter.com/aral/status/374843814319775744
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@aral @BarnabyWalters Thanks, interesting points. Although I believe we’re missing the forest for the trees (problem with point”by”point replies).
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@BarnabyWalters @cuv82 really sorry but I had to move you to the waiting list for IndieWebCampUK — we’re at capacity, currently… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrAqh/ (twitter.com/_/status/374847132312027136)
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cweiske barnabywalters, about the followup: "Compare with: https://dev.twitter.com/docs/auth/sign-twitter (how Twitter sign-in works and how to set it up)." - most users ever read that
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cweiske so that's a moot comparison
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cweiske how to setup indieauth vs. twitter auth
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cweiske users only click the twitter login button, they don't have to read the dev specs
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barnabywalters cweiske: that original argument was faulty anyway, I explicitly said the three point list was an accurate description of the things which have to be in place for indieauth to work
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barnabywalters NOT a process
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barnabywalters the process could be clicking on a twitter connect button
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barnabywalters and in some cases (storytlr) it is
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barnabywalters conflating an accurate technical description with an end-user process is a faulty argument
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cweiske but the difference is that as *end user*, you have to follow the technical description for indieauth
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cweiske you don't have for twitter
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barnabywalters cweiske: not true — if you use storytlr, you can click a button
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cweiske barnabywalters, but not for your setup
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barnabywalters cweiske: this is true. however, my setup is for me to use
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cweiske wait
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cweiske I didn't mean your own specific setup
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barnabywalters and because I understand indieauth, I didn’t need to build a system to make it easy
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barnabywalters then which setup?
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cweiske I mean everyone's setup
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cweiske before he can use indieauth
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barnabywalters everyone’s setup is different and therefore the process of setting up indieauth will vary in difficulty+complexity
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cweiske but you still have to read the tech specs for indieauth
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barnabywalters cweiske: no, whoever developed the tools you’re using has to
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barnabywalters just like people developing tools for twitter have to read the tech specs
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cweiske but the end users that want to sign in don't have to read the twitter dev specs
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cweiske for indie auth, users that simply want to sign in have to do a setup on their seite
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cweiske s/seite/site/
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Loqi cweiske meant to say: for indie auth, users that simply want to sign in have to do a setup on their site
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barnabywalters yes, just like people who want to be able to log in with twitter need to set up a twitter account
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barnabywalters at the moment, it’s a lot easier to set up a twitter account
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barnabywalters hopefully, that will not always be the case
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barnabywalters in fact, the twitter sign-up process can be quite a pain — verifying email addresses, going through the tour where they try to get you to follow a bunch of celebrities
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barnabywalters there’s potential for indieweb set up processes to be much quicker and easier
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barnabywalters but we’re not at the stage where that is a high priority for many of us
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@itsracine Experience”driven Open Source (XO) http://indiedata.org (twitter.com/_/status/374447081337135104)
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cweiske the initial point I made was that you're comparing apples with oranges when comparing indieauth end user setup specs with twitter dev specs
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barnabywalters at the moment indieauth dev specs are also the end user specs IN SOME CASES e.g. if you’re building from scratch. if using a tool like storytlr the end user specs are “click this twitter connect button”
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@gavinwye Brighton friends I'm hanging this weekend after @dconstruct was planning on going to @indiewebcampuk but it's full anyone fancy meeting up? (twitter.com/_/status/374857325624193024)
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@xtof_fr 30 participants #indiewebcamp : http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Guest_List @t @fdevillamil : @nicolas2fr will help us to support #indieweb in hreflang="fr" (twitter.com/_/status/374863018649079810)
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@aral Upcoming events: Sept/Oct 2013 http://aralbalkan.com/scribbles/upcoming-events-september-and-october-2013/ BDF, my residency at Lighthouse, Prometheus, #indiedata, talks at 7 conferences, … (twitter.com/_/status/374874529811939328)
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@i_am_prometheus RT @aral: Upcoming events: Sept/Oct 2013 http://aralbalkan.com/scribbles/upcoming-events-september-and-october-2013/ BDF, my residency at Lighthouse, Prometheus, #indiedata, talks at 7 confe… (twitter.com/_/status/374874608400609280)
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@onishiweb RT @aral: Upcoming events: Sept/Oct 2013 http://aralbalkan.com/scribbles/upcoming-events-september-and-october-2013/ BDF, my residency at Lighthouse, Prometheus, #indiedata, talks at 7 confe… (twitter.com/_/status/374876435892436992)
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@indiewebcamp @fruitingbodies good q. Portland #indiewebcamp is ~25% women. Last year #IndieWebCampUK also had only 1 woman. Join us @IndieWebCampUK! (twitter.com/_/status/374886526523412480)
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barnabywalters Regarding gender balance at indiewebcamp UK, I have been wondering about it too
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barnabywalters I know of two women who expressed interest but for reasons cited didn’t sign up:
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barnabywalters https://twitter.com/laurakalbag/status/371964931266338816
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@laurakalbag I need to sign up for @IndieWebCampUK, but I keep giving up because hoops.
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barnabywalters https://twitter.com/nd_kane/status/371965507382951936
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@nd_kane @laurakalbag I need to sign up but aside from numerous hoops, lack of apparent self-usefullness. @IndieWebCampUK
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barnabywalters also worth noting that at least three people on the list identify as non-programmers (xtof, Leonardo) or “writer more than tinkerer” (Corey Pein)
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@helloanselm Oh I particularly don't like @lanyrd being part of @eventbrite. Strongly think we need some independence here. #indieweb +ping @tobiastom (twitter.com/_/status/374894093312483328)
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@BarnabyWalters @helloanselm some of us @indiewebcamp-ers have been working on independent event hosting and cross-site RSVPs, check… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrE1j/ (twitter.com/_/status/374894990914506752)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrE1j/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/event (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrE1j/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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tantek whoa eventbrite bought lanyrd?!?
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tantek wow congrats to the Lanyrd crew - I hope they're able to maintain their permalinks :/
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tantek http://lanyrd.com/blog/2013/eventbrite/
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barnabywalters yep, sounds like they’re keeping lanyrd.com up
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@FrankDelporte The #indiedata movement aims to create, support, and popularize products to own your digital self (data, tools,...) - http://aralbalkan.com/notes/indie-data/ (twitter.com/_/status/374899438361145344)
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jordan.io edited /2013/UK (+249) "/* Remote Participants */ added myself" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - we've had many noshows for IndieWebCamp in Portland
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tantek we should add a note like wait list folks are almost certain to get in
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tantek or at least about first 10 on the waitlist
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Loqi yea
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tantek based on experience
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barnabywalters tantek: okay, you know more about it than me
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barnabywalters it’d be a pity to disappoint people if it turns out they can’t get in
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tantek it's been more a pity to have unused capacity when people were eager to use it
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tantek besides there's plenty to do at the Brighton Digital Festival that weekend even if we're full up
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barnabywalters absolutely
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tantek so that makes it better
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barnabywalters provided there’s sufficient warning
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tantek ok so for IndieWebCamp 2013, out of 50 (full) slots, we had:
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tantek 4 people drop out "last minute" (anywhere from a day to morning of) - and gave notice
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Regrets
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tantek and 10 people just "no show" and not give any notice
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/Guest_List#Missed_You
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tantek (yes we're keeping track who signed up and didn't even bother to send regrets therefore blocking others from signing up when we were full)
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tantek as people gave notice we added people from the wait list
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tantek but just FYI - we 20% pure no-show at IWC 2013
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tantek so if we have a similar % at IWCUK 2013, then that ~6 people
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barnabywalters yep, that works out
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tantek ok I'll leave it up to you to decide on the wording for the wiki (both the red text and top of the Wait List section)
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tantek just asked adactio to add himself to the Creators list
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+231) "/* Creators */ added optimism" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+63) "/* Creators */ clarification" (view diff)
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+181) "/* Waiting List */ added note about cancellations and possible extra space to waiting list description" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: ^^ for your review
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (-1) "/* Waiting List */ removed excess column" (view diff)
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barnabywalters we’ll have to find a bigger venue for next year :)
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tantek yes! this is a good problem to have.
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tantek speaking of which - we should be posting (bragging :) ) about IndieWebCampUK filling up!
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tantek (and encouraging more waitlist sign-ups)
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barnabywalters despite aforementioned sign-up barrier
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tantek it means the sign-up barrier worked actually
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tantek as a good filtering mechanism
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barnabywalters indeed
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tantek congrats to all those that completed the sign-up quest! :)
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adactio.com edited /2013/UK (+280) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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neuro` Yeah, was really a bitchy UX nightmare (sorry, was easy)
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tantek neuro` you should post about how easy it was.
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tantek too many whingers out there ;)
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neuro` tantek: I had an issue signing up because of http(s), that would be a lie then :)
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tantek neuro` maybe point that out ;)
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adactio I disagree. I think it's a real shame that people like Laura and Natalie were putting off coming to the event. We run the risk of being seen as elitist and unwelcoming to newcomers.
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tantek adactio - hence we have the apprenticeship option
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neuro` adactio: why were they refused?
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tantek neuro` I think the question is why were they putting off
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adactio I think the apprenticeship demarkation is a bit condescending.
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neuro` translating putting off as it doesn't seem to mean what I thought
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tantek adactio - here in the US it has really helped filter out the blowhards (who have typically dominated social web discussions)
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tantek and in that regard, yes, forcing blowhards to confront themselves with apprenticeship (which yes, is hierarchically below being a creator) self-selected them out
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barnabywalters Laura and Natalie seem to be talented designers+developers who are very capable of adding rel=me to their sites, from their tweets it sounded like they don’t see enough value in the event to want to participate
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barnabywalters but I could easily be misinterpreting that
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neuro` I'll +1 adactio on that one, but which word should we use then? padawan?
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tantek neuro` indeed. and padawan is an apprentic
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tantek s/apprentic/apprentice
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Loqi tantek meant to say: neuro` indeed. and padawan is an apprentice
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neuro` tantek: I know, but it sounds less condescending (imo)
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adactio I think you're missing the point: separating people into buckets (whatever those buckets are called) isn't great, in my opinion.
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tantek neuro` maybe this is cultural? in the US, being someone's apprentice is not a bad thing.
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tantek adactio - we've had to (separating people into buckets) in order to be productive
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neuro` tantek: probably.
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tantek all previous social/identity web gathering like things have been very unproductive because of blowhards
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LauraJ it depends on the support structures offered to the apprentice - i'd be happy to be an apprentice if it meant people would help me, but not if i was just allocated to an apparently lower grade bucket. agree that buckets are useful though
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tantek InternetIdentityWorkshop
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adactio I agree that people should be encouraged to sign up using their own site (and maybe get a nice badge for doing so) but I don't think people should be made feel like an apprentice/padawan/whatever if they sign up a different way.
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neuro` +1 tantek, French barcamps were f%$#@ up because of this.
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tantek even the Federated Social Web Summit in 2010 was dominated by privacy-wonks who talked loudly about privacy but NEVER did anything
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tantek and distracted all the productive conversations
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tantek adactio - I don't think it's too much to ask that for *indie* *web* camp to do <5min setup on your own site.
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LauraJ I think it's ok if you are really upfront and overt: 'this is a techie build event, everyone is going to build stuff, if that's not for you no worries as you can do XYZ at a later date to get involved'
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tantek if <5min setup is too much work, then why is the person wanting to spend 2 days there?
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tantek in Portland and SF we've had meetups/drinkups which are open to all
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tantek for more informal conversations where there is no expectation of getting anything done
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barnabywalters likewise, the reykjavik remote party for IWC 2013 was open to all
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tantek adactio - *every* *single* *time* that anyone could show up to a federated/social/identity web event - it's been very unproductive.
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tantek like 100%
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tantek so separating people into self-selected buckets has so far been *the only* solution to that that's worked. if you have an alternative suggestion, I'm sure everyone here would be happy to listen to it.
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barnabywalters LauraJ: true, it might be worth clarifying that on the event page
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barnabywalters and also pointing to other event pages without the sign-up barrier
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adactio tantek: I don't.
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tantek LauraJ - is editing HTML actually "techie" any more?
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tantek adactio - so that's the thing then - we're going with this "good enough" solution until we come up with something better
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tantek especially difficult when venue capacities are limited
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adactio Okay.
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tantek last year we were not even close to capacity problems - so we relaxed it for indiewebcampuk
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tantek this year we filled up about a week before the event WITH the deliberate sign-up barrier!
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@BarnabyWalters So @indiewebcampuk is over-capacity! Really looking forward to meeting you all in Brighton. If you’re interested i… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrF5Z/ (twitter.com/_/status/374911045535805440)
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrF5Z/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK (pingback)
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tantek the reality is that getting on the indieweb and making it work is *hard*, and we shouldn't pretend that it's not
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tantek putting a small (even deliberate) barrier to a sign-up process which involves some of those very steps to get on the indieweb is a good litmus test for folks
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LauraJ tantek: well, from where i stand, mainstream is facebook :) HTML I think these days is probably techie :) (my interest is in seeing indieweb succeed which means tools in use by really *lots* of people, so my scale of mainstream vs techie may not match other people's :) and i agree it's a good thing to create a focussed event
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tantek like, are you willing to at least try this hard, if so, you have a chance of making an indiewebsite, if not, you likely have no chance.
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tantek (with current tools, software etc.)
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adactio.com edited /2013/UK (-48) "/* Guest List */" (view diff)
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tantek LauraJ - my longer term goal is also seeing IndieWeb succeed and grow
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tantek but not just raw #s
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tantek if you want raw #s, there's already WordPress
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tantek as a movement, software, community
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LauraJ i think you have the right balance this time :)
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tantek MUCH bigger than the IndieWeb
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barnabywalters I think we all have mainstream success for the indieweb in the back of our minds
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tantek LauraJ - what do you think of the apprenticeship option?
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barnabywalters but we recognise that aiming for+designing for that from the beginning is not likely to produce effective results
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tantek barnabywalters and the opposite is true
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neuro` barnabywalters: design for the masses at the beggining never solved anyone problems
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tantek designing for enthusiasts is how every successful tool today got started
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neuro` and we know it too much to fall into this trap
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tantek neuro` it is curious how people keep falling into the "design for the masses at the beginning" trap
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tantek I wonder if that trap is recommended somewhere in a book or something
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tantek where does it come from?
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tantek because the data (on how mass successes actually started out) shows the opposite.
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neuro` tantek: pride.
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tantek neuro` perhaps. but you would think pride, like ego, would make the person focus *first* on themselves.
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tantek rather than seeking validation by mass adoption.
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tantek so perhaps it is pride + insecurity?
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neuro` When you start building a tool you plan to release, it's human to try to solve every problem on earth
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neuro` instead of just self dogfooding
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LauraJ @tantek: i think it's a nice idea. I would probably have been a bit intimidated to join as one - having to contact some stranger and ask if they wanted an apprentice would probably have been scary :) but maybe as events get bigger etc it will be a little less scary (eg column for creators to say "would like to work with an apprentice" :) so it's more obvious where apprentices fit in
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tantek LauraJ - you're in IRC now, contacting strangers :)
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LauraJ but if all goes well there will be lots more events etc and opportunities later
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neuro` We (at Publify) fell into this trap before removing half of the features and focusing on our use of the software (minus the visual editor none of us use)
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tantek a-ha this is an excellent suggestion: column for creators to say "would like to work with an apprentice"
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neuro` +1
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tantek see now I always thought "apprentice" sounded so much better than "minion"
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barnabywalters LauraJ: oh that’s a brilliant idea!
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barnabywalters yep we certainly need to add that section for future indiewebcamps
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+6) "/* Creators */ emphasize hopefulness" (view diff)
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@Brighton_RT RT @BarnabyWalters: So @indiewebcampuk is over-capacity! Really looking forward to meeting you all in Brighton. If you’re interested i… htt… (twitter.com/_/status/374913461614280704)
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barnabywalters LauraJ: (tangent) am I getting things mixed up or do you help run the organisation who recently hired Smari Mccarthy?
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LauraJ barnabywalters: not that i am aware of :) I'm Open Knowledge Foundation & Makespace Cambridge
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@indiewebcamp RT @BarnabyWalters: So @indiewebcampuk is over-capacity! Really looking forward to meeting you all in Brighton. If you’re interested i… htt… (twitter.com/_/status/374913743408218112)
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barnabywalters oh cool — it was OKF I was thinking of, I may well be wrong though
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LauraJ barnabywalters: we are kinda large now ;) OKF central hasn't, I think, acquired a Mccarthy, but one of our local groups may have
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tantek LauarJ - was looking at the OKF event site - noticed the schedule and venue pages could use some microformats ;)
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LauraJ fwiw although i can't make it to brighton, and my coding skills are rusty in the extreme (i'm an embedded systems person anyway not web!) I'd happily have sent money/pizza/whatever, which isn't exactly possible on the site
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barnabywalters hm, I thought we had a “sponsor us” link somewhere
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LauraJ barnabywalters: i'm not a sponsor, though, just a person with some cash, here ;)
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tantek LauraJ - oops, that's our fault
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barnabywalters LauraJ: same thing :)
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barnabywalters http://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-sponsor — it was hidden away a bit
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tantek the tradition with BarCamp is a *very* low barrier to entry for sponsoring
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tantek like even just coffee
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barnabywalters I’m bringing badges, am I a “sponsor”? ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - sounds good
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LauraJ tantek: :) maybe a little late now - but agree. I'll try to make sure we do better next time. always a tricky balance between paid-shoestrings and volunteers, as our events have always lost money
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LauraJ good feedback though, thanks!
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LauraJ goes clicks paypal button
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tantek I think I can volunteer Mozilla to buy coffees for folks
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tantek or tea is that's your cup of
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tantek s/is/if
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Loqi tantek meant to say: or tea if that's your cup of
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tantek welcome ozten
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ozten tantek: howdy
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@brightonews RT @BarnabyWalters: So @indiewebcampuk is over-capacity! Really looking forward to meeting you all in Brighton. If you’re interested i… htt… (twitter.com/_/status/374915048793440256)
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tantek ozten - a bunch of us found your notes from FSWS2010 and were (re)reading it the other day: http://ozten.com/psto/2010/07/19/federated-social-web-summit-notes/
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ozten Oh cool, glad that was useful
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tantek you accurately predicted the difficulties that Salmon would have
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ozten re-reads
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tantek ozten btw - I made a page for the FSWS (since the original stuff has become quite lost at W3C :( ) - http://indiewebcamp.com/Federated_Social_Web_Summit
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Loqi it'll be ok
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tantek yes Loqi, yes it will
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@LaurieJ Sadly not going to be at @indiewebcampuk - but donated to support #openweb & individual control over our own data http://indiewebcamp.com/how-to-sponsor (twitter.com/_/status/374915789943758848)
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Loqi yeah!
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tantek gjones - do we still need sponsors for food/coffee/snacks etc.?
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gjones I was going to cover £200 from my company. Why has someone offered
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tantek I am offering to cover coffees on behalf of Mozilla
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tantek if there's some way I can put it on my card when I get to Brighton I can do that
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neuro` I've sent 50$, if it can pay a few pizzas
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tantek hopes aaronpk is keeping track of "recent" donations to put toward IWC UK :)
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps you can coordinate sponsorship/donations with gjones?
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tantek gjones - in other words, please ping aaronpk about recent paypal donations to help cover IndieWebCampUK costs. Thanks!
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tantek.com edited /challenges (+418) "added Citations to process" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /challenges (+12) "see also other things to do" (view diff)
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@aral @_Jordan Yep. And people who understand the implications for privacy, civil liberties, and human rights now & in the future. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374922499152429056)
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tantek.com edited /To-do (+428) "help out with indiewebcampuk, Process Criticism" (view diff)
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@sdether RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374925700706222080)
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gluegadget Hi! I found out about this project from the wired article. A couple of days ago I joined this channel, and read some of the posts. I also logged into indiewebcamp.com, and searched the wiki for a list of the projects/ideas IndieWebCamp would like to see improved/implemented, but couldn't find anything. Is there such a list? Or am I blind? Or I totally mistook what this camp is for?
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barnabywalters welcome gluegadget!
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gluegadget thanks barnabywalters
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barnabywalters indiewebcamp is primarily about scratching your own itches and building tools you use yourself
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barnabywalters so we don’t maintain a list of things we’d like to see built
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barnabywalters but you can see what we’re building on the indiewebcamp.com/projects page
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barnabywalters and some of the pieces we use at http://indiewebcamp.com/building-blocks
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barnabywalters gluegadget: what’s your personal site?
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gluegadget barnabywalters: gluegadget.com
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barnabywalters there’s also http://indiewebcamp.com/indiemark if you want some ideas for things to work on to improve your own site
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gluegadget barnabywalters: I see, thanks for the explanation.
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+109) "/* Level 0 */ add summary" (view diff)
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barnabywalters tantek: is it worth clarifying what acceptable subdomains are (e.g. not siloed foo.squarespace.com etc) or is that too nitpicky?
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tantek barnabywalters subdomain of your own domain yes
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /IndieMark (+23) "/* Level 0 */ clarified domain" (view diff)
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gluegadget reading /indiemark, and I think I'm getting it :)
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tantek.com created /FSW (+34) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /fsw (+34) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /fsws (+41) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /fsws2010 (+55) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /fsws2012 (+60) "r" (view diff)
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tantek wow - there were ZERO posts hashtagged #fsws2011
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tantek https://www.google.com/search?q=%23fsws2011
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tantek compare with https://www.google.com/search?q=%23fsws2010 and https://www.google.com/search?q=%23fsws2012
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+305) "improve Level 1 summary and some other minor edits" (view diff)
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tantek gluegadge - hopefully that makes Level 0 and Level 1 easier to skim/read
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tantek s/gluegadge/gluegadget
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Loqi tantek meant to say: gluegadget - hopefully that makes Level 0 and Level 1 easier to skim/read
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@nicolas2fr RT @xtof_fr: 30 participants #indiewebcamp : http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Guest_List @t @fdevillamil : @nicolas2fr will help us to support #indieweb in href… (twitter.com/_/status/374932651360010240)
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tantek barnabywalters, what do you think of trying to "launch" IndieMark at the end of IndieWebCampUK 2013?
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tantek I think Level 0 and Level 1 are pretty solid, and with your (and aaron and other advance indie site folks') help, I think we can make Levels 2-3 solid as well.
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barnabywalters tantek: by launching you mean, making it official? encouraging people to figure out what their mark is and note what they can do next?
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barnabywalters absolutely
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barnabywalters hah, “official”
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tantek well, at least remove "draft" from the Levels (which I stuck on there to indicate their level of flux)
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tantek at least start removing draft from the lower levels
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tantek let's plan on *at least* launching Levels 0-1
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aaronpk tantek: unfortunately we haven't gotten any donations other than what I've specifically asked for for IWC 2013 PDX
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tantek and hopefully Level 2 and possibly Level 3
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tantek aaronpk - odd, as a couple of people above say they clicked the paypal button
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tantek maybe paypal is holding back the moneys?
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barnabywalters boo paypal
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barnabywalters we need to start accepting bitcoin donations ;)
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tantek I remember Aral had trouble with them with the Update conference
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aaronpk oh? let me double check then. could be the paypal notification went to spam
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aaronpk oh! sure enough. just this morning, and hadn't gotten to my inbox yet!
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tantek woot!
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Loqi does a happy dance!
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aaronpk great. well I'm happy to either bring cash, or buy stuff from my card while there. I'm arriving on Thursday
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tantek I too am arriving Thursday
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barnabywalters ditto — are you guys planning on making the pre-party?
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barnabywalters I might be there in time
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tantek I'll be in Brighton by noon local time.
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aaronpk is dConstruct only one day?
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tantek yes
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aaronpk I'll be in Brighton by 11:30am Thursday, and am going to try to stay awake as long as possible
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tantek me too
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aaronpk barnabywalters: where's the info on the pre-party?
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barnabywalters I’m getting in later on, probably around 19:00 or 20:00 local time
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tantek when do you arrive at LHR?
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barnabywalters aaronpk: it was in the email Jeremy sent around
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barnabywalters if you don’t have a copy I can dig it out
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aaronpk barnabywalters: I don't have that email
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aaronpk email--
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Loqi email has -1 karma
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barnabywalters lol
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aaronpk tantek: I land at LGW at 10:30am
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barnabywalters “If you're in town the evening before the conference, come along to our pre-party at The Terraces bar from 7:30pm on Thursday, September 5th. We'll also be doing pre-registration there so you can pick up your badge.”
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aaronpk oh! dconstruct preparty?
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neuro` Evening aaronpk
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barnabywalters yep
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aaronpk I don't think I'm officially registered, so Amber probably has that email
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barnabywalters there’s also an after-party, which is straight after the conference and in the Dome’s bar
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aaronpk cool
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aaronpk neuro`: good morning
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barnabywalters which should be a big improvement over last year
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tantek aaronpk I arrive LHR 07:10
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tantek I expect immigration+customs to take 90+ minutes
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aaronpk oh right, forgot abotu that
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aaronpk I haven't traveled to a foreign english-speaking country before
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tantek just be polite, and don't say you're there "for work" - (they'll misinterpret it as "employment" and ask LOTS more questions)
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aaronpk heh
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tantek you're going for a web conference :)
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tantek (no joke, I know of stories of people getting sent back)
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aaronpk !!
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barnabywalters the whole moving-between-countries thing is broken
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tantek we all live in country-silos
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aaronpk I wonder how this other airport is going to be. I'm glad we're not landing in Heathrow
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barnabywalters aaronpk: it’s my first time coming in via Gatwick too
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adactio aaronpk: your Thursday evening involves coming to the speaker's dinner with Amber—though we can head on to the pre-party afterwards.
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aaronpk adactio: awesome thanks!
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adactio aaronpk: no problem. Looking forward to seeing you both.
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tantek barnabywalters, want to plan an IndieWeb drinkup/eatup either Thu nt or Fri nt adjacent to the dConstruct parties?
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tantek is thinking especially Thu nt since we'll both be around, and maybe some other indieweb folks will be too.
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barnabywalters I’d be up for friday certainly, I get in quite late on thurs and will need to check into hostel etc
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tantek getting to know each other informally beforehand has always helped with how well the camps go
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tantek ok
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barnabywalters let me double-check my timings
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tantek I figured that's why I'd leave it up to you :)
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barnabywalters I don’t know brighton eating/drinking places very well…
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tantek we can figure those out easily
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tantek timing is more challenging
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tantek Foursquare is quite handy in Brighton ;)
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barnabywalters okay, I’m getting in to LGW at 19:40, so it’ll be around 21:00 at best before I get into Brighton
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barnabywalters no, make that 22:00
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barnabywalters so Fri is probably better for me :)
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barnabywalters last dconstruct talk finishes at 17:45, with after-party straight afterwards
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barnabywalters so meeting up for dinner or something around 18:30-19:00 seems like a workable plan
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@BarnabyWalters #indiewebcampuk people: up for having an informal dinner meetup Friday (6th) evening around 19:30? Location… http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrHCX/ (twitter.com/_/status/374942998146351104)
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ShaneHudson I will be heading to Brighton Saturday morning from Plymouth, so may be quite late. Hope that isn't too much of a problem!
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: you’re from devon too? I’m headed down there for the week after IWC
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@IndieWebCampUK RT @BarnabyWalters: #indiewebcampuk people: up for having an informal dinner meetup Friday (6th) evening around 19:30? Location… http://t.c… (twitter.com/_/status/374943217323876352)
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: good to know, we should probably make a note of that so we don’t count you as a last minute cancellation
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ShaneHudson barnabywalters: Working in Plymouth for the year, from West Sussex :)
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ShaneHudson Yeah, don't lock me out!!
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barnabywalters cool. Exeter and plymouth seem to be quickly building active web communities
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ShaneHudson Yeah I have heard a lot about it. Though doesn't seem anywhere near as big as Brighton or even Chichester/Portsmouth areas (which are btw amazing for web communities)
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barnabywalters yeah, the problem is there are loads of people doing cool stuff, they’re just so spread out it’s tricky to get them all in a room together at the same time
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ShaneHudson very true
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ShaneHudson Like the stuff we are working on at work (http://portal.marineopec.eu/v3/static/).. I didn't know it even existed until I saw the job vacancy
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+275) "/* Event Details */ Added friday meetup" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson Basically an open source portal for scientific data
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barnabywalters oooh, cool
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ShaneHudson Hmm yeah looks like I will not be able to make it until mid afternoon on the Saturday sadly. Even if I leave at 7am I get there at 2pm
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tantek ShaneHudson - perhaps note that in your "other info" column (last column)
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ShaneHudson tantek: Ok, will do
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tantek.com edited /2014/Schedule (+0) "/* Friday, June 27, 2013 - IndieWebCamp Hosted Pre-Party */ typo should be 2014" (view diff)
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shanehudson.net edited /2013/UK (+79) "/* Creators */" (view diff)
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tantek hey aaronpk - could you suggest to caseorganic that she use smaller (pref 128x128) photo in the RSVP list so the table doesn't get so blown out so as to truncate the fourth column (e.g. what ShaneHudson just added)
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tantek looks for additional ways to narrow the columns in the table to see more text.
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tantek just realized we need to redirect the Sidebar "IndieWebCamp Events" quick links to specific pages for IndieWebCampUK 2013
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tantek.com edited /Sponsors (+124) "stub 2013 UK Sponsors section" (view diff)
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tantek e.g. Guest List, Planning, Schedule, Sessions, Sponsors
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tantek hmm, need a logo for our venue sponsor Lighthouse
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ShaneHudson Btw. how does the format work? Do we work on individual/team projects or one all together?
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tantek two day event
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+273) "add To-do section" (view diff)
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tantek hmm, looks like the two day description didn't make it over from the other event pages
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barnabywalters I think brainstorming in groups on the first day, then building in small groups/individually the second day is how it usually works
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tantek day one is brainstorming, day two is hacking
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ShaneHudson Ah okay, should be fairly ok getting in late then :)
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tantek oh I know what happened
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tantek IWCUK 2013 went from being 1-day (all mixed brainstorming/hacking) to 2-day
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: all the talking will be documented in IRC and etherpad, so you’ll be able to catch up in the evening :)
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ShaneHudson I have been meaning to integrate the POSSE concept into Ghost, might be something a few of us can do this weekend perhaps
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ShaneHudson barnabywalters: excellent :)
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ShaneHudson I was meaning to come last year but couldn't make it, so glad the ricg meeting in Paris is next week, means I can head down that way!
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+63) "/* IndieWebCampUK */ add day split info" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+36) "/* Friday */ RSVP for dinner" (view diff)
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tantek Shandhudson: for more details: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Event_Details
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barnabywalters ShaneHudson: which Ghost? not the recent kickstarter project right?
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tantek ShaneHudson do you run Ghost on Shanehudson.net>
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tantek ?
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ShaneHudson I don't yet... due to servers
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ShaneHudson but as soon as my host gives me a VPS, I will be
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ShaneHudson Sicne it needs node, and I prefer to keep control and I like my host
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ShaneHudson *since
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tantek right, hoping you're able to selfdogfood it while working on it :)
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ShaneHudson Wordpress at the moment, not done as much selfdogfooding as I would like to be honest. I've always planned to, so this weekend should be a good way to get going with ti
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ShaneHudson *it
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barnabywalters just talking to briansuda about dinner meetup, remembered that dconstruct lanyards often bring discounts, also we might be able to get group discount at somewhere like GBK
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barnabywalters so easiest to leave venue decisions to the last minute
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ShaneHudson Will there be a dinner on the Sunday night?
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barnabywalters last time we headed to a bar afterwards
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ShaneHudson Always good :)
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barnabywalters they had pretty good food, too. and people were accepting of my freeganish behaviour :)
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bret aaronpk, idea for indieauth: Automatically try to authenticate using the last sucessful auth provider when signing in after the first time
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bret ill open a ticket and we can discuss it there
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bret https://github.com/aaronpk/IndieAuth/issues/29
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tantek barnabywalters - GBK is that burger place right? that's a good place with big tables
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tantek let's pick that as a tentative venue
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barnabywalters I think so, Brian suggested it
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tantek make it so
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barnabywalters it is done
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+58) "/* Friday */ venue" (view diff)
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barnabywalters finally, a restaurant with a sensible website
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barnabywalters only thing missing is an obvious menu
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ShaneHudson Hmm Aral was on about a burger place last time I saw him, but it was closed. He tried to get them to open it, so sounds like a good place
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tantek.com edited /2013/UK (+263) "added Sunday evening" (view diff)
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tantek adactio was also on about a separate burger place last year also
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tantek and apparently they ran out of burgers
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tantek GBK is solid, can handle a group of 10+ etc.
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tantek barnabywalters, ShaneHudson: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK#Sunday_evening
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tantek is going to go out for a snack.
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tantek monitor web logs as usual :)
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barnabywalters cool, I don’t know what time I’m headed off but will certainly be up for meeting
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shanehudson.net edited /2013/UK (+40) "/* Sunday evening */" (view diff)
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ShaneHudson Yeah, I won't be able to stay too late. Probably 10ish
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@mindcrash RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374956730591236096)
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@mindcrash RT @aral: Facebook and Google will offer you the Freeternet. Ask: why is it free? What’s is their business model? #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374956757107630080)
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@mindcrash RT @aral: The Freeternet is not the Internet. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374956772823678976)
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@aral Yahoo recycles email accounts—some users getting personal emails meant for others: https://medium.com/weird-future/46b47d95b957 Own your domain. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374961753316392960)
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tantek yahoo recycling emails. ouch.
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tantek got to add that to the /Why and /Yahoo pages
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aaronpk it's funny cause telecoms have been doing that with phone numbers for years
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aaronpk it's just a very different thing when a phone number is redirected. there's the first part of the conversation that people use to negotiate whether they're talking to the right person
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aaronpk that doesn't exist in email, you just get the whole message. it would be like answering the phone and the other person just starts blabbing.
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jernst a lot of large ISPs recycle too if I remember this correctly from discussions in OpenID days
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jernst so a sequential identifier (or something like that) was introduced to be able to distinguish between the accounts, and the new account holder did not inherit access rights to the old account holder's accounts on relying parties
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tantek interesting
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tantek same problem obv is true with DNS in general. forget to renew your domain, and have it squatted by a spammer or pr0n site
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jernst Personally I think there should be a public key behind it that can be retrieved, and possession of private key be challenged, and if not matched, site ownership may have changed
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aaronpk like ssh known hosts?
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@jkarneges RT @aral: There is no such thing as a free service. #indiedata (twitter.com/_/status/374980780235042816)
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jernst Basically, just for http
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aaronpk seems like something that could easily be done as an HTTP header
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jernst Or simply pre-define a well-known URL
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jernst that's easier to add to existing software
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tantek this feels like the kind of thing some of the more security paranoid types would have explored already
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tantek e.g. WebID efforts
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tantek (involving personal certificates etc.)
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aaronpk of course if you're already publishing your public key in your h-card you could just use that
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jernst it's got to be tied to the hostname
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jernst if a given domain is owned/used by a single user, that's simpler
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aaronpk tantek: yeah I think WebID talks about it now that you mention it. can't quite remember
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jernst and then there's the related use case of "what if the site was hacked and the private key compromised"
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jernst a couple of years back I designed a protocol for how to recover, but never published
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jernst didn't quite know what to do with it
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aaronpk publish it on your blog?
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aaronpk just a crazy suggestion
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jernst :-P
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jernst lots of stuff gets published, the question is how does it ever get used?
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tantek jernst - publishing something on your blog is one of the best ways to help it get discovered (e.g. by search), which increases the chances of it being used.
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tantek publishing on an email list, even with an archive, is a good way to make sure it's lost forever
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jernst I know. Write-only mailing lists.
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tantek pretty sad/funny/ironic that Googlers are so email-list centric in their discussions, standards etc., and yet, Google *sucks* at indexing/surfacing results from mailing list archives
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tantek once in a while I poke my Google friends about this and they just sigh
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tantek here's the WebID wiki page. if you ignore the RDF/FOAF parts (substitute HTML/hCard), the protocol parts are interesting.
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tantek unfortunately the group is dominated by Uppercase SemWeb types and so the whole WebID effort is boatanchored by the baggage of RDF/FOAF.
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tantek http://www.w3.org/wiki/WebID
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tantek if you take the whole "FOAF+SSL" protocol and swap it out with hCard+SSL or maybe IndieAuth+SSL then we might have something.
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tantek there's been some work on doing WebID with hCard: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard-brainstorming#key_property_for_webid
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tantek and a blog post about it: https://plus.google.com/112399767740508618350/posts/1u39xvb8uQi
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hober is a post on g+ a blog post?
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hober e.g., i wouldn't describe a fb status update as a blog post
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tantek well it's a G+ post, not a fb status update
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tantek AFAIK
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hober i think of fb and g+ as being basically the same sorts of services, so i wouldn't describe a post on either as a blog post
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bret Man, I just love when GUIs to command line tools provide no screenshot of the actual GUI on the website
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tantek yeah, more like notes since there's no structure. no name/title. no headings.
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bret I'm not going to be around to remote participate in IWCUK :(
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hober when is it?
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/UK
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shaners good morning/day/evening/night, folks!
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shaners i was off the radar at burning man for the past 10 days or so.
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shaners what'd i miss?
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barnabywalters evening shaners
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@indieboxproject Growing Indie Box documentation on the wiki. http://indieboxproject.org/blog/2013/09/growing-indie-box-documentation-on-the-wiki/ #indieweb #indiebox #pcloud (twitter.com/_/status/374994963488329728)
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barnabywalters you missed some mildly interesting back and forth about indieauth between the channel and aral
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barnabywalters and indiewebcamp over-filling and everyone getting very excited
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barnabywalters how was burning man?
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shaners loud. hot. but totally awesome.
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@PoppenReport RT @aral: Vietnam decrees blogs & social media should only be used to share personal info not news. #indiedata http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-23920541 Via… (twitter.com/_/status/374995431245111296)
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barnabywalters sounds good!
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shaners really, "#indiedata"?
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aaronpk oh yea, and that
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aaronpk http://indiedata.org
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aaronpk and http://aralbalkan.com/notes/trickle-down-technology/ and http://aaronparecki.com/articles/2013/08/31/1/on-trickle-down-technology
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barnabywalters and http://indiewebcamp.com/On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup
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barnabywalters (and the two articles linked in the header)
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shaners wow.
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shaners words have meanings. and he completely misuses so many. sheesh.
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shaners you don't get to just say something is a "movement"
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tantek shaners - I like having a "movement" at least once a day in the morning.
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tantek I mean, don't you consider every one of your blog posts a "movement"? ;)
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bret XD
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bret shaners: Is the IWC farmhouse still going to happen?
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barnabywalters I just started a delicious, oddly-shaped movement: http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/4RrLn7/
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barnabywalters via email nonetheless — prepping for IWCUK demos
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tantek barnabywalters - what, no #indiepizza hashtag? ;)
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bret barnabywalters: don't post pictures of tho… oh that looks delicious!
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shaners tantek: i plan on writing a movement today
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barnabywalters #indiepizza is the future
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shaners bret: yep! 2013-11-03 right after FHC5.
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bret oh sweet!
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tantek is it on the wiki?
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bret i didn't see it but maybe i missed it
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shaners http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/hollywood
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bret on the events page i mean
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shaners ugh. MediaWiki's case sensitive URLs are annoying
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tantek shaners - http://indiewebcamp.com/events#upcoming
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tantek shaners which?
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shaners i'll add it to the events page
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tantek woot!
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Loqi woot
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shaners woot!
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Loqi giggles
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tantek I wonder if Loqi's "wootism" is part of the "minion" collection of subroutines.
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shaners woot
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Loqi :D
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shaners woot
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Loqi giggles
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tantek LOL
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shaners woot
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shaners I guess Loqi hit its woot limit
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Loqi :D
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (+132) "/* See Also */ noted Aral’s responses before the tweet permalinks disappear into the void" (view diff)
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tantek he had responses?
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tantek oh that
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barnabywalters tantek: so to speak
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tantek yeah - I figure he doesn't put it on his own site so...
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tantek :D
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /2013/Hollywood (+622) "/* Remote Participants */ added myself" (view diff)
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shaners barnabywalters: do you have a short url? / are you gonna get one?
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tantek shaners, I've been tweaking IndieMark a bunch
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barnabywalters shaners: I’m a bit meh about short URLs. it’s rare that I’ve felt I really need one
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tantek appreciate your continued feedback.
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tantek is getting close to Level 1 himself.
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barnabywalters and two+ more things to maintain, pay for etc.
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shaners barnabywalters: two?
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tantek barnabywalters - want to add a "Criticism" section here? http://indiewebcamp.com/short-domains
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barnabywalters domain, hosting, code
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tantek (perhaps after the "why …" section)
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tantek we should capture our own internal differences in opinion on such matters
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tantek do we need a meme for the indieweb without web suggestion that Aral made?
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tantek "If you're trying to be a part of the indieweb without a web site, you're gonna have a bad time."
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /short-domains (+296) "/* add more short URL domains here */ documented my criticism of short domains, lack of personal interest in one" (view diff)
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barnabywalters if you’re trying to be part of the web with no hyperlinks, you’re gonna have a bad time
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tantek.com edited /short-domains (+0) "move criticisms to just after "why..." section, before domains themselves" (view diff)
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tantek if you're trying to be web-like without hypertext, you're gonna have a bad time.
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shaners if you're trying to be web-like without hypermedia, you're gonna have a bad time.
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tantek if you're trying to make a *web* standard using an *email* list, you're gonna have a bad time.
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tantek and welcome back shaners :)
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shaners thanks!
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shaners it's good to be back
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bret I guess it took me a while to fully realize what exactly indieauth was trying to solve
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iamshane.com edited /Events (+366) "/* moved Indieweb meeting Paris to 2013 past */" (view diff)
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tantek bret indieauth or indiedata?
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bret indieauth
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bret i still don't know what indiedata is
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iamshane.com edited /Events (-361) "/* removed Indieweb meeting Paris from upcoming */" (view diff)
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tantek you mean authentication?
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tantek bret indiedata is a blog post and hashtag used by Aral
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bret tantek: yes, I came from the belief that persona was the future, but I see the difference now
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tantek Persona is backward compat with the past.
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tantek which isn't a bad thing
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bret Persona: web authentication using email
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bret IndieAuth: Web authentication using the web
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tantek right
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bret Boucing around the different authentication providers at first, one of my first reactions was (naively) why not just use persona
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barnabywalters aaaand my server’s being migrated. no waterpigs.co.uk for a few hours
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bret :(
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bret what if its a disaster and you don't have it for IWCUK?
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barnabywalters bret: it should be trivial to set up on another server
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tantek barnabywalters - what happens to webmentions that sites try to send you now?
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bret ;) Im just kiddin
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tantek just saying
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barnabywalters seeing as I can copy+paste the files, run a couple of commands and (in theory) be up and running again
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bret place holder to webmention.io?
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tantek do webmentions need some form of store&forward?
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tantek proxy?
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tantek I think this is why PuSH works the way it does
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tantek so the content publisher just pings the PuSH hub when it has new posts
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bret Sounds like a sweet feature for webmention.io but then are we just re-inventing email?
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tantek and then the PuSH hub can ping the subscribers with timeouts and retries
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tantek bret - not reinventing email no. but might be reinventing part of PuSH.
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tantek mind you, it might be a useful way to extract something from PuSH for broader use with webmentions etc.
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bret hrrm
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tantek bret, the concept of store-and-forward predates email
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bret USPS
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tantek https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Store_and_forward
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bret and beyond
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tantek networking protocols, back when networks were not real time!
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tantek ooh, this is an interesting branch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delay-tolerant_networking
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tantek wants DTN for webmentions, and web browsing in general (including form submissions)
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tantek wonders if anyone has thought about adding DTN to HTTP.
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tantek discovers googling for anything "HTTP" is useless.
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bret.io edited /On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (+3241) "Added my responses to the article's and to the existing comments." (view diff)
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bret.io edited /On_Evolving_IndieAuth_Followup (+3) "fixed a type in my response" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Why_web_sign-in (+77) "/* But what if multiple people are behind the same domain */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /Why_web_sign-in (+190) "/* Why Not Phone Numbers */ Added in privacy concerns" (view diff)
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bret barnabywalters: your site is down to check…. are you doing indieRSVPs and events?
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bret parsing for responses
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barnabywalters bret: I’ve manually posted indieRSVPs, not currently explicitly supporting hosting events or incoming RSVPs
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bret k
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bret TIL a new word: blowhard XD
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@Patrick_Sansom @gavinwye @IndieWebCampUK see you Sat evening :) You'll probably need the day to sleep off the effects of the @dconstruct after party… ;) (twitter.com/_/status/375020706645291008)
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shaners US west coast pals: is west coast timezone -0700 or -0800 in November?
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bret buhhh
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bret I don't actually know. Anyway shaners, re our conversation a movement ago, count me as a maybe. I want to make it to LA, but I am not sure if I will be able to do so yet.
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shaners bret: ok. but if it ain't on the wiki, it's not real. ;)
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bret ok
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iamshane.com edited /Events (+723) "/* added "IWC : Hollywood 2013" to Upcoming */" (view diff)
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iamshane.com edited /Events (+0) "/* capitalized "recent", because Titlecase in Headings */" (view diff)
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iamshane.com edited /Events (-136) "/* cleaned up IWCH2013 listing */" (view diff)
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iamshane.com edited /Events (+12) "/* a little more clean up to Upcoming */" (view diff)
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bret.io edited /2013/Hollywood (+372) "/* Sunday AND Monday RSVP */ Added myself for now." (view diff)
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tommorris deploys a new design for tommorris.org
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