#indiewebcamp 2013-07-10

2013-07-10 UTC
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aaronpk tantek: I have an explicit "reply-to" text box for a URL, as well as a "tweet ID" text box. when p3k auto-detects the syndicated tweet it fills in the tweet ID, but I can always go find it manually if I want and paste it in
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aaronpk 2013-08-06 looks like August 6th, 2013 to me as well
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aaronpk ohhh nvm
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aaronpk benwerd: hah awesome. did you publish your position paper somewhere?
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benwerd aaronpk: glad it wasn't just me
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benwerd I'm holding on for them to post it on the site
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aaronpk shuldn't you post it on your own site first, and have them link back to it? :D
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aaronpk re: 2013-08-06, this is what happens when I start replying to backlog before finishing catching up
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benwerd :)
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benwerd and yes
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benwerd I should
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bret lead by example!
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aaronpk tantek: I love the idea of all of us posting replies to each others content we post during the demos but having other presentations in between them
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bret Even if I cant make it, I can participate :p
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benwerd that will be killer
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@benwerd The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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aaronpk yea I'll have to take some time off to go down that week, so I can probably go down on the 6th for some hacking too
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem linked to http://indiewebcamp.com (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE (pingback)
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aaronpk reads
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bret where did I leave my development branch :[
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tantek also reads
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tantek fascinating read on http2 benwerd
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aaronpk awesome
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benwerd tantek: yeah, I liked that post (and buy into the argument completely)
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aaronpk benwerd: awesome post. if I supported "likes" on my site I would send you one
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benwerd aaronpk: rock :)
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aaronpk just found an argument against my separation of notes/replies/likes
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tantek benwerd, aaronpk - thanks for the feedback re: what to do about in-reply-to UI
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tantek now trying to figure out how to capture that on the wiki somewhere
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tantek I feel like there's some collective wisdom there (that's in the process of being figured out)
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@t Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek returns to reading benwerd's piece.
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benwerd is relieved his reply to aaronpk's post finally followed the rel-syndication link and threaded properly on Twitter
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aaronpk :D !
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tantek congrats benwerd!
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benwerd thanks!
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benwerd mops brow, strikes that one from the list
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@ShaneHudson RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@gurupanguji RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@HNTweets The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem: http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem Comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6016627
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tantek benwerd: "This does not undermine the technologies and successes of the wider federated social web movement, or of other open social software projects" - uh, yes it does. :)
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@johnallsopp RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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benwerd I chose to engage some diplomacy there. The proof will be in the pudding - or rather, the uptake
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@chiragdave RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@HackerfallFeed The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem https://hackerfall.com/story/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosys
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tantek great post/paper/submission benwerd
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benwerd thanks tantek
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benwerd really looking forward to us all presenting :)
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tantek looking forward to kicking butt and taking names at the W3C socialweb workshop
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tantek question I plan on asking every non-indieweb presenter:
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benwerd all out of gum
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tantek 1. Have you built this?
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tantek 2. Are you running it live on your personal domain you use to represent yourself on the web?
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tantek make that questions
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tantek benwerd - that's "bubblegum" :) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0096256/quotes?item=qt0479492
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@_hnyc The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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benwerd eek, you're right - I was quoting the Duke Nukem misquote
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@MrPennyworth_ The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem - http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem via @HackerNews
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@hackernewsrss The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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benwerd uh oh
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benwerd ok, MongoDB, this will be your test
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tantek benwerd - nice! page 1! https://news.ycombinator.com/
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benwerd hey, cool
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benwerd this is where I envy all of your flat file approaches though
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benwerd this really is going to be a test of my db
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tantek so are you saying I should wait before linking to your post or ...
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benwerd nono
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benwerd it's holding up ;)
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tantek ok….
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@cstanhope RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@VinodShintre The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem #attribo
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@mediagearbox The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem via: #ycombinator
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@WebStartupGroup The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem #news
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@meelanb The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@HackerTheArtist From HN: The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@t #indieweb on https://news.ycombinator.com/ home page
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@dietrich RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@ShaneHudson @t @benwerd I think I will join the whole #indieweb thing properly soon. Been thinking that kind of way for a few years now.
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@MoonLightRSS1 The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@WDNewsBlog The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://wdn.publog.jp/archives/29364845.html #wdnewsblog
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@benwerd @shanehudson @t You should go to #IndieWebCamp UK: http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/uk
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Loqi [mention] http://werd.io/view/51dcb223bed7de9f090d6e9b linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013/uk (pingback)
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@rhirauac The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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@nateparm The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
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@GBDataStream The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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benwerd oof
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benwerd apologies all
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tantek uh oh, site down?
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tantek WFM
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@BornCor The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@_ZPH RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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pdurbin ah. we must be talking about http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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benwerd Loqi certainly is. Luckily I think the channel flood has died down a bit
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pdurbin oh, duh. my fault for /ignoring Loqi. sorry for the noise
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@prushforth RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@JoetekNews The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem (Hacker News) http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem?utm_source=joeteknews&utm_medium=twitter
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tantek benwerd, you and me both blowing up Loqi today
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Loqi is done
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tantek I don't think so Loqi.
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tantek of course my tweet was inspired by *starting* to read your post, and striking a chord which had already warmed up quite a bit
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tantek has had it with all the bullshit marketing about "open apis"
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@mrgunn RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek Loqi :D
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benwerd tantek: I was told today that we would need to pay $60k to use a company's API
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@ayirpelle "@t: #indieweb on https://news.ycombinator.com/ home page
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benwerd and that's *before* the lock-in
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@bigeasy RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@ayirpelle Tantek Çelik (@t) tweeted at 5:54 PM on Tue, Jul 09, 2013:
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@punkish So true. MT “@t: Your “Open API” w proprietary TOS isn't open. You know what’s open? HTML over HTTP.
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@jinnli The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedsapi%2FBwPx+%28Hacker+News+Top+20+Full+feeds+by+FeedsAPI%29
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@dbounds RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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hupili.net created /User:Hupili.net (+181) "Created page with " [hupili.net My IndieWeb Identity Site] following is the test region. --~~~~ ---- '''Bold text''' ''Italic text'' [[test]]"" (view diff)
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tantek fascinating - is that spam?
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bret Hupili's site?
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tantek user page, yes
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (+19) (view diff)
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bret links to a real page :)
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tantek spammers do too :)
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tantek however HU Pili's Homepage looks pretty geniune
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tantek genuine even
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bret thats what I was trying to say :p
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (+101) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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bret Cool! Someone from Hongkong
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (+3) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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tantek yes, very cool
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (+2) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (-4) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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hupili.net edited /User:Hupili.net (-4) "/* HU, Pili */" (view diff)
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bret We need to show him the preview button
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tantek bret - I suspected spam because sometimes spammers write test content first
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tantek heh
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@malcolmblaney RT @benwerd: The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@malcolmblaney RT @benwerd: The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@distobj RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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bret Has there been any interest into indiewebcamp from individuals working for facebook?
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tantek bret - none directly that I know about - though there are some microformats advocates there like Paul Tarjan (helped co-create the original Python relmeauth library)
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bret hrmmm
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tantek welcome hupili!
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hupili hello!
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bret you made it :)
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hupili I finally managed to login the wiki
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tantek we saw :)
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bret edits come to IRC in real time
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hupili where can I see it?
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bret make an edit!
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tantek hupili, see /topic :)
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hupili.net edited /code-of-conduct (+58) "/* Signed */" (view diff)
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hupili I see
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hupili awesome
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bret.io edited /code-of-conduct (+52) "/* Signed */ Signed code of conduct, which I somehow missed before" (view diff)
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hupili what client do you use for IRC? the xChat Azure I'm using often crashes...
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bret hupili, what OS do you use?
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hupili mac OS X
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bret colloquy is good
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hupili thanks, I'll give it a try
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hupili It seems xChat here crashes every time I roam between different wifi Ap
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bret hupili http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC#Clients
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bret irssi + screen is also popular if you prefer CLI
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bret the power of a CLI client is persistence if you have access to a shell account somewhere
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@mathewi RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@tfoil2 The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@vicster RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@jef_poskanzer RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@tek_news HNews: The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@cstanhope RT @benwerd: The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@itamarw RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@vruz RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@shiladitya RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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bret trying to code, but to distracetd by the conversations
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bret too*
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tantek wow I didn't expect that note to strike that much of a chord
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tantek perhaps there's a pattern there
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@jayesh RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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bret vote this up if you have not yet https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6016627
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tantek bret - direct links to the item often don't work for voting up
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tantek hence link to home page - or search
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bret wow, you kidding me?
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tantek (for exactly this reason - people sharing a link around on IRC, forums etc.)
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tantek yeah
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tantek it's a moderation hack
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tantek which is why I linked to the home page in my tweet
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tantek https://news.ycombinator.com
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bret "your vote must come from pure, unguided procrastination!"
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tantek pretty much
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tantek go https://news.ycombinator.com , search for indieweb, click upvote :)
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@Sushubh RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek.com edited /Why_web_sign-in (+1233) "/* Why not consume OpenID */ Additional reasons why not OpenID quoting from a Simon Willison comment" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /To-do (+81) "note getting started should help nudge folks to progress towards IndieMark levels in areas" (view diff)
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hupili test
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tantek hello hupili, test received
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hupili test
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tantek hello hupili, second test received.
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hupili OK, I changed to Irssi
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hupili plus screen
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@simonbaumer RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@davelester really excited by this blog post: "the #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem" http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem #indieweb
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@YourMomBot @davelester Your mom excited by this blog post: "the #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem" http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem #indieweb
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bret cool hupili, irssi can take a while to get used too/set up, but once it is, it rarely needs maintenance
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aaronpk !tell benwerd you should almost certainly post that to indienews!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek aaronpk - post what?
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tantek oh yeah - his article that's blowing up :)
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tantek aaronpk - do we have a kind/category for personal fitness related posts
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tantek ?
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tantek I'm documenting my personal indie site / other posting practices
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tantek might as well set an example and be transparent
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aaronpk I call mine "metrics" http://aaronparecki.com/metrics
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tantek ok so we don't have a page on the wiki for that yet
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aaronpk i think there's a couple paragraphs on the bottom of the "note" page
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@sbenthall RT @davelester: really excited by this blog post: "the #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem" http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem #indieweb
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+2851) "add my indie web setup section describing my primary site + POSSE, and PESETAS for other, except Foursquare. add h-card." (view diff)
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@Nic RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+19) "explicit TOC part way down, note silo posting explicitly (as a public declaration of the things I need to fix/replace)" (view diff)
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tantek ok ladies and gentlement, here's my full disclosure of what I'm posting on my own site vs on silos and where I am with transitioning all that: http://indiewebcamp.com/User:Tantek.com#my_indie_web_setup
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tantek I challenge you to do the same on your User: page. Let's hold each other accountable.
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bret nice
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+138) "/* silo posting */ silos are just building blocks" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /Tantek (+29) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /tantek (+29) "r" (view diff)
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@tistre RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek.com edited /User:Tantek.com (+106) "/* silo posting */ note post/date that I setup my Tumblr PESETAS" (view diff)
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hupili.net edited /How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain (+72) "it really takes me some time to find out the "login" button. leave a note for new users" (view diff)
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tantek I thought we had a feature request to put the login link at the top left of every page
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hupili that would be better
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tantek ah yes: http://indiewebcamp.com/wiki/#Login_from_any_page
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tantek feel free to add a +1 to that hupili, perhaps we can collectively pressure aaronpk :)
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Loqi benwerd: aaronpk left you a message 45 minutes ago: you should almost certainly post that to indienews!
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benwerd d'oh
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benwerd yes I should
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tantek lol
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benwerd corrected
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hupili.net edited /wiki/ (+487) "/* Login from any page */" (view diff)
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@osiziqol Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook. You know what’s open? HTML over HTTP. #indieweb (ttk.me t4Qv4)
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hupili.net edited /wiki/ (+56) "/* Login from any page */ leave a sign" (view diff)
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hupili this page is more like a "get started" than the current "get started", http://indiewebcamp.com/How_to_set_up_web_sign-in_on_your_own_domain
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hupili It takes time to read the materials in current "get started". There are too many pointers for first timers. e.g. syndication models, some IW projects, hCard, etc. Those are not mandatory for login the wiki. It's better to catch up gradually
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@newsyc20 The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem (https://news.ycombinator.com/item)
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@AmritChhetriB RT @newsyc20: The IndieWeb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem (https://news.ycombinator.com/item)
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bret hey aaronpk, if you are not to busy right now, can you disable the api key for bret.io on pingback.me?
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bret i should have pingbacks there now
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Loqi yea
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bret i have some moving parts finally
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bret I want to make sure they work in deployment
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@smc90 "really interoperable interoperability" and the indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem -- http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@smc90 "really interoperable interoperability" and the indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem @benwerd -- http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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benwerd Whoops! Comments may be closed, but the IndieWeb breaks through the barriers: http://www.hamelltv.com/2013/06/upcoming-tour-dates/
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@inbridge "experiment with decentralized social models without losing your existing audience" -- I like this arg, http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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tantek hupili, btw - you can sign your comments on the wiki with 4 tildas: ~~~~
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tantek that will link your username and put a datetime stamp
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hupili thanks tantek
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@erlenzeisig "The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem" http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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hupili do we have a geo-distribution of current indiewebcamp members?
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hupili I'm looking for some potential offline activities
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tantek we have a timezone distribution
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hupili how to get that ?
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tantek hupili - add yourself to indiewebcamp.com/irc-people
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hupili.net edited /IRC_People (+41) (view diff)
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bret aaronpk, I am getting a 403 forbidden when I append a script element sourcing some jsonp data on pingback.me
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bret visiting the url in the browser is fine though
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bret :/
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@sandeepshetty RT @t: #indieweb on https://news.ycombinator.com/ home page
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@skeptech RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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tantek I'd hoped that somehow sandeepshetty had implemented POSSEing of reposts as native retweets on Twitter
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tantek as in, when you do a repost of an indieweb post, if that indieweb post has a rel=syndication link to a tweet, then you do a native retweet on twitter as well
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tantek perhaps I should add that to the wiki
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tantek wonders if Aaronpk would implement that
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bret hey tantek, would you peek at the 403 error I am getting when requesting data on pingback.me? http://bret.io/2013/06/24/t4/
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bret check your console
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bret is that the cross domain crap blocking the request?
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tantek no idea how to follow that
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bret 403 means the server is refusing, not the browser right?
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bret i guess thats my question
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tantek I believe so
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tantek though I suppose it could depend on what API you're calling
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bret pingback.me
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bret im going to have to ask aaronpk about it when he has time
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tantek what's the pingback.me URL?
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bret http://pingback.me/api/links?target=http://bret.io/2013/06/24/t4/&jsonp=webmentionProcess&access_token=NTAxNTJmM2RmNzA4YTQ4ODllMWQ2NWJm
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bret and thats what ends up as the source for a script appeneded to the dom
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bret and I am going to need a new auth token :/
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tantek oh dear. yeah. :/
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bret i blew it a few days ago
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tantek has anyone besides sandeepshetty implemented indieweb reposts?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+483) "/* How to */ add how to POSSE Reposts of Tweets, and POSSE Reposts to Twitter" (view diff)
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tantek well I've written it up
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tantek would be interesting to move "retweets" to being something you do / native on your own personal site, and then have it automatically do the POSSE equivalent on Twitter
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tantek.com created /reposts (+20) "r" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+535) "/* Working On */ implement reposts of tweets and reposts of indieweb posts, with POSSE retweet functionality" (view diff)
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tantek well I've added it to my list of Falcon "working ons"
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bret yarrr
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bret so close to displaying webmentions and pingbacks
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neuro` Hello.
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bret but, cant quite access the data :(
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bret im going to read over what you are working on tantek
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tantek repeat question (cc: aaronpk, tommorris) - anyone besides sandeepshetty implemented indieweb reposts? (or thinking about implementing reposts?)
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bret I would like to, but was unclear how to do it
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tantek well that's what we're figuring out! :)
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bret i was thinking, looking at http://werd.io/, that a repost would look something like bens normal note, but with a different h-card and some kind of indication its a repost
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bret it fits the context of every item in the stream having an h-card to the right of it
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hupili.github.io created /User:Hupili.github.io (+953) "Created page with "# Hupili.Github.Io It just come to me that an independent domain is not mandatory.... Anyway, it's beneficial to have more people own there domain. The IndieAuth facility is c..."" (view diff)
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bret at least in terms of presentation
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hupili.github.io edited /User:Hupili.github.io (+2) (view diff)
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tantek ok - aaronpk that's the second github.io sign-in that's been created
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tantek time to black list github.io
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bret :)
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tantek bret - in terms of presentation - we can look at sandeepshetty's implementation
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tantek here is an example: http://www.sandeep.io/35
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xtof href et neuro I'd be happy to talk about human resources in french without cash for the moment ? http://christopheducamp.com/w/2013-07-10#ressources_humaines
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bret http://www.sandeep.io/105 XD awsome
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tantek looks like sandeep is putting the repost contents inside a blockquote
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tantek which makes sense
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tantek and he's linking to the original with class="u-repost"
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bret check out this though http://www.sandeep.io/103
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tantek yes I know about the likes :)
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bret he differentiated a like from a repost though
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bret somewhere in the wiki
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bret in terms of presentation, its rather similar to a repost
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tantek the other example to look at is Tumblr and retumbles
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bret I was thinking about implementing some kind of attatchment system, where I can mix in various elements, like media, likes (/other emotional response descriptions?), replies, favorites, reposts, links, rsvps, events to the note format
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tantek bret - would that be necessary for the use-cases we have?
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tantek seems like it might be a bit overkill
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bret I'm not sure yet
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bret the idea fits around the metadata model I am experimenting with
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bret IE, I put some basic info in the meta data section of a post, and then some generic placement tag is used to determine where and how it gets placed into the html
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tantek as a UI?
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bret kinda jankey, but an iprovement over bbcode!
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bret improvement*
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tantek why not just go directly to HTML?
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tantek and skip the meta-middle-man
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bret the same reason why people use markdown
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bret its easier to implement a complex template once just to post a responsive photo template for example
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bret so the template, + some simple metadata, I could do a responsive flickr embed for example
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bret im still making it work right now
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bret but jekyll just mergeed include tags with variables so it should make life way easier for me
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bret the other reason is that I am pegged to this system, and there is a lot I could do with it still. I'm not quite ready to scrap it for something else
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href xtof: :)
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bret goodnight
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Loqi sleep tight!
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tommorris Guess what Google are getting rid of today?
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tommorris Latitude! http://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/a-new-google-maps-app-for-smartphones.html
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tommorris And offline mode for Google Maps for Android.
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cweiske moving into g+ again
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barnabywalters how long until google announces it’s renaming itself
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barnabywalters and trademarks the use of the + symbol at the end of words
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@fakebaldur RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@gabalese RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@mcburton Reading about #indieweb standards. thinking about #indiescholarship w/ #altmetrics /cc @jasonpriem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@rintzezelle RT @mcburton: Reading about #indieweb standards. thinking about #indiescholarship w/ #altmetrics /cc @jasonpriem http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@Eliggia #indieweb http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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@edsu RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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edsu :)
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@JSisHard RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@warlayton RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@mjsuhonos RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@alvarograves RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@cgutteridge RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@alexsdutton RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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barnabywalters tantek: do you type curly quotes in manually or automate it somehow?
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@nypl_labs RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@jgsmith RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@futureful "IndieWeb aligns software developers with their users, while providing simpler tools for development" http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem by @benwerd
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@suikuso0719 Portland friends, doing one last coffee &amp
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Loqi snack meetup / #indieweb hack session 15:30 today at Backspace: backspace.bz (ttk.me t4Qu5)
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tantek barnabywalters curly quotes manually
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tantek option-[ and shift-option-[ on a mac keyboard
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tommorris “I hear it is pretty easy on the Mac.”
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tommorris ;)
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barnabywalters yep, I use the same
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barnabywalters Aral’s talk inspired me to start but he suggested making your own hotkeys for some reason
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tantek yeah I think he pushed me in that direction too
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barnabywalters and ] for singly curly quotes, alt +
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barnabywalters for …, etc.
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tantek option-: for …
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barnabywalters technically alt+: gives you Ú ;) without shift for …
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tantek and shift-option-] for apostrophe also (same as close single quote)
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tommorris one thing I've done is with TextExpander, set up semi-colon followed by HTML entity name for a lot of things I type a lot
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tommorris like typing ;rarr gives me →
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barnabywalters tommorris: oh that‘s handy, I’ve wanted a way to type all those nice arrows for a while
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barnabywalters left-arrow.net and right-arrow.net are useful reference
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tommorris I also have some others I've come up with. ;notequals for ≠ - ;there4 for ∴
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tantek how about a hotkey to just popup a palette of the special characters you like and then you can click them
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tommorris meh, don't like mice. and I know that's possibly irrational
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barnabywalters thought there was a keystroke for /= but was getting confused with ≈ (alt+x)
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tommorris the rational part of my dislike for mice and other non-keyboard interfaces is my distaste for painful wrists.
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tantek tommorris - the palette itself can have keyboard shortcuts to pick from the options
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tantek or heck, (tab)* + return
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tantek would work well e.g. with only a dozen or so special characters (that you customized to the ones you like)
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tommorris OS X has a 'special character favourites' list
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tommorris but it's not very rapid access, aals.
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tommorris *alas
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tantek barnbabywalters, tommorris - are you guys looking into implementing reposts and likes/favorites?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+15) "/* POSSE Reposts to Twitter */ specifically to twitter.com" (view diff)
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tantek I wanted to get some feedback on this: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets
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barnabywalters tantek: look good to me
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barnabywalters by implementing, do you mean publishing or consuming or both?
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tommorris tantek: when I have time. :)
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tantek barnabywalters - implementing usually starts with publishing :)
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tantek by consuming I suppose you mean receiving webmentions for reposts and keeping a counter like sandeep does
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barnabywalters tantek: I’ve published likes
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tantek a counter on each post of the # of reposts of that post
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barnabywalters I’m not yet entirely convinced of the utility of likes and reposts — i.e. not sure exactly what they mean or why I want them next to my notes
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tantek likes of tweets?
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tantek gimme a sec re: the utility
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barnabywalters I support consuming reposts and likes by default as they should fall back to comments/mentions
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barnabywalters e.g. sandeep’s likes of my content have popped up as human-readable comments before
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tantek then you're not really supporting consuming reposts - that's just fallback webmention behavior
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barnabywalters that’s what I meant
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tantek they have? does he use in-reply-to links on them?
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barnabywalters not consuming, but they still work
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tantek or do you display all mentions as comments?
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barnabywalters all mentions as comments right now
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tantek well they "do something", I wouldn't call that "working" really
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barnabywalters they appear as human-readable comments — a behaviour easily observable in other comment systems which don’t support likes
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barnabywalters people will comment “like” or “+1”
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barnabywalters I’m not supporting the markup yet but something useful appears by design
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tantek sure, it's good fallback behavior
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tantek do you also see comments like "Sandeep Shetty reposted this"
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barnabywalters not sure anyone’s reposted my content yet — although a fair number of people have posted quotes/excerpts
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barnabywalters but it should work like that too
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barnabywalters same with RSVPs, etc
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tantek we should probably specify fallback content on all the reply types in order to create this kind of good fallback behavior
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Loqi yea!
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tantek so that as soon as someone supports receiving and displaying comments / webmentions, then no matter what reply types we come up with in the future, something reasonable happens on the comment receiver's site
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barnabywalters yes
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barnabywalters tantek: did you get a chance to take a look at my e-* iframe @srcdoc parsing idea?
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+570) "/* How to */ POSSE Favorites of Tweets and POSSE" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - not yet
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tantek while I have you on likes/favorites
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tantek the utility is this: not having to do any native content UI on Twitter itself.
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barnabywalters /bookmarks, etc
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tantek being able to do tweets, replies, retweets, and favorites directly on your own site
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tantek and POSSEing them ALL to twitter
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tantek just added How to Favorite
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tantek rather how to POSSE
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Favorites_of_Tweets
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tantek once we figure out cross-site (de)friending, perhaps we can eliminate that step too
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tantek just had a thought about how to support POSSEing of updates/delets to Twitter too
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tantek s/delets/deletes
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Loqi tantek meant to say: just had a thought about how to support POSSEing of updates/deletes to Twitter too
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tantek could POSSE updates by deleting the POSSE tweet and reposting
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tantek and then we'd have POSSE CRUD!
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barnabywalters that would be pretty cool
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barnabywalters apart from POSSE updating breaking twitter conversation views
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barnabywalters maybe make it optional so you only delete and post again if you’re making a big change, or a change which would be shown in the truncated copy
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hober potentially useful library for indieweb-minded folks: http://snarfed.org/2013-07-09_twitter-atom-is-back
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tantek maybe only POSSE update/delete if no one has replied to it yet
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barnabywalters yep, that’s another good option
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barnabywalters delete should probably work all the time
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barnabywalters although with all the reply context goodness around now it’s debatable whether or not deletion is actually effective any more — unless every reply context implementation also supports deletion
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tantek well, some delete is probably better than none
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barnabywalters sure
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tantek barnabywalters - yes, if the change would not show up in the truncated copy, it shouldn't be propagated
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tantek hober - do you know that Barnaby's mf2-php library will parse twitter also ?
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barnabywalters tantek: badly — but the mf2-shim aaronpk and I have been working on does a good job of it now
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barnabywalters permalink tweets with authors and replies are handles
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barnabywalters *handled
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tantek barnabywalters, the other thought I had about POSSE updates, especially to Twitter, is that you really should only propagate updates within a very short time window, maybe like 2-5 minutes, because otherwise the update will be seen as a duplicate to people who are reading you on Twitter.
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barnabywalters part of my attempt to reverse-syndicate twitter replies into comments
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tantek nice
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tantek it'll be cool when we just drop in a Twitter tweet or profile URL into pin13 and see what it looks like as JSON :)
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tantek e.g. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Ft
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tantek though even just seeing the rels is quite cool
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barnabywalters structure in place to do the same with instagram, etc
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barnabywalters probably tumblr is possible too
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barnabywalters if there are classnames common to many themes
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tantek tumblr will be tough - classnames are quite varied
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tantek then again, one can customize one's tumblr
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tantek so...
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barnabywalters yeah, better to encourage people to use mf2 to start with
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tantek e.g. http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.tumblr.com%2F
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tantek :D
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barnabywalters might also be interesting to d the same for search engine results — get search results as an h-feed
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barnabywalters not sure how you’d handle dt-published
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barnabywalters unless the search engine exposes it
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tantek you wouldn't - search results are not really a feed. they're just al ist.
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tantek s/al ist/a list
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Loqi tantek meant to say: you wouldn't - search results are not really a feed. they're just a list.
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tantek hober have you seen sandeepshetty's h-feed to Atom converter?
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tantek you know, for folks that still use "classic" feed readers :)
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hober i don't think i have
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hober sounds cool!
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@kinlane The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem - http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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tantek barnabywalters - I'll write-up some thoughts about how to handle reply-context CRUD
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tantek I think it's fairly straightforward
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tantek except for what to do with deletes - like if you have a reply that receives a webmention from its original post (that it's replying to), and that original post returns a 410.
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tantek what should you do with your reply and reply-context? leave it alone? unlink the original? note that the original appears to have been deleted, but keep the reply-context?
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tantek this may be something we need to do individual UI experimentation on to get a feel for what are good options to consider.
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tantek would be nice to get full comment, POSSE, reply-context CRUD figured out and working cross-site before the W3C SocialWeb workshop - those would make for AMAZING dynamic federation/socialweb demos. The kind no one has ever seen before (or maybe even thought of - in that group).
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tantek aaronpk, benwerd ^^^
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@skruk RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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@ozten RT @kinlane: The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem - http://werd.io/entry/51dca7e2bed7de945debf707/the-indieweb-as-a-minimum-viable-social-web-ecosystem
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tantek still going strong :)
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demis hi benwerd I have set up idno on my server box and was wondering if you would be able to help with a problem?
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benwerd sure! what's the problem?
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demis I have mongodb running and can connect to its test db over localhost, and I cloned idno into /var/www and apache2 is running, but when I open the site I just get a blank white page.
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benwerd have you checked your server error log?
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benwerd it sounds like there might be a PHP error lurking there
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benwerd this may be because of a PHP version mismatch or a required PHP extension that isn't installed
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benwerd if you see anything that looks like a PHP error, feel free to email it to me at ben@benwerd.com and I'll be happy to help out
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demis okay, I was wondering where to look for that, I'll check the logs. I'm running php 5.4.4-14
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demis thanks!
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benwerd that version should be fine
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demis bingo, the apache2 error.log caught these:
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demis PHP Warning: require_once(/var/www/idno/external/Symfony/Component/ClassLoader/UniversalClassLoader.php): failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/idno/Idno/start.php on line 11
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benwerd Ohhh
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demis PHP Fatal error: require_once(): Failed opening required '/var/www/idno/external/Symfony/Component/ClassLoader/UniversalClassLoader.php' (include_path='.:/usr/share/php:/usr/share/pear') in /var/www/idno/Idno/start.php on line 11
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benwerd how did you install it? a git clone?
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demis yes
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benwerd ok, you need to init submodules and git pull
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benwerd http://git-scm.com/book/en/Git-Tools-Submodules
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benwerd see "cloning a project with submodules" about halfway down
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benwerd there will eventually be an installer. sorry about the hassle for now!
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benwerd (basicall git submodule init then git submodule update)
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benwerd * basically
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demis okay that helped, those errors are gone, now I see PHP Fatal error: Class 'Mongo' not found in /var/www/idno/Idno/Core/DataConcierge.php on line 23
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benwerd ok, yeah, that means you don't have the PHP Mongo extension installed (which you need for MongoDB support)
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benwerd Here's the list: https://github.com/idno/idno/wiki/System-requirements
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demis sweet, I installed the mongo php extension and it's working - very happy thanks :)
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benwerd Awesome!
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benwerd There are some POSSE plugins over at https://github.com/idno that you may want to take a look at
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benwerd eg, Twitter, Facebook, Foursquare, Flickr
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demis sounds great, I'll try those out. I've been interested in trying POSSE since I came across the indiewebcamp site
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demis thanks a lot for your help!
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tommorris just been pimping indie checkins on osm-talk: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067491.html
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benwerd Hey, cool! Also, I didn't realize you were doing checkins. Super-neat.
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benwerd I'm using the OSM Nominatim API to *almost* do what you're talking about
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benwerd but definitely second your request
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tommorris I really need to finish the venue database post and publish it.
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tantek anybody up for some social web debunking? like:
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tantek http://www.forbes.com/sites/rawnshah/2013/07/02/the-future-of-the-social-web-depends-on-standards/
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tantek and http://www.zdnet.com/how-we-can-create-open-standards-for-social-business-7000017420/
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tantek or are we all too busy actually building and deploying things? ;)
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neuro` debugging here :)
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tantek benwerd - I think tommorris was the first here to start doing indieweb checkins - he's pioneered a lot of implementation of what's documented on the wiki
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tantek.com edited /wiki-page (+65) "geo-wiki" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /geo-wiki (+254) "stub" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /geo-wiki (+62) "contrast with named pages" (view diff)
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tantek hober - aforementioned h-feed / h-entry to Atom proxy: http://h-reader.aws.af.cm/feed/atom?url=http://www.sandeep.io/
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tantek awesome, yet another Medium post ragging on Medium: https://medium.com/writers-on-writing/336300490cbb
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tantek that's three I count so far
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tantek from shaners, that one ranty one, and this
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tantek perhaps we should start a collection
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benwerd Sounds like the premise for a Buzzfeed post
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tantek I think you need at least 10 for a buzzfeed post
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benwerd so we'll give it a few more days
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tantek is about to use an exponent for text compression
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tantek I <3 unicode exponents
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@t Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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tantek :D
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@fox RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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tantek so apparently Twitter only show the link-preview for the LAST link in a tweet, e.g. https://twitter.com/t/status/355069622325747713
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@t Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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tantek I wonder if we could start a collection of posts for every silo like that?
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tantek Why not to post on Google+ on Google+
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tantek etc.
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@psdesignuk RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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@Ivanico RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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@benwerd RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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shaners OK, now. Someone's going a little bananas with the triplicate posts.
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@nilsgeylen RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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@pfefferle The #indieweb as a minimum viable social web ecosystem http://notizblog.org/t/1W6
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tantek I think I'm allowing myself just one shit-starter post per day. And that was it.
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tantek even if it was essentially a linkblog³
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tommorris tantek: I should probably write more about my per-post license selector
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tommorris you wanna control your own writing? CC some posts and not others rather than relying on companies to not be evil
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tantek yeah I like that
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@n1ck_lancaster RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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tommorris I tend to CC-BY my communityish posts - barcamp notes and so on - but not my more personal stuff
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tantek I tend to once in a while CC my posts - the ones I think people will really want to copy/modify
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tantek I think of translation as fair use
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tantek goodness - seriously long reply thread on that last tweet
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tantek benwerd - have you thought about implementing native reposts/retweets on your own site? is that something that interests you?
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tommorris tantek: translation is a derivative work legally. non-CC posts I've written, people contact me about translating them. I usually switch 'em to CC BY SA and then ask them to (a) comply with the licesne and (b) email me a link once its done
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tantek tommorris - yeah I agree that's true per the letter, but I choose to let translations of my posts slide because I think that's a good encouragement
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tommorris I've had Wikinews articles I've written translated to. I was amazed when I wrote an article, came back an hour or so later and someone had translated it into Farsi
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tommorris they're all CC BY
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tantek maybe also because I haven't been burned yet by translations - of blog posts etc.
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tantek mostly by xtof :)
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benwerd tantek: yes, and yes
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benwerd it's something that's a natural iteration from proper fully-quoted reply-context, so I'll do that first
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benwerd (right now reply context is just "Ben replied to a post over on thissiteoverhere.com")
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tantek benwerd - hmm - I didn't think of it like that
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tantek my reply-contexts are quite minimal right now too:
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benwerd I mean, the actual feature is different
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benwerd but
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benwerd it'll use a lot of the same code
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tantek e.g. http://tantek.com/2013/132/t2/been-t-since-day-joined-2006
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benwerd right: http://werd.io/view/51d92304bed7de880fc087cb pretty much the same
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tantek I kind of like our minimal reply contexts
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tantek showing one end of the spectrum
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benwerd I do too, but on the other hand, I also like aaronpk's tiled multi-replies
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tantek we should probably grab/post screenshots
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tantek just to show folks who are implementing that its ok to be this minimal
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Loqi it is probable
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tantek reposts/retweets I see as perhaps different UI
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tantek but I've already thought about how I want to make reposts/retweets on my own site work in terms of POSSE - which is important to me because it would *replace* my use of any native Twitter retweeting: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Reposts_of_Tweets
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tantek e.g. like your recent native Twitter retweet of my post
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benwerd right, that's important
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benwerd I feel like that's a missing piece too
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@platform3 RT @t: Why not to post (on Medium)²:
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tantek benwerd what's the missing piece?
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benwerd retweets / reposts via POSSE instead of natively
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tantek I think reposts are strict reposts - nothing added
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tantek sandeep (by example) thinks adding hashtags is ok
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demis hey benwerd when you create a twitter app for the Idno Twitter plugin, what would you put in for the application description and website?
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demis does it need to point back to url/twitter?
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benwerd website should probably be your idno URL
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benwerd description doesn't matter
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benwerd callback should be the one specified on the twitter admin page in idno
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tantek.com edited /Twitter (+785) "Twitter iOS client API root" (view diff)
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tantek has anyone besides StatusNet re-engineered the Twitter API sufficiently to trick the Twitter iOS client into being a client for their own site? details: http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#iOS_client
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shaners @tantek I know @mislav extracted (from a client job) a Ruby Gem that does part of it. Read only.
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shaners https://github.com/mislav/twin
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shaners See also: WordPress.com http://en.support.wordpress.com/twitter-api/
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shaners and Tumblr: http://staff.tumblr.com/post/287703110/api
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demis benwerd: do I need to change any of the twitter app settings such as request settings from the defaults to get the twitter posting to work?
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benwerd no
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benwerd you need to make sure the callback is set properly (and that your twitter plugin is enabled!) and you should be good to go
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benwerd you do need to click on settings as your user, once the plugin's set up, to connect your idno account with your twitter account
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demis okay, should the app access be set to read only or read and write?
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benwerd if you want to POSSE, you'll want it to be able to write
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@matro RT @t: Your “Open API” with proprietary TOS is not open, it's a bizdev hook.
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melvster right ... time to implement friending
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melvster cool that worked, slvrbckt, I just added you ...
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benwerd melvster: link?
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melvster benward: it's just my homepage ... either: http://melvincarvalho.com/ html view or ... http://graphite.ecs.soton.ac.uk/browser/?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fmelvincarvalho.com%2F the data view
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melvster ps hi :)
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melvster benward: btw I actually patched he FOAF files in elgg once upon a time :)
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benwerd melvster: that must have been a long time ago! I think we removed the FOAF function in 2006!
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benwerd also, I'm the other ben ;)
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benwerd but that's really cool
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melvster ahhh
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benwerd "e" not "a", I mean. I *am* the ben that worked on elgg.
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melvster ahhhh
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melvster lol
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melvster great system
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melvster FOAF actually worked pretty nicely in elgg
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benwerd we pretty much used it as an import / export format. I was pretty proud of it
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benwerd but it never saw much use, alas
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melvster istr i patched it 2009 or 2010 ... needed a bit of content negotiation to get it in really good shape, but i never got round to that ... essentially so that you can have dual human and machine readable profiles
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melvster problem with foaf is that rdf/xml became *really* unpopular
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melvster but you can just embed it straight in the HTML now with the rel tag, that's the path of least resistance
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melvster so to add slvrbckt i just need sed -i and
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melvster <li><a rel="foaf:knows" href="http://silverbucket.net/#nkj">Nick Jennings</a></li>
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melvster so essentially uni directional friending implemented in half an hour
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benwerd I'd be inclined to use xfn, as I think it probably has more real-world use (due to WordPress, in part), but there's no harm in also including foaf attributes
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melvster benwerd: good point ... if people start using xfn for anything practical i can do a quick cut and paste
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melvster right now you can actually surf through all the different profiles I link to by clicking through that data view ... the cloud actually extends for quite a few million profiles
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benwerd I'd say it's pretty practical
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benwerd eg, here in indieweb circles, rel="me" is used all over the place
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melvster yup, i use rel="me" for indieauth
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melvster benwerd: the read only version of FOAF is great, but it's essentially just a browsing tool, once you can read and write in the data view, things get slightly more interesting ...
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melvster actually elgg had some nice forms for adding values to your profile
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melvster so many things about elgg were great design
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benwerd isn't that what the IndieWeb is all about? your web presence being writeable, fully under your control, and also an API?
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benwerd and thank you! :)
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melvster benwerd: yep there's a pretty big overlap with what's going on in indieweb, and it's nice to see people actually implementing stuff and testing it, so we are learning all the time :)
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benwerd :)
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melvster 4 things to implement next for me are : microblogging / web of trust / micropayments / PKI
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benwerd ha! 4 things to implement next for me are: retweeting / comics / friends pages / groups
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benwerd I am *very* interested to see micropayments
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melvster benwerd: sounds very cool ... i remember the groups system from elgg too ... micropayments are quite tricky, ive been following the space for 15 years, so I have a few ideas by now :)
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melvster i essentially want to bootstrap existing currencies but also allow new currencies, the system will be currency agnostic
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melvster a web of trust can also help with payments
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melvster logrithmic trust, so that you dont get too much in one place
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benwerd I'm not sure I trust webs of trust, but that's a topic for another time
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benwerd off to Tech For Good across the bay