#indiewebcamp 2013-06-28

2013-06-28 UTC
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www.sandeep.io edited /responses (+1208) "/* object of action */ Clarified what I meant by common usage, why thing over object/post, liked is past tense and note about object-of-mention." (view diff)
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bret i really dig the mozilla logos http://blog.seanmartell.com/brands/ especially the hobbes one
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bret is there any advantage or disadvantes to using or not using www.?
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aaronpk your root domain cannot be a CNAME record, it has to point to an IP address. that has implications for where you host your site, but that's really the only technical reason I can think of
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bret so basically if the site was going to change IPs and you had a free dyndns or something www would be usefull
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aaronpk no not quite
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aaronpk you can still change the IP just as easily with an A record
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aaronpk it's more of an issue for larger-scale systems that use load balancing and such
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bret something I have never dealt with
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KevinMarks it can be an issue hosting on heroku or other AWS based
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aaronpk if you host your root domain on heroku, they have to give you an IP address to point to. that means they're more limited in how they can shuffle things around behind the scenes
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aaronpk whereas if you point www.example.com -> example.herokuapp.com they can change things easier on their end
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aaronpk but more and more these providers are adding better support for root domains
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aaronpk for example http://aws.amazon.com/about-aws/whats-new/2012/12/27/root-domain-support-on-amazon-s3-hosted-websites/
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aaronpk and more recently, adding root domain support to cloudfront http://aws.typepad.com/aws/2013/06/custom-ssl-domain-names-root-domain-hosting-for-amazon-cloudfront.html
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+1560) "continue debunking excuses for 404" (view diff)
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@joshuajuran RT @benwerd: I'm going to eat burritos and talk #indieweb tomorrow night: http://werd.io/event/51ccc9ecbed7deaf58e8ff5e/indieweb-burritos
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk hmm, it does occur to me that it's far more difficult to send back a "410" code than it is to serve a static file
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aaronpk you'd have to implement the 410s in an htaccess file if you're using jekyll for example
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aaronpk in that sense it's slightly more difficult to maintain than the original comment
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aaronpk oh there's already a note about jekyll
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aaronpk bret: i'm heading to side door right now, then stopping by the appfog party later tonight fyi
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tantek scrolls up
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bret yeah im still really buys around the apartment right now, not going to be able to be free for a while
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tantek pdurbin - I don't see the point of "linked data" above and beyond
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tantek "just use JSON"
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bret is the appfog party a hack session?
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tantek or rather, JSONLD that is
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aaronpk no it's just a party :)
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tantek it's just yet another DRY violation design - I mean really? who cares?
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aaronpk which is why i'm stopping by there on my way home, not starting there
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tantek just use HTML+microformats2. If you want JSON, parse it with an open source parser. Done.
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bret ahh i see, well have fun! we should try another time for sure though
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tantek aaronpk - nice UI!
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bret especially if you are going to be around portland
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aaronpk thx!
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aaronpk bret: i'm around portland for another week, then will be out of town a bunch
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aaronpk back later!
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bret doh, ill drink some portland coffee for you homee when you are away
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tantek aaronpk - re: far more difficult to send back a "410" code than it is to serve a static file - then put the 410 in the static file
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted#Brainstorming
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tantek first meta in the static file: <meta http-equiv="Status" content="410 GONE"/>
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bret tantek i wish google let you do 301 redirects via static files
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bret i was unable to do a domain change in the webmaster tools tool
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bret its still showing my old domain
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bret in search results
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tantek search results take a while to update too
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tantek I think even when I *am* returning a 410 status code, I'm going to put that meta in the returned HTML.
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bret i like the static approach because the html itself communicates the issue
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+144) "/* Brainstorming */ in addition" (view diff)
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bret rather than relying on a webserver to get it right
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tantek bret indeed. and it's the machine equivalent for the static prose in the file saying "this content has been deleted" or whatever
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@sandeepshetty Every time I look at /mentions and see the decentralized conversations and likes, I get a smile on my face #indieweb http://www.sandeep.io/93
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pdurbin tantek: oh good... it's not just me :)
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tantek next time someone pitches you something like that just ask them how they're using it on their own personal site
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tantek and if they're not, then just walk away
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tantek (hint: nearly all the time they're not)
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tantek (hint2: instead they'll ask you to join a discussion on an email list)
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pdurbin well, it's tim berner lee's idea :)
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tantek so Tim shipped an implementation of HTML, HTTP, URL.
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tantek that's why those took off as "his idea"
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tantek same cannot be said about RDF, or linked data
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tantek no one gets a pass on selfdogfooding.
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pdurbin hmm, somehow i thought folks in this channel are into rdf. maybe I'm thinking of something else
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tantek tommorris has some history there. but no, RDF is one of the big rocks that gets in your way of actually getting things done.
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tantek as nearly all DRY violations are.
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pdurbin heh
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benwerd once got booed for talking down RDF on stage
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pdurbin tommorris: I did notice you in #swig ... logs at http://chatlogs.planetrdf.com/swig/2013-06-27.html
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tantek tommorris does actually use/deploy stuff on his own site, which is why his word carries a lot more weight.
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tantek than the usual RDFer.
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pdurbin benwerd: booed huh? :)
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benwerd well, by the proportion of the crowd that cared
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benwerd my formative Oxford Geek Night experience *nod*
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tantek benwerd - this got cheered: http://www.flickr.com/photos/designbyfront/4965097540/
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benwerd I would have joined in!
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tantek I was there too: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/5232835594/
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benwerd can't believe i've never been to dConstruct
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tantek this would be an excellent year to go
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benwerd might go this year, now that I live 5000+ miles away, ironically
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tantek since we're doing an IndieWebCampUK on the Sunday 2 days after it
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benwerd indeed - you'll see me on the attendee list
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benwerd doing my best to arrange to be there
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tantek LOL hadn't seen this version before: http://www.flickr.com/photos/yoz/6270904049/
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aaronpk tantek: yea cool, just saw that after reading the /deleted page
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tantek I don't think sandeep gets the design principle of starting protocols/formats small, restricted, conservative, and only expanding them as needed by real world use cases.
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tantek I'll keep following up on his arguments, but I think there's a larger methodological / principled misunderstanding there.
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aaronpk he did pretty good with webmention
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tantek which is ironic, because in the stuff HE comes up with, it's VERY small, minimal, conservative.
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tantek and he takes other stuff (like pingback) and SHRINKS it
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tantek right
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tantek so he's thinking/designing properly when he's creating, but not when arguing on the wiki
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tantek it's strange
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tantek usually people have the opposite problem
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tantek they talk a good talk, but then falter when it comes to action
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aaronpk interesting how my prioritized list of itches changes from day to day on p3k
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tantek aaronpk - exactly - that's what happens when you write them down publicly :)
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tantek ah here's the one with the longer discussion thread: http://www.flickr.com/photos/29022619@N03/4968410475/
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tantek if only there were a way to relate all those photos together as being of the same event, perhaps some way to LINK their DATA :P
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tantek like perhaps HYPERLINKS in HTML: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tantek/5232835594/page1/#comment72157634363218403
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aaronpk lol! i was waiting for the punchline
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+266) "re-prioritizing itches" (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+73) "/* Features */" (view diff)
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benwerd oh, I like that idea.
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KevinMarks I like Danny O'Brien's comment "RDF was the LSD of the 90s"
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tantek KevinMarks, it wasn't nearly that visionary.
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aaronpk tantek: lol!
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@t federated #indieweb comments, likes, event + RSVPs demo by @benwerd:
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tantek benwerd - your POSSE'd @-replies are not threading!
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benwerd tantek - they aren't when there are two targets. I broke something! I had made the primary reply the post on your site
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/reply#POSSE_a_comment
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benwerd I'm going to change the way that works, so you never have a "primary" reply target in my interface
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tantek benwerd you can automatically determine the POSSE tweet copy via rel-syndication
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/Twitter#POSSE_Replies_to_Twitter
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benwerd yep, haven't implemented rel-syndication discovery yet
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benwerd that's on the to-do
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benwerd I'm writing my itches list right now, inspired by aaronpk ;)
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tantek benwerd - that's exactly why I added the rel-syndication links to my posts at IndieWebCamp!
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tantek it's why it was the top feature on my to-do list
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tantek so that folks with *better* reply code could reply to my posts, and have their POSSE tweet replies thread with the POSSE tweet of my original post.
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bret too bad my site was so ugly the day benwerd shot that video
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tantek bret - nothing like vanity to stoke those selfdogfood priorities huh? ;)
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bret it looks remotely better a day later
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bret http://bret.io/2013/06/25/t2/
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tantek you never know when someone might make a screencast of your site and freeze your look&feel
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tantek bret - nice URL design ;)
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bret :)
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bret I need to fix the page title though
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werd.io edited /idno (+1590) "Added itches section, briefly discussed IndieFriends" (view diff)
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KevinMarks heh, or send yo a pull request with better CSS like fred did for me
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KevinMarks does anyone know node express and sessions, BTW?
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aaronpk yea I even do that to myself: http://aaronparecki.com/notes/2012/09/09/3/indieweb (re: freezing the look/feel)
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KevinMarks my kludges seem to be preserving state globally, ratehr than per user
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KevinMarks which is problematic when you're auth'd as them to twitter
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werd.io edited /idno (+32) "/* IndieFriends */" (view diff)
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bret tantek or aaronpk, could I move a generic version the github repository I use for my site into the indiewebcamp group? Im thinking about doing something similar to octopress where people interested in using it can fork off of a generic version easily and track developemnt updates
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KevinMarks did y'all see heroku fork today?
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bret no what happened?
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tantek so far we're only using the indieweb repo for building blocks - not for any entire sites or platforms
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tantek re: bret
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bret oh i see
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bret ok
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KevinMarks https://blog.heroku.com/archives/2013/6/27/heroku-fork
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tantek we'd like to avoid any even implicit monoculture tendencies
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bret that make sense
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benwerd KevinMarks: oh, that's cute
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tantek building blocks good. monoculture bad.
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benwerd so you can fork an application and immediately have an installed version
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aaronpk tantek: I like that criteria for the indieweb github group
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tantek aaronpk - feel free to add it to the group description!
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KevinMarks this is edging close to what I want which is 'spawn me a running instance of this github repo'
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aaronpk in that caes should I remove https://github.com/indieweb/friendsunhosted and https://github.com/indieweb/helloworld and https://github.com/indieweb/libreprojects?
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aaronpk probably also https://github.com/indieweb/ToS-DR
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benwerd KevinMarks: if they were able to give the source project a kickback for new accounts forking their software, I'd be all over that (I'm not too proud to say)
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KevinMarks yeah, that makes sense, and does fit in with the existing plugins model
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bret tantek what was the deal with these death to the semantic web
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bret pictures
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benwerd Goodnight all
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Loqi sleep tight!
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bret bye!
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bret are we doing semantic web stuff?
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KevinMarks only in lowercase
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tantek aaronpk - perhaps we should grandfather those projects rather than delete them.
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tantek They haven't been updated in a while
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tantek so people will know to treat them accordingly
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tantek Maybe edit their descriptions accordingly.
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aaronpk well the indieweb repos are just forks
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tantek oh?
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tantek I thought those might have been originals
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tantek especially helloworld from mime
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aaronpk yea they're all forks. I think sandeep just forked a couple relevant projects when we set up the org so that it wouldn't be empty
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aaronpk but now that we're actually developing useful building blocks there those are less relevant
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@kevinmarks #indiewebcamp @t: we'd like to avoid any even implicit monoculture tendencies
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KevinMarks wonders if I should give up on cookies and just use local storage
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tantek hey Kevinmarks you can always link to the IRC logs to cite permalinks to IRC quotes ;)
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tantek e.g. http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-27#t1372384211
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KevinMarks oho
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KevinMarks I like this physics based defence of modularity: http://peternixey.com/post/54026285667/beware-your-projects-schwarzschild-radius
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aaronpk lol "BTW if this all makes sense then feel good because it really is rocket science."
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tantek KevinMarks I tend to be skeptical of physics analogies to anything virtual / CS.
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bret I wonder if a https://svbtle.com/ type news site might more appropriate than the way indienews is set up right now. Like more of a community weblog where the submission process is the same as indie news, but the emphasis is more on the order of submission and medium sized previews rather than voting on titles
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bret also the emphasis would be on getting more people to adopt indie web technologies rather than asskissing silicon valley types
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bret in order to publish
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KevinMarks did you get https://www.potluck.it/ invites too?
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bret who me?
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KevinMarks very silo'd
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aaronpk bret: I think you mean more like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet_(software) than svbtle
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bret ya
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KevinMarks planetplanet is very webmentionesque
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bret I have never heard of this
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aaronpk and possibly not pulling in the full content, just a preview kind of like facebook size previews
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bret right
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aaronpk oh god i'm getting old
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KevinMarks heh, Jon Abrams just joined potluck, talking of getting old
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bret what is potluck
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KevinMarks it's a link-sharing silo built by branch
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aaronpk potluck is a link-sharing silo built by branch
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KevinMarks that you have to create an account at by verifying your email
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aaronpk there, now loqi will answer
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aaronpk what is potluck?
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Loqi potluck is a link
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aaronpk dammit loqi
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bret What is potluck?
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Loqi potluck is a link
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aaronpk potluck is a link sharing silo built by branch
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bret What is potlick?
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aaronpk overly aggressive regex
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aaronpk what is potluck?
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Loqi potluck is a link sharing silo built by branch
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aaronpk better
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bret whoa
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KevinMarks potlick is what you do when the soup was really tasty
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bret What is potlick?
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Loqi potlick is what you do when the soup was really tasty
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bret sup
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KevinMarks I didn't realise Loqi did implicit jibot defs
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Loqi :)
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KevinMarks the http://planet.intertwingly.net/ could be a good model for an indeiweb reader
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KevinMarks the memes feed is great usually
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aaronpk bret: there's always http://news.indiewebcamp.com/newest
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aaronpk haha, but yea I get your point
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KevinMarks the memes feed is anything that 3 or more blogs link to, wiht refs
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aaronpk KevinMarks: that's a neat idea
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aaronpk PlanetIndie?
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aaronpk maybe I can make a config option in the IndieNews source code to turn it into more of a Planet than a Reddit, then I can launch one at planet.indiewebcamp.com
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KevinMarks fear of an indie planet
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aaronpk sounds like an album title
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+1380) "/* Photos */ additional notes about photos" (view diff)
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aaronpk currently doing research on event RSVP pages
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@BillSeitz federated #IndieWeb comments, likes, event + RSVPs demo by @BenWerd:
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aaronpk wow there really isn't an RSVP icon
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aaronpk well this took an unexpected direction
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aaronpk well that wasn't quite what I expected, but I'm pretty happy with it:
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/25/3/indiewebcamp
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aaronpk http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/27/1/indieweb
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+21) "RSVPs are now visually marked on their permalink pages" (view diff)
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bret aaronpk looks great! I like the traffic light analogy
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bret I better get an RSVP out to that event, I already claimed bens free drink
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aaronpk haha how did you claim the drink if you didn't rsvp yet?
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bret ben bought me coffee the day before he left
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neuro` Good morning UGT
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pfefferle Good Morning
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bret hi!
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aaronpk good morning ;)
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tommorris pdurbin, and (absent) tantek: I self-dogfood RDFa. I'm using it to express extra semantics
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tommorris and have been doing RDF stuff for years
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tommorris anyway, I've just woken up. ;)
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pfefferle what extra semantics exactly?
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tommorris sexual orientation and dietary preference
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pfefferle Ah ok, but only as Markup, Not via webmention?
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pfefferle I read your Post about that
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bret.io edited /IndieAuth (-140) "/* To do */ Removed the add persona as an identity provder item from the indieauth todo list" (view diff)
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aaronpk thanks!
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:irc_user (+40) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:irc_user (+44) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:irc_user (+0) (view diff)
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bret you did all the hard work :p
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aaronparecki.com edited /Template:irc_user (+11) (view diff)
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aaronparecki.com edited /IRC_People (+5) (view diff)
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-26/line/1372314484 (pingback)
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aaronpk bret: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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bret !!!!
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bret cool!
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aaronpk magic!
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bret sparkles!
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bret great work aaronpk!
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aaronpk well this should be interesting to see what happens with this
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bret it has been a firehose of new ideas
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aaronpk lol oops it went to indienews too http://news.indiewebcamp.com/post/aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/1/indieweb
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bret aaronpk, i have an idea to speed up indieauth
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aaronpk me too
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bret enable cookies? so I dont have to log in every time
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bret XD
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aaronpk haha
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aaronpk well
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aaronpk i guess that would work, but right now i'm not storing any state in indieauth which is nice. i'd rather keep it that way.
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aaronpk there is no "logged in" state
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bret ah, i presume thats a bit easier to deal with from a security standpoint?
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aaronpk my thought was to cache the list of providers on your domain and whether they are verified/supported, so that you don't have to wait for them to be checked every time. I would also provide a "refresh" button so you can force reload it if you change your site
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bret is tommorris displaying comment replies?
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aaronpk can't remember
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aaronpk ok it's late. that's all for me tonight!
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bret Bye!
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bret great work!
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Loqi [mention] http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/2/indieweb linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-25/line/1372212712 (pingback)
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bret gnight
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pdurbin tommorris: cool, cool. I'm open to new ideas :)
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Loqi barnabywalters: tantek left you a message 12 hours, 33 minutes ago: re: wrapper around PHP DOMDocument - totally agreed. That's an itch of mine too, since I used PHP DOMDocument to read/write my storage files. I want to wrap it with actual JS DOM written in #cassis.js naturally.
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tommorris pdurbin: so, you can layer RDFa and microformats-2 (and microformats original - is there a name for that? classic?) quite nicely.
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tommorris there's a bit of DRY fail there
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tommorris but meh.
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tommorris I'd like to do RDFa-based webmention too. shouldn't be too hard especially now the RDFa parsers have left the realm of XHTML theory and entered the world of HTML5-based reality. ;)
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pdurbin ah, I think microformats were the thing I was thinking of. that people in this room are into, perhaps. rather than RDF. sounds like they're pretty different
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tommorris RDFa lets you represent RDF in HTML. Microformats original have their own data model. Microformats-2 have a consistent JSON representation.
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pdurbin ok. I guess I'm not sure why I would want either one. maybe I'll go read up on them a bit :)
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tommorris pdurbin: so you want one or both to markup the page to be parseable
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tommorris so, if you run my page through an RDFa parser, you get back data like this - https://gist.github.com/tommorris/5474597
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tommorris run tantek's site through a microformats2 parser and you get back data like this - http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F&callback=&filters=
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tommorris you can then use that data for interesting things. ;)
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@paulbooker RT @t: federated #indieweb comments, likes, event + RSVPs demo by @benwerd:
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pfefferle tommorris: do you know a good rdfa parser written in php?
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tommorris pfefferle: haven't looked recently.
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pfefferle what do you use?
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tommorris I mostly these days use rdflib in Python
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tommorris I may try Ruby's RDFa parser at some point
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pfefferle thanks
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tommorris arc2 might work. haven't tried it for a while
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tommorris arc2 is the main PHP parser AFAIK
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pfefferle but i think i have read that development has stopped :(
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barnabywalters https://packagist.org/search/?q=rdfa
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tommorris these days, I'm lazy enough that when something isn't available in a language I want, I just make a simple HTTP server to serve it up.
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pfefferle barnabywalters: thanks! should spend more time with the whole composer stuff
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tommorris that's how I'm using microformats-node
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pdurbin tommorris: I'm looking at your gist. seeing some foaf stuff, which I've looked at before
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tommorris easyrdf looks like the solution in php
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tommorris pdurbin: so, the difference between RDF-world and microformats is with microformats, schema development is centralised and community-driven
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tommorris whereas anyone can make their own RDF schema/ontology
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tommorris so, in the JSON example I've given there, I've used a mixture of FOAF, Schema, DBPedia (for 'sexualOrientation') and schema.tommorris.org/diet (for 'dietaryPreference')
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tommorris you can mix and match ontologies
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tommorris also, GND (mostly to prove a point) and Geo (which is the geographical schema most people use and is blessed by w3c)
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pdurbin tommorris: sounds very flexible
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pdurbin tommorris: http://microformat2-node.jit.su/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftantek.com%2F&callback=&filters= reminds me a lot of looking at an RSS feed
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tommorris yep. well, you can represent in most of the semantics-in-HTML solutions something like an RSS feed
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tommorris but without the don't repeat yourself of publishing a separate XML version
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pdurbin hmm, I guess publishing an RSS feed as well would be repeating yourself... but RSS is still pretty popular. people like being able to subscribe to RSS feeds
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grawity publish an Atom feed :P
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tommorris yep. it's a philosophy vs. practicality decision
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tommorris ideally, HTML would be everything you need. but in practice, you probably need to publish an Atom feed.
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pdurbin I'm not even sure if I publish atom or rss from my wiki
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barnabywalters pdurbin: there was talk of building a mf -> ATOM proxy server which would solve both problems
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pdurbin atom, looks like: http://wiki.greptilian.com ... to me it doesn't matter
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sandeepshetty !tell tantek: Will try to login later tonight (your morning) and discuss 404. I'm all for constraints and starting small... just coming from the angle that 404 is a valid response code for delete.
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pdurbin barnabywalters: cool. I guess I'll just stick with straight atom for now. I don't even use the feed myself but maybe some day I will. I doubt anyone else cares when I update my wiki :)
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sandeepshetty Se I spent sometime working on a uf2 reader yesterday and boy are there issues....
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pfefferle nice http://blog.superfeedr.com/pubsubhubbub-04/
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barnabywalters ^ wooo
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sandeepshetty it's looks like either there isn't a standard for publishing feeds in uf2 or no one is following it :)
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: i am trying to build something very similar, based on a pubsubhubbub client...
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: can you have a look: https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention
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pfefferle https://github.com/pfefferle/wordpress-webmention/issues/2
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sandeepshetty !tell aaronpk: Whoa! (RE http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-28/line/1372404587)
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: sent a webmention and it looks like it filtered the tag out.
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pfefferle once again?
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sandeepshetty yeah.. check the reply on my site and yours.
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: I think php-mf2 is doing some filtering.... /cc barnabywalters
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pfefferle still see the md syntax
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: filtering what?
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pfefferle still markdown
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pfefferle you have to change your syntax first ;)
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pfefferle you have still the markdown on your site ;)
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sandeepshetty so I'm using <http://example.com> which is markdown for linking without link text and I syndicate plaintext markdown so it will have the tag that way. Ideally if the receiver is picking up p-summary it should be encoded and not filtered or atleast encoded first and then filtered
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sandeepshetty right not it's just stipping <http://example.com> out of the reply which means loss of context
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sandeepshetty ideally should just appear as <http://example.com> where <> are encoded to &tl
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sandeepshetty and &gt;
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pfefferle aaaaah ok, then the parser does the right thing because it looks like a html tag
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: I didn’t add an option to turn on encoding of non e-* properties to my web UI yet but it’s in php-mf2
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pfefferle and p- does not contain any html
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: this is wrong. because I could be giving you html code example and it would strip it out..
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pfefferle why using md instead of html?
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sandeepshetty it shoudl encode and *not* filter
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pfefferle for the view?
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sandeepshetty I prefer syndicating md because if I send html and the receiver filters it then there will be loss of context (See indiewebcamp.com/plaintext)
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pfefferle but if it doesn't filter, you have to strip tags for every p- element
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pfefferle this is very hard on cms systems
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sandeepshetty the correct way to do this is to encode any p-* properties with htmlspecialchars() because < is plaintext mean < (but represented as &lt;)
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sandeepshetty s/< is/< in
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: the correct way to do this is to encode any p-* properties with htmlspecialchars() because < in plaintext mean < (but represented as &lt;)
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sandeepshetty you could choose to filter it after encoding
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pfefferle but that means that i can't use p-summary or p-name on my view, because they have html in it?
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sandeepshetty though encoding should be enough.. BTW, the encoding should be done only while displaying/echoing
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: it's not html after you encode it...
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pfefferle yes, but it looks like crap if every <p> in my code is displayed like that
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pfefferle because i have html in my summary
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pfefferle to mark it up
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: and like I mentioned there other are situations (like when I ahve html code examples in my comment) where you *will* get html tags in the comment
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: there shouldn't be <p> in p-* properties unless it is meant to be displayed that way
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barnabywalters sandeepshetty: pfefferle: if properties have been marked up with p-* and you’ve told the parser to act consistently THEY WILL NOT HAVE HTML IN
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sandeepshetty you shouldn't put html content in p-* properties.. thats what e-* are for
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Loqi it is probable
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pfefferle that means the parser crops it?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: p-* parsing rules usually = take the innerText / textContent of the node
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barnabywalters e-* means concatenate HTML representations of each child of the element
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sandeepshetty so when my comment had <http://example.com> it was meant to be displayed that way
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sandeepshetty gtg..
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barnabywalters only reason php-mf2 doesn’t escape none e-* properties by default is because it’s not in the parsing spec
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barnabywalters it will be default in v0.2
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pfefferle but i don't do any cropping!
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pfefferle i take what the parser returns
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pfefferle nothing more nothing less
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pfefferle that means that innerText is cropping your stuff
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barnabywalters as a mf consumer you have no control over whether or not the content is marked as p-* or e-*
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barnabywalters that responsibility lies with the author
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pfefferle yes, but will <http://example.com> be cropped or not?
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barnabywalters hence the importance of the parser behaving consistently for all property types
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barnabywalters pfefferle: no
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pfefferle but why i don't get it as a result?
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barnabywalters pfefferle: can you send me example code so I can actually see what you’re having problems with?
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pfefferle sandeepshetty can you please witch back to your old code with <url>
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pfefferle so we could test it?
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pfefferle ah ok
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pfefferle now i am on track
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pfefferle and i understand what you mean!!!
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pfefferle oh man i am so a noob today!!!
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pfefferle sorry sorry
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: I'm out (picking up my daughter from school). Be back in 40 min.
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pfefferle kk
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pfefferle !tell barnabywalters the parser works totally fine, i had a little blackout and haven't mentioned that <url> uses &lt
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pfefferle and &gt
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pfefferle and so it couldn't be cropped!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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pfefferle thanks
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pfefferle !tell barnabywalters, sandeepshetty I take everything back! I am right though!! you use a not <http://example.com> encoded instead &lt;http://example.com&gt
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pfefferle and that is skipped by the mf2 parser because he thinks it's a html-tag and ignores it! http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sandeep.io%2F92
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle thanks Loqi
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Loqi you're welcome
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pfefferle as far as i can see, the latest pubsubhubbub spec should also work with webmentions
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pfefferle you need to ping the server but it is not specified how
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pfefferle !tell barnabywalters I like the new rel-parser a lot, thanks!
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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www.sandeep.io edited /IRC_People (-1) "Fixed my timezone." (view diff)
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: so it's php-mf2 that is stripping out the tag?
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pfefferle yes, it it is totally right, that it does it
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pfefferle because he had to skip every html tag
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pfefferle and <url> looks like one
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pfefferle you have to encode it
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pfefferle even the browser can't display it properly
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pfefferle because he thinks it's a tag
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: think of it as a plaintext file.. you won't receive it with encoded < and >, it is the responsibility of the client that is displaying it to encode it based on the context (e.g., as part of a HTML document) in which it is displaying it.
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sandeepshetty what php-mf2 is doing is not right if it is stripping what look like tags from p-* content
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sandeepshetty *lloks
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sandeepshetty argh! *looks
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pfefferle as barnabywalters and i understand the spec, "p-" attributes has to be parsed like plain text, not they have to be plain text.
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pfefferle you can use html tags to have a nicer view, but the parser should only interpret the text and has to ignore the tags
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pfefferle even tantek is using html in his p-name http://tantek.com/2013/177/t1/historic-civil-rights-doma-dumped-prop8-dead-sb5
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sandeepshetty that cannot be right... given the simple scenario of having example html code in the content that is meant to be displayed as is and not stripped... if that is what the spec says then the spec is wrong. Where does it say you have to strip html in the spec?
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pfefferle if you have sample code, you have to encode it
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pfefferle vocabulary generic parsing, element text in general, treat certain HTML element/attribute combination as special and use those first, e.g. img/alt, abbr/title.
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pfefferle that means it can have html tags, but ignore them
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pfefferle http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2#naming_conventions_for_generic_parsing
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: encoding *cant* be done by the publisher because it does not know the context in which it will be displayed it.
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sandeepshetty that link doesn't say anything about stripping html
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pfefferle that said "treat certain HTML element/attribute combination as special and use those first, e.g. img/alt, abbr/title." it can include html and you should use the alt or title instead of the source
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sandeepshetty no that means pick up the plain text from the alt/title attribute....
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sandeepshetty see examples of h-card where it picks up the author name from an img alt attribute
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sandeepshetty it's taking about how to figure out what to treat as a p-* attribute.. not what it contains
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pfefferle yes and not: encode it
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sandeepshetty the spec should not and cannot talk about encoding..
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sandeepshetty it is the responsibility of the client that is displaying (to protect itself from XSS attacks, etc)
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pfefferle if you don't use encoding your reader can't see it anyways
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pfefferle it has to be encoded to be displayed
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sandeepshetty what is the "reader" here?
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pfefferle a person
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pfefferle what do you see if you display your p-summary
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sandeepshetty if the client that is displying it encodes it properly the reader *will* see it as it was meant to be seen
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pfefferle everything exempt the <http://example.com>
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pfefferle *except
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pfefferle because it is treated like a tag
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pfefferle you have to encode it, otherwise it's not displayed properly
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sandeepshetty it should not be treated like a tag because it was explicitly marked as plaintext with p-*
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pfefferle not for the person who reads the post, nor for the parser
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sandeepshetty yes the client (receiver) has to do that
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pfefferle let's talk about users not parsers
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: again, the sender cannot encode it because it does not the context in which it will be displayed (html, plaintext)
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pfefferle what will a user see if you display your p-summary
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sandeepshetty and this is about parser so talking about users doesn't help
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pfefferle no, it's about dry
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sandeepshetty the user should see <http://example.com>
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sandeepshetty which is what was sent
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pfefferle please disable the display none
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pfefferle he can't see it
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pfefferle because the browser thinks it's a tag
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sandeepshetty if I was sending html, yes I would encode the < and > in it...
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pfefferle no! your user won't see it!
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sandeepshetty ah wait .. I think we might have a disconnect
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sandeepshetty if the parser was picking up the e-content then it is right to strip it out because I am not encoding it
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pfefferle no, then it is not
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sandeepshetty ?
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pfefferle because then the whole content is used
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pfefferle with html tags
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sandeepshetty the stripping is for security..
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pfefferle no
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pfefferle it is because of the spec
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sandeepshetty it *has* to filter before displaying
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sandeepshetty actually it is both..
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pfefferle if you would mark up your code with e-conent all your html tags would be used
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pfefferle displaying is another thing
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sandeepshetty you are right in that it will skip it because it looks like an invalid tag.. and I'm talking about what it has to do before displaying
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sandeepshetty so it's the domdocument that is skipping it?
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pfefferle microformats is all about dry, that means the parser is using what the user sees
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pfefferle yes
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sandeepshetty I see what you mean now.. my bad..
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pfefferle because p- ignores all html elements
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sandeepshetty no this doesn't have to do with uf2 at all..
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sandeepshetty it's just invalid html for domdocument
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pfefferle no
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pfefferle :)
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pfefferle if you would use e- it would work
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pfefferle try it with a <br />
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pfefferle the parser will skip it
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sandeepshetty writting a test page
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sandeepshetty *writing
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pfefferle you can check it with my webmentions… on my page, they are marked up with html, on your site they are plain text
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pfefferle http://notizblog.org/2013/06/22/like/
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pfefferle http://www.sandeep.io/39
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pfefferle otherwise you wouldn't be able to use any html in p-
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pfefferle it's easy take this page http://www.sandeep.io/39
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pfefferle and remove the display none of the p-summary
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pfefferle the p-summary is meant to be visible for users and your output is very cryptic
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pfefferle DRY
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sandeepshetty see http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://www.sandeep.io/mentiontest.html
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sandeepshetty it has to be encoded in both.. notice how it's messed up in e-content..
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sandeepshetty it's just an html issue on my part that I need to fix..
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sandeepshetty it's not related to uf2
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sandeepshetty since I'm sure I'm only syndicating plaintext, I need to encode it.
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pfefferle that is the source code i get https://gist.github.com/pfefferle/5884940
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pfefferle on your demo site
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sandeepshetty yes..
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pfefferle that means the first is encoded
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pfefferle and than it works
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pfefferle that's what i menat
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sandeepshetty yes to show that encoding it will fix it
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pfefferle meant
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sandeepshetty and the second is not to show that its not about putting it in e-content
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pfefferle no, it will work if you encode it
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pfefferle use <br /> instead
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pfefferle please
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sandeepshetty yes both will work if you encode it because otherwise <http://example.com> is treated as an invalid html
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pfefferle and don't encode both
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pfefferle please
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: I know that <br /> will work.. just trying to highlight that *this* issue is because of invalid html that I'm generating and not related to uf2
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pfefferle please try it
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pfefferle it will be skipped by summary!!!
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pfefferle your example only proofs that <http://example.com> is a wrong tag… not more, not less
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sandeepshetty maing changes for <br /> and deploying
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: yes.. I was specifically trying to test that only
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pfefferle ok, i will set up the test page for you
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: Mine is being pushed
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sandeepshetty give it two min and we can see what <br /> test looks like
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sandeepshetty ok you can check now
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sandeepshetty it stripped out <br />.. that it shouldn't have done
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sandeepshetty (from p-summary)
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pfefferle http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://gist.github.com/pfefferle/5884991/raw/fd89f277dbab402aac3ac7eb803c79f25aa87717/test.html
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sandeepshetty yeah same result..
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sandeepshetty that to me is not right..
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sandeepshetty the parser should not strip out html from p-summary..
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pfefferle but to display plain text WITH html unencoded isn't right eather
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pfefferle https://gist.github.com/pfefferle/5885011
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sandeepshetty it could choose to encode it but it shouldn't.. it should leave it up to the client
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pfefferle that is what you show to your users
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pfefferle p-summary should be user friendly
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pfefferle micro formats shouldn't be hidden
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: if you put html in what you've said is plaintext, it means you want to show it encoded
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pfefferle DRY
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sandeepshetty p-summary *will* be hidden even if I have html e-content
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pfefferle yes, but if you want to show it encoded, then you have to encode it, otherwise the browser will suck it
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sandeepshetty no point in showing users both e-content and p-summary
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pfefferle yes
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pfefferle but you can't show unencoded html on a html page
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sandeepshetty sorry did not understand..
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pfefferle you have to encode it, otherwise the browser interprets it
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sandeepshetty I'm not showing encoded html anywhere
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pfefferle because your markdown interpreter will do that for you
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sandeepshetty md doesn't do anything to p-summary
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pfefferle http://www.sandeep.io/39
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sandeepshetty and that it what you will pick up.. so everything else is out of scope..
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pfefferle you are using encoded html here
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pfefferle in the code box
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pfefferle for p-summary you don't encode it… the user get's only text… no example code!
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pfefferle it is not readable in the browser
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sandeepshetty right.. we are on the same page on that... I already said that it's a problem that I'm not encoding my p-summary
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pfefferle yes, and if you do so, the parser would run perfectly fine
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sandeepshetty and that is the only issue here... it's a problem at the HTML level..
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pfefferle because then it isn't html any more
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pfefferle yes, because the parser skips html for p-
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sandeepshetty even if there was no uf2 on the page.. this is a problem.. so it has nothing to do with uf2 is all I'm saying
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: It looks like I broke the logs
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sandeepshetty !tell aaronpk: It looks like I broke the logs: Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'Exception' with message 'DateTimeZone::__construct(): Unknown or bad timezone (Asia/Mumbai)' in /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/inc.php:118 Stack trace: #0 /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/inc.php(118): DateTimeZone->__construct('Asia/Mumbai') #1 /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/logs.php(226): formatLine(Array) #2 {main} thrown in /
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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pfefferle kind of
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sandeepshetty but you were right about it being an issue with me not encoding..
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www.sandeep.io edited /IRC_People (+1) (view diff)
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pfefferle :)
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pfefferle we were very noisy...
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sandeepshetty !tell aaronpk: Fixed it. Might want to handle invalid timezones to avoid killing the logs
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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sandeepshetty I know :)
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sandeepshetty though some of these things need to be documented now..
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sandeepshetty will do it after I fix my implementation
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pfefferle but what about if you encode your stuff in p-summary? should the parser encode also the "real" tags?
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sandeepshetty I shouldn't have "real" tags in p-summary and if anyone encoded it then they are right in doing so.
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Loqi yea
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pfefferle "shouldn't" mean they have to be ignored and that is exactly what the parser does ;)
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sandeepshetty I think in both cases the problem is with the publisher
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pfefferle yeo
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pfefferle yep
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sandeepshetty but I don't think the parser ignores it right?
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pfefferle it does
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sandeepshetty can you add more content after the <br />
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sandeepshetty actually that is already in my test page
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pfefferle http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=https://gist.github.com/pfefferle/5884991/raw/6f28ffc4d913c7b87b75d839e48b207d5482e00e/test.html
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sandeepshetty yeah was also there in my test page..
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sandeepshetty I'm thinking it's not right to just strip it. encoding it might be better... but again I think that should be left to the client.
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sandeepshetty Need to figure out why it does that in the first place to saying anything about it.
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sandeepshetty *say
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pfefferle because p- should be parsed as plain text
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pfefferle and that means no tags
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: encoded but now it affects your auto-linking code :) http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/
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pfefferle yes, crappy wordpress ;)
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: just realised this might have been the same thing that affected <3
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sandeepshetty so the summary of our noisy discussion is that we must encode p-summary to account for things like html code snippets and emoticons <3 in it?
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pfefferle yes
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pfefferle and that tags should be ignored
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sandeepshetty that part I'm not convinced about yet :) I still prefer leaving it up to the client
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: testing the <3 post again by re-sending that webmetnion
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pfefferle seems to work
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sandeepshetty haven't tested it yet.. did you?
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pfefferle yes
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: ooops fixed
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Loqi aaronpk: sandeepshetty left you a message 3 hours, 37 minutes ago: Whoa! (RE http://indiewebcamp.com/irc/2013-06-28/line/1372404587)
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Loqi aaronpk: sandeepshetty left you a message 36 minutes ago: It looks like I broke the logs: Fatal error: Uncaught exception 'Exception' with message 'DateTimeZone::__construct(): Unknown or bad timezone (Asia/Mumbai)' in /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/inc.php:118 Stack trace: #0 /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/inc.php(118): DateTimeZone->__construct('Asia/Mumbai') #1 /web/sites/indiewebcamp.com/www/irc/logs.php(226): formatLine(Array) #2 {main} thrown in /
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Loqi aaronpk: sandeepshetty left you a message 33 minutes ago: Fixed it. Might want to handle invalid timezones to avoid killing the logs
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sandeepshetty (y)
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Loqi [mention] http://erinjorichey.com/storytlr/entry/indie-web-comments-test-1-4.html linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/comment (pingback)
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Loqi [mention] http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2013/06/28/indieweb-webmention-support-for-elgg/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/Main_Page (pingback)
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@mapkyca #blog #indieweb WebMention support for Elgg http://www.marcus-povey.co.uk/2013/06/28/indieweb-webmention-support-for-elgg/?utm_content=bufferb427d&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
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Loqi tantek: sandeepshetty left you a message 4 hours, 36 minutes ago: Will try to login later tonight (your morning) and discuss 404. I'm all for constraints and starting small... just coming from the angle that 404 is a valid response code for delete.
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tantek sandeepshetty the problem is that 404 could mean so many other things, that you cannot interpret it *specifically* as a delete. It's too vague.
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tantek and vagueness is bad when it comes to handling a destructive action like delete
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tantek whereas 410 permanent removal pretty much means a delete as specified, so that's all we need.
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tantek simpler design = we have 410 which works, therefore no need to confuse anyone with 404.
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@nd_kane @alicaurusrex @iambettywood Write good, quality content and people will find it! #contentout #indieweb #ihateseoandsoshouldyou
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tantek is summarizing the arguments against 404 as delete, since it still seems to be confusing.
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tommorris 410 argument sounds reasonable
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tantek.com created /deleted-404-discussion (+6130) "move lengthy discussion of why 404 must not be considered a delete to separate page" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /deleted () "(-4166) summarize reasons why not to treat 404 as a delete, and move lengthy back/forth to a separate page" (view diff)
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tantek tommorris, yeah, keeping protocols simpler seems like protocol design 101 to me.
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sandeepshetty tantek: converspace doesn't have delete yet, both for it's own post and for webmentions. It's next in my queue (which is why I've been thinking about this)... I don't have plans to store deleted content or mentions which makes it difficult for me to send a 410
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tantek doing a good job at protocols is not necessarily "easy"
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tantek "I don't have plans to implement" is not an excuse to screw up a protocol
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tantek consider keeping tombstones for deleted URLs as a part of cool URIs don't change.
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tantek http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI.html
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+284) "/* Issues */ record No plans to implement and why that's a non-issue" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+458) "/* Issues */ additional techniques for implementation" (view diff)
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aaronpk all you have to do is store the URL somewhere, you don't need to store the actual deleted content
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aaronpk could even be done in an .htaccess file that sets the response code to 410, lol
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tantek aaronpk - yup
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erikmaarten Does anybody want to try my webmention "implementation"?
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sandeepshetty tantek: I guess I come from the worse is better school... for me implementation simplicity is more important than correctness
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+84) "add subheads to be able to reference individual issues" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty storing URLs also means another query everywhere
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tantek aaronpk - exactly I noted that here: http://indiewebcamp.com/deleted#No_Plans_To_Implement
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tantek will add your .htaccess comment
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+81) "/* No Plans To Implement */ htaccess even" (view diff)
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tantek sandeepshetty - format simplicity is more important than protocol simplicity is more important than implementation simplicity
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: sure, what do you need?
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tantek "worse is better" is never a good design principle. it's just a laziness principle.
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tantek formats last longer than protocols last longer than implementations. hence the priority
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sandeepshetty I guess we can choose to disagree on that :)
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tantek "simpler is better" is good. "worse is better" is not.
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: Send a regular webmention to me, please. Nothing fancy, very basic support so far (works with my own posts, but that's not much of an assurance). address: http://erikmaarten.com/articles/2013/06/28/testing-webmention
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sandeepshetty and since everyone else seems to prefer this I will give in but note my disagreement
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tantek sandeep, xmlrpc is worse but that doesn't make pingback better
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tantek "worse is better" is a really crappy way to reason about anything
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sandeepshetty tantek: you can't take worse is better literally.. you have to understand what it prioritizes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better
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sandeepshetty My motivation to come up with webmention was to make something simpler to implement..
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tantek right, so say "simpler is better", not "worse is better"
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aaronpk erikmaarten: I sent you one too :)
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sandeepshetty but it already means something..
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tantek the WP article even starts with essentially saying simpler
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tantek "less functionality" = simpler
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tantek sandeep - no, people don't read it like that in summary
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sandeepshetty I used worse is better as a label .. I was guessing that you know the details
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tantek in summary, "worse is better" is treated as "lazier is better"
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tantek especially in conversations
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tantek in the WP article, "worse" has a specific meaning, meaning, less
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sandeepshetty yeah but it's not meant to be in quotes.. it's a label for something
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tantek so cut out the middlemand
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tantek and just say simpler
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tantek "simpler is better" is better than "worse is better"
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tantek yeah, it's a crappy label
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sandeepshetty but it's not just about simpler is better.. it also about the other prioritities
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sandeepshetty simpler over correct
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sandeepshetty (thought but just a little)
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sandeepshetty *(though only slightly)
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: can't get to that url..
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erikmaarten aaronpk: great, thanks! Sitting in the database now.
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: No? How do you mean, can't get to?
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sandeepshetty Oops! Google Chrome could not connect to erikmaarten.com
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sandeepshetty tantek: so from that perpective, I would have preferred 404 but since everyone else thinks otherwise I'll stop now on this issue and just add my objections to the page.
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: that's strange. Just a temporary glitch, perhaps?
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tantek sandeepshetty - ironically, from that perspective, 410 is preferable since it is simpler than 404 (which is complicated by the fact that it can be returned for many different reasons)
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tantek I don't think you're making an actual legitimate "worse is better" argument per the WP page.
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tommorris "accurate is better" ;)
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tantek Your argument seems to amount to "I don't want to implement"
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sandeepshetty from an implementation perspective.. 404 is very simple.. if it's not in your db just throw a 404... when you delete just delete the db row, don't maintain ulrs, etc
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tantek might as well tell people that you only want CRU not CRUD.
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tantek would you consider CRU better than CRUD?
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tommorris also, the correct layer for specifying whether or not resources are available is... HTTP
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tommorris basic WebArch
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tantek sandeepshetty - and implementation is 3rd priority after formats and protocols
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tantek because implementations have the greatest turnover = least priority
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tantek and have the least in common
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tommorris I'e been meaning to support some publishing workflow stuff - draft posts, deleted posts, scheduled posts.
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tommorris returning sensible HTTP codes would be part of that
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tantek much much much more important to keep the formats and protocols themselves simpler
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tantek sandeep a lot of the "keep implementations simpler" misconception is responsible for all the XML complexity crap that occurred in the late 1990s / early 2000s.
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tantek and why the XML crowd objected to and/or laughed at microformats
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sandeepshetty tantek: how so?
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tantek why would you want to deal with the complexity and mess of implementing HTML? XML is so much simpler!
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tantek so you're just repeating a 10+ year old mistake
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sandeepshetty I thought that had to do more with well-formed documents than anything else
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sandeepshetty HTML was very forgiving in those days
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sandeepshetty BTW, HTML and browsers are also good examples of the worse is better philoposhy
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tantek nothing is such an example in a vacuum
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tantek that's a huge misconception
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tantek "worse" is relative. without providing A and B, one of which is worse, you don't have an example.
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sandeepshetty I thought that was obvious:worse than well formed documents, previous hypertext systems where you could not have broken links, etc...
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tantek another principle in design that you might be missing is forgiveness - it's part of robustness
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aaronpk tommorris: for scheduled posts, would you return an HTTP code that says "come back in 2 days"? lol
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tantek aaronpk - code 288 - ok in the future
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: every time.. seems to be a DNS issue.. will look into it in a bit
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tantek the "don't treat 404 as a delete" is particularly important from a forgiveness perspective
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aaronpk 288? i haven't heard of that one before
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sandeepshetty tantek: by forgiveness, I'm guessing you mean be liberal in what you accept.. which is what I'm also proposing
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tantek since server error / misconception can cause it
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tantek "liberal in what you accept" is not generally applicable
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tommorris aaronpk: might do. ;)
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sandeepshetty I agree.... (looks for the post by tbray on that)
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tantek because deletes are destructive, you have to be conservative in what you accept for them
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tantek forgiveness is tied to user forgiveness
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tantek which is very much action specific
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aaronpk here's a somewhat common use case where 404=delete would cause a lot of harm -- your site is in front of a lod balancer or a proxy, and a misconfiguration in the proxy causes everything to return 404s. do you really want every site downstream to delete all your content?
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sandeepshetty but on the indieweb deletes are not really that destructive.. you can just resend the webmention
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sandeepshetty (that was for tantek)
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tantek.com edited /deleted (+26) "/* 404 Discussion */ or proxy" (view diff)
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aaronpk "you can just re-send" is actually going to require more implementation logic than just returning 410 in the first place
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tantek sandeepshetty - deletes are destructive in that the destination has removed the content (and potentially the proof that they got the webmention back in time when they did)
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tantek the time information (when they received the original webmention) may be particularly important
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tantek e.g. for ordering comments
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tantek threading
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tantek etc.
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tantek you can trust the time of when you received the webmention but you can't trust the asserted time the comment was written (dt-published)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: I don't. (re load balancer) but that would be a rare case and not always right after you sent the webmention
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sandeepshetty tantek: On the indieweb, I trust the published time...
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aaronpk tantek: that's actually an interesting point. right now i'm using dt-published when ordering and displaying content
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sandeepshetty you can see my recent mentions where mentions are sent afterwards
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tantek sandeepshetty - you must be new here :)
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sandeepshetty I've done that myself also when the server wasn't responding when I wanted to send it
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sandeepshetty tantek: I am :)
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tantek it won't be long til we scale to the point where dt-published errors are occuring (both accidentally e.g. timezone, and intentionally, wanting to comment in the past)
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aaronpk timezone errors will be the first thing that bites us
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tantek already has :)
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aaronpk you know... i should write up something about proper timezone handling
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tantek Will Norris had it happen at the camp
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aaronpk pretty sure not many of us are doing it right
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tantek same thing happened with Technorati indexing posts by claimed date vs. discovered/pinged date. fixed that pretty early on
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sandeepshetty I spent some time trying to do it right
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tantek the datetime of post thing will become an issue as we go from 10s of indieweb sites to 100s.
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tantek it's coming soon
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tantek.com edited /deleted-404-discussion (+244) "proxy misconfig too" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty I have the other date as well but when I'm presenting it on my site I prefer published when it's available
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tantek I'm going to skip trusting dt-published altogether when I start displaying others' comments
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tantek in terms of ordering
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aaronpk p.s. you may note that in the mf version of the IRC logs, timestamps are localized to the timezone of the person who spoke :) http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http%3A%2F%2Findiewebcamp.com%2Firc%2F2013-06-28%2Fline%2F1372418432
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tantek it will be by discovery (possible crawl in response to http referer), and webmention datetime
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tantek aaronpk - WHOA
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aaronpk I spend a lot of time thinking about timezones :)
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aaronpk it makes it so when you display the reply context to a line in IRC, the timezone shows up properly: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/28/2/indieweb
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tantek aaronpk - those aren't offsets!
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tantek you asked yesterday about h-card and timezones, I documented p-tz with an example and you chose to use it differently?
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tantek here: http://indiewebcamp.com/IRC-people
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aaronpk ah yea... tz is required to be a numeric offset?
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tantek yes
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tantek because you data can't depend on politics
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aaronpk turns out it's actually way easier to deal with (and more accurate) as a named zone since there's the whole tzdata
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tantek all the named timezone stuff is political
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sandeepshetty I just normalize them all to one timezone so that they timestamps are comparable on the post page
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tantek there's NEVER the "whole" tzdata
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tantek that's the problem
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tantek it changes in the future
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aaronpk given "-0700/-0800" how do I know which to use? my summer time rules are different from other zones
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tantek so from a storage format perspective, the only thing you can trust over time is offsets
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aaronpk that's true, but the other thing you can trust from a storage format perspective is the unix timestamp
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tantek summertime rules change in general - that's part of the problem
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aaronpk yes but they're all documented in tzdata
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tantek until politicians change them
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aaronpk and then they get documented again
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tantek they're not "all", just the laws passed so far
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tantek so that doesn't work for stable data / formats
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aaronpk so, the best solution would be to store the current numeric timezone offset for the user's IRC line at the time it is created
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aaronpk rather than figuring it out later
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aaronpk right now i'm storing unix time, then looking at the irc-people page for the offset/zone and localizing it when displayed
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tantek yes - best is to store the offset of the user's timezone at the time the IRC line is created
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tantek definitely not at display time!
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tantek the only TZ to use at display time is the user who is reading it
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tantek is *for the user
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sandeepshetty I do it while storing... convert everything to one timestamp... could there be problems with this approach?
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aaronpk are you storing the timezone offset?
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aaronpk or storing as unix time
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www.sandeep.io edited /deleted (+164) "/* Three Cases */ Answered "how is this an issue?"" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty mysql datetime
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aaronpk heh. what timezone is your server in?
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aaronpk mysql datetime is not very useful unless your server time and database time are set to UTC
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aaronpk otherwise you don't really know what it represents
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aaronpk postgres stores the timezone offset in the datetime column, it's nice
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erikmaarten the mysql timestamp converts time to UTC, in contrast to datetime, may be more useful
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: IIRC UTC
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: as long as you know for sure that both your system clock and the database clock are set to UTC you can safely use datetime in mysql
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aaronpk but then you should also store the timezone offset in a separate column so you can re-localize the timestamp when displaying it, or you can just display everything in UTC or your local time as long as it's denoted as such
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sandeepshetty added "should add timezone info to timestamps" on this todo
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aaronpk sandeepshetty: if you add your local timezone offset to your dates, it will show up properly in my reply context http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/24/2/indieweb
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aaronpk right now you're showing up as +0000
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sandeepshetty yeah I should look into this at some point... added a note
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aaronpk cool
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tantek aaronpk - sounds like you have material for a follow-up blog post to your one about relative times
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aaronpk heh
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: can't ping erikmaarten.com and traceroute says "traceroute: unknown host erikmaarten.com "
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: and I can see the A record "erikmaarten.com. 14367 IN A 143.95.33.86"
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EHLOVader http://isup.me/erikmaarten.com
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EHLOVader looks good from here, and there sandeepshetty
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sandeepshetty yeah it looks like it's just me.. just trying to figure out why and why only this site...
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: well that's quite curious. It's fine from here, and aaronpk was able to send a webmention just a while ago ...
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aaronpk internet storms
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erikmaarten are you using some particular dns server?
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sandeepshetty I could try sending the webmention which will be from my server as opposed to my local network.... but I'm curious to find out why it's down here
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erikmaarten perhaps PRISM is gobbling up the network packets without sending them on
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sandeepshetty any ideas for what I could to find out what's wrong?
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erikmaarten Well, you could try changing your dns server, just to make sure there's no problem there ...
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erikmaarten can you ping 143.95.33.86?
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sandeepshetty nope. can't ping that ip
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erikmaarten oh, perhaps you've already tried that
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erikmaarten ok
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: tarceroute shows me that it doesn't go beyond my ISP, must be a problem with them
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: strange though, if everything else works
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: sent you a webmention
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: thanks, got it! By the way, how do you handle info about the commenter? Store url, profile photo url, name etc in separate table?
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sandeepshetty for receiving I have a webmentions table that has cols for author_name, author_url and author_photo along with published date, type of mention (in-reply-to|repost|like|mention) and some other fields
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erikmaarten right, almost like my setup, except I put the author information in one table and the mention info in another
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aaronpk posting events on my site is making me want to be able to create private events and selectively give access to people if they've logged in with indieauth
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: you have a better design because it allows you to update the h-cards for all mentions from the same author
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tantek aaronpk - cool
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sandeepshetty erikmaarten: I'll revisit this when it becomes a problem for me... right now I want to ship and see what works and what doesn't.
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aaronpk also wondering how much DRY to violate by having a copy of events on my own site
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aaronpk for example, here's my RSVP to benwerd's event: http://aaronparecki.com/replies/2013/06/25/3/indiewebcamp but should I also post that as an event on my site?
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erikmaarten sandeepshetty: Yeah, that's probably about the only thing with my code that is good so far, I tend to want to test things out before setting things in stone too ...
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tantek aaronpk - I think it's fine to have the event embedded as part of the RSVP
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aaronpk and what about events like this? https://events.geoloqi.com/events/59 http://esridevelopersocial.eventbrite.com/ I consider the eventbrite links to be ephemeral. Should I make an event on my site for that which I then RSVP to?
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tantek and then maybe even have an "upcoming events" page
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tantek I've got the little module (now out of date) at the bottom of my home page for this
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aaronpk tantek: yea that's just the reply context, handled exactly the same way. I'm happy with the way my current RSVPs to werd.io are handled.
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tantek they have hCalendar, but it's not the canonical event page
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aaronpk I suppose I could always point back to the canonical event page with u-url even if I do have my own URL for the event
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tantek eventbrite links are for ticketing, they're not really permalinks
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tantek aaronpk - you're quickly going to run into the event consolidation problem: http://microformats.org/wiki/event-consolidation
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aaronpk that actually soundslike hosting my own h-event with u-url pointing to each other version of the event may help solve it
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aaronpk because then sending webmentions from my own RSVP url would go ping the other u-urls
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tantek yes, something worth exploring further now that we're starting to do federated events
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: DRY allows for duplication as long as there is only one authoritative source that lets you know when it's changed
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tantek sandeepshetty - not sure I agree with that. that's been used as an excuse by folks who put the one authoritative source in a database and then claim it's ok to have both HTML and RSS versions.
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tantek whereas in practice, their RSS versions break or become invalid or show bad content up to 2/3 of the time.
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tantek but I think I get at what you're saying - for this example. for visible events, where the "copies" visibly link to the original, it helps reduce DRY problems.
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sandeepshetty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_repeat_yourself (code generators are big with DRY enforces)
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tantek sandeepshetty - that's an older notion of DRY
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tantek the notion of DRY as we discuss it here (and have in microformats for years) is about DRY at the publishing level
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tantek the WP definition is good but insufficient for today's purposes
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sandeepshetty Your definition is what I know as http://c2.com/xp/OnceAndOnlyOnce.html
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/dry
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tantek nope, we're still talking about content/data, not code
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sandeepshetty is ashamed to say that he was into Agile (with a capital A) at one point
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tantek OnceAndOnlyOnce is more about code
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tantek agile has a lot of hype - it's natural for folks to try it out ;)
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tantek and there are some aspects of it that can be repurposed
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sandeepshetty I'm all for agile with a small a :)
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sandeepshetty tantek: this leads into the next questions perfectly.. I've been working on a uf2 based reader because I can't keep up with all the indiewebsites now
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sandeepshetty but after looking at the markup differences 4 sites makes me think that either h-feed is not clearly specified or no one follows it as specified..
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sandeepshetty s/4/of 4
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Loqi sandeepshetty meant to say: but after looking at the markup differences of 4 sites makes me think that either h-feed is not clearly specified or no one follows it as specified..
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tantek sandeepshetty - it's not clear what the exact use-cases are for h-feed
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tantek so basically, just grab the top level h-entry objects from a page, and you've got a feed
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sandeepshetty I think only aaronpk has a top level h-entry
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sandeepshetty http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://aaronparecki.com/notes
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tantek oh interesting, right, I have mine inside an h-feed
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sandeepshetty yeah http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com
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tantek I think just because I was *trying* to make h-feed work
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tantek in the old hAtom spec, we had the specified as the two possibilities
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tantek either look for a top level hfeed, and use its hentry's
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sandeepshetty barnabywalters has an h-feed as well : http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/
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tantek or if there's no hfeed, then just use top level hentry's on the page
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tantek so you could do that with h-feed and h-entry instead
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tantek that should work
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sandeepshetty also I want to generate atom from my uf2 but h-feed seems to be missing channel name (or whatever it's called in atom)
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sandeepshetty (feed title)
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tantek here you go sandeep - my braindump notes on h-feed, and my example in wild: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed
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tantek the "feed title" you can get from the p-name
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tantek see mine for an example
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tantek I'm just using my name as the name of the feed, but you can specify something different if you want
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sandeepshetty this is perfect.. I will have a feed per tag (channel) so I want to name them.
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sandeepshetty tantek: also I couldn't find dt-published for your h-entry
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tantek it's there
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tantek it uses the value class pattern
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tantek rather every h-entry has a dt-published
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sandeepshetty php-mf2 can't find it then? http://pin13.net/mf2/?url=http://tantek.com
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tantek I have no dt-published for my h-feed. that would be redundant (DRY violating) with the latest h-entry dt-published
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tantek sounds like an issue to file :)
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tantek <a href="2013/178/t1/surreal-meeting-dpdpdp-trondisc" rel="bookmark" class="dt-published published dt-updated updated u-url u-uid"><time class="value">10:17</time> on <time class="value">2013-06-27</time></a>
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tantek requires support of: http://microformats.org/wiki/value-class-pattern#Date_and_time_values
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sandeepshetty I was just looking at the mf2 output because that's what I'll be using and couldn't see it there.
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tantek which is required by http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#parsing_a_dt-_property
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tantek so there you go, that's enough info to file the issue
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sandeepshetty Don't thing the h-feed requires a dt-published :)
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sandeepshetty *think
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sandeepshetty filing it
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tantek thanks sandeep!
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sandeepshetty at this point it looks easier to use simplepie and just read atom/rss from everyone :)
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tantek assuming the feeds are correct :)
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sandeepshetty right :)
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aaronpk hfeed->rss converter for backwards compat with rss readers :)
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sandeepshetty that's the plan which is why I don't have rss/atom yet .. waiting on getting the h-feed right so that it can be converted to atom.. now with http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed it looks like I should have it ready by tomorrow :)
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tantek aaronpk, sandeepshetty - I noted your use-cases: http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Use_Cases
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tantek feel free to edit/clarify/add
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aaronpk ah cool
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tantek aaronpk is your original-post-discovery code separated out as a nice neat function?
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tantek (PHP)
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tantek you might have the only implementation, and it would be great if it was modularly shareable so others could re-use it
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sandeepshetty tantek: does the h-feed also need a fallback to rel="author" ?
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aaronpk hmm it isn't, but it wouldn't be too difficult for me to turn it into a module
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tantek sandeepshetty - already does by supporting /authorship
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/h-feed#Parsing
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sandeepshetty ah saw that.
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/authorship
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sandeepshetty !tell pfefferle: comments appearing on your site don't point to the original which makes it difficult to follow the thread: https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/#comments
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell them that when I see them next
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+45) "/* Determining */ use #s for steps, clarify rel-author use to go use the representative hCard of the destination page" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: thanks for that clarification...
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sandeepshetty it didn't make sense before that to me.. had asked about it a week ago
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tantek yes - sorry about that - I definitely braindumped that one quickly without all the details :)
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Loqi WITHOUT ALL THE DETAILS http://loqi.me/7Z1
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tantek barnaby's improvements seem interesting - I'll have to analyze those later to see if they work in the general case
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tantek so I've lost track of everyone who is receiving/displaying indieweb comments
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tantek automatically that is
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tantek so far there's only three on the wiki
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/comment-presentation#Current_Indiewebcamp_Practices
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aaronpk http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-implementations
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tantek that's code vs. sites
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aaronpk how so? each project is really just someone's site
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tantek because the emphasis on site leads to more examples being cited
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tantek whereas being project-centric deemphasizes the real world examples
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aaronpk my goal with the implementations page was to have an "at a glance" view of the state of everyone's site
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aaronpk it doesn't have to be project centric
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tantek e.g. the Wordpress row. just "yes" is useless there
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: wordpress is not someones site
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aaronpk take off wordpress then, I didn't add that
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sandeepshetty there are at least two people using WP
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tantek WP proves the problem with this focus
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tantek because there is no one WP
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aaronpk i'd be happy with switching the first column to each person's domain name
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tantek there's WP with various plugins
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aaronpk clearly listing the projects in the first column led everyone to the wrong conclusion about the page
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sandeepshetty we could as pfefferle to change that WP row to talk about his site instead
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aaronpk i was just getting tired of digging around all the various pages looking to see who implemented what
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Loqi AROUND ALL THE VARIOUS http://loqi.me/7Z2
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sandeepshetty *ask.. oh yeah we all have project names there :p
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aaronpk cause it's scattered around the project pages (/p3k /Falcon etc) and also the building block pages (/comment-presentation etc)
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tantek aaronpk - aha ok
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tantek aaronpk - yes, please switch the first column to site
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tantek and it's fine to have a second column with "what it's running" where project(s) can be listed/linked
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tantek.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+52) "link displaying comments to the specific section on indieweb implementations of comment presentation" (view diff)
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tantek and each column header in that table can link to the specific list of indieweb support for that thing (like what I just did with the "Displaying comments" column header)
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tantek also note that the table grows too wide and gets clipped by the wiki styling
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tantek our wiki is not really setup for wide tables like that
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tantek might need multiple tables
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tantek or minimizing the columns
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aaronpk hrm... side-scrolling should be a thing
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tantek like I'm not sure how useful "receiving comments" is as a separate column
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aaronpk it's also meant as a sort of checklist for individual implementors
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tantek well then it's too many purposes
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tantek checklist vs. summary/overview
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tantek that's quickly going to become unmanageable for one or the other
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aaronpk ok then let's figure it out
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aaronpk someone asks "what indieweb feature should I build next to interoperate better?"
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tantek your initial impulse of wanting a table for a usable overview is good
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tantek aaronpk - that's the point of IndieMark
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aaronpk let's tie IndieMark in with openbadges then :)
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tantek I don't think we need openbadges for this (though I know you meant :) )
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+17) "subheads in ideas section for easier expansion" (view diff)
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tantek feel free to add to the subsections in http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#idea_capture
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tantek especially: http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark#areas
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@benwerd Mozilla's released its social API to developers. I'll definitely be playing with this: http://techcrunch.com/2013/06/28/mozilla-opens-its-firefox-social-api-to-developers/ #indieweb
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aaronparecki.com edited /indieweb-implementations (+402) "domains instead of projects" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty aaronpk: now we need a new sort order for that page :)
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aaronpk lol true
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+440) "/* Level 1 */ some guiding ideas for Level 1" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: Was the and here meant to be an or? "if the h-entry has a p-author, use that and the representative h-card at the rel-author destination to determine the author of the post"
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+19) "oops, move rel-author details to proper step. fix and Undo revision 3820 by [[Special:Contributions/Tantek.com|Tantek.com]] ([[User talk:Tantek.com|talk]])" (view diff)
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tantek good catch sandeepshetty. thank you.
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+1464) "expand a bit more, inspired by all of the past week's developments" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (+409) "/* Working On */ after indieweb replies with webmention, next is rsvp posts, inspired by benwerd's progress with federated events" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: so it's basically 1) check for p-author in h-entry else 2) look for h-card with url+uid else 3) look for h-card with url + rel-me else 4) follow rel-author and repeat from step 2 there.
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tantek that's a reasonable summary
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tantek.com edited /Falcon (-1) "/* Working On */" (view diff)
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tantek the url+uid step has to be to the page itself - so that's unlikely to happen
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tantek in the p-author case
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tantek http://microformats.org/wiki/representative-hcard-parsing
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tantek rel-me is also unlikely
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+79) "/* Determining */ noting unlikeliness of representative hCard on a post permalink" (view diff)
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notizblog.org edited /indieweb-implementations (+104) (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: what does "whose value is the url of the page (source)" mean here: "The first hCard found which has a "url" property whose value is the url of the page (source) and is also a "uid" property for the hCard, is the representative hCard for the page."
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tantek the url of the page that you're parsing
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sandeepshetty that I'm lost about ths whole uri_uid step
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+42) "/* Level 2 */ reply context" (view diff)
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tantek sandeep you're thinking too hard about it - the page itself has URL
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tantek "url" + "uid" are properties of the hCard
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tantek if all three match - then that step works
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sandeepshetty match what?
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sandeepshetty you mean they all need to be the same?
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+48) "/* Level 3 */ CRUD" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty how is the page url the same as the uid?
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sandeepshetty Maybe I should read it again a couple of times :)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+143) "/* Level 4 */ require all previous level optional stuff" (view diff)
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tantek yes, match = all three the same
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tantek sorry I should probably rewrite that prose for representative hCard
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+42) "/* Level 2 */ other types of replies" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+78) "/* Level 3 */ more types of replies to receive and display" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+58) "/* Level 4 */ receiving/displaying multiple types of comments/replies" (view diff)
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sandeepshetty tantek: so it's basically this then: 1) check for p-author in h-entry else 2) follow rel-author, 2a) look for h-card with url+uid that points to the rel-author link else 2b) look for h-card with url + rel-me
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+386) "/* Level 4 */ perhaps full comment posting/receiving CRUD is the key to level 4" (view diff)
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aaronpk why are there levels 1, 2, 3, etc if it's not supposed to be a rank?
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tantek aaronpk - it's not *only* a rank
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tantek think in 2+ dimensions. rank is only 1 dimension
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werd.io edited /indieweb-implementations (+292) (view diff)
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tantek arronpk - like this: http://rng.io/
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werd.io edited /indieweb-implementations (+9) (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+144) "/* FAQ */ add subhead permalink, link, A2" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /IndieMark (+1) "/* Not just a rank */" (view diff)
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tantek ok I'm off for a bit. hoping to somehow get indieweb replies with webmentions working today. we'll see.
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sandeepshetty !tell tantek: Let me know if this authorship algo makes sense (I'm looking at fixing my current authorship code and it helps me understand how to markup my site): 1) check for p-author in h-entry else 2) follow rel-author, 2a) look for h-card with url+uid that points to the rel-author link else 2b) look for h-card with url + rel-me
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Loqi Ok, I'll tell him that when I see him next
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www.marcus-povey.co.uk edited /2013/UK (+346) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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Loqi pfefferle: sandeepshetty left you a message 1 hour, 43 minutes ago: comments appearing on your site don't point to the original which makes it difficult to follow the thread: https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/#comments
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pfefferle sandeepshetty yes, removed because i thought is was a bug
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pfefferle will re-add it
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pfefferle thanks
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@Superglufon RT @t: federated #indieweb comments, likes, event + RSVPs demo by @benwerd:
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@nchenga is there a POSSE (Publish on own site, syndicate everywhere) plugin for Twitter and a self-hosted #Wordpress? http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE
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@wavis RT @datacosmos: #dataecosystems #indiewebcamp Mycelial networks of autonomous nodes will replace the skyscraper models of today.
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: replies are not showing up on the comment permalink page: https://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/?replytocom=214583 (it's there on the main thread: http://notizblog.org/replies/converspace-activity-syntax/)
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sandeepshetty pfefferle: should I file a bug?
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: yes, if you open a comment, then the context is missing
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pfefferle yes, it would be nice if you could also report your ideas or mentions or critic!
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@pfefferle @nchenga btw. you can find a list of wordpress plugins here http://indiewebcamp.com/WordPress
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Loqi tantek: sandeepshetty left you a message 2 hours, 11 minutes ago: Let me know if this authorship algo makes sense (I'm looking at fixing my current authorship code and it helps me understand how to markup my site): 1) check for p-author in h-entry else 2) follow rel-author, 2a) look for h-card with url+uid that points to the rel-author link else 2b) look for h-card with url + rel-me
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lionzan.me edited /2013/UK (+528) "/* RSVP */" (view diff)
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pfefferle sandeepshetty: thanks :)
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@xtof_fr #repos et #sommeil. Prochaine fête #indieweb 2013-07-10
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sandeepshetty wow, it's interesting that PuSH 0.4 does not specify the way to ping a hub about new content.... changing a hub now might involve re-integration.
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tantek sandeepshetty - that sounds like a good iteration/simplification
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sandeepshetty tantek: If I understand it correctly you can take out the representative card step for the post permalink page (like you've noted)
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tantek yes
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tantek editing now
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sandeepshetty (Y)
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ozten spent the day steeping in camlistore
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tantek.com edited /authorship (+591) "/* Determining */ simplify authorship algorithm based on suggestions from sandeepshetty, incorporate inline the representative h-card steps. note limitations and encouragement of implementation heuristics documentation" (view diff)
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@sandeepshetty #webmention forces implementations to treat #comments as first-class content by giving them permalinks... http://www.sandeep.io/96 #indieweb