#indiewebcamp 2013-05-28

2013-05-28 UTC
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aaronpk bnvk: are you and barnaby going to be in iceland still on june 15th?
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bnvk aaronpk: yessir! :)
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aaronpk hmmmmmmm
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bnvk ?
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aaronpk I might try to stop there on the way back from london!
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bnvk Oh, excellent. Please do!
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bnvk I might still have my apartment then which has a spare bed in the living room
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aaronpk what airport would I fly in on?
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bnvk Keflavik
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bnvk Wow Airlines seems to have the cheapest rates from LDN
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aaronpk cool. well i'm still figuring out the details of this trip, but would be awesome to stop through iceland on the way home to see you guys!
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aaronpk I fly over it all the time, would be nice to actually land!
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bnvk Yah. It would be swell. Keep me posted
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bnvk I'm heading to bed
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aaronpk night!
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aaronparecki.com edited /p3k (+117) "finished commenting!" (view diff)
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bre.tc edited /User:Bre.tc () "(-1106) I want to re-write what I had written before. Here is some placeholder content." (view diff)
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bret yikes, those go to IRC
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bret even for me
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@xtof_fr "Identi.ca conversion to pump.io"
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@eschnou @xtof_fr Pas un silo, c'est open-source et fédéré via la spec Ostatus, c'est du #fsw au lieux de l'#indieweb :-) #microcast
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xtof FYI leading #withings to aaronpk translation - Feel at ease aaron to interact or refactor in english directly in the sister-page http://christopheducamp.com/w/Minh_Lê or original
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michielbdejong eschnou: http://eschnou.com/entry/what-the-hell-happened-to-federated-social-networks-62-24936.html great read!
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michielbdejong you linked to #indieweb but i finally worked out you meant this channel - i put a redirect in the topic of the other one
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eschnou michielbdejong, thanks and welcome on the #indiewebcamp channel. Indeed, I often forget about the camp part of this thing :-)
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barnabywalters michielbdejong: welcome! oh great idea redirecting from #indieweb, thanks
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michielbdejong thanks! i decided i'm founding a non-profit hosting company, aimed at "indie web style" hosting. so i came here to learn a bit :)
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barnabywalters non profit hosting, fascinating idea
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tommorris non-profit hosting sounds like a great idea
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tommorris especially if it is combined with long-term archiving
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pdurbin michielbdejong: now I remember you... https://unhosted.org/people/ :)
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michielbdejong oh i hadn't really thought of the long-term archiving part so much
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michielbdejong pdurbin: yeah, that's what i've been working on :)
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barnabywalters michielbdejong: ah, you‘re behind unhosted.org — great stuff, I need to catch up reading that
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michielbdejong yeah, it's still hard to get it off the ground though.
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michielbdejong and people in real life ask me "so you've been working on this thing for three years... can i use it?"
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michielbdejong so now i want to build something that people can easily sign up for and use :)
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michielbdejong meaning i have to become a hosting provider instead of just writing blog posts, api specs, and demo apps
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eschnou michielbdejong, I see the headline: 'The guy behind unhosted is starting.. a hosting company." :-)
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michielbdejong :D
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pdurbin heh
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cweiske muhahaha
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Loqi hehe
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eschnou Loqi, since when are robots having a sense of humor?
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eschnou michielbdejong, more seriously, I've been thinking of resuming storytlr.com with a paid plan, but when I see how cheap other platforms are providing it for, I gave up. Margins in hosting are so low.
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eschnou Storytlr for $5/month here: http://www.site5.com/p/storytlr/
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michielbdejong i would offer everything for free, except domain name registration.
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cweiske where do you make money?
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michielbdejong from donations
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michielbdejong i think the running costs can be quite low
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eschnou michielbdejong, the big costs is in the labor hours for running the ops part
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eschnou support, etc...
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michielbdejong yeah, so we're going to do it with a small team, here in Berlin. maybe two or three people.
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michielbdejong life is cheap here
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michielbdejong and if traffic grows then that's always monetizable in some non-evil way (like Firefox default search engine)
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michielbdejong one problem is that to connect with Google and Facebook chat, you need people's real passwords afaik. you can't access those with OAuth tokens.
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michielbdejong so we'll just have to store those carefully, then. basically building a hosted xmpp client.
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pdurbin does it matter if Google drops XMPP support from gtalk?
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michielbdejong pdurbin: they dropped federation, not client-to-server afaik? i could be wrong though
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pdurbin With Hangouts, Singhal says Google had to make the difficult decision to drop the very "open" XMPP standard that it helped pioneer. -- http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/15/4318830/inside-hangouts-googles-big-fix-for-its-messaging-mess
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pdurbin that's all I know
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michielbdejong right, if they make gtalk entirely end-of-life in favor of hangouts, and they don't provide an api for hangouts, then there's not much we can do. but until then, i think gtalk is just like Facebook chat: a closed garden, but with an xmpp interface.
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pdurbin sure. last I knew Google re-enabled XMPP federation though. it's hard to keep up on all the changes
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@hugoroyd 2013-04-19: the day the indieweb successfully federated a comment post. https://plus.google.com/107220755397307046552/posts/NrMJSBA9kHJ
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@unhosted RT @hugoroyd: 2013-04-19: the day the indieweb successfully federated a comment post. https://plus.google.com/107220755397307046552/posts/NrMJSBA9kHJ
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tantek welcome michielbdejong! and a non-profit hosting company sounds like a great idea to pursue.
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michielbdejong tantek: thank you!
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@riduidel Eh mais ... mais ... c'est plein de bonnes idées ! http://indiewebcamp.com/Storytlr
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tantek take a look at: http://indiewebcamp.com/business-models and please feel free to add a non-profit section!
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michielbdejong yes, i was reading that
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michielbdejong will try to get something running first :)
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tantek it's ok to dump your brainstorming in there too - a lot of what we wrote up there is both documentation of existing business-models and brainstorming about what may be possible
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michielbdejong ok! that i have :) i'll add my ideas at some point
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tantek I forget if we discussed this article here before or not: http://www.dailydot.com/business/origin-tumblr-anarchaia-projectionist-david-karp/
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tantek it has some interesting screenshots and analyses in terms of composite feed views
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tantek different types of posts all in one update stream
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tantek do we have page about composite feed/update design?
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tantek and who else here has a composite feed on their home page besides me and tommorris?
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barnabywalters eschnou
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tantek ok three examples is enough to start a wiki page on it
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aaronpk i *want* a composite feed, does that count?
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tantek aaronpk - sounds like an itch :)
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aaronpk actually technically I have a feed of articles and notes for my tags: http://aaronparecki.com/tag/indieweb
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barnabywalters when I have a feed on my homepage it will be a composite one
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barnabywalters maybe
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tantek interesting. when I added my second post type (articles), it was very important to me to immediately include it in a composite feed along with my notes on my home page.
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barnabywalters and I used to have one, of a sort (activities) which was just DRY-violating repetition
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tantek ok I'm going to edit the feed article to distinguish home page feeds vs. old-style XML feeds.
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tantek (since the latter are dying)
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tantek is having a terminology problem.
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tantek composite | heterogeneous ?
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tantek stream | feed | updates ?
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tantek can't remember if we named this thing already or not.
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barnabywalters composite feed
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barnabywalters stream = too tied to a technology
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barnabywalters updates = too confusing
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barnabywalters heterogeneous = too tricky to type ;)
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tantek barnabywalters - but doesn't "feed" imply too much XML-ness?
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tantek do you think we can successfully re-appropriate feed to be HTML-inclusive and then HTML-preferred?
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barnabywalters perhaps. not in my mind
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tantek interesting
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tantek which technology is "stream" too tied to?
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barnabywalters streaming of data
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tantek like realtime streaming?
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barnabywalters which, hm, might not be too much of a problem
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barnabywalters I associate streams with very low level stuff
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barnabywalters but that may not be representative
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tantek because ActivityStreams uses "stream" in the manner we're thinking of
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barnabywalters and never particularly took off
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barnabywalters how about we look at services which implement these composite feeds and see what they call them
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barnabywalters facebook has timeline
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barnabywalters fascinating, twitter refer to it as a timeline too https://support.twitter.com/groups/54-mobile-apps/topics/222-ios/articles/20169500-getting-started-with-twitter-for-iphone#home
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barnabywalters although twitter is not really composite
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aaronpk as twitter turns more into a link sharing platform and showing twitter card content preview, it is almost composite
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barnabywalters hm, I only just noticed that domain/help seems to have become the web equivalent of -h
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barnabywalters even if it redirects elsewhere
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tantek aaronpk - no - twitter is nowhere near composite because of the simple problem that you have to click to see anything other than text
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aaronpk that's why I said *almost* composite
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tantek expanding cards/previews is not even almost composite, it's just a hack
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barnabywalters actually facebook are changing from timeline to “news feed” https://www.facebook.com/help/327131014036297/
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tantek in fact, I find it pretty annoying from a UI perspective
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aaronpk i agree, i can't tell where to click to open and close it
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tantek barnabywalters - you mean changing *back*? It was "news feed" originally.
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tantek when it was introduced (and everyone freaked out because all of a sudden passively public information / updates were placed actively front and center)
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barnabywalters actually I think they’re mixing up news feed and timeline
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barnabywalters using both
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barnabywalters timeline is yours, news feed is what you see
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tantek they've been mixing for a while
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aaronpk timeline sounds nice
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aaronpk feed always has negative connotations to me
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tantek like zombies?
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tantek feed also feels like a dated term, carrying the baggage of RSS/Atom wars past.
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aaronpk no, this: http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loj43ynRdR1qgeclyo1_400.jpg
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tantek oh look a terminal tumblr link :P
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tantek here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed_%28Anderson_novel%29
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aaronpk oh hah! didn't even notice
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aaronpk much better
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tantek idea: clone tumblr into an archive at deadlr.com
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aaronpk lol
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aaronpk that sounds non-trivial
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tantek you could do it on demand
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tantek consider it a tumblr only view of i-a
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aaronpk ah!
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tantek aaronpk - that book summary is hilarious! how have we never come across this before? it's over 10 years old!
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tantek "The corporations responsible for the Feed have an immense power in this future America"
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tantek umm
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tantek future?
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aaronpk written in 2002
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aaronpk before facebook (!)
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tantek wonders if Zuck read it.
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aaronpk it's a good read, finally finished it a couple months ago
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aaronpk it's technically young adult fiction, but still is fun
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tantek worth reading then? perhaps as inspiration for what indieweb structures we can build to avoid such a centralized feedpocalypse?
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aaronpk feedpocalypse is a good term for it
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hober tantek: oh, i've read that
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tantek hober - and what did you think of it?
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tantek timeline feels a bit presentation specific
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tantek compared to stream
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tantek also timeline sounds singular time-axis specific - whereas we could stream all sorts of things besides strict timelines
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tantek or a stream might not guarantee strict in-order time-ness
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tantek e.g. a stream of tag results
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tantek possibly aggregated from multiple sources
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aaronpk i'm curious to hear who actually publishes things not time-ordered
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tantek (with different latencies - some might be polling behind the scenes)
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tantek aaronpk - most high performance streams eventually hit a point where they're mostly time-ordered, but not fully
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tantek firehose etc.
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aaronpk yes, are you thinking forward to aggregating across multiple indieweb sites? because I don't think anybody's individual site will be that high volume
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tantek and yeah - as someone who's based their storage model on a strictly time-ordered stream - I get that
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tantek right
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tantek and I want the notion of stream to encompass both
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tantek an individuals home page stream
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tantek and an aggregate stream view
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Loqi gives tantek the notion of stream to encompass both
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tantek Thanks Loqi :P
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Loqi you're welcome
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aaronpk so here's a question
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tantek FWIW I'm using class="stream" for the stuff on my home page
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tantek (happen to be, since I first set it up in 2010)
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aaronpk i'm thinking about publishing my sleep logs along with a bunch of stuff documented here http://indiewebcamp.com/p3k#Publishing_.22passive.22_or_.22consumptive.22_content
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tantek long permalink is long
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aaronpk but i get my data in batches when I sync the device, not in real time
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tantek and escaped characters hurt permalink readability :P
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tantek aaronpk - yeah - good example of possibly out-of-order posts
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aaronpk so it's entirely possible that I will have published one or more notes or other content before my sleep logs come in
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aaronpk so do I add stuff to my stream before the latest post?
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aaronpk and have a separate "changelog" stream clients can use to find new data (like the flickr API)
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tantek aaronpk - that's what my setup would do - the home page stream is just a view of what's the most recent n things in storage
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tantek why bother with a changelog API until there's a need?
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aaronpk well yes, but in theory
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aaronpk it will happen as soon as someone makes a "feed reader"
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tantek I don't think that's needed
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tantek just like existing feed readers work without it
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tantek (a changelog API)
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aaronpk maybe
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tantek they just read the feed and look for diffs compared to the previous retrieval of the feed
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tantek not maybe. definitely. that's how they work today.
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aaronpk I make extensive use of it in the flickr API
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tantek ergo, no changelog API needed.
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aaronpk because if I change something in the past that isn't in the top N posts, I want to be notified about it
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tantek that's a different use-case than a feed reader
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tantek and aggregating recent updates from your friends
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tantek *why* do you want to be notified? what's the user flow?
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aaronpk what about edits to posts and deleting posts?
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aaronpk if I delete a post, shouhld the delete propagate?
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aaronpk it does on twitter
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tantek edits to posts are conveyed via dt-updated
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tantek aaronpk - how does it propagate on Twitter?
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tantek worth documenting
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aaronpk twitter sends a "delete" event
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tantek sounds like a stream item "delete" with direct object permalink of the thing that was deleted
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tantek no big deal
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aaronpk that would work
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tantek my guess is AS already has a "delete" verb
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hober tantek: (sorry for the delay) I think I would have enjoyed it more had I read it when I was younger. That said, it was enjoyable
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tantek ok - so it sounds like a quick light read
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tantek ok based on suggestions/discussions above I'm going with "stream" as the visible/HTML-centric realtime replacement for "feed" - any objections?
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tantek.com edited /feed (+1493) "start shifting away from XML stuff and encouraging HTML-markup-only feeds and streams, also, Feedpocalypse" (view diff)
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tantek.com created /composite_stream (+991) "stub with existing examples, article" (view diff)
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tantek and there we go
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/stream
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tantek hmm - seeing some server responsiveness problems - aaronpk?
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tantek hiccup gone apparently
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tantek http://indiewebcamp.com/composite_stream
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tantek.com edited /composite_stream (+223) "/* Articles */ worth further analysis" (view diff)
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@IndieWebRecords Le meilleur hashtag pour les émissions á venir de @IndieWebRecordings ? #IndieWeb #IWR #IndieWebRec ...
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@SergioLuque Le meilleur hashtag pour les émissions á venir de Indie Web Recordings ? #IndieWeb #IWR #IndieWebRec ...
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@Valentino_Radio RT @SergioLuque: Le meilleur hashtag pour les émissions á venir de Indie Web Recordings ? #IndieWeb #IWR #IndieWebRec ...
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Loqi [mention] http://waterpigs.co.uk/notes/1465/ linked to http://indiewebcamp.com/2013 (pingback)
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@stein2 RT @hugoroyd: 2013-04-19: the day the indieweb successfully federated a comment post. https://plus.google.com/107220755397307046552/posts/NrMJSBA9kHJ
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tantek.com edited /business-models (+451) "/* Application Hosting Services */ add Ning and BandPage with realworld example shown at SFMusicTech, also note cwilso wordpress example and example incremental add-on" (view diff)
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@eschnou @riduidel Merciiii! Fais moi signe si questions/feedback. Code source ici: https://github.com/storytlr/storytlr #storytlr #indiewebcamp
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tantek anyone here familiar with Stipple? https://stipple.com/
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tantek they claim they have a way of tagging photos and adding other "metadata" to photos such that the tags etc. propagate to wherever you shared it (Twitter, Flickr, FB)
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tantek (here at SFMusicTech XIII)
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b0bg0d @tantek — i met w/ the team once when i was angel investing
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tantek if what they're saying is true (about propagating the tags with images etc.) then it could be interesting to document how they do so for POSSE reasons.
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barnabywalters hm, I think brennan might have shown me that (or something similar) a week or so ago — he was annotating a panorama with it
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tantek barnabywalters - any idea what format it stores the annotations?
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barnabywalters not a clue
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barnabywalters has anyone here used the nike+ API?
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aaronpk just got my + band today!
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aaronpk the API doesn't exactly exist right now
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barnabywalters weird, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen people using it
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barnabywalters I asked because from their code samples it looked like it was a really well designed hypermedia API, and as the docs aren’t publicly available I wondered if anyone here had access
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barnabywalters s/their/some random person on twitter
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Loqi barnabywalters meant to say: I asked because from some random person on twitter code samples it looked like it was a really well designed hypermedia API, and as the docs aren’t publicly available I wondered if anyone here had access
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tantek the Nike+ API did exist but is being upgraded I think
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tantek so lots of things broke
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tantek see: http://eagerfeet.org/
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tantek http://developer.nike.com/
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tantek so I just logged into that - and tried the API Console and it worked to give me my data
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tantek interesting, all their docs require login to view
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barnabywalters yep :(
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tantek barnabywalters - but it's free to create an account
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tantek I'm happy to share info about the API
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barnabywalters ah, I assumed you had to actually buy the device to make an account
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tantek barnabywalters - free iOS app download
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tantek works fine on my iPod
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tantek no extra hardware needed
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barnabywalters ah, that was not very clear from their site — thanks
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aaronpk there's a nike+ incubator in portland through techstars
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aaronpk i'm talking about the fuelband API though, maybe the API for the other stuff has been up longer
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tantek see also PHP open source: http://nikeplusphp.org/
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tantek barnabywalters - does that answer your Nike+ questions?
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tantek if not - could you add more to the page? http://indiewebcamp.com/Nike%2B
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tantek.com edited /Nike+ (+265) "more API details - deeper links" (view diff)
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tantek aaronpk - re: the API doesn't exactly exist right now - not true per http://indiewebcamp.com/Nike%2B#API - note live API Console - I tried it out and it worked to return my recent running data in JSON
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barnabywalters tantek: looks good
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tantek barnabywalters I'm guessing you can make good use of http://nikeplusphp.org/
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tantek rather, http://indiewebcamp.com/Nike+#Nike.2BPHP :)
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barnabywalters tantek: maybe — I tend to prefer to just use Guzzle (generic HTTP client) so I can test it really easily
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tantek sure
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tantek anyway - evaluate Nike+PHP and feel free to add commentary with your opinions so we can all benefit from your judgment :) http://indiewebcamp.com/Nike+#Nike.2BPHP
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waterpigs.co.uk edited /Nike+ (+120) "/* API */ mentioned download app to get an account" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - no android app?
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tantek http://nikeplus.nike.com/plus/products/gps_app/
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barnabywalters corrected :)
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tantek.com edited /Nike+ (+198) "add direct Android app link, make it a list for easier skimming" (view diff)
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tantek.com edited /Nike+ (+140) "there's a join button on the Nike+ home page" (view diff)
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tantek barnabywalters - try just clicking the JOIN NIKE button: http://nikeplus.nike.com/plus/
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tantek (top right next to LOG IN)
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tantek I'm assuming that works
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tantek hence I added it to the wiki
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tantek.com edited /Nike+ (+1) "indent" (view diff)
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tantek enjoy you passive data nerds - looking forward to seeing what you get working on your own sites :)
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bret XD